Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:30

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I am not going to offer new projections, but let me remind the member that in the fiscal snapshot, the deficit—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:30
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:30

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, it was $343.2 billion as of the fiscal snapshot. There are no new numbers tonight.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:30

Lib. (ON)
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Yes, Mr. Chair, and I want to be clear with members. I am going to refer to numbers from the snapshot, not new numbers tonight. I will tell the member more with the next question.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:30

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I sure do. It was projected in the fiscal snapshot to be $1.060 trillion.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:31

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as I said in my speech last week, we are extending the maturities of our debt to lock in current interest rates, which are at a 100-year low, our debt service charges.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:31

Lib. (ON)
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As I said, Mr. Chair, I am going to be offering detailed projections and numbers in my economic update later on this fall, not tonight, but I will cite the—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:31
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:31

Lib. (ON)
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As I said, Mr. Chair, the finance minister's numbers on these issues are very sensitive and I am not going to—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:32
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:32

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, we have a program, as I said last week, moving into longer-term debt instruments. This is to lock in current rates. That is exactly what we are doing right now.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:32

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, our government and the Bank of Canada's debt-management program is second to none in the world. We are making a careful and thoughtful effort to lock in longer-term maturities and move to longer-term instruments. That is what we are doing. Instruments are maturing all the time and are being moved into longer-maturity, lower-interest-rate debt.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:33

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I need to challenge the first comment the member opposite made. Canada's debt is not the most expensive.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:34

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, the member's assertion was that Canada's debt is the most expensive and that—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:34
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:34

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, Canada is one of two G7 countries with a AAA credit rating. We borrow—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:34
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:34

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, the member opposite is building an assumption into his questions that I strongly disagree with.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:34

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, actually one can absolutely disagree with implicit assertions.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 19:35

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I apologize to the House, but all I can say is that it will be this fall.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 19:35

Lib. (ON)
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That is an excellent question, Mr. Chair.
The date was chosen so that the Canada emergency wage subsidy would coincide with the Canada emergency rent subsidy.
The three criteria that the hon. member listed are all important. I think the most important thing for us will be our country's economic situation, which is obviously very closely tied to the health situation.
For this reason, we have announced parameters until December 19. It is a matter of giving companies some certainty because it is important, but also to give us the necessary flexibility, because it is very difficult to know in advance what the economic and health situation will be at the end of the year.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 19:37

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, that is a very important question about the details of the Canada emergency rent subsidy. I can assure the member that we intend to help businesses and find a solution for each of them. We are not looking for reasons not to pay the subsidy. Obviously, Canada is a big country with a big economy—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:38
Gabriel Ste-Marie - 19:38

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I simply want to add that this is a big program. This is the first time that Canada is going to pay a rent subsidy directly to businesses. We added an element that, in my opinion, is very important and that is targeted assistance for businesses that are subject to a public health lockdown order. We need to work on that and see if there are any gaps. However, the intention is to help our businesses.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 19:39

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I thank the member for his question.
We did discuss this issue. The reason is that we always have to ask ourselves the following: What is the purpose of our measures? In my view, the purpose is to create a bridge for the businesses that are viable today and encourage them to continue working. Through our programs, we must think about the future, not the past. Through the new programs, we need to try to help the businesses that will be working in the future. That is the reason.
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Peter Julian - 19:40

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I think that is an entirely reasonable question, and one that I have wrestled with. At the end of the day, my answer is the one I offered to my colleague from the Bloc. I think that our programs need to be focused on the future. We need to focus on supporting businesses in their activities going forward. What we want to do is to create a bridge from today to tomorrow and not focus on the past, but I do thank the member for the question and for his obvious concern for the businesses in his riding and across the country.
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Peter Julian - 19:42

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, let me start with the second half of that question, which is a really important one.
In choosing December 19 as the date to which we are setting the levels for the wage and rent subsidies, we have tried to strike a balance. We are striking a balance with, on the one hand, the fact that business owners are telling us, as I am sure they are telling everyone in the House, that they want certainty and stability and they want to be able to plan. However, on the other side of the balance is the reality that the situation with coronavirus, the situation with the global economy and, frankly, the situation with the North American economy is very unpredictable and very volatile. Therefore, we are trying to offer certainty while at the same time having flexibility for the future.
I would point out, as the member is very well aware, we have assured business owners that these two programs will be in place until June—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:44
Peter Julian - 19:44

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I am sorry. It is because of the sound. What was the first part of the question? I know it was how many companies in tax havens and stuff, but companies doing what?
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Peter Julian - 19:44

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, is the member asking about the BCAP, the LEEFF or the wage subsidy program?
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Bruce Stanton - 19:44

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I would like to really apologize to the NDP finance critic. I just did not hear, maybe because of the transmission, exactly the first part of the question. It is business owners turned down for which program?
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Peter Julian - 19:45

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as the hon. member for the NDP knows, so far for the LEEFF program we only have two businesses we have qualified. Other businesses are currently being reviewed and the LEEFF program absolutely has very tough criteria around environmental performance, around executive compensation, around being sure that these are companies that are paying their taxes in Canada and around foreign ownership assets, so we are being very, very careful in that program. The LEEFF program is one which is very bespoke and there is a tiger team that goes through the financials of each company very carefully.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:46

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I think in my answer around the retroactivity of the rent subsidy, I have been pointing to some limits that our government is imposing. We are thoughtful about targeting our support where—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:47
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:47

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, as I said in my speech last week—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:47
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:47

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, I said last week that we are mindful that limits exist.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:47
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:47

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, unlike the member opposite, I am the finance minister and I need to be very careful with my words.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:47

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I am absolutely as careful and that is why I carefully said last week—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:47
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:47

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, the member opposite should be careful with words. I did not claim in my speech last week anything of the sort that he is suggesting. What I said was that there are—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:48
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:48

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I use my words very carefully and I said that I would have more to say about the restraints we would impose on ourselves in the fiscal update we will offer later this year.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:48

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I chose my words very carefully in my speech. I would be happy to read it to the members gathered here tonight. I was very careful in saying, yes there are limits, and that I would have more to say about them later this year, not tonight.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:49

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, that is a very fair quote and I meant what I said. I also said I would have more to say later this year in my fall fiscal update. It is not coming tonight.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:49

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I think our time is actually limited tonight. As I said, I would be happy to read my speech again. I wrote it myself; I am proud of it.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:49

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, actually, in my speech I was quite clear that I would have more to say about the limits we would impose upon ourselves in the fall economic update, and I am going to stick to those words and that commitment.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:50

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, as the member opposite knows, our government is operating very much within the—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:50
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:50

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, as I said, Canada has the fiscal firepower to do what it needs to do. We have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:50
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:50

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I think the member opposite should be very careful not to ask the finance minister questions better addressed to the Bank of Canada. I am aware of the—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:51
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:51

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, as I said, I am the finance minister.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:51

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, I want to be very serious for a moment. The independence of the Bank of Canada is one of the central pillars of the Canadian economy, and I am not going to be frivolous about that or make frivolous comments.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:51

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I think it is really important to be clear that one of the central principles of how the Canadian economy works is that we have an independent Bank of Canada, something, by the way, that the member opposite has raised questionable questions about. I will not play—
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:52

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, I really want to make clear tonight that an independent Bank of Canada is key to how the Canadian economy works. I think this is something that all members of the House—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:52
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:52

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, it represents a profound misunderstanding of how the Canadian economy or any other economy works to suggest that there is some kind of questionable relationship between our government and the Bank of Canada.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:53

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I am not hiding anything. What I am doing is two things. One, I am being very clear. This is important for markets, it is important for Canadians and it is important for our Bank of Canada. I will stand here all night long defending the independence, the propriety and the fine judgment of the people in the Bank of—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:54
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:54

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, it is profoundly irresponsible of the member opposite to suggest that a finance minister defending the independence of the Bank of Canada is “covering up” something. That is not how we do things in Canada.
I am happy for members here to ask questions about our programs. I am happy for members here to ask questions about our—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:54
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:54

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, let me say a couple of numerical and mathematical things for the member opposite.
The first is that the debt service charges, as a share of GDP, that Canada is paying today are the lowest in 100 years. Notwithstanding the very considerable support we have given the economy so far, the debt service charges are the lowest in 100 years. That is a very—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:55
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:56

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, let me share another very important number with the member opposite. Seventy-six per cent of COVID-19 job losses recovered in Canada—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:56
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:56

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, I am not afraid of much, and I would like the member opposite to come clean with Canadians. The Conservatives need to decide if they are the party of austerity or they believe in supporting Canadians through this crisis.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:56

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, let me share one motto I had during the NAFTA negotiations. It is a motto that has served us very well. I believe that engaging in hypothetical speculation is never appropriate for a minister of the Crown.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:57

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, as I said in my speech last week, and as I have said a number of times this evening, we will be sharing detailed fiscal projections in the fall economic statement. That is not for tonight.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:58

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, it is highly inappropriate to put words in the mouth of any minister, especially the finance minister, suggesting that there is any form of coercion over our independent central bank.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:58

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as I said, it is highly inappropriate that the member said, not insinuated, that our government would in some way coerce the—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:58
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:59

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, I am delighted to talk about jobs. Canada has recovered 76% of our job losses, and the U.S. is at only 52%.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:59

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, the more important, relevant figure is labour force participation. Ours is higher than that of the U.S., Japan, South Korea and Germany. The Economist has a piece this week about Canada's—
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Bruce Stanton - 19:59
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 19:59

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, again, I am sorry to have to teach economics to the member opposite, but the really relevant figure is the debt-to-GDP ratio and Canada today has the lowest debt to GDP ratio in the G7.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 20:00

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, let me ask a respectful question in turn of the member opposite. Is there one country in the G20 that has done a better job than Canada in protecting its workers and its businesses?
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 20:01

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, it is important for the answers to be accurate. Let me just point out that Germany today has 238 new cases of COVID per million. Canada has 73 new cases of COVID per million. It is too high in Canada, but I want to be clear with Canadians. Right now, in the G7, we are doing a pretty good job. When it comes to employment we have a higher labour force participation rate than Germany and Japan. Germany is 55.9% and Japan is 62.2%. We are at 65%.
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Michael Barrett - 20:02

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, let me be really clear. There has been no cover-up by our government. In fact, the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's chief of staff testified at length before committee and took questions, as did the Clerk of the Privy Council. This matter has been thoroughly aired before Canadians. The questions have been asked and answered. What I would say for the member opposite and all members in the House is that Canadians really want us to focus on them and to get through COVID together.
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Michael Barrett - 20:03

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, our government's intention and commitment is to focus on supporting Canadians. That is why we are here tonight. I am very glad, by the way, that we are—
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Bruce Stanton - 20:03
Michael Barrett - 20:03

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I agree with the member opposite that the CRA is highly competent and, in fact, I would like to take the opportunity now to say how grateful I am to all the hard-working people there.
That is why the new rent support program, like the wage subsidy, will be administered through the CRA. We know it can do it. We have a platform now with which businesses are familiar. That is why we are choosing that path going forward.
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Michael Barrett - 20:04

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as the member opposite knows very well, and as members in the House do, because I think we will be supporting these programs together, we have changed, significantly, the architecture of the rent support program. Now it goes directly to the tenants. Provinces and landlords are not involved.
Our new program is an improvement. Better is always possible. Members—
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Bruce Stanton - 20:05
Michael Barrett - 20:05

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as the member opposite knows, I was not finance minister at that time. I can say that I never spoke to Mr. Silver about this program.
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Michael Barrett - 20:06
Cathy McLeod - 20:07

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, what we are here to talk about tonight are the new programs that our government is putting in place.
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Cathy McLeod - 20:07

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, in the spring when COVID struck our country, there was no playbook.
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Cathy McLeod - 20:08

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I am glad we are debating this important bill now and I am glad we have been able to include some really innovative measures, particularly the lockdown support. This is a new program. I have not seen one like it anywhere in the world. It will provide targeted support to businesses subject to local lockdowns. It is going to get us through the winter.
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Cathy McLeod - 20:09

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, the member opposite said that we, the government, believe this has to be passed by Friday. I would like to respectfully say I do not think that is some kind of peculiar conviction of ours. All Canadian businesses, all Canadian provinces and territories need this legislation.
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Cathy McLeod - 20:10

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, businesses do need this support and that is why we are debating this legislation late into tonight. I would like to remind members, as I know they well know, that the support will be retroactive to September 27, so people will be covered for October. This is support our businesses need and support I hope together we can get for them.
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Cathy McLeod - 20:10

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I am a little puzzled by the contradictions embedded in that question. On the one hand, the member opposite is quite rightly pointing out that businesses need support now. I could not agree more. On the other hand, the member opposite is asking why we want to pass this legislation with alacrity. The first half of the question answers the second half.
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Cathy McLeod - 20:11

Lib. (ON)
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As I said, Mr. Chair, we need to decide what matters most. I am firmly convinced, and I actually believe that in their hearts of hearts everyone in this House shares the conviction, that at the end of the day what matters the most is getting support to our business owners now, and getting support to them with alacrity. That is what we are committed to doing. These programs are good programs that would provide essential support as we fight the second wave of COVID. I hope the members opposite will join us in supporting them.
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Monique Pauzé - 20:13

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her question.
The Canada emergency wage subsidy is designed to help employers protect the jobs that Canadians depend on and to rehire employees who have already been laid off. The support applies to employers of all sizes in all sectors, including not-for-profit organizations that have been hard hit by COVID-19.
To date, more than 3.8 million employees across the country are being supported by the wage subsidy. It is a good program.
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Monique Pauzé - 20:14

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I would once again like to note the importance of the wage subsidy program for the 3.8 million Canadians.
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Monique Pauzé - 20:14

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I obviously agree that we must now provide assistance directly to the businesses to help with fixed costs and rent. That is why are introducing a bill that does exactly that. I am pleased that the hon. member agrees that this is a good step to take. I hope we can do this quickly.
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Monique Pauzé - 20:15

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, that is another good and important question.
I will start with the rent subsidy because I want to point out a new component that is really important for Quebec, and that is targeted support for businesses subject to new lockdowns. I am very supportive of the measures that the Province of Quebec has taken to combat the coronavirus, and this additional assistance will help the province make the right decisions. This is an innovative component that I am very pleased with.
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Monique Pauzé - 20:17

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as the member said, I already answered this question, but I will repeat what I said.
The assistance will be retroactive to September 27. This is important because it means that this program will cover October. That is a good question about making this measure even more retroactive, and it is something we will have to consider. However, I believe that we must focus on the future. We must help businesses that are operating now, and we need to help them keep their doors open in the future. I prefer to focus on that.
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Kevin Lamoureux - 20:18
Gord Johns - 20:24

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, let me start by pointing out that the rent subsidy that we are debating tonight does go back to September 27.
With regard to going back further, let me just say this. The objective of our program is to support the vulnerable but viable businesses across our country and to help create a bridge for them to get through—
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Bruce Stanton - 20:24
Gord Johns - 20:25

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, let me point out the help that will be available if we can pass this legislation.
Starting from September 27, up to 65% of wages would be paid, up to 65% of the rent would be paid, and if one is subject to a local lockdown restriction, 90% of the rent would be paid. That is real support and our—
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Bruce Stanton - 20:25
Gord Johns - 20:25

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, we have been clear that the program goes from September 27 forward.
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Gord Johns - 20:25

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, I think it is entirely appropriate for us to listen to the businesses in our ridings. I also think it is appropriate for the government to focus on businesses in the future, viability in the future.
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Gord Johns - 20:26

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, my focus as finance minister is putting this new rent support program in place, where the support will go directly to tenants.
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Gord Johns - 20:26

Lib. (ON)
...More
Mr. Chair, the key issue here is a question of focus. My focus is on tomorrow, not on yesterday. My focus is on helping businesses get through the second wave.
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Gord Johns - 20:27

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, businesses have had help since the beginning of the pandemic. They have had loans, including a significant forgivable portion through CEBA. They have had access to the wage subsidy. Going forward, they will have an additional expansion of CEBA.
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Gord Johns - 20:27