//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Joe Preston (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC)): (1310)[English] We are back in business, folks. We have the motion by Mr. Lukiwski.Mr. Cullen, you have the floor. Did you—Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP): (1310)[English]Yes. I appreciate Mr. Lukiwski's words earlier. I think Mr. Scott has some specific things to say to this.Here's our concern specifically with what we've seen. I don't believe we have a date yet from the Prime Minister as to when the House will reconvene. The concern we have, if committee members remember the motion.... I'm not sure if we can make copies available from.... It was in our request for the meeting, if committee members want to refer to it. The motion that we very specifically put forward in the spring talked explicitly about a number of things. One was potentially replacing the Board of Internal Economy, which is a complex matter. It's not a matter of a simple signature on a piece of paper. It also talked about conducting a brief study to bring us to that type of action and allow us the ability to have transparent and independent oversight of members of Parliament's spending.The concern we have with both prorogation and how this meeting has come together is with any loss of momentum. One of the things we're asking of the government, and which Mr. Scott will speak to, is the reintroduction, word for word, of what we all agreed to unanimously just a few months ago. I think that's important—certainly from our perspective. As Mr. Lukiwski will remember well, we talked about this at great length before the end of last session, and got the agreement of all members of Parliament to change the way we do things for the better and that it go to this committee to do that work, with a deadline.If prorogation lasts a number of weeks, or longer, that's the clock running on that deadline that we set for ourselves. That means the study will be less well done. There's a fear that the work will be of lower quality and that we might not get to the result that Canadians expect of us, which is to improve things. That's the essence of bringing the committee back. Sunday afternoon is an interesting choice of time, but here we are. We understand that things are what they are.I think we're going to potentially move, and maybe I'll pass to Mr. Scott here, an amendment to this to allow it greater specificity to reduce the concerns we have about what Mr. Lukiwski has presented here today.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1310)[English]Mr. Scott would like to be on the speaking list. We'll get him on there.Mr. Lamoureux, you're next.NathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): (1310)[English]Thank you.I actually appreciate the opportunity to come here today, as I suspect that a great deal of discussion has taken place in all of our ridings across the country, from coast to coast to coast, since Canadians are, in fact, quite concerned about what is taking place and what has been taking place in Ottawa over the last number of months. In the past we attempted to deal with this, even prior to the House adjourning, or taking a recess, back in June. As members would know, it was the leader of the Liberal Party who brought forward four motions of substance. We attempted to get those passed. They are now referred to in the letter that Mr. Cullen has brought forward. I think it is important to note just how those motions, had they been passed, would have resolved a lot of concerns that many Canadians have today.Unfortunately—and the record will show this—it was the New Democrats who actually prevented the motions from passing in the first place. So, on the one hand, we're glad to be here: we want to see changes. We want more transparency. We want those things, because we know that Canadians want them and are demanding them. We have seen strong leadership within our own party with regard to coming up with ideas on how we will be able to do just that.I really believe that one of the first things we as a committee should do on this agenda—given the fact that back in June there appeared to be just a minority of New Democrats who were uncomfortable with the motions proposed by the Liberal Party—is to review those motions put forward by Mr. Trudeau and get the unanimous support of the committee. I think that would be a reasonable thing to ask. We've had the opportunity to review the motions. Everyone has had a copy of them, Mr. Chair. People are familiar with them. We would be doing a great service to Canadians if people would agree to let those motions pass.Whether it passes unanimously today or not—and I will ask for that, Mr. Chair—as much as that would be great to see, I can tell you that we as a caucus are prepared to do it. We are committed, because we recognize what Canadians want us to do, and we're prepared to demonstrate that through leadership and to implement certain aspects of it ourselves. The question is to what degree other members are as well. I suspect that all members have had the opportunity to canvass their constituents and to find out that there should be support.Mr. Chair, I'm not entirely sure of the proper procedure, but I am going to ask if you could canvass to see whether, in fact, there would be unanimous support for the four motions that were brought forward by Mr. Trudeau back on June 10.I can quickly read them, Mr. Chair. Mr. Trudeau moved:that the Board of Internal Economy begin posting the travel and hospitality expenses—Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Reid, on a point of order.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1827ScottReidScott-ReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ReidScott_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, CPC): (1315)[English]Just on relevance, I appreciate that Mr. Lamoureux would be fully within his rights to introduce a motion or, indeed, several motions. I don't think there's a notice requirement under our committee's rules, but we are actually in the midst of discussing not merely another motion—and everything discussed must be germane to that motion—but an amendment to that motion. I would think that these remarks would be more appropriate when we've dealt essentially with this.Let's deal with Mr. Cullen's amendment to Mr. Lukiwski's motion first.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English]Thank you, Mr. Reid. I was about to get there as Mr. Lamoureux was rounding the corner into new motions.We are still on Mr. Lukiwski's notice of motion of today. Unless you are trying to move these as amendments to that, I don't see a way forward until after that discussion is complete. I'd be happy to come back to it at that time.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux: (1315)[English]With your assistance then, Mr. Chair, I would be interested in moving that as an amendment to the motion that Mr. Lukiwski has brought forward, if I can do that.JoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English]Let's see how we get there.We'll allow a little latitude today. Mr. Lukiwski, go ahead on a point of order.KevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, CPC): (1315)[English]I'm not sure if this is a point of order or a point of clarification, but if you take a look at the motion we passed on June 18, paragraph (vi) says:examine the subject-matter of the motions, standing in the name of the Member for Papineau, placed on the Order Paper on June 10, 2013.I think, Kevin, you are trying to reintroduce the same motions that we have agreed to study anyway. I don't see the necessity of that. Part of the House order, and part of the motion that was unanimously passed, was to study the motions that your leader brought forward. We have agreed to do that.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux: (1315)[English]I think a big part of it, Tom, is recognizing—which I wasn't too sure of in terms of the most appropriate way of bringing it forward in the form of an amendment—that what we're looking for is just getting the recognition from all three political parties that these suggestions or motions that were brought forward back on June 10 are very tangible and whether in fact they're supported by all political parties. Now, it might not necessarily be appropriate as an amendment. That's why I was looking to see if we could get the unanimous support of the committee to at least acknowledge their existence and in fact support them, because what we're talking about is not studying them per se, but rather adopting them.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English]Well, I think this committee would like to usually move in that step, where we'll study before we come to the conclusion as to what we'll put in our final report.I have Mr. Scott, Mr. Cullen, and then Mr. Lukiwski, but I'm trying not to get out of sync here as to where we are.Mr. Lamoureux, as Mr. Lukiwski has pointed out, the subject matter you're talking about is already in the motion that founded the reason for our meeting. Belt and suspenders I understand, but I just don't understand why we need to go that deep at this moment, further—Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1320)[English]It's redundant.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English] If you'll allow me, let's leave it. If at the end you don't believe that the subject matter you're looking for is going to be covered, I might even give you some leeway to bring it back, but at this moment I think we're already discussing the topic that you're trying to put on the floor, either as an amendment to Mr. Lukiwski's motion or as another motion.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux: (1320)[English]Okay. On that particular point, then, Mr. Chair, I appreciate your comments and I'll look forward to maybe a more appropriate time, when we could actually have some dialogue on the four motions that were brought forward by Mr. Trudeau.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]Well, we're instructed by the motion itself to have that dialogue before December 2, so I'm guessing that we will have it.KevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux: (1320)[English]Yes. I was hopeful that maybe we'd be able to draw some conclusions if possible, at least before the end of the day, so that we would have something tangible prior to the end of the meeting. I will hold off on providing more comments in regard to those particular motions, but suffice it to say that we're glad to be here today. We're anxious to see some movement in this area. We'll have to wait and see where it goes.Thank you.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]Mr. Lukiwski, we were still at your motion. KevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1320)[English]Yes, and I guess my only comment..... I know that Craig is coming next, so I—JoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]I have him on my list. So we'll let him do it at the end or...?TomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1320)[English]Yes. All I was going to say in response to Kevin is that with all due respect, Kevin, I just think what you're attempting to do here is somewhat redundant, because it's in the motion that we passed unanimously to study all of the elements of your leader's motions of June 10. So I don't think we need an amendment or a clarification. It's in the House order that was discussed.Eventually...and obviously I don't want to cut off any further discussion of my motion, but I would just reiterate that the commitment of our government is to honour the motion that was approved unanimously on June 18, and that is to conduct a full and thorough review of all issues dealing with transparency and accountability of members of Parliament. It's I think fairly clearly presented in the motion that was adopted where we're going to go with this. We're going to talk about things, about the Board of Internal Economy. We're going to talk to the Auditor General and other financial people. We're probably going to examine other jurisdictions. But the sole purpose of and the spirit behind this motion was to try to increase transparency and accountability. That's why my motion comes forward: just to reaffirm the fact that as a government we are absolutely committed to doing that.With respect to one further comment that Nathan made as to honouring the deadline of December 2, as a committee—and everyone knows that we're the masters of our own fate—we can meet as often and as frequently as we want. We can have extended hours. We can meet evenings, on weekends, whatever. Our point is that we believe the December 2 deadline can and will be met, and we're fully committed to participating in a thorough review.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]Mr. Lukiwski, thank you for that recap, but I'm wondering if you wanted to read your motion into the record, because it was done while we were in camera.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1320)[English]Sure. Everyone has notice of it and this is public, but I will read it just for the record:That, the Committee hold meetings in the fall of 2013 pursuant to the House order of Tuesday, June 18, 2013, regarding the transparency and accountability of the House of Commons, and that the Committee show respect for the will of the House by allowing one Member who is not a member of a recognized party to participate in these hearings as a temporary, non-voting member of the Committee.I know that other people are on the speaking list, but I would like to deal with the substance of this, and I would call the question at the first opportunity so we can vote on my motion.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentMotionsJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]Super—as soon as we possibly can. But unless the people who are on the speaking list accept coming off it and voting, I don't see that....Mr. Scott.TomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreCraigScottToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/75006CraigScottCraig-ScottToronto—DanforthNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ScottCraig_NPD.jpgInterventionMr. Craig Scott (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): (1320)[English]Great, thank you, Mr. Chair.I think what I have to offer will actually assist in one respect: it will clarify to an extent a small concern about the extent to which we are committing in advance to move forward in the fall on the exact same motion adopted in the House on June 18. I think that's absolutely in the spirit of everything I've heard from Tom. I want to suggest an amendment that makes it even clearer. In suggesting this amendment I think I'm probably helping on the point by Mr. Lamoureux as well, because my amendment makes it exceptionally clear that in the motion of June 18, the provision “examine the subject-matter of the motions, standing in the name of the Member for Papineau, placed on the Order Paper on June 10, 2013” will be part of the study. This will be made even clearer by my amendment.What I'd like to do now is just to read the amendment. Tom's motion would stand exactly as is, and then I would suggest simply adding these words:and that the Committee further show respect for the will of the House by instructing the Chair of the Committee to write to the Government House Leader to request that he, on the first day of the return of the House, seek unanimous consent from the House to bring back the House order of June 18 2013, in the exact form adopted on that day.I think this is a good idea procedurally, because we are going to have prorogation—it's almost certain—between now and when we'll be able to really study this. In that case I think it's really a good idea to have the exact same motion back before this committee, and the mechanism I'm suggesting here would accomplish that. At the same time, it absolutely makes clear something that is possibly just a little bit too general in the first three lines of Mr. Lukiwski's motion. The first three lines talk about holding meetings pursuant to the House order regarding transparency and accountability, but then it says, “and that the Committee show respect for the will of the House”, and it only specifies paragraph (h). The idea of showing respect for the will of the House with respect to including a non-recognized party member is really important, but it's isolating one element of the motion, whereas the first three lines are quite general. All I am doing, I think, is crossing the t’s and dotting the i's with what we've exactly heard already from Tom, that the government is in support of the motion as adopted. I would like to add the extra procedural boost by asking you, the chair, to write to the House leader to ask him to seek unanimous consent when we return.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentMotionsJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Mr. Reid.CraigScottToronto—DanforthScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1827ScottReidScott-ReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ReidScott_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Reid: (1325)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, if we're going to turn, as I think we would have to do at this point, to debating a proposed amendment to the motion, I just want to confirm that Mr. Cullen never actually was going to introduce the motion, and that effectively this is the motion. Is that correct? JoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1325)[English]Yes.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1827ScottReidScott-ReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ReidScott_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Reid: (1325)[English]Okay. That's the first thing.Secondly, you talked about the first three lines, but it's actually added to the end of the motion. Is that correct, that the additional words are at the end?NathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyCraigScottToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/75006CraigScottCraig-ScottToronto—DanforthNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ScottCraig_NPD.jpgInterventionMr. Craig Scott: (1325)[English]The additional words are in italics, added to the end of the motion. When I talk about the first three lines—ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1827ScottReidScott-ReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ReidScott_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Reid: (1325)[English]I just had this handed out to me. I'm sorry.CraigScottToronto—DanforthCraigScottToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/75006CraigScottCraig-ScottToronto—DanforthNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ScottCraig_NPD.jpgInterventionMr. Craig Scott: (1325)[English]The first three lines reference was to how the first three lines are just a tiny bit too general.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1827ScottReidScott-ReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ReidScott_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Reid: (1325)[English]Okay. Now I understand. Thank you. That explains everything.The Chair: Are you fine on that now?Mr. Scott Reid: I am. Thank you.CraigScottToronto—DanforthJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]I have Mr. Cullen next, and then Mr. Lukiwski.We are now speaking to the amendment.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1325)[English]That's right.This reiterates in black and white what Mr. Lukiwski just confirmed to the committee, the assurance that the government has maintained the political will over the summertime to continue the work that we unanimously agreed to in the spring. It provides specificity and assurance to Canadians that this work will continue. I take the assurances from Tom just with regard to the committee's work. As soon as we get through this motion—I think we're almost there—I'd like to get into some of that discussion today so that the work can begin in advance on witness lists and whom we would call, with some suggestions made already, and the pace of work. As I've suggested already, while the goal is quite clear, getting there will be somewhat subtle and complex in changing the very, very old institution of Canada's Parliament, specifically the Board of Internal Economy, how to bring the Auditor General in properly, and those kinds of things.This motion I think it just confirms the assurances that Mr. Lukiwski talked about. I think it should certainly confirm and give validation that the Liberals seem to be seeking. It allows the committee to know exactly what the work is about, and puts it in your hands, Mr. Chair, so that on day one the government House leader can introduce this. Of course, we will agree and we'll move forward, and the committee will have its marching orders to complete its work on that specified date.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentMotionsJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Mr. Lukiwski.NathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1325)[English]I just don't have a problem with this. As I said verbally, our commitment is to do it. I've said so in public now, and so if this committee wants to instruct you, as chair, to write a letter requesting that we reaffirm the motion we have already passed, we don't have a problem with that. We are fully committed to having the study.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Super.TomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1325)[English]Can I ask a procedural question?JoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Sure, but be very brief.NathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1330)[English]Just procedurally, I want to confirm technically that a prorogation of the House, which we have not had yet, would nullify the motion we passed in the House in the spring. Is that correct? I wonder if we can just—Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]That would be correct.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1330)[English] Yes, I think that's correct. I ask because people might be wondering why we have all of these assurances. That's because it doesn't exist. The moment the Prime Minister seeks prorogation from the Governor General, the motion we passed in the House in the spring won't exist, so this is a very public confirmation that even though technically that's procedurally true, when we come back we'll have exactly the same wording, in advance, already confirmed by this committee and others. I just wanted to assure my colleagues and others of that.Board of Internal EconomyGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]All right, I have no one else on the speaking list, so shall we call the vote on the amendment?Some hon. members: Yes.(Amendment agreed to)(Motion as amended agreed to)The Chair: Fantastic. That accomplishes a good combination of motions today. Thank you very much. That's great.Mr. Cullen.Board of Internal EconomyDecisions in committeeGovernment accountabilityGovernment expendituresInformation disseminationMembers of ParliamentMotionsNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1330)[English]As I said in my very last comments, I wonder if the committee could seek to set a date by which we must submit our proposed witnesses. The reason I'm doing this, Chair, is that, as you know, for the people working on behalf of this committee, that can take a number of weeks with juggling schedules and what not. The uncertainty of when Parliament actually will resume is a challenge, so the second consideration I'd like us to interpose, unless the Prime Minister confirms quite soon when Parliament is meant to come back, is that we as a committee consider setting dates today regardless, because we do have the power outside of prorogation to set committee dates.I'm not creating suspicions as much as addressing the reality that if the Prime Minister chooses the beginning of November as the best time for Parliament to reconvene, suddenly we're looking at a month with some witnesses with incredibly busy schedules. My concern is that we're going to run out of time and not do our proper work. So on those two fronts, would the committee consider setting a date today by which we should all submit our witnesses—and I suggest that date come quite soon, within a week or two—and begin to consider some potential dates for meetings, regardless of whether or not Parliament has resumed?Those are the two questions I put to committee members.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Your chair was going to suggest the first part of that today anyway, that we get started with collecting witness names. I'm not going to put a finite end to it, Mr. Cullen, because you've seen how this committee can work. One witness can give us an idea that leads to our talking to another. So rather than putting a hard lock on a witness list, let's start it today. If you have any, by all means let's start talking to the clerk and getting the witnesses forward. Of course, some are mentioned in the House motion: the Clerk, the Auditor General, and the chief of accounting. We'll certainly have to talk with them anyway.I recognize that through the summer, knowing this motion was there, the analysts started some research on this project. We didn't leave it and assume we'd just wait until we got back. We've already started a lot of the research. I'm not prepared to talk about it yet, because it's not collected yet, but it has been happening. That being said, Mr. Cullen, you also know that this committee is able to move large boulders uphill when it has to, and so I'm not worried about that finish date. If we have to, we'll get it done. We showed last year, given the redistribution, how we're able to finish on time and on schedule.Committee businessNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1330)[English]Mr. Chair, I also wouldn't mind testing the room as to the level of interest among committee members. I understand about setting the date and that we oftentimes have modified witness lists as we go along. I think there is something about a deadline though that helps everybody to focus their minds a bit. If teachers say, “Have your homework in at some point”, they don't tend to be all that satisfied.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]That reminds me of the work this chair has had to do in the past—NathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1330)[English] I'm sure it does remind the chair—if the dog ate the homework. That's why I wouldn't mind just testing my colleagues in terms of those two things.JoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]I'm fine with having a small amount of discussion on this, but I'm caught by the procedures that this committee tends to follow on agenda and planning for future meetings, which take place in camera and not in public. So I ask the committee to take that into account as we have this discussion also, please.I'm looking for other members to comment on what Mr. Cullen has said, or to agree to it.Mr. Lamoureux.Committee businessNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux: (1330)[English]I note that December 2 is the final date—Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]That's correct.Committee businessKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux: (1335)[English]—that's being suggested. Nothing prevents us from actually reporting a little earlier than December 2, if this gets done. I don't see anything wrong with our trying to organize meetings for this September going into October. I don't think we have to wait until we're back in session, necessarily. We are going to get prorogued by the looks of it. I would be open to setting some actual dates if we could, Mr. Chair. I think there would be a great benefit for us in terms of a planning perspective and from a witness perspective. We're here to set an agenda. I'm prepared to open up the calendar and see if we can set some dates.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]Thank you, Mr. Lamoureux.I'll give a bit more of a comment at the end, but I'm not sure I'm quite able to set an agenda until I know what the workload looks like. That tends to be how this committee works.Mr. Lukiwski.Committee businessKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1335)[English]You've said what I was going to say. It's pretty difficult, if not outright impossible, to set an agenda until we find out how many witnesses people are suggesting we have. That's the way this committee has always worked. That's how every committee works. You get the witness list, and then the chair, with the support of the analysts and the clerk, tries to get a work schedule based on how many witnesses we're going to have to hear from. I think that's the proper way to proceed here.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]Mr. Lamoureux.TomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30552KevinLamoureuxKevin-LamoureuxWinnipeg NorthLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamoureuxKevin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Kevin Lamoureux: (1335)[English]I've only served on one committee, the immigration and citizenship committee. I know that when we set our agenda, Mr. Chair, what would often happen—not often, but always—was that there were government witnesses, official opposition witnesses, and third party witnesses, and it was determined in terms of what sort of numbers we were looking at. This is the appropriate time and place for us to be able to talk about those numbers. That then allows you to get a sense of what sort of time is going to be required to do the review. I don't believe that we have to wait indefinitely for you as the chair or for the government to come back and say that we're going to have x number of witnesses. I think now is the most appropriate time to try to resolve that if we can. How many government witnesses do you yourself expect to have, Tom?Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1335)[English]I don't know until we.... I can't answer that, Kevin, because we haven't sat down to try to determine exactly where we want to go with this. Similarly, every time we've tried to set an agenda at this committee, we've handled ourselves in the same fashion. We have a week or whatever it is to come up with witness lists. You will be speaking with your staff, I'm sure, and with other members of your caucus, as will the NDP, as will we. We'll submit the lists, and only at that time will the chair and the clerk then be able to say okay, we have 20, 30, or 40 witnesses. Then they set a work-plan and an agenda based on that.I think it's pretty presumptuous and very, very unwieldy to try to force a particular agenda without having seen what we're all suggesting in terms of the witnesses. That's all I'm saying. Plus, the fact is that we've already passed an amendment saying that we're going to reaffirm the motion as soon as Parliament resumes. As was mentioned—and I think both Craig and Nathan said it—with prorogation, the initial motion as unanimously agreed to on June 18 basically goes away, so we're going to reaffirm.... We're going to write a letter to the House leader to bring it back. Let's just do things in an orderly fashion. That's all I'm trying to suggest. We want to get it done. We've all agreed upon that. We know that we want to have certain witnesses appear before the committee. Let's find out who they are and go from there.Committee businessKevinLamoureuxWinnipeg NorthJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]Mr. Scott.TomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreCraigScottToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/75006CraigScottCraig-ScottToronto—DanforthNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ScottCraig_NPD.jpgInterventionMr. Craig Scott: (1335)[English]If I could, I'll cede this to Mr. Cullen.JoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]Mr. Cullen.CraigScottToronto—DanforthNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1335)[English]In that vein and on the orderly fashion, because I agree this thing could get unwieldy if you look at all seven proposals outlined here, what I would suggest to the committee is something specific, Chair, to allow this to be orderly and to allow us also to hit the ground running in whichever fashion, whether it's coming back early, as I've suggested, or not “early”, but starting work when we're meant to, if we follow the parliamentary calendar, or early if the Prime Minister prorogues.That is, I suggest that by this coming Friday we reconvene with a preliminary witness list, because five working days should give people enough time—if they haven't already started. We've started. In terms of what witnesses we're looking to have, some of them are obvious, but some other ones would cover that off. Secondly, I suggest that we have a preliminary set of themes to allow the analysts and the clerk to start to build that working schedule you need, so that when Parliament does get back, either at our own behest as a committee or as a normal function—as Parliament is sitting when the Prime Minister calls it—we have a work plan, we have witnesses set up, and certainly we have the first tranche of themes to be dealt with. By Friday, people should have a good sense of it.We've been sitting with this issue for months—for some years—so it's not as if it's new. Maybe it is new to some parties, this idea of accountability and transparency, but as for the notion of who it is that we need to call and what expertise we need, I think it's pretty obvious.That's what I've suggested. I've put that forward. I don't know if you need it in a formal motion, Mr. Chair, but that's my suggestion as an outline: that we return and meet with a set of preliminary witnesses and a set of themes that probably follow along the lines of the seven topics outlined here. There may be fewer or there may be more, but we can leave that to committee members to help decide. The committee can then send our analysts and clerks away and they would be able to build that kind of agenda so that we hit the ground in an orderly fashion, but also hit the ground running.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English] I'll let you know that in the past and today it's always been your chair's thought to try to pre-think what you might ask and to move forward. We've been doing that. As I said, before we left for the summer we discussed what was in the motion and talked about what could be pre-done or at least looked at. I agree with you 100% on how great the staff is at anticipating our needs and moving forward, but I think without the steering committee actually doing this in the normal way we do it, we will try to do the schedule by whole committee and witness list selection by whole committee. I've seen how that's turned out, and you've been there.Committee businessNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1340)[English]You're saying the agenda should be set by a subcommittee?Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Right.Committee businessNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1340)[English]I totally agree. So amend my thinking, then, to a deadline with the subcommittee setting it up.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]At some point, once we have gathered some substantial part of witness lists, we'll move forward with a study of the plan, knowing what days we have going forward to look at it. I'm suggesting that we move in our normal fashion. That, I think, would work best.Committee businessNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1340)[English]Specifically then, because I talked about this Friday coming to give committee members and staff five days to gather those kinds of witnesses, my suggestion is that the subcommittee gather on Friday, pull those pieces together, start making those decisions, and outline the plan.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]I'm going to disagree with you, Mr. Cullen. I'm not going to speak from the chair if there are hands up. Mr. Lukiwski, go ahead.Committee businessNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyTomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Lukiwski: (1340)[English]I'm just going to ask for some advice from the clerk regarding prorogation. Parliament originally was scheduled to resume September 16, so I assume this coming week the Prime Minister will make some announcement on that. Once that occurs, what is the status of those committees? I'd like some advice from the clerk.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Go ahead.TomLukiwskiRegina—Lumsden—Lake CentreMarie-FranceRenaudMarie-FranceRenaudMarie-France-RenaudInterventionThe Clerk of the Committee (Mrs. Marie-France Renaud): (1340)[English]Once the House has prorogued, PROC still has members, but we don't have a chair; we don't have any studies; we don't have anything, so we cannot meet. Even if we send out a notice of meeting, if there's a prorogation before Friday, it doesn't happen. So it's up to you, until we come back and elect a new chair—or the same chair.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Mr. Scott, I think I saw your hand.Marie-FranceRenaudCraigScottToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/75006CraigScottCraig-ScottToronto—DanforthNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ScottCraig_NPD.jpgInterventionMr. Craig Scott: (1340)[English]Just so everybody knows, that will mean that with prorogation, this is the one committee that continues a certain ghostly existence. We'll have members, but no body, if that's correct. So we can't actually meet if there's prorogation, and that would include the subcommittee. I understand that.I guess I would suggest then, depending on whether or not we want to, in some kind of a provisional way, talk about the subcommittee meeting on Friday, that it could still stay open. I'll leave that discussion to go on. I just assume this would happen, but maybe we could make sure it would happen. Prorogation sort of gets rid of us, but it doesn't get rid of the staff, so as long as it's very clear that the staff can continue to do all the work they would normally do, then at least we know that time when we're not in Parliament is not being wasted. As long as that can be clear, I think that's a minimum.The second point, while I have the floor, is just to make one comment on the agenda list. Point number (g)(iii) says, “study the practices of provincial and territorial legislatures, as well as other jurisdictions and Westminster-style Parliaments in order to compare and contrast their administrative oversight”. Personally I see that as almost the most important piece in all of this. Having said that, I just want to go to a really minor logistical point, which is that we don't always do the best job in Parliament in general and maybe in this committee because of the room we're traditionally in. If we're going to have witnesses with that kind of expertise, some of them are going to be beamed in. Can we just make sure that we have absolutely the best technological set-up for that? Because we've struggled in the past.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]We'll see if we can get it. Some of these people will not come in person, as we've learned in the past, but—you're right—in our effort to do the best with—Committee businessCraigScottToronto—DanforthScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1827ScottReidScott-ReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ReidScott_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Reid: (1345)[English]It's the room with the replicator. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!JoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonCraigScottToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/75006CraigScottCraig-ScottToronto—DanforthNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ScottCraig_NPD.jpgInterventionMr. Craig Scott: (1345)[English]It's just a way of saying that there are better rooms than ours.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Lennox and AddingtonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]You don't like our cozy little rooms.The answer is yes, we can move forward. The other answer is that we exist only in kind of a name situation, but some of this work is already out there being done so that we can be as prepared as possible for the earliest possible date to start this study.Mr. Cullen, on a very small point.Committee businessCraigScottToronto—DanforthNathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25493NathanCullenNathan-CullenSkeena—Bulkley ValleyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CullenNathan_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Nathan Cullen: (1345)[English]I would just express from the official opposition side, as New Democrats, that the urgency of this is very high for us. We'll be endeavouring to act under deadlines for ourselves in terms of witness list submission. I say this through you to the staff. It is a real downside of prorogation...and I know there are many reasons that go into it, but one of the bad aspects is that work as important as this is, by my understanding of all the technical aspects, is delayed. If the Prime Minister prorogues this week, as Mr. Lukiwski and others have suggested is necessary, and if he wants not to convene and not to start work next week, then other than doing some of this advance legwork, it is delayed.We are going to endeavour to meet that deadline. I would encourage my colleagues to also have that type of urgency, as well as in the submission of those themes. As Mr. Scott pointed out, and I think Mr. Reid across the way agreed, there will be some that have greater importance, or have greater impact on our work, than others. It would be good if committee members put their minds to that, to say that this aspect or that aspect has greater importance, to give guidance on where we put the preponderance of our weight and our work, and to reach out to those groups and individuals right now. Just because the Prime Minister shuts down Parliament doesn't mean we stop working; hence, this meeting today and the work that we want to get started on as soon as possible. It is unfortunate that the committee exists only in a ghostly form for the next little while, because it would be great to start this work. We're very keen to do it.That's it.Committee businessJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonJoePrestonElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25448JoePrestonJoe-PrestonElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/PrestonJoe_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Great.I have no one else on my speakers list. We've accomplished what we needed to do to prepare ourselves for the fall and a new motion setting forward.... That's exactly what we'll do.Is there anything else for the good of this committee today?It's great to see you all on a Sunday afternoon.We are adjourned.NathanCullenSkeena—Bulkley Valley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Larry Miller (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, CPC)): (1555)[English]We'll call our meeting to order.Before my opening comments, I would like all of us to stand and take a moment of silence in recognition of the 50 deceased or missing.[A moment of silence observed]The Chair: Thank you.As everyone is aware, this is the first meeting of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities since the tragic accident, the train derailment, at Lac-Mégantic in Quebec.I can tell you that being on site last Wednesday—I toured with the minister, and we were very well received—had a very profound effect on me. There were a number of different things. It's not something that I would want to witness every day, nor is it something that I think any of us would want to witness. Going forward, I think I speak for everyone on this committee and in government when I say we want to make sure this kind of thing never happens again. I saw a number of things down there that will stick with me for a long time: from a row of burnt-out foundations with one little house standing in the middle of them—it was very surreal—to majestic oak trees that are nothing but blackened wood sticks sticking out of the ground. The heat was so intense that the rocks used for a breakwall down around the lake itself are ready to crumble. Any pavement that was in that area was totally burnt off, while any cement—sidewalks and what have you—is burnt to the point where, when you walk on it, it's more like walking on a thin layer of sand than actually walking on cement.When you first look at the tank cars where the main derailment and explosions were—and this thought was echoed by one of the investigators there—you think there are 15 or 20 cars, until you start looking and really counting the mangled mess. There are 70 some there. I saw wheels off train cars sitting out in the middle of a parking lot or a vacant field. Those things weigh tonnes, and you have to imagine the force of the explosion that blew them there.Going forward, ladies and gentlemen, I think it is fair to say that we never want to see this kind of thing again. If you get a chance to support anybody there, I would certainly think that would be welcomed. But at the same time, it was made very clear by different people—some business people, the mayor, the local MPP—that the last thing the people there want or need is for us to be interfering or taking the investigators away from doing their job down there.I know, Mr. Rousseau, you're a neighbouring member of Parliament to the riding—and I did run into Mr. Rousseau down there—and it was good of you to be there and show your support. That's the end of my comments.I'm going to have a speaking list here, and I have Mr. Watson first of all.Deaths and funeralsLac-MéganticMoment of silenceRail transport safetyRailway accidentsJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson (Essex, CPC): (1600)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, committee members who are gathered here today. Mr. Chair, just for purposes of guiding discussion, I'd like to move a motion, and we'll have discussion around that. I move “That, the committee conduct a study on rail safety when more findings of the TSB investigation into the disaster at Lac-Mégantic are available.” I believe we have that in both official languages for the committee's benefit.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardLac-MéganticMotionsRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Could you give...?JeffWatsonEssexJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1600)[English]I can read it in French as well, if you'd like.LarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]I do have a copy here. We should make sure that a copy, if possible, is distributed to all the members—or does everybody...? No?JeffWatsonEssexJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1600)[English]Rather than having a general discussion, I felt it would be productive to have a motion to actually discuss.Mr. Chair, should I continue?LarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Continue.JeffWatsonEssexJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1605)[English]Obviously, we are dealing with a very devastating situation here, a tragic accident in Lac-Mégantic. First of all, I think all of us at the table here express not only our condolences to the families and friends of those who have lost loved ones, but also our solidarity with the community as it comes to grips with what has happened and looks to the future, and what that can look like for the community. I think the government has, from the beginning, with the Prime Minister and other ministers who have been on-site, demonstrated that not only can we can act but that we will do so as emerging evidence supports it. The question today, though, and why we've been called back, is whether we should commence a study immediately and continue through the summer and, presumably, into the fall and some period of time afterwards, and whether or not it is necessary to have that study at this particular time. I would point out by way of history of the committee—a committee that I've been on since 2007—that this standing committee has shown in the past not only its capacity but also its will to act when it comes to studying things that are important, including rail safety. Mr. Chair, if you'll remember, in 2008 this committee undertook an important study and report into rail safety in Canada. The question that the committee had to grapple with, though, if you'll remember contextually, was the series of high-profile train derailments, several of them, in the years leading up to 2007. These involved fatalities. They involved damage to the environment. The government at the time, and Minister Cannon who was the transport minister then, appointed an independent panel to look into rail safety and to make recommendations to the government. This committee wanted to conduct its own study as well. We made the decision—and at the time it was a minority Parliament, so it wasn't a government decision—that it would be best to wait until more evidence was in. The study then commenced and the committee produced a report, as I recall, that was not only firm in its recommendations and its findings about rail companies in the undertaking of their safety responsibilities, but also in regard to the regulator itself, Transport Canada. That committee report had significant buy-in.Mr. Chair, as you know, in deciding whether to commence a study now, this committee should also be concerned whether that would draw important resources out of the field, where they belong. There are a number of separate investigations under way, many involving government officials from the Transportation Safety Board. The independent Transportation Safety Board is obviously leading the scientific investigation into the causes of the tragedy at Lac-Mégantic. By its account, Transport Canada is very actively involved on a daily basis with them.Separate from the investigation by the Transportation Safety Board, Transport Canada itself is looking into questions of, and gathering evidence as to, whether the rail company has been compliant with existing regulations. As I understand it, Environment Canada may be doing the same. As we all know, when it comes to having hearings, government officials are always front and centre, and rightly so, in those investigations. (1610)Right now, though, I think it's important, and I think we could all agree, that those resources are best deployed in the field in the short term. That doesn't keep politicians from speculating about the cause. I don't think speculation is fruitful at this particular point. The Transportation Safety Board itself is saying, and I think in their press release they have said, they are going to follow the science in this, the evidence, and as Ms. Tadros said, be careful not to draw premature conclusions about the causes of that tragedy. Notwithstanding that, they have produced two urgent safety advisories to the minister, who promised at the time that Transport Canada would undertake an expedited review of those matters. Today we understand that the government has taken some action in issuing some emergency directives around issues related to the TSB's letter.Those interim measures will ensure that action is taken until such time as rules can be finalized around those regulatory issues. I think the government can and will continue to act in the interim, but I'm not sure that the committee at this particular time, without further findings from the Transportation Safety Board, should be undertaking the study at this point. That doesn't mean there won't be a study. I think the answer from this side of the table is not a “no”; it's a “not yet”. I think we have to let the evidence show us the way forward.If I could crystallize this, Mr. Chair, I think these hearings are taking place, whether or not the opposition is backing away from that now, in the shadow of Lac-Mégantic. Is this committee going to be seized with letting an investigation take its course, one that would be based on evidence, or are we going to try Lac-Mégantic in front of a committee based on speculation? I think the latter would be a very disastrous course for anyone. If we're going to demonstrate the seriousness of this committee, Mr. Chair, then we should wait until we have more findings from the Transportation Safety Board investigation.I'll leave it at that for now. That's why I'm moving the motion.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardDeaths and funeralsDepartment of TransportInquiries and public inquiriesLac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsRailway companiesLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Ms. Chow.JeffWatsonEssexOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow (Trinity—Spadina, NDP): (1610)[English]I have an amendment, that I will read out in full, to Mr. Watson's recommendation.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Just before you go, Ms. Chow, is everyone familiar with the main motion or do we need it read?OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1610)[English]It has been circulated.LarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]You have that, okay.Carry on.OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1610)[English]So I have an amendment to it.Before I move my amendment, I just want to say two things.I can't imagine the horror and the sadness that has descended upon that town—and thank you, Mr. Chair, for being there. We can do a lot to support the families there, whether it's through the Red Cross or by visiting them as tourists. I also want to thank the first responders who have been on the ground and are working around the clock. I can't imagine it's an easy task; I imagine it's life-altering for some of them. They've perhaps even put their lives on the line to do what needs to be done. Of course, there are a lot of officials who are investigating.I believe it is the responsibility of the government, and of course all elected members of Parliament, to make sure that the food we eat, the water we drink, and the trains that come through our communities are in fact safe. That's what a government is for—to make sure there are regulations in place that industry can follow.I say this in the context of having looked at all the recommendations that have been made in the past from investigations of past derailments. I'm not talking about this specific derailment at Lac-Mégantic, but about other serious derailments, whether the one in Burlington, where three people died and some were seriously injured, and others slightly injured and traumatized, or other derailments large and small. There was one in Calgary, Alberta, where thank gosh that train didn't go into the Bow River. There have been other derailments too.After the derailments, especially major ones, the Transportation Safety Board, which has experts on the ground, usually issues a report a year later with its recommendations. Recently, it came out with an annual report that highlighted previous recommendation on a watch list that have not been implemented by Transport Canada.I don't think we need to wait till the investigation is finished. I believe we have enough information before us—and I will detail it in a few minutes' time—to begin to look at some previous recommendations, such as implementing additional backup safety defences to help ensure that signal indications are consistently recognized and followed, that there be voice recorders in locomotive cabs, that safety assessments be carried out at level crossings on high-speed passenger rail along the Quebec-Windsor corridor, and that positive train controls be in place, meaning automatic braking systems. These are the recommendations that the Transportation Safety Board has made over and over again through the years to improve rail safety.Also, the Auditor General's office has a list of recommendations. When it did a study in 2001, it looked at the transportation of dangerous goods. It's a report by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development from the Auditor General's office.You have the key findings in front of you. Let me say that to date there is no quality assurance program, there is no clarity in terms of the roles and responsibility within Transportation Canada for dangerous goods inspections, and there is no system to measure and report on compliance with laws regulating the transportation of dangerous goods. (1615)These three key things are critical to improving rail safety, and they have not been done. Do they relate to the Lac-Mégantic tragedy? I don't know. We don't need to make that assumption, whether they do or do not. But it is our responsibility to make sure that the expert advice is followed now. We do not need to wait another six months or a year or however long the Lac-Mégantic investigation is going to take. I think we can do that work now. That's why I move that in the recommendation in front of us, which reads “That, the committee conduct a study on rail safety”, etc., immediately after the word “safety”, I would like to insert a portion of my letter, which is in front of you, that first:a) The Transportation Safety Board recommendations on rail safety that the agency has not deemed fully satisfactory in terms of the actions taken by Transport Canada[;] b) The December 2011 findings by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development for the Office of the Auditor General on the transportation of dangerous goods;c) Examine if phasing out and replacement of unsafe tanker cars like the DOT-111/CTA-111A design is required.And second:that the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities requests witnesses to appear in front of the committee from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, the Office of the Auditor General, Transport Canada, rail companies and representatives of rail workers, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and as well the Honourable Minister of Transport. Furthermore, that the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities request...copies of the following documents from Transport Canada—the General Operating Instructions and other Safety Management System and audit documents for all Transport Canada-licensed freight rail operators;And that this Study be conducted throughout August and September of 2013, and a report of this study be prepared and reported to the House of Commons in October 2013. Further, that when more findings of the TSB investigation into the disaster at Lac-Mégantic are available, the committee conduct the second part of this rail safety study, and report to the House of Commons its findings.So effectively I've cut this rail safety study into two parts. The first part looks at what has been recommended in the past. When specific recommendations come to us from the TSB from the Lac-Mégantic investigation, we will then do the second part of the study. I see no reason to delay the first part, especially as we are hearing from mayors across Canada. Today, for instance, I saw another request from Vancouver. The Canadian Federation of Municipalities has been saying it wants to see precisely what the protocols are regarding the safety management systems, especially those under which MMA has been operating. They want to see all the documents. They want to make sure that these protocols are connected with the emergency crews in the municipalities, because when there is a derailment, guess what, it's the municipal workers who put their lives on the front line. The Calgary mayor said as much. (1620)They deserve or have the right to know, as of now. We have the power to summon these copies. They have the right to know what is coming through their neighbourhoods, what kinds of dangerous goods are being shipped through their neighbourhoods. They have the right to know what protocol is in place and how they fit into that protocol. They have the right to be consulted, and that's what we should work toward. That's why we are asking for these documents.As to the question of whether we will take people away from the investigation on the ground, absolutely not. I'm not asking the Safety Board staff on the ground investigating to come. Transport Canada should be implementing those previous recommendations. We want them to come and tell us what they are doing and how long will it take for these recommendations to get done.Why won't Transport Canada wait until after the investigation is complete before issuing new directives? Today, two or three hours ago, Transport Canada issued new directives. They didn't wait. They issued emergency directives because they saw the need to do so. They saw the need to reverse the previous position, of having only one operator, back to having two. Remember, Transport Canada gave the approval to move from two operators to one operator. They are now reversing it even though the Transportation Safety Board did not say they had to do that. Last Friday, they did not say that “thou shall” or “you should reverse it”. Transport Canada at 2:30 said they are reversing it. They are saying they need to have two operators. The New Democrats have been saying that for a few weeks now. They didn't wait until the investigation was over. They made that emergency directive because they knew what needed to be done and that's why they took action.We have the road map, not from politicians; we have in front of us the Auditor General's report and the Transportation Safety Board annual report. We have the road map already. There's absolutely no reason for us to wait. I hope my colleagues will support my amendment and allow us to start to work now. We have the responsibility to tell Canadians that we are working together to improve rail safety.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Amendments and subamendmentsCanadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardCities and townsDeaths and funeralsDepartment of TransportEmergency response and emergency respondersHazardous substances and hazardous productsInquiries and public inquiriesInspections and inspectorsLac-MéganticLocomotive engineersRail transport safetyRailway accidentsSafety management systemsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]We're going to suspend. Ms. Chow, your amendment may exceed the scope of the motion, and we're in conference with the clerk. There would not be a problem with it as a motion itself, so if you would just bear with me for a second.(1625)(1625)OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]I would ask the members back. In consultation with the clerk, I do have to rule the amendment out of order. There are three or four reasons, but one is that the main motion by Mr. Watson says “conduct a study on rail safety when more findings....are available”, whereas this amendment is totally contrary to that and says we should do it immediately. That would change the scope of the motion itself. As I said, the amendment as a motion itself would be a different thing. To add it as an amendment here, I have to rule as out of order.Amendments and subamendmentsDecisions of Committee ChairsRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1625)[English]Mr. Chair, if you would allow me, rather than getting caught in....You don't want me to speak again to move my motion. If you would allow me, I will put what I have just done as a separate, stand-alone motion after we deal with this motion, of course.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]That's what I was going to say. I have to point out to you now that your motion would have to be with notice, meaning with 48 hours. With unanimous consent we can come back to that. In the meantime—Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsOliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1625)[English]Mr. Chair, Mr. Watson's motion did not have 48 hours either. I did not challenge it because you didn't raise it. If you want to raise it, I can raise it too. Neither of the motions had 48 hours. However, given that this meeting was called precisely to have a study, I move—if you want me to do that, to make it formal—that with unanimous consent both of these motions be allowed to stand, notwithstanding the 48-hour rule. Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]We have a proposal for unanimous consent. Do we have unanimous consent to deal with the motions?OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1630)[English]I'm not even sure.... Could you what the motion is, Mr. Chair.LarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1630)[English]My motion is to get unanimous consent to waive the 48-hour rule regarding Mr. Watson's motion, and my motion as well, because neither was given with 48 hours' notice. In other committees, normally when we call a meeting to deal with certain issues, motions moved during that time don't take 48 hours. But if the chair requires the 48 hours' notice, I move that we waive that rule, which will require unanimous consent, so that we can debate our motions and not have been called here for nothing and have to pack up and go home without debating anything.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsJeffWatsonEssexLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Just to clarify, it wasn't a requirement of the chair. I was simply pointing out the wording there that was introducing the motion. The clerk just passed on some information. We have to, because we Mr. Watson's motion. As for your motion to deal unanimously with it today, we have to deal with one motion at a time, and then we can deal with your motion after that. Am I clear?Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsOliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1630)[English]I see. I move the motion to allow both motions to stand.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Mr. Holder.OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaEdHolderLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58939EdHolderEd-HolderLondon WestConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/HolderEd_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ed Holder (London West, CPC): (1630)[English]It's not my understanding that when a motion is on the floor, one can then introduce a second motion without first dealing with the initial motion. Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1630)[English]Mr. Chair, my motion was circulated before the beginning of the meeting, so you have to rule that you either allow one or you allow both, or you allow neither. Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsEdHolderLondon WestEdHolderLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58939EdHolderEd-HolderLondon WestConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/HolderEd_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ed Holder: (1630)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I want to come back to and acknowledge that the chair recognized Mr. Watson and that a legitimate motion has been put forward. It seems to me—and I look to the chair's ruling on this—that this is the motion that we should deal with. I think it's substantive. I think it's eminently reasonable. I'm not sure why the vice-chair from the opposition has such objections to dealing with this. Her amendment, which you have ruled inappropriate or out of order, is one thing, and now as a result of that it would appear that what she's trying to do is to then make it a coincident motion. I don't think that's allowed under the rules.I think we recognized Mr. Watson, and I think his motion has to be dealt with.Thank you.Motions and amendmentsPoints of orderRail transport safetyRailway accidentsOliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1630)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the rules, according to the Standing Orders, say that a very substantive motion requires 48 hours' notice. Mr. Watson's motion didn't have 48 hours, as you just pointed out. The Chair: Correct.Mr. Olivia Chow: That's why I was moving a motion to waive the requirement so that we can debate Mr. Watson's motion. That was what I was trying to do. At the same time, you have seen my motion in front of you. Let's not waste time and get bogged down with parliamentary rules. I know them as well as you do, so let's waive the requirements for the 48 hours. If five minutes later, Mr. Holder, you want to move a motion related to studying rail safety systems, let's do it. Let's just get on with this.Amendments and subamendmentsMotions and amendmentsPoints of orderRail transport safetyRailway accidentsEdHolderLondon WestJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1630)[English]The motion I moved relates to the business at hand, and I don't believe it requires the requisite notice. Neither would her motion or her amendment require any additional notice if she wanted to move it as a separate motion. It relates to the business at hand.Motions and amendmentsPoints of orderRail transport safetyRailway accidentsOliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Based on your comment, Mr. Watson, you're saying that no unanimous consent is required.Motions and amendmentsPoints of orderRail transport safetyRailway accidentsJeffWatsonEssexJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1635)[English]I'm saying that our motion is in order, and if she wants to move her motion afterward, it's in order as well.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1635)[English]I should move it. That's fine.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsJeffWatsonEssexLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Okay. We have that on record.We're going to deal with your motion, Mr. Watson, but I did have Mr. Holder on the speakers list. You're okay?OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaEdHolderLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58939EdHolderEd-HolderLondon WestConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/HolderEd_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ed Holder: (1635)[English]I'll wait.LarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Is there further discussion on Mr. Watson's motion?Mr. McGuinty.EdHolderLondon WestDavidMcGuintyOttawa South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9486DavidMcGuintyDavid-McGuintyOttawa SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McGuintyDavidJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David McGuinty (Ottawa South, Lib.): (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Just by way of opening remarks, I join my colleagues in saying our sympathies remain with the people of Lac-Mégantic. This has been a terrible tragedy and a shocking loss of life. Canadians from coast to coast to coast are shocked, and their hearts and their support are with the people of Lac-Mégantic.The Transportation Safety Board, the police, and others are still investigating this tragedy, one of the most tragic in Canadian history. In fact, this morning we counted a total of almost nine currently ongoing or prospective investigations, Mr. Chair.The Transportation Safety Board has 20 people on the ground in Lac-Mégantic full-time and 10 here in Ottawa. There is a criminal inquiry. There is a formal coroner's investigation. Transport Canada is investigating with respect to regulatory compliance. Environment Canada is investigating with respect to spills and tankers. Quebec's ministry of the environment and sustainable development is investigating. A class-action lawsuit has been launched by the people of Lac-Mégantic. The railway's own internal railway investigation is pending, and the Quebec government is possibly going to be pursuing a public inquiry.I think as we go through this meeting this afternoon we cannot lose sight of the people of Lac-Mégantic. I know there are always procedural difficulties in a committee like this, but I think you have to remain focused on making sure the people of Lac-Mégantic get the support they need now.I know our colleague from the NDP assures the committee that if we pursue an immediate study there will be no impact on those resources. I wish I could say that with the same absolute certainty.I think the single next most important thing is that the ongoing investigations be thorough, complete, and professional. I don't think we can be calling witnesses to Ottawa, Mr. Chair, who are needed at the site of the disaster, for example. The residents of Lac-Mégantic and all Canadians deserve no less than to get all the facts and the truth of the matter. That's why we have to ensure that these investigations are unimpeded, that they are resourced properly, and that they are not obstructed, particularly with politics.We need to make sure that the Transportation Safety Board, the police, the firefighters, the coroner's office, and all first responders have the resources they need. Are those resources sufficient? This committee can't answer that question. Is the federal government providing enough assistance? An announcement was made yesterday. If they have all the necessary resources, we must let them proceed without political intervention or disruption. I don't know if this committee can answer the question of whether the $60 million announced yesterday is sufficient or not for the people of Lac-Mégantic. Of course we can't prejudge the outcome of the current investigations, and only a fool would attempt to do so. To have hearings before they have completed their investigations may be premature. We have heard many questions raised here today. There are other questions that might be addressed in due course. Is the relief money for the victims and the businesses—the people of Lac-Mégantic—sufficient? I'm not sure we're in a position to answer that question, but it is a very important question that does have to be addressed immediately.With respect to liability issues, is the $25 million in place sufficient? The common consensus is it's probably not. Is the Canadian taxpayer going to be asked to pay for the cleanup if the company becomes insolvent? Has the government instructed Justice Canada to prepare the necessary and requisite legal opinions and not to wait? I understand. I think all Canadians understand the calls of the population for immediate answers. We cannot prejudge the conclusions.(1640)I have full confidence—and I know everybody here does—in the Transportation Safety Board and the police investigation. Everyone has questions about this event. Once again, it might be premature to put forward any recommendations until the investigation is complete.Let me also say that, looking forward, when I look at the motion that's here, we should be cognizant of the fact that the Transportation Safety Board has, unusually, written two letters to Transport Canada and the government with respect to unattended trains and trains carrying dangerous goods. This is new for the Transportation Safety Board, as far as I understand it, early in the midst of an incredibly important investigation. This is out of the ordinary. There are no conclusions here, but the question might be, what motivated the Transportation Safety Board to take this unusual step?There have been recommendations made from other accidents over the past few years, as has been alluded to earlier. An inventory conducted by our analyst and researcher could be compiled this summer and would be helpful to all members of this committee. The question of the status or implementation of those recommendations is something that this committee, I think, has to turn its mind to in due course.So I think we have to focus on what is emerging from the investigations, for example, the recent TSB statements, the measures that were released an hour-and-a-half or two hours ago. There is nothing wrong with these, in terms of being starting points, but once the investigations are done, or at least in mid-course or further along, we will be able to offer specific regulatory and legal responses. Because these investigations are going to be specific—I think we can anticipate that—we will have to respond to what the government is being called upon to do. That is where I think our role as legislators kicks in and really begins.That does not mean that each of us cannot go forward and continue with our own internal assessment of what's been happening over the last several years. It does not mean that our analyst cannot be instructed to go forward and work with the Library of Parliament to provide us with a more fulsome picture of where we're coming from, how we arrived at the situation and, hopefully, to inform us of what we're going to learn from this terrible tragedy at Lac-Mégantic.I think that's where we ought to be focusing, in terms of the motion that's been tabled by our colleagues in the Conservative Party. I don't think any more bickering about procedural rules is going to help the people of Lac-Mégantic. If the government can continue to ensure that all of those on the ground have everything they need to do their job, I think we can have some confidence as legislators that we've done what is immediately the most important thing.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardCostsDeaths and funeralsEnvironmental clean-upInquiries and public inquiriesLac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.Mr. Aubin.DavidMcGuintyOttawa SouthRobertAubinTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin (Trois-Rivières, NDP): (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Given the discussion we've been having since the meeting began, I would like to share a few thoughts with my colleagues, respectfully, of course .I think my colleague Ms. Chow did an excellent job of explaining the problem. We can well imagine that the eyes of the entire Lac-Mégantic community are on us as we discuss this issue, but that's only part of the picture. The truth is every resident of a town whose urban landscape is dotted by a railway now lives in fear because of what happened in Lac-Mégantic. Just as the brave people of Lac-Mégantic are rolling up their sleeves and working tirelessly to put their community back together, I believe the entire population expects the country's politicians to support them throughout the process.That being said, we are more or less in agreement that we aren't going to rush the findings of the investigation under way as we speak, on the ground. Never was there any question of taking resources or money away from the investigation into the Lac-Mégantic disaster so the committee could undertake a more comprehensive study on transport safety.Be that as it may, we seem to be dealing with some inconsistencies, or considerations, that we need to address. Take, for instance, the measures that were re-introduced at around 2:30 this afternoon. They were put in place for a period of six months, but everyone here knows that we probably won't have the report on the Lac-Mégantic tragedy in six months' time. Once that period is up, we'll be confronted with the same questions the people are asking right now, questions that are causing them to feel increasingly unsafe. Someone has to try to allay that fear, and if not the federal administration or this committee, then who? Isn't that our true mandate? I think enough pre-Lac-Mégantic reports on rail incidents have come out to allow us to start examining the situation and looking for answers to many of the questions that the Lac-Mégantic tragedy has brought to light.Will the Lac-Mégantic report give us more insight into rail safety and shed more light on the issues? We'll respond accordingly at that point, and that is the reason for the second part of the motion. The motion, as presented, in essence focuses solely on Lac-Mégantic and suggests that we would wait for the report, because we can't do anything now. What that motion does is send all Canadians the message that they will have to continue feeling unsafe and asking questions that we might address at some point down the road if we have all the information.And once we have all the facts on the tragic incident in Lac-Mégantic, does that mean we'll be able to alleviate the concerns of the other municipalities? They're asking how do they figure out what products are being transported through their region. They want to know what emergency measures the mayor can put in place, when they don't even know which goods are moving through their municipalities or who the first responders are. The bottom line is that there are numerous issues we could start discussing now to work together on finding solutions.I was—and still am—hopeful that we won't spend this meeting hiding behind partisan politics and strategies. My hope is that we will listen and respond to the fears and concerns of not just the people of Lac-Mégantic, but also the residents of many municipalities across Quebec. They are looking to their politicians for guidance now, not in two years.Some people are even speculating that the tragedy in Lac-Mégantic could have been prevented. I don't know. Perhaps the report will tell us. It's too early to draw any conclusions in that regard.(1645)What is clear, however, is that we have a responsibility to do everything possible to prevent another accident of this magnitude or worse, even one that is less serious. And that means we must get to work now. What's more, because it's summertime and the House isn't sitting, we have more time. And people expect us to tackle these questions as a matter of priority. That is our job. I hope we can work out a schedule very quickly, instead of arguing about commas in a motion whose relevance, I repeat, extends far beyond the Lac-Mégantic accident.Who are people supposed to rely on for peace of mind when they go to bed at night, for total assurance that they are now safe, no matter where they live in the country?Thank you.Cities and townsInquiries and public inquiriesLac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Aubin.Mr. Adler.RobertAubinTrois-RivièresMarkAdlerYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71824MarkAdlerMark-AdlerYork CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AdlerMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Adler (York Centre, CPC): (1650)[English]Thank you, Chair.I've been listening with great interest to both members of the NDP and the member of the Liberal Party. I've been here now for, I guess, a little over two years, and it's quite striking how the NDP never finds a way to rise above their partisanship and wants to play cheap political games with one of the greatest tragedies that ever happened in Canada.The fact of that matter is that the scene of the tragedy at Lac-Mégantic is currently a crime scene. There are a number of investigations, including a couple of criminal investigations, currently under way. The NDP talks about recommendations from prior rail disasters. Those recommendations are quite clear. They're available to anyone who wants to read them. There's no need to have a committee to reread what is already in black and white. They should use their time to read those themselves. We at this committee, however, should be waiting for the final results of investigations that will transpire in Lac-Mégantic.We cannot afford at this point in time to hinder any investigation occurring right now at Lac-Mégantic. We cannot afford to take the experts who are currently invested in this crime scene away from that. We have a very limited number of these kinds of people who have these investigative skills in this country, and they are doing their utmost, some of them working without sleep, to conduct this work. It is imperative, an obligation of elected political officials, to wait for the investigation and to wait for the results and the recommendations that transpire from these various investigations. Now is not the time to be studying—I see Mr. Nantel finds some humour in this, but I fail to see any humour whatsoever—but to let the proper authorities do so. We must have respect for not only the victims, who currently are not all accounted for, but also the families and friends of these victims. I say this is just not the right time for this. I say the NDP lacks any shame and common decency, and I am shocked and appalled that they would come forward and want to play cheap politics with one of the greatest tragedies that has ever occurred in Canada.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Mr. Holder.MarkAdlerYork CentreEdHolderLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58939EdHolderEd-HolderLondon WestConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/HolderEd_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ed Holder: (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to put a different slant on this, if I may. The hearts and compassion of all of us in this room, those around this table and others present, go to the families who lost members or others close to them at Lac-Mégantic. All of us feel that way. I think that's clear. I don't challenge the official opposition's motives in trying to get to the bottom of things and see things through.Having said that, I think we're talking about timing. I thought Mr. Watson's motion was balanced and fair. I thought Mr. McGuinty's response to it was balanced and fair. It struck me that all of us are trying to do the right thing. We'll be measured by doing the right thing. The fact that we are back here in Parliament having this discussion rather than at Lac-Mégantic, which I know was an option suggested by someone earlier, I think shows some sensitivity, and I think it is appropriate.We all try to make sense of something like this. When you lose people who are close to you, nothing can bring those folks back, but we have an obligation as members of Parliament to do our very best. Part of that comes back to the timing for us to consider this. My deepest fear—and I think it was articulated well by Mr. Watson and Mr. McGuinty—is that anything that takes away from the work that needs to be done by those folks in the various studies that are taking place is inappropriate. I think we'd all agree it's inappropriate. What has Transport Canada done? Mr. Chair, if you'll allow me, I think there are a few things we need to put into the record, because I think it is important that we acknowledge here that some actions are being taken. This comes from Transport Canada, which made an announcement about certain emergency directives to increase rail safety. As was referenced earlier, these were announced today. I need to share them with the committee. There are six points. Effective immediately, the emergency directive requires all rail operators to: Ensure that no locomotive attached to one or more loaded tank cars transporting dangerous goods is operated with fewer than two qualified persons on a main track or sidings;Ensure that no locomotive attached to one or more loaded tank cars transporting dangerous goods is left unattended on a main track;Ensure, within five days of the issuance of the directive, that all unattended controlling locomotives on a main track and sidings are protected from unauthorized entry into the cab;Ensure the directional controls, commonly known as reversers, are removed from any unattended locomotives, preventing them from moving forward or backward, on a main track or sidings;Ensure that their company’s special instructions on hand brakes are applied to any locomotive attached to one or more cars that is left unattended for more than one hour on a main track or sidings;Ensure that, in addition to complying with their company’s special instructions on hand brakes referred to in the item immediately above, the automatic brake is set in full service position and the independent brake is fully applied for any locomotive attached to one or more cars that are left unattended for one hour or less on a main track or sidings. Mr. Chair, I'd like to offer this in English and French as part of the testimony today so we can get the precise wording in case my English isn't as good. The translation of my accent can be quite challenging. I'd like to submit that if I may.Mr. Chair, what are we trying to do when all of this is said and done? If a government, and I mean all of us in government, is not responsible for the safety of Canadians, which is what it is expected to be, then we are not doing our job. I think Mr. Watson's motion is thoughtful. It doesn't presuppose that we are going to take away from the efforts and initiatives of the current review and investigations—and there are several—that are going on. I think that's our obligation as politicians who are elected to serve the people of this country. I think that's what we do. I hope we allow that to go on. There's nothing in what Ms. Chow said that might not be considered as we go forward with this. (1655)Frankly, I think what all of us here are talking about is a question of timing. I think that's all we're talking in terms of. Let them do what they do, and then we bring all of this to bear. I think that's the thoughtful thing. I have a sense that it feels right; it balances the comments that everyone's made as we work towards doing the right thing.I would hope that we would allow Mr. Watson's motion to pass and that we would be vigilant. We don't have a choice to leave this by the wayside. We have an obligation to be vigilant; Canadians expect no less than that. But I do think it is a function of timing and doing this right. It must be comprehensive.I would like to make some suggestions about the official opposition's comments when they come back to this later. As opposed to presuming certain conclusions that might well come out of the reviews that are taking place and that might well be worth reviewing, frankly, if they are, I say we review them, and we study them hard. I think we have to do that. I just think at this stage that piece of it is not in the best interests of the people of Lac-Mégantic or Canadians.Thank you, Chair.Deaths and funeralsDepartment of TransportHazardous substances and hazardous productsInquiries and public inquiriesLac-MéganticLocomotivesRail transport safetyRailway accidentsRailway carsStatements of requirementsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Holder.Mr. Nantel.EdHolderLondon WestPierreNantelLongueuil—Pierre-Boucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Pierre-BoucherNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel (Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, NDP): (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to start by thanking Mr. Holder for putting the discussion back on a constructive track, contrary to the tone taken by Mr. Adler, when he falsely accused me of finding some sort of humour in such a tragic situation. There is no doubt that we share the sorrow of the people who suffered in this tragedy, and that our thoughts are with all Canadians, all Quebeckers and all the people of Montérégie who are worried about the situation.I would like to point out that, because it is absolutely necessary to let the key experts stay in Lac-Mégantic—and that goes without saying—it would be heresy to even consider pulling away anyone serving as a first responder or whose particular skill set is needed now. But it also goes without saying that the sooner we begin this study, the better off everyone will be.I can tell you that the people in Boucherville, who were mentioned in a La Presse article the day before yesterday, are troubled by the fact that certain railway cars carrying unknown goods pass 20 feet away from a school. This isn't a matter of whether to move the railway line or not, but a matter of getting the necessary information.The residents of Longueuil are a bit less anxious because they know they have a planning committee managing rail transport, and that's a good thing. Does every city have such a committee? Based on the recommendations of a study like ours, which should begin immediately, Transport Canada could open up the lines of communication with municipalities to ensure each of them is better informed about what's going on in their backyard. It could do that, couldn't it?These are crucial considerations, to my mind, and I see no reason to oppose them. I think everyone can see the importance of examining the issue quickly. We're being accused of playing partisan politics, and yet Transport Canada made the decision to implement temporary emergency measures as a pragmatic and immediate response to the accident. It took action that needed to be taken now.I wouldn't want to give Canadians who are following this committee's proceedings the impression that all politicians do is talk. On the contrary, let's get on with it and do our job, please.Cities and townsLac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsSafety management systemsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you very much.I now have Mr. Rousseau.PierreNantelLongueuil—Pierre-BoucherJeanRousseauCompton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58637JeanRousseauJean-RousseauCompton—StansteadNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RousseauJean_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Jean Rousseau (Compton—Stanstead, NDP): (1700)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I want to thank everyone who travelled to be here today.What I can speak to is the human element in all this and the serious concerns of the elected officials, mayors and reeves of regional county municipalities in my riding. Railways that have been privatized in recent decades run through a dozen or so of the municipalities in my riding, sometimes in the centre of town, sometimes just on the outskirts. People have a lot of questions, and they could get answers to those questions right away. The fact of the matter is that all kinds of studies and reports have already been done but were simply ignored. They were never given any real consideration.People are worried. One month before the Lac-Mégantic disaster, a spill occurred just a few kilometres away. About 3 feet of track was damaged, resulting in a toxic spill. In Farnham, the week following the tragedy, two wheels of a rail car came off the track but didn't cause any damage. Just a few days later, a tourist train collided with a vehicle at a railway crossing because the lights didn't come on.All of that is weighing heavily on our elected representatives and people. They are seriously worried. I've been to the site of the tragedy twice, once with our leader. Six of the municipalities in my riding are close to Lac-Mégantic. I went to those areas to talk to people who had loved ones, family or businesses that were affected. All the small agribusinesses saw their revenues drop by 80% right after the tragedy. That was one part of the immediate collateral damage. Those people, too, are worried. They are worried about their income. Their concern doesn't have to do with rail safety but is still a legitimate worry.What happens if an accident occurs right in the heart of downtown Sherbrooke? The mayors are extremely concerned and don't have the answers to their questions. The same goes for me and the members for other ridings in Quebec where the MMA rail company or other American companies have acquired railway lines in recent decades.We're hearing about railway bridges that were built in the late 19th century. Municipal officials are saying they don't really know who does what or whether anyone even inspects these sites. People need reassurance, and that will only come from a study. We have to work together. We have to keep in mind the human tragedy that happened. How will the people react when the trains start running again? What will happen? Will we see barricades? What will happen on the ground if we don't reassure people?A sure way to reassure people is to do our duty as elected officials, and that means pulling together and studying a whole slew of reports that have come out in past years. The study on the disaster will produce other findings, but right now, people have a multitude of questions that aren't being answered. Rail transportation is our responsibility because it comes under federal jurisdiction. What we must do quickly is assume our responsibility and reassure Canadians.(1705)I would appeal to the chair to have the committee conduct a study and gather information. All of us need to join forces and work together. I am calling on every member to put partisanship aside. Partisan politics have no place in this matter. We've got a human tragedy on our hands, and I want us to give Canadians across the country some reassurance, and quickly.Cities and townsInquiries and public inquiriesLac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsRailway companiesLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Rousseau.Mr. Watson.JeanRousseauCompton—StansteadJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1705)[English]Briefly, Mr. Chair, I hope to inject a little clarity here.I thought I understood by Ms. Chow's response to my motion that there was consensus that we could have a study when more findings were available from the TSB. She simply wanted to be able to bring forward a motion for a second, earlier study. Most of the debate I've heard from her colleagues has been around both motions instead of the singular one, or making the case in favour of what would be her proposed motion.I'm hopeful, if there's consensus on this, we can move to a vote on this motion, allow Ms. Chow to bring forward her motion, and then discuss the merits of what she's proposing.Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]I have one more speaker on the list here.Mr. Menegakis.JeffWatsonEssexCostasMenegakisRichmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71762CostasMenegakisCostas-MenegakisRichmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MenegakisCostas_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Costas Menegakis (Richmond Hill, CPC): (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Chair, I don't believe there's a person on this committee, or indeed a person in this room or a Canadian from coast to coast to coast, who does not feel for the people of Lac-Mégantic. It is indeed a very tragic event, one of the biggest in our country. To suggest either directly or indirectly that there has been anything but focus on Lac-Mégantic from the onset of this tragic event I think would be way out of line.To put things into perspective, I'll begin with the political side. Certainly the Prime Minister, the Minister of Transport, the local minister and local MP, the leaders of the opposition parties, you, Mr. Chair, as the chair of the transport committee, and other MPs from the surrounding area have visited the site. They didn't visit the site as tourists; they visited the site to assess the tremendous damage and the hurt of the people. Some of the bodies have not yet been identified. The potential environmental damage from this catastrophe is still to be determined. There are professionals, experts in the field, who have been on the ground from the beginning, including from Transport Canada and the Transportation Safety Board and from police services under the lead of the Sûreté du Québec. There are a lot of unanswered questions that we all want answers to. It's not that one politician wants more answers than others. I don't believe that one group or one party or one person feels more than another when it comes to the tremendous human tragedy that has taken place there.It is our duty as legislators to act once we have all of the necessary information in order to act. I don't know how we can conduct any study now without speaking to some of those people who eventually will determine the cause of the tragedy. We don't know how it happened yet. To sit as a committee and come up with conclusions and to conduct a review without speaking to the actual people, those resources who are very much needed in the area right now, would be a huge disservice to the people of Lac-Mégantic. There is no question in my mind about that.I find Mr. Watson's motion very thoughtful. I find that it leaves the door open. It asks the committee to conduct a study when there are more findings available so we that know where we should be focusing first. Those are the answers that the people of Lac-Mégantic want. Those are the answers that the mayors in the surrounding area want. Those are the answers that the mayor in my town of Richmond Hill, a town I represent here—we have trains going through with product—want. We want to know what happened, how it happened, and how it can be prevented in the future.Not knowing what actually happened, not having an opportunity to speak to the people who investigated it, not having the results of the findings, without being in any way, shape or form demeaning to anyone in this room, I find it premature at this time.... I'm in full support of Mr. Watson's motion because I really believe it's going to give the best opportunity for the right action to be taken by parliamentarians on this committee.Thank you.Lac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you, Mr. Menegakis.I am now going to call the question. Is it the wish of the committee for me to reread the motion?Point of order, Ms. Chow.CostasMenegakisRichmond HillOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1710)[English]Mr. Chair, I just want to ask for your ruling. I assume that if the motion now in front of us is adopted, it would not preclude my motion's standing, because we can certainly do two separate studies if we choose to. Is that your understanding?Rail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]I believe, based on Mr. Watson's comment—Ms. Olivia Chow:—that was the case. They could complement each other.The Chair: Mr. McGuinty.OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaDavidMcGuintyOttawa South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9486DavidMcGuintyDavid-McGuintyOttawa SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McGuintyDavidJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David McGuinty: (1710)[English]Thanks, Mr. Chair.Just before we call the vote—I think that's where you're moving procedurally—LarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Yes, I am. DavidMcGuintyOttawa SouthDavidMcGuintyOttawa South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9486DavidMcGuintyDavid-McGuintyOttawa SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McGuintyDavidJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David McGuinty: (1715)[English]—could I ask a question of clarification through you to Mr. Watson? The Chair: Certainly.Mr. David McGuinty: It speaks to the question of timing that Mr. Holder raised a few times.Can you give us some idea of the parameter of “when” is? When are more findings of a TSB investigation likely to be released? Is he looking at the possibility? Is there an interim report to be released by the TSB, and what does he think might constitute sufficient findings to trigger the study going forward? That would be helpful for all of us to get a better idea of what's implied in the motion.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardLac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Mr. Watson.DavidMcGuintyOttawa SouthJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1715)[English]Thank you to our colleague on that.Mr. Chair, as you know, the motion itself does not state that we have to wait for final findings from the Transportation Safety Board. It's simply that there would be more findings. Obviously, we will be meeting again when Parliament resumes in the fall. I think at that point we're going to be able to have a good look. I suspect we'll have...although I don't know for sure, as I can't climb inside the TSB's mind at this particular point on the specific timing of additional findings. But they have made a commitment to make them known as quickly as possible from my reading of their July 19 press release, I think it was. Or, certainly, in one of the letters they sent to the minister, they stated that they would be making everything immediately known as soon as they have it in terms of significant urgent safety findings. I think that's what we're looking at.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardLac-MéganticRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]If I could, Mr. McGuinty, based on that, I think it would be prudent for me to point out—and I think the date was last Friday, July 19—that the TSB normally would probably wait and have a report at the end of it, but they did issue some, if I could call them, “interim suggestions”. I think that probably led to some of the changes that were announced by Transport Canada today.I would probably hope, and I would presume we all would too, that should the TSB have more suggestions or rulings like this, they will probably come out with them, due if anything to the expanse of the tragedy that happened down there.With no other comments I'm now going to call the question.All those in favour of the motion? Opposed?(Motion agreed to) The Chair: Carried unanimously. Ms. Chow.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardDecisions in committeeLac-MéganticMotionsRail transport safetyRailway accidentsJeffWatsonEssexOliviaChowTrinity—Spadina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20816OliviaChowOlivia-ChowTrinity—SpadinaNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChowOlivia_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Olivia Chow: (1715)[English]Mr. Chair, I don't need to repeat what I said earlier. I will move my motion again. It's in front of you. I don't need to read it out again.I do, though, want to highlight a few areas, one of which is examining whether the phasing out and replacement of tanker cars like those of the DOT-111 design is required. I want to point out that several times the Transportation Safety Board has highlighted problems with these kinds of cars, once in Cornwall, once in Maxville, and another time in a derailment in Saint-Romuald, Quebec. A train was bound for Montreal and it derailed. They said very clearly that because these kinds of trains were used, that is, these tanker cars, there was a significant spill of hydrocarbons when the tank shells and the heads were breached, even though the derailment happened in a marshy area where the surrounding terrain was particularly soft. The TSB has also investigated and reviewed other instances of the vulnerability of this type of car being punctured even in low-speed accidents.The Canadian Transportation Safety Board's findings were echoed by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. It also recommended, after reviewing six or seven derailments, that there should be “modification of bottom outlet valves on DOT-111 tank cars used to transport hazardous materials”, etc., and that had that been done “the release of hazardous materials likely would have been significantly reduced, mitigating the severity of the accident.” I point that out to say that whether it's now or later, I think Transport Canada needs to grapple with how to phase out the use of these DOT-111 cars.The Transportation Safety Board further has said, looking at other recommendations, that it needs to “coordinate with the appropriate provincial authorities to require that tank trucks placarded for the transport of dangerous goods stop at all public crossings before proceeding.” It had asked for “locomotive data recorders to include on board voice recording systems”, and these requests have been ongoing since 1999. It also has asked for “other recommendations, including those on grade crossing regulations... ground hazard research...non-pressurized tank car construction standards”, etc., one of which said that Transport Canada “has deferred railway crossing safety assessments of the Quebec-Windsor corridor to rail companies.”There are substantive recommendations from the Transportation Safety Board in front of us. They have said several times, in studying different derailments, that these things need to be done in order to improve rail safety. I've already talked about the Auditor General's report. It is just not acceptable to my mind that we not see any results of the Auditor General's recommendations until April 2014, even though the deadline was supposed to be April 2013.Whether it's having a quality assurance program, clarifying the rules and responsibilities regarding dangerous goods inspection, or developing a system to measure and report laws, all of these things need to be done now. So I am urging my colleagues to put aside their talking points and look at the recommendations in front of us and take the time.(1720)In summer we do have some time. When the transport committee resumes at the end of September, if there's no prorogation, it will be looking at an infrastructure study. We do have some time between now and September 16 to consider some of these recommendations, which have been in front of us for several years now, and to ask Transport Canada what their timeline is to get these things done. It does not take people away from the front line, contrary to what my colleagues have said. It does not require any number of Transportation Safety Board investigators or police officers. We don't need police officers or any number of people in front of us who are investigating what is happening in Lac-Mégantic. That's not what we're talking about. I just want to say that over and over again. Let's not confuse what I'm proposing now...that we want this to be investigated in Lac-Mégantic. That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the road map provided to us by the experts who are already in front of us, and we should work together to get it done. I do hope that my Conservative and Liberal colleagues will come to the conclusion to support these recommendations.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardHazardous substances and hazardous productsInquiries and public inquiriesLocomotivesMotionsRail transport safetyRailway accidentsRailway carsSafety management systemsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Thank you, Ms. Chow.Mr. Watson.OliviaChowTrinity—SpadinaJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1099JeffWatsonJeff-WatsonEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WatsonJeff_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeff Watson: (1720)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the committee for adopting our previous motion. I think much of this can be discussed in the context of a railway safety study. I do want to point out, with respect to the motion that Ms. Chow has moved, that she would be calling members from the Transportation Safety Board to appear before this committee, and that Transport Canada appear in front of this committee. Further, documentation would have to be pulled by Transport officials and provided to the committee. To argue there's no diversion of resources, or that it wouldn't require a split focus, if you will, with Transport Canada or TSB rail experts I think is disingenuous. The question of resources in the interim, through the summer, is I think a pertinent question, even with Ms. Chow's motion.Secondly, I think it has to be said that not only is the railway company being considered by the Transportation Safety Board, but the regulator itself is under investigation, or it is being examined. I point to the July 19 news release by the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, where it talks about issuing two safety advisory letters. Under “Regulatory oversight”, it says, “We have collected data from Transport Canada in order to examine regulatory oversight.” They are requiring documentation, not just relative to the regulatory environment for rail safety, but for the actions of the regulator itself and whether or not they're sufficient. I think the public can be satisfied with the independence of the Transportation Safety Board and that it is investigating all aspects of rail safety, including the regulator's responses. The fact that Transport Canada is involved in this requires that their resources be devoted both to the TSB investigation as well as to other ongoing rail safety issues and to their own examination of whether or not regulatory compliance has been followed in the Lac-Mégantic situation. This motion is requiring that the attention and the resources be divided in the short term. I don't think this is appropriate. It's not that these measures can't be looked at. I would suggest that they're better placed inside the rail safety study as it commences, and we can look at a lot of these particular elements. I think the resource issue will be less apparent as we get into that than it is in the imminent stages of an investigation right now. So, again, it's not a “no”; it is certainly a “not yet”. We'll consider these as we get to the rail safety study.An hon. member: Call the vote, Chair.Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety BoardDepartment of TransportInquiries and public inquiriesRail transport safetyRailway accidentsLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundLarryMillerBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25522LarryMillerLarry-MillerBruce—Grey—Owen SoundConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MillerLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]I have no other speakers on the list so I am now going to call the motion.Ms. Olivia Chow: A recorded vote.(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)The Chair: Is there any further business? With that, I thank everyone for coming to Ottawa. I know it's a busy time in the ridings, and I think we'll all be following the investigation as it comes along. We certainly wish the people of Lac-Mégantic the best in their sorrow and dealing with some of the closure.So with that I will adjourn the meeting.Decisions in committeeLac-MéganticMotionsRail transport safetyRailway accidentsRecorded divisionsJeffWatsonEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Michael Chong (Wellington—Halton Hills, CPC)): (1530)[Translation]Today is Tuesday, June 18, 2013. Welcome to the 86th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.We will be here for an hour to discuss three motions—two from Mr. Godin and one from Mr. Dionne Labelle.I yield the floor to Mr. Godin.Committee businessYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): (1530)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I ask that we stop sitting in camera.MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[Translation]We are not in camera.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1530)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would like us to vote on the motion regarding the marine rescue sub-centre in Quebec City.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[Translation]First, you have to introduce your motion.Committee businessYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1530)[Translation]I will do so, Mr. Chair. It reads as follows:That the committee conducts a study on the closure of the marine rescue sub-centre in Quebec City before September 30, 2012. Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[Translation]We have a motion before the committee. Would someone like to speak to it?Committee businessYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, CPC): (1530)[Translation]Mr. Chair, as I have said before in this committee, I think this motion should rather be moved in the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This is a matter of security, and nothing indicates that bilingualism is not respected in any rescue centres. The Quebec City centre has had the same staff for a number of years.If my colleague opposite really has concerns about security, he could perhaps ask the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to conduct a more comprehensive study on the issue. I don't know whether he wants to debate the matter, but I can continue to do so if he likes. I am just making a suggestion to Mr. Godin.I am wondering if this is really a topic we should be studying. If Mr. Godin thinks that this is a matter of security, our committee should not be handling it. There is no evidence that a bilingualism issue currently exists. Nothing has changed recently. We studied the report of the Commissioner of Official Languages, and I think he did an excellent job. I don't know what you think. Could you elaborate, Mr. Godin?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[Translation]I will yield the floor to Mr. Trottier, and then Mr. Godin can speak.JacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, CPC): (1535)[Translation]I would like to support my colleague. I think that this kind of a study should rather be undertaken by the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. I don't think this is just a matter of language. Many operational and security issues are also involved. It is a matter of equipment, staff and locations. It's not just a matter of linguistics. So I think it would be a good idea to refer to the mandates of the Standing Committee on Official Languages and the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.In the House of Commons, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans always answers any questions related to this. The Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages does not deal with such issues. I think that the fisheries and oceans committee is in a better position to deal with this matter. Its members are familiar with the operations involved in fisheries and oceans. Rescue is a fairly important aspect for them.We could ask the chair of that committee whether they would like to study this topic. As Mr. Gourde said, these operations are important. A connection should be established between operations and this official languages issue.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[Translation]If this is a study on the closing of the marine rescue sub-centre in Quebec City, and it has to do with issues related to the two official languages, it is our committee's responsibility. However, if this motion is adopted, it will be impossible for the chair to do what the motion asks for because it talks about 2012. We cannot produce a study before September 30, 2012.Committee businessBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1535)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I ask that we adopt an amendment, whereby the new date would be October 15, 2013. The amendment would read as follows:That the motion be amended by replacing “September 30, 2012” with “October 15, 2013”. Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[Translation]Okay.We have to deal with an amendment. The date is now October 15, 2013.Mr. Godin, go ahead.Committee businessYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1535)[Translation]I ask that we vote on the amendment.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[Translation]Okay.Would anyone like to speak to it?Mr. Gourde, go ahead.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1535)[Translation]As for my colleague's proposal to amend this motion....Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1535)[Translation]A point of order, Mr. Chair.When a vote is requested, doesn't it have to be held right away? He had not yet raised his hand.JacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[Translation]No. I can call a vote only if no committee members want to debate the amendment.There is no time limit on a debate regarding an amendment or a motion.Would any members of the committee like to debate Mr. Godin's amendment?Mr. Gourde, go ahead.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1535)[Translation]Thank you for letting me speak, Mr. Chair.Sorry, Mr. Godin. I know that you are concerned, but rules must apply to all members of the committee.I understand that you want to make this amendment. We obviously cannot leave September 30, 2012 as the date, since that was last year. However, the motion put forward lapsed about seven or eight months ago. I thought that such a situation would simply require another motion. We cannot vote against an amendment that consists in changing a date, but if we are already opposed to the motion, there is a problem. In a way, you are putting us in a difficult position.You should have simply proposed a new motion with a later date. That certainly would have been simpler for everyone. I think this is a difficult situation for us. We cannot reject your refusal, but we will probably vote against the amendment, and that will lead to a strange situation. We have an opportunity to work together in this committee. It would be easier—for you and for us—if you proposed a new motion that complies with this committee's current rules.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Mr. Trottier, go ahead.JacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1540)[Translation]So the amendment does change the date to October 15, 2013?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Yes.Committee businessBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1540)[Translation]As you know, we are currently conducting a study on immersion. So we would have to look at our schedule. I am wondering how many meetings we will need to carry out the study if we do decide to undertake it. We should nevertheless complete the immersion study. We still have a few meetings to hold on that topic. Mr. Chair, could you tell us how many meetings we will need to complete the study on immersion?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Yes. We have 11 witnesses to hear from. With three witnesses per meeting, I think we would need four meetings to complete this study.Committee businessBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1540)[Translation]Mr. Chair, in light of that, I don't think we could begin the study on the rescue centre. We will not be able to hold enough meetings. With four meetings starting in mid-September, we would complete the study in mid-October. I don't think that's feasible. We should perhaps propose a new amendment or a new date.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Ms. Michaud, go ahead.BernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud (Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, NDP): (1540)[Translation]I think that we could suspend the current study to undertake this other one. I don't think that would be a problem.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Okay.Mr. Dionne Labelle?ÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierPierreDionne LabelleRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71522PierreDionne LabellePierre-DionneLabelleRivière-du-NordNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/DionneLabellePierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Dionne Labelle (Rivière-du-Nord, NDP): (1540)[Translation]I'm fine, actually.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Okay.Mr. Trottier?PierreDionne LabelleRivière-du-NordBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1540)[Translation]We would need a motion to suspend an ongoing study. However, I don't see a motion to that effect. Consequently, I think we have to continue our current study.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]We are now discussing Mr. Godin's amendment.Committee businessBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1540)[Translation]But another motion was proposed to suspend the study on immersion.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Moving another motion at this point would violate the rules. We have to deal with the amendment that is before the committee.[English]We're on the debate on the amendment, and the only way we can move to a new motion is if we dispose of the amendment. We can dispose of the main motion either as amended or not amended, and then frankly at that point we're on to the next motion from Monsieur Godin. He has given notice. That's the order in which we're going to consider this.If you want to amend the main motion after we dispose of this.... If we dispose of this amendment and then you introduce an amendment to the main motion that would call for the suspension of the other study. That's fine, but you can't present another motion at this point.Mr. Chisu—Committee businessBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick Southwest//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): (1540)[English]Mr. Chair, on a point of order, a member on the other side suggested that we suspend the other study. Is that in order, or are you saying that's out of order?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]That's out of order.Committee businessJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick Southwest//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1540)[English]Okay, so that's off the table for the time being. It would require a motion, not from Mr. Trottier, but from the person who made it.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]It would either require an amendment to the main motion under consideration, or a new motion to be made after the other two motions have been disposed of.Committee businessJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick Southwest//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1540)[English]Thank you.MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Mr. Chisu.JohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71755CorneliuChisuCorneliu-ChisuPickering—Scarborough EastConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisuCorneliu_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corneliu Chisu (Pickering—Scarborough East, CPC): (1540)[English]I want to have a clarification. The amendment on the table is about changing the date, right?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]That's right. The amendment in front of us right now is to replace before—Committee businessCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough EastCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71755CorneliuChisuCorneliu-ChisuPickering—Scarborough EastConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisuCorneliu_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corneliu Chisu: (1540)[English]Is it to change Tuesday, May 15 for today's date?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]No. The amendment in front of us is to replace “September 30, 2012” with “October 15, 2013”.Committee businessCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough EastCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71755CorneliuChisuCorneliu-ChisuPickering—Scarborough EastConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisuCorneliu_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corneliu Chisu: (1540)[English]Okay. What about the motion, the title, or—?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Everything else is as is. We're on debate on the amendment in front of us. You can speak in favour of the amendment or against the amendment.Committee businessCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough EastCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71755CorneliuChisuCorneliu-ChisuPickering—Scarborough EastConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisuCorneliu_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corneliu Chisu: (1545)[English]I will speak against the amendment. When was the closure done for the rescue sub-centre? Is it already effective? Was it closed? What was the date? I don't understand the significance of the date here. If we are changing October 13, what is the new date? What was the new date in the amendment...October what?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]October 15.Committee businessCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough EastCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71755CorneliuChisuCorneliu-ChisuPickering—Scarborough EastConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisuCorneliu_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corneliu Chisu: (1545)[English]October 15, 2013. That is not really pertaining to the language issue. I think it is a technical issue. I don't see any real advance to bilingualism and so on, with the closing of the marine rescue sub-centre. Where is that? Is it bilingual? Is it not bilingual? I don't understand how it pertains to this committee. If somebody could explain it to me, I might eventually agree, but I need further explanation of why this has been brought forward in this committee when it is not pertaining to bilingualism.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1545)[Translation]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.This does not concern....CorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough EastMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chisu.Mr. Godin, the floor is yours. YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1545)[Translation]This does not concern the amendment. The purpose of the amendment is to change the date. I don't know whether the member listened to what I said or not, but he should get his facts straight. I apologize, but we have been talking about it for long enough.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[Translation]Okay.[English]All right. Mr. Chisu, do you have anything further to add about the amendment?YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstCorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71755CorneliuChisuCorneliu-ChisuPickering—Scarborough EastConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisuCorneliu_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corneliu Chisu: (1545)[English]I'm just saying that I cannot understand why this amendment should be on the same date, October, and it is not November or something like this.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chisu.Monsieur Trottier.CorneliuChisuPickering—Scarborough EastBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1545)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I think the relevance of the date is that it takes a certain number of meetings to do an exhaustive study. I think just looking at the language component of marine rescue sub-centres is not looking at the problem holistically. If we're going to do a study, I don't think it should be this committee. Fisheries and Oceans should do it because I think you need to look at the operational requirements, things like response times and the deployment of equipment and resources. These are well beyond the scope of the official languages committee.There is a small slice of this which has to do with language capability. But I'd say the question of marine rescue sub-centres is something that Fisheries and Oceans has to deal with, and language is one aspect of it.The question is on how many meetings are required to actually do a study. If you're only looking at one aspect of something as important as marine rescue sub-centres.... Of course, peoples lives are involved, and I think it's important to take those things into consideration.Can this really be done in just two or three meetings? To my colleague's point, would you maybe need six or eight meetings to do that holistic study? We could bring in the experts from Fisheries and Oceans, as well as the ministry of defence, who could talk about the operations and deployment of equipment and the work with the coast guard. That's why I think we need to discuss the date in that context.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Go ahead, Monsieur Godin.BernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1545)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I know that some members were absent and have not read the motion. If we vote on the motion, will those members have the right to participate?If the answer is yes, we will hold another debate.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]If there's no further debate, I'll call the vote on the amendment. I would have called the vote earlier.Is there any further debate? Go ahead, Mr. Trottier.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1545)[English]I think it might be helpful, given some of the logistical challenges of the construction on Parliament Hill, just to do a very brief recap for our colleagues who were just able to arrive—just in terms of there being an amendment that's been proposed and also the debate that's at hand here. I can do that, Mr. Chair.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]I can do that too. Just so everyone is clear, we are—BernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1545)[Translation]Mr. Chair, a point of order.MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[Translation]Mr. Godin put forward a motion, which reads as follows:That the committee conduct a study on the closure of the marine rescue sub-centre in Quebec City before September 30, 2012.Then he proposed an amendment to replace the date of September 30, 2012, with the date of October 15, 2013. That's what we are currently debating.[English]We're on debate on the amendment. So if there's no further debate, then I will call the question on the amendment. If there is further debate, please raise your hands.Yes, Mr. Williamson.Committee businessYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick Southwest//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1550)[English]I'm just curious and this is a little embarrassing. Was this a mistake that was made by a political staffer from the opposition, or is it just a typo that was just made out of your office?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]We were given notice on this—Committee businessJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick Southwest//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1550)[English]No, I mean the error on the date, 2012.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]It's not an error. We were given notice for this motion on May 15, 2012. That's why the date is the way it is.We have a point of order from Monsieur Godin.Committee businessJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1550)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I raised my point of order to find out whether, if we vote now, the members who came into the room moments ago will have the right to vote?Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[Translation]Yes, they have the right to vote.Committee businessYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1550)[Translation]They have the right to vote. In that case, Mr. Chair, I would like to speak to the motion. I raised my hand to talk about it.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]We have to vote on the amendment. You can't withdraw an amendment.Committee businessYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1550)[English]No, I didn't say I wanted to withdraw it. I said I want to speak on it.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Sure, go ahead.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1550)[Translation]The date was problematic. According to Mr. Trottier, we may not have the time to conduct a comprehensive study because, if it takes longer, we will have to check how the system works. This may have to do with Trenton or Halifax, as that is where the whole thing should be transferred.As for the date, I think the committee should decide what date to go with. I don't think we had set a specific date for the other study. I have seen studies begin and stop over time. So another study would be carried out, and then the first study would be continued. In the case of the other study, the motion did not set a date; it did not state that the study should be completed without interruption. We have had similar situations in the past, so relevant jurisprudence does exist. We can suspend a study we are conducting and decide which of the two studies is more important. We could say that the study with a deadline would become a priority. That can still be the committee's mandate.Mr. Chair, that's all I have to say about the date.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Yes, Monsieur Gourde.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1550)[Translation]I would like to introduce a motion to sit in camera, Mr. Chair.Committee businessIn cameraMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Okay. All in favour?JacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1550)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I call for a recorded division, please.Committee businessIn cameraMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]The motion is carried. You had to ask me before I got into it. I already called the vote. We're going to go in camera.Committee businessIn cameraYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstMatthewDubéChambly—Borduas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéChambly—BorduasNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé (Chambly—Borduas, NDP): (1550)[Translation]We haven't voted.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Yes, we did. Monsieur Godin.MatthewDubéChambly—BorduasYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1550)[Translation]Mr. Chair, you asked who agreed with the motion and those people voted. I called for a recorded division, and you said that, for a recorded division, I should have put in the request earlier, but you did not ask who was in favour of the motion.Committee businessMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English] I'm pretty sure I asked.Mr. Yvon Godin: No, you didn't. I cut you off before....The Chair: Okay. All opposed?Some hon. members: Opposed.(Motion agreed to)Committee businessIn cameraYvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/103YvonGodinYvon-GodinAcadie—BathurstNew Democratic Party CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/GodinYvon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Yvon Godin: (1550)[Translation]I voted against the motion. We have not yet begun the in camera debates, and the NDP has voted against the motion.[Proceedings continue in camera]Committee businessIn cameraMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Rodney Weston (Saint John, CPC)): (1105)[English]I'll call this meeting to order. I'd like to thank our officials for being with us again. I appreciate your patience yet again. This is the third attempt. Mr. Stringer said “three times lucky”, and let's hope he's right.Mr. Stringer, I understand that you have a brief opening statement, after which we'll proceed to questions. I know you're quite familiar with the practices of our committee, so I'll turn the floor over to you at this time.Fisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer (Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans): (1105)[English]Thank you very much. Thank you very much for inviting us. We're very pleased to be here to talk about the lobster fishery in Atlantic Canada and Quebec. It is our largest fishery by participation, as well as by exports and its economic contribution to Canada's fishery.We understand that the committee wanted to ask some questions around lobsters, specifically around the health of the stocks, and generally about lobster and, potentially, other issues. We're pleased to answer any and all questions to the best of our ability.I'm joined today by two of my colleagues from Fisheries and Oceans. On my left is Nadia Bouffard. Nadia is the director general for fisheries and aboriginal policy in the program policy sector. On my right is Adam Burns, the director of resource management in the Atlantic region in the ecosystems and fisheries management sector. I'm Kevin Stringer, the assistant deputy minister for ecosystems and oceans science. You have fisheries management, policy, and science here. So hopefully we can address the various questions.I will, as I said, make a few brief remarks about lobster, about the health of the fishery, and about what we know about the fishery. I'll start with some very basic facts that can provide a bit of grounding.There are many things that we do know about lobster and there are many things that we are studying still, which I'd be happy to talk about later on. But you do need to know a number of things.American lobster is unique to the northwest Atlantic Ocean. It occurs from southern Labrador to North Carolina. Some of the things we do know that are really important to help us manage this fishery are that mature lobsters make seasonal movements to shallow waters in the springtime and summer to moult, to reproduce and hatch eggs, and return to deeper waters in the fall and winter. These movements typically amount to a few kilometres. However, longer seasonal movements occur in the Gulf of Maine, the Bay of Fundy, and offshore regions in the Scotian Shelf amounting to tens or hundreds of kilometres. Fishing area 40 is considered to be a bit of an incubation ground. We have that closed and we believe that it actually helps populate some of the other fisheries. These movement patterns are affected by bottom topography, depth, water temperature, and other matters. They have two parts of their life cycle. Again, these are things that are crucial for us to help manage the fishery.First is a planktonic phase, which follows the hatching of eggs. It happens late May through September depending on where in Atlantic Canada. The larvae go through a free swimming period for three to 10 weeks—which is important, because they're not on the bottom at the beginning—depending on the environmental conditions, mostly the water temperature. It ends when they settle on the bottom. What is important to note is that natural mortality is highest during these first few weeks of the lobster's life due to predation and currents. The currents may carry the larvae to unfavourable habitats. So, predation, storms, climate change, and other things have an impact, particularly in the early stages of the lobster's life.Then there's the benthic phase. The newly settled lobster progresses through several stages before reaching adulthood of four to 10 years. It's usually eight years in most parts of Atlantic Canada. A lobster has to survive eight years to reach maturity and to the point where it is recruited into the fishery. That's a long period of time. Predation is highest when it's small. It mostly hides out and comes out more and more as it gets older and moults more. Natural mortality is high due to predation mostly when they first develop in the benthic phase and as they emerge as juveniles from their first shelters.I have just a couple of other points around this, again related to how we manage the fisheries. There's information to support the management of fisheries. Lobsters grow through moulting. They moult their shells. They do it multiple times. They grow as much as 12, 15, 16 per cent with different moults. They are strongly influenced by temperature, which is why they want to be in warm water for moulting because it's more likely to happen and there's going to be more growth. There are other things that influence it as well.(1110) Mating occurs just after females molt, between July and September in Atlantic Canada. The female lobster has an almost two-year gestation period. It extrudes eggs for approximately one year. The number of eggs produced by a female lobster increases with size, so we have some protection for larger females. That's why we have some maximum size limits, as well as minimum size limits. The eggs are carried in clutches on the underside of the female's abdomen, called a berried female, for the last 9 to 12 months. That's why we have protection for berried females as well.Now, for a little bit about the state of the stocks, how are the stocks doing in Atlantic Canada and Quebec?[Translation]In Atlantic Canada and Quebec, lobster fishing is usually managed through the control of inputs—such as the number of permits, gear restrictions and seasons. I want to point out the following exception: Nova Scotia offshore lobster fishing—in lobster fishing area 41—is managed on the basis of total allowable catches.In addition, landings currently constitute the primary parameter used to ensure the monitoring of the state of lobster resources and related trends. In lobster fishing areas of the Maritimes, Cape Breton and Fundy Bay regions, landings are increasing or stable—reaching record highs or nearly reaching them.[English]The landings are high in those areas and high in other areas as well. I'll speak to the other areas. The southern Gulf of the St. Lawrence LFAs, lobster fishing areas, which include P.E.I., New Brunswick, as well as the southern part of Gaspé and the Magdalen Islands in Quebec, also show stable or increased landings. The areas around P.E.I. and New Brunswick, in particular, have high abundance or are at near historical levels. Landings in the northern gulf have generally been stable since 2008, at a low level on the north shore of Quebec, and high abundance at Anticosti Island. However, areas 13 and 14, located on the west coast of Newfoundland, have shown a decline since 2008, albeit they have in fact increased in the last year.For the other lobster fishing areas around Newfoundland and Labrador, we've seen an increase in landings on the south coast since the late-nineties. However, the northeast coast landings, those in the Avalon, have been declining since the early-nineties, but the fishery has not been substantial in that area. As I mentioned before, the offshore Nova Scotia lobster fishery is the only lobster fishery in Canada managed with the total allowable catch. The current total allowable catch is 720 tonnes. It's been in place since 1985 and we believe the stock has been stable since 1999.Of note, as I mentioned already, is lobster fishing area 40, located off southwest Nova Scotia. It's closed to lobster fishing because it is known to be a spawning area, where large females congregate. The area was closed because of its potential conservation benefits. We believe it is in fact a bit of an incubation area for many of the fisheries, particularly in southwest Nova Scotia.Overall, the stocks are in good shape, and some would say “remarkably good” shape. We acknowledge that has created significant challenges in other areas, which are being dealt with by fishers. There are different views about why the lobster fishery has done as well as it has since the 1990s. It really has grown exponentially in some areas. The views generally come down to three or four different factors—three factors anyway. One is favourable environmental conditions, temperature in particular, but the second is lack of predation. We know that the predators of lobsters, particularly at a young age—cod, cusk, white hake, sculpin, and others—are not in great shape, so lack of predation we think is a factor. The other factor is the management controls that we've established. We've always had management controls, but they've actually increased significantly over the last number of years.(1115) I'll just touch on those management controls. There are three basic controls. The first is the specific season, meaning that you can only fish at certain times of the year. The second is limited entry, with only certain people licensed to do it. And the third is trap limits, with only x number of traps being allowed. In addition, we have rules for conservation in various fisheries. There is a minimum carapace size, which means you can't keep a lobster larger than a certain carapace size. There's a prohibition on landing egg-bearing females and v-notched females. We get the fishermen to put a v-notch on the tails of egg-bearing females so we can recognize them in the future.Some of them, as I said, have a maximum size, so we're protecting the larger females. There are vents to allow for the escape of sublegal sizes in the traps. And there are biodegradable traps, which are a new development that ensures the traps that are cut aren't catching fish forever.Those are things we've done that we think speak to why the stocks are in as good a shape as they are.We remain concerned and vigilant. The exploitation rate in some of these fisheries is high, but they continue to do well. We're concerned about that, and we continue to do research to better understand lobster. If you look at our science website, you will see studies that we've done in recent years, and the assessments of all the LFAs. We do those assessments regularly. They've all been done in the last year and, as I said, they mostly point to a healthy stock. We also do specific studies. We have specific peer-reviewed studies on predation, on bycatch, meaning other species caught in lobster traps; the impact of temperature; the potential impact of ocean acidification; utilization of habitat and preferred habitat; on stomach sampling to see the lobster prey; the impacts of pest and pathogen treatment on lobster; the impact of aquaculture facilities on lobster, and many, many other areas. We do much of this research with fishermen as partners, and we will continue to do that.There are many challenges in the lobster fishery, and we'd be pleased to talk about those today. But, overall, the health of the stocks at the moment is quite good. There is some concern about the exploitation rates in some of the areas, but the stocks are holding up and we believe that they will continue to do so. If you read the assessments, the immediate future looks quite good for lobster in terms of the stocks.I'll stop there. We would be happy to take questions.Atlantic CanadaCarapace sizeDepartment of Fisheries and OceansFisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasFisheries stocksLobstersNewfoundland and LabradorNova ScotiaProvince of QuebecResearch and researchersRodneyWestonSaint JohnRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Stringer. We'll move into our seven-minute round at this point, and we'll start with Mr. Kamp.KevinStringerRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25511RandyKampRandy-KampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/KampRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Kamp (Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, CPC): (1120)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, lady and gentlemen, for being with us today. I know it has taken a while to get this meeting to happen, so I appreciate your patience.Let me start with a two-part question and give you some time to answer. Then if I have time, I'll ask a couple more questions.We had a meeting with Geoff Irvine of the Lobster Council of Canada. There was a sense among most members on the committee that there was something that could be called a “crisis” in the lobster industry, primarily related to pricing but perhaps other matters as well.He said that the one thing the federal government could do would be to support the development of what he called a “levy system”, to fund promotion and structural reform efforts. Those were his words. In his view, because the federal government collects licence fees and has that jurisdiction over harvesters, if there were a way to have a surcharge or a levy on the licence fee, that could go towards a fund. The Lobster Council could use that fund to engage in marketing activities primarily, and perhaps other activities as well. He felt that would be very significant to getting them into a better place in the future.This is my two-part question. First, do you agree that there is an ongoing crisis, and if so, how would you characterize that crisis? Second, is this idea of a levy something that needs to be considered, or has the department considered it already? Are there some significant reasons that it's not possible? Would it require the User Fees Act and so on?Let me begin with that, if I could.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries stocksLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1120)[English]I'll ask Adam to speak to the issue of the first part of the question, which is whether there is a crisis and how we would characterize it, and Nadia can speak to the issue of a potential levy.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns (Director, Resource Management, Atlantic Region, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans): (1120)[English]Thanks, Mr. Kamp, and thanks to Kevin.What I would say about what is going on in the lobster fishery right now from an economic perspective—a price perspective and so on—is that the department is focused on working with harvesters throughout Atlantic Canada and Quebec to put in place measures that will help increase the economic prosperity of the fisheries in their areas.We're open to working with them in a number of ways, in a manner built upon industry's coming to the department with their ideas of how we should be moving forward. At the end of the day, it's their fishery and their enterprises that are impacted by the measures we put in place.We've been doing this for a number of years. We can look back to the Atlantic lobster sustainability measures program, which was very successful in reducing effort in the fishery throughout Atlantic Canada and in promoting significant improvements in sustainability in the fishing areas that participated in the program. There are lots of things that the department can point to as measures we have undertaken and steps we have made in working in partnership with the industry. There's no doubt that prices are low and there's no doubt that there are challenges, not just in this fishery but as a result of the global economy. We're very open to working with the industry to implement things that would benefit them and help them operate in the current global context.Department of Fisheries and OceansFisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries stocksLobstersKevinStringerRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25511RandyKampRandy-KampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/KampRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Kamp: (1120)[English]Do you characterize this as a crisis in the industry at the moment?Fisheries and fishersLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1120)[English]I don't think we have used the term “crisis” per se. I think that it's a challenging time with respect to price and market demand and market supply. Whether or not it's a crisis isn't as important, I guess I could say, as the fact that the department is working actively with the industry to address the challenges they are facing. We could put any sort of word that we wanted to what is going on. It's a challenging time, and we're focused on dealing with it.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25511RandyKampRandy-KampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/KampRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Kamp: (1120)[English]If supply is the big part of the problem, then that gets us to the second part of the question. They would like to develop new markets and so on, and to do that they need more money, according to him. The levy would help them, in his view. Is it possible or not?FeesFisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersAdamBurnsNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard (Director General, Fisheries and Aboriginal Policy, Program Policy Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans): (1125)[English]Before answering the specific question, I think it's important to note that the provinces and the federal government worked together to help establish the council. We provided some start-up funding to support the Lobster Council in the amount of $90,000 since 2009.We at Fisheries and Oceans Canada have been clear with the council that this was start-up funding, with a view to the council's working with its members—the lobster industry, on both the harvesting and the processing side—to come up with some mechanism for taxing their members and getting some funding for the organization.The issue of the levy itself is not a concept we have thoroughly reviewed, so my comments today are really preliminary views. The matter of collecting fees from members is really up to an organization and its members. Off the top of my head, there are a couple of ways you could secure that funding. You could either do it through contracts or agreements with your members or you could do it through legislation. The Lobster Council would need to seek some advice to determine the best way for it to proceed to get that membership due. It would seem impractical to go the contract or agreement route, given that there are 10,000 fishing enterprises across Atlantic Canada and Quebec. As far as I know, there is no federal legislation that enables the collection of the levy from the Lobster Council members to be provided to the Lobster Council. There certainly aren't any provisions in the Fisheries Act, under Fisheries and Oceans Canada, that will allow that kind of levy or fee.It's not immediately obvious either that this kind of levy would fit within the mandate and core role of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which is to manage and control fisheries. In fact, it may be more clearly linked to the provinces' roles with respect to marketing seafood across Canada and outside Canada.Having the government adopt legislation to collect those fees sounds a bit like a tax. If we were to look into this, we would need to look at it in that context.Department of Fisheries and OceansFeesFisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Thank you very much.Thank you, Mr. Kamp. Your time is up.Mr. Chisholm.NadiaBouffardRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71285RobertChisholmRobert-ChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisholmRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Chisholm (Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NDP): (1125)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.We're pleased to have officials here to talk with us, finally—through no fault of yours—and to speak with us a bit about an issue that's very important to the members of the committee, and certainly to me as a member of Parliament from Nova Scotia, as it relates to the current status of the lobster fishery. It's been another difficult spring, with a lot of things going on. It appears pretty obvious, and you've confirmed this, that the catch sizes not only continue to maintain but continue to grow. The problem appears to be related to price or supply and demand, whichever you want to put first. The bottom line is the price that the fishermen are getting. Undoubtedly the processors have similar complaints.Some would suggest that one part of this puzzle is the whole question of carapace size as it relates to conservation and as it relates to supply. Some of the different LFAs and associations are trying to deal with that issue themselves. As recently as about three weeks ago, I think it was LFA 26A or B that requested from the director general an immediate increase in order to get at some of that problem. That was turned down, for reasons that I guess made some sense, but it's an indication of how a majority of the fishermen believe a clear answer to the question of price is to get at the issue of supply and quality. I want to ask for your comments on that, and also on another point. It's been suggested by some in the industry that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has the authority to increase carapace size, taking into consideration a majority position within the industry. The question has been asked, would you consider increasing the carapace size by two millimetres in 2014? Carapace sizeFisheries and fishersLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1130)[English]Let me start, and then I'll ask Adam to make further comment on the specifics. I'll start by talking about carapace size and the department's concern, from a conservation perspective, in ensuring that there's sufficient lobster for the future. We have a concept called “SOM50”, which stands for “size at the onset of maturity”. We do science work that determines at what size a female lobster is mature on average, and 50% of the females are mature at a certain size. That's our primary issue regarding carapace size. We set a carapace-size estimate. It's different in different parts of the fishery, but it ranges from the low seventies in terms of centimetres to around 100. The advice we provide to fisheries management is that it would be wise to allow at least 50% of the females to get to a mature state so that we're providing eggs for future fisheries. That's sort of a bottom line with respect to fisheries management. Then, if you want to go higher, it's largely a decision about markets and about industry: what the markets want, fishing to the market, etc. So we start with a conservation piece, and then we deal with industry generally in terms of what the wants and needs are.I'll ask Adam to speak to that.Carapace sizeFisheries and fishersLobstersRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1130)[English]Thanks.That's absolutely right. In terms of reaching an agreement amongst industry to increase the carapace size, the department's very open to the participants of the fishery in the various areas. If they come together with a desire to increase the minimum carapace size for those economic reasons, we're very open to that. In the particular case of LFA 26B, I believe it was, there wasn't consent of all of the harvesters in that LFA. I believe that, combined with the fact that it was mid-season, did play a role in the decision in the region to not go forward with that carapace-size increase mid-season.Carapace sizeFisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71285RobertChisholmRobert-ChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisholmRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Chisholm: (1130)[English]So it has to be all of them?Fisheries and fishersLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1130)[English]Certainly we're looking for strong consent. I wouldn't say it's written anywhere that it has to be all of them.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71285RobertChisholmRobert-ChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisholmRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Chisholm: (1130)[English]It doesn't work that way here.Fisheries and fishersLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1130)[English] I realize that, but in this particular case, all I can tell you is that those, I think, were the factors that were at play. We're very open, as a department, to harvesters coming together and presenting the department with a request to increase the minimum carapace size in their area. In the case of LFA 26B, the minimum carapace size is at or above SOM50 already.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71285RobertChisholmRobert-ChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisholmRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Chisholm: (1130)[English]If I can just focus on that point a little bit, Mr. Burns—because it does get at how we're ever going to get some standardization in the 26B region—I believe that more than 90% of fishermen who voted, voted in favour of an increase in carapace size. Where I come from, that's huge. In this place and other democratic organizations, the majority rules.Carapace sizeFisheries and fishersLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1135)[English]I think that the communication from the region to the harvesters in that area was that it was more appropriate for this discussion to occur at the start of the fishing season. Harvesters make their plans for how the fishery will unfold. They make their plans related to where they'll be selling their lobsters and so on and so forth. But certainly, I agree with you that 90% is a lot of people. That's certainly a discussion they'll be having in advance of the 2014 season, as you mentioned.Carapace sizeFisheries and fishersLobstersRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chisholm.Mr. Allen.AdamBurnsMikeAllenTobique—Mactaquac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30892MikeAllenMike-AllenTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AllenMike_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Allen (Tobique—Mactaquac, CPC): (1135)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you to our witnesses for being here.Ms. Bouffard, I just want to follow up on one of the questions. Mr. Kamp was talking about the levy. Would that require legislative change, such as changing the User Fees Act or anything, if the levy were actually introduced?FeesFisheries and fishersLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1135)[English]I was going to say that I'm not a lawyer. I am a lawyer, but I'm not a lawyer in the federal government.FeesFisheries and fishersLobstersMikeAllenTobique—MactaquacMikeAllenTobique—Mactaquac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30892MikeAllenMike-AllenTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AllenMike_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Allen: (1135)[English]Neither am I.Fisheries and fishersLobstersNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1135)[English]More clearly, we've not done a full assessment of this, so I can't give you a straight answer as to whether it would require an amendment. Clearly, when you look at the Fisheries Act, currently there is no authority to enable that levy.FeesFisheries and fishersLobstersMikeAllenTobique—MactaquacMikeAllenTobique—Mactaquac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30892MikeAllenMike-AllenTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AllenMike_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Allen: (1135)[English]Okay, thank you.Mr. Burns, you talked about the Atlantic lobster sustainability measures being affected in terms of reducing effort, but at the same time the commentary in the presentation was that our landings are increasing to being stable. In spite of the licence buyback, we still seem to be looking at a supply situation that is going up. Is that because of the nature and the structure of the fishing industry? Is it because of better boats or bigger boats? What's driving the supply side of that?Fisheries and fishersFisheries stocksFishing boatsLobstersNadiaBouffardAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1135)[English]Certainly there is an increase in the size of vessels in some areas. The way that the lobster fishery is currently managed is by effort-based management, so the department limits the fishing season and the number of traps, as well as taking some measures around the specifics of the trap itself. It is still possible for a harvester—certainly in a situation of high abundance of lobster in the fishery especially—to have similar or even higher landings than in previous years even if they're using fewer traps. In the current management approach I think that is in fact what is going on. The abundance of lobsters is resulting in a higher catch per unit of effort in the fishery and, therefore, the landings are staying the same or increasing as a result. Fisheries and fishersFisheries stocksFishing boatsLobstersMikeAllenTobique—MactaquacKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1135)[English]Regarding that catch per unit of effort, there are two things we measure as a surrogate for abundance: one is landings and the other is catch per unit of effort. What we are seeing on average is more lobster in the same number of traps. So they're catching more lobster. But we're also seeing, as Adam said, more powerful boats, which are getting out there faster to the grounds. You take those things together and you are seeing a significant increase in effort in some areas.Fisheries and fishersFisheries stocksFishing boatsLobstersAdamBurnsMikeAllenTobique—Mactaquac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30892MikeAllenMike-AllenTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AllenMike_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Allen: (1135)[English]That leads me to my next question. Has the department looked at managing the fishery any differently? Could the supply and demand be managed by staggering landings? Could this be done so you wouldn't end up with gluts on the market, or what we had last year with Maine competing with New Brunswick?Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1135)[English]We have a number of management measures in place. Adam can speak a little bit about how we might manage it differently, or what we've looked at.I will mention one thing, though, and it is the application of the precautionary approach. We have that as an objective for all of our fisheries. It's particularly tricky in lobster because there isn't a total allowable catch. But we have some surrogates. We've established some levels to see whether a fishery is in the healthy zone, the cautious zone, or the critical zone. We're determining it in most areas based on a median from the years 1985 to 2009, or maybe it's 1995 to 2009. Whatever the median is, we have an objective. The healthy zone is 80% of that or more, cautious is between 40% and 80%. As long as it's in the healthy zone, we're comfortable with the current management measures. Most of them are in the healthy zone. If you get into the cautious zone, that's when you start looking at some different approaches. So right now that's one that we're trying to apply in the lobster fisheries to give us a signal of when we have to move the dial on some of those things from a conservation perspective.Adam.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersMikeAllenTobique—MactaquacAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1140)[English]As to the notion of fishing to market, meeting market demand as opposed to exceeding it, there are a number of tools that I think industry could avail themselves of that the department could play a role in. There are also some tools that industry is in fact availing themselves of that don't really involve the department.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersKevinStringerMikeAllenTobique—Mactaquac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30892MikeAllenMike-AllenTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AllenMike_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Allen: (1140)[English]Could you be more specific?Fisheries and fishersLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1140)[English]In respect of departmental measures—and we've indicated an openness to looking at changes to these—the first is season dates. The fishery doesn't open at the same time across Atlantic Canada and Quebec. It is already staggered. Part of the reason for the staggering is to spread out the supply of lobster. Another big part of the reason is to match the fishery with an appropriate time related to the biology of the stocks in those areas. That's one measure that spreads out the catch across most of the year.Other measures include looking at differences from the way we currently manage, which is a limit on the number of traps. We've indicated our openness to considering other approaches, which include boat quotas or assigning specific landings to individual harvesters. But those changes wouldn't be typical for the department to bring in without a specific request from the industry. As to things the industry can do, this year we've seen a number of instances where buyers, processors, and the industry have worked together to set daily catch limits. These reflect how much lobster they'll buy per harvester in order to slow the flow of lobster out of the water, into the processing plants, and on to market. So there are some mechanisms available to industry that don't involve the department. Then there are others that would require some intervention by the department. We're open to any of those interventions.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasLobstersMikeAllenTobique—MactaquacMikeAllenTobique—Mactaquac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30892MikeAllenMike-AllenTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AllenMike_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Allen: (1140)[English]Have these people approached you about things like boat quotas?Fisheries and fishersFisheries quotasFishing boatsLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1140)[English]I'm not aware of any to date that have come with a consensus that they'd like to move in that direction, but it's something that I think more and more folks are starting to at least talk about.Fisheries and fishersFisheries quotasFishing boatsLobstersMikeAllenTobique—MactaquacRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English]Thank you, Mr. Allen.Mr. Easter.AdamBurnsWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): (1140)[English]Thank you, folks.It's nice to sit in at a fisheries committee for a meeting. I think it's fair to say that the conservation measures implemented as long ago as 15 years have been successful in the lobster fishery, if not almost too successful from a fisherman's point of view, in terms of pricing at the moment.I’m probably the only one around this committee who remembers the escape mechanisms, nicknamed the Mifflin spawn scraper due to the opposition to Fisheries Minister Mifflin’s putting in those escape mechanisms. Fishermen were strongly opposed at the time, but now they think they're one of the best things ever invented.Adam, to your comments on whether there is a crisis, I would say there certainly is at the fishermen's level. I met with a fisherman on Saturday, an established fisherman who owes absolutely no money on his boat’s gear. He said he was able to pay the fuel and pay his labour bill, but he doesn't expect to have money left over for his own labour—there's still a week left—or if he had debt, to pay it.One of his colleagues is a young guy who paid $340,000 for a fishing boat last year. I can tell you that when the banker comes calling, asking that young fisherman…there's a very big crisis. So I want to establish that there is a crisis, and a very serious one, on the water. Isn't the real problem this year one of too many lobsters and not enough processing capacity, and a lack of market? Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1145)[English]Let me try that.My first comment is that this is not a unique crisis for this year. We've seen over many years the supply glut issues of the lobster fishery. You've heard from the Lobster Council, which is looking at diagnosing the issues and trying to find some solutions. I don't think there's a single answer to the problem, and so I don't think there's a magic solution to it either.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Wayne Easter: (1145)[English]But, Nadia, the situation this year is this. When a crisis was evident from the beginning, we have seen the federal government, instead of decreasing costs to fishermen, downloading costs to them—including gear tag charges, lack of observers. There is an endless downloading of costs by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, by the Government of Canada, through budget cuts and everything else. These are additional costs to fishermen when they can least afford them. You heard me talk about this 15 years ago. Why is the federal government not trying to establish some safety nets in the fishery as we have for farmers, such as AgriStability and AgriInvest? In the good years, you set money aside in some programs that are shared with government to help you in a financial crisis. You know that in the natural resource sector you're going to have boom and bust, supply and demand, so how come, after all this time, there is no safety net program to protect the income of fishermen and their families when you have a crisis such as this? Now we're against the wall, and some people are likely going to go broke.The second area I think the federal government has a responsibility in is not just Canadian lobster, but it's also Maine. Are there any discussions taking place with the Americans on the cross-border issue of how we feed the market rather than dump into the market? Is there anything happening in those areas? Canada-United States relationsFisheries and fishersFisheries policyGovernment assistanceLobster Council of CanadaLobstersMaineNadiaBouffardAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1145)[English]As to your first question, the government certainly has made some investments recently. I referenced the Atlantic lobster sustainability measures program, which has put $50 million into the Atlantic Canadian lobster industry. It has reduced the number of licences in Atlantic Canada by almost 600 and taken 200,000 traps out of the water. That has played a significant role, and notwithstanding the crisis of the current state of the global economy and specific to the fishery, it certainly has improved the situation and was very successful in what it set out to do. It's really laid the groundwork for the industry to continue to move forward and continue to try to improve the economic situation.Our officials in the regions have been working closely with harvesters, trying to identify the best and most appropriate way forward in their fishing areas to even out the supply, to better match supply to market demand and, therefore, to try to influence the price the markets are willing to pay for the available supply. It's an age-old supply-demand impact on price that is not unique to the fishery, let alone the lobster fishery.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyGovernment assistanceLobstersWayneEasterHon.MalpequeKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1145)[English]I would just add one point, and then I'll ask Nadia to speak to the U.S. issue.In your assessment, isn't that really the issue? The one thing, if we look at what Geoff Irvine said to this committee, that has made an enormous difference is the Canadian dollar in this challenge, and so we don't have the levers to address these things.We do think that the Lobster Council is doing enormously important work that will address some of these things around marketing and quality, which will help to move these things forward. We've been participating with them on those issues.I agree with Nadia that there are no simple solutions—but we are working on a set of them.Nadia, on the international issue....Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobster Council of CanadaLobstersAdamBurnsNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1150)[English]This may not fully respond to your question, but I note that this industry, both on the processing and harvesting sides, is really a north-south fishery, a north-south industry, and that there is a lot of integration. There's a lot of dialogue taking place at the harvesting level, as well as the processing level, related to the issues, and the supply and demand particularly.Yes, there is dialogue. There are regular dialogues as well at the government level, but it's mostly at the industry level.Canada-United States relationsFisheries and fishersLobstersMaineKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1150)[English]It's at the science level as well. When you look at some of the assessments that we've done and at the processes we've had, we invite Maine and the University of Maine scientists to participate with us. We have a lot in common, in terms of challenges.Canada-United States relationsFisheries and fishersLobstersMaineNadiaBouffardRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Chisholm. We'll move to the five-minute round.KevinStringerRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71285RobertChisholmRobert-ChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisholmRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Chisholm: (1150)[English]Thank you.I want to get back to the role of DFO. I would agree that it's not this year's crisis, it's not a crisis just for this year, but a crisis that's been here for a bit of time.But I do think DFO has a role to play, not just in management as it relates to conservation, but also in the whole role of marketing and management in the business model. I say that because DFO does make some important decisions that affect the business model. My colleague just mentioned all the downloading that's happened over the last couple of years, in terms of picking up the costs of tags, licensing, observers, and increasingly science. These costs are downloaded onto the harvesters. The harvesters even came together as one and asked the minister to give them a year as a transition period, and the department wouldn't hear anything of that.You're already making decisions that are affecting the business model. Why are you not more involved in the industry's attempt to find answers to the low prices? Whether it be carapace size, or assisting the Lobster Council trying to access a levy, just as the State of Maine collects a levy for its fishery and its lobster fishermen, it seems to me that there's more the Department of Fisheries and Oceans could be doing in a positive, constructive way, as it relates to the current problems of pricing, than it is.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1150)[English]I'll start. Certainly in terms of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' role with respect to the fisheries, as we've said in the past our primary focus, the bottom-line focus, needs to be on ensuring that the resource is there now and for the future.That said, if you look at our prime objectives, they do speak to there being economically prosperous maritime sectors. We are concerned to ensure that the fishery is economically prosperous, and we do what we can.Adam already spoke to the issue around working with industry and ensuring that we've got some consensus from industry at a timely point to be able to make adjustments—and we have made adjustments that speak to market. The one thing I do want to touch on—and I'll ask Nadia to speak to it—is our role in marketing. I will say first of all that we are engaged with the council on all of these things. What's neat about the Lobster Council is that it brings together the harvesters, processors, distributors, buyers, and retailers. It also brings together the provincial governments and the federal government. We are all at the table talking about these challenges. It is a unique forum to be able to do that.In terms of marketing, and I think—Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71285RobertChisholmRobert-ChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisholmRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Chisholm: (1150)[English]They don't have the resources, Kevin. Sorry to interrupt you, but they don't have the resources to carry out what it is they need to do.Fisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1150)[English]As Nadia pointed out, we have provided resources and we have talked to them about becoming self-funding, and they've gone a long way toward addressing the self-funding issues. But we do also have another department that is responsible for the marketing side of things, the Department of Agriculture. I'll ask Nadia to speak a little bit to that responsibility. Plus they've done a lot of work with the council as well.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1155)[English]Yes, the issues at stake can involve the role and the responsibility of different people on the value chain. The governments are one, and DFO is one, as are the industry—both on the processing and the harvesting sides—and the distributors, and so on. Everybody can play a role. I said there was no magic bullet or magic solution to this since you really need to look at this in a comprehensive way and look at the roles and responsibilities across the value chain. As Adam pointed out, Fisheries and Oceans Canada has put in place measures that have influenced and helped in terms of the seasons, and closures to address the supply and glut issues.Agriculture Canada has a role with respect to food, market access, and food marketing. Since the mid-1990s, that has included seafood. So they have a role and they also sit around the table with the lobster industry together with the Lobster Council. Everybody sitting across that seafood value chain can play a role—but within the scope of their responsibilities. So we're not saying that we can't do anything as a department, but we do have a role and mandate, as Kevin pointed out.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersKevinStringerRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chisholm.Ms. Davidson.NadiaBouffardPatriciaDavidsonSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35701PatriciaDavidsonPatricia-DavidsonSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/DavidsonPatricia_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Patricia Davidson (Sarnia—Lambton, CPC): (1155)[English]Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks for being here with us again today. It's nice to finally hear your presentation. I found it very interesting. I think what you've said has been fairly positive when talking about the state of the industry and the way it is today, with the stable or increased landings. I believe you said that the immediate future was looking quite good for the lobster stock.You also talked about how the lobster grows through the moulting process and how that was highly influenced by temperature. We know there are changing patterns with water temperatures along the east coast. Do you see any impact on the health of the lobster stock because of that? If you do, what would that be? We have heard lots about infectious diseases and viruses in fish species. Is there a concern about those with lobster? Also, is there any concern about the various food resources that would be needed to maintain the lobster stock?Animal healthFisheries and fishersFisheries stocksLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1155)[English]In terms of temperature, I think the standard view is that one of the reasons lobster has done as well as it has is the current temperature regime in the Atlantic. That's actually had a positive impact. But things are changing more rapidly than they had before, and studies are ongoing on temperature and acidification. There are some very interesting studies on acidification. If it continues at the rate we think it might be happening, that will have an impact on how often they molt and how much they grow. We've done some tests in pools, simulated to see what the impact would be. Those are things that we do want to watch very carefully.On the issue of lobster disease, animal health is a big issue, but we have not seen evidence of significant lobster disease in Canada. It is an issue that we need to watch carefully, particularly in pounding operations where they congregate in small areas.It's not known, but is not considered to be excessive. It is something that we saw in some parts of the U.S. So it's something we're keeping a watch on, but it's not currently a big issue for us.Animal healthFisheries and fishersFisheries stocksLobstersPatriciaDavidsonSarnia—LambtonPatriciaDavidsonSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35701PatriciaDavidsonPatricia-DavidsonSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/DavidsonPatricia_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Patricia Davidson: (1155)[English]When you talk about keeping an eye on the impact of acidification because it could make difference, is that a negative impact causing the molting process to be longer or...?Fisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1155)[English]As I've read, my recollection is that it would take a longer period between molts and that growth is less substantial. Now, that was in a very protected, small sample. We don't know exactly what would happen in ocean conditions. But I think the studies we've seen have asked about the potential projections for the ocean in 100 years, and therefore we'll have a sense of what it's going to be like at that time, and as we go forward. So there are challenges around acidification and the impacts around it. Fisheries and fishersLobstersPatriciaDavidsonSarnia—LambtonPatriciaDavidsonSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35701PatriciaDavidsonPatricia-DavidsonSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/DavidsonPatricia_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Patricia Davidson: (1200)[English]Given the fact there are so many different jurisdictional responsibilities when it comes to the lobster industry, the federal government being one of them and, of course, provincial governments and the industry itself, what do you see as the single most important thing the federal government can do, if anything, to assist in this issue of market pricing?Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersPrice determinationKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1200)[English]I'll ask Adam to speak to what we could do in terms of market pricing. What I would say is that the bottom line is to ensure that the stocks are there so that we can continue to have this discussion, as opposed to the alternative discussion, which wouldn't be quite as good.But in terms of the specific question, Adam, can you speak to it?Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersPrice determinationPatriciaDavidsonSarnia—LambtonAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1200)[English]At the end of the day, the price the market is willing to pay is directly linked to the demand for the product and the available supply. So the main lever that DFO would have any sort of control over would relate to the supply, whether that's working with industry.... Again, these are all things that we would want to work collaboratively with industry on. These aren't things that we would want to be in a position of imposing.Changes to seasons, in some instances, may be of some help to further spread out the supply of lobster. Changes in carapace size, and also looking at other ways that we manage the fishery, like boat quotas, would allow harvesters to better plan and align their catches with market demand than with the competitive approach we have now.As I mentioned before, there are some other levers available to industry that DFO doesn't have to play a direct role in, wherein, as we've seen this spring, even buyers have limited the amount they will purchase from individual harvesters on any given day to reduce the amount of lobster coming out of the water and heading to market. As a result, there is a reduced supply, which has an impact on the price the market is willing to pay.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersPrice determinationKevinStringerRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Donnelly.AdamBurnsFinDonnellyNew Westminster—Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63592FinDonnellyFin-DonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DonnellyFin_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Fin Donnelly (New Westminster—Coquitlam, NDP): (1200)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We've had some interesting questions so far. I guess there are maybe two questions I would add to this discussion about markets. There's been a note by some European consumers about humanely treated lobster. I'm wondering if you could comment on that.Where I'm going with this is the question of developing niche markets and whether there is any value-added role that either the DFO or, obviously, the provincial governments or industry itself could play in that through the council.Animal rights and welfareFisheries and fishersLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1200)[English] I'm not sure I heard the last part of your question, but I'll start answering the first and maybe we can go from there.There is a small but growing issue, mostly in northern Europe, or concern with respect to how lobsters are handled and how they're killed in the process of processing. It has to do with the humane treatment of lobsters. This has resulted in some closures of certain markets, and I'm trying to remember the countries. I'm not an expert in terms of exports, nor is DFO, for that matter, but I believe it was north—Animal rights and welfareFisheries and fishersLobstersFinDonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamFinDonnellyNew Westminster—Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63592FinDonnellyFin-DonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DonnellyFin_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Fin Donnelly: (1200)[English]Are we doing anything in response to that?Fisheries and fishersLobstersNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1200)[English]Yes, there have been a lot of activities, jointly with the industry, the processors, officials from Foreign Affairs and International Trade, as well as Agriculture Canada. They have met with the buyers and retailers, who are questioning the practices used in Canada with lobsters, trying to demonstrate and provide more information and clarity on how things are being handled. Technology is being developed by the industry and processors to address some of those issues.The industry is best placed to give you the details on this but, for instance, they're coming up with processes to lodge individual lobsters in cages to avoid lobsters being stacked up all together, and having a water funnel through these cages, so they're continuously being fed with and living through oxygenated water. I don't know the details of this technology, but I know these things are being developed by the industry, as they should be, to meet standards for good quality products and market demand.Animal rights and welfareFisheries and fishersLobstersFinDonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamFinDonnellyNew Westminster—Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63592FinDonnellyFin-DonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DonnellyFin_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Fin Donnelly: (1205)[English]Is there any role that DFO can play in assisting with developing niche markets or adding value to certain products? We've already talked about supply and demand.Fisheries and fishersLobstersNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1205)[English]That role actually belongs to industry but also Agriculture Canada. I spoke about their role on market access and marketing and they do have programs to assist in that respect.Fisheries and fishersLobstersFinDonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamFinDonnellyNew Westminster—Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63592FinDonnellyFin-DonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DonnellyFin_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Fin Donnelly: (1205)[English]If I have some time, my last question is for Kevin. You mentioned incubation areas. Could you talk a little bit more about the role of incubation areas, not just in the lobster fishery but overall? How successful is that?Fisheries and fishersFisheries stocksLobstersNadiaBouffardKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1205)[English]It's area 40. There are lobster areas across Atlantic Canada. There are a grand total of 41. We probably should have brought a map that shows the areas, but just off southwest Nova Scotia, there's an area—it's not huge—called area 40. Of all 41 lobster fishing areas, I believe it's the only one that is not actually open to fishing. That's because we have found there are a large number of large egg-bearing females in that area. When I said they mostly go from warm water to cold water and back, it's a matter of a couple of kilometres. This is the area where it's a matter of tens or hundreds of kilometres. It's an area where we believe eggs are hatched and there's drifting in-shore. So it's actually feeding area 34, area 35, and potentially area 33, etc.It has become what we call, in the vernacular, an incubation area. We believe it's having an effect, so we have kept that as a closed area. Fisheries and fishersFisheries stocksLobstersFinDonnellyNew Westminster—CoquitlamRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]Mr. Sopuck.KevinStringerRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck (Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, CPC): (1205)[English]Was there ever a time when lobster stocks collapsed, and if so, what was done to rebuild the stocks?Fisheries and fishersFisheries stocksLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1205)[English] I don't know the answer to that. I know that we've definitely had significant ups and downs. If you look back at history, I don't remember exactly when, but about 100 years ago it fell off. What we don't know is whether the people stopped fishing it or whatever. We could get you more detail on that.And we are concerned. When you see this kind of an exponential growth, there is a concern about a precipitous decline. We are concerned about that. We're concerned about level of effort. We're concerned about the exploitation rate. The exploitation rate is such that of the legally available lobster in this instance, in some areas we're taking 60% and in others as high as 80% of the legally available lobster. Therefore, there's a small number that's able to populate for the future. Hence, the application of the precautionary approach in ensuring that we stay in the healthy zone and our taking more action when we get into the healthy zone. But you're right about looking at history. Recent history doesn't help us. Going further back, even further than Adam can go back, is something that we probably should be looking at doping and seeing what actually worked. They didn't have the management measures in place in those times that we now have.Fisheries and fishersFisheries stocksLobstersRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck: (1205)[English]I think that's a remarkable record, because fish stocks can collapse and rebound. We had that incredible resurgence of sockeye salmon in 2010 in the Fraser after a decade of low fish numbers, so I find it remarkable that the department really doesn't have a record of any time when the stocks collapsed.Fisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1205)[English]I wouldn't say that. We'll check to see if that's the case. We've certainly had ups and downs.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck: (1210)[English]Right.Fisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1210)[English]You talked about a precipitous decrease.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck: (1210)[English]What kind of monitoring of the wild stocks does the department do?Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries stocksLobstersResearch and researchersKevinStringerAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1210)[English]In terms of monitoring the stocks, one of the key indicators from a fisheries management perspective would relate to the catch per unit of effort and landing. We have that reporting coming from the wharf as the fishing season unfolds. In fairly real time we're getting that information, looking at the landings and comparing those to previous years. As Kevin referenced, in recent years certainly, the indications have typically been very positive in terms of the landings, such that it in fact contributes to some of the other concerns the committee has expressed today. In terms of a longer-term science program, I think Kevin would speak to that.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries stocksLobstersResearch and researchersRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1210)[English]We have a number of things that we use. We go with landing slips, and then there are mandatory log books and we ask people to record what they're catching. I'll highlight one other thing, which we do with the FSRS, the Fishermen Scientist Research Society. We provide a number of fish—I think it's 180 or something like that across Atlantic Canada—with two to five extra traps each, and we make those different types of traps so they capture everything. We can actually look to see how many smaller lobster there are. We do all kinds of tests on them: we tag them and check the eggs, the gender, the length, the number of V-notches, etc. That has actually been enormously useful, because the challenge with only working with the commercial fishermen is that you only get the legal sized lobsters. That tells you what that subset is, but now we have this other piece that gives us a broader sense.Also, we do vessel-based surveys in a number of areas that catch lobster as bycatch, and we use that information as well. So we do have information coming from a number of sources as well as some of the pure research.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries stocksLobstersResearch and researchersAdamBurnsRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck: (1210)[English]This strikes me as a remarkably easy species to manage compared to open-ocean pelagic fish. I think that's one of the reasons that they're doing so well. Could you expand more on what affects year-class strength in lobsters? They do fluctuate, you pointed out, but what's the guessing as to what causes those fluctuations?Fisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1210)[English]That's a good question. What we're seeing right now is, year after year, year-class strengths. We're actually seeing good recruitment every single year and, in fact, the fishery depends on it. If you're actually taking out 60% or 70% of the legally available fish and the fish that can actually reproduce themselves, you need to have good recruitment. As I said, we believe that the main impacts are predation, which is low, the environmental conditions—water temperature, etc. A storm may have an impact. There's that three to ten-week period when their larvae are drifting. If there's a storm and they drift somewhere, that will have an impact eight years down the road when these recruit into the fishery. Changing currents could take them in a different direction and land them in a different spot. Those types of things could have an impact eight years later on what the actual fishery would then be. So it's predation, environmental conditions, etc.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Easter.KevinStringerWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Wayne Easter: (1210)[English]I want to come back to the situation in oversupply and how it relates to or involves Maine as well. Are there any cross-border discussions happening to look at how to manage supply? I'm a little worried by some of the things you have said. They kind of lead me to believe that you may be leaning towards a quota system. I think in your own words, Kevin, you indicated that there hasn't been a precipitous decline in lobsters that you know of, and that has been with the effort fishery. I know there's a tendency towards DFO management by DFO management, because it would make it easier for them if there was a quota system, but the effort fishery has worked well in lobsters. It's one of the most healthy fish stocks out there. So the effort fishery has worked out. Our problem isn't conservation at the moment. Our problem is oversupply. To go to a quota system is not necessarily going to solve that problem.Have any discussions taken place on the cross-border issues—because we can't do it alone in Canada, I'll admit that—to look at somehow managing supply to feed the market?Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1215)[English]I'll start with what you raised as part of this, the issue of a quota system. We've seen—you know this—from time to time recommendations. The last FRCC report actually recommended, I think it was in 2007, that we move to a quota system.There's not a lot of love for that in the inshore fishing industry.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasLobstersWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Wayne Easter: (1215)[English]That's for sure.Fisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1215)[English]You've seen ministers say, look, we're going to work with fishermen, and as you've heard Adam say here, we're interested in working with fishermen in terms of what they want to do. Currently the fisheries are in a healthy status, as we've said, so you know, hopefully...and I think we haven't heard much about going to quota systems, I would say, recently.I don't know if my colleagues know anything about discussions with Maine.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasLobstersWayneEasterHon.MalpequeAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1215)[English]The Maritimes region of DFO has regular interactions with officials in the state of Maine. I think one of the issues with lobster is that it is fairly sedentary. The typical interactions with Maine would relate more to discussions around conservation, but as you say, conservation isn't the main issue in this case. I'm not aware of whether there have been any discussions related to dealing with supply, but that doesn't mean they haven't happened.To reinforce what Kevin said about boat quotas or other mechanisms—changes to season, changes to carapace size or any of the others—because of the health of the stock there isn't a strong conservation argument to be made to implement any of those types of management measures.It may seem somewhat frustrating, but that's why the department's approach is very much one of working with industry to come to a consensus on a way forward. It's because the interventions that would occur would primarily be focused on the economics side. But it's their industry, and it really needs to be something that they come to us with.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasLobstersKevinStringerWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Wayne Easter: (1215)[English]I know it's likely well known around this table, Mr. Chair, that carapace size increase is a little bit of a sensitive issue for fishermen where I come from. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are a little bit more prone to increasing carapace size than we are, because we do have a canner market, which is the smaller lobsters.From a federal government perspective, have any discussions been held or is anything taking place in terms of looking at further processing capacity, further marketing, into Asia or Japan? I'm on the trade committee, and I know we've been looking at some of those issues. There's certainly an opportunity in China. There have been trade delegations go to China to promote sales of seafood, but the market certainly hasn't opened up to the extent of taking the surpluses yet.What's happening there from Fisheries and Oceans Canada's perspective?Fisheries and fishersLobstersMarket accessAdamBurnsNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1215)[English]The role of market access and marketing is really with Agriculture Canada, so the information that I would give you would be very general. They would be best placed to give it to you.I know that Agriculture—Fisheries and fishersLobstersMarket accessWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Wayne Easter: (1215)[English] I don't want to interrupt you, Nadia, but then you can tell them, based on this meeting, that we think they should get off their butt and do a little more marketing, and get it done. Fisheries and fishersLobstersMarket accessNadiaBouffardRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Easter.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1215)[English]I understand that Agriculture Canada has provided funding in the past to the lobster industry—through the Fisheries Council of Canada, prior to the creation of the Lobster Council of Canada—to do promotional work, in China in particular and some of the new markets. Through some of my travels, I certainly have seen an increase in Canadian lobster in those markets. But I think they would be best placed to give you the details of that funding and that information.Fisheries and fishersLobstersMarket accessRodneyWestonSaint JohnRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Chisholm.NadiaBouffardRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71285RobertChisholmRobert-ChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ChisholmRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Chisholm: (1220)[English]On that last point, I think what we heard in a very polite way from the Lobster Council was that Agriculture Canada has done absolutely nothing. It has been non-existent; it has not done the job. I'll ask this question and then continue with my second one.When the Lobster Council of Canada appeared before us, they suggested a levy—a tax and licensing fee—for lobsters. They talked about having submitted a request for it to DFO. Is this possible? When you were asked originally about the Lobster Council's being able to initiate a levy, you seemed to say that you hadn't really thought about the possibilities. I'm a bit concerned, because certainly this is something the Lobster Council said they have been pursuing for some time.Let me leave that question with you, and let me make this point. On the whole question of dealing with the industry, dealing with harvesters and so on, Mr. Burns, you said on a couple of occasions that you are always willing to listen to the industry, whether it be on carapace size or on other measures that can be taken to improve the business model.I have to say a couple of things. One is that the department wasn't particularly responsive last year. It was an historic fact that the industry as a whole came together and all asked for the same thing: a year for transition in the move to download the cost for tagging and for licensing. They got the cold shoulder. That's point number one.Number two, they continued to plead their case for an increase in carapace size, which not only is a conservation measure but also a question of improving their market size. As recently as a few weeks ago, with an Area 26B vote of more than 90%, you turned them down. When you say that you are open to their coming forward, I'm concerned that you be serious about it. What is it going to take, on the economic side and in terms of the downloading of costs? It was a unified position; in terms of one LFA there was a huge majority that supported a particular position. What is it going to take to get an increase in carapace size or to get any of these measures that the industry is saying they want you to bring forward? They want some help. This is a problem that exists in the Atlantic provinces and in eastern Quebec. DFO needs to be a player in this. The industry would like to see you be more involved, not just on the conservation side but in actually working with the industry to find some solutions to these problems. Your silence is deafening, when it comes to the current situation surrounding price.So there are two issues. One is on the levy, with the Lobster Council of Canada, and on the fact that Agriculture Canada is nowhere on this; the second is about how serious you are about coming up with some solutions, hand in hand with the industry.Carapace sizeFisheries and fishersLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1220)[English]I'll start with your second question and then Nadia will answer the first one related to the Lobster Council.We're very willing to work with industry, and I can point to a couple of examples this year where carapace prices have increased. For example, in LFA 23—albeit I realize it's not the LFA that you were asking about—there was an issue that we worked through for a number of years with the industry stakeholders who participate in the fishery. In LFA 23 there are four subcomponents and each one is linked to the other. The net result of the work we've undertaken over the past while has been an increase in the carapace size there this year and going forward. In LFA 26, we're certainly aware of the request in 26B. It's something the region will be working closely on with the folks in that area. They'll be looking at implementing something for next year if there's an appropriate consensus. I don't think that we need to debate what level that needs to be. I think that's something the region will work closely with them on.We have some evidence of our working closely with industry. Those are examples where our officials in the regions reach out to industry participants to look at ways to meet their needs by improving the management approach in their area, whether it's changing the season to match markets, increasing carapace size, or other measures they may be interested in.Carapace sizeFisheries and fishersLobstersRobertChisholmDartmouth—Cole HarbourRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1225)[English]Thank you very much. I'm sorry, we're out of time on that one.Mr. Woodworth.AdamBurnsStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth (Kitchener Centre, CPC): (1225)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to the witnesses for being with us here today. I have found this to be a very comprehensive review. We've touched on everything from the health of the stocks, to the size of the carapace, to the responsibility for marketing. It was a very comprehensive review. I'm going to touch on a few things to make sure that I've understood them correctly. I want to try to put it all in context. I'll begin by asking if you can tell me how to weigh the value of the lobster industry against the economy of the Atlantic provinces generally? Could I say that this lobster industry is a certain percentage of the gross domestic product of the Atlantic region? How can I quantify the economic impact of this industry in the Atlantic region?Atlantic CanadaEconomic impactFisheries and fishersLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1225)[English]We'll have to get back to you on that. I've seen the numbers, but I don't want to quote them as a percentage of the economy. What we can say is that it's a billion-dollar industry. It's the most significant fishery economically in Canada, not just in Atlantic Canada. There are approximately 10,000 participants in that fishery. As far as fisheries are concerned, it is the most significant one from an economic and participation perspective. As a percentage of Atlantic Canada's economy, I know we have those numbers, but I'm not sure what they are now.Atlantic CanadaEconomic impactFisheries and fishersLobstersStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1225)[English]There are 10,000 fishing enterprises. That involves 25,000 to 30,000 people across Atlantic Canada and Quebec. That's just in the harvesting sector. There are also hundreds of processors involved across the provinces. When you look at the peripheral impact of all of that, there's a lot of employment. I believe close to 80,000 people are employed in the lobster fishing industry across Atlantic Canada and Quebec. We can confirm those numbers for you, but I don't know the percentage or amount.Atlantic CanadaEconomic impactFisheries and fishersLobstersKevinStringerStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1225)[English]It would be helpful to me to have that confirmed. If possible, we'd like to have some context in respect of the Atlantic and Quebec economy. I don't know how to put that in perspective, but for now I'm going to operate on the assumption that it's a pretty significant piece of the picture. I'll wait to get those figures.The other thing I wanted to ask about was the Atlantic lobster sustainability measures, which provided $50 million for the development and implementation of plans to aid the fishery in making needed changes. What was the major thrust of that assistance? What was the money used for in the main?Fisheries and fishersGovernment assistanceLobstersPermits and licencesNadiaBouffardAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1225)[English]The money was used for a variety of investments, the main focus of which was related to trap and licence retirements. Just under 600 licences were retired, and when you add the traps that were removed, a total of 200,000 traps were taken out of the water.Fisheries and fishersGovernment assistanceLobstersPermits and licencesStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1225)[English]All right, that's what I thought. Please correct me because I may not have it right, but my understanding is that the reason we would want to retire 600 licences and take.... How many traps were taken out, did you say?Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersPermits and licencesAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1230)[English]A total of 200,000 were taken out.Fisheries and fishersLobstersStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1230)[English]So 200,000 traps are out, because the large landings have been depressing the price. Am I on the right track there or not?Fisheries and fishersLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1230)[English]I think by removing 600 licences, what it's done at minimum is that the total landings have been divided among fewer participants in the fishery who are dependent on that fishery. Mr. Stephen Woodworth: Right. Got it.Mr. Adam Burns: I think the evidence is that the landings themselves haven't gone down a lot, for a variety of reasons that we've talked about. Nevertheless, I think the program is successful in the sense that the number of harvesters dependent on the fishery has been reduced, and therefore the profits accordingly are—Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersPermits and licencesStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1230)[English]That's what I was trying to get at, so thank you for saying it correctly. This suggests to me that people in the lobster industry at least know that perhaps there are too many licences out there to be profitable. Is that correct?Fisheries and fishersLobstersAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1230)[English]I wouldn't want to speak for the industry, I suppose, but I think the approach that the ALSM program took in reducing licences was supported by industry. So I guess the logical conclusion from that would be that they supported a licence retirement program.Fisheries and fishersLobstersStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]Thank you—AdamBurnsKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1230)[English]I would add that this is certainly the view at a time when prices are low. The challenge is that when prices are high, there may be a different view.Fisheries and fishersLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]Thank you very much.KevinStringerNadiaBouffardNadiaBouffardNadia-BouffardInterventionMs. Nadia Bouffard: (1230)[English]The situation is not equal in all lobster areas. The number of participants in one area will be 2,000, and in another area 20, so it varies.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyLobstersPermits and licencesRodneyWestonSaint JohnRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Kamp.NadiaBouffardRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25511RandyKampRandy-KampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/KampRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Kamp: (1230)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I've had my turn, so I'll be brief.First, I'd like to welcome Mr. Richards to our committee. He's from Alberta, and better known for Prairie oysters than Prairie lobsters, I think—Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Randy Kamp: Earlier, in answer to Mr. Easter's question, we were nibbling around the edges of this individual quota fishery for something like Atlantic lobster. I understand that there isn't a lot of enthusiasm, although I did see in an article not too long ago that Ian MacPherson from the PEI Fishermen’s Association said that now is probably the time we should at least start talking about it. I hope we would all agree with that. If the primary thing is that it's a supply issue, and the fishermen don't want to talk about a mechanism that could well adjust supply and address the problem.... And over many years it's been a somewhat lucrative fishery, so I'm having difficulty accepting the fact that fishermen then expect the federal government to launch a new program or bail them out in some way, when up until now they haven't been very open to considering some things that might address the problem. I don't know if you have a comment on that. It's more a comment from me, I know, than a question.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasFisheries stocksLobstersRodneyWestonSaint JohnKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1230)[English]Good question. My colleagues are looking at the table, so I think they're expecting me.... Voices: Oh, oh!Mr. Kevin Stringer: Thanks for the comment.It's very instructive to take a look at the FRCC report, the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council, of 2007. It actually said that we should be looking at quotas or IQs, and then said that we should look at other mechanisms such as TURFs, which basically would determine that each group has a different area where they have exclusive use. As Adam has said—and I think I said it, as well—it is a challenging time. There isn't, as far as we can tell, a willingness to go down those roads. What our big concern is at the moment.... I said at the beginning that these stocks are in good shape. And they are in good shape: we're getting good returns. It's remarkable, the types of returns.There is concern about the exploitation rate, and there is concern about what happens if this starts to decrease, because we don't know what's going to happen five years down the road. There are dials that we have: increasing egg production, and dealing with carapace size. You've talked about or identified a couple of them. As long as it's in the healthy zone, we need to be working closely with industry about what it wants to take on and what it decides it wants to do. But we need to be watching carefully and talking to industry. They are open to discussions about a broad range of things. We need to be careful about what we raise, because we really need to bring industry along with us on this; it's not something that's easily imposed by the department.But I think there is an understanding that we can't keep going through this for the next number of years. We need to look at what dials we need to address.Adam.Fisheries and fishersFisheries policyFisheries quotasFisheries stocksLobstersRandyKampPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—MissionAdamBurnsAdamBurnsAdam-BurnsInterventionMr. Adam Burns: (1235)[English]I think you've covered it.KevinStringerKevinStringerKevinStringerKevin-StringerInterventionMr. Kevin Stringer: (1235)[English]Thank you.AdamBurnsRodneyWestonSaint John//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/4255RodneyWestonRodney-WestonSaint JohnConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WestonRodney_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]Thank you very much.At this time I would like to thank the officials for being here today. Once again I thank you for your patience in coming before this committee. You're right that the third time was lucky. So thank you very much, Kevin. Thanks for being here and answering our questions.Members, we're going to go in camera now for some committee business. We'll suspend for a moment while we move in camera.Thank you very much.[Proceedings continue in camera]KevinStringer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)): (1055)[English] Good morning, ladies and gentleman. We'll convene our meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.As one aspect of our mandate, we not only review the planned expenditures of various government departments and their estimates, but we also review the statutory programs. One of the recommendations made in a recent study we did as a committee was to do a better job of oversight as a committee; to commit to review all significant statutory spending at least once every four or eight years, I believe it was. Obviously, it's difficult to do more than that. We're very pleased. This is the first attempt to provide this additional scrutiny to some of the statutory spending undertaken by the government, so we're very pleased today to welcome very much a blue ribbon panel dealing with the public service pension plan. We're joined by representatives from the Treasury Board Secretariat: Ms. Kim Gowing, director of the pension and benefits sector; and Ernest Meszaros, senior adviser, pension and benefits sector. Welcome, Ms. Gowing and Mr. Meszaros.We also have, from the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Jean-Claude Ménard, chief actuary. Welcome, Mr. Ménard.We also have Public Sector Pension Investment Board representatives Martin Leroux and Mark Boutet. I'll let them introduce their positions.I understand that all three groups will have brief opening statements. I hope we have time for a thorough go-round to ask questions.Proceeding in the order that we have them on our agenda, we'll invite Ms. Gowing, the director of the pension and benefits sector of the Treasury Board Secretariat, to make opening remarks.Welcome, Ms. Gowing.Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing (Director, Pensions and Benefits Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat): (1100)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for the invitation to appear before your committee today. I'm here with Ernest Meszaros, a senior adviser within Pensions and Benefits at Treasury Board. We'd like to provide you with an overview of the public service pension plan and the work we do with our partners to manage and administer the plan.The public service pension plan has existed for over 100 years, since 1870, and in its current form is subject to the Public Service Superannuation Act. The plan provisions in this act have been amended from time to time, with the most recent changes coming last year with budget 2012. The plan is a contributory defined benefit plan covering most of the employees of the federal public service, territorial governments, and certain public service crown corporations. As of March 31, 2012, the pension plan had a total of 565,125 members, of which 313,652 are active contributors. The President of the Treasury Board is responsible for the overall management of the public service pension plan. The Treasury Board Secretariat provides the president with operational support to manage the provisions of the pension plan, such as providing recommendations on contribution rates and the production of the annual report. The Treasury Board Secretariat also engages with partners such as the Office of the Chief Actuary and the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, both of which are represented here today, and provides them with policy and program advice.Public Works and Government Services Canada is responsible for the day-to-day administration of the plan. The Public Service Pension Advisory Committee, composed of employee, employer, and pensioner representatives, is established under legislation to provide advice to the President of the Treasury Board on various matters relating to the plan. Under the Public Service Superannuation Act, a member's pension benefit is determined as 2% times the number of years of service, up to a maximum of 35 years, times the average of the five highest-paid years of salary. Pension benefits are coordinated with the Canada Pension Plan and the Quebec Pension Plan, and indexed to the consumer price index.The plan was most recently amended on January 1, 2013, to implement the following changes announced in budget 2012: employee contributions will be increased over a five-year period to reach a 50-50 current service cost-sharing ratio between government and employees by 2017; the government's share of the cost as of 2012 was 62%. New employees joining the plan after January 1, 2013, will be eligible for an unreduced pension at age 65 instead of age 60 for pre-2013 members; and other age-related retirement thresholds were also increased by five years for new employees. The Public Service Pension Plan Advisory Committee was consulted on these changes prior to their coming into effect. The chief actuary was also enlisted to provide expert advice.Prior to 2000, employee and government contributions were not invested. In 2000, the government established the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, PSPIB, in order to invest pension contributions into the capital markets. Employee and government pension contributions, net of payments and expenses, are now sent to PSPIB and invested. The funding of the post-2000 pension liability is dependent on employee and government contributions and the returns achieved by PSPIB on the invested assets. The president is responsible to make certain funding decisions for the plan and relies on advice from the chief actuary.The chief actuary generally provides this advice through actuarial valuations. The most recent valuation for funding purposes was completed as at March 31, 2011. This report was tabled in Parliament on June 21, 2012. The chief actuary also prepared an updated actuarial report for the public service pension plan to reflect the plan design changes outlined in budget 2012. This report was tabled in Parliament on March 25 of this year.The president, based on advice from the chief actuary, recommends employee contributions to the Treasury Board for approval. The rates for 2013, 2014, and 2015 have been approved and implemented. Based on actuarial advice from the chief actuary, the president approves government contributions that are required in addition to the approved employee contributions to pay for the current service cost. Pension costs and corresponding contribution rates have risen over the last 20 years due to many factors, such as low interest rates and increases in longevity of pensioners. For example, in 1980, employee contributions were approximately 5% of pensionable payroll and they are now closer to 9%. This trend is not unique to the public service pension plan, as all pension plans are faced with the same economic and demographic challenges.(1105)In 2011 the actuarial valuation report valued the post-2000 liability at $46.8 billion while the actuarial value of assets were $42.4 billion, resulting in a deficit of $4.4 billion.Pension plan surpluses or deficits occur when actuarial results vary from the projections that were set in the previous actuarial evaluation. There are many factors affecting the funding of the plan that explain the deficit as of March 31, 2011. Notably, liabilities were higher than anticipated for various reasons, including the fact that Canadians are living longer. Assets were also lower, as the return since the beginning of the funding of the post-2000 liability was lower than initially anticipated during the period that witnessed two of the worst market crises.Legislation requires that the President of the Treasury Board fund this deficit over a period of no longer than 15 years. In 2012 the president approved special payments of $435 million annually to the plan over the next 13 years. These payments are expected to eliminate the deficit by 2026. The first payment was made as of March 31, 2013. These funds are transferred to the PSPIB and invested along with regular contribution amounts.Thank you.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1105)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gowing.We'll invite Jean-Claude Ménard from the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions to speak.Mr. Ménard.KimGowingJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard (Chief Actuary, Office of the Chief Actuary, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions): (1105)[Translation]Mr. Chair, honourable members of the committee, good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.The primary role of the Office of the Chief Actuary is to provide actuarial services to the federal and provincial governments that are Canada Pension Plan stakeholders. While I report to the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, I am solely responsible for the content and actuarial opinions reflected in the reports prepared by my office.The Office of the Chief Actuary conducts statutory actuarial evaluations—generally, every three years—on the Canada Pension Plan, the Old Age Security Program, and pension and benefits plans covering the federal public service, the Canadian Forces, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, federally appointed judges, and members of Parliament. In addition, whenever a bill is introduced before Parliament that significantly impacts the financial status of a public pension plan under the statutory responsibility of the Chief Actuary, the office must submit an actuarial report to the appropriate minister.Following the passing of Bill C-45, the Public Service Superannuation Act was amended to increase the pensionable age—from age 60 to 65 in the case of new participants—for contributors entering the plan after January 1, 2013. Member contribution rates will be increased to bring their share of the plan's current service cost from 35% to 50%, thereby splitting the cost 50/50 between the members and the government. The President of the Treasury Board, the Honourable Tony Clement, submitted an actuarial report on March 25, 2013.In the second half of the 21st century, we experienced remarkable gains in life expectancy and highly decreased mortality rates. In 1965, average life expectancy at age 65 was another 15 years. This means that someone who was 65 years old back then could hope to receive their benefits for 15 years, on average, until the age of 80. At that time, women lived slightly longer than men.Today, 65-year-old retirees can hope to live another 20 years on average—with women still living slightly longer than men. However, the gap between the two sexes is narrowing quickly. According to projections, taking into account future mortality improvements—that is, future gains in life expectancy resulting from decreasing mortality rates—we could expect an additional three to four-year gain in life expectancy at age 65. Around 2050, based on our projections, people will reach the age of 88—people who were 65 years old 23 years earlier. Canadians are living longer, healthier lives and are working to a more advanced age.(1110)[English] According to the most recent labour force survey from Statistics Canada, the number of Canadians between the ages of 65 and 69 who are working has more than doubled over the last 10 years, increasing from 144,000 in 2002 to 374,000 in 2012. The number of those aged 60 to 64 who are still working also increased significantly to reach one million in 2012. Overall, the number of workers between ages 60 and 69 has more than doubled over the last 10 years, increasing from 600,000 to 1.4 million. In any case, whether the focus is on a pay-as-you-go plan or a fully funded plan, a defined benefit or a defined contribution solution, or a public or private sector pension plan, it's clear that increased longevity will continue to put pressure on pension plan financing. Thank you very much again for the opportunity to appear before the committee.I will be happy to answer any questions you might have.C-45, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measuresCanada Pension PlanGovernment programsOffice of the Superintendent of Financial InstitutionsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Ménard.[English]From the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, we have Martin Leroux, vice-president of policy portfolio and asset liability management.Jean-ClaudeMénardMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux (Vice-President, Policy Portfolio and Asset Liability Management, Public Sector Pension Investment Board): (1110)[Translation]Thank you and good morning.My name is Martin Leroux. I am the Vice-President of the Policy Portfolio and Asset Liability Management for PSP Investments—known more formally as the Public Sector Pension Investment Board. Joining me is my colleague Mark Boutet, Vice-President of Communications and Government Relations.We are pleased to appear before the committee today to answer your questions. I will start with a quick overview of who we are and what we do, but I will be brief to leave as much time as possible for your questions.[English]PSP Investments is an arm's-length crown corporation that was established back in 2000 to invest the amounts transferred by the Government of Canada for the funding of the post-2000 obligations of the pension plans of the Public Service of Canada, the Canadian Forces, and the RCMP. Since March 2007 we have also invested amounts for the reserve forces pension plan. With more than 400 employees and $64.5 billion in assets under management as of March 31, 2012, PSP Investments is one of the largest pension fund managers in Canada. We've experienced a very rapid growth in assets fuelled by strong positive inflows of about $4 billion to $5 billion over the past few years, and also by our strong investment returns. Our assets under management are expected to exceed $450 billion by 2035. Our mandate is to manage the funds in the best interest of the contributors and the beneficiaries of the plan and to invest with a view of achieving a maximum rate of return without undue risk of loss, having regard for the funding policies and requirements of the plans and their ability to meet their financial obligations. (1115)[Translation]More simply stated, this means that PSP Investments' mandate is to ensure that, given the current level of contributions, we earn sufficient return, so that there will be enough assets to cover pension benefits—that is, in the absence of other factors affecting the funding of the plans.Currently, the Chief Actuary has determined that this requires achieving a 4.1% rate of return after inflation.[English] One can appreciate that achieving a 4.1% return after inflation is not risk-free. There is no single risk-free asset class or investment strategy that would deliver such a return year after year. This is particularly true in today's low interest rate environment, so at least a minimum amount of investment risk must be taken in order to achieve the desired level of return. In other words, PSP Investments must invest in the financial market to achieve its legislated mandate.Let me give you an overview of how we achieve that. The blueprint for how we invest in the financial market to achieve the 4.1% rate of return is what we call the policy portfolio. It is basically our long-term strategic asset allocation. It dictates where every dollar we receive will be deployed in the market—in Canadian equity, foreign equity, bonds, real estate, and so on. This asset allocation strategy is the key determinant of risk and returns over time. You will see that our current policy portfolio goes beyond public asset classes like stocks and bonds, and we do include a significant allocation to less liquid private asset classes, namely, real estate, private equity, infrastructure, and renewable resources. Those asset classes involve ownership interests in assets that do not trade on public exchanges, such as an equity stake in private companies or in an office tower. Why are we doing this? If you look at the way the obligations of the plan are funded, we expect PSP Investments to continue receiving strong and positive inflows of capital until 2030. In other words, we won't need to sell assets to pay benefits for a long period of time. This puts us in a unique position where we can have a very long-term view with respect to our investments. It thus provides us with the opportunity to invest in assets that are private and less liquid.[Translation]Of course, we expect to be rewarded for doing so by receiving some excess returns or “illiquidity premiums”, which investors typically demand for taking on illiquidity risk—risk that we can afford given our special circumstances.We also invest in what we call “real return” asset classes—such as real estate, infrastructure and renewable resources. Why? Because, in addition to capturing illiquidity premiums, these types of assets are considered a good match for the inflation-sensitive nature of the plans' liabilities. [English]As a result, the policy portfolio is expected to provide for a better return than a portfolio invested only in public markets such as bonds and equities. It is also expected to provide a better match with the pension obligations, the pension liabilities, and how they are funded, thereby reducing the risk associated with the funding of the plans and thus contributing to their sustainability. You may ask how we have done so far. Have we achieved the actual rate of return of 4.1% after inflation? Since we started our diversification strategy of investing in less liquid private assets back in 2004, PSP has recorded a compounded rate of return of 7.6% after expenses. This compares to an actual rate of return of 6.2% over the same period. That is the actual rate plus inflation. So we have exceeded the actual rate of return, despite the fact that this period included one of the worst market meltdowns since the Great Depression. This concludes my remarks today. We look forward to your questions.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPublic Service Pension PlanRCMP Pension and Insurance PlansReserve Force Pension PlanVeterans benefitsPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]That makes me feel like handing you my portfolio to manage, Monsieur Leroux.My thanks to all of you. That's a really interesting introduction and overview.We are going right away to questions. For the official opposition, the NDP, we have Ms. Linda Duncan.MartinLerouxLindaDuncanEdmonton—Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35873LindaDuncanLinda-DuncanEdmonton—StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DuncanLinda_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Duncan (Edmonton—Strathcona, NDP): (1120)[English]Thanks, Mr. Chair.I have one question and then I'll turn it over to my colleague, Irene Mathyssen.It's been suggested that the costs of managing the federal pension fund are much higher than the costs of comparable pensions at the provincial level. I'm wondering what is being done to benchmark the costs of administering the pension fund against the costs of other jurisdictions. How do you ensure that the fund is well managed and that the cheques are delivered in a timely fashion? I noticed in looking at the budget that at least in one fund there is a reduction of about $20 million in administration and $1 million in the public service pension fund account. Whoever is appropriate can speak to that.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1120)[English] It's important to understand that there are different types of structures when you're comparing us to other public sector plans. Our plan is in legislation, so we are tied to specific rules that are in there as well.With respect to administering the plan, we've just gone through the transformation of bringing it online with the new pension platform. We are working towards finding efficiencies as we move forward with the new platform.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanLindaDuncanEdmonton—StrathconaPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]Ms. Duncan is going to be sharing her time with Irene Mathyssen.Welcome, Irene. You have the floor.KimGowingIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP): (1120)[English]Thank you very much. Welcome to the committee. I appreciate all the information you bring. I have a number of questions. I'll just ask whoever feels most comfortable answering to proceed.The first has to do with contribution holidays. Does the Treasury Board participate in contribution holidays? if so, what is the rationale? We all know that markets go up and down and that we should contribute more when times are good to ensure there's enough when times are not.Could you tell me about contribution holidays?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatPatMartinWinnipeg CentreKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1120)[English]Our pension plan does not normally have contribution holidays.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1120)[English]Lower administrative costs are expected after pension modernization is completed.How many years will it take to offset the costs of implementing the modernization project, and how much money is expected to be saved in that modernization?KimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1120)[English]I would have to get back to you with the answer to that question. It's Public Works.IreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1120)[English] I would appreciate that.My office has had some complaints from the public service pension group in regard to delayed pensions and benefits to people with a disability due to computer problems. Does this have anything to do with the modernization plan? Can you tell me if the problem is resolved, and how were people compensated for the delay in receiving their pension?KimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1120)[English]I will have to work with Public Works to get you an answer to that question.IreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1120)[English]I would appreciate that.On June 12 of this year, the modernization disability management in the FPS was announced. At that point, it was said that the current sick leave credit system discriminates against newer and younger employees, yet in Bill C-45 there was the introduction, as you pointed out, of the first two-tier pension system in the history of FPS providing hirees after January 1, 2013, with a reduced benefit.How do you explain and reconcile these two contradictory positions, that it's been modernized and it's going to be better, yet there's going to be this reduced pension benefit?C-45, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measuresGovernment programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1120)[English]This is a decision of the government to move towards an age 65 retirement benefit.Government programsPensions and pensionersIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1120)[English]According to the most recent actuarial report of the supplementary death benefit plan, such as the life insurance for FPS employees and retirees under part II of the Public Service Superannuation Act filed by the chief actuary in March 2011, there's a $2.4 billion surplus in the supplementary death benefit account. The federal public service employees and retirees pay approximately 100% of the premiums for the SDB. What are the intentions in regard to the disposition of this surplus? Have you any idea how that $2.4 billion will be treated?Death benefitGovernment programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanKimGowingJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1125)[English]I can confirm that the amount you mentioned is right, and indeed the actuarial report has shown a surplus. I would say it's inevitable in a sense. People are living longer, which means they are dying later. It's clear that the insurance plan might develop surpluses over time. It's not for me to answer what the government could do with this notional surplus.Death benefitGovernment programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshawePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]I'm afraid, Irene, your five minutes has expired. It goes very quickly with five minutes for questions and answers.Jean-ClaudeMénardIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1125)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Perhaps there will be time later. PatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Yes, absolutely. IreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1125)[English]Thank you. PatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]We do know what Marcel Massé did with the surplus of the general fund in 2000.We'll go to Peter Braid. IreneMathyssenLondon—FanshawePeterBraidKitchener—Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58922PeterBraidPeter-BraidKitchener—WaterlooConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/BraidPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Braid (Kitchener—Waterloo, CPC): (1125)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much to all of our presenters for being here this morning. They are very helpful presentations. This really helps to demystify the public service pension plan for committee members. Ms. Gowing, I want to start with a couple of questions for you. You mentioned in your presentation that contribution rates are set for 2013, 2014, and 2015. They've been approved and implemented. Is it typical that contribution rates are set three years out?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1125)[English]Yes, they are. We've set the contribution rates based on the most recent actuarial evaluation, which determines the funding requirements for the plan. We normally set the rates for a three-year period. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPeterBraidKitchener—WaterlooPeterBraidKitchener—Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58922PeterBraidPeter-BraidKitchener—WaterlooConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/BraidPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Braid: (1125)[English]Great. Thank you. I have a question about the current deficit as well. In your presentation you describe the deficit as a post-2000 pension liability. When did the deficit first occur? When was it first reported?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1125)[English]I'll pass this on to Jean-Claude. PeterBraidKitchener—WaterlooJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1125)[English]It's a very good question. It was first reported in the 2011 actuarial report. Before that there was a small surplus. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanKimGowingPeterBraidKitchener—Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58922PeterBraidPeter-BraidKitchener—WaterlooConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/BraidPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Braid: (1125)[English]Thank you for that clarification. With respect to the changes that our government has made to the pension plan, effective January 1, 2013, could you speak to how those changes will favourably impact the deficit? In other words, if those changes weren't made, I presume the deficit would grow over time and would be worse. I realize that life expectancy is a separate issue. But with respect to the changes to the plan, could you explain how those may favourably impact the deficit?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1125)[English]First, because the changes are looking forward, it means the balance sheet as of March 31, 2011, is not impacted, so the deficit is exactly the same. Over time, employees will pay a bit more than they previously paid and the government will pay a bit less. As the total current service cost—that is, actually about 20% of the pensionable payroll—this number is about 17% for what we call the group 2 contributors. It's the people who will join the plan after January 1, 2013. So going forward, the current service costs will be lower for those people, and of course the employees will pay a lower contribution rate as well as the government for these employees. It will take some time—I would say at least a couple of actuarial reports—before we will see the impact on liabilities going forward. Government programsPensions and pensionersPeterBraidKitchener—WaterlooPeterBraidKitchener—Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58922PeterBraidPeter-BraidKitchener—WaterlooConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/BraidPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Braid: (1125)[English]Thank you. Monsieur Ménard, you're at OSFI, of course. I presume you have a bit of a viewpoint of the pension landscape across the country, being at OSFI. Could you speak to how the recent changes to the government pension plan are similar to trends we're seeing in the pension industry in Canada generally?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1125)[English]There has been a trend in other jurisdictions where the objective is to share what we call the current service costs 50-50. In the most recent Ontario budget, I think they mentioned that, as well as in Quebec. This trend of sharing the current service cost in equal parts between the plan members and the government, or the plan sponsor, is a trend that is not unique to the federal level. Government programsPensions and pensionersPeterBraidKitchener—WaterlooPeterBraidKitchener—Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58922PeterBraidPeter-BraidKitchener—WaterlooConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/BraidPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Braid: (1130)[English]Thank you very much. Do I have any time?Jean-ClaudeMénardPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[English]You have about a minute and a half left, Peter. PeterBraidKitchener—WaterlooPeterBraidKitchener—Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58922PeterBraidPeter-BraidKitchener—WaterlooConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/BraidPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Braid: (1130)[English]Excellent.Monsieur Leroux, it was a very interesting presentation with respect to how the assets in the plan are invested. I was very interested to learn that not all the assets are actually invested in the markets.What percentage are invested in the markets and what percentage are invested in other areas, like real estate and private equity infrastructure?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1130)[English]As of today, we have about a 30% allocation to private asset classes, but our target is to increase this allocation over time to reach 42%. Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPeterBraidKitchener—WaterlooPeterBraidKitchener—Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58922PeterBraidPeter-BraidKitchener—WaterlooConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/BraidPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Braid: (1130)[English] With respect to that private investment percentage, how do you make those decisions? Do you help to fulfill any other government objectives, in terms of investing in infrastructure or in hi-tech startups in the riding of Kitchener—Waterloo, for example?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1130)[English]As I mentioned in my introductory remarks, we are at arm's length from the government. Our mandate is strictly to invest with the aim of maximizing the return without the risk of loss. A key input in this mandate is basically the actual rate of return of 4.1%, which is required to sustain the plans over the long haul.Government programsPensions and pensionersPeterBraidKitchener—WaterlooPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[English]Monsieur Ravignat.MartinLerouxMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat (Pontiac, NDP): (1130)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today.[English]In my opinion, there's kind of an elephant in the room at this meeting when we talk about pensions. Most Canadians and most pension holders are wondering whether the finance minister is still scheduled to meet his provincial counterparts to discuss expanding the CPP and QPP.Are you getting signals or signs that the government is still committed to negotiating, with the provinces and territories, the retirement security for all Canadians, or are they not?Federal-provincial-territorial relationsGovernment programsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentreKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1130)[English]I cannot answer as to what the Department of Finance is going to do.MathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[English]Does anybody else want to give a response?KimGowingMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet (Vice-President, Communications and Government Relations, Public Sector Pension Investment Board): (1130)[English]I don't think we can answer either. We are at arm's length.Federal-provincial-territorial relationsGovernment programsPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[English]Fair enough. Thanks for the answer.[Translation]Did TBS make the planned savings of $20 million in 2012-2013 as a result of the recent changes to the Public Service Pension Plan?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatMarkBoutetKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1130)[English]Currently at this time, because the public accounts for 2013 aren't out yet, we can't answer that. We expect that in the coming months, though, we'll be able to determine what savings have been—Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[English]Are we expecting that those savings will hit $20 million?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1130)[English]That's the expectation.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[English]So you're still on target?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1130)[English]I can't say exactly. I'm waiting until the accounts come out, but that's the target.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[Translation]Does TBS expect the cumulative savings to reach $2.075 billion by 2017 and 2018, as projected?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1130)[English] I'm sorry....MathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[Translation]I can repeat the question if you like.KimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1130)[English] The $2.1 billion, I apologize.MathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[Translation]Okay.KimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1130)[English]Again, we're targeting to reach the savings by 2017, and we're monitoring the contribution rates over the....Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much.Of course, some public servants are worried about the changes being made to the plan. As you know, the employee contribution rate to the Public Service Pension Plan will steadily increase until the employer and the employees are splitting the plan's cost 50/50.Will employees have more of a say in the plan's management, or will they continue to have their voices heard through their representatives within the Public Service Pension Advisory Committee?What is the plan in terms of public sector unions' involvement?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1135)[English]Currently, employees will be engaged through the Public Service Pension Advisory Committee, through their representatives.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]In other words, they will pay more, but they will not have more of a say in the process.Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1135)[English]Again, the pension advisory committee will....MathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]So no changes will be made in that area.Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1135)[English]No change to the....Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]Okay.Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?KimGowingPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]You have two minutes.MathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]Does the Chief Actuary provide actuarial estimates of the costs and obligations stemming from the changes made to the contribution rates of the Public Service Pension Plan?Government programsOffice of the Superintendent of Financial InstitutionsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[Translation]The answer is yes.Government programsOffice of the Superintendent of Financial InstitutionsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]Do the actuarial evaluations stem from the changes to the contribution rate coming into effect?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[Translation]That answer is also yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]Could you describe how that worked?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[Translation]First off, we received the proposal contained in Bill C-45 . In some ways, it's a fairly easy change to make because the total cost of the plan stays the same as far as we're concerned, except for new contributors. That cost, however, will materialize over time.For the first five years, then, the change affecting new contributors isn't as significant as the change in the cost-sharing ratio, which will go from 35/65 to a 50/50 split. We carried out the evaluations that were asked of us.C-45, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measuresGovernment programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]Very well.Jean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[Translation]They appear, by the way, in the report that was tabled in Parliament.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]The compensation package will change because the public service pension plan amounts are changing. Will that have an impact on the public service's appeal as an employer? It is seen as an employer of choice, after all. Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1135)[English] I would have to say the public service pension plan is still a very good pension plan, and I believe it will continue to attract employees.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1135)[Translation]Thank you.KimGowingPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]Thank you, Mathieu. That concludes your time.We'll now go to the Conservatives.[Translation]Mr. Gourde, you have five minutes.MathieuRavignatPontiacJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, CPC): (1135)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the witnesses for being with us this morning.Mr. Ménard, earlier, you explained that the number of years during which a beneficiary could draw on the pension plan had gone up. Basically, those who retired before 2012 could receive benefits at 60 years of age. You said it was possible for them to receive benefits for 20 years after turning 65, so until the age of 85. Can people expect to receive benefits for about 25 years?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[Translation]Yes, exactly. Those who retired at 60 will receive benefits for an average of 25 years.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1135)[Translation]My next question is for Ms. Gowing.When a pensioner dies, does a portion of the pension benefits always go to the spouse? Is it 50% or 60%?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanSurvivor pensionsJean-ClaudeMénardKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1135)[English]Do you wish to have an explanation of survivor benefits? When an individual passes away, there are survivor benefits for the spouse, and child benefits as well.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanSurvivor pensionsJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[English]And the amount is...?KimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1135)[English]It's 50% of the amount of the benefit at retirement.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1135)[Translation]There is no time limit, even if the spouse is 20 or 25 years younger than the participant. That means that the benefits for the same employee could be paid out for 45 years.Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[Translation]I would like to add a piece of information, if I may. What you're saying is true. The actuarial report contains an assumption. Again, it's an average, because the total cost is evaluated using averages. On average, the surviving spouse is three years younger than the plan participant. So yes, the spouse will receive benefits for a slightly longer period of time because of their age, but a scenario like the one you're describing would still be the exception.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanSurvivor pensionsJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1135)[Translation]It does happen, though.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1135)[Translation]Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1135)[Translation]The potential is there.My next question is for Mr. Leroux.You said that you invested in real estate, publicly traded companies and private companies. Is it more complicated with private companies? Is it more direct with large companies and small ones?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardJean-ClaudeMénardMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1135)[Translation]There is a certain level of complexity. And that is why we developed our own expertise internally. It's important to be very familiar with the management of organizations. That gives us an edge. We have much tighter control over investments. As I said in my statement, we expect to receive illiquidity premiums, in other words, a slightly higher return than if we had simply invested in public assets.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]So you hold shares in private companies.Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[Translation]Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]Sooner or later, be it in 15, 20 or 30 years' time, you will have to resell those shares, under the terms of your contracts.Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[Translation]That's right.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]You will resell those shares to the company itself or other parties.Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[Translation]That's right.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]Does it work fairly well? Is the return higher than the market rate?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[Translation]That is the case.Since these companies' shares are not public and are not traded, the return on the investment should be higher because, as an investor, we are assuming a greater risk since we're dealing with illiquidity. We expect to receive a higher return.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]They aren't easy to sell off quickly, but eventually, that will be necessary.Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[Translation]The thing to understand about illiquidity is that, if we decide to sell, we couldn't do it tomorrow morning as though it were the stock market. It takes some time. We have to find a buyer and follow certain steps. That doesn't mean they can't be sold, just that steps have to be taken and the right buyer has to be found. It's a rigorous process. Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]It can be a way for those companies to obtain funding for five or ten years, in the medium term, basically. Selling their shares to a pension fund gives them liquidity to grow their business and make strategic investments.Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[Translation]Exactly.Some organizations look very favourably on these investments because they aren't required to meet with shareholders every quarter, for example, which they would have to do on the public market. Given that we have a very long-term view as far as our investment horizons go, we are a very patient investor. That very long-term outlook is an advantage for some organizations.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]When you say real estate assets, do you mean residential buildings, shopping centres and land?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[Translation]The real estate portfolio is extremely diversified.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1140)[Translation]It covers all kinds of buildings, including Canadian office buildings. We have real estate assets in 28 countries, and they run the gamut from residential and retail property to office buildings.Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]Do you deal with realtors or do you deal directly with the companies and governments in question?Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1140)[Translation]In most cases, we deal with realtors.Government programsPensions and pensionersJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1140)[Translation]Thank you.MarkBoutetPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English] Merci, Jacques.Now we welcome Judy Sgro for the Liberal Party. Welcome, Judy. JacquesGourdeLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): (1140)[English]Thank you very much. I'm very glad to be here.We thank you all for being here.To Mr. Leroux first. You know we have a huge challenge when it comes to infrastructure in Canada—transit, bridges, roads, and all the things that many of our municipalities are facing. In your asset allocation strategy, how much do you allocate for infrastructure, public infrastructure in particular?Government programsInfrastructureInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1140)[English]The target allocation for infrastructure is currently set at 13% of our portfolio, but right now the allocation is probably closer to 5%, I think, so it's really in a ramping-up phase. In terms of the allocation, it's diversified in many regions of the world. I think we do have a presence in Canada. Government programsInfrastructureInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardJudy A.SgroHon.York WestMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1140)[English]Yes, we do. I would say that when you look at our peers in Canada—whether it's us, the CPPIB, or the teachers—we are renowned around the world as some of the most sophisticated infrastructure investors, but unfortunately we don't find many assets in Canada. For all of us, we are mostly invested in infrastructure outside of Canada. We own airports in Australia, we own ports in the U.K., and we own pipelines in Norway, but we find there is a very limited supply of attractive infrastructure assets in Canada. Government programsInfrastructureInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardMartinLerouxJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1140)[English]As an example, if you're going to get up to 13% in infrastructure, and I appreciate the fact that you're investing the money wisely, I hope, in many of these other countries.... We have a huge challenge here when it comes to our own infrastructure needs. How would our municipalities approach you for an investment? Through which division would they be applying for the partnership in P3s and those kinds of things in Canada? Do you get involved in those at all, whether it's a hospital being built or some other part of the infrastructure system?Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1145)[English]I think we are most attracted to assets in infrastructure such as ports, airports, those types of assets. Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]What's the difference, if we want to fix that?Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1145)[English]Overall, we find that with those types of assets the cashflow is very predictable; they are recession proof. That's why those assets are most coveted by infrastructure investors. Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]How are the decisions made as to your investments? I'm still back on infrastructure. MarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1145)[English]Yes.Judy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]You're trying to ramp up to 13%. I'm very interested in reallocating money that's put into pensions back into our own country. You have a board of directors, I assume, that does all that analysis and then comes forth with a recommendation as to where it's a good investment for your money—our money. Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1145)[English]For all of our private investments we have a dedicated team for each asset class. In the case of infrastructure, we have a team of about 20 people who are dedicated to finding the investment opportunities, whether in Canada, the United States, or in Europe. Larger deals need to be presented to the board, where they will be accepted or.... The board needs to basically decide on the investment. Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English] That would be the final decision-maker?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1145)[English]Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1145)[English]That's right. Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]Mr. Ménard, on the unfunded liabilities of obligations from the Government of Canada, can you tell me what the amount is?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanMarkBoutetJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1145)[English]As stated by Kim Gowing earlier, the public service pension plan deficit as at March 31, 2011, is $4.4 billion. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]Was there ever a surplus in the pension plan?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1145)[English]In the previous report, in 2008, there was a small surplus of about $1 billion.Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]Okay—Jean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1145)[English]And if you...oh, sorry.Judy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]Continue.Jean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1145)[English]If you look at how the situation evolved from 2008 to 2011, you will see in our report that many factors have affected the funding status of the plan. One item was, of course, the investment losses of 2008 and 2009. But another aspect of it is...I changed the assumptions of the real rate of return. In the 2008 report, it was 4.3% in real terms; now it's 4.1%. Obviously the minute you reduce the expectation on the discount rate, you increase the liability. This also explains the size of the deficit.Moreover, for the first five years of the projections, we recognize that interest rates are very low, and we have an assumption that is lower than the 4.1% we had for the first five years. There are all these factors, plus of course since the past decade, let's say, public servants are living longer. Even if in previous reports we had improved our future longevity, we still have more than what we expected in the past. This has also contributed to a higher deficit.Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1145)[English]Do you anticipate—Jean-ClaudeMénardPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Thank you, Judy. Actually, you're well over your time.Next, for the Conservatives, Bernard Trottier.Judy A.SgroHon.York WestBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, CPC): (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.And thank you, guests, for being here today.The first question is for Ms. Gowing.You described the pre-2000 regime and the post-2000 regime, and credit where credit is due, I think there was a recognition at that time under the Liberal government that we needed to have a different set-up for funding public sector pensions. In the post-2000 plan you mentioned that there's a deficit of $4.4 billion. I'm wondering if you could talk about the special payments to make up for that $4.4 billion. In a way, we have a certain generation that signed up well before 2000 that was entitled to certain benefits, but now, based on the deficit, there's an inability to make those payments, so the current taxpayers have to top that up.What other options did the Treasury Board have in terms of addressing that pension fund deficit that was there?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatPatMartinWinnipeg CentreKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1150)[English]The pension deficit had to be addressed by the government. They're responsible for the deficit, as the legislation lays out. So the government assumes full responsibility for that.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1150)[English]So out of the general revenues that the government receives, about $435 million will be paid for the next 13 years to address that deficit. Is that correct?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1150)[English]Yes. But I also think it's important to note that based on the next actuarial evaluation, there's a possibility that the deficit could be reduced or, in and of itself, eliminated, depending on the results of the next actuarial evaluation.Government programsPensions and pensionersBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1150)[English]Is there a provision that if that deficit is addressed by a higher-than-expected return on investment, the $435 million a year could also be reduced?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1150)[English]It would either be reduced or disappear or cease.Government programsPensions and pensionersBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1150)[English]Okay, very good.One of the things that's special about Canada, when you look at debt-to-GDP ratios, is that we tend to focus on net debt to GDP, and it shows a much healthier fiscal situation of Canada compared to other countries. I'm not sure if you're an economist or can talk about this. With a net debt to GDP, we take out the fact that the pension liabilities are not coming out of general revenue. In many cases, things like the CPP, the current public sector pension plan...they're self-funded by investments, whereas in other countries they resemble our pre-2000 regime. So compared to the United States or other G-7 countries, Canada is in a much healthier fiscal situation. Can you talk about that, why net debt to GDP is actually a pretty valid metric to look at when we compare Canada's fiscal situation to that of other countries?Debt-to-GDP ratioGovernment programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1150)[English] Yes. I think you are right to say that, especially when we compare Canada's situation with those of OECD countries. In many other countries, the pension liabilities are not reported in their books. In the case of Canada, we have been doing this for many decades now. Even then, we have started to back the pension liabilities with tangible assets, so to some extent, when we compare Canada to OECD countries, we are in a very favourable position.Debt-to-GDP ratioGovernment programsPensions and pensionersBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1150)[Translation]Thank you.My next question is for Mr. Ménard.You mentioned the fact that life expectancy is going up and the fact that the population is aging. Those are two trajectory forces. Today, there are fewer young people to pay the benefits, but more pensioners. To some extent, that reflects a transfer of wealth from one generation to the other.I believe important steps have been taken such as raising the eligibility age from 65 to 67 and the contribution rate from 35% to 50%.How do those measures—meaning the increases in the eligibility age and the contribution rate—compare to steps other countries are taking?Government programsOld Age SecurityPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1150)[Translation]To answer that, I'd like to give you some information that is more relevant to the national level. As you know, the eligibility age for the old age security program went from 65 to 67. That change will start coming into effect in 2023 and be fully implemented by 2029.As for what other countries are doing, the retirement age in 14 OECD countries is currently above 65 or between 65 and 67. That is the case right now or will be the case eventually.On the matter of the aging population, I would put it in the context of the Canada Pension Plan because population changes are more significant in that regard. Ours is a nation of immigrants. We have welcomed a great many immigrants over the past 40 years, especially in English-speaking Canada. That is why our population will age, but at a much slower pace than in European countries. Government programsOld Age SecurityPensions and pensionersBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreBernardTrottierEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71627BernardTrottierBernard-TrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/TrottierBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Trottier: (1150)[English]How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?Jean-ClaudeMénardPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Actually, your time is up, unfortunately, Bernard. Thank you.We're just about to go to the second round. But if I could take one minute, I'm still curious about the changes made in Bill C-45, the two significant changes of 60 to 65 years old and the 35% contribution to 50%. With regard to the $50 billion surplus we had in the year 2000 that was legislated away from the fund, if that had been invested at the 4% annual compounding interest, would either of these steps have been necessary if the workers' deferred wages had not been taken away from them in the year 2000 in the big scoop of Marcel Massé's final move as Treasury Board president? Has anyone ever extrapolated the position the fund would be in if we had not been denied that $50 billion actuarial surplus that existed in 2000?Monsieur Ménard, you've been here since 1999. Has that study ever been done?C-45, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measuresCanada Pension PlanGovernment programsPensions and pensionersBernardTrottierEtobicoke—LakeshoreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1155)[English]I would like to first correct the $50 billion. It was actually $28 billion, and it was a national surplus. The decision was taken at that time through Bill C-78 to finance the liabilities—the pension benefits and the pension promise going forward—by tangible assets. I cannot comment further on what you have said, but I can say that it was and still is a national surplus.But what is important is that we have moved from national funding, from 1924, let's say, until 2000—because these superannuation accounts have existed since 1924—to real funding with tangible assets to back the pension promise. To some extent, we have strengthened the system by doing so.Canada Pension PlanGovernment programsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Okay. That's interesting. Thank you.We'll go to the questioners. Linda Duncan, please.Jean-ClaudeMénardLindaDuncanEdmonton—Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35873LindaDuncanLinda-DuncanEdmonton—StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DuncanLinda_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Duncan: (1155)[English] Thank you very much.I want to follow up on this renewable portfolio. I have a series of quick questions on this. Who is the Public Sector Pension Investment Board seeking advice from on selection for the renewable portfolio? When you're evaluating, are you also giving consideration to other externalities? In other words, some of the investments you may make in renewables may provide additional revenue through taxation and so forth to the Government of Canada. I'm particularly interested in the interest in investing in timber, and I'm wondering if preference is being given to those corporations that are dedicated to sustainable harvests, and some are also dedicated to setting aside caribou habitat. My final question on this is about agricultural land. In your annual report of 2012, you say you are interested in moving toward the purchase of or investment in farmland. I find it odd that at the same time as the federal and the Saskatchewan governments are selling off the 80-year-old prairie pastures, which generate tens of millions of dollars in tax revenue for the Government of Canada, the pension fund is now interested in investing in agricultural land. Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1155)[English]I'll try to address all of your questions. In terms of decision-making, as with our other private asset classes, we have built an in-house team to make decisions. From time to time they will be seeking external advice to help them, but we see a lot of value in making those investments with in-house expertise. To give you some background on why we've created this asset class called renewable resources, which include timberland and farmland, there are a few things that as an investment organization we want to make sure we're focusing on. The first thing is to recognize that we are funding liabilities, and thus we will be taking a close look at the nature of those liabilities. As I mentioned before, that means we will be favouring investment so that where we fail, there's an equity premium we can get that will also provide some inflation protection over time. One thing we need to keep in mind is that the pension obligations of the public service pension plan are highly sensitive to inflation. Those final average earnings are fully indexed in retirement, so we want to pay close attention to inflation. In our mind, timberland and farmland are definitely well geared to keep pace with inflation. A third criterion that we look at is purely diversification. In our mind, investing in timberland and farmland is definitely a strong diversifier from the other investments in our portfolio, which will help us weather more volatile market conditions. A good example of that is when we invest in timber we buy into biological growth, which is not well correlated with the economy or where the stock market is going, so for us there are strong advantages in doing that. I believe you had one question on the ESG. Mark, do you want to touch on that?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardLindaDuncanEdmonton—StrathconaMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1200)[English]With regard to renewable resources, ESG is a factor that we take very seriously, and we are very conscious of the social licence to operate these types of assets. I would argue that in having an investor such as a pension fund—and you were referring to TimberWest, where we're partnering with BCIMC—you probably have the ideal owner for those types of assets because we're not focused on maximizing the annual cashflow from the assets. TimberWest was a publicly listed company that had a lot of debt. Because they had debt, they had to cut more trees to pay the interest on the debt. Obviously, as a pension plan with significant inflows, we don't have that issue. So I think those types of assets have found the ideal owner in public pension funds in private hands. Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardMartinLerouxLindaDuncanEdmonton—Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35873LindaDuncanLinda-DuncanEdmonton—StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DuncanLinda_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Duncan: (1200)[English]Thank you.MarkBoutetPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]There's only a minute left. LindaDuncanEdmonton—StrathconaIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1200)[English]I have a very quick question. The average pension for plan members in the public service has been estimated at $27,135. We hear all kinds of statements about the gold-plated pension. That strikes me as hardly being gold-plated.I wonder if you look at what is adequate in terms of a decent and secure pension. Is $27,135 an adequate pension for someone going into retirement?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1200)[English] The goal of the pension is not only to take into account the employer's benefits being provided, but also that the person is receiving a benefit from the Canada Pension Plan as well. We're trying to achieve the industry benchmark, which is to replace 70% of the income a person had at the time of retirement.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1200)[English]Are there any clawbacks?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1200)[English]No, there are no clawbacks.Government programsPensions and pensionersIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshawePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Thank you, Irene.We'll go to Dan Albas.KimGowingDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas (Okanagan—Coquihalla, CPC): (1200)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all of our witnesses for their testimony here today. This is actually a really interesting subject. There is one thing in particular, Mr. Chair, that we should step back and take a look at. It is what Mr. Ménard originally voiced, and I think Ms. Gowing also mentioned it, which is that Canadians are living longer. I think that's a goal that most people would say government should have. We should have policies that encourage people to be educated. We should have proper health care, so that we have better health outcomes at the end of the day.Now that being said, Mr. Chair, it's also our responsibility to make sure, of course, that they have a stable income. I want to applaud each of you for your efforts to make sure that for the people who work for the federal government who are entitled to their benefits...you're looking out to make sure those dollars are managed wisely and that they're kept supremely and paramount in mind.I'm just going to step back, Mr. Chair, before I go to the PSP. There is one thing we all agree on...and maybe I should just ask the president himself about it. Your purpose is to create a stable return so that there is stability in the actual pension plan itself and so that you are beating inflation without risking those dollars. Is that correct?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1200)[English]Correct, recognizing that our 4.1% target is a long-term target and therefore we cannot guarantee that we're going to achieve this target every single year.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1200)[English]That being said, we've had.... I remember the Internet bust of 2000. There was a lot of angst there. I know many people lost 30% to 50% of their investment income, Mr. Chair. And then we also had the great recession in 2007-08, and it continued on for a few years after that. For you to be maintaining that...it shows that obviously you are watching.When you mentioned that you were investing in a lot of illiquid properties and shares in businesses, etc., outside of the country, a number of people seemed to murmur that that wasn't a good goal. We may have an infrastructure deficit in Canada, but if I were in your shoes, I would be asking how we are going to beat inflation and how we are going to diversify so that the Canadian economy, if it's having a hard time, will still have investment income coming in. To me, that means you would have to go outside of that. I have a question on that. You said there are airports and ports. Did you also include bridges in the asset portfolio of the non-financial...?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1205)[English]I don't think we have bridges.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]One of the challenges we have here in Canada—and this is just me thinking here. If I knew there was public money—and I know this is actually private money, because at least half of it is being put forward by the employee, and the other half is from the government, to make sure it's there.... If, however, Canadians were being charged—and I think you know where I'm going here—for using an airport or a port, and that money was going back to this fund, I think some people would resent that. They'd say that part of that is government money and they should have it at no cost.When you invest outside of Canada, you can suddenly charge what the services are worth, for a profit, to make sure a good investment is being made. Is that correct?Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1205)[English]It is. Again, our mandate is strictly related to maximizing return for the benefit of the funding of the plan.Government programsPensions and pensionersDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]Would your organization endorse this strategy of purchasing assets outside the country, for the reasons we've mentioned here—that you can make a profit and that you're also sheltering the money so that when the Canadian economy is turbulent, you'll have that diversification?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1205)[English]From a diversification standpoint, we would. Government programsPensions and pensionersDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]I'd like to go back to the deficit of $439 million that Mr. Trottier mentioned. You mentioned, Ms. Gowing, that with the actuarial reports coming out, that may change. Is that correct?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanMartinLerouxKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1205)[English] Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]Okay. Now, with this 50-50 split that we've moved to, obviously that $439 million is in addition to the 50% the government will continue to put in. Is that correct?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1205)[English]Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]And that's just because we've had more people living longer and drawing upon it than the actuarial report had forecast. Is that correct?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1205)[English]It would have been a change between the last actuarial evaluation and the most recent evaluation. Government programsPensions and pensionersDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]So the government really is actually putting more than 50% in, at least on an interim basis, because it has to make sure that there is that stable funding for pensioners. Is that correct?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1205)[English]It has to ensure that there is enough money to pay for the benefits accrued.Government programsPensions and pensionersDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]Okay. So again, the government is actually—I shouldn't say “government” because it really is the Canadian taxpayer backstopping those. Is that not correct?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1205)[English]Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaDanAlbasOkanagan—Coquihalla//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1205)[English]Mr. Chair, I just want to sum up that I think these people are doing a fantastic job. I commend you for what you do to make sure that those people have stability in their lives, and I think the public policy goals of stability and ensuring that those investments are being wisely accounted for are there, Mr. Chair. I'm very satisfied today. Thank you.KimGowingPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]Duly noted, Mr. Albas.Voices: Oh, oh!The Chair: I should point out that I have just seen a graph here that shows that in the year 2009 they did have the obvious dip because of the 2008 crisis, but that in 2010 they spiked up. I don't know if you want to share, Monsieur Leroux, but you had a remarkable recovery in 2010 with a rate of return of 18%, was it?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardDanAlbasOkanagan—CoquihallaMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1205)[English]You need to recognize that it's also the nature of the market. The market goes up, the market goes down. When there is a crisis, often it's followed by a strong return. Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]Strong correction steps must have been taken.MartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1205)[English]I would say that one of the benefits of being in private asset classes is that some of those asset classes, such as infrastructure, have proven to be more resilient in times of crisis, and that definitely helped the organization weather the storm.Government programsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]That's interesting.Mr. Ravignat.MartinLerouxMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1205)[English]Monsieur Leroux, somebody should tell you to take credit when credit is due. You'd be surprised that I'm not in fundamental disagreement with Mr. Albas's point of view, but I get a little bit nervous when you say that your only mandate is to maximize returns. I think Canadians and those who buy into this pension plan are naturally concerned about how and where their money is invested and whether or not they have a say. My NDP colleague talked about environmental sustainability, and I think the answer was that there is some consideration taken for that. But what about companies that behave badly when we invest in them? What I mean by that is ethical issues. When we do invest in those companies, and something is found out about problems with their ethical practices, is that taken into consideration? Is that reviewed, and how?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1210)[English]I would say that we have had an environmental, social, and governance policy since 2002. We have processes that ensure that these considerations are taken into account in all of our investment decisions for all asset classes. We don't do stock screening, as many of our peers don't. The reason we don't is because we believe that engaging companies is a more productive way of effecting change, so we are very active on proxy voting on public companies. Last year we voted at about 3,000 annual meetings. We engaged this year and in the prior year directly with companies of—Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1210)[English]Thanks for that information. I understand by what you're saying that you don't punish companies you invest in by reviewing your stocks, but you try to pressure them in one way or another to change their behaviour.Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1210)[English]That's correct.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1210)[English]How do you go about pressuring them to change?Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1210)[English]We have direct engagement with the companies, and those types of engagements can be, depending on the issues, one meeting or they can be meetings over several years. We do that with an external partner.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1210)[English]In your opinion, has that method been successful in the past?Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1210)[English] Well, if you look at our annual report of last year, you will see that we've been making progress on some of the issues that we've identified and the engagements that we've decided to pursue.So yes, we are making changes.Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1210)[English]You'll excuse my scepticism, but it just seems to me that if you don't have an ultimate policy that you will act in a severe way, then the likelihood that behaviour will change is low—particularly when there's resistance; I'm sure not all companies are resistant.Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1210)[English]As I say, I'm not the person responsible for responsible investing. Ultimately, do we decide to divest from a company...? I would have to get back to you on that. But I know that we are very active—Government programsPensions and pensionersMathieuRavignatPontiacMathieuRavignatPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/318MathieuRavignatMathieu-RavignatPontiacNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RavignatMathieu_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Mathieu Ravignat: (1210)[English]It would be interesting to know—you've kind of predicted what I'd like to know—when push comes to shove what you would do. What would you do in the case where you're actually getting a pretty good return? It would be interesting; and I think Canadians and those who invest in this plan would sleep better at night knowing that at the end of the line, if a company is unethical, then their investment portfolio will reflect the ethical issues on that.I'd like to go on to something that Mr. Albas made some reference to, and that's the aging population.[Translation]What's the percentage of working versus retired public servants? What's the ratio? Have you figured out how that ratio will change over the next 10 years? Have you done any estimates to that end? Does your plan take age changes into account? How do the ratio and fluctuations affect the financial sustainability of the pension plan?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanMarkBoutetJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1210)[Translation]Thank you for that question.The annual Report on the Public Service Pension Plan indicates that the ratio of pensioners to employees has remained relatively stable over the past 10 years, at around 60%. That figure is expected to hit 65% in the near future, 76% in 5 years and 84% in 10 years.I would like to take this opportunity to reassure the member that the actuarial report already takes that ratio into account. The most recent actuarial report also shows the progression of the public service. In the long term, the growth of the public service is expected to more or less mirror that of Canada's population. The period I'm referring to is 2018 and beyond.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanMathieuRavignatPontiacPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]Thank you, Monsieur Ravignat.Next, for the Conservatives, Kelly Block.Jean-ClaudeMénardKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, CPC): (1215)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I would like to join my colleagues in welcoming you all here today and echoing their sentiments that this has been very interesting and very informative. I want to perhaps try to understand the history a little bit better. Obviously, we know that this crown corporation was created in 1999, and the pre-2000 contributions were not invested on....Mr. Ménard, you were here in 1999. I'm wondering if you can help me understand, or describe for me, what was happening at that time, either in the industry or perhaps in other countries, that had our Government of Canada move to the changes and the creation of this crown corporation.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1215)[English] I will give you a bit of a comparison with the OECD countries. There are mainly three ways to recognize the pension promise or the liabilities related to public servants. First, in Mexico, for example, you pay the retirees and you don't necessarily book the liabilities before, when the service is rendered. Second, there's what we call notional funding, which is what we had in Canada before 2000. There were credits representing employee and employer contributions that went into the superannuation account through the Consolidated Revenue Fund. The third way is to back the liabilities by tangible assets, which is what has been done since 2000. One thing particular to our plan is that when you start to finance years of service starting in 2000, 2001, and 2002, it means that the minute before, 100% of your liabilities are on the government books. As time passes, this liability is transferred and backed by tangible assets. As we speak today, 13 years after the implementation started on April 1, 2000, when we look at the total liabilities, about 30% for the public service is backed by tangible assets, and the remaining 70% for service before the year 2000 is still on the government books. Going forward to 2050, because it takes that long to move the liabilities, because the pension plan is of a long-term nature, by 2050 almost all of the pension promise will be backed by tangible assets.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPublic Service Pension PlanKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1215)[English]In other words, many OECD countries were moving towards this kind of pension plan.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1215)[English]In my view, there were not enough.Government programsPensions and pensionersKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1215)[English]No? Jean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1215)[English]That's right. KellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1215)[English]Okay, thank you. My second question has to do with the relationship of this crown corporation to other crown corporations and what sorts of strategies you may be developing or have in place to ensure that these crown corporations move to a 50-50 sharing of costs. An alignment of the age of retirement has been built in, but I wonder about the changes that have been passed in Bill C-45. C-45, A second Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measuresGovernment programsPensions and pensionersTreasury Board SecretariatJean-ClaudeMénardKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1215)[English]We would have to get back to you with an answer on the crowns. We're here for the public service pension plan.Government programsPensions and pensionersTreasury Board SecretariatKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1215)[English]So you don't have a specific responsibility or working relationship with other crown corporations to help them move to the implementation of....Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1220)[English]In the area that I'm with at Treasury Board, we do not.Government programsPensions and pensionersKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarKellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1220)[English]Okay, thank you. KimGowingPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1220)[English]We're going to Judy Sgro and the Liberal Party. KellyBlockSaskatoon—Rosetown—BiggarJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1220)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.On the issue of the unfunded liabilities, Mr. Ménard, can you speak today to the total unfunded liabilities, not just the public service? Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1220)[English]Well, there is a deficit of about $4.4 billion for the public service. I will have to get back—Canada Pension PlanGovernment programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1220)[English]I realize you might not have those numbers right—Jean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1220)[English]Right in my head, no. As a rule of thumb, when you look at the public service, it's about 70% of the total liabilities of the RCMP, the Canadian Forces, and the public service. So if you do the math, you could do $4.4 billion divided by .07 and you would have a sense of the current deficit of all the public sector pension plans, for service after the year 2000. The rest is still on the books of the government.Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1220)[English]Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1220)[English]It is the result of the credits made by employees and the government in the past. Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1220)[English]When you've made the estimates of the contribution rates for 2013, 2014, and 2015 to the Treasury Board, I assume at that point they will be re-evaluated as to whether they need to be increased more at that time, depending on how things are going or the state of the economy. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanJean-ClaudeMénardKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1220)[English] When the three-year period is up, at that point in time, Mr. Ménard will have another actuarial valuation that will allow us to assess if we're on target for the 50-50 in 2017 and adjust our rates accordingly for 2016 and 2017.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1220)[English]There could be another increase coming in those two years—Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1220)[English]Yes.Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1220)[English]—in order to reach that. It's a fairly significant amount of money. It increased a lot after 2008. I mean, you had a small surplus in 2008—and you know we had a bit of a recession issue, a few things here and there, in spite of people denying we had one at one point—but it seems to have grown quite substantially. I don't know—you're doing the numbers—but it seems that it really grew a lot from 2008 to 2011. In three years it went from a small surplus of a $1 billion to a deficit of $4.4 billion.Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1220)[English]Yes. There are two aspects to it, because you could say we had a small surplus in 2008. If I look at a longer period and I start with the 1999 report until now, at that time we projected that the life expectancy of public service men who were 65...that they would live until 85. In the most recent report, it's 87. So we have changed our assumptions, because people are living longer than expected. That's one aspect.The other thing is that the 2008-09 crisis was a game changer. One difficult assumption to make, of course, is the discount rate or the expected rate of return on assets, and since then we have reduced our expectation from 4.3% to 4.1%, and this has also increased the liabilities. When I do that, first I compare the assumptions with my peers. At 4.1% it's well-aligned with the other public sector pension plans in Canada. The other thing we are looking at is the work done by Credit Suisse. They released a report in February 2013. There's an interesting article about the “low-return world”. We have taken this into consideration and reduced accordingly the expectations on the assets side, which means that it increases the liabilities and therefore the deficit.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1225)[English]In spite of the fact that we expect that more people are going to be working longer—one of your comments earlier was about the number of people who are not retiring at 65, who are choosing to work to 69, or whatever the number.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1225)[English]In terms of this part of my statement, I will say that it has a much more positive impact on the financial sustainability of the Canada Pension Plan, the fact that people are working longer.Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestJudy A.SgroHon.York West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroYork WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy Sgro: (1225)[English]They are contributing more as well.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1225)[English]Yes, and the government has introduced, with the agreement of the provinces, what we call the post-retirement benefit. In 2012, the work cessation test was removed from the Canada Pension Plan. Therefore, all Canadians have the choice and the flexibility between retirement income and working earnings. If they ask for their CPP benefit, they are free to do so. If they continue to work, they contribute, and there's a post-retirement benefit that is helping them increase their benefits if they continue to work after they ask for their CPP benefits.Government programsPensions and pensionersJudy A.SgroHon.York WestPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1225)[English]Thank you, Judy. I'm afraid you're over your time.Jay Aspin.Jean-ClaudeMénardJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin (Nipissing—Timiskaming, CPC): (1225)[English]Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks to our guests. This has been a very enlightening morning, indeed.As we know, these types of liabilities have to be closely monitored. They can get away on you quickly. By this morning's testimony, I have assurance that the situation is well in hand. I have a question of possibly Mr. Leroux. You indicated in your brief that the chief actuary has determined that this requires achieving a 4.1% rate of return after inflation. Is that a real return? Is that 4.1% after inflation of 2%, or does that include a 2% inflation rate?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1225)[English] It's a real return, and if you were to include inflation, and it's only inflation at 2%, that would mean a return of 6.1%.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardJayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin: (1225)[English]Okay, fine.With that in mind, my questions are relative to asset mix or allocation and returns. You've indicated in your briefs that basically there are three classes of asset mix. There are equities, fixed investments, and real return investments. Are you able to break down, in terms of those asset classes, what the returns are?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1225)[English]Yes, historically, we provide this information in our annual report, but more importantly, for us to formulate our strategic asset allocation, we do develop expectations in terms of returns, but also in terms of volatility of returns, and that is basically what will drive how much will be allocated to each of those asset classes.Government programsPensions and pensionersJayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin: (1225)[English]Could you give us a flavour maybe of the various returns in those three asset classes?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1225)[English]Do you mean going forward?JayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin: (1225)[English]Yes.MartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1225)[English]In terms of expectations, bonds would be an easy one because there is some evidence that over time bond returns should be pretty close to their current yield, and the yield, as you know, is pretty low currently in the marketplace, so you should expect a return, given the yield environment, of about 3%. In terms of equity, we do have a more favourable view toward the equity marketplace. We do expect that what we call the equity risk premium should be around 4% to 5%. That would be on top of fixed income, so it would be a return of 7% to 8%.Government programsPensions and pensionersJayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin: (1225)[English]In terms of the class asset real returns, you've mentioned there are such investments as real estate, infrastructure, renewable resources. How are you able to determine a rate of return on these? How do you get a fix on that? You can't look it up on a stock chart. How do you do that?Government programsPensions and pensionersMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1230)[English]That's a good question.There is definitely less available information for those asset classes, but we do have a thorough understanding of how their returns should behave over time, and that's enabling us to basically formulate views on how they would be.... Real estate is an example. Although there is limited information for some asset classes, such as infrastructure, for real estate there is more information, and we're about to have a clear view of what the return will be with those asset classes.Government programsPensions and pensionersJayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1230)[English]If I may, I'm not sure if I understood the question correctly. Are you looking for valuation going forward or valuation in terms of returns for the year?MartinLerouxJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin: (1230)[English]I'm looking for how you are able to determine a rate of return for those particular asset classes, like real estate, infrastructure, renewable resources. How do you determine how much you've made in a year?MarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1230)[English]You're talking about the rate of return. From that perspective, depending on the types of assets, we have external valuation committees where we review all of the different assets. These people are experts in the valuation field and they're external to PSP, so the returns of the private market asset classes are valued internally. They go to our finance and risk committee, and then they go to an external valuation committee. Following that, all of our returns are audited by the auditors of PSPIB, which are the Auditor General of Canada and Deloitte. All of our returns are audited.Government programsPensions and pensionersJayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]Jay, you're over time. If you have a brief summary question—MarkBoutetJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin: (1230)[English]Is this subjective, then, because you're asking the opinions of some other people?Government programsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1230)[English]What we are doing is looking at indicative transactions in the market. For example, if we are present in real estate in New York City, we'll look at similar transactions in New York City. We'll have appraisals from experts in that field. It goes to different committees. There is a committee that is independent from PSP, and ultimately it is audited by the Auditor General of Canada.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardJayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingJayAspinNipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71717JayAspinJay-AspinNipissing—TimiskamingConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AspinJay_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jay Aspin: (1230)[English]Okay.Thank you, Mr. Chair.MarkBoutetPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]Thank you, Jay.That concludes the second round of questioning. We have time to get a little bit further into a third round. I have two points for clarification. I don't believe I heard or saw in the report an estimate of the total amount of brokerage fees you might spend in an average year above and beyond your in-house costs.Second, on the composition of your board of trustees, if you're moving to a 50-50 contribution rate, will you be moving to a 50-50 composition of the board, employer to employee? Even though some of us are of the view that all pensions are deferred wages of the employee, is that change in the composition of the board in the works? As well, give an idea of the broker fees paid for your investment.FeesGovernment programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanJayAspinNipissing—TimiskamingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1230)[English] I'll start first. I'm not so sure that we're not mixing up two particular boards. There's the Public Service Pension Advisory Board, which is made up of employer and employee representatives and reports to the president. And there is PSPIB, which has a specific board appointed as governor-in-council appointees who are chosen through a nominating committee.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]I meant the actual investment board that would be making investment decisions more than policy guidelines. Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1230)[English]Yes, they'd be specific to the investments.Government programsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1230)[English]With regard to your question, we disclose in the financial statements.... I won't quote the actual financial note because I don't recall the number by memory, but I know it is in the financial statement. I would say that for the fiscal year 2012, the transaction costs, which would include brokerage fees for the public market and all of the transaction costs related to private market assets, were roughly $64 million. FeesGovernment programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardKimGowingPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]Very good. Is there talk about adjusting the composition of your board to have equal representation of employers and employees, or what is the composition of it now? If they're governor-in-council appointees, who is making these investment decisions on behalf of the employees currently? Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPublic Service and public servantsMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1230)[English]I can try to answer that question.If you look at the Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act, there is an independent nominating committee put in place, and that committee has the responsibility of proposing to the minister members to be directors of our board of directors. Ultimately, the minister would go through the process of accepting or not accepting, and asking the nominating committee to find other people and going through the process of the governor-in-council appointments. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPublic Service and public servantsPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]Are the directors trustees in the sense that they have a fiduciary obligation that trustees of benefit plans have, or are they a board of directors as are members of a corporate board?Government programsPensions and pensionersMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1235)[English]They have the fiduciary duties of a board of directors. We are not a trust.Government programsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]You're not a trust.MarkBoutetMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1235)[English]No.PatMartinWinnipeg CentrePatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]These are not trustees. Okay, that's helpful. Thank you.Irene Mathyssen.MarkBoutetIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1235)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Again, thank you for your expertise.I want to switch to more of a human relations kind of question. In the brief, you've indicated, Madam Gowing, that of the 565,125 members, 313,652 are active contributors. We know there is downsizing going on in the public service, and I'm assuming that of the 12,000 to 13,000 jobs that will be eliminated, a number of those would be younger and contributing members of the public service. How does that impact, first of all, the liabilities you've calculated? Second, what effect, if any, does it have in terms of the anticipated contributions? Has that work been done?Government programsLayoffs and job lossesPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1235)[English]We don't have a precise number on the demographic composition of the downsizing currently under way. What we do have, however, is a projection of these contributors, and according to the most recent report, we are projecting about 300,000 contributors in 2016-17. That's the number we have in the actuarial report. As such, the liabilities are both related to these contributors and the pensioners, the disabled, the survivors, and their children who are receiving benefits.Government programsLayoffs and job lossesPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1235)[English]When you were doing your calculations, you didn't have any concerns. Are you still on target?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1235)[English]We don't have precise numbers, but I'm ready to say that in 2014, in the next triennial report for the public service, we will take this into consideration and have more precise numbers in that. Government programsLayoffs and job lossesPensions and pensionersPublic Service and public servantsPublic Service Pension PlanIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1235)[English]We'll certainly look forward to that. Again in terms of human resources, with regard to the changes that have been made, we're now going to have a two-tier system with respect to pensions and benefits for those who are hired after January 2013. Was any concern expressed about the impact of having a two-tiered system in regard to human relations—I guess the impact on the employees—knowing that an employee hired before the deadline has a different pension plan than one hired later? Was there any concern in that regard?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1235)[English] No, there wasn't really any concern. One of the things that we have noted over the years is that a person coming into the public service is older now, so to give them the opportunity to build up a longer service with us and reach the 30 years, age 65 is the consideration.Government programsPensions and pensionersIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1235)[English]Why is it that they're older? Is it because a certain life experience is helpful in entering the public service? Do you look into that kind of human reality?Government programsPensions and pensionersKimGowingJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1235)[English]I think it's just a reflection of what is happening in the Canadian population. When you look at the composition of workers aged between 20 and 69, we have seen a shift to older workers. Right now the average age of a new person in the public service is 34. Ten years ago it was 32. Another ten years before that it was probably around 30 years of age. So it's just a reflection of the global aging that is occurring in the general population.Government programsPensions and pensionersIreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1240)[English]I think it would also be important to note that the new individuals coming in after 2013 are paying a different rate, to take into account a lower rate for their pension plan because they are going to age 65.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardIreneMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/764IreneMathyssenIrene-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MathyssenIrene_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Irene Mathyssen: (1240)[English]Finally, in the briefing notes from you, Mr. Leroux, you talk about the expectation that PSP investments will continue to be strong, with positive inflows of capital until at least 2030. That date struck me as rather interesting because we've heard a lot of gloom, doom, and predictions of a collapse in regard to so many seniors. There will be 9.8 million by 2036, as compared to 4.8 million now.I recognize that it's the general population, but the fact is that there's this strong growth, this positive inflow, in terms of the public sector, so it seems to me that those predictions of doom and gloom may be a bit exaggerated. The course we're taking in regard to the future of pensions in this country may be rather overreactive than reasonable in regard to the numbers and the facts that you're presenting.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardKimGowingPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1240)[English]A brief answer please, Mr. Leroux.IreneMathyssenLondon—FanshaweMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1240)[English]Briefly, this reflects basically how the liabilities are expected to grow over time. We do rely on numbers and projections provided by the office of the chief actuary. Jean-Claude, do you want to comment?Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardPatMartinWinnipeg CentreJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1240)[English]Yes. A decision was taken to finance service after 2000. That means that even if it's an old plan, to some extent it's a very young plan for services after the year 2000, which means that in terms of cashflow, the contributions coming in are expected to be higher than the benefits—not the total benefits, but the benefits related to years of service after 2000. These contributions will be higher than these benefits until at least 2030 and maybe 2032.Government programsInvestmentPensions and pensionersPublic Sector Pension Investment BoardMartinLerouxPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1240)[English]Thank you, Irene.Ron Cannan.Jean-ClaudeMénardRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan (Kelowna—Lake Country, CPC): (1240)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, lady and gentlemen, for an excellent presentation.Following up from Ms. Mathyssen, I have a news alert: we're all getting older. The reality is that this is the demographic in Canada, but I guess it's like a fine Okanagan wine; we're getting better with age. Our workforce is in many cases working longer or living longer, so it's helping in that respect.I have a couple of questions. One is to Mr. Leroux. First of all, you talked in your opening comments about the size of the pension fund. Is it one of the top three in Canada by size?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanPatMartinWinnipeg CentreMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1240)[English]In terms of size, I believe we're number three?Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryMarkBoutetMarkBoutetMark-BoutetInterventionMr. Mark Boutet: (1240)[English]No, we would be number five or six.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanMartinLerouxRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1240)[English]Okay. Both Ms. Mathyssen and my colleague Peter Braid talked about trends within the industry. Mr. Ménard, you mentioned the trends. Maybe you could talk about industry trends from the private to the public sector. Either yourself or Ms. Gowing talked about how the pension plan is still very generous compared to what's happening within the industry and the private sector. Maybe you could compare the public and private sector and what's happening.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanMarkBoutetJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1240)[English] Well, the story is different, I would say. Every year now, we are releasing on our website a fact sheet page on registered pension plan coverage. In that two-page fact sheet you can see that about 87% or 88% of public sector pension plans continue to be covered by defined benefit pension plans.If you look at the private sector, and indeed if you look at the overall coverage first, about 6 million workers are covered by an employer pension plan, which is about 40% of the labour force. If you look at the trend now between defined benefit and defined contribution plans, you see that in the private sector about 24% of workers are covered by an employer pension plan. It has been stable for the public sector, but it has decreased for the private sector. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1245)[English]Thanks for that comparison, because Chrysler announced on Friday that in both the U.S. and Canada they are moving to defined contributions, so there is a two-tier system happening within the private sector as well, which is of concern to some of the folks and a reality of what is happening in the industry. I know that my colleague, Minister Menzies, has worked very hard also in coming up with another alternative for the private sector to try to come up with a registered pension plan. From your perspective, have you had any input in that, in the consultation process?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1245)[English]I didn't have any input on this. This initiative is called the pooled registered pension plan. I have two observations to make. I would say the first is that size matters. Indeed, I think Bill Morneau released a report for the Ontario legislature and said in his report that in order to achieve efficiency, or in terms of returns, any fund lower than $40 billion might incur expenses that will be detrimental to the plan members. To some extent, this idea, this planned pooled registered pension plan, is to permit all Canadians to pool their assets, to put their retirement savings together, and then achieve, first, better returns, and also lower administrative expenses.Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1245)[English]So about $40 billion in Canada is the break point. Is that what you're saying?Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-ClaudeMénardJean-Claude-MénardInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Ménard: (1245)[English]According to Mr. Morneau's report, and based on his study, after $40 billion you start to get interesting returns with reasonable expenses.Government programsPensions and pensionersRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1245)[English]Mr. Leroux, I think you said that $64.5 billion is what you're at right now.Government programsPensions and pensionersJean-ClaudeMénardMartinLerouxMartinLerouxMartin-LerouxInterventionMr. Martin Leroux: (1245)[English]Yes, it is. Government programsPensions and pensionersRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1245)[English]Following up, maybe somebody can share with the committee the review of the governance structure as defined by the secretariat's oversight role as it relates to the public sector plan. It was recently reviewed. Maybe you could share the findings with the committee. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatMartinLerouxKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1245)[English]I'm sorry. Which report?RonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1245)[English]It was the review of the governance structure as defined by the secretariat's oversight role as it relates to the public sector pension plan. KimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1245)[English]I believe you're referring to the 2011 report on the—RonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1245)[English]That's correct. KimGowingKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1245)[English]Within that report, it was found that the overall governance in and of itself was well managed; however, there needed to be more of the defined roles and responsibilities within Treasury Board. We've currently struck an ADM governance committee to review the governance to enhance it even further. Government programsPensions and pensionersPublic Service Pension PlanTreasury Board SecretariatRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1245)[English]Ron, I'm afraid your time is.... Could you could wrap it up, please? You're over your time. KimGowingRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake Country//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35933RonCannanHon.Ron-CannanKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/CannanRonald_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ron Cannan: (1245)[English]Sure. I just have a question. In 2011-12, there was an audit of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat's management control framework of the public service pension plan. Can you tell us what the Treasury Board has been working on to continue to meet these requirements?Government programsPensions and pensionersPatMartinWinnipeg CentreKimGowingKimGowingKim-GowingInterventionMs. Kim Gowing: (1245)[English]We're continuing to work at improving the control frameworks. We're currently doing a lot of process mapping and following the recommendations of the audit.Government programsPensions and pensionersRonCannanHon.Kelowna—Lake CountryPatMartinWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1174PatMartinPat-MartinWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MartinPat_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1245)[English]Thank you, Ron.Thank you, Ms. Gowing.That actually finishes our time for questioning the panellists. We want to sincerely thank all the panellists for their presentations. It was very interesting, and it's very helpful for us to get a better grasp of this significant area of statutory spending by the federal government. Thanks to all of you.We're going to suspend the meeting briefly and reconvene in camera for five minutes or so to discuss future business. Thank you again, Ms. Gowing, Monsieur Leroux, and Monsieur Ménard. [Proceedings continue in camera]KimGowing//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, NDP)): (0845)[English] Good morning. This is meeting number 91 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. It is Tuesday, June 18, 2013.We'll begin this morning, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), with our study of the economics of policing, and then at the end of the second hour we'll take 10 minutes for committee business.I'd like to welcome those who are substituting on the committee. Of course, once again we'll wish Kevin well, and we look forward to seeing him back in the chair after today.This morning we have a first panel of witnesses, which will consist of Chief Matthew Torigian from the Waterloo Regional Police Service, and by video conference from Halifax, Professor Christopher Murphy from the Department of Sociology and Social Anthropology at Dalhousie University. My thanks to both witnesses for being here this morning. I'll just check with Mr. Murphy as to whether he can hear and see us. It looks good from this end.CostsPolice servicesChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopher-MurphyInterventionDr. Christopher Murphy (Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Anthropology, Dalhousie University, As an Individual): (0845)[English]Yes, everything's fine here.CostsDalhousie UniversityIndividual presentationPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0845)[English]Okay, great.We'll begin with opening statements from the witnesses and then we'll go to rounds of questions. Because of my lack of trust in technology, we'll go first to Professor Murphy at Dalhousie before we lose him. We'll ask you to make a ten-minute presentation.ChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopher-MurphyInterventionDr. Christopher Murphy: (0845)[English]Thank you very much.Good morning, and thank you all for this opportunity to present to you some of my ideas based on my experience of looking at Canadian policing and policing in general for over 25 years. I've been a student of Canadian policing as an academic, but I also spent eight years in the old solicitor general department as a policing policy researcher when in fact the ministry had a capacity and an interest in national policing and police research. I'll come back to that later.First let me say that Canada has a well-earned reputation and the Canadian police have earned a reputation as having a stable, publicly supported, and modern professional police force, one that I think has an excellent record when compared to our comparator nations—Australia, England, the United States, etc.—relatively free of corruption and the excessive violence that has characterized at least some aspects of policing in those countries.Canadians have invested heavily in good government, and as a result have invested in good policing. We also invest in health care, education, etc. We've been willing to pay taxes and invest in public policing in order to have a high degree of public safety and personal security. Indeed, Canadians may invest more in their public police than almost any comparable country in the world, as measured by per capita spending, and we probably have the best-paid public police in the world. We have developed a good and professional, but very expensive, model of public policing, one that has grown significantly, as you're all aware, in police numbers and policing costs over the last 10 to 20 years.However, the capacity and willingness of the public to continue to pay for more policing without at least more evidence of the value and efficiency of that model is at a tipping point in Canada. It certainly is in other countries, such as England and the United States. Municipal governments find it increasingly difficult to sustain their current policing costs, let alone meet rising policing costs. In short, it's my belief, and that of many municipal police leaders and municipal government people responsible for policing, that the current model of public policing, as is, without change, is simply not financially sustainable, and that without significant change to the current model there will be an inevitable decline in both the number of police officers and the quality and range of police services that will result.There are some possible, and not very attractive, policing scenarios that are out there already, and I'll just run through them quickly. One is to simply continue the growth scenario we've had for the last 10 years. You've seen the data—increases of about 5% a year. These are not sustainable without increases in municipal or provincial taxes, or simply cannibalizing other municipal services to pay for this increase. In 2011 we see this increase suddenly stop, and we're moving to what I would call a static growth model. That is, we try to maintain the current number of police officers and the service levels with more moderate increases in annual funding. It's about 3% now, which means, to some extent, no increases in the number of police officers, but because of salaries and benefit increases, it remains about 3% on an annual basis. That means we'll have flat growth despite increases in population, so the police per population ratio will decrease. This is actually very similar...and we may be in a period like the 1990s, when between the years 1990 and 2000, Canada saw an actual decrease in the total number of police officers—not much, but there was virtually no growth—and a significant decline in the per capita ratios.I did a study at that time to see what police were doing and how they were managing this period of fiscal restraint. Basically, they cut services that were considered not essential, non-crisis, and they had to reprioritize their limited resources to meet the demand they had. It wasn't necessarily a period of innovation or change, simply a reduction in the quantity and to some extent the focus of police services. We have a negative growth option, which is simply to cut the number of police officers and cut the budgets, and that will of course lead to a decline in the level of police service and public safety. It's not a desirable one, but it's one we see in the U.S., where simply to meet financial crises in municipal budgets, they've cut the number of police officers. I don't think we're there yet, but a number of municipalities may be facing that kind of scenario in the near future, and that worries me.(0850)Finally, the good news is that I think there is a change in the development model that is currently being explored in a variety of places. It's an attempt to manage the growth in police spending, but somehow without diminishing the quality and quantity of policing services, and to some extent even improving and expanding those services, primarily through significant forms of change, reform, and innovation.You have no doubt had some witnesses from the English experience and have heard about the changes there, as well as witnesses from the United States and some municipalities. It's an attempt to change the current model of public policing in ways that make it perhaps more cost efficient and in some ways more cost effective. This can mean a rethinking of the fundamental policing model and the police role and their relationship to the community; the privatization of some police services, etc.; new organizational and occupational career models that allow for lateral entry; different kinds of recruiting and education strategies; new ways to deliver more cost-efficient services, such as civilianization, tiered policing, various forms of community service officers—there are experiments that address that issue—and more effective use of new information and communication technologies; and finally, a better educated and more diverse police profession and a commitment to evidence-based models of strategies in public policing.We can watch and to some extent learn from the British experience. It's not entirely positive, and it's mixed, but at least they are documenting, researching, and evaluating what they're doing, and I think their ideas are having a significant influence on what Canadian police are at least looking at now.I believe we're faced with the same situation as the British police and the American police. It's perhaps less dramatic, but I think it still is a situation that calls for some degree of change, reflection, and analysis. What's different about England is that they actually have an information base, a research capacity, to kind of underlie or at least stimulate these kinds of examinations and innovations. This brings me to my last point. If we are going to adapt to the current challenges facing Canadian policing, and the more complex and sophisticated policing and crime issues, we don't have the kind of research and information base that other countries have. Compared to countries such as Britain and Australia, we invest very little and do very little either in-house police research—that is, police doing their own work—or applied academic police research. We even lack the basic information to assess whether in fact in some cases we're doing the kind of work that we think we're doing and being as efficient or as effective as I think the public and the police would like it to be.The good news is that I think Canadian police are ready and interested in research information, knowledge development, and evidence-based strategies in a way that I haven't seen over the last 25 years, no doubt occasioned by this fiscal restraint or this crisis, depending on how you look at it. I think they're eager to become involved in a new kind of evidence-based, research-based enterprise that they see as going along with reform and change. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has reinvigorated its research foundation. The Canadian Police College is developing a series. Even the Canadian Police Association recognizes that research and evidence-based policing will have to develop more effectively in Canada. The second piece of good news is that we do have the research capacity in this country to do that kind of work. There are growing centres of police research and an increasing number of academics who do applied police research of interest both to academics and to police. We have the interest and the capacity to develop this infrastructure. What we lack is an infrastructure that funds, coordinates, and facilitates research, knowledge, information, and innovation in this country.In a sense, because of this, we are forced to import policies and practices from other countries, often without assessing whether they're viable or feasible here. We don't tend to evaluate whether they are appropriate or effective. (0855) We need national leadership from Public Safety Canada, from the federal government, to coordinate these centres of regional and municipal interests and expertise, to facilitate development of a national research agenda to underline the reforms and changes that are coming in policing, and to make them as effective and efficient as possible. I can close on that. I could certainly say more, and I will be pleased to answer any questions you may have on anything I've said.Thank you.Budget cutsCostsGovernment assistanceIndividual presentationInformation collectionPolice servicesResearch and researchersService deliveryUnited KingdomValue for moneyRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0855)[English]Thank you very much, Professor Murphy.We'll now turn to Chief Torigian for a 10-minute opening statement. ChristopherMurphyMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian (Chief of Police, Waterloo Regional Police Service): (0855)[English]Thank you very much. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the invitation to speak with you today. By way of beginning my comments—and I look forward to the discussion that will take place afterwards—I'll try to walk you through a description of where we see all of this coming together. Professor Murphy touched on a lot of the points that I think are very important when we look at where policing is headed in Canada. This morning I hope to share with you some of our on-the-ground experiences on some of the work we've done and the initiatives we've undertaken to determine the best approach to delivering public safety and security for our community. At the same time, I hope to connect this to the overall direction of policing in Canada. In Waterloo we are beginning to develop what we would refer to as an economic model of policing. We've talked about the economics of policing, and we've spoken at length about expenditures and revenues and trying to drive down costs and doing things more efficiently. We often get too far ahead of ourselves at times. We don't ask ourselves why. How does this all fit together? I would take it back to one of the reasons why I got into policing in the first place. The purpose of policing is to protect the weak from the strong. Gangs are strong. So is addiction to a substance. The strong can prey on the disenfranchised or the marginalized in our communities. What can we do as a community and in policing to protect the weak from the strong? We often come in contact with the weak. Those are the people we serve, who we need to pay attention to. So when we're looking at the economics of policing and when we think about our clients, the people we come in contact with the most—people living with mental illness, the homeless, the disenfranchised, the marginalized people in our communities, the students—none of them pay property taxes. That is the base from which we get our budgets. So it's very important not to silence our clients and not to look just at the cost of policing. We can get ahead of ourselves by looking at other models. We can look at some of the one-off efficiencies, try to grab the low-hanging fruit, but that won't serve the sustainability of policing in the future. When we look at this committee, we see the great work that can be done at the national level in providing leadership for the overall direction and the sustainability of policing in Canada. If there's one area that I might disagree with Professor Murphy on, it's public policing. There's no such thing as public or private policing; it's policing. There's private security; there isn't public policing. One of the initiatives we're probably proudest of in Waterloo would be our domestic violence project. It's a wraparound approach. We've taken our domestic violence investigators and collocated them with 14 other community partners outside the traditional police service building. We have them housed with sexual assault treatment centres, women's crisis shelters, crown attorneys, counselling services. We anticipated and realized a 20% increase in calls for service on domestic incidents alone in the initial stages of this initiative.We also noticed...and the impetus for us to do this was that about three and a half murders a year were related to domestic violence. We began this project in January 2006 after extensive research. We went all over the world and took the best practices from many different areas: San Diego, Calgary, the U.K., Ottawa. We pulled them all together and created the family violence project. We are now averaging less than one homicide per year related to domestic violence—a significant reduction. We look at it as homicide prevention. (0900) To do this, we had to look at data. We had to look at the evidence in front of us before we could make a decision on what we needed for our community. Right now, we're starting to see the beginnings of a national initiative to have more research, more evidence, more data in front of us. We look at outcome evaluations of some of the projects and initiatives that were undertaken, and as a result of that, we're starting to inform our business decisions in policing.Some of that evidence-based decision-making comes in the form of weekly or monthly reports that we, as police leaders, receive. We use these to analyze the work that's being done. Currently in Waterloo, we're developing an impaired driving dashboard. We're working with a software company to put technology in the hands of our front-line officers. When they log on to their mobile workstation, the map of their zone comes up and through a pick list they can actually see where all of the hotspots are, where most of the collisions have occurred because of impaired driving. We can then deploy properly.We also have another software program we are putting all of our data into. It's a queuing model, and as a result of it we now deploy based on where we're needed, so that we have the right number of people in the right place at the right time.All of this is to ensure optimum efficiency, but none of it comes together unless we have all of the evaluation pieces, the investment in some of the tools, and an analysis of the work being done. This is what it takes to determine the value of policing. What we're trying to do is demonstrate a return on investment for our community. It's the last piece that I want to touch on now, the community.At the core of all of this, be it a new model for policing, a new governance model, different oversight, mileposts, measurements, community or provincial or national direction—all of this speaks to creating the lighthouse, a beacon for us to move towards. We want to look at this ecosystem of work, which is a very comprehensive business. We take the research, apply it to some of the tools, and build capacity within our organizations. We develop leaders. We make sure that we can demonstrate a return on investment. We do this by assessing what we have. We need strong plans to build the data sets that inform the decisions we make on investments. This ongoing process really is an ecosystem. It ensures the sustainability of this profession, and it ensures that we are addressing public safety concerns in our community.I have the good fortune of sitting on a number of committees. One of these is the Police Executive Research Forum of the Canadian Association Chiefs of Police. You've heard from Deputy Minister Dale McFee, and I'm fortunate enough to be sitting on his expert advisory council in Saskatchewan. In Ontario, we have a Future of Policing Advisory Committee, and as the immediate past president of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, I sit on that committee. I also co-chair the National Police Services Advisory Committee and the Police Information and Statistics, POLIS, committee with the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics. It's the last one that's really important. We have to start challenging some of the stats and ask ourselves if we are capturing these statistics in the proper way.We hear a lot of discussion and debate about whether crime is up or down. What we've endeavoured to do at the POLIS committee is to index crime. What we know is that the complexity and severity of crime is increasing in some communities across Canada. It's very important for us to drill down and see if we need to capture more statistics on the crimes that are occurring.(0905) I'd be happy to answer some of your questions afterwards. I hope I've enabled you to have some sort of picture of what we're trying to develop in Waterloo with respect to the economics of policing.CostsCrime rateDomestic violenceEconomic analysisHomicideImpaired drivingInformation collectionPolice servicesRegional Municipality of WaterlooValue for moneyWaterloo Regional Police ServiceRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0905)[English]Thank you very much for your statement.We'll now begin with an opening round of questions of seven minutes, starting on the government side with Ms. Bergen.MatthewTorigianCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen (Portage—Lisgar, CPC): (0905)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Good morning to the witnesses. Thank you both for being here this morning.We've been engaged in this study for several months. We've had a lot of very good information provided to us on best practices by different police organizations that are doing fantastic work and by academics. We have heard from provinces like the Yukon, which has laid out a common ground plan, and we've heard some really good ideas. Some of the committee travelled to the U.K., some to California and parts of Canada. I was one who went to the U.K. It was an interesting exercise. The federal government in the U.K. provides the majority of the funding and provides an overall direction for the police departments. I think there are 43 different districts in the U.K. Each of them has been policing as a little individual unit, so when the federal government said to them that they had to cut 20% from their budget.... Then there were some political changes, whereby they now have commissioners who are elected, possibly to help carry the heat and also to provide ideas. We saw that the federal Home Office has, as you said, Professor Murphy, a small research department in which they determine value for money in policing. Also, there seems to be quite a large involvement of KPMG with various police districts with respect to efficiencies. So we have seen a lot of interesting things here at home and abroad. What I'm looking at, and we are all, I think, starting to notice and wonder about, is how the federal government in Canada can bring all of this together and what we can do to provide something that is within our mandate as the federal government, because policing is not a federal issue. Add to this that we have municipalities and cities—Chief Torigian is here representing Waterloo—and we also have first nations. What we're seeing is that first nations policing is over the top, in terms of policing cost per person. I want to ask you, with all of that—first of all, Professor Murphy—what realistic role you see the federal government in Canada playing. I'd like to ask you to keep in mind the fact that, for example, in the U.K., where it seems that they're pretty effectively cutting 20% off, they are doing it with almost a very professional business model, bringing in the professionals—the KPMGs of this world—and asking, just as any business would, how do we make cuts and still run a solid business?With that in mind, Professor Murphy—I'm going to ask you first, and then go to the chief from Waterloo—what role do you see the federal government playing in bringing this all together? I'll leave that with you.CostsGovernment assistancePolice servicesResearch and researchersRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopher-MurphyInterventionDr. Christopher Murphy: (0910)[English]I think most people in the Canadian police community recognize that while there are institutions and provinces and capacities and innovations going on across the country, there is no central research policy centre that coordinates, that communicates, that doesn't necessarily dictate but in a sense simply allows the decentred nature of Canadian policing to flourish without being parochial and local and failing to learn, while duplicating each other's efforts. Some kind of national policy research centre that would provide information, perhaps research support, is needed. I think there is a victims' centre in Public Safety Canada that took this initiative. I worked in a unit within the federal government at one stage that had four or five people whose job it was to facilitate and communicate research and fund research nationally. That was the research unit of the Solicitor General. I was responsible in those days for community policing. We were very successful simply by supporting and spreading information and knowledge to the Canadian police community, which the Canadian police community took up. They also funded, by the way, centres of criminology to fund police-related research initiatives. So there is a central leadership role, which doesn't have to dictate—it's more a networking and communications and best practices model, which I think could be created—and there are a number of models out there that could be looked at.But I'll hand this over to the chief, because I'm sure he has some significant ideas about this himself.CostsGovernment assistancePolice servicesResearch and researchersCandiceBergenPortage—LisgarMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0910)[English] Thank you. I'm not sure they're significant, but I certainly do have ideas. I think one of the areas would be continuing to provide leadership in the area of perhaps some guiding principles and a framework for sustaining policing in Canada, not necessarily having to throw dollars at it, but in fact ensuring that we're all speaking the same language, that we have the right common visions and values for what we're looking for with respect to providing policing in all of our communities, regardless of whether it's a first nations community up in the territories or a strong urban centre in one of the more populated areas in Canada.So it's those guiding principles, that framework, and perhaps a model, and an economic model, on how this all comes together and how it all works. I would resist the urge to try to grab some low-hanging fruit or hear what's happening in another area of the world and look at that as the panacea to finding a solution to whatever may be the cause.I was fortunate enough to be part of a study group with Mark Potters—who's here today as well—from Public Safety Canada, when 12 or 13 of us went across to the U.K. and took a long, hard look at all of the reforms that were and are going on over there. We had an opportunity to speak with a number of people involved in those reforms.I would hesitate to look at the U.K. as a solution by cutting 20%, because I can tell you that they're spending an awful lot of money where we cut many, many years ago. They're staffed at levels that we haven't seen in Canada for decades.There are so many different approaches and models out there. I think from a national level, it's providing that leadership in the form of a beacon, of guiding principles for what we expect policing to deliver in every community for every Canadian, and ensuring that there is a framework of some sort in place. If that framework were an economic model, I think it would help lead us as police leaders.I hear what Professor Murphy is saying about research. I think it's critically important. I'm not sure it needs to be in a central location. There are many advantages to having this free market of research out there that can be generated from a number of different areas, with perhaps different and maybe even competing interests but allowing police leaders the capacity to look at that research and make some informed decisions.CostsGovernment assistancePolice servicesChristopherMurphyRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0915)[English]Thank you very much.Unfortunately, there is no more time for this round.[Translation]Ms. Michaud, you have the floor.MatthewTorigianÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud (Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, NDP): (0915)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.I thank our two witnesses for appearing before us today.My first question is for Mr. Murphy.During your presentation, you suggested it was time for Canada to start rethinking its current policing model. This has been mentioned during the committee's travels. We had the opportunity to go and see what is being done in Great Britain and in the United States. Moreover, we were able to see what is happening here in Calgary and in Prince Albert, among other places. We were able to see the HUB and COR models in action, which you must be familiar with.Are these the kinds of models you are thinking of when you talk about controlling costs better and using resources more efficiently while providing effective services to the population?CostsPolice servicesStaffingValue for moneyWork-based trainingRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopher-MurphyInterventionDr. Christopher Murphy: (0915)[English]Absolutely, but I think the notion is that we have limited police resources under the current model, and that there may be ways to use them more effectively and efficiently by rethinking some of the assumptions that underlie that model, such as the notion that we need uniformed and empowered police officers to deliver the full range of police services out there, when in fact there are many aspects to what police do: either some variation of a fully sworn, fully empowered police officer could do it, as in the community service office model in the U.K., or increased civilianization—in some cases, some limited cases, perhaps even privatization. That's one model, then: a new way of rethinking the various police functions instead of a generalist model. Some more specialized views of policing and the skill requirements would allow police to recruit more broadly, etc. I don't think there's any one answer to the question. I'm not sure the English model is central or even relevant, but what I don't think we have is.... We have various places trying different things, and we have no sense of coordination or national purpose.I wasn't actually suggesting that we create a centre that then does all the research and assessment of these innovations and new ideas, but that we develop some connected capacity in Canada with some kind of leadership role. Then we can look at these innovations and say, yes, these are really effective, they do work, and maybe it should be part of some national agenda, as opposed to an individual police department or a local jurisdiction.I'm not sure if that answers your question.CostsPolice servicesValue for moneyÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud: (0920)[Translation]Yes, thank you very much.Chief Torigian, you touched on the same issue during your presentation. Would you like to add something to what Mr. Murphy has said?CostsPolice servicesChristopherMurphyMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0920)[English] I'm sorry, the translation wasn't working, but I caught some of what you were asking.ÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud: (0920)[English]I was asking if you wanted to comment or add anything to what Mr. Murphy said, because you did talk about that a bit in your own presentation.CostsPolice servicesMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0920)[English] I would agree with Professor Murphy. I understand and agree with his vision of where and how that research could get developed and the connection that needs to occur right across Canada to ensure that all police leaders have access to it. One of the areas that I think is very important when we're talking about the sustainability of policing, and looking at different models or methods by which we deliver our services, what is going to be key to all of this is the new recruit: the training, the education, and the recruitment of the new generation of police officers.Again, Public Safety Canada has looked at this as a fallout from the summit in January, and it is looking at new ways to train this new cohort, this new generation of police officers who someday will be the leaders of the future. We have to ask ourselves, are we recruiting the right people, and are we doing it the right way? And how are we training and what are the qualifications? I sit on the Ontario Police College General Investigation Training Advisory Committee, and we are looking at the training period. Is it time for there to be a professional designation for policing? If that's the case, what do we need to get there? Is it a degree? Is it a diploma? Right now the minimum requirement is still grade 12 and you go down to the police college for 12 weeks after you get hired by a police service. I'm not sure that's the right model for what our expectations are for police officers today.In fact, it's not reality either. We're hiring those with any type of post-secondary education, and very often we're hiring new recruits with master's degrees. The complexity of this job has grown. Thankfully, it didn't work when I was going through that you had to be six foot four and come off a farm and be able to fight your way out of a bar. That's not today's recruit; it's not what is necessary for today's police officer.CostsPolice servicesStaffingValue for moneyWork-based trainingÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud: (0920)[Translation]You told us about a project that is more focused on the problem of domestic violence.Do you have any projects or programs that are more focused on youth at risk of becoming involved with gangs or criminal activities?CostsCrime preventionPolice servicesStreet gangsYoung peopleMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0920)[English]Yes, we have partnered with our local crime prevention council. It's a crime prevention council that is extremely successful; it is really a table that has been set with a number of community stakeholders and representatives from a cross-section of disciplines right throughout our entire community.As a result of the work they've done, and in partnering with us, what they're trying to do is generate programming where they can get out in front of, and identify, at-risk youth. Perhaps somebody who has a sibling who's been involved in a gang...get to them and create opportunities to direct them in a different direction. It's called inREACH, and it's an anti-gang program that's going on in Waterloo right now.But to speak to Professor Murphy's earlier point, the evaluation of these programs is difficult. Even with this particular program, inREACH, there are differing views as to whether it's successful. What we really need is some very sound academically based research or outcomes evaluation that would inform us as to whether or not these in fact work. What we're doing in Waterloo as well is we've partnered with a number of other agencies and police services in putting into place a Saskatchewan HUB model. It's a focus on health, because we know the social determinants of health overlap with the determinants of crime, and we're seeing an overlap there. We're focusing in on health, and again our goal is to get upstream and intervene upstream with a number of people before they come into contact with us, because we know that if they're coming into contact with us, they're coming into contact with emergency wards and other social services.CostsCrime preventionPolice servicesStreet gangsYoung peopleÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0925)[English] Thank you very much.Now we return to the government side.Mr. Hawn, for seven minutes.MatthewTorigianLaurieHawnHon.Edmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31267LaurieHawnHon.Laurie-HawnEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/HawnLaurie_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Laurie Hawn (Edmonton Centre, CPC): (0925)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here.We've heard a lot over the last several months, but I think, as with a lot of things, it comes down to time. Theoretically you can always get more money, you can always get more people, but what you can't ever do, of course, is get more time. If it's difficult to get money and people, then we'd better make the best use of our time. That goes back to doing the research, where are we applying our focus and effort, and so on. Chief, you talked about challenging stats, because obviously we could be going down the wrong road if we don't understand the stats we're faced with, that we're basing our decisions on. Can you give me an example of some of the statistics that we should be challenging, or that you're challenging?CostsCrime ratePolice servicesResearch and researchersRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0925)[English]Right now we're exploring the manner in which we collect some of the data. As an example, whenever an incident in a community occurs and there are elements of crime to it, it gets coded. It's a code. It's called a UCR, uniform crime reporting. If there is more than one criminal act that took place within that one incident, we assign corresponding codes, only to a maximum of four. Yet we have had incidences where 30 crimes have occurred. It's important to look at changing the manner in which we capture this, so that we can get a true appreciation of not only the volume but also the complexity of crime—because volume is only one aspect and not the only one—and track this over the years. Right now we're seeing 20 crimes that occur within one incident. Many years ago that wouldn't have taken place. This all connects, because it informs us of what we're starting to understand and what we've understood for some time. But research can bear this out as well. Criminals don't specialize. We do, but they don't. There may be more than one criminal act within one particular incident, so we need to be certain that when we're looking at crime stats, we are in fact capturing the data the right way.Another way we are challenging ourselves and educating ourselves as police leaders around this, going back to an earlier question around what can happen nationally—auditing is something that perhaps we need a little bit more of at CCJS. Right now, we currently see a bunch of different approaches to responding to criminal acts right across Canada. I'll do this quickly. You could stagger out of a bar in New Brunswick and get into a fight, then drive to Alberta and graffiti a building, and then get to British Columbia and smash your car because you're impaired, and you might not ever generate a criminal occurrence that gets coded. If you do it in reverse, you would then get three. We need to ensure that we are consistent in the way we're capturing data and statistics right across the country. That's part of the work that I'm part of, that we are all part of, with the Police Information and Statistics Committee. CostsCrime ratePolice servicesResearch and researchersLaurieHawnHon.Edmonton CentreLaurieHawnHon.Edmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31267LaurieHawnHon.Laurie-HawnEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/HawnLaurie_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Laurie Hawn: (0925)[English]Thank you.Professor, could you give me a brief answer? You talked a little bit about importing policies from the U.K., or wherever, and obviously some are good and some are bad. Can you give me just a quick example of a good policy that we've imported and an example of a bad policy that we've imported?Community policingCostsPolice servicesUnited KingdomMatthewTorigianChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopher-MurphyInterventionDr. Christopher Murphy: (0925)[English]I think we're experimenting with the community service officer model. I understand B.C. is recruiting officers who will be in uniform but not have powers of arrest. They will be visible, in terms of walking the public streets, etc. I don't know yet if that's a good model or not, and I think one of the things that we need to develop is the capacity to assess these when we put them in place, so that we can say it worked or it didn't work. To me, that has potential, but I don't actually know whether it's going to be an effective model in Canada.If I could, I'll just say something about the last point. I think we sometimes focus way too much on crime. The issue of public safety is something that crime stats don't measure very well. I was thinking about the initiative that we're involved in, in downtown Halifax, which is about bars, assaults, and disorder in the public downtown. It's a huge issue. There are very few crime stats generated by this, but it's a policing problem. There are very few crime-related issues with anti-terrorism, but it is a new and demanding area for police. Public order policing.... None of these things actually have any actual crimes attached to them. So I think we need to go beyond crime data and say that police actually have a variety of other areas of demand, which we can also develop metrics for. But I think sometimes crime is way too narrow a focus.Community policingCostsPolice servicesUnited KingdomLaurieHawnHon.Edmonton CentreLaurieHawnHon.Edmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31267LaurieHawnHon.Laurie-HawnEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/HawnLaurie_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Laurie Hawn: (0930)[English] I'd question the assessment that terrorism doesn't include crimes. Anyway, I'd like to get brief comments from both of you, if I can, because I don't have too much time left. We have a lot of police bodies across the country. Professor, you've been involved with some of them from a more academic point of view, and Chief, it sounds like you've been involved with most of them from a practical, hands-on point of view. Do we have too many? Are we lacking focus? Is there something we can do between those bodies to bring some of this focus together for things like a national vision about policing and training and so on?Chief, I'll start with you. CostsPolice servicesChristopherMurphyMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0930)[English]I was hoping the professor would answer first. Do you want to go, Chris, or do you want me to?LaurieHawnHon.Edmonton CentreChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopher-MurphyInterventionDr. Christopher Murphy: (0930)[English]Sure. I think we have a variety of groups that represent different interests in policing, from police boards, police associations, and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. I don't know that we're going to be able to get rid of them, in a sense, but I think they have to develop partnerships and recognize that they're all in this enterprise together. I think that's beginning to happen. To some extent, I think these were not coordinated, and they were often in conflict with one another. If Canada is to pull this together and maintain the kind of reputation we have for policing, we will have to see more working partnerships between these different interest groups. Maybe the government can provide some leadership in that.I'll leave it at that. CostsPolice servicesMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0930)[English]I think your question is very poignant because right now this is what police leaders struggle with: How many police officers do I need, and do I have too many or too few?Again, because I'm proud of the work we've done, and not because I'm trying to suggest we're further ahead than anyone else, in the last five years we've re-engineered our entire organization and introduced a queueing model that enables us to determine exactly.... I can answer that question, and I can tell you exactly how many police officers I need and what I'm doing with them. But the question that needs to be answered is, what do you want us to do? It's not enough to say we have too many or too few, unless we know exactly what our mission is. That's where, in the core of this economic model, rests the community, the governance, the oversight, the values, the principles, and the direction in which we're headed. To Professor Murphy's earlier point, he is absolutely right that 75% of our patrol response is to non-criminal offences. What we're doing at the national level right now is toying with the idea that while we have uniform crime reporting, maybe we need uniform calls for service reporting as well, so we can really capture exactly the work that's being done. CostsPolice servicesChristopherMurphyRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0930)[English]Thank you very much. You're now out of time. We'll turn to Mr. Scarpaleggia for seven minutes. MatthewTorigianFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): (0930)[English]I will continue with that uniform call for service. I'm not quite sure what that means, as opposed to uniform crime statistics. Can you elaborate on that before I go to my round of questioning?CostsHealth and social servicesPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0930)[English]Sure. Where we would go to a social disorder call for service is a situation in which somebody living with mental illness is walking down the street in the middle of summer, shirt off, waving their arms, and scaring people in the downtown area. No crime has been committed. We're responding to that call. It's a call for service, as opposed to somebody being assaulted. CostsHealth and social servicesPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0930)[English]Right. I didn't quite get your point about three incidents happening across the country, and then you said something about if you were doing it in reverse it would capture a different conclusion. Could you elaborate on that as well?CostsCrime and criminalityPolice servicesMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0930)[English]Yes. What we have right now in some jurisdictions.... Using New Brunswick as an example, there is a municipality in New Brunswick where they've created a bylaw to avoid having, perhaps, young people who are in university ending up with a criminal record because they ended up fighting in public when they came out of a bar. They created a bylaw to address that. There is nothing wrong with addressing that through a bylaw, but it still needs to be captured as a criminal offence. CostsCrime and criminalityPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0930)[English]Oh, it still needs to be captured. CostsPolice servicesMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0930)[English]It's a criminal offence. Or, for example, in British Columbia provincial law enables an officer to suspend a driver's licence at the side of the road after a person blows “fail” on a roadside device. Instead of charging them with a criminal offence of impaired driving, they're handled through a provincial statute that suspends their licence for 90 days or longer and impounds their vehicle. It's a provincial statute. It's still a criminal offence, and we need to capture that and code it as a criminal offence, but it can be dealt with by way of another statute. CostsCrime and criminalityPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0935)[English] We're not capturing it as a criminal....CostsPolice servicesMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0935)[English]We are missing some of these crimes because they are not being captured consistently across Canada.CostsPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0935)[English]You mentioned you're hiring police officers with postgraduate degrees. This must be putting upward pressure on costs. As you recruit people with more advanced education, presumably you must pay more, or no?CostsPolice servicesStaffingWork-based trainingMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0935)[English]No. There are set grids that are established through collective agreements and they are consistent.CostsPolice servicesStaffingWork-based trainingFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0935)[English]I thought you brought some really new ideas to the table here that I don't recall hearing, though we have, of course, heard from the Calgary police force and the Prince Albert police force.Contrasting and comparing, are you doing what they are doing? Are you doing certain things differently? Are you doing some things that they are not doing? How would you contrast and compare what you're doing, which seems to be very leading-edge, with what they are doing, which is leading-edge? Are you all doing the same thing in a leading-edge way, or are you...? Can you learn from each other because you're doing different things?Community policingCostsPolice servicesMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0935)[English]Yes. It's really the cadence of moving forward and being progressive. What Dale McFee did in Prince Albert was leading-edge, and it was necessary for Prince Albert, given what they were dealing with on the ground there.We build on that, and in the true spirit of community policing—community-based or community-focused policing—you customize it to what your needs are at the local level. We develop and initiate or innovate, and then we share, because that is what we do. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and all of the provincial associations of chiefs of police work very closely together to share innovative ideas and initiatives, so that we can learn from each other and then take that back to our home town and ensure it's responsive to whatever our local needs are.Community policingCostsPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0935)[English]Do you have some kind of hub and spoke model as well?CostsPolice servicesMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0935)[English]We have it with respect to our family violence project, and now we are incorporating some of the recidivist offender profiles that have been developed as a result of some technology through programming, what we've learned from Saskatchewan, and at the same time building on what we're seeing locally.CostsPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0935)[English]In your view, can innovative approaches to policing reduce recidivism rates?CostsPolice servicesRecidivistsMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0935)[English]Absolutely.CostsPolice servicesRecidivistsFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0935)[English]Which reduces the demand for police services and all the way down the line.You're also doing some economic modelling, which I hadn't heard in our testimony. I don't recall hearing other police forces saying they are doing some pretty advanced economic modelling. Maybe they did and I missed it.Are you sort of out in the lead in that particular aspect?CostsEconomic analysisPolice servicesValue for moneyMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0935)[English]I think what's happening is that we're all doing parts of it. One of the initiatives we're undertaking in our organization is to try to put some framework to it, try to create almost a visioning model or document, a communication tool. Again, it speaks to the capacity building that's necessary within our own police services.Some day I'm going to leave this position, and I want to ensure that whoever is coming up can continue and carry that ball forward.CostsEconomic analysisPolice servicesValue for moneyFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0935)[English]Do you use your economic or cost-benefit analyses when you negotiate with the town council, if that's the way it works when you negotiate your budget with the city? You bring all this and say, “Look, we've put more money in here, but murder rates are down and so on.” You use that, of course.I was reading something very interesting a little while ago about how cities now, governments in general, are just overflowing with data, which they can't even really analyze and so on. In the U.S., and I'll just read a little quote, if I may—CostsPolice servicesMatthewTorigianRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0940)[English]Briefly, Mr. Scarpaleggia.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (0940)[English]It says:As cities also start to look back at historical data, fascinating discoveries are being made. Mike Flowers, the chief analytics officer in New York, says that if a property has a tax lien on it there is a ninefold increase in the chance of a catastrophic fire there. And businesses that have broken licensing rules are far more likely to be selling cigarettes smuggled into the city in order to avoid paying local taxes. Over in Chicago, the city knows with mathematical precision that when it gets calls complaining about rubbish bins in certain areas, a rat problem will follow a week later.Is this sort of the direction you're going in?CostsPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0940)[English] Unfortunately, Mr. Scarpaleggia, you've taken all your time with the question. [Translation]I will now give the floor to Mr. Rousseau, for five minutes.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJeanRousseauCompton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58637JeanRousseauJean-RousseauCompton—StansteadNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RousseauJean_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Jean Rousseau (Compton—Stanstead, NDP): (0940)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.I thank both of our witnesses for being with us here this morning.My first question is for Mr. Murphy.As a professor of anthropology, you must have done an analysis of our police forces that takes the demographic aspect and the resistance to change into account. What we are discussing is improving the effectiveness and efficiency of our front-line resources without endangering public and national safety.Given the culture of resistance to change within the police forces, how should we make changes with a view to moving to a new model, while being sensitive to this culture and not harming it? Despite this resistance to change, people want to serve. They are still very proud of their police force.How, in your opinion, could we make these changes?CostsPolice officersPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaChristopherMurphyChristopherMurphyChristopher-MurphyInterventionDr. Christopher Murphy: (0940)[English]That's a challenging question. I think we're at a stage now where all police, whether they're managers, front-line police officers, or union members, have begun to realize that their organization is, to some extent, under siege both financially and in the expansion of demand. I think some police departments work more collaboratively than others. Others are not, in a sense, working together towards the same goals. But I think the involvement of the rank and file and the police associations will be central to any significant change in the way police work is done. Without their involvement, without persuading them that it's in their interests and in the interests of policing in general and the services they provide, they'll simply diminish in importance and effectiveness, and that change is actually going to sustain policing and make it healthier. I believe all of those things, but it does take a while. There is a new openness now to discussing issues about change, and doing things differently, that didn't exist before. I don't really have any magic strategy or solution, other than let's open up a discussion and conversation and inform it with information. I believe people will make changes. Perhaps the chief has some thoughts on this.CostsPolice officersPolice servicesJeanRousseauCompton—StansteadJeanRousseauCompton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58637JeanRousseauJean-RousseauCompton—StansteadNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RousseauJean_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Jean Rousseau: (0940)[Translation]Thank you very much.Mr. Torigian, despite all of that, are intergenerational conflicts and the assignment of duties not the main obstacles? We need police officers who have 35 years of experience in the field, to exercise leadership with younger officers, among other things. The young recruits have a very different mentality, regarding information technologies alone.In that context, how should assignments be distributed, in your opinion? CostsPolice officersPolice servicesChristopherMurphyMatthewTorigianMatthewTorigianMatthew-TorigianInterventionChief Matthew Torigian: (0940)[English]The actual work a police officer is engaged in over the years hasn't necessarily changed to any great extent. Some of the tools and what we're doing have changed. The way I describe it in my own organization is, the raw material for policing is still the same: it's information. That's the business we're in. We cannot do anything without information. Then we need to process it, mine it, and change it, and turn it into something. The skills required to take information and do something with it, and some of the tools we use in doing that, have changed over the years, but the actual task is the same. So it's very important, in some respects in certain positions within an organization, to still start in front-line policing and patrol, and generate the necessary skills that will eventually let you take information in a more sophisticated way and do something more with it. There is the thought that we can start civilianizing specialized tasks a little bit differently in policing. For example, in forensic identification, do you necessarily need to be a front-line police officer and work your way through for 10 or 15 years before you go into forensic identification? Again, I think there are many models out there, some in the United States, some in the U.K., where they're experimenting with that. On your point around the multi-generational workforce we have, and the different people who come in, and how you lead that change in organization, I think it boils down to leadership. That leadership exists at many different levels. My personal leadership style is to lead from the middle, to build the capacity at the middle of the organization. I can have all the greatest ideas and directives in the world, but if I don't have a cohort of people who are engaged and who want to do the same thing, it gets clogged in the middle.CostsPolice officersPolice servicesJeanRousseauCompton—StansteadRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0945)[English] Unfortunately, Chief Torigian, I'm going to have to stop you there. This concludes the time for our first panel. I'd like to thank both of our witnesses for being with us this morning and for their very valuable testimony.We will suspend for three minutes to allow our next panel of witnesses to take their seats.Thank you.(0945)(0945)MatthewTorigianRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0945)[English]We are coming back to order here for our second panel of witnesses this morning. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Mark Potter, director general of the policing policy directorate, law enforcement and policing branch; and Rachel Huggins, the acting director of RCMP policy. Good morning, and thank you for being here. I know we call on Public Safety quite often, but it is the public safety committee. We always appreciate having you here and your contributions.I'm not sure if you each have a 10-minute opening statement or how you wish to proceed....CostsPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter (Director General, Policing Policy Directorate, Law Enforcement and Policing Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): (0945)[English] We'll be making one 10-minute opening statement.The Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): Please go ahead.Mr. Mark Potter: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Good morning to everyone. It's a great pleasure to appear before this committee again and to speak with you about the economics of policing. As mentioned, I am joined this morning by my colleague, Rachel Huggins.We've been following your work very closely and are pleased at the engagement of parliamentarians on this important issue and the wide range of impressive witnesses you have heard from during the course of your deliberations. We look forward to your report and believe that it will make a significant contribution to the work under way on the economics of policing and, most importantly, towards the future of policing in Canada.Since we last met, there have been a number of developments. I'd like to take this opportunity to update you on those developments, as well as talk about the way forward.First, however, I'd like to provide some brief background. The Minister of Public Safety has been providing strong leadership on the economics of policing. He has been engaged with all of his federal, provincial, and territorial colleagues through recent meetings of FPT ministers of justice and public safety to collectively advance this issue.The work under way on the economics of policing is based on the following three commitments agreed to by all FPT ministers: first, to convene a summit on the economics of policing; second, to promote information sharing on policies and practices that improve the efficiency and effectiveness of policing; and third, to develop a shared forward agenda or strategy for policing in Canada.The development of a shared forward agenda is a unique opportunity for governments to continue to demonstrate collective leadership. Such leadership can help contribute to the evolution of policing in Canada at a time of fiscal constraints and heightened public expectations.As you know, the summit took place in January 2013. The summit was hosted by the Minister of Public Safety on behalf of all FPT justice and public safety ministers. The summit set out to meet three objectives: first, increase awareness of the economics of policing; second, provide practical information on how to improve efficiency and effectiveness; and third, get ahead of the issue so that we can take well-considered actions and avoid the drastic policing cuts being faced in some jurisdictions.The summit was attended by over 250 participants from across Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and several other countries. Both formal and informal feedback on the summit was very positive. It achieved the objectives of awareness, practical information, and getting ahead of the issue. It also conveyed strong collective government leadership. A report on the summit is available on the Public Safety Canada website.In fact, the summit and other developments, including the work of this committee, appear to have accelerated interest both in the issue of the economics of policing and, most fundamentally, the pace of police reform. The development of a shared forward agenda is intended to continue that momentum of change.The closing session of the summit laid out a framework for advancing the issue of the economics of policing that is oriented around the three pillars of transformation. These are: one, efficiencies within police services; two, new models of community safety; and three, efficiencies within the justice system.These pillars are underpinned by evaluation and validation of best practices, strengthened research, and of course engagement. The goal of the strategy is increasingly efficient and effective policing.For the strategy to be successful, it must respect jurisdictional responsibilities for policing and it must be inclusive of the entire policing community and other key stakeholders. The goal, put simply, is to identify those areas where it makes sense to cooperate collectively. Engagement and consultation on the shared forward agenda are intended to flesh out this framework with proposed short- and medium-term actions.The consultation plan is rolling out over spring and summer 2013. This process is being driven by all governments, notably through deputy minister and assistant deputy minister level policing and public safety committees. A core group composed of Public Safety Canada and the three champion provinces—Ontario, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia—will be taking the lead in identifying and developing specific actions for consideration by ministers.In order to ensure that we get a broad base of input toward the shared forward agenda, we have put together a steering committee comprising this core group of federal and provincial government officials, along with key representatives of the policing community. The heads of the three national policing associations, representing front-line officers, chiefs, and boards, are on this steering committee, as well as an academic expert in policing, Professor Curt Griffiths of Simon Fraser University.In addition to the development of the shared forward agenda, as directed by ministers, an index of police initiatives is being finalized as a tool to facilitate information sharing and learning from one another. The index is truly a collaborative effort by governments and police services across the country. We believe it is the first of its kind in Canada. The index brings together over 150 innovative initiatives, activities, and best practices in one database and will make them broadly accessible through a user-friendly search engine and on-line interface. I think many Canadians will be surprised at the many innovative policing reforms that are already under way in Canada and from which we can all learn. A number of the witnesses before this committee have referred to such innovative practices, such as the use of integrated teams to assist in responding to calls that involve individuals with mental health challenges, among many others. (0950)In addition to such information sharing, policing transformation and innovation must be founded upon a solid base of evidence and research if it is to be successful. However, as noted earlier this morning, currently in Canada there is a limited policing-related research capacity, no central repository of accessible research information, and no agreement within the policing community on research priorities. A key aspect of the shared forward agenda will be to address such shortcomings.In order to begin that process, Public Safety Canada has commissioned certain baseline research projects. Projects under way are reviewing policing research in Canada, use of performance measures, international comparisons of policing strategies, and the costs of police training in Canada. Moreover, there is a major long-term research project under way on the future of Canadian policing. This project is being led by the Council of Canadian Academies and is assessing how policing is organized and delivered in Canada. The project is being undertaken by a number of eminent Canadian and international researchers. This independent study is expected to be released in late 2014 or early 2015. In addition to strengthening research, another early focus of the work currently under way is on improving police training. A lot of money, as you know, is spent on police training, and the focus tends to be on costly and time-consuming traditional in-class approaches. Such approaches, as you have heard, are not always well-suited to the technology-based learning styles familiar to most new police recruits. Therefore, another short-term action will be to convene a two-day training summit with the Canadian Police Knowledge Network in September 2013. The workshop will bring together a wide range of participants to explore issues and approaches and help set priorities related to police training going forward. Building on the index of innovative policing initiatives, Public Safety Canada will continue to advance information sharing through its economics of policing website. The website will act as a key portal to broadly disseminate policing information and research and to provide updates on activities related to the economics of policing. To recap, in terms of next steps, we will soon finalize the index. There will be a training summit in P.E.I. in September, and based on the ongoing consultations, we will present the shared forward agenda to ministers in fall 2013 for their consideration. The outcome of this committee's deliberations will, I understand, also be released this fall. Such timing would allow all governments to benefit from and draw upon your findings as we collectively shape the way forward. That concludes the presentation. Your questions and comments would be most welcome.Thank you very much.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessFederal-provincial-territorial relationsInformation collectionInformation disseminationPolice servicesPublic consultationResearch and researchersWeb sitesWork-based trainingRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (0955)[English]Thank you very much.Ms. Bergen.MarkPotterCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (0955)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm going to begin, but I think I'm going to share my time with Mr. Wilks. I think he had some questions. Thank you very much for being here. Mr. Potter, I'm sorry, did you say there were three different things that have come out of the report? One is the index that you referred to, the second is the training summit, and was there a third? CostsPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (0955)[English]Yes, the third is the development of a shared forward agenda or strategy for policing. CostsPolice servicesCandiceBergenPortage—LisgarCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (0955)[English]Thank you.Can you talk a little more about the index? I think that's something we've heard a lot of recommendations on and something that is a very concrete thing the federal government can do. Can you talk a little more about the information, the index, as well as the website and where you're at with that? Just describe it a little more. Then I'm going to pass it on to Mr. Wilks.Thank you.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (0955)[English] The purpose of the index is basically to recognize that there are a lot of interesting and innovative activities happening across Canada. Of course, we're looking at the U.K., at Australia, and at the U.S., but there's a lot going on in Canada, so why not take the opportunity to learn from what we're doing right here and what works?A number of provinces and police services have been pulling together information on things that have been happening at the local level over the past seven to eight months to improve policing to better serve their communities. They've compiled these into 150 different examples, and a number of these have actually been validated by researchers as best practices. That information is also related to these initiatives. So if police services are thinking they want to improve in a certain area, this allows them to go into this database, enter search criteria, and find out what's happening in other parts of the country in those areas that they can learn from. There'll be contact and detailed information on the project or the initiative, so they can get more information, dig more deeply, and essentially learn from what's going on right across Canada.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesCandiceBergenPortage—LisgarCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (1000)[English] Is it up and running already?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1000)[English]The data has all been pulled together. Right now, we're at the stage of working with our IT folks to make it as user-friendly as possible. We're hopeful. We'll be going through our internal departmental processes to get approval to release this, but we're hopeful that towards the end of the summer it will be ready to be released. We want to put a product out there that's as user-friendly as possible. That's the goal.CostsPolice servicesCandiceBergenPortage—LisgarCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (1000)[English]It would be through the Public Safety website? Or would it be absolutely its own website, as I know they have in the States?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1000)[English]With our IT people, we're still working through exactly how that will line up. We're hoping that the economics of policing website would be the key portal for that. As to whether it has the capacity to handle that, we're still sorting that out, but there will definitely be links through that website to this index.CostsPolice servicesCandiceBergenPortage—LisgarCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (1000)[English]Thank you very much.MarkPotterRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1000)[English]Mr. Wilks, you have about five minutes.CandiceBergenPortage—LisgarDavidWilksKootenay—Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72006DavidWilksDavid-WilksKootenay—ColumbiaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WilksDavid_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. David Wilks (Kootenay—Columbia, CPC): (1000)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the panel for their presentations today.You mentioned in your speech that with regard to the closing session, the summit laid out a framework, as you said, with regard to efficiencies within policing, new models of community safety, and efficiencies within the justice system. That's one thing I want to target today. I wonder if you could explain a bit about the efficiencies in the justice system. I certainly have mine. I would like to hear yours.CostsPolice servicesValue for moneyRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1000)[English]There are a few dimensions to this. There is what's happening federally, through the Department of Justice, to look at procedures and the use of technology in the federal courts system and how they can be made more efficient. There are provincial initiatives. In fact, B.C. has been I think at the forefront in this. They've undertaken a couple of reviews. They now have a white paper. They're implementing change. To the extent that I understand it, they're bringing common management to the justice system to break down some of the silos and allow for efficiencies to be realized. There are things happening on the ground at both the national and the provincial levels. There's also the issue.... I know you've heard about this from the Canadian Police Association, among others, which says quite rightly that the nature of the justice system has imposed certain costs. It has imposed certain requirements on policing, and that has a direct impact on the cost and the time associated with processing crimes, processing offenders, and so on. Another dimension of this is to recognize that things are happening federally and provincially, but also to ensure that those police voices, from front-line officers or from chiefs, are heard and are factored into those ongoing federal and provincial reforms, so that they do not lose sight of ensuring that what they're reforming, what they're changing, also responds to the views, needs, and perspectives of the policing community itself. We're pulling together through this steering committee—and B.C. is actually leading this component—what are those views of the policing community on areas that could be improved.CostsPolice servicesValue for moneyDavidWilksKootenay—ColumbiaDavidWilksKootenay—Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72006DavidWilksDavid-WilksKootenay—ColumbiaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WilksDavid_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. David Wilks: (1000)[English]Certainly in my years of policing, I felt that efficiency versus effectiveness was paramount. The police need to get the job done as quickly as they can, they need to do it as efficiently as they can, and they can't have roadblocks put in front of them. Personally, I think we've researched a lot of things to death. We come up with the same answers, but we don't come up with the efficiency model. I'll give you a good example. In 1973, the RCMP came up with a community policing program. In 1999, they came up with a reinvented community policing program. If you were to put the two together, they would be exactly the same. So we research and we research, but we don't do anything with it. I do like your idea with regard to one database system. A good example is that a lot of police departments in Canada are on PROS, while some are on PRIME. Why do we have two? Why don't we just have one? Could you talk to that a bit, with regard to having one data system? With respect to the perspective of the police, they need to be consistent. They can't have one piece of data here and one piece of data there and think it's going to work, because it doesn't.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1000)[English] I think the challenge is that the policing community and other public services face a way of focusing the mind right now, focusing on how you deliver your operations more effectively. IT is a very good example of that. We saw an example in the U.K.—I think this was mentioned earlier—where there had been these 43 police services. All of them had their own IT systems that didn't always match up. When faced with 20% cuts, they realized that while they didn't necessarily want to have a national IT system—although that may be the direction they ultimately head towards—they certainly said they would look at neighbouring counties and align their IT systems with them, because they're often involved in joint operations with them. They felt they could realize cost savings by having one administrator of their IT system, which would be a shared service between those two counties. I think we're going to see more of that in Canada as we go forward, where there's a recognition of potential cost savings associated with cooperating on certain administrative areas like IT.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesDavidWilksKootenay—ColumbiaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1005)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Potter.We'll now go to the opposition for seven minutes. Mr. Rafferty.MarkPotterJohnRaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy River//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30467JohnRaffertyJohn-RaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy RiverNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RaffertyJohn_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. John Rafferty (Thunder Bay—Rainy River, NDP): (1005)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Mr. Potter, it's nice to see you again, and Ms. Huggins, it's nice to see you also.My first question is for Mr. Potter.One of the things that was missing in your preamble that is not often talked about, although I try to talk about it as much as I can here, is first nations policing, which is a joint federal-provincial responsibility. It's almost half and half. As you are probably aware, on this committee we're sort of at loggerheads, the government side and the opposition side. The government side can correct me if I'm wrong, but generally speaking, the government side is concerned about the cost per capita of first nations policing and it being considerably more than the regular per capita cost of policing. We've heard it a number of times today; we've heard Ms. Bergen talk about that. As you're aware, of course, there are many variables. I don't think there are non-native police services in Canada that have to deal with communities with an 80% addiction rate, for example—those kinds of variables—or flying in, or whatever the case may be. So we're sort of at loggerheads. That's the government's side. I see them shaking their heads, so I must be right in what your main concern is.Voices: Oh, oh!A voice: They're more than shaking their heads.Mr. John Rafferty: Oh, they're shaking their heads the wrong way. Well, we'll straighten that out in a minute.But on this side, and I've said it a number of times, we know there are investments that need to be made to make first nations policing effective, to make it efficient, and to bring it in line with adjacent police services. I'm aware that now some first nations police chiefs are attacking the main costs they have, which are salaries and benefits, and reducing those in a number of instances. Treaty Three is a good example of where that's happening. Of course, that's a self-defeating thing, because you have to keep up with adjacent municipalities and adjacent police services; otherwise you get all your people poached. They get many of their officers poached already, and that's a serious problem.I wonder if you could give us your thoughts on both of those positions, and let us know where the government sits on this. CostsFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1005)[English]I think it's important, as I mentioned, to respect jurisdictional responsibilities, so in the development of the strategy we're ultimately trying to strike a balance between recognizing that provinces are responsible for the administration of justice. That is often delegated to particular communities. Most fundamentally, it's the communities themselves, the clients, the people who pay for the services, who should be setting the priorities and setting the directions for their police services. No two communities are exactly alike. So whether it's a first nations community or any other community across Canada, they have unique needs and unique challenges. It is their role to define those priorities and establish the sorts of police services that they believe will best serve their communities. Having said that, I think the goal of the strategy is to say, “Yes, let's recognize that that's an absolutely core element of the way forward”. But at the same time, you also want to strive to find areas where it makes sense to cooperate, where it makes sense to share services, look at new models of community safety, try different innovations, and improve the efficiency of your operations through applying certain tools, different performance metrics to assess how you're doing. So there are areas where it makes sense to cooperate collectively and there areas where you're going to be acting independently in response to the needs and priorities of your community. CostsFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPolice servicesJohnRaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy RiverJohnRaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy River//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30467JohnRaffertyJohn-RaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy RiverNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RaffertyJohn_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. John Rafferty: (1005)[English]There's a reason, Mr. Potter, that in northern Ontario the OPP were happy to get rid of first nations policing in the far north: they just couldn't keep up with the costs. While I know we're studying the economics of policing, I think we need to also look on the other side and recognize that we have to bring all police services under federal responsibility—that is first nations policing—to the same level as everybody else. Everybody deserves to get the same public safety that everybody else gets in this country. I wonder if the government has done any scientific studies, any proper studies, on first nations, specifically in first nations police service areas—work analytics, workload analytics, that sort of thing—just to see exactly what some of the issues concerning police services are. Or is that something that might happen in the near future?CostsFirst NationsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1010)[English]My colleague, Shawn Tupper, who has previously appeared before this committee, is the ADM responsible for the first nations policing program at Public Safety. He'd be best placed to speak to that.I'm actually appearing this afternoon in Maniwaki at a meeting of the first nations policing panel to talk about this exact topic, the economics of policing. That meeting and those series of meetings with first nations communities is an opportunity to not only allow them to help shape the evolution of the first nations policing program in Canada, but to participate very directly, as they did in the summit and as they do through the national associations, in the evolution of the shared framework of the strategy for policing in Canada.We're looking at finding ways to engage with all participants in the policing community in shaping the way forward. Their often unique needs and unique challenges.... You've certainly heard in this committee, from the RCMP and others, about the challenges and the costs of providing services in the north to first nations communities. They're much higher than elsewhere in Canada. There are a lot of very valid reasons why that's the case. That's why you have the FNPP, to provide that additional funding and support to those communities to ensure that they have a level of policing that's generally comparable to what exists in other parts of the country.That objective is not always achieved. Shawn Tupper would be in a better position to speak to this, but there is a process under way to look at the FNPP to ensure that it is indeed meeting the needs of first nations communities, and to look at how it might need to evolve to better meet those needs. That's the one track. Then there's the whole economics of policing track, and where we go with this strategy. There will clearly be first nations elements of that, and how we better service those communities.CostsFirst NationsPolice servicesJohnRaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy RiverJohnRaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy River//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/30467JohnRaffertyJohn-RaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy RiverNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/RaffertyJohn_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. John Rafferty: (1010)[English]I wonder if Mr. Potter—MarkPotterRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1010)[English]Sorry, you're out of time.I'll turn to the government side again.Ms. Ambler.JohnRaffertyThunder Bay—Rainy RiverStellaAmblerMississauga South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58833StellaAmblerStella-AmblerMississauga SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AmblerStella_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stella Ambler (Mississauga South, CPC): (1010)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much, Mr. Potter and Ms. Huggins, for being here today.I noted with interest the index. I was wondering if that is anything like the United States website, crimesolutions.gov. Is it similar, or will ours be more comprehensive, or less, or completely different? I'm just curious.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1010)[English]It's similar. Imagine a precursor of crimesolutions.gov, which has been evolving over a number of years. It has an administration around it. It has a number of academics who feed into it, who review the operational experiences that are put on crimesolutions.gov. Part of the advantage of crimesolutions.gov is that if you take, for example, a broken window strategy in Boston, it will be implemented, it will be assessed by one or multiple academics over time, and they will put their findings on that website. It's continually evolving, continually refining the analysis around the various initiatives that are under way. If you, as a community, are looking at moving in that direction, you'll know how the program started, you'll know how it's been evaluated, and you'll know probably how it's evolved over time, so that you can implement what is truly the best practice in that particular area going forward.I would see our index as an early version of crimesolutions.gov. You have to walk before you run, and this is the first step in that process.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesStellaAmblerMississauga SouthStellaAmblerMississauga South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58833StellaAmblerStella-AmblerMississauga SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AmblerStella_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stella Ambler: (1010)[English]I'm glad to hear that. I suspect that with crimesolutions.gov already existing, ours will probably be able to develop faster than theirs, because we'll be able to use what they've already accomplished and move forward more quickly.I also want to talk about training. You mentioned that sometimes the traditional methods of training are not only costly but are simply not the best way to train a police officer—sitting in a classroom with a lecturer at the front. Can you tell us a bit more about the summit that's happening this September in P.E.I.?CostsPolice servicesWork-based trainingMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1015)[English] We're calling it a training summit, but it will essentially build on work of the Canadian Police Knowledge Network. I know you've heard from Mr. Sandy Sweet about that organization and the good work they do across Canada to support police services with online training.They've been holding an annual event in Stanhope, P.E.I., over quite a long period of time. We're going to work with them to take that event and make it broader. It's not just about online learning, although that will be a key element of it. It's about training generally. How do we train? Are those approaches working? What have we learned about new training models and about the styles of learning of new recruits? How do we move forward, and what's the balance we want to find?Clearly, you do need some of the traditional in-class type of training, but there are other parts of that training or other types of training where an online approach is often much more effective.CostsPolice servicesWork-based trainingStellaAmblerMississauga SouthStellaAmblerMississauga South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58833StellaAmblerStella-AmblerMississauga SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AmblerStella_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stella Ambler: (1015)[English] And it can reach many more people.CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1015)[English]Exactly.CostsPolice servicesStellaAmblerMississauga SouthStellaAmblerMississauga South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58833StellaAmblerStella-AmblerMississauga SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AmblerStella_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stella Ambler: (1015)[English]In the discussions at the summit, did anyone present a reasonable estimate of how much money could potentially be saved through this increased use of technology? We've heard estimates as high as $1 billion. After considering some of the indirect costs, do you think that's a fair estimate?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1015)[English]That's certainly the number that I'm familiar with, that around $1 billion of the $12 billion we spend on policing is for training. Policing, as you know, is a pretty training-intensive type of occupation, so you're going to continue to spend a lot of money on policing. But as I think you mentioned, it's some of the indirect costs, your travel and your accommodation in terms of bringing people together in traditional in-class approaches, whether it's at Depot or at the Pacific regional training centre for the RCMP, and similarly for Ontario and Quebec, that are often the biggest costs associated with policing. It's indirect, in terms of their travel and their accommodation, but also their time away from work, the backfilling of positions. There are a whole bunch of follow-on effects.To answer your question very directly, I don't know the answer. Of that $1 billion, are we going to be saving an amount of...? It's hard to say. It's much too early in the process now, but that's clearly one of the objectives of the summit.CostsPolice servicesStellaAmblerMississauga SouthStellaAmblerMississauga South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58833StellaAmblerStella-AmblerMississauga SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AmblerStella_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stella Ambler: (1015)[English]Wonderful.In a situation like training, which is costly but absolutely essential, how do we as a government measure success? How do we take the value of that and decide whether it's actually working or not?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1015)[English]These are excellent questions. I know you've heard from Mr. Gruson from the Police Sector Council. They've done some very good work with academies, looking at the training they provide to recruits and whether there can be greater coordination and commonality in the type of training provided to recruits and linking this to competency profiles and standards related to occupations. The sense is that there's a great deal of scope for improvement in that regard. In terms of training, just looking at the perishability of skills, for example, do you need, every year, to be recertified on first aid and other skills? Frankly, there's not enough research to tell you how rapidly those skills diminish. We just don't have the research foundation to say, okay, of the 25 courses you would normally need to take in a year, these ten are the highest priorities, because your skills in those areas tend to diminish the most rapidly for a variety of reasons. We just don't have the research foundation around training. Coming out of the summit, we're hopeful that there will be some sense of what is the research plan, what is the research that we need to do, to build a better approach to training in Canada.CostsPolice servicesStellaAmblerMississauga SouthStellaAmblerMississauga South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58833StellaAmblerStella-AmblerMississauga SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/AmblerStella_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stella Ambler: (1015)[English]Thank you.You mentioned that you've been following this study carefully. I'm wondering if there are one or two things that stand out in your mind that you've heard and that you think would help most that we should absolutely implement as quickly as possible.CostsPolice servicesResearch and researchersMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1015)[English]Well, you've heard a lot of things certainly this morning on the research, and that being the foundation for evidence-based approaches to reform police services. I think when we look at the three pillars that the FPT community is building around, at what is happening within police services in terms of performance measurements, these are the foundational elements to any sort of transformation. Do you have the right measurement tools? What are you measuring? Are they the right things to measure? How do you, if you wish to do so, reform your police services? What services are out there? KPMG in the U.K. was mentioned, for example. Companies like that provide certain assistance and support to police, who often don't have the skills or background to look at organizational efficiency, and make operational changes that will allow them to be more efficient, better serve the communities, and then reinvest those moneys into new models of community safety—more proactive policing. There are some activities happening in Saskatchewan, Waterloo, right across the country, to better serve Canadians and get to the roots of crime. I think that's the kind of transformation we're looking at.CostsPolice servicesResearch and researchersStellaAmblerMississauga SouthRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1020)[English]Mr. Scarpaleggia, you have seven minutes.MarkPotterFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1020)[English]Just to recap, you're producing your report in the fall, did you say? You're producing a report out of this summit. Is that what I understood you to say?CostsPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1020)[English]The summit report was released very recently. It's on our website.CostsPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1020)[English]Okay.What is the next step for your department? You've done what you had to do on this. Or are you putting out more...?CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1020)[English] Absolutely. Right now we're in the midst of finalizing the index of policing initiatives. That will hopefully be later this summer. We're going to be organizing the training summit with the CPKN, and, most fundamentally, we're working with the steering committee on developing a strategy for policing in Canada that will go to all FPT ministers in the fall.CostsData banks and databasesData sharingInformation collectionPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1020)[English]So that strategy will be released in the fall. Will it be released after our report is released? In other words, will you be taking account of what we've learned? No doubt you have been following the study through the testimony and so on. Will some of the ideas that have come up in this committee be factored into your strategy?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1020)[English]To be frank, I think there has actually been great alignment between the schedule and the deliberations of this committee, the work on the summit, and the sorts of speakers there as well as here. I understand your report is likely to appear in early fall, which would feed in very well. We don't know when FPT ministers are meeting. It hasn't been scheduled yet, but it's usually around the end of October, and I can't get ahead of ministers in presuming what they'll ultimately approve. We will certainly continue to draw upon your transcripts and discussions, and certainly your report, and feed that into the process in developing the strategy.CostsPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1020)[English]Right.In terms of economic modelling, are you going to delve into this in some detail in your strategy, other than to say we need to do economic modelling? Are you going to be looking at models of economic modelling, if you will? Are you going to be making more detailed suggestions than simply saying each police force should do more analysis of its costs, benefits, and so on? Is this something the federal government—Public Safety Canada—will try to explore in more depth?CostsEconomic analysisPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1020)[English]Once again, I can't get too far ahead, certainly, of my own minister and collectively all FPT ministers in talking about the way forward. When you look at the Public Safety Act and the Minister of Public Safety's role to provide leadership for public safety, including policing in Canada, I think he's been doing that very much through the summit and other actions.What is the federal role? Well, there's a leadership and a coordination role. Certainly there are accountabilities for the RCMP, and the minister has taken actions in that regard. Beyond that, there's the constitutional administration of justice residing with provinces. So we're being very respectful and working with the provinces. Through the steering committee developing the strategy, we have three champion provinces, who, in those three pillars, are actually taking the lead in identifying actions that will be brought to ministers for their consideration. So it's very much a collective undertaking of the governments.CostsEconomic analysisPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1020)[English]Ms. Huggins, is the RCMP involved in this kind of economic modelling, this kind of analysis that Chief Torigian and others have mentioned, this kind of “embedded in the force” capacity for analyzing and getting a handle on what works, on what doesn't, on what is cost-effective, and what brings quantifiable benefits, and so on?Is this something the RCMP does, or is the RCMP sort of at the same stage as many police forces, where this is something it's going to have to look at and build up within its organization? Is there a lot of quantitative analysis done on the cost-benefit ratios of certain policing practices, and so on?CostsEconomic analysisPolice servicesRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkPotterRachelHugginsRachelHugginsRachel-HugginsInterventionMrs. Rachel Huggins (Acting Director, RCMP Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): (1025)[English] I think the RCMP, like many of the police services across the country, are working very hard and diligently to look for cost benefits. Doing the right kind of analysis, they are involved in many of the committees that Chief Torigian talked about, such as POLIS. They're there at the forefront looking for better ways to analyze and to determine the best type of policing to do in Canada.CostsDepartment of Public Safety and Emergency PreparednessEconomic analysisPolice servicesRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1025)[English]Can we say that the RCMP then is assuming a rightful leadership role in this area of economic modelling and analysis of policing? Is the RCMP leading the pack, or is part of those leading the pack, on this? Is the RCMP involved?CostsPolice servicesRachelHugginsRachelHugginsRachelHugginsRachel-HugginsInterventionMrs. Rachel Huggins: (1025)[English] I think they are leading the pack. I think they're very much involved. They're part of our steering committee on the shared forward agenda. They have the capacity to do that research, and they are out there doing it.CostsPolice servicesFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1025)[English]Mr. Potter, I don't know if you were here when I read something from the May issue of The Economist magazine about the volume of data that governments produce but typically don't analyze. They don't have the capacity to analyze it, but others are taking this data and using it.Is this something that was discussed at the summit, this idea that...? It was brought up a bit, when we were in the U.K., by Lord Wasserman. He said you have to predict crime, where it's going to occur, in order to prevent it, and thereby diminish the demand for police services.We've talked a lot about the cost of police services, but only recently have we started to discuss the notion of.... If you want to get the costs down, get the demand down. And that's very important. A lot of police forces are working on that.But there's all this data out there that can.... As I was referencing before, if you know there are properties with liens on them, you can almost predict that fires will occur there at some point. If you have—CostsPolice servicesRachelHugginsRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1025)[English]Unfortunately, Mr. Scarpaleggia, you've run out your time once again.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1025)[English]That's fine. Thanks very much.RandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1025)[Translation]We will now come back to Ms. Michaud, who has five minutes.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud: (1025)[Translation]I thank our witnesses very much for their presentations. I would like to talk about what you want to study in terms of training, that is to say new approaches. You want primarily to study the way in which training is offered, in other words, how much time is spent in class compared to using technology, for example? You also want to look at the content of the training and what police officers are taught to see if the community-based approach should be used more, or that sort of thing? CostsPolice servicesWork-based trainingRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1025)[Translation]It would be both.[English] The goal is to look at the various approaches, whether it's technology-based or traditional in-class.The more fundamental question you're asking is, what should police be learning? What are their true training needs? I'll refer again to the work of the Police Sector Council and its development of competency profiles. It doesn't sound that exciting, but it's actually quite significant in terms of realizing efficiencies in the way you manage your human resources, which is 80% to 90% of the cost of policing.If you have an agreed standard or competency profile for a certain level, a front-line officer, let's say, you would have certain requirements associated with that standard and certain training to meet those requirements. You could then better orient your training around that.Right now in Canada there's a great diversity around the skills and the expectations of particular police officers. All police services are working through the Police Sector Council, and have been for some time, to bring greater alignment and take a more rigorous look at the actual skill sets needed to deliver certain services and be an effective police service. This is clearly evolving over time, so it's not going to be a static standard. But it is all about professionalization, more effective management of your human resources, and modernizing the way you manage human resources as an organization.CostsPolice servicesWork-based trainingÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud: (1030)[Translation]I presume that the findings or conclusions you will be able to draw during the two-day training, which will take place in September with the Canadian Police Knowledge Network, will allow you to fuel the joint program you intend to present to the minister in the fall?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1030)[English]There are considerable expectations that have been raised around this issue, and that's great. It has created a certain momentum. But realistically speaking, most change, if it is to be sustainable, tends to be incremental. I wouldn't want to create the expectation that there's going to be a training summit in September and it will solve all of the training needs.CostsPolice servicesÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71496ÉlaineMichaudÉlaine-MichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/MichaudÉlaine_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Élaine Michaud: (1030)[Translation]In fact, how do you intend to use your evaluations of the training summit to feed into or develop a national program that you want to present during the course of the fall?If I understand correctly, the training should be geared towards shared national objectives that could be established. You would hold the training summit before publishing the national program. Could you tell me how the two might be interrelated?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1030)[English] I'm afraid it's not a simple answer. The nature of change in this sector, as with many others, is happening at multiple levels. There are things where, whether it's the federal government, the provincial governments, or even the local government...they can be directive. They can encourage change in certain directions, let's say in training. That's one dimension of this. But I think a bigger dimension is the awareness, the information-sharing side, which tends to be more diffuse, a little bit messier in terms of how it actually leads to change. By police services participating in this summit on training, they will hear things, they will learn things, they will take things back to their own police services, which they will begin to look at, apply, and gather more research on. I think when I talk about the nature of change being incremental...you're going to have change happening in a variety of ways.I don't think we should necessarily assume the strategy and central direction are what's really going to truly drive this. I think that's a part of it, and there will be areas where we can collectively cooperate, and it makes sense to build that into a strategy, but there are a lot of things going to be happening incrementally, in a diffuse way, simply by being aware and learning from others about what works and what doesn't.It's the ongoing research, the validation of best practices, and communities defining their own needs, their own priorities, and in that context drawing upon these lessons, drawing upon these experiences, to reform and strengthen their own police services in a way that works for them.CostsPolice servicesÉlaineMichaudPortneuf—Jacques-CartierRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1030)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Potter. We have time for a final question and answer from the government side. Ms. Bergen.MarkPotterCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (1030)[English]Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity. I just want to clarify. The number that jumped out at me concerning first nations policing was in regard to Chief Doug Palson, who is the chief of the Dakota Ojibway Police Service, which is located in my riding of Portage—Lisgar. I know this area extremely well. He told us they were policing five communities, about 8,000 people, with a $5 million budget—about $650 per person, per year.That compared to a small town, again in my riding, Morden, Manitoba—a small city of about 8,000 people. Their cost was under $200 per person, per year. Those numbers jumped out at me. I recognize there's a huge difference. I know these aboriginal communities as well, so I know none of them are fly-in. Certainly, there are more social problems in some of them. I'm really comparing apples to apples. I think it's incumbent on us as politicians and leaders to not just say we need to send more money into this situation, but to look at why the costs are so high for first nations policing.The testimony we heard has been frankly rather dismal. When we've heard success stories, it has not been in first nations policing or with the chiefs of police in those organizations. I'm wondering, Mr. Potter, have we at Public Safety a breakdown of the cost of policing in different jurisdictions? For example, what would it cost, per person, in a major city like Toronto or a small community like Selkirk, Manitoba, or in a first nations community, or a number of them? Do we have a breakdown as far as costs per capita in different jurisdictions are concerned?CostsEconomic analysisPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1030)[English]There's time for a very brief answer, Mr. Potter.CandiceBergenPortage—LisgarMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1030)[English]We draw on StatsCan data. The average for Canada is about $370 per person, the average in the provinces is about $300, and the average in the territories is about $1,000 per person.That is broken down in a more disaggregated fashion through StatsCan data. You can actually get to the level of individual communities in many cases.CostsEconomic analysisPolice servicesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (1035)[English]But you have that already, so if we wanted it, could you provide it to us?CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterMarkPotterMarkPotterMark-PotterInterventionMr. Mark Potter: (1035)[English]We could provide the StatsCan information to you. It's not something we develop ourselves.CostsPolice servicesCandiceBergenPortage—LisgarCandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenCandice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Candice Bergen: (1035)[English]But you just take that and gather it. Okay. Thank you very much.CostsPolice servicesMarkPotterRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de Fuca//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71995RandallGarrisonRandall-GarrisonEsquimalt—Juan de FucaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GarrisonRandall_NDP.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Randall Garrison): (1035)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Bergen.Thank you very much to the two witnesses for being with us today. That concludes this session. We will take a few seconds to reorganize ourselves to look at committee business in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]CandiceBergenPortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Harold Albrecht (Kitchener—Conestoga, CPC)): (0845)[English]I'd like to call the meeting of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development to order. This is meeting number 83. We're meeting today pursuant to Standing Order 81(7) to deal with the report on plans and priorities 2013-14 of the Department of the Environment.We have appearing with us today the Honourable Peter Kent, Minister of the Environment. Along with him, we have a number of witnesses from the departments. From the Department of Environment, we have Mr. Bob Hamilton, deputy minister; from Parks Canada, Alan Latourelle; and from the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, Mr. Yves Leboeuf, vice-president of operations. Welcome to all of you.Mr. Kent, we'll begin with you for your 10-minute opening statement. Please proceed.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent (Minister of the Environment): (0845)[English]Thank you, Chair.It's good to be with you all again. I would just say congratulations on a very productive mid-evening last night. Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[English]Thank you.PeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0845)[English]As you said, Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to return today to discuss the 2013-14 report on the plans and priorities for Environment Canada, for Parks Canada, and for the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency. Joining me at the table are Bob Hamilton, the deputy minister of Environment Canada; Alan Latourelle, CEO of Parks Canada; and Yves Leboeuf, acting president of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, until the recently appointed president, Ron Hallman, is installed at CEAA. Just momentarily on the subject of appointments, we were discussing at the last meeting the federal sustainable development strategy appointments to the International Joint Commission. If you haven't been advised, the two vacancies have now been filled. The two commissioners are Benoît Bouchard and Gordon Walker. It's up on the appointments website. Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[English]Mr. Kent, I'm sorry to interrupt you. We have difficulty with our sound. PeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0845)[English]Stop the clock. Voices: Oh, oh!HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[English]I will stop the clock. PeterKentHon.ThornhillFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette (Drummond, NDP): (0845)[Translation]I can stay till 10:00 or 10:30, no problem.HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[Translation]Is it working now?[English]Okay, sorry to interrupt you.FrançoisChoquetteDrummondPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0845)[English]As usual, I'll begin with a brief statement and then would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have. As you know, there are a number of reports that the federal government issues to ensure that its decisions are transparent and accountable. The 2013-14 report on plans and priorities that we're discussing today outlines the departmental and agency goals for fiscal year 2013-14, and the actions to be undertaken to fulfill these objectives over the next three years. Today I'll discuss some of these goals and actions, and provide a brief update on some of our more recent accomplishments. [Translation]Beginning with Environment Canada, I am pleased to say the department is making clear progress delivering on its mandate to provide a clean, safe and sustainable environment for Canadians.[English]My department will continue to safeguard the quality of Canada's air and water, and restore Canada's natural habitat. It will also advance realistic and effective measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to protect Canada's environment in a manner that supports our economy. When it comes to climate change, Environment Canada has taken concrete steps to fulfill Canada's commitment to meeting our Copenhagen target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 17% below 2005 levels by the year 2020. Following its comprehensive and science-based sector-by-sector approach, the department has already published a series of regulations in alignment with the standards in the United States to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the transportation sector.[Translation]For fiscal 2013-2014, our approach will focus on implementing the coal-fired electricity regulations, building on the regulations in the transportation sector, and developing regulations for the oil and gas sector.(0850)[English] The department is also helping Canadians adapt to a changing climate by taking important steps to increase our knowledge and understanding of climate change. It is succeeding, colleagues. Canada's actions to date are estimated to have brought us halfway from our original projections for 2020 to where we need to be to meet our Copenhagen target for greenhouse gas emission reductions by 2020.Internationally, of course, we are actively engaged in the United Nations process on a new climate change agreement that will include binding commitments for all major emitters. Here at home, Environment Canada's building on its accomplishments in conserving and restoring Canada's natural heritage through programs such as the natural areas conservation program, the ecological gifts program, the habitat stewardship program, and the Species at Risk Act.These initiatives have demonstrated success. For example, collaborations with the Nature Conservancy of Canada under the natural areas conservation program have helped to acquire and secure more than 350,000 hectares of protected habitat for 148 species at risk. More than 1,000 donations across Canada have been made to the ecological gifts program, and more than 2,000 projects have been funded under the habitat stewardship program. Environment Canada will further this progress by working with partners on a national conservation plan to conserve and promote awareness of these precious natural species.When it comes to the oil sands, for example, the governments of Canada and Alberta are committed through the joint Canada-Alberta implementation plan for oil sands monitoring to a scientifically rigorous, comprehensive, integrated, and transparent environmental monitoring program for the region. They are demonstrating their commitment to transparency with the recent launch, as you're aware, of the Canada-Alberta oil sands portal website that provides the public with ongoing open access to the most up-to-date scientific data collected by scientists in the field.Environment Canada is also working to ensure a continued delivery of high-quality weather and environmental services to Canadians and to targeted users. In addition to the funding already included in this report, budget 2013 commits an additional $248 million over five years that will serve the department well in achieving this goal.Mr. Chair, when it comes to safeguarding the quality of our water, the department remains focused on its collaborative work with its American counterparts, with the provinces, and with municipalities to improve water quality in significant areas such as the Great Lakes, Lake Winnipeg, Lake Simcoe, and of course the St. Lawrence.[Translation]It has made it a priority to deliver on the federal components of the National Air Quality Management System which will improve air quality in collaboration with the provinces and territories.[English]Just last month, Environment Canada announced the implementation of new Canadian ambient air quality standards. My department also initiated consultations on more stringent air pollutant standards for a range of small engines used in the off-road sector. Regulations were recently published to reduce air pollution from ships in the North American emission control area, the Great Lakes, and the St. Lawrence Seaway, as were sulphur in marine diesel regulations to enable the implementation of these new air pollutant standards for ships. As well, I recently announced the government's intent to align with proposed standards in the United States to further limit air pollution emissions from passenger cars and light trucks, and to reduce the sulphur content in gasoline.Mr. Chair, this highlights some of Environment Canada's plans for the fiscal year. I'd now like to turn to government key priorities and accomplishments set out in Parks Canada's 2013-14 report on plans and priorities. I'll first remind the committee that in the past few years, Parks Canada has built significantly on its proud legacy to protect these special and irreplaceable places that represent the very essence of Canada.[Translation]The Government of Canada is investing $75 million over five years in significant Action on the Ground projects, the largest and most ambitious natural resource restoration program of this kind in the history of Parks Canada. These projects will make tangible improvements in the ecological integrity of national parks.[English]Our highly successful recent initiatives in ecological restoration include the reintroduction of the plains bison and the black-footed ferret to Grasslands National Park after decades of absence.Establishing national parks and national marine conservation areas has and continues to be a priority for Parks Canada. Since 2006 the Government of Canada has taken actions that will add almost 150,000 square kilometres to Parks Canada's protected areas network. Last year alone, the agency established Nááts’ihch’oh National Park Reserve in the Northwest Territories, and as you know, tabled legislation, which you've been working diligently on, to establish Sable Island National Park Reserve in Nova Scotia. It is also establishing Canada's first national urban park in the Rouge Valley, east of downtown Toronto. This fiscal year Parks Canada will invest approximately $125 million in Canada's national parks and national historic sites in every province and in every territory across the country. Efforts to expand Canada's natural legacy will continue in places such as Bathurst Island in Nunavut and the Mealy Mountains in Labrador.Turning now to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency and the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, 2012, I'm pleased to remind the committee again that this act is an important milestone for Canada. It follows through on recommendations made by this committee to strengthen and to modernize environmental assessment.(0855)[Translation]And now that it is in place, Canadians can expect predictable and timely reviews, reduced duplication, strengthened environmental protection and enhanced consultations with aboriginal peoples.[English]We are achieving our objective, colleagues, for a single project review within a clearly defined time period and to have one responsible authority making decisions within legislated timelines. We have new enforcement provisions to ensure that the necessary mitigation measures are put in place to ensure protection of the environment. For the coming year, the agency will carry on with these efforts in support of responsible resource development. Mr. Chair, these are some of the plans and priorities under my portfolio for fiscal 2013-14. They follow through on the Government of Canada's commitment to ensure that Canadians benefit from a clean, safe, and sustainable environment in a manner that supports our continued economic recovery. They are helping us to make tangible progress, building on our successes and achieving real environmental benefits for today and long into the future.Mr. Chair, thank you. I await your questions.Air qualityAlbertaCanadian Environmental Assessment ActCanadian Environmental Assessment AgencyClimate change and global warmingCoal-fired generating stationsDepartment of the EnvironmentEcological Gifts ProgramEnvironmental assessmentEnvironmental monitoringGovernment plans and priorities reportsHabitat Stewardship Program for Species at RiskJoint Canada-Alberta Implementation Plan for Oil Sands MonitoringNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesNatural Areas Conservation ProgramParks Canada AgencySpecies at Risk ActTar sandsWater qualityWeather officesHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]Thank you very much, Minister Kent. That was a great overview of the work that you are doing and planning to do.We're going to move now to seven-minute rounds of questioning, and our first questioner will be Mr. Sopuck.PeterKentHon.ThornhillRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck (Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, CPC): (0855)[English]Thank you.Thank you, Minister. A common thread throughout your presentation, which I really appreciated, was the focus on delivering real environmental results. I think we find these environmental debates are basically in two camps. In one camp all they talk about is process, and the camp that I'm certainly in, and obviously, you and your department are in, is dealing with delivering real environmental results. So it was greatly appreciated.I was recently in Winnipeg where your department made a grant to the Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation for wetlands conservation and wetlands restoration, again, very much in the theme of delivering real environmental results. Can you talk about why wetlands are so critical and important? Wetlands have been a focus of all parties in this particular committee, but could you expand on their importance? Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsHabitat conservationWetlandsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0855)[English]Thank you very much, and yes.A good deal of my continuing enlightenment in this area comes from your own experience. I think for me the most telling awareness set in after you showed me satellite pictures of some decades ago, which showed speckles of blue across the Canadian Prairies, and more recent satellite photos that show that in the interests of greater productivity on those lands, those blue areas have been drained and put into production. Of course, the cost of that in some years of extreme spring melt and precipitation creates flooding that costs the Canadian economy, and the provinces, communities, and farmers, billions of dollars in losses. As you know, and as this committee has contributed to the work on the national conservation plan, we are increasingly focused on the part of that plan enabling wetland restoration—something that we share objectives on with the United States—and on finding ways to incent the agricultural community to restore wetlands, at the same time as allowing them to enjoy greater productivity on the fertile lands that they're still farming. But perhaps it's finding ways of incenting them with a variety of possible tools to re-establish those wetlands. Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsHabitat conservationNational Conservation PlanWetlandsRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck: (0900)[English]In terms of the national conservation plan—I'm really glad you brought that up—many of us would like to see a major focus of the plan being on what's called “the working landscape”, the farmed landscape, the landscape where there's active forestry and so on. Will the working landscape be a focus of the national conservation plan?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNational Conservation PlanPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0900)[English]Yes, I think it would certainly be an essential part of the eventual national conservation plan because the agricultural community is a natural conservation sector of its own. There's an awareness of the balance of best practices with regard to conservation. We worked with groups like the Nature Conservancy, which, in many of the lands transferred and acquired, allow continued working landscapes, whether forestry, grazing, or other agricultural practices. Ducks Unlimited, of course, is another body that has worked to help our joint continental wetlands re-establishment. I would think that would be an integral part of the eventual national conservation plan.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNational Conservation PlanRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck: (0900)[English]As you are very well aware, our government established the hunting and angling advisory panel, again in acknowledgement of the terrific conservation work that Canada's anglers and hunters have done over decades and decades. The acknowledgement for their work is long overdue. I know that you met with the hunting and angling groups that are part of the hunting and angling advisory panel. Can you talk about some of the potential that our government will have in terms of working with Canada's anglers and hunters?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsHabitat conservationHunting and Angling Advisory PanelPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0900)[English]Certainly.The hunting and angling advisory panel, known by its acronym HAAP—we're still looking for a vowel that could make it HAAPY. Working with the panel has brought a voice to the department and across departments that hasn't been well heard in recent decades. Again, Canada's hunting, angling, and trapping sector contributes billions of dollars to the Canadian economy annually. Hunters and anglers, through catch-and-release programs on the angling side, for example, are well aware of threats to fish habitat, to fish populations from invasive species. On the hunting side again, the protection of species at risk and the responsible management of various species are of great interest to that sector. We'll be talking about a variety of things, contemporizing some of the regulations and laws that the hunting, angling, and trapping sector work under. I think they will contribute significantly to Environment Canada's future accomplishments.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsHabitat conservationHunting and Angling Advisory PanelRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Marquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/69488RobertSopuckRobert-SopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SopuckRobert_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Sopuck: (0900)[English]In that same vein, your colleague, the fisheries minister, will be announcing the new recreational fisheries conservation partnerships program, so the notion of governments putting dollars into programs that actually generate real environmental results, again, is a common theme.In terms of the natural areas conservation plan, where I live south of Riding Mountain National Park, it's a highly targeted area by that program in terms of the conservation of the aspen parkland. Have you been satisfied with the results of that program, and what kind of potential do you see for it over the next few years?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNatural Areas Conservation ProgramRiding Mountain National ParkPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0900)[English]Again, I think the accomplishments are self-evident. They've been recognized, certainly, by the Province of Manitoba, and by landowners and land users in the area. To come back to your point about the impending announcement of the $10 million in recreational fishing support, it will very nicely mirror the roughly $11-plus million that Environment Canada distributes in modest grants across the habitat stewardship program.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNatural Areas Conservation ProgramRiding Mountain National ParkRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—MarquetteHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0905)[English]Thank you, Mr. Sopuck. Your time is up.We move now to Monsieur Choquette and Monsieur Jacob.PeterKentHon.ThornhillFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0905)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses for being here with us today.[English]My first question is about real environmental results. There have been reports that none of the companies operating in the oil sands have met their obligation to clean up their operation of tailings ponds. This government continues to claim it has implemented world-class standards, but is failing to ensure compliance. What is the federal government planning to do to hold polluters to account?ComplianceDepartment of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsTailings pondsTar sandsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0905)[English] Thank you for your question. I think you're referring to recent stories about tailings ponds in the oil sands that have not met provincial targets. Of course, as you know, we work with the Province of Alberta too, and we're at the moment crafting regulations for the oil and gas sector, including the oil sands sector, to cover the range of environmental concerns. We're in the second year of the process of implementing the joint Canada-Alberta oil sands monitoring plan, which was designed by scientists at arm's length. It is being implemented transparently and will address exactly the sorts of issues you raise. There are certainly challenges in the continuing development of the oil sands, whether with regard to tailings ponds, with regard to water use, or with regard to emissions and emissions intensities. But I can assure you that the Government of Canada is well focused on effectively regulating, with the cooperation of the sector and the provinces and the industry, outcomes that are more environmentally appropriate. ComplianceDepartment of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsTailings pondsTar sandsFrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0905)[Translation]Thank you, Minister.Mr. Chair, I'm going to share my time with Mr. Jacob.PeterKentHon.ThornhillPierreJacobBrome—Missisquoi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71362PierreJacobPierre-JacobBrome—MissisquoiNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/JacobPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Jacob (Brome—Missisquoi, NDP): (0905)[Translation]Thank you, dear colleague.Thank you, Mr. Chair.I also wish to thank the witnesses for being here with us this afternoon.According to Bill C-481, which I sponsored, the Act to amend the Federal Sustainable Development Act (duty to examine), bills must be examined by the Minister of Justice in order to verify whether they are compatible with the Federal Sustainable Development Act. If they are not compatible, the minister informs the House of Commons as promptly as possible. My bill extends the scope of the spirit of the Federal Sustainable Development Act so that it applies to all bills.However, last June 4, you said that you would not support Bill C-481 because you felt it added a redundant level of oversight. You stated essentially that the Federal Sustainable Development Act and the Sustainable Development Office already ensure that our departments and legislation respect the parameters of sustainable development.Can you explain to us how the Federal Sustainable Development Act sees to it that the House of Commons ensures that all bills are in compliance with the principles of sustainable development?ComplianceDepartment of the EnvironmentFederal Sustainable Development ActGovernment plans and priorities reportsLegislationSustainable developmentFrançoisChoquetteDrummondPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0905)[English]Thank you, and thank you for an accurate summary of what I said, and for your concerns. Your private member's bill is still being considered. Certainly, as with all private members' bills, we on the government side will listen to the debate and we will be informed by different points of view. But as I said at committee a couple of weeks ago, our first impression is that it would add a great legislative burden. It would add a redundant examination of laws, which our government is focused on eliminating. We're trying to end duplication and redundancy and to cut red tape, while at the same time maintaining and applying the federal sustainable development strategy to achieve the outcomes it was intended to achieve. Again, as I said two weeks ago, we are still in the very early years of the application of the strategy. As time goes on and we do the periodic reviews of how the strategy is working or not working, perhaps some suggestions or variations of the suggestions made in your private member's bill would return for consideration. ComplianceDepartment of the EnvironmentFederal Sustainable Development ActGovernment plans and priorities reportsLegislationSustainable developmentPierreJacobBrome—MissisquoiPierreJacobBrome—Missisquoi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71362PierreJacobPierre-JacobBrome—MissisquoiNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/JacobPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Jacob: (0905)[Translation]Thank you, Minister.I would now like to know why Canada does not include its ecological debt in its economic debt, as do several European countries.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPublic debtPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0910)[English]Well, we have different procedures and protocols. On a recent visit to a number of European capitals, I discovered that in fact the transparency of our accounting for environmental impact, for such things as emissions impact and across the spectrum of environmental considerations, is in fact more transparent than that of a number of European nations. This country, as you know, is larger than the original European Union, and the amount of work required to create that sort of negative inventory again would get into areas of redundancy and duplication. We know well where the threats are to the Canadian environment and we're responding with appropriate action. Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPublic debtPierreJacobBrome—MissisquoiPierreJacobBrome—Missisquoi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71362PierreJacobPierre-JacobBrome—MissisquoiNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/JacobPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Jacob: (0910)[Translation]Thank you, Minister.How do you see the government's role in promoting sustainable development, and when should the government not intervene?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsSustainable developmentPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0910)[English]I think the federal sustainable development strategy makes it very clear that our government—and again it is a strategy approved by the House of Commons, by Parliament—knows where efforts need to be taken. We recognize that some of the provinces and territories in Canada have slightly different interpretations of the priorities under sustainable development, but I think the strategy is very clear on where we believe we need to intervene, and where we need to work in cooperation with the various provinces. Quebec, as you know, has a very different balance of the three pillars of sustainable development: economic, social, and environmental. Our federal strategy focuses more on the impact of government on the environmental pillar, but it is cognizant, it does recognize, in a different way, perhaps, than the Quebec government—Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsSustainable developmentPierreJacobBrome—MissisquoiHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0910)[English]Thank you, Minister Kent. Thank you, Monsieur Jacob.We'll move now to Mr. Toet, for seven minutes.PeterKentHon.ThornhillLawrenceToetElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71839LawrenceToetLawrence-ToetElmwood—TransconaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ToetLawrence_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Lawrence Toet (Elmwood—Transcona, CPC): (0910)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's great to have the minister with us again today. Thank you for joining us.I wanted to pick up a little bit on what Mr. Sopuck was touching on, and that's really the results-oriented aspects of the work we've been doing. Mr. Sopuck actually referenced the habitat stewardship program announcement that was made last week, and there's a component of that announcement that was also going to the Lake Winnipeg basin stewardship fund.As I'm sure you're aware, as a Manitoba MP Lake Winnipeg is a very important area for me and for probably every Manitoban. We also realize it is a huge basin area. We focus on the lake, but I think we're really getting an understanding of the need. You touched on the wetlands aspect of it and how that affects it and touches on it. I'm concerned about the health and quality of Lake Winnipeg, and I'm also very happy to see some of the investments, and the budget 2012 with the $18 million investment for the second phase of the Lake Winnipeg basin initiative.But I'd also like it if you could review for us the accomplishments we have seen in phase 1. Now we're into phase 2. You could touch on that also, but I'd especially like to really focus on some of the accomplishments in phase 1, and how we're going to be able to build on that going forward.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsLake WinnipegLake Winnipeg Basin Initiative RenewalHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0910)[English]Sure. Thank you.The challenges of nutrient loading in Lake Winnipeg are very significant. You mentioned the investment made under phase 1. What we're learning in combatting nutrient loading in Lake Winnipeg, and the amount of effort that is required not only in the water but in the agricultural lands, in the tributaries to the lake, will inform us with regard to similar problems in Lake Erie, elsewhere in the Great Lakes, and in other smaller freshwater lakes in Canada.In phase 1 researchers had 24 projects that looked at everything from the water in the major sub-basin, which includes the Winnipeg River, Lake of the Woods, which of course is a very large lake. Many Canadians unfamiliar with southern Manitoba are unfamiliar with the immense size and the critical importance of Lake of the Woods. They looked at the Assiniboine River and the Winnipeg River. They looked at the chemical and the biological integrity of these waters and the practices on land with regard to unintended drainage of fertilizers, for example, into the waters. They looked at the algae bloom, which is massive and recurring. They also announced a number of objectives that needed to be addressed, which is what brought us to the second $18 million, five-year investment in budget 2012 to continue that work and to work with, again, the province, communities, and landowners. There are waste water issues. There are, as I said, fertilizer drainage issues. There is a tax base concern because it is a large recreational water as well as an important freshwater source. So this is a very important program. The work we do there, the science that is done there, will inform us in similar situations in other parts of the country.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsLake WinnipegLake Winnipeg Basin Initiative RenewalLawrenceToetElmwood—TransconaLawrenceToetElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71839LawrenceToetLawrence-ToetElmwood—TransconaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/ToetLawrence_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Lawrence Toet: (0915)[English]Thank you. It is good to see we have a great focus on the Lake Winnipeg area and the basin. You talked about Lake of the Woods. Many people who are unfamiliar think it's one lake, but it's actually a huge series of lakes that are all tied together, and they play a very important role.I want to change the channel a little and talk about our Copenhagen targets and how we're doing there. I noted in the 2012 “Canada's Emissions Trends” report that as a result of our actions taken to date, Canada is already halfway to closing the gap between what our emissions had originally been projected to be in 2020 and where we need to be to meet our Copenhagen targets.That's quite a great accomplishment for the short time we've been going forward on this. I was wondering what steps we are going to be implementing to build on this success, to make sure we meet those targets for 2020.Climate change and global warmingDepartment of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsUnited Nations Framework Convention on Climate ChangePeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0915)[English]As I said at committee a couple of weeks ago, the accomplishments to date are partly the result of regulations we have created for the transportation sector and the coal-fired electricity generating sector. This will be further contributed to by the oil and gas regulations, which we're working to complete, and those for other major emitters.They are also the product of actions taken by provinces, by municipalities, and by ordinary Canadians through practices such as keeping the thermostat a couple of degrees cooler in the winter and perhaps using the air conditioning more judiciously in the summer, things that would seem to have a relatively minor potential impact. There's some confusion, which is completely understandable, between the numbers and the megatonnage we report in our annual inventory updates, and the estimate of what our regulations to date and supplementary contributions will make by 2020.I've been waiting for an opportunity to explain this, so thank you for your question. If we had done nothing, as, for example, the previous Liberal government did, we would have had an estimated business-as-usual megatonnage of about 850 megatonnes, plus or minus five or ten megatonnes, by 2020. The actions that have been taken to date—supplementary actions by the provinces and industry—have brought us down to an estimated 720 megatonnes by 2020. That has nothing to do with the latest inventory report that says 702 megatonnes.The 2005 megatonnage was 737 megatonnes. Reducing that by 17% would take it down to 611 megatonnes. So from 850, and we're at 720, we're just over halfway to getting down to our 2020 total target emission reduction of 611 megatonnes.Climate change and global warmingDepartment of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsUnited Nations Framework Convention on Climate ChangeLawrenceToetElmwood—TransconaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Toet. Your time is up. We'll move now to Ms. Duncan for seven minutes.PeterKentHon.ThornhillKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan (Etobicoke North, Lib.): (0920)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, all, for coming. In 2010-2011, actual spending on environmental assessment delivery was $15,263,000, dropping down to $8,597,000 planned spending in 2015-16. Can you tell me what accounts for this reduction?Department of the EnvironmentEnvironmental assessmentGovernment expendituresGovernment plans and priorities reportsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0920)[English]There are a couple of programs that will sunset in 2014-15. The major projects management office will sunset, and the government will assess, as we do with all term projects, the effectiveness of the project and whether or not to renew and at what dollar amount. The other one is the aboriginal consultation funding, which was increased last year for CEAA, but again it comes with a multiple-year term, which is set to expire, as you point out, March 31, 2015.It would be premature to anticipate, but I would think, given the direction of responsible resource development and CEAA's mandate, that funding will be renewed at appropriate levels.Department of the EnvironmentEnvironmental assessmentGovernment expendituresGovernment plans and priorities reportsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0920)[English]Is that drop related to the fact that we lost roughly 3,000 environmental assessments over night?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0920)[English]No. It relates, we anticipate, and as the RPP process is intended to illuminate.... We look at the current fiscal year, but we also look at it over the three-year period and anticipate where sunsetting programs will end—that helps us with our planning—and where we will need to consider renewal.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0920)[English]Are you comfortable with the reduction?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0920)[English]Yes, and I'll just offer a very brief answer. As we accumulate experience—we have almost a year's experience now under CEAA 2012—from our point of view, from the provinces' and indeed, from the industries' that have been subject to assessments and the assessment process and are anticipating going into the assessment process, it is working.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0920)[English]Thank you, Minister.With regard to SARA, several stakeholders have said that the concerns in the legislation are questions of implementation, not questions of legislation, meaning the act can be made better without opening it up.Can you tell me what scientific evidence you have for wanting to make amendments to make the act “more effective” or efficient with respect to the act's stated purpose?Department of the EnvironmentEndangered speciesGovernment plans and priorities reportsSpecies at Risk ActPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0920)[English]That's a good question. As you know, it's a continuing conversation. No decisions have been taken. There are indeed those. In fact, some of the original framers of the Species at Risk Act said that implementation at the time was imperfect. Not all of the advice was taken in terms of application of the law and they have been aware of it for some time. Again, it's barely a decade old. It's a young piece of legislation, and over those 10 years some of the problems that were identified and foreseen have accumulated. One of those problems is the order in which species at risk are considered and the fact that all species are treated the same. There is no opportunity to prioritize with regard to recognizing the impacts of climate change or to recognizing fringe species, which might be just present in a small part of Canada but abundant south of the border.Department of the EnvironmentEndangered speciesGovernment plans and priorities reportsSpecies at Risk ActKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0920)[English]Thank you.Minister, could I ask that you table with the committee the scientific evidence you have? PeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0920)[English]Sure.KirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0920)[English]That would be terrific. We're hearing from the scientists that any move to open this up is going to have the opposite effect. What do you say to that?PeterKentHon.ThornhillKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0920)[English]I'm going to jump in because I have a short time.For whom are trying to improve the act's effectiveness and efficiency? Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0920)[English]With some scientists, as you know, on all of the big environmental issues that society considers, not just in Canada but around the world, there are degrees of agreement and disagreement. Certainly this committee will have abundant opportunity to look at the justification and the logic for whatever might be brought back to Parliament with regard to changing practices in application, or in fact, legislative amendments to the act. There are powerful arguments on both sides of that discussion.It's something that we won't and we shouldn't rush into, but there are some very real issues to address with regard to the accumulating problems—Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0920)[English]For the species at risk. As you know, there are almost 200 species at different levels of risk for which recovery programs have yet to be completed. There is a lot of science to be done. Again, prioritization can be undertaken to a degree, and the courts, of course, as you know, keep an eye on the minister of the day with regard to recovery plans and their creation. The improvements will be for the benefit of the species at risk in Canada.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0925)[English]Thank you. I'm going to jump in. Environment Canada's measurement stations and analysis for ozone trends are gold standard in the northern high latitudes, which are highly vulnerable to stratospheric ozone depletion. How many of our ozonesonde stations and Brewers are supported? How many scientists are supported for management and analysis related to Brewers and ozonesondes?ArcticAtmosphere ozone levelDepartment of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsWeather officesPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0925)[English]It is the same number that Dr. Dodds identified when she appeared before the committee last year.Bob, do you have the page open with the numbers?KirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthBobHamiltonBobHamiltonBob-HamiltonInterventionMr. Bob Hamilton (Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment): (0925)[English]I don't have the specific numbers with me, but we can get back on that.ArcticAtmosphere ozone levelDepartment of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsWeather officesPeterKentHon.ThornhillKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (0925)[English]There were 10 ozonesonde stations. How many of those are operating?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsBobHamiltonPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0925)[English]To my knowledge, they all continue to operate. You're quite right, Canada has set the gold standard in ozone monitoring and we are determined to continue and to maintain that standard.ArcticAtmosphere ozone levelDepartment of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsWeather officesKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English] Thank you very much, Ms. Duncan.We'll move now to Madame Quach, for five minutes.PeterKentHon.ThornhillAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach (Beauharnois—Salaberry, NDP): (0925)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Minister, for having come to appear before us for the second time in two weeks.One of the principal mandates of Parks Canada is to preserve the ecological integrity of our parks. However, the ecological integrity indicator for eight of these parks is considered bad. As for ecosystems, the indicator is considered bad for six of these parks. It is dropping. Moreover, the number of species at risk in heritage areas has since 2004 gone from 141 to 222. How do you explain these rather poor results?Department of the EnvironmentEndangered speciesGovernment plans and priorities reportsHabitat conservationNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0925)[English]I'll defer to Alan in just a moment for the science behind decisions that have been taken, but I would like to respond to a question you raised in the House last week regarding the [Translation]Réseau d'observation des mammifères marins—the marine mammal observation network.Department of the EnvironmentEnvironmental assessmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsRéseau d'observation de mammifères marinsSt. Lawrence RiverTourismAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (0925)[Translation]Can you answer...PeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0925)[English]That group has been approved.Alan.Department of the EnvironmentEnvironmental assessmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsRéseau d'observation de mammifères marinsSt. Lawrence RiverTourismAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAlanLatourelleAlanLatourelleAlan-LatourelleInterventionMr. Alan Latourelle (Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada): (0925)[Translation]Regarding the ecological integrity challenges, we currently have in effect the largest ecological restoration program in the history of Parks Canada. It will cost approximately $70 million over the next five years. The work is being done in close to 25 national parks, and our objective is to change those indicators in 20 national parks by 2015.And so we are taking steps to attain those objectives. We have already seen very concrete results at the local level.Department of the EnvironmentEndangered speciesGovernment plans and priorities reportsHabitat conservationNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesParks Canada AgencyPeterKentHon.ThornhillAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (0925)[Translation]So, despite the results that are on the decline, you cannot explain why there has been an increase in the number of species at risk since 2004.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsAlanLatourelleAlanLatourelleAlanLatourelleAlan-LatourelleInterventionMr. Alan Latourelle: (0925)[Translation]The fact is that national parks don't operate in a vacuum. We operate in an ecosystem that is often bigger than the national park. We work with people from outside the park, consequently. For instance, one of the challenges at the Forillon National Park is the movement of animals in the corridor. We are working with Nature Conservation Canada specifically; they have purchased land in order to improve this circulation corridor for the animals. So we are taking concrete actions like that one in order to change those indicators. I also want to point out to you that you identified eight national parks and that there are 44 of them. In several national parks, we are seeing considerable positive change.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (0925)[Translation]You also talked about protected corridors, but Canada does not yet have any protected area networks. You say that two national parks and two additional protected marine areas will be created. Do you know where they will be created, and when? What percentage of the terrestrial and aquatic area of Canada would be protected if we want to respect the Aichi objectives? We are quite far from reaching the target of 10% of aquatic zones and 17% of protected terrestrial habitats by 2020.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNational marine conservation areasAlanLatourellePeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0930)[English]As you know, Parks Canada has created four national marine protected areas to date. We're actively working on three additional areas.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNational marine conservation areasAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (0930)[English]Where?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0930)[English]One of them is in the area known as the Serengeti of the Arctic, a very rich area in Lancaster Sound in Nunavut. We are working with the Government of Quebec on a feasibility study for the Îles de la Madeleine, with regard to a marine protected area there, and I think that work is progressing. As you know, the southern Strait of Georgia is one that was announced. It's still in the study and development process, but it's a large one, and there are others that have been designated.I certainly appreciate, Parks Canada appreciates, and the department and the government appreciate the ambition of the Aichi targets, but it's a matter of capacity. These parks can't be created overnight in a scientifically and environmentally acceptable, sustainable way. There's a lot of science and there are intergovernmental concerns. There's first nation consultation, and believe me, Parks Canada is working at speed to help move forward on those accomplishments.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (0930)[Translation]I have one last question.You talked about increasing the public's appreciation and comprehension, among other things by offering young people the possibility of interacting with members of the Parks Canada team. You also want to improve the visitor's experience, but the number of visitors in Parks Canada heritage places has decreased by 20% over the last 15 years.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsParks Canada AgencyTourismPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0930)[English]Yes.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsParks Canada AgencyTourismAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (0930)[Translation]You have abolished facilitator-guide positions, you have increased the entrance fees, you have shortened the visiting seasons and you expect that 700 employees are going to retire. You are planning to cut 600 positions, ranging from facilitator-guides to biologists to researchers and archeologists at Parks Canada.Do you not think that these cuts will worsen the decline in the number of visitors in the next few years, and also the resources...Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]Madam Quach, we'll have a very short response, please. We're out of time.Anne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0930)[English]I thank you for your question. This is part of a larger conversation. But, to your point, you're quite correct. Visitation is down and there has been some reduction of on-site interpretative services at national historic sites, for example, in the off-seasons. Essentially, what we're doing now, and what we're doing with the ingested deficit reduction realities, is ensuring there are Parks Canada personnel at these locations when the tourists are there, when there are visitors. It does involve a shift. At the same time, Parks Canada has a very aggressive program going to engage younger Canadians who have not had the experience that some of us of the older generation have had in visiting the national parks and historic sites and making them a part of our life. Life is very different today. We need to re-engage. We need to teach camping skills, for example, to get people into our parks.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]Thank you, Madam Quach.We move now to Ms. Rempel for five minutes.PeterKentHon.ThornhillMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment): (0930)[English]Well, here we are. We've been doing this gig for two years now. HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0930)[English]Yes. MichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0930)[English]You might have taken some heat, but I think there's a lot of stuff that we can be proud of. I'm going to start with parks. My colleagues here have asked about what we've done to satisfy the Aichi targets to protect land. Since we've come to office, by how much have we increased Canada's protected lands?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesParks Canada AgencyPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0930)[English]Thank you, that's a good question. You're quite right. I've certainly learned how quickly scar tissue accumulates. Parks Canada is a world leader. In my previous life as a junior minister in Foreign Affairs, I visited countries in the Americas and abroad in Africa and Asia, and met many ministers, and certainly, I visited some naturally protected spaces. Parks Canada is cited as the source of best practices in creating national parks and dealing with species at risk with all of the issues that occur under CITES. Since 2006, our government has increased—and again to the question regarding the Aichi targets—by 50% the protected spaces across Canada.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesParks Canada AgencyMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0935)[English]What does that mean in terms of comparing it to the size of another country, say?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]Well, you could put the United Kingdom, France, Germany, and Belgium into that area. There was a criticism not long ago comparing the amount of protected space in New Zealand to the amount of protected space in Canada. It's apples and oranges, the percentage of protected space. We are at about 10% of Canada's total land and sea area protected. We are, as I said, working on achieving Aichi targets for both our oceans and for land. I think Canadians can well be proud of the work. As minister, I take the credit and the blame on issues. Parks Canada's accomplishments really speak for themselves.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0935)[English]I agree. Actually, it's my understanding that since we've come to office we've protected a land mass the size of Norway in new....Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]Yes.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0935)[English]I think Parks Canada is to be commended for that.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]Absolutely.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0935)[English]I think that's incredible progress in protecting parks areas in Canada.We often get derided, too, for increases in parks fees and access to parks, but I always like to look at comparative activities. I think for less than the cost of a movie in an average Canadian city, somebody can access a national park for a day. Is that correct?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]Absolutely.As you know, after freezing user fees for some time in the parks and our historic canals, we addressed issues that the Auditor General pointed out in past years to ensure that reasonable access is there for these parks. But when you look at the expenses that Canadians make for children's hockey, for health clubs, for other recreational activities, including movies, the changes to the fees across the national parks are comparable. They are reasonable. We're trying to find a balance.User fees will never support our national parks system—they certainly won't support our entire historic canal system—but we're trying to find a reasonable balance. In the parks, user fees account for about 35% of costs. On our historic canals, as you know, user fees paid by boaters account for barely 10% of the costs. The current exercise we're going through is controversial. It's a sensitive one, but in the national capital area, for example, we have a wonderful historic canal here. For those boaters who complain about reasonable, modest increases in moorage or dockage, for example, my answer is that a 36-foot cabin cruiser that wishes to tie up for a day opposite the Chateau Laurier should pay at least the same moorage fee as a 36-foot Winnebago at a campground in one of our great national parks.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0935)[English]With the time I have left—PeterKentHon.ThornhillHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]Actually, you don't have time left—MichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0935)[English]Oh.HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English] I hate to inform you of that on—MichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (0935)[English]But everybody else got seven or eight minutes.Voices: Oh, oh!HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]It was a long answer.MichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]I appreciate your perspective, even though it's wrong.We will go to Mr. Choquette for the last question. You have five minutes, please.PeterKentHon.ThornhillFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0935)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I have some very simple and direct questions to ask. And so I would like answers in the same vein.[English]How many staff have been let go in the last year, and how many are you planning on letting go this year? If you can't answer me today, you can give us the numbers later.HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]Are you talking in parks, in environment, and...?FrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0935)[Translation]I am talking about Environment Canada.PeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]We'll give you those numbers. There are three separate sets of numbers.FrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0935)[English]Thank you very much.How many staff have been hired in the communication department in the last three years? You can give me the same answer.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsStaffingPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0935)[English]The net positions have decreased.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsStaffingFrançoisChoquetteDrummondBobHamiltonBobHamiltonBob-HamiltonInterventionMr. Bob Hamilton: (0935)[English]Yes.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsStaffingPeterKentHon.ThornhillFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0940)[English]Can you provide us the number?BobHamiltonPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0940)[English]Yes, certainly.FrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0940)[English]Thank you very much.To be sure that everybody knows, the fact is that this committee never issued a report on the statutory review of SARA in spite of repeated efforts by the NDP. I simply wanted to address that.PeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0940)[English]Sure. You'll have an opportunity soon, I hope.FrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0940)[English]Maybe.[Translation]My other question has to do with the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency.I was often told in the House of Commons that the Navigable Waters Protection Act was no longer necessary to protect lakes and rivers. Ninety-eight per cent of lakes and rivers are no longer protected, but the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act will, we are told, do all the work.I hear that there will be cuts on the order of 50% related to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. Mr. Leboeuf, I am very worried. With all of these cuts, how are you going to ensure that the agency functions well? I am really worried. I don't think that it will work well because of all of these cuts.I would like to add one thing, Minister, before you answer me. It is something that concerns me a great deal. Why are the programs of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency only aligned with the results of the government's “Strong economic growth” program, but not with the results of “A clean and healthy environment”? It seems to me that this doesn't make sense. The Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency is only aligned with the economy, but not with having a clean and healthy environment.Canadian Environmental Assessment ActCanadian Environmental Assessment AgencyDepartment of the EnvironmentEnvironmental assessmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0940)[English]Thank you for your question.Obviously it doesn't. We make the point at every opportunity—and certainly it is a process of environmental assessment to ensure—that when an application is made, for example, for a resource development, consideration of the impact on the environment is paramount. Those proposals are only approved conditional to actions that must be taken to protect the environment or to remediate after the extraction of whatever resources involved is completed. With regard to your initial question, the Navigable Waters Protection Act dealt with navigation. Over the years, communities across the country had asked the government to amend the act—to contemporize the act, if you will. At the same time, issues regarding water quality, fish habitat—all of these other environmental concerns, issues, and protections—continue to be addressed in other legislation, both under the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and under Environment Canada.Yves, would you like to add an observation?Canadian Environmental Assessment ActCanadian Environmental Assessment AgencyDepartment of the EnvironmentEnvironmental assessmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsFrançoisChoquetteDrummondYvesLeboeufYvesLeboeufYves-LeboeufInterventionMr. Yves Leboeuf (Vice-President, Operations, Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency): (0940)[Translation]Yes.Concerning the 50% reduction you alluded to, I imagine that you were talking about the reduction in the budget of the agency for the period after 2014-2015. As the minister explained a little earlier, these are funds that were allocated to the agency in Budget 2012, i.e. $8 million for large-scale projects and $6.8 million a year for aboriginal consultations. This represents an increase as compared to what we received in the past. These funds were allocated for three years. They will expire at the end of 2014-2015 and their renewal will then be considered.Canadian Environmental Assessment ActCanadian Environmental Assessment AgencyDepartment of the EnvironmentEnvironmental assessmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0940)[Translation]Excuse me, Mr. Leboeuf, but I only have 15 seconds left.I would like to ask one last question, Mr. Chair.YvesLeboeufHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0940)[English]Make it a very short question.FrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0940)[Translation]In this committee, we have only examined Bill S-15. All of the other legislative measures which concerned the environment were studied in the context of omnibus bills.Can you promise us that the next bills on the environment which amend the act will be referred to the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, so that we may be able to our work?Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsLegislationHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0940)[English]I can't give a yes or no. As you know, the government House leader determines, in consultation with cabinet, the composition of legislation. Last year was an exceptional year that included CEAA, 2012. We continue to be open to discuss and to consider improvements. As you know, this year there have not been a great number of.... As a matter of fact, I don't think we have had any Environment Canada legislation. There has been associated legislation, but that's a matter of the whole of government. Perhaps the committee should consider calling those ministers who are responsible for tangential responsibilities in respect to the environment to discuss things such as navigable waters.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsLegislationFrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (0945)[Translation]Yes, among others the Minister of the Environment.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsPeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (0945)[English]Certainly I look forward, I hope in the very near future—and thank you for your consideration of Bill S-15, as I said at the beginning—to bringing any new proposed legislation before the committee for consideration.Department of the EnvironmentGovernment plans and priorities reportsS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001FrançoisChoquetteDrummondHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0945)[English]Thank you very much. I want again to thank Minister Kent and his officials for being with us today. Thank you, committee, for great questioning.At this point, we have the honour to adjourn, and then I have the honour of presenting Bill S-15 to the House in a few minutes. So we're going to adjourn at this point.Thank you very much. S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001PeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Harold Albrecht (Kitchener—Conestoga, CPC)): (1855)[English]I'd like to call the meeting of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development to order. We're in meeting number 82.Prior to introducing our witnesses, I have something I would like to read, which I understand has been worked out with all parties:That, notwithstanding the decision made by the Committee on June 13, 2013, the Committee move immediately to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001, following the witness testimony on Monday, June 17, 2013.Are all in agreement with that? I understand we're in agreement to move directly into clause-by-clause study after the witnesses are finished. Thank you very much. We will move now to our witnesses. We have seven witnesses tonight. Three of them are joining us by teleconference.To save a bit of time, I'm not going to mention all of them now. I'm going to go in the order that's listed on the orders of the day. If you don't have a copy, we can get a copy to you.We'll begin with the Government of Nova Scotia, the Honourable Leonard Preyra, Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage. I have asked our witnesses as much as possible to try to limit their opening statements to between five and seven minutes to give us more time for questions from members; however, I will be a little flexible there, so we'll move ahead with that understanding. Honourable Leonard Preyra, would you begin your statement, please.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra (Minister of Communities, Culture and Heritage, Government of Nova Scotia): (1900)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Members of the committee, good evening, bonsoir. It's a pleasure and an honour to be here today to mark another significant step in the process to designate Sable Island as Canada's 43rd national park reserve. As you are aware, on October 17, 2011 Nova Scotia Premier Darrell Dexter, along with Peter Kent, the minister responsible for Parks Canada, signed a landmark agreement to make Sable Island a national park reserve. I too signed that agreement as a witness that day. That historic memorandum has helped secure a future of greater protection for this unique island. This agreement holds significance for all Canadians, for Nova Scotians and members of my constituency. I shouldn't say “my constituency”. The Honourable Megan Leslie is here too. It's our constituency. We all have it. We're very possessive about it. In particular it's especially meaningful to members of our constituency. It commits Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia to protecting Sable Island for the benefit and enjoyment of everyone both now and for future generations. It is about conservation and stewardship.This legislation will put into law significant benefits for Sable Island, its habitat and the unique flora and fauna living there. That is the reason I am here today endorsing this bill on behalf of the Government of Nova Scotia. This bill protects Sable Island under the National Parks Act, the strongest federal conservation legislation available. It will legislate for the first time a ban on exploratory and extractive drilling for petroleum resources from the surface of Sable Island. This will install a judicial buffer around Sable Island that prohibits drilling from its low-water boundary out to one nautical mile. This bill will put in place a legislative requirement for the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board to consult with Parks Canada should it want to issue a permit for activity on Sable Island. The bill will also protect the asserted aboriginal rights and title by the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia by designating it as a national park reserve. Sable Island holds a special place in the hearts of Nova Scotians and Canadians across the country. In our constituency in particular people have long voiced their fondness for Sable Island and have come out in support of the legislation to make the island a national park.Mr. Chair, I can wax lyrical about Sable Island. All of you have heard presentations from Canadians, but I'm not going to do that. With that, I'm going to cut out pages 5 and 6 of my presentation at your request, but if it's possible, I'd like to have them in the record as read.Aboriginal peoplesCanada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardGovernment of Nova ScotiaMi'kmaqNova ScotiaOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1900)[English]You still have a lot of time left if you care to use it.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (1900)[English]Oh, no, I'm not ending here. I'm just cutting out pages 5 and 6.HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1900)[English]I'm sorry, once you stop in this committee, you're done.Voices: Oh, oh!LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (1900)[English]I always thank people who ask questions about this legislation. I was talking with Ms. Rempel earlier about how great the questions have been and how non-partisan they've been. The direction of the questions is really all about protecting Sable Island. It's a very heartening process. It's a very encouraging process. I want to thank you and the committee for conducting this meeting and these hearings in that fashion. It really underlines the respect and fondness that we all have for Sable Island.Being designated as a national park has a number of advantages. It will guarantee a number of important protections and regulations for the island. It will help ensure that the beautiful wild and fragile island will remain as it should be for generations to come. This legislation will protect Sable Island as it deserves to be protected and as how so many people who care for the island want it to be protected. Designating this national preserve was a truly joint effort. Working collaboratively with our federal partners and other stakeholders, the team first evaluated which protection legislation would work best to legally protect Sable Island for the future. The assumption has always been and continues to be, Mr. Chair, that the status quo is not sustainable, that in a world where the coast guard is changing its role and where lighthouses are not as necessary, the status quo is just not sustainable. In fact, the law as it stands is a bit of an anachronism. It became abundantly clear that the best choice was to advance Sable Island for designation as part of the national parks system. Through the federal-provincial agreement, we began pursuing this plan. We then worked on the best way forward while considering various interests, including offshore petroleum resources. With that in mind, both the provincial and federal governments agreed to present legislation to prohibit drilling on the surface of Sable and out one nautical mile.The legislation will provide protection for the island while allowing access to the island for activities such as the emergency evacuation of offshore workers and for low-impact petroleum exploration activities. These activities and any such activities will require adherence to a code of practice for the protection of the island and will be regulated by the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board in consultation with Parks Canada.We have the utmost confidence in our partners' ability to serve as regulators for this code of practice. After three decades, the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board has developed a great deal of experience in this area, and Parks Canada is well versed in the environmental protection, conservation, and stewardship needed to ensure the island is safe and secure both now and in years to come. Parks Canada has been a committed partner in this process, and the consultation itself was a vote of confidence in Parks Canada and its ability to manage this heavy responsibility.Once this legislation is enshrined in law, Sable Island's surface will never again be drilled. The petroleum companies strongly support this measure and volunteered to amend their discovery licences to follow this provision. These licences have now been amended and were approved by the federal and provincial ministers.We strongly support the development of a memorandum of understanding between Parks Canada and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board to develop a protocol for low-impact petroleum activities and the way they may or may not be conducted on Sable Island. We are committed to this process and the public consultation that will help shape and support the memorandum of understanding.Public consultation is a key part of the shared responsibility. Those of us who have been involved in Sable Island for a number of years now know that the public cares passionately about Sable Island, and any time you have public consultation, you will have a very open, transparent, and vigorous process.We have been engage along with Parks Canada in consultation with Mi'kmaq representatives on the creation of the national park reserve. We are pleased that there has been progress towards an agreement that would see the Mi'kmaq undertake research on and about Sable to help us and them learn more about their ancestors' possible linkages to the island.Along with the Mi'kmaq, we are truly working together—the provincial government, the federal government, and business—to ensure that the significant cultural heritage and ecological value of Sable Island are understood and maintained. The amendments to the accord act are another step in the process towards completing the designation of Sable Island as Canada's 43rd national park.The Nova Scotia House of Assembly passed mirror legislation to this effect. Nova Scotia will continue to carry out this important work on Sable Island, such as scientific research and environmental, climate change, weather, and air monitoring. We have made a continuing commitment to stay involved and engaged. (1905)Nova Scotia will provide advice on the ongoing management of the island through the Canada-Nova Scotia offshore committee. We will continue to provide input on a number of topics.I would like to thank and commend Parks Canada for their consultative approach to the establishment of Sable Island as a national park reserve and for an ongoing commitment to stakeholder inclusion. We look forward to further discussions with Parks Canada as they move forward with the management planning and in the actual ongoing management of this unique site. Sable Island is part of Nova Scotia's and Canada's history, and as part of the national parks system, it will be a special part of the future. I would like to thank Minister Kent; Minister MacKay; Minister Parker, the Minister of Energy and Minister of Natural Resources; Harold Carroll; a number of other people who've been involved; and all our hard-working staff who have been involved in this process. I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak here. I look forward to the discussion.Aboriginal peoplesCanada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardGovernment of Nova ScotiaMi'kmaqNova ScotiaOil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1910)[English]Thank you for being understanding of our time constraints. I appreciate that very much.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (1910)[English]I just barely got it in.HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1910)[English]Well, you were a little over, but that was partly my fault. I'll take responsibility for that.We'll move now to Mr. Stuart Pinks, CEO of the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board.Mr. Pinks.LeonardPreyraHon.StuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks (Chief Executive Officer, Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board): (1910)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to appear before the committee this evening. I'll try to jump through my speaking notes which I think all of you have copies of, and try to hit some of the highlights to try to meet the five-minute time commitment.My name is Stuart Pinks. I'm the chief executive officer for the board. I'm joined by Elizabeth MacDonald, who is an adviser on environmental affairs and a conservation officer with our board. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to communicate our support for Bill S-15. Sable Island has long been the centre of oil and gas activity in the offshore Nova Scotia area since hydrocarbon exploration began back in the 1960s. To date, all the discoveries and the production that have been made in the Nova Scotia offshore have been within 60 kilometres of Sable Island, and a significant amount of that within 12 kilometres of Sable Island. The coexistence of Sable Island with the oil and gas industry has been going on successfully for quite awhile.When the board was first advised of the changes in the status of Sable Island in November 2011, the board approached the licence holders in the area who voluntarily agreed to amend the terms and conditions for the five significant discovery licences that encompass or are within one nautical mile of the island. These licences were issued prior to the board being formed and give the rights holders tenure.These amendments prohibit drilling from the surface of the island or within one nautical mile seaward of the low watermark of the island. We know this prohibition has been ingrained in the proposed legislation that is now before the House.We understand that the current debate in relation to the proposed legislation has, in part, been centred on the definition of low-impact exploration activity that may be allowed to be carried out within the national park reserve. Our commitment is that once this legislation goes into effect, the board in partnership with Parks Canada intends to develop and publish guidance and interpretation notes addressing this matter.The development of guidance and interpretation notes is contemplated under the accord acts and they form an important part of our regulatory regime. Public consultation will be a key component of this process.Experience has shown that when conducted using appropriate equipment, work practices, and mitigation, the type of activities contemplated on the island can be carried out with little or no lasting impact on the environment. These include things like geochemical studies and seismic-type work. I think the committee is aware that in 1999 a four month low-impact seismic program was carried out successfully on Sable Island by what was then Mobil Oil Canada. The program and the code of practice were carefully observed by Zoe Lucas who lives on the island. Upon completion she concluded that in general the program had only limited and short-term impact on Sable Island.Upon or prior to receiving an application by an operator to carry out any proposed exploration program for possible authorization, regardless of whether it is on the ocean or on Sable Island, the board would require an environmental assessment up front. In conducting this assessment, public comment periods are provided for. In order for the board to consider the issuance of an authorization, the environmental assessment would have to demonstrate that there would be a low likelihood of significant adverse environmental effects following the implementation of the project-specific mitigation from carrying out the proposed program.Should work be proposed within the national park reserve, the board will solicit input and advice from Parks Canada among others. The requirement for low-impact exploration would drive consideration of, and potential implementation of, additional mitigation to further minimize or remove any potential environmental effects on all surrounding ecosystem components, including landscape, vegetation, wildlife, and marine life. Each operator would be required to develop and submit for board review and acceptance a code of practice specific to the work to be done on or around the island.I wanted to speak very briefly to the fact that our board underwent an extensive audit by the federal Auditor General's Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. They looked at some 10,000 records generated between our board and the Newfoundland board and other federal parties. The report that was published in February 2003 concluded that the board exercises due diligence when assessing and approving offshore projects and activities; the board takes adequate steps to ensure that operators comply with environmental requirements; and overall, the board manages the current environmental impacts associated with natural gas activities in the Nova Scotia offshore area in a manner consistent with the size and scale of current operations.(1915)Having those types of comments made by the federal Auditor General after an almost two-year review of the activities that our board undertakes was, to me, a huge vote of confidence.In closing, the board supports the amendments to the Canada National Parks Act designating Sable Island as a national park reserve and the resulting amendments to the accord acts. The amendments to the accord acts reflect board policy that has been in place for many years for exploration licences. The establishment of this reserve is an example of government, industry, and the regulator cooperating to achieve a common goal, the protection of Sable Island.In summary, I would ask that you consider the following points as you move forward.One, the board commits to, in partnership with Parks Canada, develop guidance and interpretation notes to give definition to the term “low-impact exploration activities”.Two, low-impact seismic activity occurred on Sable Island in 1999 and also previously in 1996. There were no significant adverse environmental effects from this program, according to the report that was prepared by Zoe Lucas, who I think is joining us as well.Three, under the proposed bill, Parks Canada will have to be consulted and their views considered before any low-impact activities occur on Sable Island, which is not the case now. We could authorize those activities today without having to consult with Parks Canada.Four, an environmental assessment, including a public component, will be required before any low-impact activity can take place on Sable Island.Five, the federal Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development recently expressed confidence in the board's execution of its environmental protection mandate.Thank you again for the opportunity to provide the board's perspective on this matter. I look forward to some of the upcoming questions.Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardCode of practiceEnvironmental assessmentNature conservationOil and gasParks Canada AgencyPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English]Thank you, Mr. Pinks. You're right on seven minutes, right on the button. We're going to move now to ExxonMobil Canada and its president, Andrew Barry.Mr. Barry.StuartPinksAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry (President, ExxonMobil Canada Ltd.): (1915)[English]Thank you very much for this opportunity. I'm going to try to skip through this presentation to meet my seven-minute time schedule, but you have copies that you can read, as required.For those of you who are unfamiliar, ExxonMobil Canada is a leading developer of petroleum resources off Canada’s east coast, with offices in Halifax and St. John’s. ExxonMobil also has a presence in Canada through our majority ownership of Imperial Oil, with whom we share many process systems and technologies.In Nova Scotia we operate the Sable offshore energy project, which is located more than 200 kilometres off the coast. There we produce natural gas from several platforms located in shallow waters and spread across several hundred square kilometres in the vicinity of Sable Island. Our co-venturers are Shell, Imperial Oil, Pengrowth Energy, and Mosbacher Operating Ltd.The Sable project introduced a new source of clean energy to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and enabled the development of pipeline infrastructure that now connects these provinces to the North American natural gas market. The pipeline infrastructure has also allowed the development of subsequent fields, such as in Encana's Deep Panuke project, which is scheduled to start up production soon.Total Sable project spending by year-end 2012 was $6.5 billion, including approximately $2.5 billion in Nova Scotia. Benefits from the Sable project include direct and indirect employment, spending on goods and services, funding of research and development, as well as education and training, contributions to local community organizations, and the payment of municipal, provincial, and federal taxes. In addition, the Sable project’s co-venturers pay offshore royalties. To date, the province reports that it has received more than $1.7 billion in royalties from the Sable project.Sable Island has been extremely important to our work in Nova Scotia and to our ability to safely deliver these benefits. For us, with our production facilities nearby, the island is a valuable safe refuge. It gives our standby vessels shelter from storms, and we know our helicopters can land there in case of an emergency.Going back to the start-up of natural gas production in 1999 and exploration work that dates back 40 years, we feel privileged to have had the opportunity to work with stakeholders, including experts like Zoe Lucas, to help protect the island. We are proud that the Sable project is an example of how the oil and gas industry can coexist with a sensitive ecosystem and even enhance its protection.We've provided funding for scientific research about seabirds and marine mammals and about the flora and fauna that call Sable Island their home, including the island's famous wild horses. This research includes a nesting bird census and a long-term survey of beached birds; a study of plants and invertebrate communities on the island; research on lichens, which are extremely sensitive to environmental changes and very good indicators of the island's health; and atmospheric research, including airshed monitoring and the study of tropospheric ozone. We've also helped with beach cleanups and other projects to restore terrain and dunes that have been disturbed in the past.In 2011 we were pleased to collaborate when asked by our regulator on behalf of the provincial and federal governments to make amendments to our licences that would further codify a protected one nautical mile buffer around the island. We worked with the other industry interest holders to amend the relevant licences and provide the island with this additional protection.For us the proposed park designation not only ensures that Sable Island will be protected for future generations, but also recognizes the importance of oil and gas activity in the area near the island.Much has been made of the provisions in the bill that allow directional drilling below the island and also low-impact seismic activity on the island. Please allow me to clarify that ExxonMobil has no plans for additional drilling on licences near to Sable Island. In 2010 we said publicly that we would market our licences in the area to other parties that may have interest in their development. To date this has not been successful.That being said, we firmly believe these activities can be carried out in ways that do not negatively affect the environment. While we do not have plans for these activities, we cannot speak for other interest holders and their view of the future. We believe that in designating Sable Island as a park the public interest in potential future development of petroleum resources need not be compromised. The same is true for the private sector's interest in this development.(1920)We believe that our record is proof that the industry can work in harmony with this special ecosystem, and that it would be short-sighted to foreclose potential future economic development with prohibitions which, in the end, add no meaningful added protection to this island.We believe both the provincial and federal governments recognized this balance by approaching us with the idea of amending the licences to prevent drilling on the island surface, which were already part of our code of practice. We are pleased to support this extra measure of protection, and we are delighted to be part of the practical plan to ensure that Sable Island will be protected for future generations of Nova Scotians and Canadians. Thank you. ExxonMobil Canada Ltd.Nature conservationOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1920)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Barry. We'll move now to the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society. We have in person with us, Alison Woodley, the national conservation director. I understand Chris Miller, the conservation biologist, is with us by way of teleconference. Alison, I believe you'll begin with the opening statement. Please proceed. AndrewBarryAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlison-WoodleyInterventionMs. Alison Woodley (National Conservation Director, Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society): (1920)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good evening. My name is Alison Woodley and I am the national director of the parks program for the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, or CPAWS. As Mr. Chairman mentioned, also joining us this evening from Nova Scotia is Dr. Chris Miller, who is CPAWS' national conservation biologist. Chris has been leading our work on Sable Island. [Translation]Thank you to the members of the committee for having invited us to participate in this meeting to present our thoughts on Bill S-15.[English]CPAWS is Canada's voice for parks and public wilderness protection. For 50 years we've played a key role in the establishment of Canada's protected areas, including many of our national parks. We've been following the various debates on Bill S-15 quite closely in both Ottawa and in Nova Scotia. We're pleased to hear what appears to be overwhelming support for protecting Sable Island which, as everyone knows, is a very interesting and unique piece of Canada. Like the other witnesses, rather than reiterate all the reasons why Sable Island is so special and deserves our highest level of protection, which has been discussed very well, including during our testimony at the Senate committee, we'll cut to the chase on what we feel are the key issues.CPAWS is strongly supportive of a national park designation for Sable Island. In fact, we first proposed this as an option for protecting Sable way back in 1971, so we're very pleased that the governments of Canada and Nova Scotia are taking the steps required to make the national park a reality. The national park designation is a big improvement over the status quo and will result in much stronger habitat protection for the flora and fauna of the island. Parks Canada has a requirement to manage national parks for ecological integrity as a first priority and must develop a management plan that addresses this. The previous management structure for Sable Island using outdated regulations in the Shipping Act is not tenable over the long term and doesn't offer the sorts of ecosystem protections that many Canadians expect of this important location. CPAWS is very concerned about the prospect of oil and gas exploration being allowed to occur on Sable Island. The ocean all around Sable Island is available for industry and we feel that the sliver of sand that is Sable Island should be left free from any such industrial activity. Specifically on the issue of allowing low-impact oil exploration, driving thumper trucks onto the beaches at Sable, stringing lines across the island, and digging listening devices into the sand, as has been described, are not what we would consider to be low-impact activities, nor are they appropriate activities in a national park, which should be off limits to all oil and gas exploration and development activities. We also believe they run counter to what most people want for Sable Island, which is simply for it to be left alone as much as possible and to remain this wild and free place that so many Canadians cherish.For these reasons we are requesting that the clauses of Bill S-15 that would allow for oil and gas exploration activities to occur on Sable Island be removed. In summary, CPAWS is strongly supportive of a national park for Sable Island. We want this legislation to move forward, and we are requesting amendments to strengthen protection of the island from oil and gas activities.I would also like to share some brief comments on clause 15 of the bill, which includes the proposed change to the leasehold boundary of the Marmot Basin ski area in Jasper National Park. We do not have a specific amendment to put forward here, but I do want to highlight that in exchange for the reduction in the leasehold area of the Marmot Basin ski area, there are new development proposals being considered that could have a significant impact on wildlife in the park, including on caribou which are identified as threatened under the federal Species at Risk Act. For new development to be considered outside the current footprint of a ski area, Parks Canada policy requires the operator to demonstrate that there will be a substantial environmental gain from the overall plan. This net gain is not achieved by the redrawing of the leasehold boundary, but rather by the overall impact of developments and activities on wildlife and ecosystems, both inside and outside the current footprint and the leasehold areas. The developments and activities determine whether there's a substantial environmental gain. In the case of Marmot Basin, CPAWS is particularly concerned about Jasper's woodland caribou, which have dropped to critically low numbers and are at risk of disappearing entirely from the park. There is a study under way to better understand the importance of the Marmot area to caribou and other wildlife, and given the precarious state of this species, no development that could potentially result in any further risk to caribou in the park should be allowed to proceed. As final decisions are made about developments at Marmot Basin in Jasper, we will be looking to Parks Canada to uphold its responsibility to put ecological integrity first in its decision-making.Thank you again for the opportunity to present today on behalf of CPAWS. We will be pleased to answer any questions.Canadian Parks and Wilderness SocietyEconomic developmentNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesNature conservationOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1925)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Woodley.We'll move now to teleconference with Ecology Action Centre. Mark Butler is the policy director.Mr. Butler, please proceed.AlisonWoodleyMarkButlerMarkButlerMark-ButlerInterventionMr. Mark Butler (Policy Director, Ecology Action Centre): (1925)[English]Thank you for this opportunity. My presentation will be under five minutes.The Ecology Action Centre has been actively involved in protecting Sable Island for over a decade. We've been a member of the government-led Sable Island stakeholder advisory committee for many years. We held our first event in 2004, in association with Zoe Lucas and the Sable Island Green Horse Society. Every year since we have held an annual update that attracts over 300 people, a testament to the ongoing interest in the island and its protection. We first became involved because there was good chance the federal government would close the Sable Island station. The Ecology Action Centre, along with many other groups and citizens, strongly made the case that the island required a year-round human presence. Luckily and eventually the federal government agreed and committed to maintaining a year-round human presence on the island.The Ecology Action Centre, along with the Green Horse Society and CPAWS, was supportive of Sable Island becoming a national park when first proposed in 2010. We have maintained that support over the last three years. Despite significant public concern that by making Sable Island a national park Canadians might love it to death through increased visitation and supporting infrastructure, the EAC has seen the designation as the best possible outcome for the island.We supported park designation for a number of reasons, including the expectation that the designation would result in the exclusion of oil and gas activities from the island. In the summer of 2011, the EAC participated in Parks Canada's consultation on the island as a national park. We made the following comment regarding oil and gas activity: The EAC opposes oil and gas activities on Sable Island including seismic. We would encourage licence holders to relinquish any existing licences on Sable Island. In addition, oil and gas activities should be kept as far away as possible from Sable Island both to reduce the impacts of pollution on the Island and to protect the integrity of the visitor experience. The federal and provincial government should expand the current 1 nautical mile exclusion zone and put it into law. Parks Canada should not make any arrangement regarding sub-surface petroleum rights for Sable Island which would set a bad precedent for other national parks in Canada.Consequently, we are disappointed to see that with this legislation, drilling under the island is still permitted, the exclusion zone has not been expanded, and—we hadn't expected this—exploration is allowed on the island.There are effectively no new protections for Sable Island from oil and gas activity. We appreciate that the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board guidelines around surface drilling and the one nautical mile exclusion zone are now being enshrined in legislation. However, in practice most of us realize that it would be highly unlikely for any oil company to propose drilling on Sable itself, or in the surf and shallow water immediately adjacent to the island, or to do high-impact seismic on the island. Because of the shape of the island, which is long and narrow like a banana, a drill rig one nautical mile from the island will feel like it's on top of the island.In terms of impacts, our main concerns are flaring, light and noise, produced water, and small spills. If there is a large spill, it probably won't matter whether the rig is one or five nautical miles away. We're happy to elaborate on these concerns.We are opposed to the proposed amendments in the current form because of the ecological risk to the island and the precedent they set for other national parks, if not in legislation, in the public's mind. We are also worried that this decision erodes the public's confidence in Nova Scotia's and the federal government's resolve to stand up for Sable Island on other matters, such as tourism. We note that both governments have received considerable praise for their decision to protect the island. At EAC we were happy to add our voices to that praise.We also like to think that the government is also willing to take tough decisions on behalf of the island. We have followed some of the deliberations in Parliament. We are distressed that MPs and senators are in a position of having to choose between a park that permits oil and gas activities in its boundaries or delaying the establishment of a national park. It is an unfortunate choice, and one which we think could have been avoided.There is a tremendous amount of goodwill within government and industry when it comes to Sable Island. Of course, the level of public interest and support for the island never ceases to amaze.Because we weren't part of the discussions, we can only surmise, but we feel that both the federal and provincial governments missed an opportunity to bring all the players together to hammer out a deal that puts the best interests of the island first.(1930) As far as we know, the oil companies were never explicitly asked not to do low-impact seismic on the island, or not to do directional drilling under the island. They agreed to what they were asked to do by the government. If for whatever reason there is an opportunity to improve on this legislation, we would encourage that there be frank and inclusive discussions about how to meet the interests of the licence holders, while keeping oil and gas activities out of the park.Thank you for your time and your work to protect Sable Island. Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardEcology Action CentreOil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsTourismHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1930)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Butler. We will move now to Zoe Lucas, from Nova Scotia, from Sable Island. Welcome, Zoe. MarkButlerZoeLucasZoeLucasZoe-LucasInterventionMs. Zoe Lucas (As an Individual): (1935)[English]Hello. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address the committee. I began working on Sable Island in 1974, and since the mid-1980s I've spent eight to eleven months on the island each year. My work has included dune restoration studies, studies of seals and horses, biodiversity surveys, and environmental monitoring. Among the environmental monitoring projects that I conduct is a long-term beached oiled seabird survey conducted for the offshore energy industry as part of its environmental effects monitoring program. This ongoing survey, done once every four to six weeks since 1993—Individual presentationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1935)[English]Excuse me for just one minute. Apparently we're having difficulty with translation. ZoeLucasZoeLucasZoeLucasZoe-LucasInterventionMs. Zoe Lucas: (1935)[English]Okay, do you want to go to just asking any questions?HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1935)[English]Just one moment. We're checking to see if they have it. We believe they have it, but maybe haven't located it. We were warned that the quality of the sound might not be great, so we're struggling with that. If you would just give us a minute or two, we'll see if we can resolve it.We're going to try again, Ms. Lucas. Perhaps you could speak a little more slowly. We're going to see if our translators can pick up the quality of the sound, so proceed again, please. I'm sorry about the interruption. ZoeLucasZoeLucasZoeLucasZoe-LucasInterventionMs. Zoe Lucas: (1935)[English]Should I start from the beginning?HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1935)[English]No, just carry on from where you were. ZoeLucasZoeLucasZoeLucasZoe-LucasInterventionMs. Zoe Lucas: (1935)[English]In the mid-1990s, I became involved in the campaign to address the long-term problem of securing government commitment for support of the Sable Island station. This involved working with the Ecology Action Centre and Mark Butler.To ensure environmental protection and conservation of Sable's natural values, a continuous human presence on the island is essential. There has been a government station on Sable since 1801, but for the first 150 years, the primary role of the station was to maintain aids to navigation and life-saving. The development of various technologies such as radar enabled ships to avoid the island. By the mid-1900s, the island's role as a hazard to navigation was greatly reduced. The Meteorological Service of Canada has been collecting weather data on Sable since 1871. Increasing scientific interest in the island generated awareness of its unique natural values and concerns about conservation and protection. Requests from tourists, media groups, as well as researchers to visit Sable have steadily increased. By the mid-1990s, it was clear that the Canada Shipping Act was no longer a good fit for management of the island. This, combined with budget cuts during program review, resulted in a decade of serious uncertainty about the future of the island.The announcement that the Government of Canada would consider national park status for Sable Island is great news. This status offers the highest level of protection and conservation available in Canada. Given the unique history and issues of the Sable Island situation, the very grave concerns about the island's future, and the four decades of experience with the offshore energy industry in this region, this makes for a stable solution that will work well for the island. The expertise, mandate, and resources of Parks Canada will provide a high level of long-term and continuous protection for Sable Island. Advice provided to the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board by Parks Canada will greatly increase the depth and breadth of the board's understanding of Sable's environmental and biodiversity issues.I support passage of Bill S-15 as is. Concerns arising from the amendment allowing for limited offshore energy activities can be addressed following the establishment of the Sable Island national park reserve. These concerns will most certainly be a consideration in the development of the Parks Canada management policy, and the guidance and interpretation on low-impact industry activities on the island will certainly improve that situation.I've skipped over some of the things I was going to say, just to keep it short, and given the poor quality of the line, I'll leave it at that. Thank you very much.Canada Shipping ActIndividual presentationNature conservationOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1940)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Lucas.I neglected to mention earlier that we also have with us, from the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board, Elizabeth MacDonald.We're going to go into our rounds of questioning. Because we have three people with us by way of teleconference, I'm going to ask our committee members to direct their questions to a specific witness, or two if they want, but I don't want just an open question where we wait to see who's going to answer. Please direct your questions specifically to a witness. I want to thank our witnesses again for their patience and forbearance with a shortened timeframe. Hopefully, with a question that's posed, you'll be able to get in some of the points you wanted to make in your opening statements. We're going to begin with Ms. Rempel, who has seven minutes.ZoeLucasMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel (Calgary Centre-North, CPC): (1940)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks to our witnesses.I'll very briefly but not adequately express the deep respect I have for everyone who has been involved in the development of this legislation over the decades. What we're seeing here tonight is the culmination of years of work, and you're all to be commended. Thank you for allowing us to take a small part in potentially making this legislation happen.I'll start with Minister Preyra. At a Senate committee meeting on April 16, 2003, Senator Patterson said this to you: “CPAWS has recommended that we amend the bill to not allow low-impact oil and gas exploration, not allow exploration activity of any kind on the island, and prohibit horizontal drilling under the island.” Basically, he was asking you if you had any comments on that. Your response was: “In a way, it is a deal breaker, or at least it sets us back to square one.” Would those comments still stand today?Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (1940)[English]I think they still stand, because at the moment what we're seeing is an alignment of different forces. You have different levels of government agreeing. You have a whole variety. You have new unanimity among the stakeholders. You have the industry involved. Bringing about that alignment has taken a long time. Yes, it would mean going back to square one. It would mean renegotiating agreements at a variety of different levels, and yes, it would set the process back.Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1940)[English]Thank you.Mr. Butler suggested tonight that should any exploration happen within the one nautical mile boundary area, it would feel as though it were right on top of the island. I believe those were his comments.In developing the one nautical mile boundary, what consultation was used, and what was the feedback as to the adequacy of that boundary to provide ecological integrity for Sable Island?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (1940)[English]I think there are two different questions there, and Zoe might be in a better position to answer part of it. The questions around habitat protection and the flora and fauna of Sable Island and the protection of Sable Island itself are separate from any issues relating to oil and gas exploration. As far as I know, there isn't any particular necessity to protect habitat. I think at the moment it's about five or six kilometres offshore, and it hasn't posed any environmental difficulties. I know that aesthetically there will be some, but when you're on the ocean, things loom large generally.One of the other members here might be in a better position to answer. S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1940)[English]Certainly. Go ahead briefly.LeonardPreyraHon.AndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (1940)[English]At the moment the closest facility to Sable Island that we have is about nine kilometres off the coast. That's our Venture pipeline. Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]Mr. Pinks. AndrewBarryStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1945)[English]Actually, one of your unmanned platforms is even closer, though. I think the South Venture platform is about six kilometres from the island. Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]Great.To continue, clause 3 of this bill, in proposed subsection 41.2(1) says:Existing leases, easements and licences of occupation in or on Sable Island...are continued under this Act in accordance with their terms and conditions....What consultation process would be used should any of that need to be amended in the future? My understanding, based on Parks Canada management and on the process that's been developed for this particular part, is that any time we demand a lease related to this, there would be extensive community consultation. Is that correct?That question is for either Mr. Pinks or Minister Preyra. Oil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1945)[English]If I understand the question correctly, what we call SDL, significant discovery licences, were voluntarily amended ahead of this legislation in consultation among government, the regulators, and the interest holders like ExxonMobil.Everybody has agreed that there would be, within those significant discovery licences, no drilling from the island or within one nautical mile. That was done collaboratively. Oil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]Briefly, Mr. Pinks, we've heard a lot of testimony back and forth here, and it's my understanding there may or may not be exploratory drilling happening on Sable Island. Could you briefly summarize your understanding as per what is proposed in this legislation of what would be allowed on Sable Island?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1945)[English]The legislation has a couple of notes in that regard. One is that it would prohibit exploratory drilling for drilling of a well, either an exploration well or a production well. For the purposes of exploring for or producing hydrocarbons, drilling is prohibited on the island and within one nautical mile of the island. There are activities that could be conducted on the island, and they are the low-impact activities that are identified through the geophysical and the geological seismic-type programs. I can come back to those in a minute. Access is allowed for maintenance of pre-existing wellheads and for emergency response situations. If you had to evacuate a platform or a drilling rig in close proximity, there would be a place of safe harbour. The provisions are well spelled out. With regard to the low-impact activities that are described, as I said in my opening remarks, if those are carried out using the appropriate equipment, appropriate mitigation, and appropriate procedures, really by definition they are low impact. That doesn't mean that we wouldn't—S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]I'm sorry, but my time is short. Perhaps I could interject very carefully. Would you and Mr. Barry support the continued discussions, through either the parks management plan development or an MOU, on actually defining what low impact would be in that regard? S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1945)[English]Along with Parks Canada we have already committed to immediately developing guidance and interpretive notes around what low impact would mean, and we will publicly consult. S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]Mr. Barry. StuartPinksAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (1945)[English]We're supportive of that. S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]Excellent. Very quickly, with the time I have remaining, Ms. Woodley, would you characterize this legislation as a net gain for the ecological integrity of Sable Island?Nature conservationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsAndrewBarryAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlison-WoodleyInterventionMs. Alison Woodley: (1945)[English]Yes, we would.Nature conservationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]Would you, Mr. Butler?AlisonWoodleyMarkButlerMarkButlerMark-ButlerInterventionMr. Mark Butler: (1945)[English]Yes, but as I said in my presentation, it's unfortunate we're in this situation of having to choose between delaying the park and limiting or allowing oil and gas activity.Nature conservationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]I have the same question for Ms. Lucas.MarkButlerZoeLucasZoeLucasZoe-LucasInterventionMs. Zoe Lucas: (1945)[English][Inaudible—Editor]...improvement, for sure.MichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1945)[English]Okay. We've exhausted our time for Ms. Rempel.ZoeLucasFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette (Drummond, NDP): (1945)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Would it be possible to hear Ms. Lucas' answer again? We couldn't understand it at all.HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempelHon.Michelle-RempelCalgary Centre-NorthConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Michelle Rempel: (1945)[English]Ms. Lucas, my question put to Ms. Woodley and Mr. Butler was whether you would characterize this legislation as having a net gain for the ecological integrity of Sable Island park. FrançoisChoquetteDrummondZoeLucasZoeLucasZoe-LucasInterventionMs. Zoe Lucas: (1945)[English]Yes, it does.Nature conservationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMichelleRempelHon.Calgary Centre-NorthHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1945)[English]Thank you very much.We'll move now to Ms. Leslie for seven minutes.ZoeLucasMeganLeslieHalifax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58550MeganLeslieMegan-LeslieHalifaxNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LeslieMegan_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Megan Leslie (Halifax, NDP): (1945)[English]Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you very much to all the witnesses for being here and helping us work through this legislation.I know this legislation and the issue of Sable Island is important to all of you. I also know that you have either read the transcript of our last committee meeting, or you tuned in live, or you read the speeches in the House. I know you're very well acquainted with what we've been discussing both at committee and in the House. I know that you also know that the NDP does have some issues with the legislation. As Mark Butler of the Ecology Action Centre pointed out, we are in a situation where we are having to make a choice. Do we pass this bill and ensure that protection of Sable Island? I guess the other choice is we don't pass it. We weren't a part of the discussions for the MOU, for example. We weren't a part of making this deal. I'll start by saying our preference is no exploration on the island, and we have an amendment to that effect. We'll see if it passes. At the very least, I think it's important to define what low-impact exploration is, because there is no definition in the offshore accord act or in the parks act. I was pleased to hear that the province supports that as well.Minister Preyra, have you any other words of assurance that this is a good way to go for the province? There is a problem here with needing mirror legislation.Nova ScotiaOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (1950)[English]There's no question about it, and if you don't mind, Mr. Chair, I'll give a little longer answer.I think one of the things we need to remember is that these licences preceded the creation of this park, which puts us in an unusual situation. Our understanding is, and as Mr. Pinks has repeated, currently the board has the authority to make these decisions without any other regulation. Directives have been issued on environmental assessments, but the board has the authority. Significant improvements are being made here that will set parameters around the board's decision-making. There will be consultation between the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board and Parks Canada, and Parks Canada has a very strong tradition of environmental conservation and stewardship. There will be commitment to developing a draft definition of protocol. That protocol will be put out for consultation among the stakeholders. I talked in my presentation about how extraordinary the passion is among the stakeholders, among the public, as it relates to Sable, and I pity anyone who engages in that kind of consultation and expects to get an outcome that will do any harm to Sable. Of course coming out of that, there will be a mechanism under which the accord act will give effect to it through regulation, or directives, or guidance, or through an MOU. When we talk about exploration, we don't know what it will mean, but I can guarantee that going through that process we will end up with something very close to what even some of the critics are calling for in terms of low impact.Nova ScotiaOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMeganLeslieHalifaxMeganLeslieHalifax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58550MeganLeslieMegan-LeslieHalifaxNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LeslieMegan_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Megan Leslie: (1950)[English]We've had a lot of talk about precedent, and my colleague Ms. Duncan put some pointed questions to Parks Canada about the precedent that this may or may not create. One way that I've been thinking about it is it's not that a park is being created with oil and gas just outside the boundaries, it's that we're creating a park in a gas field, which has a lot of challenges, but is ultimately a good thing.Mr. Barry, let's just say for argument's sake the bill passes and we create a park so that piece is done. I recognize that you don't represent all industry, but do you think that industry would be open to continue discussions about the one nautical mile limit and possible expansion, or about surface exploration? Do you think that conversation could continue?ExxonMobil Canada Ltd.Oil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsLeonardPreyraHon.AndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (1950)[English]Yes, I think as you look back at the activities we have had there, the Sable project is a shining example of the cooperation and ability to produce oil and gas effectively in close proximity to the island. We've been doing that for many years very successfully.The issue we have in front of us at the moment is that clearly, when you talk about removing the opportunity to do directional drilling or do drilling underneath the island, that is removing the opportunity to develop the resource as such.We firmly believe that—ExxonMobil Canada Ltd.Oil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMeganLeslieHalifaxMeganLeslieHalifax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58550MeganLeslieMegan-LeslieHalifaxNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LeslieMegan_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Megan Leslie: (1950)[English]Sorry, but could you explain that a bit? I'm not sure I follow.AndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (1950)[English]If you remove the opportunity to drill underneath the island, you remove the opportunity to develop that resource.ExxonMobil Canada Ltd.Oil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMeganLeslieHalifaxMeganLeslieHalifax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58550MeganLeslieMegan-LeslieHalifaxNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LeslieMegan_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Megan Leslie: (1955)[English]In its entirety?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (1955)[English]When you say “in its entirety”, and you think about the resource and the gas field that is underneath the island, to be able to access that gas field you essentially need to drill into the appropriate location that might be under the island. Now, the exact location of that is unknown at this stage.We know today the development is not economic, but we don't know what it might be in the future. When you talk about drilling wells underneath the island, it's important to recognize that the location of these wells is two kilometres to three kilometres underneath the surface of the island. So we're not drilling a couple of metres off the surface; it's very deep. Depending on where you need to access the resource to effectively develop it, it depends greatly on how it's all made up.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsMeganLeslieHalifaxMeganLeslieHalifax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58550MeganLeslieMegan-LeslieHalifaxNew Democratic Party CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LeslieMegan_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Megan Leslie: (1955)[English]Okay. I was actually going to ask about the directional drilling piece to the CNSOPB, because a lot of people are contacting us saying, “What? You're going to support a bill that allows drilling under Sable Island?” What would you say to Canadians who are concerned about horizontal directional drilling? How do we reassure people? One reassurance is that this is.... How far below did you say it was?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (1955)[English]It's two or so kilometres below the surface of Sable Island, so it's very deep.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsMeganLeslieHalifaxStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1955)[English]It might even be a little bit deeper than that. It's two kilometres at the shallowest. There are three fields that sit under Sable Island. There's Olympia West Sable...there are two west Sable fields. The numbers I have for the three fields are anywhere from two kilometres to five kilometres underneath.Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (1955)[English]There's no activity happening close to the surface of the island. We can confidently say there won't be any impact on the surface of the island as we drill two kilometres to five kilometres underneath the island.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1955)[English]Thank you very much.We're going to move now to Mr. Woodworth, for seven minutes.AndrewBarryStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth (Kitchener Centre, CPC): (1955)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to all of the witnesses, including those joining us by teleconference.There are a couple of things I'd like to clarify, and I'll begin with the question of drilling. As I understand it, this bill and the agreement it formalizes prohibit any surface drilling on Sable Island. I'll direct my question to Mr. Pinks. Am I correct in that understanding?Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1955)[English]It would prohibit any drilling of a well on Sable Island—Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1955)[English]Okay. That's partly what I wanted to get at.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1955)[English]—in the exclusion zone.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1955)[English]Are there other kinds of drilling that may occur other than drilling for a well?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1955)[English]Not in the same context of what you're using. You have the possibility of collecting geotechnical-type samples. You're probably there with a shovel and a spade, or you might have a hand auger or something like that to collect some samples, but it's not the drilling that you're thinking of, with a drilling unit that's drilling kilometres down under the surface.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1955)[English]If I were to be talking of exploratory drilling, that could be just with a hand auger. That might be considered exploratory drilling.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1955)[English]Exploratory drilling is defined in the act as exploratory drilling of a well that is for hydrocarbons.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1955)[English]That would be prohibited under the terms of this act and the agreement. S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1955)[English]That would be prohibited.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (1955)[English]Thank you.The low-impact activities that are contemplated include not only seismic, but also something called magnetics, gravity and geochemical studies. Could you give us a brief description of what kinds of impacts those three kinds of studies would have?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (1955)[English]It would be extremely limited to none, in terms of environmental impact. There are programs called aeromagnetics that look at fluctuations in the magnetic field. People who specialize in that area can interpret distortions of a magnetic field as an indicator of oil and gas reserves. An aeromagnetic program is run by flying. You fly with the receivers, the equipment for detecting that shift in magnetic field, in an airplane.If you look at geochemical-type studies, they're typically right at the surface, and they're looking for anomalies. In some areas of the world, you actually have natural seeps where oil and gas actually seep to the surface. You can dig a little hole and look at the sand and you can tell if there's any naturally occurring hydrocarbons, which would give you an indication of something underground.We're not talking real industrial activities with those types of programs.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]Let me put the point on that then. Is there any possibility that any activity with significant negative impacts would be considered by the board as low impact?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (2000)[English]No, the first thing that we would do.... When you look at Sable Island, we would look at this in a two-part process, actually a multi-part process. When you get right to the environmental assessment piece, we would use the CEAA definition, which means we would look to make sure there's no significant adverse environmental effects, but we would go beyond that when it comes to low impact. We would say that those activities might be allowed under that test, but under the test of low impact we're going to be looking for additional mitigation that could be implemented, different methods that could be implemented to lower impact further.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]Would this would be done in the context of a full environmental assessment of the proposal?Environmental assessmentOil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (2000)[English]Correct.Environmental assessmentOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]In such an assessment would you be giving public notice and allowing opportunity for public submission?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (2000)[English]Elizabeth, do you want to talk about that?StephenWoodworthKitchener CentreElizabethMacDonaldElizabethMacDonaldElizabeth-MacDonaldInterventionMrs. Elizabeth MacDonald (Advisor, Environmental Affairs, Conservation Officer, Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board): (2000)[English]Absolutely. The CNSOPB does environmental assessments for seismic programs. We will be doing what we call an accord act environmental assessment for any proposed seismic, and that would include effects on wildlife, and if there's anything in the marine environment, effects on the marine environment, and air quality, commitments for air quality monitoring and such. Sable Island has been considered in our strategic environmental assessment, which is done at the call for bids stage, as a special area. We completed a strategic environmental assessment in 2012 that included the Sable Island area.Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStuartPinksStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]I'm not sure if I missed it, but all of that would include public notice and a call for public input. Am I correct?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsElizabethMacDonaldElizabethMacDonaldElizabethMacDonaldElizabeth-MacDonaldInterventionMrs. Elizabeth MacDonald: (2000)[English]Yes. That strategic environmental assessment included a public consultation, and the EA that would follow would include public consultation as well.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]May I give Mr. Preyra an opportunity to respond to this as well?ElizabethMacDonaldLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (2000)[English]I know the answers have been couched in “in the present” and “in the past”, but the future process is going to be significantly different. It will be guided by a new player at the table, Parks Canada, and the Offshore Petroleum Board protocol that will result from a series of public consultations. It will be a very different definition of low impact, I suspect.Environmental assessmentOil and gasPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]By different do you mean more stringent?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (2000)[English]Yes, definitely, and I think the point being made here is that there was a directive given on strategic environmental assessments that already is pretty rigorous and this will just add to that.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]Very good. I want to say, by the way, I'm very grateful to hear the comments of the environmental commissioner on the degree of rigour that the board already applies. I was reassured by that.Mr. Preyra, are you able to tell me when Nova Scotia introduced its bill in the legislature on this? How long did it take to get it through to completion and passage?Government of Nova ScotiaPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (2000)[English]The actual public process started a long time ago, as some of the parties at the table know, but we introduced the bill in this past spring's sitting. There was unanimous consent in the legislature. We had similar types of discussions to what we're having here, but it did go through unanimously.Government of Nova ScotiaPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreStephenWoodworthKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58919StephenWoodworthStephen-WoodworthKitchener CentreConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/WoodworthStephen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Stephen Woodworth: (2000)[English]Excellent. Prior to that there was quite a significant period of time in which those consultations that you mentioned occurred. Is that correct?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (2000)[English]Yes. Parks Canada really is to be commended for the consultations and the process that resulted. The broad parameters that were established were a result of those consultations, including delegating to Parks Canada the authority to manage the island, both in terms of the visitation and what happens when you visit Sable Island.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsStephenWoodworthKitchener CentreHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2000)[English]Thank you, Mr. Woodworth.We'll move now to Ms. Duncan, for seven minutes.LeonardPreyraHon.KirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan (Etobicoke North, Lib.): (2000)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to all the witnesses for your time and effort tonight. I do have a concern that we are unable to hear first nations testify today. I think their input should be fundamental.I'll begin by asking you a question, Minister. Would you say that the Government of Nova Scotia and the Government of Canada have provided ample consultation with first nations in the ramp-up to negotiating, drafting, and tabling this bill?Aboriginal peoplesMi'kmaqPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (2000)[English]There has been a significant amount of consultation leading up to it. The Mi'kmaq in fact wrote a letter saying that they agreed with the creation of Sable national park. There have been discussions with Parks Canada that have also resulted in an agreement where Parks Canada will fund some of the research that will lead to establishing to what extent and where there was Mi'kmaq presence on Sable Island.The made-in-Nova Scotia process will continue, and we will continue to work with the Mi'kmaq representatives. Parks Canada will continue to work with Mi'kmaq representatives. The Mi'kmaq chiefs want the park to happen. Out of respect for the potential claims, we've called it a reserve, and that designation will remain until those outstanding issues are resolved.Aboriginal peoplesMi'kmaqPublic consultationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (2005)[English]Thank you. Mr. Pinks, according to this bill, the final authority on what activities can take place in and around Sable Island rests with your organization. While Parks Canada is required to provide counsel to the board, the board is not required to obey that advice. There's some nervousness out there. What assurances can you provide that you have the scientific capacity to make these decisions?Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsLeonardPreyraHon.StuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (2005)[English]As part of an activity authorization that we may receive, a full environmental assessment is done. Elizabeth just explained some of the ins and outs of that. Consultation from a scientific perspective is a significant component of that. We will take environmental assessments that we receive and we will solicit scientific advice and expertise from people at DFO, Environment Canada, and very much Parks Canada in this particular case, and others. We will collect all of that scientific input. The role of our board is to sift through that scientific input and make a final determination. Where science is offered to us with a proper scientific basis that is not conflicting.... You can imagine with a roomful of experts that you can sometimes get conflicting scientific input. We have to sift through that and decide what we accept, and which one we give credence to.Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (2005)[English]Thank you. I'd like to follow up on that, if I may.Why is it not proper for Parks Canada to be the last say when it comes to protecting the ecological integrity of the island?Nature conservationOil and gasParks Canada AgencyS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStuartPinksStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (2005)[English]Parks Canada would certainly have all of their input, and I can't really foresee a situation where we would not accept the input from Parks Canada. But with all due respect, Parks Canada is not the expert—and they would say the same thing—in oil and gas activities and in the management of oil and gas activities. Our board has been around for 20-odd years doing that very thing.Nature conservationOil and gasParks Canada AgencyS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (2005)[English]Thank you. Mr. Butler, very specifically, what elements would you like to see changed in this bill if you had a wish list?Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsStuartPinksMarkButlerMarkButlerMark-ButlerInterventionMr. Mark Butler: (2005)[English]I'd like to see the parties come together and agree to not do any exploration on the island, and I'd like to see parties come together to agree to either move the exclusion zone further out or leave it where it is and not allow horizontal drilling.Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (2005)[English]Okay. I appreciate that. As you know, Ms. Woodley, Sable Island is a very special place from a wildlife and ecosystem perspective, but also policy-wise. We have never put a national park in a functioning oil field. I'm really concerned, as Ms. Leslie said, about the precedent this may set. Are you concerned about having this park in an active oil field? I understand there's the legislation that's.... I've been told by Parks Canada that this will be protection. I've heard from Parks Canada that this will not take place, but it still could be perceived as a foot in the door. Are you concerned that it may set a precedent? National, provincial and territorial parks and reservesOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsMarkButlerAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlison-WoodleyInterventionMs. Alison Woodley: (2005)[English]Thank you, Ms. Duncan.Would it be possible to ask Chris Miller to respond? I'm happy to, but he's sitting there in Nova Scotia and well placed to respond as well.KirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (2005)[English]Yes, of course. AlisonWoodleyChrisMillerChrisMillerChris-MillerInterventionDr. Chris Miller (Conservation Biologist, Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society): (2005)[English]Yes, I can respond to that.As an organization, CPAWS is opposed to any oil and gas activity occurring on Sable Island or in any national park. On the specific issue of precedent, that's a bit different, because it has to do with the stacking of the two pieces of legislation, the Canada National Parks Act and the offshore accord implementation act. Because this bill does not amend the Canada National Parks Act, that actually, in our opinion, limits the concern of precedence, because it's the paramountcy clause contained in the offshore accord implementation act that creates this special circumstance where the possibility of oil and gas occurring within a national park exists.That being said, we know, or suspect, that in the future there may be individuals, companies, sectors, or even jurisdictions that might try to take advantage of that situation or try to suggest that there is a precedent there. We would look to Parks Canada, to the federal government, and to the Nova Scotia government to strongly refute any such assertation that a precedent had been set. National, provincial and territorial parks and reservesOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58877KirstyDuncanHon.Kirsty-DuncanEtobicoke NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DuncanKirsty_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kirsty Duncan: (2010)[English]Thank you so much.I have one last question for Mr. Pinks. The CNSOPB promotes oil and gas exploration in the area through providing licences and permits. On the other hand, it has an environmental oversight component. These could be perceived as being at odds with one another. How would you respond?Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardNature conservationOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsChrisMillerStuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (2010)[English]I'd respond by saying the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board does not promote exploration and development in the offshore. The Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board's responsibility is to regulate those companies that step forward and say that they have a desire to do those activities, and we have a rigorous authorization process in place. When it comes to the licences—you hit on the licences—we run a process, and that's all. The process is that we will post parcels for consideration. There's a single criterion. We will evaluate those bids. Those are fundamental decisions and the two levels of government decide whether those licences should be issued or not. We run on the licensing strictly a process. We do not promote the oil and gas development. We regulate, and we regulate to make sure it's done safely. Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum BoardNature conservationOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsKirstyDuncanHon.Etobicoke NorthHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2010)[English]Thank you very much.Thank you, Ms. Duncan.We're going to move now to the five-minute rounds, beginning with Madam Quach.StuartPinksAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach (Beauharnois—Salaberry, NDP): (2010)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to all of you. It is rare that we have the opportunity to hear both sides of the story. It is very interesting.My first questions are for Ms. Woodley.You said that despite the fact that you are in favour of creating the national reserve, or the park, you remain concerned about exploration activities. Even though some say it is low impact, you say it may not really be that low. Could you elaborate on that, please?National, provincial and territorial parks and reservesOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlison-WoodleyInterventionMs. Alison Woodley: (2010)[English]Again, is it okay if I defer to Dr. Miller?Anne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (2010)[Translation]Yes.AlisonWoodleyChrisMillerChrisMillerChris-MillerInterventionDr. Chris Miller: (2010)[English]Yes, I can respond to that.From our perspective, Sable Island is this incredibly sensitive ecosystem. It's a sand island located a couple of hundred kilometres off the coast of Nova Scotia in the rough North Atlantic. It's a sensitive ecosystem, so the potential for impacts occurring there are magnified over the same activities occurring elsewhere. In addition to that, national parks are supposed to be areas that are set aside from industrial influences. As an organization, CPAWS is fundamentally opposed to any industrial oil and gas activity occurring inside national parks. National, provincial and territorial parks and reservesOil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (2010)[Translation]Thank you.Ms. Woodley, you also talked about section 15 of the bill, which concerns Jasper National Park of Canada and the Marmot Basin Ski Area. According to the bill, hectares will be exchanged, and some sections will be given back to the park for conservation while another will be given for the ski area. You said that despite that, the ecological integrity gain for Jasper National Park of Canada hadn't been demonstrated. Could you further describe the risks of passing section 15? Economic developmentNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsChrisMillerAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlison-WoodleyInterventionMs. Alison Woodley: (2010)[English]Thank you for that question. I'm suggesting the environmental gain is not determined by the lines on the map, but by the development and the activities that will flow from that change in the leasehold areas. This act changes the lines on the map. The next decisions that will happen will determine exactly what happens in that leasehold area. Although those decisions aren't made, there is already a package of potential developments that will be going forward as a result of these changes. That will determine how those proposals are considered, and the decisions made there will determine if there's a substantial environmental gain. Looking at the initial proposals on this, our sense is that this is unlikely, largely because some of developments could result in more activity, more development, including in caribou habitat. Studies are ongoing on that, so we're awaiting the results of those studies to be able to be more conclusive, but we are concerned about that, and we'll be tracking, monitoring and participating in those processes. It's important for the committee members to understand that a net gain has not been achieved at this stage. The next decisions will determine whether or not there is a substantial gain. Our sense at this point, from looking at what's coming, is that may well not be the case.Economic developmentNational, provincial and territorial parks and reservesS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (2015)[Translation]Given those fears or the fact that there isn't enough information to determine whether or not there is a gain, would you nevertheless go forward with this bill? Do you think including the park in the bill is going too far? Or does that issue not concern you to that degree?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlison-WoodleyInterventionMs. Alison Woodley: (2015)[English]We have not recommended any amendments at this point but we are flagging that the decisions to come will be critical ones. We'll be participating in that and looking to the Government of Canada and Parks Canada to make the decisions that are consistent with maintaining and restoring ecological integrity in Jasper.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—Salaberry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71350Anne Minh-ThuQuachAnneMinh-Thu-QuachBeauharnois—SalaberryNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/QuachAnneMinhThu_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Anne Minh-Thu Quach: (2015)[Translation]Thank you.I have a last question, and it is for Minister Preyra.You said that the status quo wasn't a sustainable option currently, on Sable Island. Could you explain why?Canada Shipping ActS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsTourismAlisonWoodleyLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (2015)[Translation]Thank you.Since I don't have the confidence, the vocabulary or the grammar necessary to speak very accurately in French, I will answer in English. I apologize. [English]The problem is that the Canada Shipping Act is a bit of an anachronism. Having the coast guard manage Sable Island is a bit of an anachronism. As the coast guard retreats and as lighthouses become less important with global navigation, there's a vacuum there at the moment. Something has to be done to fill that vacuum. After consultations, we came to the conclusion that Parks Canada and the regime around that and the conversation with the Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board was the best protection.I don't know if some of you saw the Chronicle Herald this morning, but the tour company, Adventure Canada, wants to have a ship offshore of Sable. A couple of hundred people will be there. They want to do tours off the island. Sable Island is becoming more and more accessible, and our question is.... The danger to Sable is posed by people who want to come to the island, and we don't have a regime for managing it at the moment. We need to set up a system for visitation. We need to set up a system where people on the island are carefully regulated. If I could go back to a question from Ms. Duncan, Parks Canada will have the final say on ecological integrity on all other issues, but there will be a conversation as it relates to oil and gas. On everything else, Parks Canada will regulate visitation and activities. There will be a conversation with Canada-Nova Scotia, the government process there. Ecological integrity is threatened more by people. Adventure Canada is quite a reputable company, so I don't want to.... But people have said that they want to have destination weddings, extreme sports, all kinds of things, and we don't have a management plan in place, which is something we desperately need. That's what this legislation does.Canada Shipping ActS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsTourismAnne Minh-ThuQuachBeauharnois—SalaberryHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2015)[English]Thank you.LeonardPreyraHon.StuartPinksStuartPinksStuart-PinksInterventionMr. Stuart Pinks: (2015)[English]Could I very quickly add to that? Any operator who wanted to go onshore would have to abide by the parks management manual as well.Canada Shipping ActS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsTourismHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2015)[English]Thank you. We're way over time on that one, Madam Quach. I think it was a great question, so I wanted to get that one in. Sorry to show my bias.Mr. Lunney for five minutes.StuartPinksJamesLunneyNanaimo—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1814JamesLunneyJames-LunneyNanaimo—AlberniIndependentBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LunneyJamesD_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Lunney (Nanaimo—Alberni, CPC): (2015)[English]Thank you very much. I want to pick up on that theme. I thank you for the passionate description of the enthusiasm for Sable Island.I want to come back to that, but first I want to ask a question, again, about the ecological integrity of this unique piece of geography. It is unique. It's sand. Here it is, what did you say, 200 kilometres offshore. It's 42 kilometres by 1.5 kilometres at its widest. It's a nice arc out there. It's between the Labrador current and the Gulf current coming up the other way. It is unique, and it moves, so that also is a challenge. It's been moving over time. It's being moved by the currents. I'm going to direct my first question to Mr. Miller. It has to do with ecological integrity and some of the inhabitants of the island, and that's the horses. There are some 400 horses, I understand. They're very unique critters. They've survived there since the mid-1700s. They were introduced around 1760. I think it's the position of CPAWS, and Mr. Miller, I'm going to ask you to address this, that part of the reason for establishing a park is to help preserve the horses. But there are others who argue that the horses actually are a threat to the ecological integrity of this island. I just want you to clarify if you disagree or agree with the view that the horses actually represent a threat to the ecological integrity of the island.Nature conservationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaChrisMillerChrisMillerChris-MillerInterventionDr. Chris Miller: (2020)[English]The horses have been on Sable Island for hundreds of years. It's not possible to separate the horses from Sable Island. The two go hand in hand. We don't view that as a threat to the ecological integrity. We view the horses as part of the Sable Island ecosystem.Nature conservationS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsJamesLunneyNanaimo—AlberniJamesLunneyNanaimo—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1814JamesLunneyJames-LunneyNanaimo—AlberniIndependentBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LunneyJamesD_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Lunney: (2020)[English]Thanks. I appreciate that perspective.Now I want to come right back to where Madam Quach was headed, because I did hear some different perspectives there. Minister Preyra, with your very enthusiastic representation on behalf of your own constituents, and Ms. Leslie among them, about the enthusiasm for the park, I think I heard you say that the creation of a park will lead to its protection and enjoyment for everyone in the area. Ms. Woodley, I heard you say in your remarks that your vision for the future of the park would be that it be left alone as much as possible in a wild and natural state. I think I heard Mark Butler refer to that as well. You expressed a concern that Canadians might love it to death. It brings us back to this question about what a visitor experience to the island might look like. I think, Minister Preyra, you headed that way when you talked about the adventure tours parked offshore. What is your vision for what a park would look like there? How would you manage visitor experiences? I'd throw it out to the people I mentioned to maybe expand on your vision of what a tourist experience and a visitor experience to the island should look like.Parks Canada AgencyS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsTourismChrisMillerHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2020)[English]Ms. Woodley, do you want to start off?JamesLunneyNanaimo—AlberniAlisonWoodleyAlisonWoodleyAlison-WoodleyInterventionMs. Alison Woodley: (2020)[English]Once again, I'm going to ask Dr. Miller to respond. He's the one who's been doing the thinking on this on behalf of CPAWS. He has been doing a lot of thinking on this, so I'll ask Dr. Miller to respond.HaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaChrisMillerChrisMillerChris-MillerInterventionDr. Chris Miller: (2020)[English]CPAWS' approach on the issue of visitation, and what we have been encouraging Parks Canada to do, is to bring the Sable Island experience to people, and not people to Sable Island. It's a remote piece of geography and it's very difficult to get to. It's very sensitive.The overwhelming feeling, at least in Nova Scotia for the most part, is to leave it alone. In fact, when a national park was first proposed, the big concern in Nova Scotia was whether that was good enough and whether this would increase visitation.What we're proposing that Parks Canada focus on is to develop off-island visitor experiences. This may be a state-of-the-art facility in downtown Halifax, or somewhere else in Nova Scotia, where people can go to learn about Sable Island and understand its rich cultural history and its natural history. This is essentially to take off the pressure of people wanting to go to the island. In addition to that, in concert with bringing this experience to the people on the mainland and perhaps through websites and virtual experiences as well, we would cap the number of visits to the island near current levels. Certainly, we would look to Parks Canada to assess this as part of their management plan, that is, what is a scientifically defensible carrying capacity for visitation to the island.Parks Canada AgencyS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsTourismAlisonWoodleyJamesLunneyNanaimo—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1814JamesLunneyJames-LunneyNanaimo—AlberniIndependentBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/41/LunneyJamesD_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Lunney: (2020)[English]Thank you, Mr. Miller.Minister Preyra, I think you had something to say.ChrisMillerLeonardPreyraHon.LeonardPreyraHon.Leonard-PreyraInterventionHon. Leonard Preyra: (2020)[English]Yes, just that I agree completely with Mr. Miller. There's one thing that came through in the consultations. People would love to visit Sable Island, but they also said that they understand why they shouldn't, so they would like to have a virtual visit. We have received a number of proposals to do exactly that, to create opportunities for virtual visits. I know Parks Canada is working on that as well.I should also note that the Ecology Action Centre and Zoe Lucas and a number of groups also want that human presence, and that will involve scientific research, monitoring, and atmospheric testing. Parks Canada and the two governments will also have to establish protocols around that. The visitation, as I understand it, as I heard in the consultation, and as Parks Canada has heard, will be no different from the most rigorous national parks that we have, the northern parks, Torngat Mountains, Nahanni, and all those. There will be very strict limits on who can visit and what they can do under those conditions. We do want to make sure that we use this as a teaching and learning opportunity, as a base for future research. But Nova Scotians and Canadians really want to be connected. It's an iconic place that exists in the imagination and they shouldn't be separated from it.Parks Canada AgencyS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsTourismJamesLunneyNanaimo—AlberniHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—Conestoga//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35607HaroldAlbrechtHarold-AlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AlbrechtHarold_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2025)[English]Thank you very much.I have one concern, Minister Preyra and Ms. Leslie. Will you have an opportunity to visit the island for canvassing purposes during election cycles?A voice: You could ask the one constituent who is on the line.The Chair: We'll move now to Mr. Choquette.LeonardPreyraHon.FrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (2025)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for the information they are providing us with today.Contrary to Ms. Leslie, I am far from being an expert on Sable Island. My questions may therefore be a bit simplistic, at first glance. What's more, if this bill came from the House of Commons, we would have had more time to study it. Unfortunately, it comes from the Senate, which is not elected and not accountable. It is really unfortunate.My question is for Mr. Barry.If you don't want to conduct oil and gas exploration and development on the island, why would there be a seismic and geological program? Why do you need to do seismic and geological testing?ExxonMobil Canada Ltd.Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsHaroldAlbrechtKitchener—ConestogaAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (2025)[English]If you look at what our current outlook is, we have no plans for any seismic or drilling activities that are underneath or around Sable Island. The key is that we don't know what might happen in the future. There is a resource under the island. At the moment developing that resource is not economical, but—who knows—over time with the way technologies advance, that resource may be accessed and developed. We don't know whether additional seismic may be required to access that resource.Today we have no plans, but if you limit it today and limit it forever, then you essentially are shutting out the development of that resource.ExxonMobil Canada Ltd.Oil and gasS-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Sable Island National Park Reserve of CanadaSenate billsFrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (2025)[Translation]Unless I am mistaken, the gas under the island is non- conventional, and you would probably have to use fracking. S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrewBarryAndrew-BarryInterventionMr. Andrew Barry: (2025)[English]Underneath the island is a gas resource. Whether the quality of that resource requires fracking technology has not been contemplated in the plans. I'd say it's too early to talk about or to understand what development techniques would be required for that resource.S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsFrançoisChoquetteDrummondFrançoisChoquetteDrummond//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35351FrançoisChoquetteFrançois-ChoquetteDrummondNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ChoquetteFrançois_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. François Choquette: (2025)[Translation]Thank you very much.Mr. Miller, I have a few questions for you on the same subject.In your opinion, what would be an appropriate distance for an exclusion zone? Currently, it is one nautical mile, if I am not mistaken. What do you suggest?S-15, An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, 2001Senate billsAndrewBarryChrisMillerINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE