//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1100)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Good morning, members of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.I am very proud to appear before you to present Motion M-124, which I had the opportunity and the privilege to introduce and debate in the House of Commons on November 9, 2017. It was put to a vote on January 29, 2018, and adopted unanimously on January 31, 2018. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the members of the House of Commons, both those in the government and in the opposition parties, for supporting this motion.Today, I am asking you to undertake a study to determine the feasibility of equipping emergency vehicles across Canada with automated external defibrillators (AEDs) and to ensure that the necessary measures be taken following discussions with the other levels of government, the municipalities and organizations concerned, with due regard for their respective jurisdictions.Every year, there are some 40,000 sudden cardiac arrests. When such events take place, every second counts. For every minute that passes, a cardiac arrest victim's chances of survival decrease by 7 to 10%. In 85% of cases, cardiac arrest occurs outside hospital, usually in private residences, with no AED nearby.That, unfortunately, was what happened to Michel Picard, a resident of Victoriaville in my constituency. On December 30, 2017, Mr. Picard collapsed at his home, in front of his family, without warning. He had suffered a life-threatening arrhythmia. Happily, emergency services were contacted immediately. During the six minutes it took emergency services to get there, Mr. Picard's son-in-law, Steve Houle, administered first aid in the form of external cardiac massage. This procedure increased the victim's chances of survival until the paramedics arrived with a defibrillator and administered three shocks. Fortunately, Mr. Picard regained consciousness and is today considered a miraculous survivor since he has no lasting effects from the incident. This outcome was made possible by the rapid response of paramedics. In a cardiac arrest, external cardiac massage helps keep blood and oxygen circulating in the victim's body. However, a person cannot be resuscitated with cardiac massage alone; a defibrillator is essential to stop the arrhythmia and allow the heart to return to its normal state.AEDs increase the chances of survival by 75%. That is why it is so important to have access to a defibrillator.What would have happened to Mr. Picard if the first responders had been firefighters or police officers who do not have AEDs in their vehicles?Regrettably, less than 5% of people who suffer a heart attack outside hospital survive. In an emergency, police officers or firefighters are often first on the scene, because of their proximity, even before paramedics. They are trained to administer first aid until paramedics arrive. If their vehicles were all equipped with AEDs, response time would be much shorter, and more lives would be saved.In Quebec, some effort is being made in this area. The Sûreté du Québec has implemented a pilot project to put AEDs in all of its vehicles. There are also AEDs in some fire trucks and some public places. In fact, that saved the life of my friend Stéphane Campagna. While playing hockey with some friends in Victoriaville, he suffered a cardiac arrest in the arena. Fortunately, thanks to the contribution of some proactive business people, there was an AED in the arena. Thanks to that device and the cool-headedness of Marcel Duquette, Jean-François Gagné and Francis Garneau, Stéphane was resuscitated. The three men raced over to assist him and saved his life with the defibrillator, which was close at hand.A number of police services have AEDs in their vehicles. Unfortunately, coverage is not uniform and comprehensive. Some areas still have not started making these life-saving devices available. When I was mayor of Victoriaville, my team and I made sure, given what happened to my friend Stéphane, that every municipal building, sports facility and emergency response vehicle was equipped with a defibrillator. Furthermore, during the Souper du maire, a call went out to the people of the business community to ask them to purchase these devices themselves. In the two or three weeks that followed, more than a hundred businesses had gotten defibrillators. (1105)The AED is an essential device for saving lives. Like most citizens, I want to know that my children, my family, my friends and all of our fellow citizens are safe, no matter where there are. I want to know that even if they are farther from a hospital, they are safe because emergency vehicles and public places are equipped with AEDs. All Canadians deserve the same chance, the same level of safety, no matter where they decide to live, in the city or in the country. Every person should have an equal chance of survival, and no one should be penalized for the location they chose to raise their family.Someone suffers a heart attack every 12 minutes. It is a fact that the farther that person is from a hospital, the lower his or her chances of survival are. Why is that? Because the chances of survival are just about zero when a cardiac arrest victim gets to hospital; it is already too late. For the victim to have a better chance of survival, without aftereffects, an AED must be used as soon as possible.As I stated previously, for every minute that passes, the chances of survival are 7% to 10% lower. We have no more than 10 minutes to save the victim, hence the urgent need to equip all emergency vehicles in Canada with defibrillators. Fortunately, AEDs are easy to use. No training is needed to use one. Every AED has an on-board feature that describes each step in its operation, and the device decides on the strength of the shock to be administered. It is impossible to injure someone by mistake with a defibrillator, since only a person in cardiac arrest will receive a shock.So, in my view, only one conclusion is possible: Having more AEDs available will save more lives every year. We can substantially increase the number of survivors by equipping emergency vehicles with AEDs.The concern that many people have about equipping every emergency vehicle with an AED is, of course, the cost. But that small device is less expensive than you might think. On average, an AED costs between $1,000 and $2,000. That is a pittance in comparison with the value of the lives saved.There is no doubt in my mind that AEDs are absolutely necessary to save the lives of our fellow citizens. AEDs clearly have a very important role to play in helping people survive a heart attack. They can save hundreds or even thousands of lives every year. That is a statistic we cannot ignore.I am confident that with your study and the recommendations it will produce, the outcome will be positive. More Canadians will be able to live safely and with peace of mind; more first responders will be able to take concrete action in the event of a cardiac arrest; and of course, more lives will be saved every year. This is a concrete solution that can help increase people's chances of survival.Consequently, I am asking you specifically to include not just RCMP vehicles but all emergency vehicles in the study.I hope that we will be able to save lives by carrying out this study. That is my profound hope, and I offer you my full support. Thank you.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]Excuse me, can you repeat the question, while I fix the device?PeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]Equipping all emergency vehicles with defibrillators is important, simply because, in many places, the paramedics aren't the first ones to arrive on the scene in situations of cardiac arrest. In my friend's case, there was a defibrillator in the arena. However, we can assume that police officers are often the first to arrive on the scene when people are located slightly further away from hospitals or from the paramedics' stations, for example, in the countryside.If we made an effort to study how we could support all the safety agencies across Canada, we could save more lives. Furthermore, I even think that it would be timely to ask ourselves if we should include volunteer groups. Some communities call on volunteers to respond to emergencies. Take indigenous peoples and First Nations, for example. I didn't check, but I'm not sure that all of their vehicles are equipped with defibrillators. We could do something to that end.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]Yes. you can have that type of device, but, because the technology has advanced, there are now devices that are much smaller. Some are also portable. I even know someone who bought one for himself and keeps it in his car or in his house. Given the current competition in manufacturing the products, a device of that kind costs about $1,000. The device is not very big and it can be easily carried around by anyone who wants to buy one. It measures about 1 foot by 1 foot. It looks like the devices that usually hang on walls. DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]It is not complicated: without a defibrillator nearby, if you are not in a hospital, or somewhere with a defibrillator, such as a municipal or government building, your chances of survival are practically nil.Even when there is a defibrillator in a building, the problem is knowing where it is. That is quite the challenge. When I was mayor, we had a situation just like that. After installing the defibrillators, we had to put signage in place to make sure that they were readily accessible. For example, if someone had a heart attack in the committee room we are now in, I am not even sure if I would know where to find a defibrillator so that I could respond quickly and come to the assistance of the person in distress. That is an additional challenge that we will also have to address.In the motion I am tabling today, the priority is to equip all the vehicles we have. It is very simple: the chances of survival go down 10% per minute. You can look at the statistics to see the average time taken for an ambulance to get to the scene of an incident. I am not sure of the exact figure, but if the average is six minutes, it means that the person has a 40% chance of survival left. The longer it takes, the more permanent the consequences are likely to be.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]Yes, exactly. It is more than significant. It is a question of survival for a lot of people. DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]For the most part, first responders are already trained. They are professionals, so would they need a little extra training? In my opinion, it could be quite quick.I can tell you that, from my own personal experience, it is quite a simple exercise. We even established first responder training for people with a handicap or a challenge. A 10-year-old child can go through the drill; you just have to take the device, open it and put it on the patient's chest. The device gives you all the information you need and tells you what to do.I invite you to ask someone to come to give you a demonstration. It would be a very good idea for an expert to come and show committee members how the device works. You would see that it is something quite simple.Before anyone asks, I have calculated how much it would cost. According to my data, which perhaps are not the most up-to-date, it would cost $8 million at most to equip all emergency vehicles and finish the work started by a number of services across the country. When I look at the budget of the federal government, I do not consider that to be an astronomical expense.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]Yes, exactly.I would not say that the RCMP has not started the process. According to my data, some divisions in some areas, in British Columbia, for example, have already begun to equip their vehicles with defibrillators. The same goes for the Sûreté du Québec. I can also tell you that a number of municipal forces have begun the process.I assume that, if everyone had not begun the process in 2018, it must have been for budgetary reasons. Today, I do not see why all emergency vehicles have not been equipped with defibrillators. This shows how important it is for your committee to conduct a little more exhaustive study of the situation, to do the necessary assessments, and then to submit its recommendations.I must emphasize one thing in regard to this motion. I have separated it into two distinct stages, because I really wanted it to be passed. I feel that jurisdictions have to be respected, but, once the analysis is done, nothing is preventing the government from coming to an agreement with the provinces, the territories, the First Nations and the municipalities to determine the best way to provide the necessary financial resources, if that is the obstacle in the way of the project.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]Yes. I even go further. I must point out that my motion is not simply about the police, but about all emergency vehicles. I feel that firefighters should be included. It might even be worthwhile to look at volunteer emergency vehicles. We know that some communities have an emergency system that relies on volunteers. If we do this exercise, we could increase manyfold the number of people who could provide first aid when unfortunate incidents occur.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]Exactly.Basically, it would not be right for me to make a motion that involves all other jurisdictions. So, for this motion, I focused on the RCMP. I have to tell you that Ralph Goodale, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, introduced a similar project in 2013. I used it as a model, but I did not want to limit myself to the RCMP.I come from Quebec, as you know. In Quebec, we do not have RCMP officers, but we have other police forces. In my view, the exercise must be done for all Canadians. We represent all Canadians, in all parts of the country. It would not be right for me to have introduced a motion asking the committee to do work and come up with recommendations that left part of Canada's population unassisted.I defer to you to recommend the best way for the government to go about starting the procedure as quickly as possible. I hope that it can be done in the next budget year.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]I’m sure they have all taken first aid courses. Today, everyone in the police force must have basic training.Some people may have fears. In fact, I had some myself when defibrillators were installed in our municipality. Some people are afraid to use the device, even if they are told that they just have to follow the instructions. It can be a disturbing situation for many people when something like that happens.Having said that, I think basic training is given to police officers.Adult education and trainingDefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]That’s a very good question. I think we should probably look into that.I don't have a lot of experience in the area, but from what I've read on the subject, the defibrillator will not work if it is not a cardiac arrest. In other words, the defibrillator will not be activated if it is not a cardiac arrest. I don't believe the stories we have heard in the past about people giving heart massages and, for various reasons, breaking the person's ribs or causing other damage.That being said, I am not an expert on justice and I do not want to get into that too much. However, I believe that, in an emergency situation, we have an obligation to provide first aid as best we can. I repeat that, according to everything I have read about cardiac defibrillators, the machine does not work if there is no cardiac arrest.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersLawsuitsM-124Private Members' MotionsPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]I'll be very honest with you: the forecast is that it would cost about $8 million to finalize the project to equip all emergency vehicles with defibrillators. So it's less than $1 million per province, if you do a quick calculation. That's an approximate figure. My training as a math teacher helps me get that figure fairly quickly.Compared to other issues where the federal government has negotiated with all the provinces, I think it is a tiny amount. All it takes for this project to apply to the entire country and to all organizations is some political will.Now that I am a federal member, I am trying to push the issue further. I did the exercise while I was at the municipal level: I asked myself what role I could play as mayor of the municipality. I have shown leadership. I could not impose this measure on companies or the Sûreté du Québec. I could only influence the firefighters and the volunteer safety organization in my municipality. I think it's largely a leadership issue. As I said before, I do not think money is blocking the project.Now that I am a federal legislator like all of you here, my wish quite simply is that all Canadians across the country have the same chances of survival.I expect that, as a result of your study, your committee will have gathered all the research, will have more tools than I had to do the first part of the work and will be able to make recommendations. I guess that is the sort of thing that could be relatively easy to impose in a budget. That being said, as you all know, my motion could not include items with a budgetary cost, since I am not a member of the government. However, I think it is something that could very well be done.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersFederal-provincial-territorial relationsM-124Private Members' MotionsMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]Absolutely. The Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security could make other recommendations, but I would not want those recommendations to interfere with this project.My brother is a firefighter with the City of Montreal, so I sort of know how it works. The City of Montreal firefighters are first responders. Their stations are much more dispersed across their territory. Often, they arrive first at the scene, until other people arrive who will be able to provide the services that the situation requires.My only goal is to increase the number of people with defibrillators who can get to the scene quickly, be they police officers, firefighters or paramedics. They could also be volunteer responders or professional volunteers, as I like to call them. These people have basic training and want to give their time. If there was no defibrillator in a nearby building, at least the first responders on the scene would have one in their vehicle and could use it.That is the main purpose of my motion. That said, I would never be against adding more resources to security services.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]I think all professionals will ask for basic training.As for the maintenance of those devices, we will have to rely on their technical features. I think you have to test them after a while, but I can't answer that with certainty. I am convinced that the companies that sell those devices provide details on the technical things to do to ensure that they work properly.Adult education and trainingDefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]I wouldn't be able to tell you, unfortunately.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]That would be a good question for someone in the field.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]In my opinion, if there is a cost, it must be extremely minimal. Professionals who own these devices could very well do tests after one, two or three years, depending on the features of the devices. It must be relatively easy to do. I am sure that the companies that manufacture those devices have included a system similar to that of a smoke detector, that is, if the battery is defective after a certain time, a signal is sent to change it. I haven't done a study on that, but I'm sure that, if you invite suppliers here, you'll find out fairly quickly. Today, there are more and more suppliers of those devices.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1130)[Translation]Yes, absolutely. You put your finger on a major problem. Once defibrillators are in place in buildings, the problem is really the signage. Once someone has seen something like that or has participated in a process to set up their surroundings with defibrillators, they are much more careful. From my personal experience, I can tell you that, when I walk around a public place like a shopping mall and I see one of those devices, I make a mental note of where it is located. Organizations that purchase them will have some work to do to inform people about where the devices are located.In my motion, since I did not want to go all over the place, I really focused on the aspects that I thought were the most important. I wanted emergency service professionals to have those devices in their vehicles.In this case, I don't think it's a problem, since those professionals would know how to use them. However, when you meet with experts—as I hope you will—if those issues are addressed, it may not be a bad idea to make other recommendations to push the issue even further. The idea is to make people realize that they are installing those devices thinking they are doing a good thing, but then they fail to work on raising awareness.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1130)[Translation]That's a very good question. I don't know how it should be done. I leave it up to the committee to determine which model would be the best. If we come to the conclusion that it is a necessity, we will have to find the best way to proceed. For example, federal money could be transferred to other authorities, or it could be a group purchase through Public Services and Procurement Canada, which would purchase the defibrillators and distribute them. A remaining question is whether, so as to be fair to everyone, the government should consider compensating those who have already purchased those types of devices themselves.I am thinking here of the question Mr. Dubé asked earlier about jurisdictions. I don't think the amount is large enough to create conflicts. No one is against motherhood and apple pie. I sincerely feel that, if a federal report highlighted this shortcoming and pointed out an inequity across the country, the rest would be relatively simple to manage later, during a budget year.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1135)[Translation]Yes, we did a little research with the people at the Library of Parliament. If I am not mistaken, based on the data we have, it would be about $5 million in the case of the RCMP. We estimated that it would cost about $8 million to equip all emergency vehicles with defibrillators. That being said, we should certainly look at this a little more thoroughly in order to update the data.Let me reiterate that the first part of the motion is for the RCMP, for jurisdiction purposes, but I still believe that, if you decide to make recommendations, we should go further. I am thinking particularly of the First Nations. The government, and I think Parliament as a whole, is very sensitive to what is happening within First Nations. They often have independent police forces and want to have their own services. It would be helpful if you did the research. I did not, I have to admit, but I am deeply convinced that their areas could be better equipped with cardiac defibrillators.Aboriginal reservesDefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1135)[Translation]No, but my son works in computers, so I'll give him the idea of setting up such a project. He could get very rich.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1135)[Translation]Honestly, I think that's a great idea. That would be a very interesting option.Let me use my municipality as an example, because it is very specific. After it was equipped with defibrillators, the communications department posted the information on its website, but people still need to think about checking the municipality's website to find out where they can find a defibrillator. It would be nice if there were a little free app. I am sure that creating such an app would not be very expensive. It could be a good sign of leadership on the part of the government to create such an app or to entrust this fine project to a young person. That's a very good idea, Mr. Chair.Application softwareDefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]Yeah, that's right. A priori, if the federal government takes the initiative, it could take responsibility for the file and ensure that the entire territory is adequately equipped at the same time. This wouldn't be the first time the federal government has taken action that affects all of Canada, regardless of province or territory. This could even be part of the negotiations on health funds transferred to the provinces and territories. A provision could be included for an additional amount for this measure.Keep in mind that, for the entire territory, the total cost of this measure is estimated at about $8 million. Generally speaking, this would represent $750,000 per province or territory, if they all had the same population. That is very little, compared to other amounts that are transferred. It would be relatively easy to do.The more we talk about it, the more interesting I find the idea of including First Nations in the calculation. I don't think that was part of the $8 million I arrived at. Anyway, I don't think it would be much higher if First Nations were included.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]Yes, that would be very appropriate.I repeat that I hope the federal government will take responsibility for this file. In my opinion, the amount of money is completely laughable compared to the magnitude of the benefits it could have on the population as a whole.Will the government decide to negotiate for training to be taken over by professional organizations? This could be quite appropriate as well, since they already offer training. Given your experience, you could tell us more, but I think it would be very simple to then add half an hour or an hour to the emergency training offered to all stakeholders in all sectors.Adult education and trainingDefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Yes. My motion ignores that because I limited myself to emergency vehicles. I didn't want to start interfering with other jurisdictions. That said, this measure could go very far. It could go as far as municipalities. It could even be applied through school boards across Canada. We should think about that. This has been a challenge for many sports facilities. Another challenge we faced was sitting down with the school board and the health care centre to make sure they were everywhere in the municipality.The examples you're talking about are in the private sector. Could we raise awareness so that these organizations can equip themselves with devices? I don't believe that the government should pay instead of private companies in this case.However, if the movement is well under way, perhaps it would be appropriate for the various chambers of commerce associations or federations, such as the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, to conduct awareness campaigns. Ultimately, this could be a tax credit. It might be a good idea to offer a tax credit to any company that decides to purchase a defibrillator.That being said, I want to say that this is not part of my motion. However, if you want to make a recommendation to go further, I would be happy to do so, and I would see no problem with that, provided, of course, that my motion is adopted first.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsPrivate sectorJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Your data is correct. It has been shown that 80% of heart problems could be prevented by smoking less, eating better, drinking less alcohol and, of course, exercising more. Prevention is the key to success in improving our quality of life, living longer and, above all, living better. That said, even a perfectly healthy person can go into cardiac arrest. That is why this motion was introduced.Indeed, this should not in any way minimize the efforts and work to promote healthy lifestyles that all organizations do at all levels. I no longer know what the health budget is across Canada, but it must be well over 50% of the total budget. Emergencies are always being responded to, and perhaps not enough is being done in terms of prevention. You're absolutely right that it doesn't take away from our obligation to insist that there be prevention work.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Preventive medicinePrivate Members' MotionsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]First, I will talk about business people. Everyone is aware of the labour shortage across Canada. If I owned a business, I would want to take care of my staff. Many companies offer favourable conditions to do more sports, give credits to employees who become members of a fitness centre, or install showers and training centres on site. Not all companies do this, but those with the means do.I love the idea that has been put forward of offering tax credits to companies that buy defibrillators, which would increase the number of defibrillators.I seem to be hammering away and repeating myself, but that has nothing to do with my motion. I wanted to focus on emergency vehicles across Canada. However, if the expert testimony leads you to make other recommendations that will increase the number of these devices and increase the federal government's efforts to promote healthy lifestyles, I am certainly not the one who will oppose them. On the contrary, I would be very happy. However, I would like us to focus on one thing. I would not want the report to be overburdened and the essential thing forgotten, which is to equip all emergency vehicles across Canada with defibrillators.I'm not an expert in health or science, but I know that even if a person is very fit, they can go into cardiac arrest. We see that most cardiac arrests occur in sports venues. We all exercise to get fit, but unfortunately we can get injured. For various reasons, people go into cardiac arrest with intense effort. It's a big issue.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]That is a very wise comment. I haven't checked whether governments elsewhere in the world have taken the initiative to do that. I invite you to ask that we do some research on this subject. It was about whether we are lagging behind other countries or whether we will become leaders in the field.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Yes, that's right. I'm convinced that a report from the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security that would be support by all parliamentarians, and therefore by the government, of course, could get things moving quickly. I'm convinced that, if things were conducted smoothly, this could be resolved before the end of the mandate. There is still one budget year left. In other words, we should try to get there as quickly as possible.I still believe that, in our budget year, these amounts are a trifle. I am convinced that if we brought people around the table who would even be a little bit wild, it would be quite possible to find these sums within a budgetary framework. At least, we could negotiate or discuss with the premiers or representatives of the provinces, territories and First Nations. We could send a very clear message. I'm also thinking, considering all the comments you have made, that it would be possible, at the same time, to encourage the economic community as a whole, as well as educational and health institutions, to equip themselves with these devices. That would create movement.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to answer your question about buildings. But I can tell you that, if all federal buildings are equipped with defibrillators, I haven't seen many in my two and a half years since becoming a member of Parliament. I seriously wonder where I would find a defibrillator if an employee in my office or an adjacent one had a heart attack. I would dial 911.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersGovernment facilitiesM-124Private Members' MotionsRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]I have also done Ironman triathlons.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]I'll be doing my third Ironman this August.This project is very important to me.Our time is running out. I just want to thank you personally for your questions and your attention to this motion. I want to thank all parliamentarians from all the political parties for their support.You can't imagine how proud I felt that day to be a Canadian MP and to see that, although there is partisanship on many issues, as we know, we are all able to stand up when it's for the well-being of all Canadians.I want to thank you all for what you've done.DefibrillatorsEmergency response and emergency respondersM-124Private Members' MotionsRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1110)[Translation]As I see it, it will all depend on when we get it. You said in the evening, but if I get it after six or seven o'clock, I honestly don't think I'll be able to give my feedback the next day, considering the long hours we've been putting in for nearly two weeks now.What's more, I don't really feel like making my staff work after hours, Monday night, given all the long hours they've been pulling for a while. I'm not questioning, however, your efforts to get it delivered sooner.If we can get it at a reasonable time, I would gladly make the effort to spend some time on it Monday evening, but I won't work on it until midnight; that's for sure. In any case, I'm on duty Monday.Let's not forget the constant votes being called without warning. I don't want the committee to count too much on my contribution. I don't mean it in a negative way; I simply wouldn't hold out too much hope.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1135)[Translation]I agree that there's no rush to deal with the matter, but does it have to be included? That's a question I think we should ask ourselves.I realize that it's tied to infrastructure, but as far as smart cities are concerned, it's more a matter of infrastructure management. Perhaps we could mention the piping, the way it is managed, and the need to know what the current inventory is. From the comments we heard, we learned that we have no idea as to the inventory across the country, so I don't think using this element as an example poses a problem.What I wonder about, though, is the reason for incorporating the motion into our study on smart cities. We could simply include all the elements affecting all cities and mention that particular aspect. Does the issue merit a report? I don't really have an opinion on that yet.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]I agree with my colleague's sage advice. I think we can hold off on deciding whether to include it in the report. You just said we have until December. That gives us enough time to think about it. Let's not rule out the possibility. I just think we should wait to hear what the witnesses have to say during the next four days of meetings in order to figure out whether we really can connect the two in a meaningful way. I think we can work towards that. We shall see.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]I agree with my two colleagues. I have no objection to that idea. What we will need to think about during the next four meetings on smart communities is whether to deal with it fully in that report, merely take it into account, or devote another report to it.We have no problem discussing that. I see no reason why anyone would think the opposite.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.With all due respect to the committee members and the study on smart communities, I think we can bring in all kinds of witnesses to hear about their experiences. We have heard from many, and heaven knows how important the subject is, but the priority, even before we start thinking about smart cities, should be on hearing from communities that do not currently have access to fibre optics, that do not have access to the technology. As things stand, multiple regions across the country simply do not have access to it.The minister has all the necessary authority in that regard and makes his infrastructure choices. The government announced a $180-billion plan and says that the infrastructure bank is coming soon. We should know a bit more. Perhaps the bank could even support Canada-wide projects aimed at getting everyone connected.At the Federation of Canadian Municipalities' annual conference last week, we learned that the federal government intends to hold a smart cities challenge, so the government already seems to have a clear sense of what it wants to do on that front.I think the people the committee should hear from are those who do not have that access. What should the government do? What should the committee recommend to the Department of Finance and the government to make this an essential service that is accessible to everyone?That said, I'm not trying to take anything away from the rest of it, but, as the expression goes, we're putting the cart before the horse. It's urgent that we get everyone across the country connected, no matter where they live. That is what we need to build on in order to help all municipalities.Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, in short, all the big cities, have been working on this for a long time now, believe me. For years, municipal associations have been meeting with experts from all over the world to get advice on best practices. They are already active, they know the programs, they know which doors to knock on for the funding to carry out these projects. They don't need a challenge. We aren't the ones in the lead; I would even say we're behind them. They are already ahead of us.We need to give this serious consideration. We need to find witnesses who will make the recommendations that will help the government, so it can make the right decisions to ensure everyone is connected.That is my humble opinion, anyway. Otherwise, it will simply be a waste of time.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation] Madam Chair, I just want to clarify something.I don't oppose Mr. Badawey's motion. In fact, I completely agree that we work on it. My point is simply this: if I had any sway over the witness list, I would encourage the committee to learn as much as it could to figure out how to get communities connected. We could work with private companies—who are willing to work with the government—to put it all together. I want to make myself perfectly clear: I am not at all against this motion. I, too, have a municipal background. Before we hear from Vancouver and Montreal officials on what their cities are already doing, we should, instead, look at how we can get everyone connected so that we can all make progress.Believe me, the big cities are already working on it; they don't need us in order to think about it. They have their own experts, advisors, and lobbies looking after them. I just wanted to clarify that I am not at all opposed to this motion.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]I want to clarify that I am not against it, just so we're all clear.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]On what was just said, I don't know that we should rush to hear from witnesses as soon as June 14, since we won't be studying the subject until after the summer break, during which we'll all be in our respective ridings. Perhaps we could allow a month to propose witnesses. That would give plenty of time to contact them. That might help us, on our end, do a better job.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]It's a suggestion.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1105)[English]Yes, the new team.[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Good morning. My thanks to the witnesses for coming here.My first question is for either Health Canada or the Office of Infrastructure of Canada. Is there a complete inventory of the water pipes that might contain lead here in Canada?Drinking waterLeadWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGregCarreau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1105)[Translation]I would like to hear what the officials from the Office of Infrastructure of Canada have to say about this.Water qualityGregCarreauAlainDesruisseaux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]I'm surprised. I was honestly expecting to hear that a national database had been created for that purpose, especially since you say that you work closely with the provinces and, in turn, with the municipalities, I imagine. God knows that this is a serious problem for municipalities. This is the case in many parts of Canada.Would it not be wise to have such a database?The government wants to implement programs. It chooses the ones in which it wants to invest money; so it sets priorities.When it develops its budget, how does it decide to prioritize water quality, for example, in infrastructure programs, and to allow work to be done on the pipes?Drinking waterLeadWater supplyAlainDesruisseauxAlainDesruisseaux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]In my opinion, if you rely on the municipalities and they have access to those data, it should not be so complicated—with two territories and 10 provinces—to compile that information in a database in order to be able to monitor the situation. As a result, the government or the department responsible for infrastructure could have a longer-term perspective and a clearer idea of the time required to address the problem across Canada. Honestly, your answer really surprises me.The infrastructure bank is a topic much debated in the House of Commons. We hear that the bank is going to have $35 billion for projects.Are the projects related to drinking water and the replacement of water mains among the priorities of the Office of Infrastructure of Canada?Could municipalities get funding for this through the infrastructure bank?Canada Infrastructure BankDrinking waterLeadWater supplyAlainDesruisseauxAlainDesruisseaux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]I encourage you to—AlainDesruisseauxJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]Yes. This is just a comment.I encourage you to go through the exercise with a number of the elected officials here. I can confirm that all municipalities have access to those data. At any rate, the vast majority have access to them.In order for the government to make decisions, regardless of the party in power, the department should have access to that information to be able to make forecasts. I bring it back to the budget exercise. I think it would make us a little less cynical in the way we see things.Drinking waterLeadWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you, Ms. Block.Thanks to both witnesses for being with us.Like everyone else, we are concerned about airport security. We see what is happening in various parts of the world, and in Montreal in particular. My colleague, Mr. Luc Berthold, had intended to talk about this, but unfortunately he could not be here. He sends his regrets. His replacement is Mr. Deltell.Mr. Berthold and I are very concerned by certain investigative reports that we have seen regarding the Montreal airport. I think the committee would like an answer to certain questions.In various media reports, we have heard about the profile of certain employees, which could be worrisome. We hear all kinds of stories about individuals whose profile could raise questions. Far be it from me to scare people. I think you do a tremendous job and I am not in any way questioning the coordination of all the services. The information we have received, however, is that there are just six armed SPVM officers who work around the airport, and not necessarily in the restricted area. In fact, acts are not necessarily committed in restricted areas.Is it true that there are six SPVM officers doing that work at the Montreal airport?Air safetyPolice officersJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekPhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]We know that, in Quebec, it is the Sûreté du Québec. Federally, it is the RCMP. You also have more than 200 members of your internal security service, if memory serves me well.Are there other police services or security officers from your organizations that patrol the public areas of the airport, or is that the responsibility of the six police officers we are talking about?Air safetyPolice officersPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]Okay.PhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]Okay.PhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]I am referring to the public areas. Are there not other police services or security officers who also work in the areas where the SPVM patrols?Air safetyPolice officersPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]You might not have the figures, but for how long has there been the equivalent of six police officers on patrol? Has it been for five years, 10 years, or is it something recent?Air safetyPolice officersPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]That's perfect.Pierre-PaulPharandJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1135)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Before I start, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that my friend opposite had no reason to point out my colleague’s absence, nor any right to do so. I think it was inappropriate on his part. That is all I want to say on the matter. Personally, I prefer to show my colleague some understanding because I know how very important he feels this topic to be. My intentions were good. I can assure you that he wanted to be here, but he had to be away for an urgent personal matter. That is all I wanted to say about it.Now, here are my questions.You said that traffic is increasing by about 5% per year. If we go by what we read in various articles, and the fact that people are going on vacation, especially in the winter to get a little bit of sun, I doubt if the traffic is going to decrease. You confirm that yourself.Does the level of people’s security also go up each year? Is it in proportion to the increasing traffic and the budgets allocated? I would like to know if you take that into consideration. I imagine that that the presence of more and more people also requires more surveillance, more training, and more resources in order to ensure security.Air safetyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekPhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]So, if I follow your reasoning, are you saying that to decrease the line-ups that are more and more frequent at Montreal-Trudeau airport without adversely affecting security, all we need is more staff?As I understand it, in order not to decrease the level of security, financial resources have to be allocated to hiring staff or to new technologies. Perhaps there are technologies that can achieve that result. Otherwise, the travellers automatically bear the brunt, either in the quality of the service or in the time they have to wait.Air safetyPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]That's great.As I understand your comments, your level of security is very high. Would you say that it is higher than at other Canadian and international airports?Of course, I am talking about major city airports. There is no need to compare situations that are not comparable.Air safetyPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]Let me ask the question again. Compared to the security services in airports like New York, Fort Lauderdale, Paris, Barcelona or Toronto, are those at Montreal Airport above average or at the average?Air safetyPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]If the risks to be managed were the same at all those airports and an international incident occurred, would our level of security be higher than or the same as at other airports?Air safetyPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Thank you.I imagine that you go and see best practices elsewhere. Can you tell me about the practices used in Montreal that set you apart from the airports with which you are in competition?I suppose “competition” is not exactly the proper term. Let's just say things that are done elsewhere, internationally.Air safetyPhilippeRainvilleJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]You can just give me one example, if you want.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekPhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]So not all airports provide that service.Air safetyPhilippeRainvillePhilippeRainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Thank you.Thank you, Madam Chair.PhilippeRainvilleJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I see no problem with Mr. Badawey's motion. I think we all agree that smart communities are important and that it would be desirable for everyone to talk to each other, be it at the municipal, provincial or federal level. In the motion, it says: “...other levels of government, as they undertake integrated land use planning...” I do not know whether it is a translation problem, but in French, the term “aménagement des terres” is used. I just want to understand what is meant by “aménagement des terres”. Actually, land use planning is ongoing. All communities work on land use planning.I wonder whether I missed something. Could we just clarify that? However, I completely agree on the substance.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1255)[Translation]Madam Chair, if you agree, I would like the translation to be revised. What Mr. Badawey is saying is perfectly correct, but it is not reflected in the French version. For the rest, I agree on the substance.Committee businessVanceBadaweyNiagara CentreJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1255)[Translation]I don't think it's necessary. We agree on the principle, but if you are in agreement, I would at least like it to be translated correctly according to what was mentioned.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Block.I want to thank the witnesses for being here.I want to take another look at an issue that's very important to me. I know the witnesses spent a lot of time preparing their appearance before us. However, I need to follow up on a situation that occurred here the week before the break. The issue is as important as the one we're discussing today. I'm talking about the Canada Infrastructure Bank. The issue, which we studied here for only an hour and a half, involves $35 billion in public funds. That's taxpayers' money.Madam Chair, I'm following up on the issue because, when I talked about it, you weren't here, unfortunately. I think you were directly linked to my dissatisfaction regarding this issue. I can take the opportunity to summarize the situation.On Thursday, May 4, you received, on our behalf, a letter from the Standing Committee on Finance. The letter indicated the following:The Standing Committee on Finance is currently studying the subject matter of Bill C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measures. Please find attached a series of motions adopted by the Standing Committee on Finance on Wednesday, May 3 ...I'll skim over this part of the letter. It went on to say the following: The motions that were adopted also invite your Committee, if it deems appropriate, to provide us with recommendations ...Madam Chair, I want to specify that I'm currently talking about the motion I tabled. My colleagues across the way closed the debate on this motion, and I want to resume it. As the clerk explained, the second part of the motion was admissible.Do people still need a copy of the letter?If not, may I continue, Madam Clerk?C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankCommittee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]I want us to resume debating this motion and to have the opportunity to discuss the very important issue of the Infrastructure Bank.Madam Chair, you were addressed by the chair of the Standing Committee on Finance, who invited the committee to provide recommendations and amendments, as appropriate. The letter specified the following: Accordingly, the Parliamentary Counsel ... Nathalie Caron ... as well as the Legislative Clerk, Justin Vaive ... are available to advise your Committee, respectively, on the drafting of amendments and their admissibility.I think the Standing Committee on Finance's message was quite clear.The letter also said the following:Therefore, I invite you to send me the Committee's recommendations, including any suggested amendments, by letter, in both official languages, no later than 5:00 p.m. on Friday, May 19, 2017.It was the Friday before the break week, when we returned to our respective constituencies. I'll skip this part.To my surprise, upon my return, I learned that you wrote a letter to the chair of the Standing Committee on Finance on our behalf. I was personally insulted, since I never felt that I was consulted regarding the matter.I'll read the letter you sent.Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]These are technical details. I don't know whether the clerk can answer me.I tabled a motion, and my goal is for us to debate the motion. The government members ended the discussion before we reached an agreement. They took all the necessary steps to make that happen. My motion concerns an extremely important matter. Someone spoke on our behalf. I want to know my options so that I can continue the process in order to have my motion passed. I consider that this privilege was taken away from me when the debate was closed. According to my information, I think I have the power to continue the process in order to have my motion passed.I don't know what I must do exactly. The process seems vague. I'm asking the clerk to clarify whether I can move forward with my motion, either as part of a debate or some other way. I have no idea.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]Madam Chair, my motion was never voted on. I was never able to have the motion voted on. I want to know why I can table a motion without having it voted on. All I want is to explain the meaning of my motion and the reasons for it. That's all. I don't see what would prevent us from debating the motion and then voting on it.I don't know whether you're aware of this, but we're currently in a situation where someone spoke on behalf of the committee, an independent committee. I'm tabling a motion because I want to continue discussing an issue—Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekVanceBadaweyNiagara Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]I don't think we can rise on a point of order in this regard, at this time. I want us to debate the matter that interests me.Committee businessVanceBadaweyNiagara CentreJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]I'll give the floor to my colleague, Ms. Block.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Yes.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Madam Chair, I'd like to respond to what you just said.There may have been a mixup in the date and clerical issues, but the fact remains that you wrote to the chair of the finance committee and said that our committee didn't have any recommendations. You never put the question to the committee members. I had a recommendation; I had it with me that Thursday. I even sent it afterwards, as that was the only way it would get submitted. I didn't have the opportunity to make that recommendation in committee, as I should have.[English]An hon. member: Yes you did.An hon. member: No we did not.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAlainRayesRichmond—Arthabaska//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1205)[Translation]May I speak without constantly being interrupted? I'd like to finish speaking.I believe it was partly because of them that I didn't have the opportunity to discuss my motion or have it voted on. The arrogance is not coming from over here.Thank you, Madam Chair.Committee businessAlainRayesRichmond—ArthabaskaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'd like to give notice and read the following motion:That the Committee reserve a minimum of another complete meeting on the subject of the Canada Infrastructure Bank and invite the former Chair of the Business Development Bank of Canada to appear on the subject.Now I'd like us to discuss the motion, please.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Yes, it's a new motion. It's not an old motion. I was told that I could no longer speak to it, so I am introducing a new one. I'm glad we're doing this with the microphones and cameras on, thanks to my colleague across the way.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Madam Chair, we are in committee right now. Unless I'm mistaken, we can deal with the motion immediately, without notice.Madam Clerk can correct me if I'm wrong.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekVanceBadaweyNiagara Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]I agree, so I am asking the committee's permission to discuss my motion immediately. Otherwise, I would like us to deal with it in 48 hours.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekVanceBadaweyNiagara Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1210)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to thank the witnesses for travelling here. I had some questions to ask you, but, unfortunately for you, I am going to begin by making a motion.Imagine my surprise, when I arrived here, to learn of a letter that the chair of our committee had sent to the chair of the Standing Committee on Finance before today's meeting, although the letter is dated...Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]I would like to move the motion with the text you have in hand. However, I would like to make some changes to it, given that the deadlines have passed.Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.As you see, there are dates that need changing. Naturally, I am requesting an amendment to the motion so that it reads: "That the Committee commit two more hours to additional witness testimony on the Infrastructure Bank before finalizing its study, and that the Committee invite three additional witnesses." I would strike the rest...Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Even to correct the dates?LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Therefore, I will keep the end of my motion, as it is the only part that is still valid: “That the committee write a letter to the FINA Commitee to request additional time to conduct its study of the Infrastructure Bank.”Allow me to explain this request.I have, in my hands, a letter which is curiously dated tomorrow, Friday, May 19, 2017 but was sent yesterday to the Standing Committee on Finance. Does everyone have a copy of this letter? It is signed by our chair, who, unfortunately, is not present. What a shame, because I would have liked to hear what she has to say about this.The letter reads as follows:Upon your request, the Standing Committee of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities undertook the consideration of clauses  403 to 406 (Division 18, Part 4) of Bill C-44. In doing so, the Committee heard testimony from the Canadian Electricity Association, the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy, the Canadian Union of Public Employees as well as officials from Infrastructure Canada and Finance Canada.So far, everything is true.The problem is when the chair speaks on our behalf and says the following:I am pleased to inform you that the Committee has no recommendations….I would like for the clerk to confirm whether we all made this decision together, as a committee. To my knowledge, this is not the case, and I do not believe I have missed any discussions about this subject. The letter continues as follows:… or suggested amendments for clauses 403 to 406 of Bill C-44. I don't know whether my fellow members across the table will have the courage to confirm my statement, but I find this very peculiar. This is the first time since I became a member of Parliament that I have experienced such a situation, that someone speaks in my name, sends a letter two days before the date indicated on the letter, which is already a peculiar way of doing things, and decides for me, in the name of all the committee members, that there will be no amendments.The letter continues: Please note I invited Committee Members to contact the Parliamentary Counsel and Legislative Clerk assigned to bill C-44 should Members wish to draft amendments on their own initiative and to submit them directly to the Clerk of the Standing Committee on Finance before Friday, May 19, 2017 at 5:00 p.m.I have searched all of my emails and letter mail without finding anything in writing in either official languages offering me this possibility.The letter concludes:Yours sincerely.The Infrastructure Bank is a big issue. Many witnesses were of the opinion that such a bank was premature. I will repeat what the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy official said: we are putting the cart before the horse.I want to make clear that we are talking about $35 billion. That's 35 billion taxpayer dollars that will be used to enrich investors, for the most part foreign investors, to the detriment of Canadians. This is simply a way for the government, and therefore taxpayers, to secure the investments of these businesses or foreign investors.Our committee chair, a Liberal member, is speaking in my name, in a letter dated tomorrow and sent yesterday, to announce that our committee will not propose any amendments. I just cannot believe it. I hope that our discussion is on the record and that it is not taking place in camera. Are we in camera? No, we are not. I want to try to highlight the inconsistency in which we find ourselves.C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCommittee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableVanceBadaweyNiagara Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]I would also like to say that the letter—Committee businessVanceBadaweyNiagara CentreVanceBadaweyNiagara Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]—that I want to send to the Standing Committee on Finance....May I continue?Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Thank you.I apologize to the witnesses, although this will allow them to understand a bit what is currently happening in Parliament.I would like to say to my fellow member on the other side that what is regrettable is the chair's decision to send a letter dated tomorrow, but sent yesterday, in the name of an independent committee.I would like the committee to adopt this motion, which asks that we write to the Standing Committee on Finance. This is what is asked at the end of the motion: that our committee write a letter to the Standing Committee on Finance to ask for more—Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableAngeloIaconoAlfred-Pellan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]The second part of the motion, which, in my opinion, is still very valid and which I would like the committee to support, proposes that our committee write a letter to the Standing Committee on Finance to request that more time be dedicated to the study of the Infrastructure Bank of Canada. In reality, this directly contradicts the chair's decision to send, on our behalf, a letter yesterday—a letter dated tomorrow, I might add—stating that the committee has no amendments or recommendations on this issue.With respect to this letter to the Standing Committee on Finance, I would like to remind the committee of this: The Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities recommends that your Committee permit more time to study the design and implications of the proposed Infrastructure Bank by removing Part 4, Division 18, and other references to that Bank, from the rest of Bill C-44. In reality, it's about splitting Bill C-44 to remove the part concerning the Infrastructure Bank of Canada.I would like to point out that it is not sufficient to examine an issue this important, which affects all Canadian taxpayers, for an hour and a half. Important questions were asked concerning the interests of this bank, the real benefits relative to other existing financing options, and even the evidence supporting its creation.In order to believe in the merits of the proposed bank, we must be able to further examine the issue. I remind you that we are talking about money belonging to all Canadians, which is not to be taken lightly. We are talking about $35 billion that will line the pockets of businesses, investors, and firms. Who will incur the risks associated with this money? Canadians will. As someone representing Canadians, I find what is happening unacceptable. An attempt was made to muzzle us by stating, on our behalf, that there were no recommendations to be made. To imagine for a second that we would not make a single recommendation in the report on the study the committee is currently undertaking, one would have had to be oblivious to everything that was said during the question and comment period and to what the witnesses who came here told us. I am speechless. It is the first time that I see such a situation. I am furious. We are talking about our fellow citizens. We were elected to gain their trust.An attempt is being made to put one over on us, as they say. This is too big. It's like trying to push a train through a mouse hole and thinking that we wouldn't notice. A letter dated tomorrow—because that's the deadline—was sent yesterday on our behalf. I'm not sure whether you realize. It said that we would have the opportunity to have our say, but that's false.I do not know how we will deal with this, but it is clear to me that we must, at the very least, contact the members of the Standing Committee on Finance and ask them to give us more time to study the issue so that we can get to the bottom of it. If this bank is to be created, it will not be because the Liberals used their majority in the House to push it through under our noses, unbeknownst to Canadians. What we are experiencing is completely ridiculous.I hope that the government members will at least be embarrassed by this situation and agree to this motion so that we can have more time, especially because we have a letter speaking on our behalf.I don't know how to react to all of this. I sincerely hope that everyone will agree and that members across the table will support this motion. We would then have more time to ask questions, as we should, and to make recommendations so that the government can make the best decision possible, without smuggling this under our noses.Thank you, Mr. Chair.C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCommittee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1245)[Translation]So, when will my motion be put to a vote?Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1245)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would like some clarifications on this situation. I bring out the fact that I have a clear feeling of being gagged. I want to know what will happen to my motion.Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1245)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I raise a point of order.I want to know what is happening with regards to my motion. You speak of adjournment, but I don't understand this technicality. I would like for the clerk to elaborate on the topic.Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1245)[Translation]Thank you Mr. Chair.Can you tell us where we stand? I admit I am still reeling at the idea that the report must be done and sent to the Standing Committee on Finance on Friday without having had the chance to express our views. Yesterday, someone decided on our behalf that we would not have any recommendations to submit.Are we going ahead with the closed proceedings?Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1245)[Translation]So we will have absolutely no chance to share our recommendations before the end of the meeting. Is that correct?Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]I don't know if the clerk could help us with this, but I truly have the feeling that we are in a dead-end.From what I understand, the analysts must draft a report on the Infrastructure Bank by tomorrow and submit it to the Standing Committee on Finance.Do we have until tomorrow to make recommendations?Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]Please excuse my questions, but I want to know if a document wrongly dated sent on our behalf without our consent has any legal standing.Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableVanceBadaweyNiagara Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]I rise on a point of order.Committee businessVanceBadaweyNiagara CentreVanceBadaweyNiagara Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]I am trying to follow the rules. Someone spoke on my behalf and I believe I have the right to express myself on this subject. There is indeed a letter, and the president used her right to send it. She has that power. However, this letter gives instructions and cited the Committee members on this, whereas the members did not consent to it. I simply want to know if this means that, if the president sends a letter, it takes precedence on everything that was said, whether the contents of that letter are true or not.What can we do, as Committee members?Committee businessVanceBadaweyNiagara CentreLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I already took up too much time dedicated to the witnesses.Before giving way to government Members, I would like to apologize, on behalf of all Members, for this unfortunate situation. I feel that my rights have been completely breached today.I do not have any questions to ask. I will give up my time, regardless of what becomes of it. There is nothing else for me to say today.Committee businessLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1210)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Before I get to my questions, I would like to ask my fellow members something.This is our only opportunity to dig into the very important matter of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. Since we had to leave for a vote in the House, would it be possible to extend the meeting by 15 to 20 minutes, rather than ending on time at 1 o'clock? Everyone would still be able to make it to the House in time for statements by members and oral questions.I'm not sure whether we can come to some friendly arrangement, without jumping through any procedural hoops or resorting to a motion.Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you everyone.I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here. We apologize for the delay.My first question is for you, Mr. Ali Kahn.In the paper you co-authored, I believe, with Kevin Page and other members of your institute, you say that the case for the Canada Infrastructure Bank is weak. You also say that the government has no real idea whether the bank will meet its objectives or not, since there appears to be no comparable model elsewhere in the world. The bank's structure will seemingly be based on a transfer of public assets to the private sector.In light of the new information you now have, do you still stand behind what you wrote in your paper?Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAzfarAli Khan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]In other words, the creation of the bank is premature.Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankAzfarAli KhanAzfarAli Khan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]That's great.Ms. Ryan, when the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities appeared before the committee, along with some of his senior officials, we asked them on what basis projects would be chosen. A senior official said that it would depend on the investment return or benefit of the project. Obviously, they are looking to do better than the 2% to 3% rates that any government—federal, provincial, or municipal—would seek in terms of financing. There is an attempt to make people think that funding opportunities are lacking right now, but I think that's totally false.I would add that, this week, the Minister of Finance said that it would be cabinet deciding on the projects. We don't know much. I would say that your concerns are well-founded.Investors, then, looking for good investments, will be the ones investing the bulk of the bank's money.Who do you think the Canada Infrastructure Bank is really going to benefit?Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankAzfarAli KhanSarahRyan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]It is therefore clear to you that, under this measure, members of the public will be paying more for this infrastructure at the end of the day.Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankSarahRyanSarahRyan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Mr.—SarahRyanJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Mr. Campbell, could you name a project that the bank could finance, one that the government could not get funding for elsewhere, either through bonds or its own coffers if it managed its finances properly? Name one single project that would need a new funding structure, outside what already exists.Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGlennCampbell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]We have heard endless illustrative examples. We are looking for a specific case. The Minister appeared before the committee, alongside his senior officials. We asked them to name a single specific project, but they were never able to.Unfortunately, I didn't specify that I was talking about small and medium-sized municipalities. The $15 billion the government has chosen to invest in the bank is money that had been set aside for all of the country's municipalities. That money was transferred to the Canada Infrastructure Bank.All we keep hearing is that it will be used for power lines, for example. Those are projects that—Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankGlennCampbellJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Thank you.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1305)[Translation]I'm going to split my time with my colleague Pierre Poilievre.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1310)[Translation]Mr. Campbell, will cabinet, the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance have to approve appointees to the infrastructure bank's leadership and board of directors, yes or no? Will any of them have a say in the final decision?Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankGlennCampbellGlennCampbell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1310)[Translation]Yes or no?Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankGlennCampbellGlennCampbell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1310)[Translation]The government will ultimately have a say in the appointment of the bank's directors and leadership. Will it not?Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankGlennCampbellGlennCampbell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1310)[Translation]Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.Just this morning, CBC and Radio-Canada reported that a former KPMG executive was now the treasurer of the Liberal Party. That is the very same firm behind the Canada Infrastructure Bank report the government is relying on in establishing the structure.Can you corroborate that information reported by the media?Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankGlennCampbellGlennCampbell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1310)[Translation]KPMG submitted a report. This morning, CBC and Radio-Canada reported that the treasurer of the Liberal Party of Canada was a former KPMG executive.Is that information true?Budget 2017 (March 22, 2017)C-44, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017 and other measuresCanada Infrastructure BankGlennCampbellGlennCampbell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1215)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Minister Sohi, my questions are for you, and I am particularly interested in the Canada infrastructure bank. You know how interested I am in this matter, because I am constantly asking you questions about it in the House.In 2015, Infrastructure Canada published a document stating that no provincial or territorial government had requested the creation of such an institution. Has that changed since 2015?Air safetyCanada Infrastructure BankJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Let me stop you there, Mr. Minister. My question was whether or not any provincial, municipal or territorial government had asked you to set up an infrastructure bank, yes or no. Have you received such a request? If so, can you name a Canadian province or a Canadian municipality that told you that such a bank was needed?Canada Infrastructure BankMain estimates 2017-2018AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Great. Thank you.I have yet to receive the name of a province or territory, but that's fine. In your mandate letter, you are asked to establish an infrastructure bank so that the federal government can use its strong credit to more easily provide loans to municipalities to finance their many infrastructure projects. By the way, municipalities borrow at a maximum of 2% right now. We know that this infrastructure bank must be of financial interest to private investors. Even Mr. Sabia said that projects should be funded at a rate of about 7% so that it is profitable for the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec to invest in this bank. Can you tell me what the minimum amount of a project will be for this infrastructure bank to accept it? According to the data that we were given in the various discussions and the figures that you have quoted to the House, if I'm not mistaken, the projects should be at least $100 million or $500 million to make it attractive for investors.Main estimates 2017-2018AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Very well, but I want to come back to that. I am really talking about the Canada infrastructure bank. You say that all municipalities could have access to it, whether for small, medium-sized or large projects. I'm not worried about big projects. The governments of large cities will indeed be able to resort to this bank if they see a financial interest.Having said that, the last time you appeared before the committee, I asked you the following question. I even challenged Mr. Tremblay.Can you name a project for which a small or medium-sized municipality outside the major centres would benefit from requesting funding from the Canada infrastructure bank and that investors might be interested in funding?I am referring to funding other than that normally provided by municipalities, which is under 2%.Can you name a concrete project through which the Canada infrastructure bank could help communities outside major centres across Canada?Main estimates 2017-2018AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Very well.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1115)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the witnesses for being here and sharing their experience with all the committee members.Before I start asking the questions I have prepared, I would like to check something with you, Mr. Maybee. In your conclusion, when the chair told you that your time was up, you said that you are limited by Transport Canada's hiring practices. Did I understand correctly?Air safetyAviation safety inspectorsLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableSteveMaybee//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]Mr. Maybee and Mr. Mahon, I would like to know whether the budget cuts imposed on the Department of Transport have had an impact on aviation safety. If so, do you have any examples to give us?Air safetyBudget cutsSteveMaybeeGlennMahon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]Mr. Maybee, I am listening.GlennMahonSteveMaybee//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]Mr. Maybee, why is that interaction not as fluid or as accessible? Is it because there are fewer people and the personnel is overburdened, or is it rather because the department's culture is making it difficult for it to work directly with you, to share information, to be more transparent or to recognize that your expertise may help it improve aviation safety?Air safetySteveMaybeeSteveMaybee//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]Mr. Mahon, would you like to add anything?SteveMaybeeGlennMahon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]I don't know whether I can summarize that by saying that there is a lot of red tape in the system and that, if it was reduced, efficiency would be enhanced. Is what I said correct?Air safetyGlennMahonLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank our three witnesses, who surely have very busy schedules, for joining us and spending some of their precious time with us.My first question is for you, Mr. Deluce.Before it amends its regulations or procedures, does Transport Canada consult companies like yours to gather their input.If not, are you rather presented with a fait accompli and forced to fight to make improvements to the procedures after suffering the consequences of those amendments?Air safetyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableRobertDeluce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1215)[Translation]Given your expertise on the ground, why did Transport Canada not take your recommendations into account?Previous witnesses talked about a serious lack of interaction between Transport Canada and their company or association. We feel that there is something of a disconnect between the work done by those people on the ground and the work done by Transport Canada in its offices.Mr. Deluce, go ahead.Air safetyRobertDeluceRobertDeluce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]I would like to know whether the other two witnesses have anything to add.RobertDeluceMarkBeauregard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]My next question is for you, Mr. Donald. It's related to what you just said.You talked about recruitment difficulties. What could Transport Canada and the federal government do? When it comes to your companies, your organizations, as well as Transport Canada, we really feel that recruitment of personnel to ensure safety is a problem. We have heard other witnesses say the same thing. What is the solution? Is it to increase the number of spaces in universities, cégeps and colleges, do more promotion, put more money into the system? It is certainly not to lower the requirements so that more people pass. What is the solution after coming to your realizations, which are shared by many others?Air safetyRobertDonaldLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]You can give him more time to answer. This is an important issue.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableRobertDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I find the idea very appealing. We even have the parliamentary secretary here. In fact, I think the government should offer up her help to assist the committee. I have no doubt that, if the government is considering privatizing airports, it took safety-related considerations into account in its decision-making.I think the motion is entirely appropriate. I have trouble seeing how the committee could possibly vote against such a request.AirportsCommittee witnessesMinister of TransportPrivatizationLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses for being here, and for sharing their experiences with us.My first question is quite simple and is addressed to you, Mr. Speer. If you had any recommendations to make to Transport Canada to improve the situation, whether concerning the fatigue-related risk management system or any other improvement that could be made to ensure the safety of flights, passengers and material resources, what would they be?Air safetyFatigueRisk managementLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableAaronSpeer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]Could you point to other elements aside from fatigue that should be taken into account to ensure safety? Could you list the points we should prioritize, or make recommendations the committee could include in its report?Air safetyFatigueAaronSpeerAaronSpeer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]Thank you.I am going to give the rest of my speaking time to my colleague, Mr. Clement.Air safetyAaronSpeerLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1235)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all of you, especially for adapting to today's irregular schedule, due to the votes and motions that were introduced.My first question is for you, Mr. McConnell.The comments you made are almost frightening. A few weeks ago, some officials from Transport Canada appeared before the committee and stated that oversight was very active.Do you agree with that statement?I might even go a little further and ask you whether, in your opinion, the number of inspectors in the field has increased or decreased.Air safetyAviation safety inspectorsInspections and inspectorsLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableGregMcConnell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]My next question is somewhat related to that. In your presentation, you put a great deal of emphasis on Transport Canada's reduced ability to fulfill its duties in terms of assessment and rule enforcement.Could we say that something of a cultural secrecy exists within Transport Canada—a sort of a code of silence—in terms of telling it like it is? Can you give us further specific examples of deficiencies in the work those people have to do?Air safetyAviation safety inspectorsGregMcConnellGregMcConnell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]That is worrisome.Earlier, my colleague Mr. Aubin moved a motion to get the Minister of Transport to appear before us. We really would have liked to put a number of questions to him in the wake of the various comments you have shared. Unfortunately, that motion did not pass.Can you tell me when the International Civil Aviation Organization, or ICAO, last carried out an inspection on the current Transport Canada rules and inspection systems?How would you say Canada compares to other developed countries in that area?Air safetyAviation safety inspectorsGregMcConnellGregMcConnell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]Thank you very much.Mr. Richard, I would like to put a short question to you in light of your comment. Your brief says that Transport Canada decided to stop making certain documents available on its website. Have you asked Transport Canada any questions about that? What reasons have they given you?Air safetyFlight trainingGregMcConnellJean-MarieRichard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.My questions will be fairly simple and direct. Since I have more than one question, I would appreciate short answers.Over the past 10 or 15 years, has the number of flights in Canada and around the world increased?Air safetyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJohnMcKenna//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Perfect.Mr. Toering, do you agree with that figure?Air safetyJohnMcKennaRudyToering//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]My question will be simple.As the Honourable Mr. Justice said, I don't want to downplay the importance of each incident, but I would like to know if the percentage of incidents has increased over time. Does the fact that there are more flights have a direct impact of increasing the risk of incidents? It may not be our system that is completely upside down. As far as I know, Canada is one of the safest places in the world.Is my reasoning completely off? Does anyone want to venture an answer? I would like the other two witnesses to answer first because we haven't heard much from them so far. The Honourable Mr. Justice could answer next.Air accidentsAir safetyRudyToeringJohnMcKenna//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]You confirm that the percentage of incidents or accidents is decreasing, but it is a percentage and not an absolute number. I don't want to downplay the importance of working on this issue to continue improving things. As a percentage, would you say that the number of incidents or accidents has decreased?Air accidentsAir safetyJohnMcKennaJohnMcKenna//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]Yes, I understand. On a linear curve, we are seeing a trend. That's right.Do you have anything to add, Mr. Toering?Air safetyJohnMcKennaRudyToering//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]Perfect.I would like to make a comment about fees, which Mr. Moshansky addressed. I fully agree that there should be no increase in costs; it is already quite expensive. If the government wants to find money, there is a way to find it in the system. Believe me, there is money in the coffers of the federal, provincial and municipal governments. What is important is how to establish and manage priorities. If it is a priority, the government will make the decision to invest in the right places before further increasing the costs of Canadian users.I don't know if my question is directly related to that, but I'm asking it anyway.The Liberal government has clearly indicated its intention to assess the possibility of privatizing airports, in its objective to finance its infrastructure bank. It's not related to you, but I just want to put it into context. In your opinion, could the privatization of airports have an impact on aviation safety? There is a lot of concern about that. People say there is a great danger in this. It is managed by Transport Canada. Airports are national and institutionalized. Do you think there might be consequences to privatizing them?My question is for all three witnesses.Air safetyPrivatizationRudyToeringJohnMcKenna//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]You mean more competitive.Air safetyPrivatizationJohnMcKennaJohnMcKenna//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]Okay.Mr. Toering, what are your thoughts?JohnMcKennaRudyToering//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]That's fine. Continue in English.RudyToeringRudyToering//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.My first questions are for you, Mr. Hogan.I assume you are an aircraft pilot by training.Air safetyPilotsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMatthewHogan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]In terms of safety, we are taking a lot about pilots sleeping.That said, if there was an aviation safety inquiry, what other elements directly associated with the work of the pilots and involving risks to aviation safety should be studied as a matter of priority?Air safetyPilotsMatthewHoganMatthewHogan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]Okay, but I'd like to take advantage of your expertise to know, from the pilots' perspective, what we should be looking at to improve aviation safety. I'm not downplaying the other aspects. Several questions were asked, and I certainly learned a lot, including the 1/40 and 1/50 ratios, the impact of which I didn't really understand. Mr. Bray-Stone's response, which was excellent, managed to raise our awareness about this situation.Having said that, I would like to know, from the point of view of the pilots, which elements we should be addressing as a matter of priority.Air safetyMatthewHoganMatthewHogan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1255)[Translation]In the case of pilots, we're talking about sleep, which directly affects the individuals who control the aircraft. I repeat that I in no way want to minimize other aspects of safety. There have been cases in which the pilot was under the influence of alcohol. This has happened recently, and the case has been widely publicized. There will soon be the issue of marijuana legalization. However, since this substance can remain in the body for a fairly long time, the fact that a person has previously consumed it can cause a problem.I was wondering, since no one is perfect, if the airport security system could ensure that such unfortunate situations don't happen again. You'll no doubt say that the analogy isn't clear, but a representative of a trucking company questioned the safety of his business and wondered what oversight he could use to ensure that transport was done safely, taking into account the full impact the incidents may have.Does the current system ensure that pilots who take responsibility for the aircraft, passengers and equipment do so according to the rules?Air safetyPilotsMatthewHoganMatthewHogan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1110)[Translation]Madam Chair, out of respect for the witnesses who have taken the trouble to come here, I will be brief.I cannot in any way support my colleague Mr. Iacono's motion. I think that what was put forward by Mr. Berthold would allow us, following our assessment, to quickly submit recommendations to the government, without impinging upon the work of this committee on aviation safety.We could discuss this for a long time, but I think things are clear. People are intelligent enough to understand both motions and their respective intent. It will be my pleasure to support Mr. Berthold's motion.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Bratina, thank you for having come to present your bill to the committee.I would first like to ask you which groups and stakeholders you consulted to prepare your bill.Drinking waterLeadPublic consultationWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]Before I ask my next question, I'd like to make this comment. I was so excited at the idea of asking my question that I forgot to mention that we have in our audience several master's students from the École nationale d'administration publique, the ENAP, in Quebec. Professor Rémy Trudel is accompanying them. They are going to be spending the first hour here with us to see how things are done. I just wanted to let you know who these people are. I thank them for being here with us.I will ask my question immediately. The students will be able to see that we have a short period of time to ask our questions.This issue is very close to municipalities, since the buildings and service lines are directly on their territory. Some of them have already started to put certain programs into effect.Why do you think the federal government should play a role in this change, which is quite considerable, and will likely also be quite costly?Drinking waterLeadWater supplyBobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney CreekBobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]How much speaking time do I have left?BobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]Mr. Bratina, I hear what you are saying very clearly. Municipal water lines allow the water to reach all of the homes and buildings. Perhaps you will have the opportunity of speaking to other stakeholders, since my time will soon be up, but I'd like to know why, in your opinion, the federal government should infringe on jurisdictions that are to me of a municipal nature.In order for this aspect to be prioritized, certain conditions would have to be imposed on the sums to be transferred, for example, through the fuel tax. I think there are already conditions related to water quality in the municipalities that want to use money from that program.I'm convinced you will be able to answer that question, directly or indirectly.Drinking waterGovernment loansLeadWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to go back to the questions I asked earlier. I think we all agree on the importance of this dossier which relates to public health. That said, I am still trying to determine what we could do. You are a Liberal member. This issue affects municipalities and provinces. In fact, in Quebec, all of the data has been compiled. The issue here is the quality of water. Like me, some members here were once mayors. Our objective is to provide a good quality of life to citizens. We are directly responsible for that. If we do not do that, we will be held publicly responsible and citizens will make a decision subsequently.This involves service lines that belong to municipalities, and pipes that are on residents' land, and so are private property. We are talking either about residents, or the owners of private buildings. The government has launched an ambitious infrastructure program. All it has to do is include its conditions with transfer payments to the provinces. I am still trying to see what the committee can do to help things go forward.The Federation of Canadian Municipalities does not seem to want to make this a priority. It is in contact with the representatives of municipalities everywhere. If this were an urgent issue for it, it would be the first to act. I imagine that we will hear from lawyers tomorrow morning regarding class action suits against locations that are aware of the problem but are doing nothing to support their citizens.Could you tell me what you expect from us that your government cannot already do in the context of its next budget, which it will table in three weeks?Drinking waterLeadPublic healthWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1150)[Translation]I will reformulate the question.I think we all agree with what you have been saying, with the facts. No one is challenging them. That said, the research done by my team indicates that a fair number of municipalities that are aware of the issue have already begun to act. Others are recalcitrant or delinquent; I don't know what term one should use in this case. The buildings, for instance the schools, fall under provincial jurisdiction. The provinces also build the hospitals. The municipal service lines are paid for through government programs. I am still trying to see what more we can do, aside from what the Liberal government can do, as it has an ambitious infrastructure program.I would tend to advise you to go and see the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities to suggest that they impose conditions or launch an awareness program through Health Canada in order to apprise all municipalities of this problem. They are in a position to let them know that they have work to do. This remains a matter of provincial and municipal jurisdiction. We simply need to find a way of informing these people.Can you tell me clearly what you expect from the committee, so that I may promote it, so that a study can be done and so that you can move this forward?For the time being, I am still trying to understand.Drinking waterLeadWater supplyBobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney CreekBobBratinaHamilton East—Stoney Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]I simply want to say...Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]In fact, I am not against what he said, but I simply want to add that the students and the professor have to leave us. I don't know if the member made that request to be nice to them, but they are going to the parliamentary restaurant and have another meeting afterwards. I am not impugning the intention behind the request. I just wanted you to know why they would be leaving.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekRobertAubinTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Yes. This does not detract from the importance of the motion.RobertAubinTrois-RivièresJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]I agree with what other members have said.I don't know how we should proceed, but I suggest that we provide the member with a written reply in which we say that we are sensitive to the problem, that we are fully aware of it, and that in order to help him we recommend that the question be referred to the Standing Committee on Health. Indeed, that committee will be in a better position than we are to make the necessary recommendations to the government. We would also recommend that he continue his awareness- raising work with the various departments. This will give Mr. Bratina the additional tools he needs to continue his work.Our committee is aware of the problem. We do not deny it at all, quite the opposite. However, we think that this is a matter of health, first and foremost. In fact, whenever we asked him what we could do, he always brought us back to issues involving people's health. I felt that he was one of those people who are aware of the problem and its consequences on children and human beings, but who feel somewhat powerless. This really is a health issue.For the rest, honestly, it is up to the government to decide if it wants to invest and include criteria in its programs, as it did for the fuel tax. As I said earlier, for those who don't know, the municipalities in Quebec have to use the funds collected through the fuel tax to resolve water quality issues first. If they do not do that, they cannot use the money for other purposes. They have to make that a priority under the agreement negotiated between the federal government and the province.On the Quebec Department of Environment website, you can see all of the work that has been done on this, and to encourage the municipalities to correct things quickly. Perhaps we could refer to that.Committee businessDrinking waterLeadWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Would it be possible to keep it to one meeting initially? Then, if need be, we could schedule another. If we wanted to conduct a serious study, as the chair pointed out, it could go on for a year. We want to help the member make progress on the issue. It seems to me that we could hold a first meeting, and then figure out whether a second is necessary, whether we could take it further.I'd also like to discuss the types of witnesses we would want to bring in to help us make the decision.Personally, I don't think this is for the committee to deal with. I think that it's in the government's hands, that the government could take the necessary steps. If, however, we absolutely have to have these meetings, I will get on board. That said, we have many other issues in the mix right now, files in which we can have a real impact. I say let's start with one meeting and go from there in terms of how best to proceed.Committee businessDrinking waterLeadWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Does that work for you, Mr. Fraser?Committee businessDrinking waterLeadWater supplyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSeanFraserCentral Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to all the witnesses for taking the time today to come to tell us about their initiatives and their expertise.My first question goes to Mr. Lessard. First of all, I would like everyone to know that we know each other very well. Mr. Lessard was the Managing Director of the Ville de Victoriaville when I was its mayor. So I am very familiar with most of the projects going on in the city, as well with as a number of the difficulties that the various programs cause for small and medium-sized municipalities. Mr. Lessard, in your presentation, you mentioned two problems, two future issues for your municipality. The first was about the funding for infrastructures and the second was about e-commerce.My first question is about the infrastructures. We know that the federal government currently wants to invest billions of dollars in infrastructure. The first idea that comes to people's minds when they hear talk of infrastructures is concrete, asphalt, bridges and tunnels. It is rare to hear talk about technological infrastructures that should be put in place in various areas and that the witnesses who have appeared at the committee today have talked about.When a call for tenders goes out, people do not necessarily have the standards involved. I asked this question last week and I am now also asking you. Should the government establish technological standards for calls for tender, as it does for the environmental standards that are being included in calls for tender? The first criterion considered in tendering is the price. Efficiency and economies of scale are not necessarily considered. Could the idea of having technological, smart standards be helpful for municipalities so that they can look to the future in the projects they want to establish?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableMartinLessard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]My second question is along the same lines.Do you have the impression that current federal programs give municipalities that autonomy so that they can implement projects that allow them to be smarter? Or do the feds try to control things, given that the municipalities are the third level of government?Do you feel you have the autonomy you need to do what you want to do? Would it not be preferable for allocated funds to be decentralized, accepting that you will subsequently have to account for them, so that municipalities can be more proactive and can work more quickly with the private businesses in their area, so that they can move their projects forward?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureMartinLessardMartinLessard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]I have one last question.You talked about e-commerce. What challenge do municipalities face in these times when more and more people are buying online, especially the generation behind us? What kind of assistance could be provided to municipalities to help them meet that challenge? Cities and townsElectronic commerceInformation technologyInfrastructureMartinLessardLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank my colleague for the time she is giving me.Mr. Lessard, I want to tie back to what was just said. You are the managing director of a central municipality in a region, in an RCM. I know that the Bécancour RCM, which is not very far from yours, has a project to connect all its municipalities. You are also working on something.How could that be done directly by the municipal world if the government agreed to decentralize the money in order to help move the project forward? Would there be a potential solution?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all the witnesses, especially the Parliamentary Budget Officer, for taking the time to meet with us.This is an issue my team and I are following closely. When your report was published, a number of the concerns we had when we read the data as it became available were confirmed.In the table you provided, you did indicate that the cost of the program was $13.9 billion and that $3.9 billion of that total has been spent. According to your forecasts in the second table, $2.7 billion will actually have been spent in this fiscal year.What would you say explains the difference between what the government had announced and the results you have arrived at through your research?Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructureInvestmentLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableJean-DenisFréchette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1205)[Translation]Great.When you talk about this, you also say that you have not found a mechanism to track that money. Investing in infrastructure is not a bad thing in itself, but I think that the government is extremely ambitious. In a context where we are hearing about all those amounts that will be carried over to the next fiscal year, how can we be reassured as taxpayers' elected representatives? We are handling their money, which they worked hard to earn and they put in our hands. Can we have confidence in this plan? The projected budget for the next year is already very ambitious, in addition to everything that is being added. Moreover, you are telling me that there is no mechanism in place to track the money.Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructureInvestmentJean-DenisFréchetteJean-DenisFréchette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]You know, it will soon be two years since these people have been there, and we are told that they will be publishing a report. As representatives of the opposition, we have reason to be very concerned.Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructurePeterWeltmanPeterWeltman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]You are quite right to do so, and I congratulate you for that work. I think you have shed some light on certain things. The fact that this has to be done by a neutral group that is not partisan like us clearly points to a big problem. Billions of dollars have to be invested.This leads me to my second question.We were contacted by elected representatives from smaller and medium-sized municipalities. Your report indicates that the vast majority of the sums that will be invested will be in more populated areas. In fact, if we look at this from the political point of view, we can see clearly that Liberals are the members in those areas, in large centres like Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver particularly. The expenses you have set out are in these large centres for the most part.Following your analysis, do you have the impression that that could change, or is this a firm trend at this time?Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructurePeterWeltmanJean-DenisFréchette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1235)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Fréchette, two things were mentioned earlier that concern me, that is to say the amounts of money that have not been spent, and the lack of performance measurement mechanisms, or monitoring of the projects. Mr. Hardie asked you if you had any recommendations to make in this regard.My question is extremely simple: is it normal that we have to tell a government, or a private organization or a municipality, to give itself a tool that will allow it to monitor its projects? This is said to be an ambitious plan, and the government wants to invest in the area of infrastructure. Given that context, should those performance measures not be there as a matter of course? We expect that officials will have in place a grid or some type of follow-up software. This would allow you to follow the audits and sound the alarm bell if need be.Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJean-DenisFréchette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1235)[Translation]I am by ricochet going to talk about the Canada Infrastructure Bank, which was a surprise this year.A sum of $15 billion had already been set aside to support the municipalities in their infrastructure projects, and then it was transferred to this infrastructure bank. In your report, you inform us that this bank will be subject to somewhat less direct parliamentary monitoring.When the minister and his acolytes came here, I asked them what the selection criteria would be for community projects. Mr. Aubin also emphasized that aspect. One of the minister's acolytes answered that the choices would be based on performance, that is to say that they would determine if the project was of interest to the investors. As a legislator and as a member of Parliament, I can tell you that that aspect bothers me particularly.I asked a second question to know who would be making the decision to accept or reject a project in the context of this infrastructure bank, a body that is parallel to government. The reply was that they had not yet looked at that aspect and were working on it.The creation of the Infrastructure Bank was announced, and the fact that $15 billion would be transferred to it. And yet the Liberals cannot tell us today after being in power for two years who will be responsible for accountability over these funds. Does this mean that the elected representatives will lose control of this money? The government already has full control of the infrastructure budget, and yet there are no accountability measures in place.Given all that, is it normal to worry about the infrastructure bank that the government will create?Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructureJean-DenisFréchetteJean-DenisFréchette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]No. I think people are fighting to have it either in Montreal or Toronto.Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructureJean-DenisFréchetteJean-DenisFréchette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]In light of what the minister and his acolytes answered when they came before the committee, will the Canada Infrastructure Bank be a part of the various follow-up reports you are going to prepare next year? Will we be apprised of your overall perspective on this file?Our party is very concerned about the money that was supposed to go to the infrastructure fund for the municipalities. We are told that it will have to generate a yield.I relate this to small and medium-sized municipalities. I asked the minister to name a single project that could be financed in a small or medium municipality through the Canada Infrastructure Bank. I can understand that the minister may not know the file from stem to stern, but none of his officials was able to name one single project.Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructureJean-DenisFréchetteJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]You can answer with yes or no.Canada’s New Infrastructure Plan: 1st Report to Parliament – Following the MoneyDepartmental results reportsInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJean-DenisFréchette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]Thank you.Jean-DenisFréchetteJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1115)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to the witnesses for the time they are devoting to the committee today and their help with its work.My first question is for you, Madam Heron.I would first like to congratulate you. I am very happy to have heard what you said. To my knowledge, this is the first time we have heard a witness express such concern about small and medium-sized municipalities.In this study, we have only heard from representatives of large cities. The situation of the smallest communities is one of my personal concerns. The fact that a municipality of 65,000 people was able to propel itself to the level of smart cities is very interesting, I think. I would like you to tell us more about how you did it in your municipality.One of the important issues is Internet connectivity. The government has a budget of $500 million for that. I think that's peanuts, given that we are talking about connecting all the regional municipalities in Canada.What can we do if we don't have access to that connectivity? Do you think municipalities can manage to connect without federal support?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInternetJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekCathyHeron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]Has your municipality, which has 65,000 inhabitants, had access to federal programs to carry out its smart city project, or is it a local initiative, carried out by people and organizations that have taken charge? Cities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyInfrastructureCathyHeronCathyHeron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]Okay.In my view, there will never be enough money to solve society's problems, particularly in terms of infrastructure. I have a strong feeling that, in large municipalities, population density means that it would be profitable for private companies to invest in digital infrastructure or projects, but that would be impossible in small municipalities. As you rightly said, a municipality of 1,000, 2,000 or 3,000 people has only one or two employees. The same person acts as secretary, treasurer, general manager and the one who supports the municipal council.Should the government give priority to funding small and medium-sized municipalities in order to build infrastructure in places where the private sector has no interest in doing so?Should it, at least, support the private sector to generate a certain profit, so that municipalities can access the infrastructure and then develop smart city projects? If not, do you think there should be a bigger project where the best one wins?In that case, we know how things tend to unfold, given that big cities have resources, are faster, use their contacts and their lobbyists, and get a bigger piece of the pie. As a result, the regions are again left to their own devices.Cities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyInfrastructureCathyHeronCathyHeron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1220)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to thank the witnesses for appearing before us.My first question is for you, Ms. Hamm.I want to point out to the people here that I know Ms. Hamm very well, since I worked with her for a long time at the Union of Municipalities of Quebec.Ms. Hamm, could you please mention a few concrete actions that are being taken in municipalities the same size as yours, which is considered a medium-sized municipality, and which are in line with the development of a smart city?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekVicki-MayHamm//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]Okay. Thank you.Before I forget, I want to add, before asking my other question, that you mentioned a study on 35 communities around the world. Can this study be found in a report? Is there a document that includes everything you analyzed?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureVicki-MayHammVicki-MayHamm//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]Okay. Thank you.I see the clerk nodding to indicate that the analysts will take care of obtaining the document.I want you to speak a bit more about the open data issue. You provided examples for different levels of government, or at least for Quebec. One intergovernmental organization out of two or three makes the data available.Why is certain data currently not available? Is it a regulation or legislation issue? Is it the result of the culture of organizations, which aren't very interested in sharing the information?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureOpen dataVicki-MayHammVicki-MayHamm//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]One last question comes to mind. What has the federal government done, what is it currently doing and what can it do in the future to help you develop the concept of a smart city at the Union des municipalités du Québec or as the mayor of Magog?In addition, if you had to make a recommendation that the committee could include in its report to help you improve your work, make your job easier and continue to develop, what would the recommendation be? Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInternetVicki-MayHammVicki-MayHamm//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1230)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Hamm.Vicki-MayHammVicki-MayHamm//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1255)[Translation] Thank you, Madam Chair.I'll ask Ms. Hamm my question and I'll try to be brief.We know how complicated calls for bids can be in municipalities. There are many constraints involved, and cost is the first criterion used in most cases to determine the winning company. More and more often, there's a desire to include a criterion for environmental standards in calls for bids. It's a real conundrum.What would you say if, for example, the federal government implemented a smart technology standard in the calls for bids to take into account a project's shortcomings over the longer term and not simply cost? It could be worthwhile.Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInvitation to tenderJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1300)[Translation]I can confirm that we're able to propose someone who will be ready to speak.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1125)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Grondin, how does the City of Québec measure up as a smart city in relation to other major cities around the country and the world?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekHugoGrondin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]Could you share with us some concrete measures that the City of Québec has taken in the way of smart infrastructure?I live near the City of Québec, and I often go skiing in the area. I can tell you that traffic doesn't always flow smoothly. We hear a lot about Montreal, but I think the situation in the City of Québec is similar at certain times of the day.What steps have you taken in that regard? What so-called smart infrastructure measures have you taken, aside from public transit?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructurePublic transitHugoGrondinHugoGrondin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]We know about the system.Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureHugoGrondinHugoGrondin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]I see.Is the municipality partnering with the private sector at all? I am thinking of companies like Uber, which provides signals, and other high-tech companies that are open about the fact that they have access to technology government and municipalities don't. Their contribution could be brought to bear if they weren't seen as competitors. Everyone is familiar with the Uber issue in Quebec. You have been involved, in your region, as well.Is your municipality partnering with these private companies with a view to making improvements? That brings me back to the issue of traffic flow, which is a huge problem right now.Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructurePrivate sectorHugoGrondinHugoGrondin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1130)[Translation]Very well.How could the federal government help you make traffic and transit improvements? I'd rather not focus too much on public transit but, rather, on other issues. The problems are known, and they are on everyone's mind.Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureHugoGrondinHugoGrondin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1130)[Translation] Would you say the government's current programs always focus on concrete building projects? That is my impression, and I think the situation is the same at the provincial level.We rarely hear about technology or measures that could be taken to improve traffic flow and, inevitably, residents' quality of life.Cities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyInfrastructureHugoGrondinHugoGrondin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1130)[Translation]Great.We talked about transportation. Security-wise, do you have any concerns about the data-sharing measure you talked about in the beginning? You mentioned open data and making information accessible to residents and, I imagine, private businesses interested in developing new applications to support the services available to the public.Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureHugoGrondinHugoGrondin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much.Thank you, Madam Chair.HugoGrondinJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My first question is for you, Ms. Scassa.You pointed out a number of yellow flags and warnings as regards privacy issues.Could you suggest some solutions since this is a real concern for all levels of government? We are caught in the middle. If we want to move forward, we need data, but how far would we be willing to go to protect that data?What would you recommend to the committee so that it can move forward, not hold things up, and not stand in the way of progress?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekTeresaScassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1230)[Translation]On my Apple phone, I have access to Facebook and Twitter. I truly believe that all these multinationals already have access to all my personal information. I do not honestly think it is protected. I think they have access to it somewhere on a server.Is it reasonable to expect that, given a government structure which I would go so far as to describe as archaic as regards the evolution of society—and that includes all orders of government, regardless of political parties—, it is possible to create legislation with regard to all this information and be confident that it is handled appropriately and safely by companies? In your view, would it be unrealistic to expect that?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructurePrivacy of personal recordsTeresaScassaTeresaScassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1230)[Translation]Okay. I just have a few seconds left so I will hand it over to a colleague. My next question was for another witness and might have taken some time.Thank you very much.TeresaScassaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Minister, my thanks to you and your colleagues, who support you in this work, for being here with us today. Since my questions are about the Infrastructure Bank only, I would like your answers to follow suit.Can you confirm whether $15 billion of $35 billion earmarked for the Infrastructure Bank comes from the budget previously announced in 2016?Is that really the case?Canada Infrastructure BankCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInvestmentJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]Very well. You answered my question.Yes or no, will the additional $20 billion come from the sale of government assets?Canada Infrastructure BankCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInvestmentAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJean-FrançoisTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1140)[Translation]Okay. Thank you.During the discussions, it was mentioned that, for the projects authorized by the bank to be profitable for investors, the projects must be over $100 million. There was even talk of projects of more than $500 million in the various discussions that took place. Just now, in response to Mr. Aubin’s question, I heard Mr. Tremblay say that the projects that will dictate decisions will be those able to attract investors.At the same time, let’s look at the document produced on the middle class in the fall, the economic statement. Mr. Minister, in your presentation, you said that the projects you will want to handle with the $15 million are green infrastructure projects, social infrastructure projects in various communities, transit projects and projects in rural and northern communities. Is that correct?Could you tell me how a small municipality in a region—say, for instance, Daveluyville in my riding, which has 2,000 residents—could have access to a grant, a loan or any financial assistance from the Canada Infrastructure Bank, for a water filtration plant project, which is essential for the development of its small economic park and of the community? That would allow investors to have their piece of the pie.Let me point out that, before being elected as an MP a year and a half ago, I was the mayor of a municipality with 45,000 people, which is in the centre of my riding. I can tell you that never in my life have I seen any projects that could generate profit for investors in those sorts of municipalities. They are in large centres such as Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver.Can you answer my question?Mr. Tremblay could confirm what I’m saying. Based on what he said, attractive projects are needed for investors. What will happen in the small municipalities?Canada Infrastructure BankCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInvestmentAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Just give me one example of a project that could be profitable for investors in small municipalities. Just one example, that’s all.Your colleagues can help you find one.Voices: Oh, oh!Canada Infrastructure BankCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInvestmentAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Minister, I'll have to interrupt you.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Minister, my priority is to ask questions.I know that he's the minister and that he gets priority in the House of Commons.Canada Infrastructure BankCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Thank you.I would like you to tell me about a project that might be appealing to private investors and that could be carried out in a small or medium-sized community anywhere in Canada. Just name one.You can turn to your officials who are here to support you, because I can imagine that, with all the work that you have, you did not have time to study the various projects in the communities. Please give me one example, not 10 or five, just one. You are saying that billions of dollars are invested in Canada's communities.Canada Infrastructure BankCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInvestmentJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Thank you.Unfortunately, I am not satisfied with the answer that you gave me.I have another question for you.Who will be responsible for authorizing those projects through the Canada Infrastructure Bank? Is it the priority of the government or the priority of the board of directors and the managers of the fund? Who will be choosing the projects that the Canada Infrastructure Bank will be funding?Mr. Campbell, would you like to answer the question?Canada Infrastructure BankCities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyInfrastructureAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsGlennCampbell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Campbell—GlennCampbellJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1235)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to the witnesses for being here with us today. I think everyone's excited about this topic, although we haven't been discussing it very long.Mr. Courville, I'm not sure I have fully grasped something you said earlier in your remarks.In your view, how does Canada fare compared to the other countries in the world in terms of the development of smart cities?Cities and townsInformation technologyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGrantCourville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]At our last meeting, witnesses said that Canada was dead last when it came to developing smart cities.Is that what you think?Cities and townsInformation technologyGrantCourvilleGrantCourville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]What advice would you give to the government for implementing a program to support the development of smart cities?Cities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyGrantCourvilleGrantCourville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1240)[Translation]I would like to hear what you have to say on the role of the private sector in the development of smart cities, electric vehicles and so on.In Quebec, there was quite a war between the private sector and the government over the Uber system. There really seems to be a divide between governments and new technology. Instead of the two working in partnership, it seems that these people are seen as enemies of the system in place.Do you also feel that the private sector is not considered to be a real partner in development projects as it should be?Cities and townsInformation technologyPrivate sectorGrantCourvilleGrantCourville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to the witnesses for being here with us today.My first question is for you, Mr. Kirk.You said that, when we compare ourselves to the other countries around the world, we are dead last when it comes to self-driving cars. Why are we last? What is the explanation?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBarrieKirk//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]In your view, what is the role of the state and of the federal government if we want to move ahead and become a world leader again? What should the government's role be specifically in terms of self-driving cars?Automated vehiclesCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureBarrieKirkBarrieKirk//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1120)[Translation]Let me stop you there.Could you forward the white paper to the Clerk of the Committee so that we can have access to those 30 recommendations that seem very useful?Please continue.Automated vehiclesCities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureBarrieKirkJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]Thank you.Go on, Mr. Kirk.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBarrieKirk//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]Let me clarify my question.What should the state's role be in this system? Where should it invest? What support could it provide?Cities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyInfrastructureBarrieKirkBarrieKirk//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1125)[Translation]Thank you.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1235)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to make a brief comment.I was also surprised to hear Mr. Badawey's comments, which are a veiled suggestion that we may not be working in the interest of Canadians. I think it's very clear that we are working in their interest.As for the somewhat moralizing tone about how to proceed, I don't think the Liberal Party can teach anyone any lessons about how to work. The committee has work to do. The department has work to do. The Minister also has advisors who are quite familiar with how each organization works. I think it was done voluntarily. There was an intention. Rather than trying to dump responsibility on a motion that, I think, is entirely legitimate in the circumstances, especially given the remarks of the witnesses themselves, we should show some humility here.Personally, I think Mr. Aubin's proposal is very interesting.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1300)[Translation]Since our meeting is public, I would like to take this opportunity—Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. I would also like to congratulate Mr. Miller.Mr. Miller, I am looking forward to asking questions and hearing your replies during the question and answer period. Congratulations on your appointment. I also thank the three witnesses for taking the time to come and meet with us.Before I start, I'd like to tell you that before being a federal member of Parliament, I was the mayor of a municipality of 45,000 inhabitants. In fact, I left that position not that long ago. This matter was already being talked about a great deal at the Union des Municipalités du Québec, of which I was the vice-chair. I think this is of particular interest for many cities.My first questions are for you, Mr. Slack, but before I ask them, I'd like you to clarify something.In the agenda we received, it says that you represent the City of Mississauga, but I think the president said earlier that you represent the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. Are you here in both capacities? I would simply like to know which hat you are wearing.Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekShawnSlack//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]Thank you for that clarification.I was happy to hear you say at the start that in 2017, the population expects—in fact, it has expected this for some time—to have access to the Internet not only at home, but everywhere: in public places, in downtown cores, in parks, and in the various sports and cultural buildings.When you purchase something now, a paper guide is no longer included. We go and get information on the Internet, from wherever we are. A modern city must be current and meet that need, not only for reasons of efficiency, but also for convenience, and to improve the quality of life of our citizens.You work for a large city. Personally, I have concerns that center on small and medium-sized municipalities. The city of Montreal, in Quebec, claims to be a smart city, on the cutting edge and so on. However, before we even think about smart cities, we have to consider the fact that there are hundreds of communities not only in Quebec but throughout Canada that still do not have access to a certain level of Internet dependability and speed.The Federation of Canadian Municipalities does not only include large cities. Are these concerns a part of the federation's current work?Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureInternetShawnSlackShawnSlack//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1230)[Translation]I won't ask you if you consider that a $500 million amount, over a certain numbers of years, would be enough to connect all of Canada. I think we all know the answer to that question.What projects have you completed in the city of Mississauga that involved federal aid? Have you had access to particular programs, and if so, could you mention one or two where the federal government was able to help you in the work involved in making Mississauga the smart city it is today?Cities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyInfrastructureShawnSlackShawnSlack//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1230)[Translation]Thank you very much.ShawnSlackJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1300)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. If I have done the math correctly, I still have two minutes left.I would like to get back to you, Mr. Slack, and I'm going to clarify the question I asked previously.Could you cite one program from the government's latest budget that gave you access to funds to help you realize your smart city projects? How can the federal government help you today, with the tools that are in place, to develop your smart city or any other city in that regard? Since you work directly in that field, can you mention one program?Cities and townsGovernment assistanceInformation technologyInfrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekShawnSlack//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1300)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Andrishak, in your first comment, you referred to the importance of the private sector. In most of the actions that are taken, either municipally—where I came from—federally or provincially, the importance of the private sector in the development of smart cities and new technologies is hardly ever mentioned.Not too long ago, I met one of the executives from Uber. He spoke to me about everything he could do to improve traffic management if his company, whenever it arrives in a municipality, were not perceived as an enemy—as we saw in Montreal—but rather as an ally of the government.I would like to hear what you think about that.Cities and townsInformation technologyInfrastructureShawnSlackGaryAndrishak//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0950)[Translation]Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like you to clarify something for me before we get going. I want to check whether we are indeed meeting with the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities next Thursday to talk about the infrastructure bank.RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0950)[Translation]That's great.Is he going to be here for both hours of the meeting?RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0950)[Translation]Very good, so we can expect to meet with the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities next Thursday.Will he be here for the first or second hour of the meeting?RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1040)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'd like to thank the witnesses for joining us.My first question is for the NAV CANADA officials.Could you tell us a little more about existing regulations elsewhere in the world? Are we really behind on this? Are there things that others have done right that we should take into account?RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekRudyKellar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1040)[Translation]Thank you. I will stop there.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0850)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you for being with us this morning, Mr. Schwartz, particularly since this is the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, and you work in procurement. We learned that the people from Infrastructure Canada and the Treasury Board decided not to appear before our committee, since they believed it was not the appropriate place to discuss this bill. We have thought the same since the beginning. In our opinion, this bill should, instead, have been examined by the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.In your document, you talk about $7.5 billion dollars and you say that 72 per cent of the business volumes is awarded to businesses in local communities. You even say 90 per cent in some sectors.Is that correct?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)Government assistanceInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0850)[Translation]As a result, that helps local enterprises in the communities where the projects are carried out.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)Government assistanceInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0850)[Translation]I can confirm, as a former mayor, that when you have projects that receive government funding, that is more or less the figures you get. Between 85 and 90 per cent of projects are awarded to local enterprises, which is easy to explain when you consider transportation costs and the proximity of the enterprises.You are giving me fairly substantial figures and percentages. What would this bill do, on top of that, to support local communities? Do you not have the power, already, to do the same things when you are preparing tenders?I have looked at this from every angle, and I still think that all of this does nothing but add more red tape and administration. Some people have talked to us about that aspect. It remains to be verified once the tender is launched.What are you not able to do at this time that this bill will enable you to do?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)Government assistanceInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]And yet you are able to determine the percentages. How do you do that if you do not have access to that information at present? You said that 92 per cent or 72 per cent of business volumes contracted went to local enterprises, and, at the same time, that you need to have access to this information. You must have got it somewhere.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]Would you be able, today, at the point when tenders are being prepared, to ask enterprises to have a certain number of apprentices or a certain percentage of aboriginal workers or people with certain disabilities? What would prevent you from including that in your tenders today? I think you have complete power to do that today.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]The bill says: "the Minister may ... ." There is therefore nothing that requires her to do that.You could do it today. Is there something in the legislation that prevents you from including those terms when you draft your tenders?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]I come from a municipality and I have put out a number of tenders. There is a form, and the people who want to bid have to fill it out. If the tender document says that you need this information, but the form in question is not filled out, their proposal is automatically rejected. There are terms to be complied with and boxes to fill in. They have to fulfil the requirements.Is there something that prevents you from including your requirements?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]I understand.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]We have understood very clearly, but I want to know whether there is something that prevents you from doing it today. A number of people have talked to us and we have looked into it. To our knowledge, there is nothing that prevents you from doing everything that is there.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]Thank you very much. You just needed to signal me earlier.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0905)[Translation]I would ask for the vote, myself.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsRobertAubinTrois-RivièresJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair, but I am not going to add anything. After hearing my colleagues' comments, I am in complete shock.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)Clause-by-clause studyInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0945)[Translation]Yes, Madam Chair. I have my thoughts back in order. However, every time I hear things, I get shivers.You say you do not want to make the job harder, you do not want to create pressure, it will not be the Minister making the decision, and you want to simplify the process to help small and medium-sized enterprises. I hear all that. However, in Bill C-227, which is what we have before us, it clearly says: "The Minister may" and "A contracting party shall, upon request by the Minister, ... ."In my view, this bill gives the Minister the power to decide whether or not she wants to request information. As I understand it, however, the officials could decide by themselves and would not always be required to go to the Minister, so as not to complicate the system.I am hearing two different things from my colleagues. It varies from motion to motion and from provision to provision. When it suits, they agree to it, but if it does not suit, they reject it.I am finding it hard to imagine how this could be requested afterward, when you already have full power to request this in your tenders. Forgive me, but I am still trying to find out what more this bill will add to the power you already have at present. I really feel like I am hearing what my constituents say to me in my riding. I am trying to defend the officials, because I think there are excellent, effective people in the government bureaucracy, at all levels. Unfortunately, I really have the impression that this kind of bill adds more bureaucracy to the machine. I completely fail to see what more this is going to give you.That being said, this is not really a question. I realize that it is more of a comment.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)Clause-by-clause studyInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDavidSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0950)[Translation]If the Chair allows you, I allow you.DavidSchwartzJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0950)[Translation]Mr. Schwartz, we are being asked to make a decision on a bill without knowing what type of criteria or projects you are going to analyze or propose to the Minister. At present, we are completely in the dark and so we are not able to make our own recommendations.It amounts to you asking us to write you a blank cheque, after which you will propose the criteria to the Minister for applying the requirement of requesting information from bidders or communities. You are simply asking us to write you a blank cheque. It amounts to letting the government say, to whoever wants to hear it, that it is concerned about communities, but it cannot tell them yet what those criteria are, and that will be left to the discretion of the Minister and the officials.I am sorry, but I really have the feeling we have been going in circles for the last four meetings. We are sitting in a public meeting. The people listening to us have to wonder how we can be getting paid today for discussing this.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)Clause-by-clause studyInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsDavidSchwartzJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0925)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to thank the two witnesses for being with us today.You talked about possibly amending our regulations to bring them into line with U.S. regulations. Can you tell us about what is happening elsewhere in the world? Are there other elements that we should consider, given what is happening elsewhere in the world?I would like to hear from both of you on this.You may begin, Mr. Johnson.RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDougJohnson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0930)[Translation]It would be interesting to have them.You have the floor, Mr. Wilcox.RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftDougJohnsonStephenWilcox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0930)[Translation]Mr. Wilcox, you mentioned a rule that provides that drones cannot be operated within a 9-kilometre radius of an airport. Is that correct?RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftStephenWilcoxStephenWilcox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0930)[Translation]That's perfect.Do you have technologies or tools to monitor and make sure there are no drones in that environment? If there is a technology, I imagine that major international airports do that monitoring well. On the other hand, I do not think that small and medium-sized municipalities that have regional airports have access to those protective technologies, especially since the aircraft that use those airports do not usually have an electronic system and are flown by sight. Is that correct?Aerial surveillanceRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftStephenWilcoxStephenWilcox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0935)[Translation]If you detect a drone, how would you respond if it entered that zone? Would it be possible to bring it down? Are there electronic fences? Perhaps a bazooka could be fired at it to prevent it from reaching its destination? I do not really know what the solution might be.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Alain Rayes: I imagine there must be some way to bring it down. Aerial surveillanceRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftStephenWilcoxJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1030)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My questions are for the Transport Canada representatives.In your speech, you said that your provincial, territorial, and municipal counterparts are also struggling to find a way to make sure that this technology is used safely and respectfully.I am a former mayor of a municipality of 45,000 people. At that time, we had a lot of concerns about protecting privacy, especially as regards citizens using surveillance cameras. That was even before drone use became widespread.Moreover, our clerks did not have much information about this when we had to manage security and privacy issues involving the use of surveillance cameras. We were not even talking about drones, but people were saying that something was certainly going to happen. They also wondered who would manage the issue, the Sûreté du Québec, municipal police, or the RCMP.My first question is as follows. Which municipal stakeholders have you consulted, whether organizations or individuals? I would like to know a bit more about this because, to my knowledge, it has not been discussed in Quebec, at least not at the two municipal groups.Federal-provincial-territorial relationsRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAaronMcCrorie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1035)[Translation]My question is for Mr. Boucher or Mr. Domoney.As regards safety, do you have discussions with your counterparts on other provincial or municipal police forces?Federal-provincial-territorial relationsRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftLaureenKinneyByronBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1035)[Translation]As regards public safety for airports and businesses, I am not worried about you finding the right regulations or procedures. At the municipal level, however, my first reaction is to say that there could be a number of problems.At events held in the municipalities, for instance, people often use drones for recreational purposes, whether to fly over a site or to take pictures and videos. There could be risks, however, when there is a crowd or a mob. Consider the summer festival in Quebec City where 100,000 people gather on the Plains of Abraham.I have a number of concerns in this regard. Does this enter into your thoughts or your preparations in order to give tools to the municipalities?Among municipal by-laws, police security, and Transport Canada security, I think people's natural reaction is to say it is under federal jurisdiction, that it is their problem, everyone washes their hands of it. Citizens, however, will turn to the municipality, the municipal council or the mayor in search of a quick solution. The objective is something effective for companies and individuals. Privacy and data protectionRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftSafetyByronBoucherAaronMcCrorie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1040)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. I have no further questions.LaureenKinneyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0935)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I saw that you had your hand up and I felt that you wanted to react to the previous comments. I have a question for you and then I will let you continue with the subject. If there are things that you want to add, I will give you the rest of my time to do so, since my colleague who had the floor before me asked essentially the same questions that I find very interesting and wanted to ask you too. Having said that, I do not quite agree with my predecessor’s comments. I believe that the industry and government have a common responsibility to establish clear rules. I am convinced that this technology is here to stay. In any case, evolution cannot be stopped. The industry is clearly going to keep adapting. I don’t want the government to pay. Mr. Berthold emphasized that just now. The industry can do its work itself, without anyone needing to interfere in its business.My question is about all the technologies you were talking about, like the transponder. I’d like to have your opinion about it. You can both answer first, then you can continue later. The government has just passed legislation about rearview cameras, for the same safety reasons as it did for airbags. They will now be mandatory. The industry will adapt and will include the technology for everyone. I think that we should not even question it. All the most recent safety technologies should be included. Airbags should even be installed on all sides. Why should it just be the richest among us who can afford safety systems of that kind? They should be mandatory and the costs should be spread out through the entire system.As a basic step, could we require companies to install those safety systems in all new drones on the market, as well as putting regulations in place that would require those who already have them to go and get those safety systems? It would automatically result in lower costs, in greater access to the new safety systems, and in a greater assurance of safety.With other regulations, we could require users to take training in the rules of proper use, in the same spirit as driver training courses, for example. I would first like to hear both of your opinions.Education and trainingRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftTranspondersJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekStéphaneBouvier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]Unfortunately, I have to interrupt you. Your colleague explained all that earlier.What I would like to know is whether, in your opinion, we could require companies to install those redundancy systems, those security systems, in these vehicles. We are not experts here, but we can imagine that it might be possible. Why not have regulations to require them to be already included in the vehicles in the same way that the government already has regulations for airbags and seatbelts, and that it intends to have for rearview cameras?The government's role is to make legislation and it is the private sector's role to conform and to come up with technologies to make that happen if it wants products to appear on the market. Otherwise, they would be illegal, in which case, steps would be taken, of course. Air safetyRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftStéphaneBouvierStéphaneBouvier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]Yes, but the department issues flight certificates to individuals or companies who want to get one.Could we require the companies that manufacture these vehicles to instal the best safety system, either a transponder or any other redundancy system to back up other systems that might fail? We are not the experts, but there are those who could tell us which system would be best. Is thinking that such a system could be required so illogical?Air safetyPermits and licencesRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftStéphaneBouvierAnne-SophieRiopel-Bouvier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Glenn, Mr. Aruja, what do you think of the idea of imposing those requirements on companies?Air safetyRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftAnne-SophieRiopel-BouvierIanGlenn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]Let me ask you a very quick question that you can answer yes or no.To your knowledge, does any country require the manufacturers of these vehicles to meet a minimum safety standard, such as the one we are discussing at the moment? Has any country reached the point of imposing manufacturing standards, as has been done in the automotive sector for rearview cameras, for example?Just answer yes or no, because my time is running out.Air safetyRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftMarkArujaMarkAruja//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]So if we did it, we would be leaders. I think the government really likes being a leader.Air safetyRegulationRemotely piloted aircraftMarkArujaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1040)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to the witnesses for their participation today.At first glance, I wondered whether this matter was really an emergency, but the more I listen to you, the more I realize its importance.We have talked a lot about air traffic safety. We are also talking about the protection of privacy. I was the mayor of a municipality with 45,000 people. Our discussions have reminded me of a situation in which I had to deal with the city's lawyers. A resident who had security cameras also used them to photograph his neighbour when she was sitting around her swimming pool in a bathing suit. We had to handle that situation.I clearly remember the clerk of the municipality telling us about the problems that would come with drones and cameras, and the challenge of determining who would assume the responsibility. The people turn to municipalities, but these issues fall under federal jurisdiction.Many issues will have to be addressed. For instance, we have not really talked about security issues involving terrorists and their potential use of drones. I have not seen the list with all the witnesses who will be appearing, but I suppose we'll be talking to other witnesses.In navigation, training is provided for water craft used in leisure activities. Every person who wants to drive a motor boat must first fill out a questionnaire on the Internet. Although I have never done so, I imagine that the idea is to educate those people through the various questions and provide them with information so that they can better understand the issues. Naturally, someone might impersonate another person and pass the test, but given the way it's done, we can assume that the majority of people are following this process.In your opinion, should all drone users be required to undergo that type of training?RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDanAdamus//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1040)[Translation]A fairly quick measure could be implemented as a first step. We could then discuss all the other aspects, including the commercial aspect.My understanding is that training and requirements are already in place for commercial drone users.Mr. Adamus, earlier, you talked about some 700 cases in which drones were detected in flight paths with aircraft passing. However, have any accidents or serious cases been recorded?My question is for all three witnesses.RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftDavidFraserDanAdamus//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1040)[Translation]My question is for the analysts. Would it be possible to check whether there is a list of collisions at Transport Canada? It could be given to all the members of the committee so that they can see if anything like that has really happened.Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to the witnesses as well.RegulationRemotely piloted aircraftDavidFraserJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1000)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to thank everyone who is here this morning to answer our questions.My questions are for Ms. Boileau, the assistant deputy minister, who, if I'm not mistaken, handles infrastructure-related finance issues.On the third page of the speaking notes you sent to us, you say, “The funds that we are requesting be transferred are from the municipal rural infrastructure fund...”Could you expand on that? Are these funds that have not been used in the municipalities and that you are asking be recovered for other projects?Department of TransportSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]So these were funds that the municipalities had access to. We know that the municipalities have many requests. Are you taking these funds to respond to other Infrastructure Canada requests or are they now going to be used for municipal projects?Department of TransportSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureDarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]Thank you.We have talked a lot about the new infrastructure bank of the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities. Both say great things about it.According to the information we've received, the federal contribution of $15 billion to funding this $35 billion bank would come from a fund originally budgeted for municipalities. Is that how we should understand it?Department of TransportFinancingSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureDarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]As I understand it, the $15 billion for infrastructure announced in the budget is being transferred to the infrastructure bank, which is to be used for infrastructure projects. In fact, these funds already existed and are not new funds that were added to the fiscal update. They are from Infrastructure Canada's 2016 budget.Department of TransportFinancingSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureDarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]Thank you.The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities threw out a lot of numbers in recent question periods in the House. They told us that over 900 infrastructure projects had been approved. However, when we look at the figures, we see that only eight of the projects that have been approved are currently under way.That information is from about three weeks ago. It's possible that the number of projects is now 10 or 12. Is that number wrong? Otherwise, it would seem that only a dozen projects have been under construction in Canada since the start of the year.Department of TransportSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureDarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]Indeed. My questions will be just for you.DarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]Now you're talking about 700 projects, but the parliamentary secretary said there were over 900.Department of TransportSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureDarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]My question has to do with projects under way, meaning ones where there are backhoe loaders and people on site. You said that 70% of these 900 projects—Department of TransportSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureDarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]The purpose of my question is to determine how may of these 900 projects are currently in progress. I'm talking about projects where orange traffic cones have been set up and people are working on site. Can you give me the number?Department of TransportSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017Transportation infrastructureDarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]Fine.Department of TransportSupplementary estimates (B) 2016-2017DarleneBoileauDarleneBoileau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]Perfect.Thank you.DarleneBoileauJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0955)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. My thanks to the witnesses for joining us this morning. As you know, and as the testimony shows, the federal approval process for the projects proposed and scheduled in the legislative measures for protecting navigation no longer automatically lead to a federal environmental assessment. That has been the case since the act went into effect in 2012, if I am not mistaken.Clearly, the mandate the minister received is to restore lost protections and incorporate modern safeguards. In your view, what would modern protection safeguards be? I would like to hear what all three of you have to say.Application processCo-managementEnvironmental assessmentInland watersLegislative reviewMinor watersNavigation Protection ActPublic consultationSenior citizensSustainable developmentJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAndreaHoyt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0905)[Translation]I sincerely thank the witnesses for their presentations and the time they have taken this morning to speak to us about this bill.I am going to begin with you, Ms. Powell. In your presentation, you indicated that the bill should make consideration of community benefits mandatory.The bill grants that power to the minister, but it does not make it an obligation. What do you think of the statement that is in the bill?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekRosemariePowell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0905)[Translation]Excuse me, I made a mistake. I mentioned your name, but the question was addressed to Ms. Murphy.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsRosemariePowellRosemariePowell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0905)[Translation]She was the one who made that statement.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsRosemariePowellColetteMurphy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0910)[Translation]That's fine, thank you.Mr. McBain, you said that your organization already takes local communities into account. In fact, all of the witnesses told us that in their presentations. You all gave many examples showing that that was already being done.I want to understand properly. You said that in your projects you incorporate parks, commemoration and recreation, and that you work with first nations communities. You are all able to do that already since you provide work.The bill proposes rather that promoters and entrepreneurs who conduct projects take communities into account. What will this bill allow you to do that you are not already doing? Listening to you, it seems you all take local communities into account already in your projects.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsColetteMurphyJohnMcBain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0910)[Translation]We heard witnesses on Tuesday, and one of them said something interesting. He said that in any case, everything that is being asked for in this private member's bill could already be done by the government and the Department of Public Services and Procurement. In his opinion, all the the government has to do is ask that this be included in the project. So I am sincerely wondering about this.The member replied that in practice it would not cost the government more. In his opinion all that is required is an additional line in the specifications where the promoters would have to indicate whether their project would provide economic and social benefits for the communities.Do you agree with me that in order to verify that claim, we would need people to validate the information, so as to ensure that this really happens?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJohnMcBainJohnMcBain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0910)[Translation]So we would have to do some checking to ensure that there is a fair and equitable process for all of the bidders, and that what is written down really gets done. I imagine that staff will have to do these verifications, which will necessarily mean additional costs for the state. According to the member, this line that would be added would not cost one cent more and these projects would provide more community, social and economic benefits.Do you agree that the implementation of this bill would not cost a penny more?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)CostsInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJohnMcBainJohnMcBain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0910)[Translation]Thank you very much.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0955)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.First I want to welcome our two witnesses and thank them for being here with us.Of course, we cannot be against motherhood. Like you, I think it is essential that we support local communities. However, in this private member's bill, we see no obligation or constraint. We are told that the implementation of such a bill will not cost the government a penny.My question is for each of you.Could you give me a concrete example of a projet conducted by Public Services and Procurement Canada that had no socioeconomic benefits in communities?I am talking about strictly federal projects, projects that were not funded by municipal or provincial governments. This is what the member who introduced the bill specified. It is important to clarify that, since some people may not know it.My question will be addressed to Mr. Varone first.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekToniVarone//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]You answered my question, but I would like to know what is preventing the government, more specifically Public Services and Procurement Canada, from requiring these economic benefits. Why can it not impose those conditions?In my opinion those conditions exist, since many experts and organization representatives told us that they already take this into account.The representative of one organization—I don't remember which one—told us earlier that benefits to communities were taken into account, and that community parks, commemorative parks or parks for recreational activities had been created, and that work was done with first nations communities. They already do all of that. If the minister wanted to, through her department, all she would have to do is add one line, state some requirements and do some verifications.Is there something stopping the minister from doing that at this time, in your opinion?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsToniVaroneToniVarone//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]However, I can assure you that with the Liberal government, we are not in a period of fiscal restraint. Far from it, in fact. Mr. Rodriguez can confirm that.Mr. Cartwright, could you answer my question?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsToniVaroneJohnCartwright//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]In your opinion, would including that incur costs for the government?The member who came to speak to us about it said that it would cost nothing to ensure that communities be taken into account in all projects.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)CostsInfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJohnCartwrightJohnCartwright//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]Fine.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJohnCartwrightJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]To be fair and equitable toward all of the entrepreneurs who submit a bid, how can we verify that what is indicated in that line, the commitment to create socioeconomic benefits for the community and engage it, is really achieved?Do we have to give all entrepreneurs carte blanche?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureInvitation to tenderMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJohnCartwright//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]We will need people to do that work, which implies costs.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)CostsInfrastructureInvitation to tenderMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJohnCartwrightJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0855)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Good morning, Mr. Hussen.Thank you for your presentation. I apologize for being late. I missed the first few minutes.I have a few questions about Bill C-227, which I would first like to begin by noting is full of good intentions.I'd like to know why you think a bill like this is likely to have local benefits in the various municipalities and communities across Canada.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAhmedHussenYork South—Weston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0855)[Translation]Before I became a federal MP, I was the mayor of a municipality with a population of 45,000. While I was reading this bill, I was sincerely trying to see what a bill like this would have changed in the day-to-day of my municipality. It is important to keep in mind that we were already entitled to provincial programs and federal grants.Generally speaking, when applying to various subsidy programs, all these issues have already been discussed. We must immediately demonstrate that there will be a benefit for the community, otherwise the money will simply not come from the various levels of government. We must meet the standards and comply with the criteria set by the various governments.I sincerely wonder what more this will bring. Can you give me an example of what you currently cannot do and what this program will enable you to do? I really feel that this is something that is already in the system.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsAhmedHussenYork South—WestonAhmedHussenYork South—Weston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0900)[Translation]It may sound redundant, but when I was mayor, I made grant applications in collaboration with the municipal government. Of course, as soon as something is realized, there is an economic benefit for the community, be it for community work, an arena, or a cultural centre. I think it is clear that, from the moment a program is put in place by the federal government, the goal is to have economic, social, community, cultural, sport and other benefits.I'm repeating myself. Could you give me a concrete example that demonstrates that we are not able to show economic benefits and where the minister—whether it's a Conservative or Liberal government, that isn't the issue—is not sure who is ensuring that we should add a structure that, to make it happen, would require more time and more work for developers, the municipalities and the communities.Could you give me one or two examples of this, that justify why you thought about this bill?I would like to repeat that I think the intent of this bill is noble. We cannot oppose virtue. However, I'd like to know what this will change and if anyone was bullied in the past about this willingness to change and implement this legislation.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsAhmedHussenYork South—WestonAhmedHussenYork South—Weston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0900)[Translation]I understand that.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsAhmedHussenYork South—WestonAhmedHussenYork South—Weston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0900)[Translation]I think it is my priority as member to ask the question if I don't have the answer.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsAhmedHussenYork South—WestonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Good morning. I'd like to thank the three witnesses for being here today.MP Hussen, who introduced Bill C-227, told us earlier that he did not think it would generate any cost in the system, simply because it would only require adding a line in the contracts. The developer would only have to indicate whether or not there would be economic and social benefits for the community.Yet I think it's much more complicated than that. In fact, when I was mayor, I saw many contracts and analyzed many tenders. If the answer indicated on that line was “yes”, someone would still need to do a fairly rigorous analysis to ensure that the situation was fair and just for all developers who submitted a contract.Mr. Atkinson, do you think my analysis is wrong?Do you really think that if we ensured things were fair and just for everyone who submitted tenders, this analysis would not require public funds?C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)Government assistanceInfrastructureInvitation to tenderMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMichaelAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1005)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Atkinson.Mr. Smillie, I am very interested in your comment about young apprentices. You said that only 19% of people hired on construction sites are apprentices. You seem to be basing this on a causal linkage when you say that you believe that Bill C-227 might improve the situation.However, you noted that the government can dictate terms already in its calls for tender. So, without this bill, it could impose a certain percentage of apprentices or indicate its willingness for there to be one. The goal would be to prepare the next generation or the workforce and encourage young people. It might even want to target other community members.Would you agree that the government can already impose these criteria if it wishes?Mr. Atkinson can confirm that it would be just and fair to all the developers. Indeed, they would follow the same rules and would make their submissions on the same terms.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureInvitation to tenderMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsMichaelAtkinsonChristopherSmillie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1010)[Translation]Mr. Smillie, my question is whether the government can already do this, without Bill C-227. As far as I know, the answer is yes.C-227, An Act to amend the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act (community benefit)InfrastructureInvitation to tenderMaintenance, repair and renovation servicesPrivate Members' BillsChristopherSmillieChristopherSmillie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1010)[Translation]My question, Mr. Smillie—ChristopherSmillieJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0935)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you to our two witnesses for being with us today.I have no doubt that, like us, you are very busy. It will probably seem as though I am asking the same questions you have already been asked, but I am really trying to get confirmation of certain facts.Transport Canada's navigation program no longer accepts complaints about works that impede navigation on unlisted waterways. Individuals who believe that a work on an unlisted waterway has an impact on the public right to navigation need to seek a court order to resolve the issue.Witnesses who are having problems have talked a lot about the environment and fishing. I believe a department or another authority is responsible for that part of the problem. For the moment, I would prefer that we stick to navigation.Within your respective organizations, have any legal complaints been filed since 2002, the year the legislation was amended?Mr. Farrant, please go ahead.ComplaintsInland watersLegal proceedingsLegislative reviewMinor watersNavigation Protection ActSafetyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGregFarrant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]Thank you.I haven't been on the committee long, but I can say that all the organizations have been unable to state how many complaints had been filed in the past four years, be it two, three or more. I would say to my fellow member who is a lawyer that that isn't very good news for lawyers, since this issue isn't generating much business for them right now. If you want to know what I think, the Liberals will have to find another way to create jobs for themselves.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActJayMorrisonJayMorrison//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]I'm going to go even further.Earlier you mentioned aboriginal communities. On Tuesday, a witness told us that they were relatively satisfied with the consultations held prior to 2012, and that the same was true for aboriginal communities. I can't recall the witness's name, but the analysts no doubt have it in their files. Regardless, the legislation isn't perfect. When a government introduces a bill and adopts measures—and the same applies to the Liberal government—it's a step forward. Then, efforts are made over the years to improve it.Even though I believe that the government has already decided what it is going to do, what measures would you suggest the government take? The government really doesn't want to tell us what we are allowed to work on, and that's truly unfortunate. If you were to make a recommendation, however, please take this opportunity to tell us what it would be.Aboriginal peoplesDepartment of TransportDrainage ditchesEnvironmental assessmentInland watersLegislative reviewMinor watersNavigation Protection ActPublic consultationJayMorrisonJayMorrison//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]If you were to trade places with the minister and you were going to amend the Navigation Protection Act because you weren't pleased with it, what steps would you take tomorrow? What would you recommend the government do?Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActJayMorrisonJayMorrison//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]I can tell you that the witnesses who appeared previously didn't say that.Mr. Farrant, what would you recommend?Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActJayMorrisonGregFarrant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0945)[Translation]Mr. Farrant, do—GregFarrantJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0955)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'd like to finish my list of questions.I have a question for you, Mr. Farrant. I don't think it's something I need to ask the other two witnesses because they both expressed the desire to extend protection to all waterways during their remarks.I'm curious as to whether your organization suggested to the minister that a waterway be added to the list, after the amended legislation was enacted in 2012?Under the legislation, the minister has the authority to add waterways to the list. There is nothing preventing the minister from extending protection to other waterways. Has your organization made such a request since 2012?Council of CanadiansExemption provisionsInland watersLegislative reviewMinor watersNavigation Protection ActJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGregFarrant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]Very good.Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActGregFarrantJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]Yes, absolutely.Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGregFarrant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1000)[Translation]Mr. Farrant, thank you kindly for your intelligent comments throughout this meeting. I think this is an issue that can be dealt with in a measured way. Despite what some have claimed, I don't think the legislation enacted in 2012 was all that detrimental. That is the conclusion I have come to after listening to all the witnesses who have appeared prior and spoken about the advantages the legislation affords them in their respective spheres of activity.I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Berthold.Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1920)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My first question is for you, Professor Lupia.Today, a journalist said that the Liberal government had 350 election platform promises. That number in addition to hundreds of electoral promises made by the two other parties that were also in favour of changing the voting system.Mr. Dias said that 70% of people voted for a change because the previous government had been in power for almost 10 years. He was not entirely wrong, although I wouldn't say 70% myself.Based on your experience, would you say that the government has a clear mandate to change the voting system without necessarily having to consult the people?Electoral reformPolitical programsVoting and votersFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisArthurLupia//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]I think you answered my question indirectly. Thank you.Mr. Dias, Ms. Morris, Mr. Poziomka, I have not participated in all the meetings, but I think I participated in more than two-thirds of the meetings that witnesses attended. But all the groups that were clearly in favour of changing the voting system and, in almost all cases, of establishing a proportional voting system, were clearly opposed to a referendum. They argued that their members were clearly in favour of a change and that, as a result, a referendum was not necessary. They cited polls to justify their position.Over the past few months, almost all the polls in which Canadians were asked whether or not they were in favour of a referendum on this issue have shown that many of them were in favour. It was more than 50% in all cases.Why would all the surveys of the organizations you have cited provide a valid justification, but not those conducted with the general public?Electoral reformReferendaSurveysArthurLupiaWandaMorris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]Surveys based on scientific statistics show us that the majority of Canadians are in favour of a referendum.Under those circumstances, would you be in favour of the idea of polling the public once the government submits a voting system proposal to determine whether or not they want to see that voting system adopted?As elected officials, why should we not consider those surveys, which are scientific, not solely based on the opinion of a group of people?Electoral reformReferendaSurveysWandaMorrisWandaMorris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]So, as an organization, would you be in favour of that?Electoral reformReferendaSenior citizensSurveysWandaMorrisWandaMorris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Thank you very much.Mr. Dias, I'm sure you will be pleased to answer that question.Electoral reformReferendaWandaMorrisJeromeDias//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Mr. Dias, let me ask you my question again in the hope of receiving an answer.Surveys have been conducted. In all the surveys conducted in the past year asking citizens whether they are in favour of a referendum, the answer is clearly “yes” for more than 50%. The number is not close to 50% in the polls for your members and organization, but it is for the entire Canadian population.Do you recognize that those surveys are valid, yes or no? That's the question I'm asking you.Electoral reformReferendaSurveysFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJeromeDias//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Thank you.JeromeDiasFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (0935)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am pleased to join your committee.I support what my colleague, Mr. Berthold, said about the last topic that was discussed. I think Quebec’s ministry of sustainable development, environment and the fight against climate change and the federal Department of Environment and Climate Change could help a great deal in that area.I would like to turn to the mandate letter to go back to the crux of the matter. Minister Garneau’s mandate letter states:Work with the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard to review the previous government’s changes to the Fisheries Act and the Navigable Waters Protection Act, restore lost protections...Personally, I think that, if the idea is to restore that, there’s nothing to discuss as the Liberals simply want to reverse all measures put in place and return to the past. But as I listen to you, I don’t feel that you want to backtrack and undo what has been done in the previous amendments.The quotation continues as follows: “...and incorporate modern safeguards.” If that's the case, perhaps the minister can tell us what he wants to do. The committee could then do its study, consult experts to confirm it, and say whether it’s good or not.Gentlemen, I would like to hear what you have to say about that. First, those from Alberta and Saskatchewan, followed by the representative from the Fédération québécoise des municipalités.Inland watersInterdepartmental relationsLaw enforcementLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]I would like to hear from the other witness. I will come back to it later if we have enough time.AlKemmereJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (0940)[Translation]Thank you.I will have to give the floor to my colleague, Mr. Berthold. I apologize for not allowing you to speak, Mr. Pearce. I just want to say that we are having discussions in many committees right now, but we don’t know what the projects are. I can tell you that it's very frustrating for us as well.I turn the floor over to Mr. Berthold.Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActRaymondOrbLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1015)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to both witnesses for being here today.In a previous life, before I was elected to Parliament a year ago, I was the mayor of a municipality of 45,000 residents.Mr. Atkinson, I confirm that there are many bylaws, many environmental regulations—particularly at the provincial level—that stand in the way of people who want to create wealth and to develop the various municipalities across Canada.In any case, I can confirm that this is the reality in rural areas. It often causes more problems than anything else. As mayor, I had to play the role of mediator, to deal with provincial authorities to try to untangle projects that were subject to excessive regulations for all sorts of reasons. I could prepare a whole list, but I don't think this is the objective today. For anyone wondering, I confirm that there are a lot of them.Let me ask you both some simple questions.First of all, on a scale of one to 10, what is your level of satisfaction with the existing legislation and with the amendments that were implemented in 2012?Application processBuilding and construction industryEnvironmental assessmentInland watersLegislative reviewMinor watersNavigation Protection ActPipeline transportationJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMichaelAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1020)[Translation]Great.My understanding is that—just answer yes or no, unless you want to elaborate—the minister's mandate letter is quite clear. He wants us to go back, despite what has been said in terms of not “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.” From the minister's various comments, we feel that the Liberals want to destroy what was done by the previous government. Do you think we should go back, before 2012?Inland watersLegislative reviewNavigation Protection ActChrisBloomerMichaelAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1020)[Translation]Great.MichaelAtkinsonChrisBloomer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1020)[Translation]Thank you.I'll give the 50 seconds I have left to my colleague.ChrisBloomerJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (2100)[Translation]Good evening, everyone.My first question is for Mr. Becker.Mr. Cullen pointed out to me that you were a great witness, because you have even provided us with a list of questions. For my first question, I will use one of those you have provided to us. I hardly changed a couple of words.Your fourth question indicates that the preferential voting system seems to be a valid option for many Canadians. I would add that it also appears valid for our Prime Minister, who seems to like it a lot.Then you ask why this modelling produces such poor results for the preferential voting system. Could you tell me what you think?Electoral reformPreferential voting systemFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisByron WeberBecker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (2100)[Translation]Thank you very much.My second question is still for you, Mr. Becker.At meetings with our fellow constituents in our ridings, the issue of local representation comes up a great deal. When we talk about proportional systems, most presentations have been indicating a decrease in the number of constituency MPs to make way for list members.My colleague Mr. Reid started to talk about the following. If we decided to keep the 338 constituencies, how many members do you think should be added for better proportional representation, even if we don’t necessarily have the best possible outcome? Is there something in-between that would prevent adding 200 or 300 MPs, but that would keep the 338 MPs in place? I think this would help the public be more accepting of a change in the voting system.Electoral boundariesElectoral reformRepresentation by populationByron WeberBeckerByron WeberBecker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (2105)[Translation]I asked you that question because it’s something we have not discussed much. Every 10 years, the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada adds a number of MPs, given the population growth. It seems to me that there might be another solution: adding fewer members now, but planning from now on for all members added every time the electoral map is reconfigured to be elected based on a proportional voting system.Do you think taking small steps to some day reach the number of MPs required for good proportional representation could be an appealing solution?Electoral reformMembers of ParliamentProportional representationRepresentation by populationByron WeberBeckerByron WeberBecker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (2105)[Translation]Mr. Hughes, you mentioned the list members, which gave some food for thought. Since the list members are not connected to a constituency, what will happen to them at the next election? I guess their political party must submit their names on the list, if they still want to remain members.BallotsElectoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformMembers of ParliamentMixed-member proportional representationByron WeberBeckerDarrenHughesHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (2105)[Translation]If they were re-elected as list members, could they represent another region of Canada or would they rather be firmly assigned to one region of the country?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformMembers of ParliamentMixed-member proportional representationDarrenHughesHon.DarrenHughesHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1450)[Translation]Good afternoon. Thank you for being with us.It's a pleasure to be in New Brunswick. The last time I was here was with my wife, 23 years ago, for our honeymoon. We spent a week visiting this magnificent province. My wife got me to try lobster for the first time on that trip. I have three children, and two or three months ago, my eldest stopped being afraid of the creature and started eating it. Of course that means less for us since we now have to share it. In short, it's delightful to be here again. I've promised myself that I'm going to bring my family back for a visit so I can show my children your wonderful corner of the country.Ms. Everitt, I'd like to tell you that your analysis of the situation as it relates to women, or at least your interpretation of it, is the best I've seen so far. You noted that, regardless of the electoral system, it is, above all, the tools we put in place that will help increase the number of women in politics. I fully agree with you. We've heard from a number of experts that the electoral system has no real impact on the number of elected representatives who are women and that the first priority should be to put tools in place to bring that number up. For example, in a list-based system, we could require parties to nominate more female candidates. But we could also do that within the current system. If I have a bit more time, we can perhaps come back to that. You could comment further, but since I wholeheartedly agree with everything you're saying, asking you more questions just to have you repeat what you've already said would be pointless.I was, however, taken aback several times when Ms. Ouellette was speaking. Allow me to explain. People often assume that my party, the Conservative Party, is calling for a referendum because it wants to keep the status quo. To my mind, that's completely untrue. I think people have the wrong impression. I will agree that, within the party, as within other parties, there are people who are in favour of keeping the status quo. In fact, the main reason is that they are worried about local representation. I'm in the camp that tends to favour the current system until I am presented with evidence that another system could preserve, and obviously not weaken, local representation. I am adamant about that. Unfortunately, political parties all have an interest in one model over another. And, in that sense, I think the public should have a say on such a fundamental issue. We've already seen the Prime Minister come out in favour of a preferential system. Yet, 95% of experts have told us that such a system wouldn't necessarily be appropriate.The smaller parties are in favour of a proportional system, and the more traditional parties prefer sticking with the status quo. Given how fundamentally important the choice of an electoral system is, I believe it's up to Canadians to decide.I have a background in education. I'm a former teacher and school principal, both at the elementary and high-school levels. When I hear someone use the term “anti-democratic”, or say that a referendum should focus on less complex issues, that it puts democracy at significant risk, or that it is practically impossible to educate the public on these issues, a proverb comes to mind. It's one we would often use when talking to teachers and other members of the school system who wanted to see changes made swiftly: if you want to go fast, go alone; if you want to go far, go together.On Monday, Professor Rémy Trudel told the committee that a referendum was perhaps the most powerful educational tool available, because, even if just 50% of Canadians voted across the country, that would still be 15 million people, versus the 3% of the public who actually care about the issue.I was almost upset, and I would have liked the opportunity to address Ms. Ouellette directly. It may not necessarily reflect what everyone thinks or wants, but can it really be called anti-democratic? Would it really be so detrimental to ask Canadians what they thought of the electoral system?Some are convinced that the chances of losing the referendum are greater than the chances of winning it. But many people come to the hearings and say they want this change. Yesterday, I did a survey on my Facebook page, and I have more than 15,000 friends. This could be used against our party, but I'll tell you that 60% of the people who commented told me they wanted to see our electoral system changed, and 80% of them said they wanted a proportional system chosen. What's more, 80% of all those who commented said they wanted to have a referendum. (1455)Those people, who responded to a survey on a Conservative MP's Facebook page, are very smart, in my opinion. They said they wanted a change because they didn't think our system was perfect. A proportional system seemed to them to be a better option, but they'd like to know more. The experts have told us that the public seems to view the proportional system as the best option, at first glance, even though it may not be ideal in all respects. Regardless, 80% of people said they wanted a referendum.I'd like to hear your view on that. I realize I covered a lot.Electoral reformReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJoannaEveritt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1455)[Translation]Ms. Everitt—JoannaEverittFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1455)[Translation]Yes, but I'd just like to answer Ms. Everitt.Ms. Everitt, you have no reason to be uncomfortable. I think you partly answered the question. We can discuss it further. That said, thank you for your comments.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJoannaEveritt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1620)[Translation]Good afternoon.I have a few questions, and I'd like you to answer using a scale of one to 10, where one means you completely disagree and 10 means you completely agree. I'm going to try to do it quickly. I don't necessarily want any comments; I think we've pretty much covered the topic already.On a scale of one to 10, what would you rate your support for a national civic education program for schools, including proper funding?CurriculumElectoral reformGovernment and politicsFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJ.P.Lewis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1620)[Translation]What about you, Mr. Elbert?Electoral reformJ.P.LewisLeonidElbert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]I am really looking for just a number between one and 10, where one means you completely disagree, 10 means you completely agree, and five means you're split. I would ask that you not say any more than that, as I have a number of questions.CurriculumElectoral reformGovernment and politicsLeonidElbertLeonidElbert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]Great.What about mandatory voting?Compulsory votingElectoral reformLeonidElbertJ.P.Lewis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]Should we put stringent measures in place to ensure political parties allow women and minorities to take their rightful place within their ranks, without necessarily changing the electoral system?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformEqual opportunitiesLeonidElbertJ.P.Lewis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]Zero. That says it all.What do you think of the idea of lowering the voting age to 16?Electoral reformVoting ageLeonidElbertJ.P.Lewis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]Thank you.If the committee couldn't reach a consensus on a model to replace the current system, on a scale of one to 10, would you agree with holding a referendum so that Canadians could decide? Remember, I am referring specifically to a situation in which the committee was unable to arrive at a consensus.Electoral reformReferendaLeonidElbertJ.P.Lewis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]Thank you.For my next question, you'll be able to round out your response, which I'm sure you'll appreciate.Whether or not people want a new electoral system, the real issue for them is the contrast between local representation and proportional representation, which allocates seats in proportion to the share of the national vote. All of the proportional systems that have been proposed reduce the number of seats to free up a certain number to achieve proportionality. That's what divides those who want to keep the status quo and those who want a change. It's not that those who prefer the status quo don't see the importance of proportional seat allocation; it's just that they don't support a weaker local presence in the ridings. Take me, as an example. I often say that my riding already has 40 municipalities, and I wouldn't want it to be any larger given how much I care about local representation.What if we were to keep the 338 existing seats across the country but add some to achieve proportionality? I'm not talking about adding 200 or 300 seats as per the ideal model that has been proposed. Rather, I'm talking about adding some 40 or 50 seats to have better allocation, to help the smaller parties, to rebalance the shares, and to ensure representation is more proportional. Might that be a worthwhile compromise?Electoral reformProportional representationRepresentation by populationLeonidElbertJ.P.Lewis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]No. You can if you like, but you don't have to.Electoral reformJ.P.LewisJ.P.Lewis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]Thank you.I'm asking an important question because it has never been put to the witnesses.We always consider the models proposed to us. Everyone wants to lower the number of seats because they don't think the public would accept having more added. But as I see it, it's the only model that would preserve local representation while achieving better proportional representation.Mr. Elbert, you can go first. Then, Mr. Lewis, you can go ahead if you have something to add. Electoral reformProportional representationRepresentation by populationJ.P.LewisLeonidElbert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1625)[Translation]I'm going to respond, Mr. Elbert, if you don't mind.When we talk about local representation, it really has nothing at all to do with private members' bills. I would say that, generally speaking, no member of the public even knows that exists. Local representation is much more visible in the work we do in our ridings, our presence at events alongside our constituents; it's that closeness that allows us to hear what people are saying and represent them faithfully in the decision-making process.That said, thank you kindly for your remarks.I believe Mr. Lewis had something to add. Would you allow him to do so, Mr. Chair?Electoral reformMembers of ParliamentProportional representationRepresentation by populationVoting and votersLeonidElbertFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]No, not me. I thought Mr. Lewis did.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]Good evening.My thanks to the four witnesses who have come to meet with us. I also join my colleagues in thanking the people in the audience who have come out. This is our last day. At least it is for me. In the two weeks I have spent with the members of the committee, I have been able to visit a number of beautiful cities in Canada and I am very happy about that.My questions go mainly to you, Ms. Duguay. This is not because the other witnesses are not interesting, but personally, my impression is that we have heard almost everything in these last three weeks, counting the sessions in Ottawa. I say that with all respect, I think we have really considered the matter from all angles.Having said that, I am very interested in the opinion of young people. I feel that it is important. We talk a lot about women, but we have not talked a lot about young people. In addition, the various organizations that have come to meet with us have told us that we perhaps have not listened to them enough or that we have not moved enough in their direction. Most of the sessions took place in the afternoon while young people were at school. In order to get to know their opinions a little more, we should perhaps have held some meetings in universities, colleges, or CEGEPs in Quebec, or even in high schools. This is a constructive comment, and we should perhaps consider it for future consultations.I would like to hear what you have to say about mandatory voting. Is it something that the people in your organization have discussed with any intensity?Compulsory votingElectoral reformYoung peopleFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisSueDuguay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]Let me take the opportunity to ask for your personal opinion, even if it’s not the consensus in your organization. One of the nice surprises of being on this tour was hearing people speak favourably about mandatory voting. At the outset, I was not really in favour of it, but two of the arguments we have heard were very compelling.The first argument is that mandatory voting would encourage politicians to pay more attention to the opinion of segments of society that do not vote right now, the poor and the young. It has been shown that poorer people are less likely to vote. If the vote is mandatory, with or without penalties, politicians would of necessity consider the opinion of those people, especially the young, because they would be voting.The second argument was made yesterday or the day before, if I’m not mistaken. Someone told us that the Chief Electoral Officer had to invest a huge amount of energy into very expensive ad campaigns just to encourage people to vote. Instead, those resources could be used to deal with the electoral platforms of political parties or to introduce civic education and to raise awareness about social issues.If the vote were mandatory, the Chief Electoral Officer and the political parties would not actually have to work so hard to encourage people to vote. Political parties could be working more on explaining their platforms to, and meeting with, the public, rather than making phone calls, and so on.Do you think it would be useful to explore the issue?Compulsory votingElectoral reformPublic financeVoter turnoutYoung peopleSueDuguaySueDuguay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Since you gave a very quick answer, I will be able to move to the next question.To make voting accessible, especially for young people, could electronic voting be an interesting solution?Many people are afraid of it. However, just yesterday, I wrote a cheque, then photographed it with my cellphone, and sent it off. I have carried out transactions. I bought tickets to go see my young niece perform in La Voix Junior at the Bell Centre in Montreal. I’m thinking that technology should really enable us to make voting more accessible to young people.Electoral reformElectronic votingVoter turnoutYoung peopleSueDuguaySueDuguay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Let me ask you a trick question.You want to set up a mandatory civics course for all young people. You said so earlier. As a former elementary and secondary school teacher and principal, I know that everyone would like to have more gym, more music or more sex ed. However, when the time comes to set up the curriculum, choices need to be made.As a student, which subjects would you like to see removed from the curriculum to make room for a civic education course?CurriculumElectoral reformGovernment and politicsSueDuguaySueDuguay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Could that be integrated horizontally in a number of subjects?For instance, during election years, could the French course have theoretical material, particularly in comprehension tests?CurriculumElectoral reformGovernment and politicsSueDuguaySueDuguay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Ms. Duguay, right from the outset, you are my favourite young person. I say this with all due respect, without taking anything from all the other witnesses. It is refreshing to hear you.Thank you.Electoral reformSueDuguaySueDuguay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1445)[Translation]My question is for Mr. Brown.Do you think the process implemented in Prince Edward Island was good and legitimate?Electoral reformPublic consultationReferendaSpecial Legislative Committee on Democratic RenewalFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJordanBrown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1445)[English]Yes.Electoral reformPublic consultationReferendaSpecial Legislative Committee on Democratic RenewalJordanBrownJordanBrown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]I have a second question.You said your mandate was to engage people and give them proper information so they make a good decision, without necessarily being guided. I find that fantastic. Well done.Do you think your work resonated with the population, particularly young people?Please answer quickly, because I'd like to turn the floor over to Scott Reid.Electoral reformReferendaSpecial Legislative Committee on Democratic RenewalVoter turnoutYoung peopleJordanBrownJordanBrown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation] Thank you.I'll let Mr. Reid ask the question he didn't have time for earlier.JordanBrownScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Kingston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1915)[Translation]Hello.I'd like to say that the more the committee work progresses, the more I'm becoming a firm believer in mandatory voting. I'm developing a greater and greater appreciation for the arguments on the subject. I think we'd solve a good portion of our problems with civic engagement and social inequality. The politicians don't take into account a certain social class, since fewer people in that class vote. I don't want to go back to the subject, but I did want to mention it. Several people have spoken about it.My first question is for Ms. Wilson, and it concerns how we could get more women to vote.Most people who speak to us about the proportional system think it would result in more women being elected to Parliament. However, experts tell us that it wouldn't have any impact and that incentive measures should be implemented instead.People have suggested using open or closed lists. We could implement measures that would require the political parties to include women on the lists. This could ensure a certain amount of female representation in Parliament, in case other women candidates in the constituencies aren't elected.If we have the power to include women candidates on the lists, why couldn't we simply implement measures that would require the parties to have 50% women candidates, without even changing the electoral system? I have trouble seeing a link between the electoral system and the percentage of women elected. If these measures could be implemented in the proportional system, why couldn't they be implemented in the current system?I want your opinion on the subject.Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformEqual opportunitiesPolitical partiesVoter turnoutWomenFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisDawnWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1920)[Translation]People tell us the advantage of closed or open lists is that the parties could be required to include as many women as men on the lists. If that's possible, what is preventing us from doing so starting today in our current electoral system?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformEqual opportunitiesPolitical partiesWomenDawnWilsonDawnWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1920)[Translation]Perfect.My next question is for Ms. Keenan.I was very surprised to hear you say that a referendum would set back progress. I don't know whether those were your exact words.Professor Rémy Trudel, in Montreal, Quebec, spoke of a referendum as a powerful way to teach, inform and educate the population. We experienced this in Quebec during the referenda on separation. We often hear that only a small segment of the population is interested in the matter. You said yourself that, for one year, you and certain organizations directed all your energy toward trying to educate people.We might not obtain the result we want from a referendum because there's always a risk. However, I think it's an incredible opportunity to inform and educate people. Together, the political parties and organizations would have the financial means to really increase awareness. It would be better than changing the electoral system simply for the sake of changing the electoral system.Don't you agree?Electoral reformInformation disseminationReferendaDawnWilsonAnnaKeenan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[English]There's no problem with the translation.Electoral reformInformation disseminationReferendaAnnaKeenanAnnaKeenan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]Please stop there.AnnaKeenanFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]Things were starting to become very interesting, Mr. Chair.Voices: Oh, oh!FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1405)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to thank our witnesses today.My first question is for you, Mr. Ring.I'm trying to understand this. Under the system you're proposing, each riding would have two members, and to achieve that, ridings would be combined into twos. Theoretically, then, the member elected in the riding would have twice as big of an area to cover.Electoral boundariesElectoral reformElectoral systemMembers of ParliamentFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisRobertRing//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1405)[Translation] I'm interested in other details.Yesterday, I had a little fun. I posted a survey on Facebook to find out where people in my riding stood. I have to tell you it had a bit of a spillover effect all over Quebec. What is emerging quite clearly is that people are extremely attached to their local MP. That confirms what I, myself, and many others think.I often use my riding as an example. It has 40 municipalities. It would be nearly impossible to double the size of my riding. We spend eight months of the year in Ottawa and the other four months in our ridings. I have trouble seeing how that attachment to the constituents could be maintained under your system.From people's comments, it's clear that they want their member to represent them. They aren't even mentioning political parties. Once the member is elected, he or she represents everyone in the riding. Whether the constituent coming to see me voted for the Green, NDP, or Liberal candidate, I treat them the same way I would the constituent who voted Conservative.Under your two-member system, let's say I finish second. Someone outside the riding who came in second could come into my riding as a top-up member based on your proportional formula. Did I understand that correctly?Electoral boundariesElectoral reformElectoral systemMembers of ParliamentRobertRingRobertRing//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1405)[Translation]Let's continue with your analysis.The person who finished second in my riding wouldn't necessarily be the second member elected. It could be the member from the riding next door who received a higher percentage but wasn't the first choice. That person could become the member for the riding. So the people in my riding could get a new member representing them, one they did not vote for, under the proportional formula. Is that correct?Electoral boundariesElectoral reformElectoral systemMembers of ParliamentRobertRingRobertRing//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]I'm very clear on what you're proposing, but there's something I still find very troubling. Given all the people who have written to us and the comments we've heard on the ground, I have trouble with the idea that people would accept having someone from a neighbouring riding who they did not vote for become their representative. I agree with what Ms. Romanado said about the taxi driver. Yesterday, after posting my survey, I received six private messages from constituents essentially asking me why we wanted to change the voting system. They also wanted to know what the other systems being proposed were, as well as what proportional and mixed systems were all about.Now I'm coming to you, Ms. Bittner. No matter what, I'm going to be short on time.The Prime Minister is looking for consultants to help him follow through on his election promises. I think you hit the nail on the head: we're trying to change the voting system because it's an issue that received attention in the public space. We are discussing it without knowing what the real problems are; we are trying to find a magic bullet that unfortunately doesn't exist.Electoral reformRobertRingFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon, Ms. Reid. Good afternoon, Mr. Dixon.You just saw first-hand what we have been observing: when witnesses share with us ideas that appear to be simple, those ideas are actually much more complicated when you really look at them— Electoral reformFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMarilynReid//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]I think you, like many in the room today, just realized that seemingly straightforward ideas or proposals presented to the committee become a whole lot more complicated when we try to apply those ideas to Parliament.Ms. Reid, my first question is for you. Under your model, are a certain number of members added to the existing 338, or does the number of members stay the same? Electoral reformMembers of ParliamentRepresentation by populationWeighted voting systemFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMarilynReid//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]So you don't have a concrete suggestion at the moment. Under your model, you aren't suggesting that the number of seats be reduced in the case of proportional voting or added; nor are you suggesting some compromise. Is that correct?Electoral reformMembers of ParliamentRepresentation by populationWeighted voting systemMarilynReidMarilynReid//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1540)[Translation]Great.Mr. Dixon, what you said really intrigued me. You haven't spoken much.From what you're hearing, where do the youth you represent stand on the current voting system and electoral reform? If they aren't satisfied with the current model, what do they propose to improve the electoral system? Changing the voting system? Taking other measures?Electoral reformYoung peopleMarilynReidBrendonDixon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1540)[Translation]I have a question about young people and politics.How much understanding would you say young people have of the current political system? On a scale of 1 to 10, what level of understanding do 18- to 25-year-olds have when it comes to our current political system?Electoral reformGovernment and politicsYoung peopleBrendonDixonBrendonDixon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1540)[Translation]Yes. I'd just like to know your opinion; I'm not expecting you to give me scientific data.Electoral reformGovernment and politicsYoung peopleBrendonDixonBrendonDixon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1540)[Translation]You've just confirmed what a number of youth groups have told us. In their view, the biggest priority, even before we get into thinking about electoral reforms, would be to provide civic education. If they had that education, they may not be as favourable to changing the voting system, given that young people have trouble understanding the one we have now.I bring it up because, when we talk to people and ask them what they would really like to see, one of the first things that emerges is the connection to their local representative. Under a proportional voting system, that aspect is, to some extent, lost. That what I'm trying to wrap my head around.Thank you.Electoral reformBrendonDixonFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1855)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon.Mr. McCurdy, thank you for joining us.Would you say that, right now, the public is well-informed when it comes to electoral reform and the issues at stake?Electoral reformInformation disseminationVoting and votersFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisEarleMcCurdy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1855)[English]Not really?Electoral reformEarleMcCurdyEarleMcCurdy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1855)[Translation]I will tell you that is indeed the case. In fact, according to most of the polls and studies that have been done, less than 3% of the population cares about the issue and understands it.If I'm not mistaken, one of my colleagues asked whether you would be in favour of widespread consultation in the form of a referendum, once a proposal had been chosen.That would mean asking people whether they supported the proposal or not. All kinds of scenarios are being considered, but, for the time being, we don't have one to present to Canadians.Do you think we should consult the entire Canadian population in the event that we decide to change the voting system?Electoral reformReferendaEarleMcCurdyEarleMcCurdy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1855)[Translation]Professor Rémy Trudel, who appeared before the committee two days ago, in Montreal, told us that referendums were a powerful tool when it came to educating the population before making a major change.Would you agree?Electoral reformReferendaEarleMcCurdyEarleMcCurdy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1900)[Translation]I'm going to stop you there. The issue is simple. A proposed replacement for the current electoral model would be presented to Canadians, and they would be asked whether they supported the proposed voting system, yes or no.Do you think that would be a good opportunity to educate and inform the public?Electoral reformReferendaEarleMcCurdyEarleMcCurdy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1900)[Translation]A number of provinces and countries seeking to reform their electoral system have held a referendum. My understanding is that turnout is quite high.I have one last question for you, Mr. McCurdy. Let's take the provinces, for example. Let's say Alberta. Right now, the NDP is in power even though the party received a percentage similar to that of the Liberal Party of Canada and the Conservative Party of Canada, in other words, 39%. If we were to add up and combine the votes obtained by the two other farther right parties in Alberta, would you accept the idea of having those two parties form a coalition government in the province, in the wake of the most recent election results?AlbertaCoalition governmentElectoral reformProportional representationEarleMcCurdyEarleMcCurdy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1900)[Translation]But, had Alberta voted using a proportional system, the two other farther right parties, together, would have obtained more than 50% of the votes and seats. In that scenario, those two parties would be governing Alberta, on a coalition basis, instead of the NDP, which currently has a majority. Would you support that?AlbertaCoalition governmentElectoral reformProportional representationEarleMcCurdyEarleMcCurdy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1445)[Translation]Good afternoon. Thank you for being here with us.Mr. Bickerton, I have a question for you. My colleague Blake Richards asked if you were in favour of consulting the entire population through a referendum if the government decides to change the voting system. Going by your answer, I think you feel that would not really be necessary, because the government and Parliament represent the population. I'd like a small clarification. You say the government represents the population very well, but in your presentation you said that we should have a proportional voting system that would represent citizens' opinions better. It seems to me there is a contradiction there.The current government formed a majority government, as we all know, with 39.5% of the vote. This same government has the power to unilaterally change a voting system it deems unrepresentative. Could you tell us a bit more about this? Did I misunderstand your answer?Electoral reformGovernment policyReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJamesBickerton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]Thank you very much.When we were in Quebec, my colleague Mr. DeCourcey put a question to a Laval University political science professor. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he asked him whether he felt there should be a public referendum to establish a certain consensus. Would this compromise be acceptable to you, would this make changing the voting system conceivable for you?Is my question clear?Electoral reformReferendaJamesBickertonJamesBickerton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]In order to obtain a consensus on the voting system proposed to the Canadian population, should we hold a referendum? Could that option be of interest?Electoral reformReferendaJamesBickertonJamesBickerton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]No.Electoral reformJamesBickertonJamesBickerton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]Suppose a referendum were needed to obtain the support of another political party for the government decision. Let's suppose there was no consensus and that no other party accepted the government's proposal. That could happen.Electoral reformReferendaJamesBickertonJamesBickerton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]That's it.Electoral reformReferendaJamesBickertonJamesBickerton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]Thank you.JamesBickertonFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1450)[Translation]My next question is addressed to either of you.People often tell us that we have to listen to them, that their opinion is important and that being able to express their opinion only once every four years is not enough.Before this meeting started, I took a little Facebook poll. Our minister is very fond of social networks. Many of you quote people who put questions to you on Twitter.In less than an hour, 45% to 55% of people indicated that they would like to see the voting system changed. I want to understand clearly. A little more than 50% of people want to see the system changed.At the same time, over 86% of those polled said that they want an opportunity to have their say about the voting system to be considered. You can feel the skepticism out there. People wonder why they should give an opinion if they don't know what model is being considered. That seems to be the general feeling out there among citizens.Electoral reformPublic opinion pollsReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1610)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Majka, you said in your presentation that if the voting system were replaced by some type of proportional system, there would perforce be an increase in voter turnout, which is one of the objectives of the committee, I believe.That said, I would like to know the basis for that statement. I'll explain why.Professor André Blais, from the Université de Montréal, gave a presentation at the House of Commons on the various voting systems. I believe he was accompanied by Ms. Antonia Maioni, from McGill University. For your information, in Quebec it is thought that Mr. Blais is probably the professor who has done the most research on proportional voting systems. We asked him if proportional voting systems led to a higher participation rate, and he answered that nothing pointed to that. He added that in the countries that used such systems, the increase or decrease in voter turnout was around 3%. He stated that in fact, this type of system often increases the number of parties, which instead causes a decline in voter participation. The most striking example he gave was New Zealand. It is one of the few countries to have gone from a system like ours to a proportional system. It's a rather unusual case. And the voter turnout there has declined by 10% in 10 years. I'd like to know the basis for your statement, or perception. The researchers could include that information in their report.Electoral reformProportional representationVoter turnoutFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisChristopherMajka//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]Since we spoke about local representation several times, I am not going to go over that again. I am simply waiting for someone to convince me on proportionality.One expert who spoke, not on the tour, but during the consultations in Ottawa, made a point I found interesting. I think he is the only one to have mentioned this. He cautioned us to be prudent when we talk about better representation of the votes, and to make a distinction between parliamentary representation and representation within government.I'll explain what I mean. In various proportional models, when attempting to balance things with closed or open lists, the number of seats relates to the percentage of the national vote. For instance, the party that garnered the highest percentage of the vote, let's say 45%, and forms an alliance with a smaller party that obtained 7% or 8% of the vote, then has the majority of seats and takes power. However, a political party that obtained 35% of the vote might not be represented in the government, which ultimately makes the decisions.I will summarize. That expert was making a distinction between parliamentary representation, that is the number of seats in Parliament, and representation within government. He advised us that if we are really aiming for representation within government, the vocabulary we use when we explain that is perhaps not adequate.I'd like to hear your comments on that.Coalition governmentElectoral reformPolitical allegianceChristopherMajkaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1635)[Translation]Mr. Chair, on two or three occasions citizens spoke about the New Zealand model, and they said that a referendum was held after the voting system was changed. However, it is important to point out that two referendums were also held before the change was made. People forgot to mention that fact several times.Electoral reformNew ZealandReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1920)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.First of all, I would like to say to Mr. Coffin that I share my colleague's opinion. Political science professors from several universities came to speak to us. The opinions they gave us were diametrically opposed as to the effects of the proportional voting system. We are having trouble sorting it all out, insofar as the representation of women is concerned, and the percentage of the votes.Among the recommended models, a professor from Concordia whose name escapes me opted for the preferential vote, another for the proportional system, and a third for the status quo.It isn't easy for us to sort all this out.I was struck by your comment on the fact that politicians and political parties did not take young people's perspectives into account. Yesterday, one witness told us that if we adopted compulsory voting, we could reduce inequalities in our society. If everyone voted, politicians would have no other choice than to take into account the opinion of low-income people, of the the poorest citizens. For that group, voting is often a less natural gesture.I would like to hear your opinion, all three of you. If we brought in compulsory voting, would the vast majority of citizens vote, would it have a positive effect? Politicians would then have to take into account the opinions of the entire population, and we would not have to change the voting system. I would like to hear your opinions on having an obligatory vote.Compulsory votingElectoral reformYoung peopleFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMarkCoffin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]No, no. I thought you said that if we took young people's opinions into account more, political parties might make other types of proposals. Unless I am mistaken, we are not taking young people's opinions into account enough.If voting were mandatory, a larger number of young people would vote, necessarily, and so political parties would not have a choice and would have to take their opinions into account, correct?Compulsory votingElectoral reformYoung peopleMarkCoffinMarkCoffin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]Mr. Blair and Mr. Pardy, I would like to hear your opinion on compulsory voting.Compulsory votingElectoral reformMarkCoffinAndyBlair//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1925)[Translation]That is what I meant, by the way. People have to turn up, and afterwards they can vote as they see fit. They can choose to return a blank ballot if they wish.Compulsory votingElectoral reformAndyBlairAndyBlair//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1350)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses for being with us here today. I also thank them for sharing the thoughts they have heard on this matter within their respective organizations.My first question is for you, Mr. Dobie.In your statement, you mentioned that experts cannot replace the general public. I felt that was a type of warning on the issue, since we have heard a lot of experts. I can tell you that the opinions of these experts can be diametrically opposed.We spoke with university professors who told us that proportional voting systems do not have a significant effect on voter turnout in the countries where the systems have been put into effect, and we heard experts from other universities who told us that the reverse was true. So it is not always easy for us to sort out everything that is said on this topic.You say that we cannot replace the general public—and you can probably guess the question I'm about to ask you. When these consultations have led to a model, if the government goes ahead and decides to change the voting system, should we allow the population to express its opinion on the model in question? At that point, as Mr. Thompson said, we would have a model to present, to explain, and we would set out its pros and cons. Ultimately, the population will decide if we should proceed with it.Electoral reformPublic consultationReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisKevinDobie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1350)[Translation]Does Mr. Thompson want to add something?KevinDobieStephenThompson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1350)[Translation]Thank you.Is that right, Ms. Loutfi?Electoral reformStephenThompsonCarolynLoutfi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1350)[Translation]You spoke about young people. Several groups came to meet with us, such as Samara and the Institut du Nouveau Monde. What emerged from their presentations was that the voting system is not necessarily a topic that will generate greater interest in politics among young people. We heard many of them say that they felt their vote did not count, but other elements emerged when they were questioned and consulted. I would like you to confirm or correct what I am saying. When young people were questioned, they expressed a lack of interest in politics. They said they were too busy, that it was difficult to get on the electors' list, and mentioned many other obstacles. Experts told us that when important issues were at stake, young people felt involved, and if we expressed an interest in their opinion, they were motivated to go and vote. We might see a repeat of what happened during the last election. In your opinion—I believe you said this, but I'd like to be sure—if the only thing we do is change the voting system, will this affect young people's level of interest in voting? Electoral reformVoter turnoutYoung peopleCarolynLoutfiCarolynLoutfi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1355)[Translation]If you had one recommendation to make today, in light if the discussions you have had with young people, what would it be?What you've just said regarding the fact that young people are not in the room, and that we've not gone out to meet with them either, is quite true. It would probably be our responsibility to go to high schools and colleges and have this same discussion. If you had one recommendation to submit today, aside from changing the voting system, regarding something that could be done to generate interest in politics among young people, what would it be? Electoral reformYoung peopleCarolynLoutfiCarolynLoutfi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1520)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to thank the three witnesses for taking the time to come and meet us. I have a question for each of the groups, I mean for the young people and the elders.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Alain Rayes: Let me start with experience. There is a lot of experience here! I have to find the right term so as not to ruffle any feathers. You know what I mean.My first question is for you, Mr. Trudel. You have many years of experience in politics. During the election campaign, I never heard any mention of this proposal by the Liberal government. I challenge anyone to find a national debate that clearly referred to changing the voting method. I think it was not really an issue and that people did not vote on that basis.That said, the government has already announced that it wants to change the current voting method. Surveys show that just 3% of the population is interested in this right now. I get the sense that the goal is to get people to believe that changing the voting method would solve the civic participation issues, and that worries me. When we hear that we will have proportional representation, that there will be proportional governments and so on, it is implied that this is a simple matter. In my view, however, the problem runs much deeper.My first question is very simple. In your view, Mr. Trudel, if the committee reaches a consensus and the government decides to proceed, should all Canadians be consulted before the voting method is changed? Electoral reformPublic consultationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisRémyTrudel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1525)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Trudel. If you compare proportional representation, whether preferential or some other method, with our current system, there is quite a significant difference in local representation. Everyone who has come to talk to us about proportional representation reminded us of the importance of local representation. There are two possible scenarios.The first would be the reduce the number of constituency MPs to make room for list MPs. This would necessarily increase the size of ridings and distance MPs from their role as local representative. I often give my own riding as an example. I have 40 municipalities. Tomorrow morning, if half of all riding MPs were eliminated and placed on a list, or if their number were reduced by 30% or 40%, this would necessarily increase riding size. This would weaken my close ties with my constituents. The second scenario is to increase the number of MPs. This would maintain the status quo as to the number of MPs and would establish a proportional system. In that case, nearly everyone agrees that Canadians are not ready to increase the number of MPs by 150, 200 or 300. That is politically unthinkable. My next question is for the three of you. If we had the choice between the two scenarios, would you still be in favour of a proportional system? As representatives of the Fédération étudiante collégiale du Québec and the Forum jeunesse de l'Île de Montréal, you say that is your proposal. I would also like to hear Mr. Trudel's opinion on that. We have a dilemma regarding the two scenarios. Between the two, I am inclined toward local representation, because I think that is the first thing people ask of me. They would like to vote for their MP and at most for the party or the government.Electoral boundariesElectoral reformRepresentation by populationRémyTrudelRaphaëlPilon-Robitaille//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1525)[Translation]Yes, but let us be clear about something. If you do that, you have to eliminate MPs to free up a hundred or so places on the list, otherwise you have to increase the number of MPs. It is not possible to maintain the current 338 ridings we have in Canada. All the experts have come and clearly presented those scenarios.Electoral boundariesElectoral reformRepresentation by populationRaphaëlPilon-RobitailleRaphaëlPilon-Robitaille//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1840)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to thank the two witnesses for being here today.For starters, if your system was applied today, I wouldn't be here talking to you because I would surely be among the ones who would have been cast aside. I received 33% of the votes in the last two elections, but if someone showed up in my riding today and did a poll on the street, I don't think anyone would find it fair that the candidate who received the highest percentage of votes and a majority of over 4,000 votes would not become the representative of their riding.So you'll understand that I have many reservations about the model you are proposing. You mentioned that choices need to be made. I think that no matter what voting system is chosen, whether it favours proportional, preferential or any other system, my colleagues from every party will tell you that the vast majority of experts and Canadians who have expressed their perspectives before the committee clearly care about having local representation.I'm not saying it's unanimous, but I think that even people who are in favour of a proportional voting system face a dilemma because of the list. Did you think about that before proposing your system? I acknowledge that our system isn't perfect, but it's not to the point where we need to go against the popular will that still seems fairly clear, going by what has been said before the committee.Electoral reformFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMireilleTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1840)[Translation]They are attached to their local representative.Electoral reformMireilleTremblayMireilleTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1840)[Translation]However, if we polled the people currently in the room, I think some of them would tell you that they voted for their MP, others would say that they voted for a political party, and still others for the party leader, namely, Justin Trudeau, Stephen Harper or Thomas Mulcair. There is no perfect model. No matter who you ask, the answers may be very different.Electoral reformVoting and votersMireilleTremblayMireilleTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1840)[Translation]With the model you're proposing, I understand that you are making the concession that it isn't necessarily individuals who win the most votes in their ridings who automatically become the representative for the constituents.What's your perspective on the legitimacy of the process we are currently using? Do you think our three weeks of consultations in Ottawa are sufficient to legitimize the process of changing the voting system in the House of Commons?Electoral reformPublic consultationMireilleTremblayMireilleTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1840)[Translation]I will move on to my last question since the chair is going to interrupt me soon, as is his duty.If you had the power to take action as prime minister and you had the flexibility to do it, what would you do to improve our system without changing the voting system?Electoral reformMireilleTremblayMireilleTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1845)[Translation]The chair is going to tell me my time is up soon, so if we used one word to summarize this, it would be “education”, wouldn't it?Electoral reformMireilleTremblayMireilleTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1845)[Translation]Perfect.Thank you very much.MireilleTremblayFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Hello. I'd like to thank everyone who has travelled to Joliette.This is a lovely town, Mr. Ste-Marie. I was just telling my colleagues that I got married in Joliette, in a church that's been converted into a library. I definitely plan to take a picture of that library after the meeting.Mr. Breslaw, I have two questions for you.I used to be in municipal politics. There are systems that resemble that, but this is the first time I've heard of a system like that for a federal government, or even a provincial government.I want to make sure I understand your model correctly. Which party would form the government, the party that got the most votes, or the party that got the most seats? In certain cases, one party might get more votes but fewer seats, or vice-versa.Electoral reformPolitical powerWeighted voting systemFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJonBreslaw//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1330)[Translation]So, concretely, a party with fewer seats in the House of Commons could form the government, because of your calculation system, which gives more weight during votes.Electoral reformPolitical powerWeighted voting systemJonBreslawJonBreslaw//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1335)[Translation]Got it.I'd like to get a good grasp of the calculation system you spoke about.Currently, in the House, the Liberal Party, like the Conservatives earlier, has a majority of seats, with 39% of the popular vote. Under your system, the Liberals would have the same number of seats as they do now, but when the time comes to vote on motions, bills or other matters, their votes would be worth 39%. They would therefore have to form some kind of partnership or consensus with the rest of the House to get their bills adopted. Is that right?Coalition governmentElectoral reformWeighted voting systemJonBreslawJonBreslaw//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1335)[Translation]I understand. Many thanks.Mr. Nikolenyi, I'm a bit surprised by what you've told us, to be honest.We have heard many professors from universities or political science departments. You said that, in countries with a proportional system, people vote more. I took part in a meeting in Parliament, where Dr. André Blais, a specialist in electoral systems at the Université de Montréal, and Ms. Maioni, from McGill University, told us that this figure—this statistic—is a myth. In countries with proportional systems, the participation rate increased by approximately 3% when the system was implemented. That is not necessarily significant. There is a worldwide trend that cuts across electoral systems: fewer and fewer people are voting. Other factors are causing people to lack motivation to go out and vote. I won't list them all, because you undoubtedly know them.Is the statistic you have given us documented? Could we have access to it? It seems to run counter to what we've hear from the other specialists.Electoral reformProportional representationVoter turnoutJonBreslawCsabaNikolenyi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1335)[Translation]Yes, I would like you to submit the documentation associated with your assertion.Electoral reformFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1335)[Translation]We already have the documentation from Mr. Blais.Electoral reformFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1510)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses for being with us.Ms. Roberge, we are meeting with a lot of experts, university professors, citizens and organizations that have access to considerable documentation. However, the data often contradict each other. In this context, I'd like to know if you have documents that confirm your figures and assertions. Just yesterday, a university expert, who came to speak to us about voting systems, asserted with certainty that in the countries that had proportional voting systems, those systems had no impact on the participation of women, or on the number of women elected. He said that it was not that, but the measures deployed to change the political culture, which brought about change.I remember that, last week in Ottawa, a woman affiliated with a university— in Vancouver, I believe—appeared by videoconference. Each time we spoke about voting systems, she repeated that if we show the will, and impose strict rules, the desired results, including 50% women candidates, will necessarily be achieved.We are trying to achieve many things. We want to change the voting system. If the objective is truly to obtain 50-50 representation, and the majority of the public is not preoccupied about voting systems—indeed, it has been said that the discussion interests only 3% of people—then in order to truly change things, perhaps we must resort to more modest means.We are talking about women and minorities. Yesterday, a witness said something that really struck me. It was the first time I became aware of those issues. Based on what he said, we want women to have the same representation as their share of the population, which is 50.4%. There are now more women than men.He asked whether all religious groups, minorities, immigrants, homosexuals, transgender people, youth, seniors and indigenous people—perhaps a variety of groups in the case of indigenous people—would be represented, and where the line would be drawn so that people can make decisions and take their place.My question is somewhat broad. I'd like to hear your comments on the subject.Electoral reformEqual opportunitiesMixed-member proportional representationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMercédezRoberge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1510)[Translation]He wasn't the only one. A few of them told us it had no impact.Electoral reformMercédezRobergeMercédezRoberge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1515)[Translation]Very good.I simply look forward to obtaining the documentation that corroborates your assertions.Electoral reformMercédezRobergeAlainRayesRichmond—Arthabaska//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1515)[Translation]My second question is about all the other groups, which you have called "racialized." That's the first time I hear that term. I imagine it's a group that brings together various people. That's good. Sorry about my ignorance in that regard. Should we break the population down into each and every one of the groups in order to give them a place within the political parties? Electoral reformEqual opportunitiesAlainRayesRichmond—ArthabaskaMercédezRoberge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1345)[Translation]Mr. Chair...YvanDutilFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1405)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us here today. My first question is very simple.Mr. Rémillard, at the start of your presentation, you said you had submitted a brief. I do not have a copy of it.Electoral reformFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1405)[Translation]So we will be able to see your brief because, initially, I was a bit confused by all the figures you presented. I would like to be able to look them over quietly. I would also like to say good luck to the interpreters, who I look at from time to time. We will take the time to look over your brief because I am very interested in your calculations.I have a question for you, Mr. Dutil.You referred to an equitable majority vote. Based on our meetings with various experts and members of the public, two main themes emerged from the testimony of those who are unhappy with the status quo. First is the lack of interest in politics. There are all kinds of reasons for this depending on who you talk to. Some voters say their vote does not count while others says they do not vote because they do not have the time, due to medical problems or because they were outside their riding on voting day. I will not get into all the details on that. There is also the question of representation in Parliament which, in their view, does not reflect the percentage of the vote nationally. Some voters are also very concerned about local representation. You also touched on that briefly.As to your equitable majority system, as I understand it, MPs are added if necessary. Could you please go over that part of your presentation again?Counting of votesElectoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformProportional representationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]I would rather have a comparison with the current system. Would people still vote the same way under your system?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformProportional representationVoting and votersYvanDutilYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]If there are four or five candidates, people vote and the candidate with the most votes is elected.Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformProportional representationVoting and votersYvanDutilYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]That means that, on election night, the candidate who won the most votes is not necessarily the one who is elected to Parliament.Counting of votesElectoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformProportional representationYvanDutilYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]Consider my case, for example.I was elected with 32.7% of the votes. On election night, I beat my closest rival by more than 5,000 votes. Depending on the calculation method, I might not have been declared elected by the Chief Electoral Officer. I imagine that calculation is not done instantly.Counting of votesElectoral reformProportional representationYvanDutilYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]Milliseconds because there is a machine that calculates the algorithm. The new result is announced and my closest rival is declared elected. Counting of votesElectoral reformProportional representationYvanDutilYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]Very nice! I do not have any more questions about this voting method. I will stop you here.Electoral reformYvanDutilYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1410)[Translation]In your opinion, with respect to the issues that concern people and that you have surely heard before you made your calculations, are there other methods that would yield better representation and generate more public interest in voting, without necessarily changing the voting method? Electoral reformParticipatory democracyVoter turnoutYvanDutilYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1415)[Translation]I have one final question for you.If I understood correctly, you said that your studies and the documentation available to you do not necessarily indicate that proportional representation has an impact on the equitable representation of men and women. Did I understand that correctly? Electoral reformEqual opportunitiesProportional representationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisYvanDutil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1415)[Translation]I would like to know if that information could be provided to the committee. It does not necessarily correspond to what we have heard.Electoral reformEqual opportunitiesProportional representationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1555)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Derriennic, one of the things that strikes me about this matter, and based on my political experience, is the importance for the citizens of Canada, or at least of Quebec, to vote for a local representative. In my view, if we asked the people what is the most important consideration in making their choice, this would be one of the predominant factors.You talked about a closed list system, and I understood it fully from your last explanation. I personally don't think it's so simple, but perhaps people could grasp it if it were explained to them.Take, for example, Quebec City, which has seven federal ridings. So there would be one block of seven Conservative MPs, one block of seven Liberals, one block of seven New Democrats, one block of seven Green Party representatives, and so on. People would make their choices in order of preference, from one to five, for example.By doing that, I feel that we would be overlooking the candidates' skills, experience and background. Once the calculations are done, some candidates might wonder how this or that candidate will be appointed. For example, the names of which seven candidates would appear on the Conservatives' list? In your view, would that be done from a list predetermined by the party?BallotsElectoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformPreferential voting systemFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-PierreDerriennic//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1600)[Translation]By the way, the candidate is not imposed by the party but by the party members in the constituency—Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformPreferential voting systemJean-PierreDerriennicJean-PierreDerriennic//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1600)[Translation]Let me go back to the same exercise we did for Quebec City. In my region, in central Quebec, there are three MPs. In this region, people vote primarily for the Conservatives. When my constituents are going to vote, they have a choice. Some people vote for the platform, others vote for the party and others vote for the leader—in our system, we seem to give a lot of power to the leader. However, I have to say that other citizens vote for the individual. I think people win an election because of their reputation, their experience, in particular. Suppose we bring together candidates from the various parties on their respective lists, and a person wants to vote for the Bloc. It is possible that the candidate of their choice, who lives in their riding, finishes in sixth or seventh place, and therefore is not elected. I want to get this straight. I'm not judging the model you are proposing. I feel that grouping the individuals devalues the vote, compared to the current system. People who voted Conservative in my constituency did not do so for the leader or the platform, but for Alain Rayes. They made an informed choice. It would not be the case once the candidates were grouped into a list. Am I wrong?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformPreferential voting systemJean-PierreDerriennicJean-PierreDerriennic//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1600)[Translation]Ultimately, yes, if I have to choose between the two options in your system. However, I am not sure I would opt for this system.Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformPreferential voting systemJean-PierreDerriennicJean-PierreDerriennic//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1600)[Translation]Okay, it is very clear, Mr. Derriennic.I want to make sure I understand. In your system, there would be the same number of members as right now. There would not be more or fewer members. This system would allow MPs to rack up a higher percentage of votes. People who are in favour of proportional representation claim that, in the case of the Conservatives... We always give the example of the Conservatives and the Liberals, but I often like to say that, in Alberta, the NDP has a majority with 39% of the vote. Distortion is everywhere.Would your system allow us to be closer to a percentage of seats rather than a percentage of votes?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformPreferential voting systemJean-PierreDerriennicJean-PierreDerriennic//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1600)[Translation]Do you want to connect your model to a regionalized preferential system?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformPreferential voting systemJean-PierreDerriennicJean-PierreDerriennic//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1845)[Translation]I thank the two witnesses for being here with us today.Mr. Colas, you referred to the people you heard in Winnipeg, Regina and Toronto. Yesterday in Toronto, there were a lot of people who said, generally speaking, the things you already heard. I know that there are people who are listening to us live, and there are surely some who will attack me on Twitter after I've said what I'm going to say.We just had an election campaign that lasted 78 days. I can swear on the Bible that no citizen spoke to me about electoral reform. According to a recent poll, this issue is of interest to 3% of the electorate. There are certain people who have an interest in electoral reform, but I doubt that they represent the majority of the population. I am not at all convinced that people are concerned by the local representation of their MP. In your model, which I have not yet had the opportunity to look at, you talk about a two-thirds, one-third ratio. Are you suggesting that we increase the size of ridings in order to decrease the number of members on the list, or that we add members in order to maintain the size of the ridings?There are 40 municipalities in my riding. Given that I spend two thirds of the year in Ottawa, without taking into account committee work and other activities, I find it hard to imagine that I could still serve my electors well if my riding were made bigger. Citizens often tell me that they would like to vote for me, but that they do not want to vote for my leader or for my party, which also implies that they object to the party's program. In my opinion, electors will vote either for the leader, the candidate, or the program and the party. I think that electors have a global view of the list of proposals.ConstituenciesElectoral reformMembers of ParliamentMixed-member proportional representationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisBernardColas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1850)[Translation]I see.What do you have to say about that, Mr. Montigny?BernardColasEricMontigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1415)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to the witnesses for being here. I also thank all the people in the audience for being here.Mr. Di Ciano, you said that changing the voting system may be the most important decision in a democracy. And you, Mr. Essensa, you said that public consensus was essential to changing the voting system in our democracy.Justin Trudeau was very clear in announcing that he wanted the October 19, 2015, election to be the last under the current system. If the Prime Minister decides to change the voting system, should the public be able to have a say in that, through a referendum, of course?Electoral reformPublic consultationReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisGregEssensa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1420)[Translation]Mr. Chair, would you like us to allow those who want to settle in more time?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1420)[Translation]Do you want me to start again?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1420)[Translation]I will be a little quicker.Mr. Di Ciano, you pointed out that changing the voting system may be the most important decision in a democracy. Mr. Essensa talked about the importance of reaching public consensus before changing the voting system. If the Prime Minister and the Liberal government decide to go ahead and change the voting system—as the Prime Minister has announced before—would a referendum be a good way for all Canadians to have their say on the matter? More specifically, would that be a good way to consult everyone and make the change legitimate?Electoral reformReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisGregEssensa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1425)[Translation]What do you think, Mr. Di Ciano?GregEssensaJustinDi Ciano//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1425)[Translation]Thank you.My second question is still for both of you.During the election campaign, the Prime Minister announced that he wanted to change the voting system. However, before consultation was under way, before the committee was formed, and before a decision was made, the Prime Minister already rejected the status quo as an option. He expressed his personal preference in various interviews and on various occasions.Do you think it is fair that, in this process that some see as legitimate and others not so much, the status quo is rejected even before the process is under way?Electoral reformElectoral systemJustinDi CianoGregEssensa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1425)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Di Ciano, what do you think?GregEssensaJustinDi Ciano//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1425)[Translation]Thank you very much.JustinDi CianoFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. ChairMs. Stephenson, you mentioned the importance of local representation. I completely agree with you on that. You say that it is essential and that people want to keep it. Proponents of the change are proposing a mixed member proportional voting system, but we see some tension between local representation and the representation in Parliament, which reflects more the percentage of votes won by all the candidates in all the constituencies. According to you, is there a mixed member proportional voting system that would help us keep our local representation? Or do we really have to consider increasing the number of MPs in the Parliament of Canada?Electoral reformMixed-member proportional representationRegional diversityFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLauraStephenson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1550)[Translation]Thank you.You also mentioned that, in the case of representation that better reflects the make-up of the population—more women and minorities represented in Parliament—changing the voting system would not necessarily improve the situation. Could we, through tangible ways in elections, improve the representation of minorities, women and people with disabilities in Parliament without actually changing the voting system? Can you give me one or two examples? Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformEqual opportunitiesMinoritiesLauraStephensonLauraStephenson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1555)[Translation]You have studied and written about referendums. A number of people are opposed to submitting the question to Canadians and asking for their opinions on the matter. If people vote against the proposal for a referendum, does that automatically force us to maintain the status quo? According to you, if there were a referendum and it were rejected, would it be because people are resistant to any change? Could it simply be because they are happy with what they have?Electoral reformReferendaLauraStephensonLauraStephenson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1925)[Translation]Good evening. Thank you all for being here, whether you are a spectator in the room or one of the three witnesses.Mr. Thomas, a little earlier, my colleague was talking about a study done in Manitoba. According to the study, 50% of people who did not vote said that they would have voted had the voting system been different.A study by the Institut du nouveau monde in Quebec—which, let me just say right away, is in favour of a proportional voting system—combined a survey with group consultations. The study shows the reasons given by the young and not so young for not voting.The reasons include people’s lack of interest in politics, people being too busy, problems with registration on the voters list, disillusionment, people not liking the electoral issues, people being out of the riding for the vote, and health issues. So there are all sorts of reasons other than the voting system. Personally, I have no doubt about that. I rely on the data from Professor André Blais, who is an expert in proportional voting systems in Quebec, at the University of Montreal. I see you nodding. You seem to know him or you may have already read his documents. He clearly stated that there will be no difference in the percentage of people voting if we shift to a proportional voting system. The difference is of 3%, give or take. So there is not really an upward trend.That said, I am among those who believe that we could take tangible action to have people vote and to have more women. Witnesses have told us that we could change some party rules without necessarily changing the voting system.Could you name some of the tangible actions that you think could be taken—apart from changing the voting system—and that would ensure that we would have better representation, better accessibility? I would like to hear what you have to say. Are there one or two things you could share with me?Electoral reformVoter turnoutFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisPaulThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]One of the arguments often put forward by those in favour of a proportional voting system is that it promotes better representation of women and minorities. Do you think that, with a rule that could be implemented without changing the voting system, we could improve those statistics and reach 50% of women and a better representation of minorities?In your view, are there ways to achieve a result like that? Let's go quickly, because there's not a lot of time left.Electoral reformMinoritiesVoting and votersFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisPaulThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1935)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I just want to take a second to make a comment and thank the other witnesses.Let me just congratulate you. I did not have an opportunity to ask you questions. I admire the work that you do for people with disabilities, who don't have access to the same services as everyone else.Thank you.Electoral reformFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1420)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I echo my colleagues in thanking the witnesses for joining us today.My first question goes to Mr. Koop. You talked about the importance of local representation. I am one of those who believes in that deeply; it is a priority for the public. I have actually asked people that question and most, if not all, would like to be able to vote for their member of Parliament. Personally, I am very concerned about any other voting system. I feel that you highlighted it well in your remarks. You say that you would be in favour of a proportional system if it could protect local representation. However, to achieve that, according to what all the experts tell us, we would have to substantially increase the number of members of Parliament. My constituency contains 40 municipalities. It takes me an hour and a half to drive from one end to the other. I cannot imagine having a larger territory to cover and being able to serve my fellow citizens equally well.So, in the best of all worlds, do you know of a model that would allow that? Mr. Kidd seems to have presented one, but do you know of another one?ConstituenciesElectoral reformMembers of ParliamentProportional representationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisRoyceKoop//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1420)[Translation]My understanding is that, to get to the mixed-member proportional system as you see it, without sacrificing representation, you would automatically have to substantially increase the number of members in order to keep that close relationship. Is that correct?Electoral reformMixed-member proportional representationRoyceKoopRoyceKoop//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1420)[Translation]Thank you.My second question is for you too. If I am not mistaken, you are saying that any proportional system would increase the participation rate of those voting in an election. Last March 12, in Parliament in Ottawa, I attended a presentation by Professor André Blais, an expert in voting systems at the Université de Montréal. He was with Antonia Maioni, from McGill University. He answered a question from the audience about whether proportional voting would lead to a higher rate of participation.The answer that he gave, based on a number of analyses he has conducted from around the world, is that there is not really a direct effect on the voting percentage, plus or minus 3%. So it may even go down. He talked about New Zealand, where there has been a drop of 10% since a system of that kind was put in place. He said no, the effect of that model is often to increase the number of parties and to reduce the participation rate. This is not my position; here is what he said: “Studies show that the proportional model has no effect in increasing the voting rate among minorities in the way that the Liberals would like to change the trend. Generally, however—and, it is true, we see it in comments from the public—the word proportional inspires confidence in people and is perceived as more equitable.”Do you have any documents, studies or research that you have done and that you could provide to us, to confirm your statement that any proportional method that we might put in place would increase the participation rate?Electoral reformProportional representationVoter turnoutRoyceKoopRoyceKoop//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1425)[Translation]I was asking if you have any documentation or research that confirms your perception.Electoral reformRoyceKoopRoyceKoop//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1425)[Translation]Is it possible for you to send that to the committee?Electoral reformRoyceKoopRoyceKoop//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1425)[Translation]Thank you.RoyceKoopFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to the three witnesses, and to the people in the room, for joining us.My question goes to Mr. Gibson and Ms. Smoke. It's a very simple question to start with.After the committee has tabled a report, would you agree that its recommendation should be put to the people in a referendum, so that everyone can express their opinion one way or the other?Electoral reformReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisDarrenGibson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1550)[Translation]Ms. Smoke, do you agree with Mr. Gibson's position?Electoral reformReferendaDarrenGibsonGinaSmoke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1555)[Translation]According to the comments you made earlier with a lot of intensity, you in your organization have learned over time that each service counts, that everyone must make themselves heard. I think that your words were the same as those you used a few minutes previously. You even finished by saying that it seemed obvious to you.Since we know that political parties are organizations with their own interests, is it really up to them to make the final decision on such an important issue? You work for a union. When the time comes to vote for a strike or for better working conditions, for example, do you really consult all your members to ask for their opinion? When all is said and done, wouldn't you be in favour of citizens being able to express themselves?Electoral reformReferendaGinaSmokeGinaSmoke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1555)[Translation]So they should be able to express their opinions?Electoral reformGinaSmokeGinaSmoke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1555)[Translation]Mr. Schwartz, I would like to go into that matter more deeply. I am not really convinced that politicians of all stripes will be able to reach consensus on this. I often hear people say that it is part of Justin Trudeau's election platform. However, all the polls show that only 3% of the people are interested in it.Over the summer, I asked an intern to go through all the national debates held during the election campaign, which lasted 78 days and which we all considered to be very long. There was no significant debate between party leaders on electoral reform. It may have been mentioned; it may have slipped into a conversation.At present, it seems that, because it is one of a list of a hundred or so proposals, it would be legitimate for a prime minister elected by a voting system that he wants to change, that he considers illegitimate, to basically decide to make the change in Parliament. I would like to hear your comments about that.Electoral reformGinaSmokeBryanSchwartz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1505)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Boda and Mr. Smith, thank you for being here today. I join my colleague in thanking everyone here today to attend this meeting of this important committee.Mr. Boda, my first question is for you.I will certainly seek your opinion, too, Mr. Smith.You said in your intervention that election administrators were all concerned about access for all eligible voters. You said that these administrators must make sure that the provisions on the integrity of the vote are effective and free from any consequences that would deprive voters of their right to vote. You said that these provisions must facilitate the vote, not hinder it, and that adopting an electoral system that would encourage the participation of voters could well be one of the best options for reversing this long decline in voter turnout.Could you please tell us a little more about these issues. When we take a look at the global trend, we see that regardless the voting system, the number of people who vote is declining in almost every country worldwide right now. I find it very surprising that a correlation is being established between the voting system and a possible increase in the number of voters who vote. Furthermore, 70% of Canadians voted in Canada's last election. You also state that we should start to be concerned if the voter turnout rate drops below 50%.Do you think changing the voting system will increase voter turnout in the medium and long-term?Electoral reformVoter turnoutFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMichaelBoda//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1510)[Translation]Mr. Smith, would you like to add anything?MichaelBodaCharlesSmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1635)[Translation]Thank you both for being here.Ms. Deguire, in your presentation, you quoted polls to document what you were saying or your organization's position. You gave one figure of 17%. There are also plenty of other polls on many other topics, including the referendum afterwards.Why use this poll to support your vision, when according to almost all polls released in Canada, Canadians want to have an opportunity to express their opinion through a referendum? Yet, in your organization's position or in your presentation, you don't take this into account.Canadian Labour CongressElectoral reformPublic opinion pollsReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisDarlaDeguire//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1640)[Translation]We had a very good meeting in Ottawa a few weeks ago. Young people from the Institut du Nouveau Monde came to speak to us. It's a Quebec organization that does a lot with young people, in particular. As an aside, they are in favour of changing the voting system.Looking at the observations they made after asking young people about their lack of interest in voting, we can see that no one necessarily spoke about the voting system or said that they felt under-represented. However, what did emerge was fairly clear.The main reasons people 18 to 34 years of age did not vote were a lack of interest in politics, quite simply, and being too busy to vote. The third reason for not voting, according to the categories, is the problem of registering, which we are hearing a lot about in the regions. I don't think that changing the voting system will result in more or less. You can change it without changing the voting system. Adding polling stations throughout would be very simple.We also asked seniors. The Conservative Party didn't conduct this survey, but a completely neutral organization that is in favour of a change so that we have a mixed member proportional system. Seniors gave more personal reasons, such as being outside the riding, having health problems or being disillusioned with politics altogether.I often ask myself this question. We often come back to changing the voting system. Having said that, I'm not necessarily for or against this change, but I find that perhaps we are asking the wrong questions. Today, I'm not convinced—and I'm trying to let myself be convinced by some—that we will have greater turnout and greater interest by changing the voting system. In almost every democracy around the world, even in countries that have adopted the proportional vote, voter turnout has dropped. In New Zealand, the percentage of voters has dropped from 85% to 75% since they adopted a proportional voting system.Electoral reformVoter turnoutYoung peopleDarlaDeguireFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Good evening.Mr. Ward, like Mr. Ste-Marie, I really liked how dynamic your presentation was.However, there is one aspect that I cannot support. At the end of one of your comments, you referred to a third world country. I have been living in Canada for about 45 years now. When I look at the country that we have built with our governments, even if they are not perfect in representative terms, I consider that we are a long way from the third world. I just wanted to make that clear.Professor Loewen, who testified before us when we were in Ottawa, made an observation about representation. People who talk about a proportional voting system or a mixed-member proportional system in all its forms, talk a lot about better representation in Parliament. He told us to be very careful because representation in Parliament and representation in government are two different things. The political parties might actually be better represented in Parliament in terms of votes. However, the government could be made up of a coalition of parties that failed to win a majority. We could easily be talking about one party with 45% of the votes and a small party with 6%. That is one scenario. They would then be represented in the government, which would in turn be making the decisions. However, a second party with 35% of the votes would have no representation at all in government for four years. That had an impact on me. It was the first time that anyone, a university professor in this case, had mentioned it to us. I would like to hear your specific opinion. Are you of the same mind? He was the first witness to really mention it and it is quite important.Coalition governmentElectoral reformPolitical partiesProportional representationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLeeWard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1930)[Translation]Did you count the time the speakers needed to put on their headsets?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1935)[Translation]I will be quick.Mr. Ward, are you for or against people being able to express their opinions by means of a referendum in order to ratify a change in the method of voting? Electoral reformReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLeeWard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1935)[Translation]At the moment, Justin Trudeau's government is leaning towards a preferential system.If he decided on a system like that rather than a mixed-member proportional system, would you accept that, given that he has a majority?Electoral reformPreferential voting systemReferendaLeeWardLeeWard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1100)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to start by thanking our three witnesses for being here with us today.As my colleague mentioned earlier, those who want to change the voting system to a proportional system, mixed-member or otherwise, always talk about how people regularly tell them their vote doesn't count.Yesterday, however, the Institut du Nouveau Monde representative talked about a survey that revealed the real reasons people gave for not voting. Survey respondents said that they were too busy, that they were dealing with a problem with voter registration, that they felt cynical or uninterested in politics, that none of the planks in the candidates' or parties' platforms interested them, that they did not trust the parties, that they were out of the riding, that they had health problems and so on.I get the feeling that people saying their vote doesn't count has more to do with the fact that their political party didn't win the previous election. That frustration can carry over from one election to the next. Am I right about that?Regardless of the voting system in place, voter turnout is down worldwide. That's why changing the voting system will not, in and of itself, motivate people to vote in greater numbers or develop a greater interest in election issues. I think what we really need is a culture- and education-based change.You said it well. The three young people who came to talk to us really emphasized the importance of civic education about politics. Is that right?Would you please comment on that?Education and trainingElectoral reformInformation disseminationVoting and votersFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisGrahamFox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1105)[Translation]Do the other witnesses have anything to add?GrahamFoxDavidMcLaughlin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]In 2003, when I entered politics for the first time at the provincial level, a person whom I consider to be very wise gave me some advice. He may be listening now via the web. He always told me that, as long as I treat the voters as intelligent people, they will respond intelligently. The fact is that the people, the citizens, are always right when given a chance to express themselves. That flows naturally from us taking the time to ensure they are well-informed.Changing the voting system is really the centrepiece of reform, but we all agree that there are many other things we can do, so there is something I would like all three witnesses to explain to me. When consulted haphazardly via opinion polls or referenda on this issue, people—in Canada especially—rejected the proposed option or preferred to keep the status quo most of the time. That's true despite everything those pushing for change say about voting systems, all of the lip service about changing the system, and even the fact that governments have the financial means to educate people through the Chief Electoral Officer. I'm not talking about consulting interest groups because, when they present their proposals, apparently everyone completely agrees with them.Electoral reformParticipatory democracyPublic consultationReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisGrahamFox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Right.Electoral reformParticipatory democracyPublic consultationReferendaGrahamFoxGrahamFox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]It was 57%.Electoral reformParticipatory democracyPublic consultationReferendaGrahamFoxGrahamFox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]There could be 50% plus one who want change.Electoral reformParticipatory democracyPublic consultationReferendaGrahamFoxGrahamFox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]I'm not saying that people reject the proposed system, not at all. People don't reject an option simply to reject it. Maybe, on some level, they like the existing system.Electoral reformParticipatory democracyPublic consultationReferendaGrahamFoxGrahamFox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]I would like to hear your opinion on this trend, except with respect to what we saw in British Columbia.Electoral reformParticipatory democracyPublic consultationReferendaGrahamFoxGrahamFox//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1935)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I join with all my colleagues around the table in applauding the witnesses for their presentations, their commitment and the passion they show when they speak to this issue, and undoubtedly, as they do their work within their respective organizations. Mr. Gunn, congratulations. Like many of my colleagues, I have also participated in meetings with students in schools. I want to congratulate you on all your hard work, on your analysis of the situation and, much like the two other witnesses, on recognizing the importance of education. You've given us, and all politicians, a real lesson here today. I hope the committee will have the maturity to properly document all your comments in the drafting of its final report.Ms. Hilderman, I have been a member of this committee for a week. I wasn't part of its past work, but I did have a chance to follow that work from a distance and read a lot of the literature. This is the first time I have seen a non-partisan citizen engagement organization refrain from taking a stance on this issue and remain completely neutral. You could have easily fallen into that trap when you answered the last question, but you didn't take the bait and still remained neutral. For that, I applaud you.I find your document to be quite interesting. It explores all aspects and lets people objectively form their own opinion. As politicians, we are all biased, whatever our opinion may be of these issues. We all want to improve our democracy, but we all have our own interests in that regard.I have a proposal to make. If, one day, we had someone else in the position of Minister for Democratic Reform and he or she needed someone to provide advice or host meetings, we would seek someone who is completely neutral, that is, someone like you. Your presentation was fantastic in that regard. I particularly liked the passage that reads, “Yet dissatisfaction with how democracy functions is not only a Canadian phenomenon”.It is often implied that Canada is the only place having problems in this area. However, if you look at global trends surrounding voter turnout, it's declining everywhere—and I want to stress this point—regardless of the voting method used. Indeed, this is not only a Canadian phenomenon. It's wrong to say that a mixed member proportional system will solve everything.You emphasized this nicely in the passage that reads, “Indeed, countries who use other electoral systems continue to have citizens who express frustration with politics. In other words, changing the electoral system does not guarantee a significant boost in satisfaction with the way democracy works.” This explains the importance of education that you have all mentioned.Mr. Vézina, I want to make a small correction to something you said. A party does not win a majority government in Canada with just 32% or 33% of the vote, but rather 39% or 40% of the vote. In our case, we experienced this, since we won 32% or 33% of the vote, and we are in opposition.You talked a lot about people who support a mixed member proportional system or any proportional system and people who say that their vote doesn't count under the current system. However, when we spoke to people who live in Scotland—as Mr. Gunn mentioned, and rightly so—they told us that despite declining voter turnout, the issues are what really had an impact on their interest.You indicated this in your presentation, but you only added this aspect at the very end. Experts have expressed their views on the main reasons for the public’s lack of interest in politics. Personally, I haven't heard many people saying they thought their vote didn't count. Rather, a small group of people really interested in politics are the ones saying that after elections. When they're happy with the results, of course there's no longer a problem. I'm wondering if you could expand on the points mentioned on page 4 of your document, aspects that really have a direct impact on people's willingness to get out and vote, regardless of their age group. Could you clarify that for us?Citizenship educationElectoral reformElectoral systemEqual opportunitiesInformation disseminationMajority governmentMixed-member proportional representationPartisanshipPolitical crisisProportional representationSamara Centre for DemocracyVoter turnoutVoting and votersYoung peopleFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1940)[Translation]I'll have another five-minute period later during which you can answer my question.DominicVézinaDominicVézina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1940)[Translation]Yes, in the middle of your brief.DominicVézinaDominicVézina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1940)[Translation]Yes, exactly. You did a good job highlighting those factors.Electoral reformVoter turnoutYoung peopleDominicVézinaDominicVézina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1940)[Translation]Is there any reason to believe that those points have no connection to our voting system?If we were to increase education and awareness in that regard, would that automatically increase young people's interest, regardless of the method of voting? Can you confirm that?Citizenship educationElectoral reformInformation disseminationVoter turnoutYoung peopleDominicVézinaDominicVézina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1940)[Translation]I'm very familiar with it.DominicVézinaDominicVézina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1940)[Translation]Thank you very much.DominicVézinaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1520)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My first question is for you, Mr. Bricker.In your presentation, you said that holding consultations was not enough, but that it was important to see what the people really thought. Perhaps those are not the exact words you used, but I would like to know what you mean. Should we do more than just holding consultations over four weeks by going to certain places in Canada? Should we use other types of consultations, such as surveys?Electoral reformPublic consultationFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisDarrellBricker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1520)[Translation]According to the results of the survey that you presented for the first time today, you conclude that 3% of Canadians are currently following the consultations. So 19% of the people who were surveyed know that the consultations have started and 16% of them are interested. You are talking about an elite interested in politics.Overall, according to your monthly and annual surveys or those carried out during various elections, what is the percentage of citizens who truly follow politics and are very familiar with the platforms of the various political parties? Is the percentage about the same?Electoral reformInformation collectionResearch and researchersSurveysDarrellBrickerDarrellBricker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1520)[Translation]The minister or the prime minister tells us that the people voted for the Liberals. The two other parties say that the percentage of their votes combined would give them the legitimacy to make this change without consulting the entire population. Can we suppose that, even by adding all those votes, not all the citizens who voted for them were aware of this aspect among the many proposals brought forward and were in favour of it? We are talking about a hundred proposals for each political party. Statistically, could we say that?Electoral reformPolitical programsDarrellBrickerDarrellBricker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1520)[Translation]To have more legitimacy on such a fundamental issue, would the idea of promising a referendum at the end of the process add a lot of credibility in the eyes of the public regarding the work that we do?Electoral reformReferendaDarrellBrickerDarrellBricker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My colleague made an argument for the mixed-member proportional voting method in which each vote must count. He mentioned that, in the last election, the votes of nine million people did not count.When I bring this up with people in my constituency, they all wonder which options would be open to them if there were to be a change. I explain the different voting methods to them, I tell them about the mixed-member proportional vote and I explain that the number of constituencies would have to be reduced by about half. I use myself as an example and I tell them that their MP would have to have a larger constituency. Now, I represent a rural constituency that includes 40 municipalities. If I was newly elected in a larger constituency, I could easily double that number of municipalities.But my constituents say that their priority is to have access to their MP so that they can tell him about their concerns and so that he can properly represent them in Ottawa and properly bring forward their concerns for society.So that makes me a little distrustful of this model. When people tell me that they want to have access to their MP and I think about the time that MPs spend in Ottawa, almost eight months per year, I try to imagine what I would do in a different situation.I would like to put some questions to our three witnesses and I would like them to give yes or no answers. Do you consider that the procedure established by the current government is a good one, yes or no?Go ahead, Mr. Gibson.Electoral reformFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisGordonGibson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]Your turn, Mr. Bricker.GordonGibsonDarrellBricker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]Yes or no: do you consider that the government has allocated a reasonable amount of time in order to fulfill this mandate of reforming the voting system, as they announced to the people in advance? What is your opinion, Mr. Gibson?Electoral reformRichardJohnstonGordonGibson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Gibson, would you be in favour of the committee ultimately recommending a referendum to legitimize this whole approach, yes or no?Electoral reformReferendaRichardJohnstonGordonGibson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1620)[Translation]Are you in the 50% of the people who are satisfied with the current voting method, yes or no?Let me start with you, Mr. Johnston.Electoral reformFirst-past-the-post systemRichardJohnstonRichardJohnston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1620)[Translation]Mr. Bricker, are you satisfied with the current voting method? Are you in the 50% of the people who are satisfied with the current method? Can you give a quick yes or no answer?Electoral reformFirst-past-the-post systemDarrellBrickerFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1620)[Translation]Mr. Gibson, do you want to add anything?DarrellBrickerGordonGibson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1110)[Translation]Let me welcome the witnesses and thank them for participating in our work. Before I begin, I would like to set the record straight.My colleague joked a little and implied that some members are in favour of the status quo. Our opinion is that everyone should be able to speak up and that there are a number of options, not just one, on the table. So I would like to clarify that situation, which I find unfortunate.I now have a few questions, particularly for the witnesses from Germany.You said that, in your country, there is a movement of citizens who would like to change your voting system and that, to do so, a referendum would be needed, which we think is a perfectly fine approach. We believe that the public must be able to express its opinion on changing the voting system. Can you tell me what are the arguments made by those who want to change the proportional voting system in Germany?Electoral reformGermanyProportional representationReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJoachimBehnke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1110)[Translation]I agree with the comments made by my colleague opposite. She said that we all hope to have a voting system that is strong enough for people to believe that every vote counts. All those in favour of the proportional voting system say that every vote will count if we adopt this method.According to the statistics from your two countries on the percentage of people who vote, we see that, from 1997 to the last election, despite the fact that you have a proportional system, fewer and fewer people have been voting. The voting system does not directly lead to increased interest in the elections, but rather to a drop in voter turnout from one election to the next.Am I mistaken in saying that?Electoral reformScotlandVoter turnoutJoachimBehnkeChrisHighcock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1115)[Translation]Am I to understand that it’s not the fact of having a proportional or a first past the post system that gets more and more people interested in voting? Is it the interest in the election, the referendum or the issue that makes a difference?Electoral reformScotlandVoter turnoutChrisHighcockAndyO'Neill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Ms. Pitcaithly, you previously said that most people will vote when they feel that their vote counts and that it depends more on the issue than the voting system in place.According to the statistics on voter turnout in your country and around the world, there is a downward trend, and it's not necessarily because of the voting system. You said that your system is quite complex and, to my great surprise, that many people do not understand all the implications of their votes. I see that your role is also to suggest changes and improvements to your proportional system, which is not perfect, like all the other electoral systems around the world.I guess you have made changes since it was first implemented. Does it take a long time for the changes to be applied to the voting system? How many years or months did it take you to make those changes?Electoral reformScotlandVoter turnoutFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMaryPitcaithly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]In Germany, did you make changes to your voting system? If so, how long did it take?Electoral reformGermanyMaryPitcaithlyFriedrichPukelsheim//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]So this means that—Electoral reformGermanyJoachimBehnkeJoachimBehnke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1530)[Translation]Mr. Massicotte, I have here two quotes from statements you have made in interviews with the media. As you know, politicians are also quoted regularly.Your opinions may have changed since then, but I would like to know a bit more about these issues.In an interview with The Prince Arthur Herald last February, you said that it would be very risky for the Prime Minister to go ahead with an electoral reform without the public opinion on his side.Last March or May, in Radio-Canada's program 24/60—and you referred to this earlier when speaking with my colleague from across the table—you also said that you did not feel that people were tired of the current system and they would like to be consulted through a referendum.Is that indeed what you said?I would like to know whether you still feel that way or whether you have changed your opinion in the meantime.Electoral reformPublic consultationPublic opinion pollsReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLouisMassicotte//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1530)[Translation]I agree, no one was talking about it in my riding this summer. On a scale from 1 to 10, how would you rank voters' interest in changing the voting method now?Electoral reformPublic consultationPublic opinion pollsLouisMassicotteLouisMassicotte//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1530)[Translation]Can you give an estimate?Electoral reformPublic consultationPublic opinion pollsLouisMassicotteLouisMassicotte//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1530)[Translation]In the same interview with The Prince Arthur Herald, you said that you have always been in favour of changing the voting method but that, at the federal level, it is not really necessary at this time.Considering all the warnings and explanations about proportional representation, which you are more familiar with than I am, it is hard for us to say as well. The Prime Minister has already taken somewhat of a position by saying he favours ranked ballots. A number of people who want to change the system, including the other parties, are more inclined toward proportional representation. Do you still maintain that, at the federal level, it is not necessary to completely change the system or that the benefits would not be as great as suggested?Electoral reformFederal electionsLouisMassicotteLouisMassicotte//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]I understand there is no urgency.I will return to that later.Electoral reformLouisMassicotteFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1610)[Translation]Ms. Northam, you say your organization encourages public participation and consults people. You said you support proportional representation, in whatever form.Do you agree that all Canadians should be consulted by referendum once the committee has decided on a voting method in order to legitimize that choice? Electoral reformPublic consultationReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisKatelynnNortham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]On your organization's website, it says that your organization pledges to actively defend referendums as a way of increasing public participation and that your organization regularly consults its supporters on various issues. Your organization's own website, which promotes your organization, says that it defends referendums as a consultation method. Now you are telling us that, in your consultations, your members said they were not necessarily in favour of referendums because they consider them to be too dangerous.Would it be dangerous to consult Canadians?Electoral reformLeadnow.caPublic consultationReferendaKatelynnNorthamKatelynnNortham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]I will give you a copy at the end, but it is under the “open democracy” section on your website. What I just said can be found there verbatim.I would go even further. You said our electoral system is unfair. That is a very strong statement, in my view. Various experts have told us that our system is perhaps not as unfair as some suggest. They are valuable sources, experts who hold doctorates who offered their considered opinions.You said that 85% of your members want to change the system to a proportional one. You cite a survey you conducted among your members.Other surveys conducted across Canada have shown that over 70% of Canadians want a referendum.You say the surveys conducted by your organization would be a valid basis for making a proposal to the committee. In that case, why wouldn't a survey of Canadians also be a credible justification for consulting the entire population to confirm, not whether they want a new voting method, but whether they support the proposed change? Why are you saying two different things?Electoral reformPublic consultationPublic opinion pollsKatelynnNorthamKatelynnNortham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1615)[Translation]Don't you find that a bit unusual? Organizations like yours or the one represented by the witness here this morning say you are in favour of public participation. That witness said that the voting method should be changed because the current method is not representative enough and that citizens should have more of a voice. Yet your organization does not support the ultimate consultation method, which could be used on such a fundamental issue. It would be a way of validating a proposal put forward by a parliamentary committee. Do you agree with that approach?Electoral reformPublic consultationReferendaKatelynnNorthamKatelynnNortham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]Thank you.Ms. Thomas, I will let you continue. I would like to pursue this further.In the whole electoral reform debate, we hear big pronouncements by various people, but it really seems that people are being led to believe that changing the electoral system would solve many of the representation and voter turnout issues. From what you are saying, it seems that political parties could take concrete steps and work together to change the culture within Parliament in order to produce results, without necessarily changing the voting method.Is that correct?Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformWomenFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMelaneeThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]Ms. Thomas ...MelaneeThomasMelaneeThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]Ms. Thomas, so if we took all the energy that this committee is devoting to the issue, all the financial resources allocated to it, and all of our prime minister's political will, and if each of the political parties used them to take concrete steps to field 169 women candidates in the next elections, we would solve the problem much more quickly.Electoral candidates and nominationsElectoral reformWomenMelaneeThomasMelaneeThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]Exactly.MelaneeThomasMelaneeThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]Thank you.MelaneeThomasMelaneeThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]Thank you, that was a very good answer.Ms. Northam, in spite of the whole process that has been put in place, I cannot say there are a lot of people right now in the various consultations that have begun. We'll see what happens during the cross-Canada tour.Would you say that the consultation process established by the government is exhaustive enough to justify changing the voting method at this time?Electoral reformPublic consultationMelaneeThomasKatelynnNortham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1635)[Translation]Does your organization support any kind of change in the voting method or is it strictly in favour of proportional representation?Electoral reformLeadnow.caProportional representationKatelynnNorthamKatelynnNortham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1635)[Translation]If the government ultimately decides to put forward a different proposal, you would have no opportunity to express your views even if you disagreed with it, since you are not in favour of a referendum to give Canadians an opportunity to express their views. Is that correct?Electoral reformLeadnow.caReferendaKatelynnNorthamKatelynnNortham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1050)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank the three witnesses with us here today.My first question is for you, Mr. Dufresne. You used some strong wording in your introduction. You said you have not found anyone who is willing to defend the status quo. I think you have found someone today.You also used the word “unanimous” in saying that everyone you consulted at various events, debates or discussions was in favour of proportional representation. Just to your left, though, is someone with a different point of view. I find it quite unusual that you claim that your organization represents a broad majority of Quebeckers who are in favour of the system you are advocating.I have a very simple question for you. My colleague to my left asked you earlier but you did not have the time to finish your answer.Once this committee has completed its work and a proposal has been put forward, do you definitely think that we should consult the entire population by way of a referendum to ensure that the proposal is the right choice and that it is necessary to change our voting system?Electoral reformReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1055)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Dufresne.I have a very simple question for you and then I would like to hear from the other two witnesses.I heard what you said, but do you think it would be advisable to consult all Canadians at the end of the process before a new voting system is implemented?Electoral reformReferendaJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1055)[Translation]Before we hear from the other witnesses, I would like to pursue this.What do you think of the various surveys that show that between 60% and 73% of the population, including over 60% in Quebec, are in favour of a referendum?You said earlier you are not an expert and that you represent a group of university professors and experts in the field. Yet more than 50% of expert witnesses support or strongly support holding a referendum before the system is reformed.You describe your organization as democratic and as seeking more public consultation and participation. Yet you are not in favour of that before implementing a new system. You say that the question should be asked again in a few years, after two or three elections. Is that correct?Electoral reformReferendaJean-SébastienDufresneFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1055)[Translation]Is that a yes or a no?Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1055)[Translation]Perfect, thank you.Mr. Loewen and Mr. Maskin, quickly ...Jean-SébastienDufresneFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Dufresne, I have another question for you.You visit New Zealand regularly. You have said that many people from various organizations in your circle are calling for proportional representation. What you forgot to say, however, is that New Zealand did in fact hold a referendum first to legitimize the process and the change in the voting system that was implemented. Do we agree on that?Electoral reformNew ZealandReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]You said earlier that we should test out a voting system and then, I assume, ask citizens for their opinion after two or three elections. Is that what you are proposing?Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]In short, your proposal to the committee is to hold a referendum after two elections to ask the people if they want to keep the new voting method or return to the current system, a first past the post system.Electoral reformReferendaJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Why should the committee study the voting method you are proposing any further? We have heard solid arguments from experts who have given us references and examples. They have stated that no voting system is perfect. Should we try out a new system? Should we not instead get the public's go-ahead before we change the voting method? Electoral reformReferendaJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]That's right, in favour of the people. In favour of the people.Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Can you give us an example of a country that changed its voting method based on a jury system? Can you name one?Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Is there any country in the world that has changed its voting method based on that kind of consultation system?Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]In short, you would like us to use that combination to change the fundamental aspect of our democracy instead of consulting the entire population. I would like to highlight the following from all the surveys that have been conducted.You say your organization wants to conduct consultations in order to gather public input and foster civic participation. More than 60% of Quebec's population and more than 70% of Canada's population are in favour of a referendum on whether or not we should change our voting system.Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]If you really want to achieve your objectives, why don't you advocate for something that has been proven elsewhere instead of your approach to something that is so fundamental?Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Why are we afraid of trusting citizens after properly informing them and after the committee has completed its work? Why not give them the chance to express their views? We are not in California where there is a steady stream of referendums. To my knowledge, there have not been a lot of referendums in Canada. Why are we afraid of that? If you are confident that the system you have just proposed is sound, why are you afraid to ask citizens that question? Electoral reformReferendaJean-SébastienDufresneJean-SébastienDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Yes, we should have the resources. Let us recommend that the committee give the government the resources to do the necessary outreach. Let the public decide after that. If one party believes in it, it will advocate for it as well.Electoral reformJean-SébastienDufresneFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1530)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to the three witnesses who are with us today.Mr. Charbonneau, I am going to let you continue your remarks, given that my question is somewhat in the same vein as you mentioned.This is the first day when I have taken part in the work of this committee. I have just come from my constituency. Funnily enough, I can tell you that, despite all the activities I have taken part in this summer, no one has talked to me about electoral reform. I am hearing all these great discussions about it. I am hearing a lot about cases where counties have moved from first-past-the-post voting to proportional voting, particularly in New Zealand. As you rightly mentioned, people in that country thought about the matter for a long time. It took them exactly 10 years to change their way of voting. When I look at the results, I have the impression that the debate we are currently having is a false one, contrary to what is suggested. We are told that, by changing the method of voting, more people will become interested in politics and therefore more people will go to the polls. We are told that the turnout rate may well go up. But in the countries where the method of voting was changed most recently, that basically did not happen. In New Zealand, the participation rate was 85% when the country made the change and went to 88% at the following election. But, at the most recent election in 2014, the participation rate was 76.9%. So, rather than having the impression that people will be more interested in politics if the method of voting changes, we have to take a closer look at the studies that have been done on people’s lack of interest. The reason why people do not show up to polling stations has more to do with a lack of time and interest.I would like to hear your comments on the process that was put in place in New Zealand before they made the change. You have mentioned it already. Could you continue with your comments?Electoral reformVoter turnoutFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-PierreCharbonneauMr.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]Yes. Exactly.Electoral reformVoter turnoutJean-PierreCharbonneauMr.Jean-PierreCharbonneauMr.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]Mr. Charbonneau—Jean-PierreCharbonneauMr.Jean-PierreCharbonneauMr.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]Mr. Charbonneau, that was not what I meant by the question.Since this debate started, it has been suggested to us that, by changing the voting method, we would better reach minorities in certain regions of Canada. We are told that more young people and more First Nations people would go to vote, and so on. So, by extension, some people feel that more people will become interested in politics and will turn out to vote.I would like to hear what the three witnesses have to say. Perhaps that could confirm what I feel about it. When I look at the statistics from different places where the voting method changed, I see that the participation rate has not increased.Do you agree with me on that?Electoral reformVoter turnoutJean-PierreCharbonneauMr.Jean-PierreCharbonneauMr.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]Perfect. So you are specifically saying that, at the moment—Electoral reformVoter turnoutJean-PierreCharbonneauMr.EdBroadbentHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]Just a minute, Mr. Broadbent. I will happily let you comment next.By the way, I am not passing judgment on your opinion about this. I want to know whether, in your opinion, greater representation is preferable to a greater number of people turning out to vote.Electoral reformVoter turnoutEdBroadbentHon.Jean-PierreCharbonneauMr.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1535)[Translation]No, not at all.Electoral reformVoter turnoutJean-PierreCharbonneauMr.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]Ms. Dawood, the legitimacy of the process has often been raised during the various discussions. As Mr. Charbonneau said, as soon as another political party associates with the government, by adding up the vote share won by the other parties, that would be more than 50% of the votes. That would give the process some legitimacy.There is a shortcut in this reasoning though. The idea is that everyone who voted for the two parties, assuming it is two parties, deliberately voted for that specific aspect among a range of proposals. I do not think that someone who marks an x on a ballot necessarily supports every one of a party's proposals. On the one hand, a referendum could be held to give everyone the chance to express their views on the committee's proposal. The other option of limiting it to a coalition of two or three parties would provide a some legitimacy. Do you think one option is better than the other?Electoral reformReferendaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisYasminDawood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1630)[Translation]No. What would you prefer: a referendum, which would provide greater legitimacy by asking everyone to express their views, or the option of adding up the votes earned by two political parties, assuming that those who voted for these parties were in favour of that aspect of their respective platforms?Electoral reformReferendaYasminDawoodYasminDawood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1635)[Translation]If the referendum was lost, would that necessarily mean that the people who had voted had made the wrong choice? If the population makes a different choice from what members recommend, would maintaining the status quo necessarily be a bad outcome?It seems to me that if voters ...Electoral reformReferendaYasminDawoodYasminDawood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1635)[Translation]Go ahead.YasminDawoodYasminDawood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1635)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Dawood.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1245)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Minister, my thanks to you and the senior officials accompanying you for taking the time to come and talk to us, despite your busy schedules.I believe that the questions that we have for you are extremely important. I have three, so I am going to try to move along quickly. The first question deals with farmers, the second is about radicalization and the third is about refugees. Those topics are not at all related to each other.You are aware that a loss of farmers and dairy producers will be coming to demonstrate on the Hill today. They have major concerns about diafiltered milk coming across our borders. There are difficulties: we do not have the resources or perhaps the technology capable of identifying that product.My question is extremely simple and it could equally well go to Ms. Lizotte-MacPherson as to you, Mr. Minister. What is the amount allocated in the budget to solve the problem of diafiltered milk made in United States that is not used to make cheese and dairy products in that country, but that is imported to Canada?Department of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessGovernment expendituresMain estimates 2016-2017Milk proteinSupplementary estimates (A) 2016-2017Trading standardsRobertOliphantDon Valley WestRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1245)[Translation]I hear what you are saying, but my question is about finding out whether there is more money in this budget and whether the details of what the government plans to do to solve this problem are described. The government has said that it wants to solve this problem. We hear about it in the House given that a lot of questions have been asked about it. This is a really urgent problem.My question is very simple: is there new money in the budget to solve this problem at the border?Department of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessGovernment expendituresMain estimates 2016-2017Milk proteinSupplementary estimates (A) 2016-2017Trading standardsRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1245)[Translation]As I would like to ask other questions, I don’t want to know the details. I just want to know whether or not money has been allocated, and if so, how much.Canada Border Services AgencyDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessGovernment expendituresMain estimates 2016-2017Milk proteinSupplementary estimates (A) 2016-2017Trading standardsRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]That is great. You have answered the question well. Thank you.My second question goes to the officials from the Security Intelligence Review Committee. We know the significance of radicalization. We are hearing a lot about it at the moment. We can see that amount of $3 million has been allocated for this issue in the overall budget and that the committee is asking for $1.9 million to deal with the increasing complexity of its workload and $2.2 million for all the relocation of offices and modernization of equipment, and so on.Could you tell us what you would like to do with those $2.2 million and could you clarify that the amount of $1.9 million is allocated for new human resources? If so, would you tell me how many people you are thinking of hiring in this area?Department of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessGovernment expendituresMain estimates 2016-2017Security Intelligence Review CommitteeSupplementary estimates (A) 2016-2017RalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]That's great.How many people are you planning on hiring with that budget increase of $1.9 million?Department of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessMain estimates 2016-2017Security Intelligence Review CommitteeStaffingSupplementary estimates (A) 2016-2017MichaelDoucetMichaelDoucet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]With $1.9 million, you are going to hire 11 people?Department of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessMain estimates 2016-2017Security Intelligence Review CommitteeStaffingSupplementary estimates (A) 2016-2017MichaelDoucetMichaelDoucet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1250)[Translation]Thank you. That answers my question very well.MichaelDoucetRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for helping us examine your report. The report states clearly that the objective is to significantly limit the use of administrative segregation, especially for young offenders under 21 years of age and those who are mentally ill.To follow up on Mr. Miller’s question, could you tell me what solutions are being proposed? Are you looking for solutions or do you already have solutions that could be implemented to limit administrative segregation?I would like to hear what you both have to say about that.Annual report of the Correctional Investigator for 2014-2015Office of the Correctional Investigator of CanadaSolitary confinementRobertOliphantDon Valley WestHowardSapers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1205)[Translation]I will have to interrupt you. We can talk about it later.I have a question that has not been answered and it has to do with alternatives.I understand that a piece of legislation is in place and that we can amend it, but I would like to have a clear picture of the current options to replace administrative segregation in prisons.Annual report of the Correctional Investigator for 2014-2015Office of the Correctional Investigator of CanadaSolitary confinementHowardSapersMarie-FranceKingsley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1205)[Translation]If the act is amended, could you then apply those measures?What is currently preventing you from providing alternatives to segregating the inmates?Annual report of the Correctional Investigator for 2014-2015Office of the Correctional Investigator of CanadaMarie-FranceKingsleyMarie-FranceKingsley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]Why are the decision-makers not considering those other options?The act has been around since 1992, but people are not choosing other options. Is it because of the organizational culture, lack of training, lack of resources or financial reasons?You seem to have some solutions.Annual report of the Correctional Investigator for 2014-2015Office of the Correctional Investigator of CanadaMarie-FranceKingsleyMarie-FranceKingsley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1210)[Translation]Am I to understand…I'm sorry, but my time is already up.Marie-FranceKingsleyRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1245)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses for being here with us. We also apologize for the disruption this morning.Can you explain to me what happens from the moment when an employee is experiencing stress and wishes to receive assistance? At this time, what means are in place in each of your organizations to deal with this? What procedure is followed? Is there some sort of support and do the employees have access to tools afterwards? Do the organizations have the necessary openness to help them?Emergency response and emergency respondersHealth services accessibilityMedical rehabilitationMental healthPost-traumatic stress syndromePublic safety officers and peace officersPublic Service and public servantsErinO'TooleHon.DurhamStanleyStapleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1250)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to thank the witnesses for being here with us.Last week, one of the witnesses told us that, after people are diagnosed with a post-traumatic stress disorder and once they start treatment, a third of patients respond positively, another third have a mixed response, and another third responds completely negatively.Awareness is an aspect that is of considerable concern to me, particularly when I see these results and I think about the time the research will take before we can progress on this. I would like all of you to tell me, not what your organization is planning to do in the next few months, days, or weeks, but what it is doing right now. What are you doing about awareness and education on this subject? Ultimately, what are you doing to raise people's awareness before they join your organization?I would like to hear from the representative of each of the organizations.Emergency response and emergency respondersInformation collectionMental healthParamedicsPost-traumatic stress syndromePublic safety officers and peace officersRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceWork-based trainingRobertOliphantDon Valley WestDanielDubeau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1155)[Translation]Good morning. Thank you for your presentation.My comments will follow on the question my colleague Mr. O'Toole asked. This is something that is of great personal interest.Dr. Merali, you spoke about treatment after a PTSD diagnosis. You said that a third of people who go into treatment are successfully treated, that a third has limited success and that the remaining third has no success at all.You also said that technology and research made it possible to better predict who would respond the best to a treatment, and it's important to note that this varies from person to person.Are there pre-existing conditions, such as trauma, that exacerbate this disorder in certain individuals? It would be good if the research or the discoveries that have been made could be used to determine basically which individuals have such conditions. If that was the case, perhaps we could raise awareness about this.Could you speak more about that?My question is also for Dr. Aiken.Emergency response and emergency respondersMedical researchMedical techniques and proceduresMental healthPost-traumatic stress syndromePublic safety officers and peace officersWorkplace health and safetyRobertOliphantDon Valley WestAliceAiken//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Dr. Merali, I fully understand the distinction that could be made, especially with regard to these occupations. As a former mayor, I've worked with firefighters and police officers. It's an environment where they are all strong and where "weaknesses" aren't accepted.You spoke about scanners and brain imaging. Do you think that investing in research would ultimately make it possible to detect this? We would see later what we would do, but at least we would have the indicators.Emergency response and emergency respondersMedical researchMental healthNeuroimagingPost-traumatic stress syndromePublic safety officers and peace officersWorkplace health and safetyAliceAikenZulMerali//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]This is very interesting. We need to make sure these people are treated.You just gave the example of cholesterol, cancer and diabetes. With those diseases, we know that if we eat better and less, if we take care of our health and so on, our chances are better. There is prevention and public awareness.My concern has to do with that. I know we shouldn't categorize people, but we could do sort of what they do in sports, where they work on an athlete's resilience. If human resources know the stress risks or the situations that may lead to professional burn-out, training can be given that includes scenarios and role playing, among other things. Ultimately, it would make it possible to determine who around us would be likely to be in a stressful situation.Efforts shouldn't focus solely on treatment, especially when the results aren't always there. We need to work at the source, too.I don't have any other questions.Thank you.Emergency response and emergency respondersMental healthPost-traumatic stress syndromePublic safety officers and peace officersWorkplace health and safetyAliceAikenRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1130)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today to share their experience in this area. We often talk about what happens after the event and the treatment. You also mentioned it. However, I would like to hear you talk about what happens before. When it comes to the culture of organizations, first responders, our soldiers, the army and the RCMP, is everything being done to prepare for the potential risks?I will make a very simple analogy with an athlete participating in a competition. They will be psychologically and physically prepared for unfortunate situations that could happen during a competition. Is anything being done before the problem even occurs? Is awareness being raised among employees and stakeholders of all sectors? Can you tell us about any relevant studies or research?Emergency response and emergency respondersMedical researchMental healthPost-traumatic stress syndromePublic safety officers and peace officersWorkplace health and safetyRobertOliphantDon Valley WestR. NicholasCarleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1135)[Translation]If I may, I would like to say something about this. I will then let you continue. If I have understood correctly, there are no studies or research on the topic. There isn't really any basic training to prepare those employees, soldiers and first responders for the potential risks. Do you know whether—before research is even conducted—some work is done at the outset with those people during their basic training and in various educational institutions, including universities and vocational schools?Emergency response and emergency respondersMental healthPost-traumatic stress syndromePublic safety officers and peace officersWorkplace health and safetyMikeDadsonR. NicholasCarleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today and helping us in our work.Before I was a member of Parliament and a mayor, I was a school principal and teacher. On a number of occasions, I saw people who were suffering from depression, burnout, or anxiety. I saw how they felt ashamed and weak. They were afraid of being judged by their peers, and they didn't understand what was happening to them.We are talking about training, awareness, and research tools, but there is a need for cultural change within organizations, in the institutional environment. Some tools have been put in place, and it has been a difficult process. From what I understand, the Canadian Police Association is just getting started. You haven't started talking about this at the international level to find out what other countries are doing.We see police officers, firefighters, and members of the military as strong people who are immune to weakness. I imagine that there must be work to do, even when it comes to the corporate culture.Have you taken your research further and involved the managers of these sectors and the police stations to see what could be done?My question is for all three witnesses.Emergency response and emergency respondersMental healthPolice officersPost-traumatic stress syndromePrejudicePublic safety officers and peace officersRobertOliphantDon Valley WestLouiseBradley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1300)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Upshall.I would like to hear from the president of the Canadian Police Association, Mr. Stamatakis.Of course, I hear the stories about doctors, but within the organization, if the culture prevents these people from speaking out, they may not even get to the point where they are seen by a professional.I imagine that in police forces, the fact that this is being studied must be a very sensitive subject.Emergency response and emergency respondersMental healthPolice officersPost-traumatic stress syndromePrejudicePublic safety officers and peace officersWorkplace health and safetyPhilipUpshallRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1220)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be sharing my time with Mr. Miller. I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today.I have two quick questions, but first, I'd like to thank you for the answer you gave my colleague opposite. I have been asked a lot about indigenous people in prison and their incarceration rate as compared to the general population. I feel that people too often take a narrow view. As you said so well, action needs to be taken at the grassroots level.Before I was a politician and mayor, I was a teacher and school principal. Action needs to be taken at the grassroots level in communities to prevent these people from winding up in the situation they are in now. There are not two classes of citizens. When someone does something, there is a consequence, and I believe it has to apply. I applaud you for your answer.I want to come back to my initial question, which has to do with public confidence in our prison system.People have a lot of questions about inmates who get parole. Right now, what percentage of inmates reach the end of their sentence without parole? Can you answer that question?Conditional releaseRobertOliphantDon Valley WestDonHead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]Thank you.DonHeadHarveyCenaiko//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1225)[Translation]Thank you.I will give the floor to my colleague, Larry Miller.HarveyCenaikoLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes (Richmond—Arthabaska, CPC): (1155)[Translation]Good morning.I would like to join my colleagues in thanking you for being with us today.I have three questions.I'm going to pick up on what my colleague, Mr. Miller, was saying about Syrian refugees coming to Canada. Mr. Oldham pointed out that, if everything goes smoothly, we should hit the target of 25,000 refugees by month's end. We are hearing that the government wants to increase that target to 50,000 by the end of the year, if I'm not mistaken.You said that a number of screening measures were being carried out on the ground. The process is the same for any refugee wanting to come to Canada.My question is very straightforward. It's a fact that Syria has more terrorist cells than anywhere else in the world. What percentage of refugee applicants were denied during the screening process because they were found to pose a potential risk? Is that a figure you could kindly provide us with? Briefing sessionsDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessRefugee claims processingRobertOliphantDon Valley WestGinaWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Very well.That means that the people working for you who carried out the screening—Briefing sessionsDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessRefugee claims processingGinaWilsonGinaWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1155)[Translation]Your department is responsible for public safety. And I believe that many Canadians are worried about terrorism, in light of all the occurrences of terrorism happening around the world. It would be helpful to have that percentage, but we'll ask the other witnesses questions.My second question pertains to the counter-radicalization office. I'm very glad to learn that best practices in use throughout the entire country are being taken into account. I'm also very glad to see that the city of Montreal is leading the way with such an initiative. I would have preferred, however, for Canada to take that lead.Much has been said about the desire to communicate with stakeholders such as police forces, municipalities and provinces. But there has been no mention of schools. This is an issue that affects young people. I'm wondering whether that was taken into consideration. I used to be a school principal. I have also been a mayor and a teacher. I think young people are the most susceptible to radicalization.My colleague brought up human trafficking, which also ties into this.What measures do you intend to take to have an impact in all those settings? There are countless elementary and secondary schools, not to mention colleges and universities.Briefing sessionsDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessExtremismInformation disseminationStudentsCraigOldhamMonikBeauregard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Actually, my question is more specific. With respect to the counter-radicalization office, I know that the RCMP, the Quebec provincial police, and other police forces engage in outreach and education. I've seen it for myself, in fact. They do an excellent job. What I'm interested in, however, are really the efforts made to detect these kinds of cases, from a public safety standpoint.Are there policies you would like to put in place, as you are looking to do with the municipalities and as Montreal has tried to do? Do you plan to establish a direct line of communication with school principals?Briefing sessionsDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessExtremismStudentsMonikBeauregardRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88600AlainRayesAlain-RayesRichmond—ArthabaskaConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RayesAlain_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alain Rayes: (1200)[Translation]Yes.Briefing sessionsDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessMonikBeauregardMonikBeauregardINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE