//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.)): (1540)[English] I call this meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 43 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 2, 2021, the committee will resume its study of the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion. Each will have five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions.We have with us today Mary Oko, the chair of the Family Council of Copernicus Lodge, and from the Canadian Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse we have Kathy Majowski, board chair and registered nurse. For the benefit of our witnesses, I'd like to make a couple of additional comments.Interpretation is available in this video conference. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “floor”, “English” or “French”. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.You may notice that in each round of questions, when the MPs start to get close to the end of their turn, I'll hold up one finger to indicate one minute left. Don't panic. You'll have a chance to finish your thought. A minute is actually quite a long time.With that, we're going to start with Ms. Oko for five minutes.Welcome to the committee. You have the floor.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko (Chair, Family Council of Copernicus Lodge, As an Individual): (1540)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Distinguished members of HUMA, thank you for allowing me to participate in the valuable work that this committee has been tasked to undertake.As you know, I'm Mary Oko. I'm appearing before you today as a family member whose mom is currently at Copernicus Lodge, a long-term care home located in Toronto, Ontario. I'm also the chair of the Family Council, representing the families who have loved ones living in the home. My mom, Wanda Oko, is 95 years old, and has advanced dementia. I come before you to share how my mom and I were impacted by COVID and how I think we can make things better for our seniors moving forward.I'll start by giving you some background.During wave 1, my mom's home was fortunate not to have any COVID outbreaks. During wave 2, my mom's home was hit pretty hard. Twenty-two residents died of COVID, and 100 of 200 residents and 85 of 300 staff were infected. Many residents are still suffering. Their health has declined; many who were once walking and independent now need walkers or wheelchairs or are bedridden. My mom is one such casualty. Before the lockdowns, she was walking; now she is bedridden, and during the lockdown she developed a stage 4 bedsore on her tailbone the size of a golf ball that will likely never heal. She didn't get COVID; however, she suffered due to the lockdown and other restrictions implemented under the guise of keeping residents safe. Today I will share three concerns that have deeply affected me and my mom. The first one is insufficient staff support for my mom. My mom has lived in long-term care for nine years. Because of poor supports provided, I felt compelled to hire, at my own expense, a care assistant who helped her with mental stimulation, exercise, feeding, and some outdoor excursions. In addition, I visited her twice per week to help with these and other activities, such as dressing and hygiene. Without this added support, my mom would not have continued walking or maintained mental engagement.When COVID hit, my mom's care assistant and I were locked out of the home. When I was allowed back into the home in September 2020, my mom had declined because our extra care had not been available. She had stopped talking and she was less engaged. During the wave 2 lockdown, she received no access to exercise and was not able to leave her room. My mom is now bedridden and needs the assistance of a lift to move her from bed to wheelchair. Assistance with feeding has always been an area where staff shortages are most obvious. Prior to COVID, my care assistant and I helped with my mom's feeding. During the wave 2 lockout, staff shortages and a lack of family support resulted in my mom eating poorly and a decline in her overall well-being.As my second point, my role as a caregiver for my mom was not considered. Given there is a lack of staff to provide the level of care tailored for each resident, the staff always welcomed my help when I came to see my mom. They also valued that I could quickly identify issues that needed the attention of staff, or in some cases needed to be escalated to the doctor. When COVID hit, I, like many families across Canada, was shut out. I was reduced to video meetings. At these meetings, my mom didn't acknowledge my presence, as she is better when I'm holding her hand and talking to her.During wave 2, when families were once again locked out in the midst of our outbreak, as I mentioned earlier, my mom developed a serious bedsore. In pre-COVID lockdowns and restrictions, I could have had access to my mom and worked with the staff in addressing any issues she had. Families were not allowed to help when the home badly needed our support.Lastly, my mom and I, as her power of attorney, were not properly consulted in decisions that impact my mom. We consider Copernicus my mom's home and not just an institution. Since my mom has advanced dementia, I have always been involved in the discussions and decisions relating to the level of care provided to her. COVID changed this situation. Especially, during wave 2 my mom and I as her power of attorney were not included in some of the decisions that were being made that impacted her level of care.As an example, on December 14, two residents tested positive for COVID on my mom's floor, and then nine, again mostly on my mom's floor. This led to a decision to confine over 200 residents to their rooms 24-7, many in areas where no active cases existed. This decision was made based on meetings held between Toronto Public Health, the Ministry of Long-Term Care, Unity Health—which is the hospital that's partnered with our home—and the Copernicus management team. Residents and families of residents being impacted by such decisions were not given a voice at these meetings.Any other patient in our health care system is given the benefit of consultation in decisions that impact their health. During COVID, as it relates to COVID, no such consideration is given to seniors living in long-term care or to their power of attorney. Why is this considered acceptable?How do we fix this? Here are my four suggestions.First is national standards for long-term care. Comparing what was happening in my mom's home with other long-term care homes in Toronto or in other provinces, I note there is a lack of consistency in how our seniors are cared for in many areas, including staffing levels, COVID testing, and IPAC controls.(1545) No senior should ever feel that they are discriminated against based on the city or town they live in, the province or territory or the type of home they choose to live in. We are all Canadians, and our seniors should be treated fairly and equitably from coast to coast to coast.Second, never lock out families. Families serve an integral role in the level of care provided to our seniors. We know our loved ones, and we can and do work with the homes to provide the quality of care our loved ones need. Until adequate staffing levels are addressed and funded, it is essential that families not be denied the right to improve the quality of care and indeed the quality of palliative care for our loved ones who live in long-term care. My mom and our seniors will always need their family for love and support. Third, raise the profile of family council. During COVID, the Family Council at Copernicus Lodge was a strong voice speaking for their residents. The Family Council pushed for the resumption of regular bathing and showering, demanded increases in mental stimulation and activities and so much more, but family council members are unpaid volunteers, and it is a real challenge to attract and retain members, especially when we are not listened to by well-paid management and health care agencies. Lastly, a resident voice at the table is needed. In any discussions that impact the health and well-being of the residents, their voice and/or the voice of the power of attorney who represents the resident needs to be included. I beg you to never silence my mom's voice.Thank you.Care for the elderlyCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Oko.We're going to go to Ms. Majowski next. Welcome to the committee. You have the floor for five minutes.MaryOkoKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski (Board Chair and Registered Nurse, Canadian Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse): (1545)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to Ms. Oko for sharing her experiences. Good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to acknowledge that I'm speaking to you from Treaty No. 1 territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinabe, Inninewak, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene peoples, and from the heart of the Métis nation.The Canadian Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse is a national non-profit organization made up of individuals and organizations that care about older adults and the prevention of harm in later life. Elder abuse has long been nicknamed “the silent pandemic”. It was rampant in our communities long before COVID. Like gender-based violence, it has flared under COVID and emerged as a shadow pandemic in 2020.We all experienced the stress and impact of the pandemic. What helped many of us rise to the challenge every day was a supportive family or social group. For many older Canadians, these crucial bonds were obliterated by the pandemic. The necessity to stay home and socially distance whittled away opportunities for social interactions and access to core services.During the first few months of the pandemic, we ran a survey to evaluate the immediate impact of COVID-19 on our members. We asked elder abuse prevention folks and senior service providers what they were experiencing and observing. When asked about the impact on the seniors they served, respondents listed “increase in elder abuse and domestic violence” as the number one issue, followed closely by “decreased access to services and supports” and “increase in social isolation”.Social isolation is a serious public health risk, with life-threatening consequences. It can be as damaging to health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. It incurs negative health behaviours and decreased mental health, and it's also a risk factor for elder abuse, neglect and self-neglect. An isolated older adult may lack access to necessities, be more vulnerable to scammers and be trapped at home with their abuser, with no access to supports. Almost 65% of our survey respondents reported the impact of COVID-19 on their programs and operations as “high”, with 83% reporting a disruption of services to clients and 46% reporting an increased demand for services. This was the perfect storm: increasingly isolated older adults in greater need of support services that were highly disrupted by the pandemic. Social distancing became a double-edged sword. We all know what followed. Older adults living at home reported higher rates of isolation and mental health struggles. The Seniors Safety Line in Ontario reported a 250% increase in calls about elder abuse, and meanwhile, in some long-term care homes, residents endured appalling abuse and neglect.The past year was a stress test that exposed the weaknesses in our system. Older Canadians have borne the brunt of this pandemic through deaths, isolation and decreased safety and quality of life, and they're not willing to be sacrificed and ignored anymore.Around 90% of older Canadians live at home, and most of us hope to age in place. For this to happen safely, we need to be addressing abuse and neglect in our communities. Our recommendations include improved training and education programs across sectors by providing adequate care for older adults in their homes and communities. We need to be focused not only on making sure that there are enough human resources to complete the assigned tasks; but older adults should also have a network of supports and community services that work well together and are trained and educated in recognizing and preventing ageism and elder abuse and are familiar with the local, regional and national resources available. The training needs to be trauma- and violence-informed, with an equity orientation to act as a bridge across sectors and mandates for a more inclusive and collaborative approach to prevention and response. We also recommend encouraging the development of age-friendly communities and ensuring that this effort has an elder abuse prevention lens.We know that personal support workers, also known as health care aides, have the most consistent and frequent contact with older adults receiving support in their homes and have inconsistent levels of education, training and oversight. Regulation of this role would increase protection for the public by stipulating professional responsibilities and would implement at least minimum standards for entry to the practice, as well as put processes in place for responding to complaints. Regulation would also increase safety by verifying qualifications and competencies for safe practice via a public registry and by providing information on complaints, similar to other regulatory bodies. A key element would be minimum educational requirements and standardization of educational programs, including for trauma-informed care; dementia care; and elder abuse awareness, prevention and response, including information about the reporting process if there is suspicion of elder abuse. This would also foster safety and stability for these professionals, who are often women from racialized communities who are themselves more vulnerable. (1550) We recommend providing sustained and appropriate funding for the elder abuse and neglect response sector on a par with domestic violence funding. In particular, we recommend providing dedicated support and funding to the CNPEA to ensure that there is a national organization dedicated to elder abuse prevention and awareness that will foster the exchange of reliable information among stakeholders and service providers across Canada.Finally, we would recommend establishing a federal office of seniors advocate. It should provide systemic oversight and leadership on issues related to the current needs of Canadian seniors, as well as provide insight, analysis and direction to the government on the future needs of our aging population. Elder abuse and neglect awareness and response should be a key and ongoing mandate of this office.Thank you.Adult education and trainingCanadian Network for the Prevention of Elder AbuseCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Elder abuseHome care servicesPandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you, Ms. Majowski.We're going to start now with rounds of questions, beginning with Mrs. Falk, please, for six minutes.KathyMajowskiRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk (Battlefords—Lloydminster, CPC): (1555)[English]Thank you so much, Chair. I would like to thank both of our witnesses for their contributions to our study today as we look to better support Canada's seniors as we navigate beyond this pandemic.We know that the COVID-19 pandemic has underscored and exacerbated shortcomings in our long-term care homes. Unfortunately, it is our seniors who have paid the highest price for these shortcomings. Regardless of where they live, every senior has the right to age in dignity. Every level of government has a responsibility to take action.Ms. Mary Oko, I want to thank you for your vulnerability and your willingness to advocate on behalf of your mother and, ultimately, all seniors. I don't want to see an “Ottawa knows best” approach when it comes to national standards. Ms. Oko, I'm wondering how important you would think or believe it would be to not only have the provinces and territories at the table when it comes to discussion of national standards, but also to have frontline workers, seniors advocates and caregiving organizations.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsSeanCaseyCharlottetownMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1555)[English]I feel that it has to be a collaborative approach. You need to have many people at the table, and definitely frontline workers. Here in Ontario, we have a very strong registered nurses association that's been a very strong advocate and proponent for the quality of care that residents should be having. Individuals like that and advocacy groups should also be at the table, and also there should definitely be representation from the residents and from the families of those who cannot speak for themselves.I agree that what I'm proposing in terms of national standards does touch upon what Kathy was referring to. My idea is that regardless of the type of home a senior chooses to live in, long-term care is just one option of many. There should be consistency across the country. It's been very frustrating for me and for many families—I have friends in other parts of Canada, and we compare notes—how disparate the quality of care is for our seniors. It was almost as though we were in 13 different countries instead of one country.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1555)[English]I do want to take note of your remarks. You made mention of families and how important it is to not shut them out. From my background and experience of having worked in a medical facility, when it comes to people who are being hospitalized, I know how important it is to not fall into that institutionalization lull. It's something that you referred to when you spoke of your mother not having that constant stimulation every day.I think what's so important is how much our families do in the caregiving role. It's not just that they're actively doing things, but they're also advocating. Family members and close friends—the ones who go and visit loved ones—are the biggest advocates and sometimes the loudest voices. I wanted to note that I think those activities are really important and valid to mention.With regard to staffing, in my role as shadow minister for seniors, I've heard a lot of testimony on staffing shortages. In your experience, how have staffing shortages impacted the quality of care that you've seen, specifically for seniors in long-term care homes?Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensMaryOkoMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1555)[English]The biggest example is the fact that my mom has a stage 4 bedsore. When it happened, it was in the three weeks while the families were being locked out. The home and the various people at the table knew that we had a shortage of nurses, specifically of registered nurses, so it wasn't like 200 people were in their rooms and we miraculously had a huge contingent of extra staff to help provide that level of care for each of these residents. They had to make do with the staffing levels that they had, even with the use of agency staff. The problem with having agency staff is that they don't know the residents very well. Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1555)[English] There's a rapport with that, right, when you have that relationship? You know what they like, what they don't like and how to communicate, and that goes a long way. Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensMaryOkoMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1555)[English] A lot of my advocacy is not to attack the staff. The staff have done the best that they can, but they're in a no-win situation. The funding levels and staffing ratios are completely inadequate to provide the level of care that our seniors need, especially in long-term care, where the average age of seniors is 80. Many of them have dementia, and they need specific types of care. Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1600)[English]This is where I'm also leery. I know the government has talked about bringing in new penalties for caregivers. This is what I'm not okay with, because if we have residents who live in a home and there isn't the capacity—there are staffing shortages—I don't think it's okay to penalize somebody because they physically cannot do the workload. There clearly is a staffing issue. I also wanted to make a note about mental health. Could you share at all, in your experience, how seniors you've witnessed have been impacted? How has their mental health being impacted, living in long-term care throughout this pandemic?Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityMaryOkoMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1600)[English]Again, my mom was engaged and she was talking. She's not talking now. With many of the other residents, it was disheartening to watch those who were mobile and conversable. They are now less so than they were. They now need assistance with feeding. They need to be engaged, or they can't engage and you try to talk to them and they're confused, because they were also getting mixed messages. During the lockdown, in my mom's home many of the residents were kept in their rooms 24-7. Even the ones who tried to get out of their rooms were constantly being told not to and being pushed back into their rooms. Once things started stabilizing and the residents were allowed to go out, they were petrified. They stayed in their rooms, and the staff would turn around and say, “Well, the residents don't want to come out.” They had been trained not to come out. They had so many negative messages that now they stayed in their rooms, but that just increases their isolation and their decline. COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Ms. Oko, and Ms. Falk.Next we have Ms. Young for six minutes. MaryOkoKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young (London West, Lib.): (1600)[English]Thank you very much to both of our witnesses today. That was gripping testimony, especially from Ms. Oko, hearing about her experiences with her mother and what she had gone through. My father died in a long-term care facility eight years ago, before COVID. Knowing the challenges that he faced in a long-term care facility, even that long ago—things have only gotten worse and worse through COVID—I really do feel for you, and can't imagine what it must have been like. You talked about wanting to raise the profile of families and this idea of having a family council for people to listen to the concerns of residents. Do you think that should be regulated as a part of long-term care standards? Is that needed, or is that something that the families of residents themselves have to really push for?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsSeanCaseyCharlottetownMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1600)[English]In response to that question, I feel it needs to be regulated. In Ontario, it is part of the Long-Term Care Homes Act. However, in B.C.—I have friends in B.C.—there is no such act and there is no such thing as a family council. What families have had to do, my friends included, is come together and create their own quasi-family council groups through Facebook. Families were connecting to provide support and share resources. Even in Ontario, where it's regulated, the idea of a family council is not always respected within ever single home. There are some homes that work very well with a family council, and then there are some homes that do not want to work with a family council. They feel that they don't understand it. They feel that it's just extra work. They feel that they're doing what they need to do to take care of the residents. Again, the majority of the residents who are in long-term care have some form of dementia or cognitive disability. Even though many of the homes have a residents council, they cannot effectively communicate on behalf of themselves, because they're in fear that if they speak out too negatively, there will be ramifications imposed against them. I have families within my own family council that are afraid to speak out because they feel that the quality of care their loved one will be getting will decline. COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1605)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Oko.Hopefully, you are very pleased that our government recently launched a consultation to define seniors abuse so that they can understand it properly and come up with better legislation.I will go to Ms. Majowski for a moment.Of course we know that seniors can experience elder abuse in any facility—in long-term care facilities, hospitals, while they're shopping, even in their own home. In your opinion, what steps can be taken to improve the reporting of abuse of seniors?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensMaryOkoKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1605)[English]Thank you very much for the question.Reporting is a very tricky conversation. We do want to keep in mind that, first of all, 91% of our older adults live in the community, so they are being supported in the community. In the abuse that they experience, in many cases we know that the perpetrators are people who are close to them, whether it be a neighbour, a friend, a family member who's providing some sort of caregiving role, or is even [Technical difficulty—Editor] the person, so reporting is a very delicate conversation. I would say it's on par with domestic violence reporting.Sometimes when health workers, social services workers or community services workers take on the responsibility of mandatory reporting, we're actually going against what the older adult would want. There are many reasons that they don't want to report. It may be that they don't want their family member to get in trouble, to experience legal ramifications for the behaviour. Sometimes it's because they do feel some guilt. We look at it as a bit of a harm reduction scenario where putting additional supports into place can take off some of the strain or reduce their need to depend on the abuser. In many cases, that can improve the situation.It is important to consider [Technical difficulty—Editor] talk about reporting. Older adults are just as capable as younger adults to decide what's best for their lives, and they may have different ideas of what kind of behaviour is acceptable. We need to meet them where they're at and understand that we might have really wonderful ideas on how we can significantly improve the situation for them, but if it's not something that the person wants, then it's really going to contradict quality of life and happiness, safety and security. Elder abuse prevention is a very convoluted and nuanced conversation, particularly when we're talking about people who are living in the community.For long-term care, for example, the conversation is much different. It is a much more structured environment. There definitely are ways that the reporting can be made a little bit more standardized. It's different across the country, unfortunately. Provinces and territories all have different models, so families and staff should be aware what resources are available for their facility, but in the community it's a much more complicated conversation.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you, Ms. Young.KathyMajowskiKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1605)[English]Thank you very much. You answered my next question, so I appreciate that.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.KateYoungLondon WestLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): (1605)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses.The Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities is conducting this study on the realities experienced by seniors during the worst of the pandemic. However, some of the issues were already there, long before we began our work. We can discuss the living conditions of our seniors in a comprehensive way, from a financial, social or health perspective.Ms. Oko, unfortunately, many seniors in residences are experiencing a situation like yours and your mother's. The same thing happened in some Quebec facilities. I would not lump all public seniors' care facilities together, because we also saw some good examples and good practices during the pandemic. However, the pandemic snuck up on us, and every province took steps to deal with it, to the best of their abilities. At times, it was painful for seniors, their loved ones and their families.They had to take action to protect seniors, including preventing their loved ones from visiting them, and you're absolutely right that isolation had a variety of effects. Thank you for your testimony, even though it was difficult. I feel it reflects the glaring testimonies of people across Canada, depending on the network.On the other hand, I have to say with all due respect that I'm skeptical of one solution that you seem to be putting forward, which is national standards that would come from Ottawa to regulate what's done in each province. I could tell you about the countless standards that we have in Quebec for our institutions and the organization of health care. These are choices we have made, particularly with respect to the number of attendants per patient. I don't believe that can be governed by a national policy that would apply uniformly. I have a very hard time believing that it will fix the situation.However, you mentioned something that we believe is important. You talked about underfunding with respect to personnel. So it's the underfunding [Technical difficulty] of the provinces, which have the skills to organize health care, because it's a provincial jurisdiction. So Ottawa has to contribute. The Ontario and Quebec governments had one request for the federal government: significantly increase health transfers so that the federal share of funding for expenditures meets the needs of the provinces so they can deliver services.How do you feel about the position of the Ontario and Quebec governments and others? Does Ottawa need to make a bigger contribution?COVID-19Health care systemLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsSeanCaseyCharlottetownMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1610)[English] When I made the suggestion about national standards for long-term care, my point was not that Ottawa would be dictating the quality of standards that would be imposed for each of the provinces. What I feel is that, yes, the federal government has an obligation to provide funding to each of the provinces, but they should also be working with each of the provinces, and why not use the best of what has worked in each of the provinces for the benefit of all Canadians who are living across Canada?To your point, it is very different. As an example, right now I can go to see my mom, but I need to take a PCR test weekly, and I've had to do this since August. I'm fully vaccinated; my mom is fully vaccinated. In addition to the PCR test, I also have to do a rapid test, and then, once I'm in the home, I have to wear a surgical mask and a face shield. In Quebec, based on friends I've spoken to, there is no need to do a PCR test and there's no need to do a rapid test. All they have to do is wear full PPE. In B.C., they don't have to do a rapid test or a PCR test, and the only thing they have to wear is a surgical mask. Why is there a difference?I'm at a point where, throughout this pandemic, if I could, I would have moved my mom from province to province depending on what was going on and working best for those seniors at that time. Why should I be in that situation? Why should families be put in that situation? We care, we love our loved one, we want them to have the best quality of care, and I feel that the provinces cannot expect to have a blank cheque providing funding to them without any kind of strings attached.Each of you represent our various provinces, and I feel that each of you working as leaders can work with our provinces to try to find a solution that will be equitable and fair for all of our seniors across the country.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you, Ms. Oko.[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English]Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.MaryOkoLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): (1615)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.I'd like to start out by commending Madame Oko for her strength and sharing the story about caring about her parents. I also looked after my parents when they were both sick many years ago and I know the toll it takes in trying to make sure that your parents have care that allows them to live in dignity. Thank you so much for sharing your story.Madame Majowski, thank you as well for your tremendous knowledge and work. My first question is to you.For years, advocates in the disability community, including seniors, have advocated for better supports for disabled persons so that they can live with dignity. Unfortunately, in my opinion, I don't think the rights of disabled persons were a priority for this government or previous governments before the pandemic or during the pandemic. Today, the day before the House rises and we're adjourning for summer—we have a potential election in the fall—finally this government introduced legislation to create a Canada disability benefit, known as Bill C-35, something that I hope sees the light of day, but I'm not very hopeful. To me, this piece of legislation should have been a top priority if we look at some of the statistics that we've witnessed during the pandemic.I'm wondering if you can speak about how both persons with disabilities and disabled seniors in particular have been disproportionately impacted during the pandemic.C-35, An Act to reduce poverty and to support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax ActCOVID-19PandemicPersons with disabilitiesSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1615)[English] Yes, absolutely. I'm going to speak a little bit from my day job role. I am a registered nurse and I work in the core area of Winnipeg. We see on a daily basis how underserved our older adults are. Those are my clients. Those are the people I support. We know that people fare better in our system with supports from family, friends and others advocating for them, but there's a large swath of individuals, both those who are disabled and older adults, who don't have those folks advocating for them, and they're really left to their own devices, so they're missing out on core services and finances and sometimes funding being available to them because they're not able to navigate the system and they don't have the community supports they need to be able to do that. That's where our program actually comes in and tries to fill in the gaps, but it's not enough and it hasn't been enough for years. For people with disabilities who also live in poverty or for people with disabilities who are over 55 or 65, the communities are not set up to support them. There are actually more barriers than supports in place. They're regularly hearing “no”. A lifetime of hearing “no” or “you don't qualify” or “you're not eligible” gets to be very disheartening. In the last year, with the pandemic, many of the services that had been in place consistently for these folks disappeared. Now we have individuals who are still living in poverty, who still have disabilities, who are still older adults at higher risk if they do contract COVID, but they are without access to technology and without access to phones. Some of the services are available only with technology. Our province has a wonderful counselling program that it launched and funded really early on in the pandemic, having recognized that mental health concerns are very real concerns. Many of our clients have no ability to access it. Either they don't have the skills to use technology or they don't have the funding to do it. We see that those gaps are significant, and they've widened with the decrease in services.COVID-19PandemicPersons with disabilitiesSenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1615)[English]Going back to the question of poverty, in 2012 Statistics Canada reported that 12.1% of older Canadians were living at a low income and that by 2016 the number had increased to 14.5%. That goes to your point that we're not taking better care of our seniors; in fact, they're going into deeper levels of poverty. On top of that, the pandemic also revealed the extent to which Canada forces seniors into vulnerable and unlivable conditions. I present this question to both of you. It's just a question. I put forward a motion for a guaranteed livable basic income. How do you think this would benefit seniors?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1620)[English]If I may start, Ms. Oko, I would say that I think this is huge in the community. We were told that $2,000 a month was the minimum amount that people needed to survive in Canada throughout the pandemic. Many of our older adults and people living with disabilities and older adults living with disabilities are expected to live on much less than that a month. They have to make concessions when it comes to the housing they choose and the services that are available to them. What food they are able to purchase is dependent on what's at the corner store, because they don't have transportation to get to a grocery store. The challenges are just compounded as we get older, and our older adults who are also living in poverty are much more impacted, with many more barriers being put in front of them. The guaranteed basic income would make a massive difference. It would finally allow them to feel comfortable.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1620)[English]Thank you. KathyMajowskiSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you, Ms. Majowski. Thank you, Ms. Gazan.Next is Ms. Dancho. Go ahead for five minutes, please.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC): (1620)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you, witnesses, for your testimony. I found it very heartfelt, and we could tell that pursuing better and dignified care that is compassionate and considerate for those in long-term care is very personal to you and a passion of yours. Obviously this year we've seen that there is an incredible need. It really feels as though it's lifted the veil for Canadians to see how [Technical difficulty—Editor] with home care, as you, Ms. Majowski, had touched on, as had Ms. Oko with regard to long-term care. I have a question for each of you. First, Ms. Oko, in some of the answers to other questions today you talked about isolation and the impact on your mother's health. We heard something similar in previous testimony as well. One witness told us that there is a measurable decline in physical and mental ability for seniors in long-term care after prolonged isolation. Also, I really appreciate how you laid out your remarks. There were the three problems and the four solutions. That was excellent. For the purposes of my question, could you outline a little bit further how you saw grave impacts from that isolation and potential solutions to that?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1620)[English] In the case of my mom, my mom was somewhat engaged. She did talk. When music was being played, she would readily clap her hands—not that she understood what was going on, but she had energy. Now when I visit with her, she sleeps most of the time. When she is awake, I can't get her to talk to me, or when I play music, she's just lying in bed. She's not engaged. I play-act. I have musical instruments. I play YouTube clips of polka music consistently while I'm dancing around the room. I can't get anything out of her. This is after just five months of isolation. I have good days and bad days, and a lot of days, unfortunately, they are bad: I'm there for maybe six or seven hours, and she's awake for maybe an hour. This is a woman who was walking with a walker in December.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1620)[English]Thank you for sharing that. I certainly took quite a few notes on your remarks and I will further reflect on the recommendations. I thought you made some very strong ones. I'm sorry that you're dealing with this in your family. I can appreciate the polka music; my grandparents greatly liked polka music as well. Again, thank you for what you're doing for your mom. I wish everyone had advocates like you are for your mother.Ms. Majowski, you touched on home care. I want to ask for your perspective on something I read recently by a man named André Picard, who has written extensively about long-term care. He is proposing that the Dutch model may be a solution to some of the issues that we're facing with home care. Recently my grandfather passed away. We tried really hard to keep him at home, as was his request, so he wasn't isolated at a hospital or in long-term care. However, we saw so many different home care workers who would come in for 50 minutes and often engage in very intimate activity with cleaning or changing. It was very difficult for an individual who thus far, until this point, had been completely autonomous. I just think that the Dutch model, whereby they come in, sit down, have coffee with the resident, spend a couple of hours there, and get to know the community and the other residents, was an interesting idea. Seeing it first-hand, I would love your perspective on that.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensMaryOkoKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1625)[English]Absolutely. I've personally witnessed, working in the community, less and less time available for frontline staff to interact with people. We've seen push-back from those same frontline staff, who are saying they can't do it. Yes, in an ideal world, they can prepare a meal in 10 minutes, but what about the clients who need to talk about something? What if there is a crisis going on? Way too many of our clients are hearing things like, “I'm sorry. I just don't have time. If I sit with you, I'm late for the next person.” Those significant time constraints in the community are robbing the people who are receiving services of real connections. It sounds like your grandfather did have family supports around him, and that's wonderful, but we know that for many people who are receiving home care, home care is their only contact with the outside world.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1625)[English]That's right.KathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1625)[English]If it's somebody coming in and doing very intimate care over a 10-minute period and maybe not even having time to introduce themselves or explain what they're going to do because they're so worried about getting it done in that period of time, they don't have that connection. They don't have that contact. It can actually feel very uncomfortable for the individual receiving care.I support the Dutch model. I support extending the time available for frontline staff who are caring for individuals in the community.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you.KathyMajowskiRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1625)[English]Thank you very much to both of you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you.Next we have Mr. Turnbull for five minutes, please.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull (Whitby, Lib.): (1625)[English]Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'm going to split my time with MP Vaughan.Ms. Oko, I want to echo the comments from my other colleagues about your testimony today. It's really emotional. I very much relate to it on an emotional level because it's very similar to the story of my own mother, who is in long-term care as well.I just want to ask you.... I know you've been advocating for your mother, and I know that's something that many family members have to do. I guess one reflection that I constantly have is that if you, as a person who needs care, have to rely on someone else to advocate for you in order to get the quality of care you need, it seems like a key indicator of a broken system. Would you agree with that?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1625)[English] Definitely. I'm advocating for my mom, but I'm also advocating for all the other residents. My fear is that because of privacy issues and confidentiality, whenever I'm dealing with the home or with the health care providers or the hospital, I can never talk about someone else because of confidentiality issues. It always has to be related to my mom. When I filed a complaint with the ministry, I raised concerns that existed for other residents, but unless it was something that was impacting my mom specifically, they couldn't address it. That's my biggest fear, because I myself do not have children. I do not have an advocate who will be advocating for me when the time comes that I need long-term care or assistance in a long-term care facility.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensRyanTurnbullWhitbyRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1625)[English] Thank you for that.Ms. Majowski, I have a quick question for you. You mentioned the survey you did and the large number of people reporting increased elder abuse during the pandemic. What kind of elder abuse did you see, specifically? Are you seeing social or financial abuse, neglect, physical abuse? Can you describe a little bit the trends that you were seeing?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensMaryOkoKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1625)[English]I would be happy to provide a report of our survey. We put out the survey to our members, to our network, which includes frontline service providers and researchers in the field from across the country. Off the top of my head, I don't know if we broke it down that specifically. I understand that there are different levels and different kinds of elder abuse, but the bottom line is that when our frontline senior service providers are saying that they're seeing an increase, that's the information that we're going with.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensRyanTurnbullWhitbyRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1630)[English]Okay, that's fair.I'll give the rest of my time over to MP Vaughan.KathyMajowskiAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan (Spadina—Fort York, Lib.): (1630)[English]Thank you.I share the whole committee's appreciation for the personal testimonies as well as the emotional impact they've had. Ms. Oko, you talked about national standards, but you also seem to talk about those standards not coming from Ottawa but being supported by Ottawa as a condition of funding. In other words, they come from frontline workers and they come from families and lived experience, but they're married to funding that Ottawa then distributes to provinces.Is that the system you're advocating?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsRyanTurnbullWhitbyMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1630)[English]Yes, I feel that no one person is the source of the best ideas. I feel that it has to be a collaborative effort, meaning the federal level, the provinces, the municipalities, the stakeholders, the advocates and the families coming together and working together collaboratively in terms of a standard that would make [Technical difficulty—Editor] perspective and a resource perspective that is doable across Canada from coast to coast to coast.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1630)[English]Is that partly driven from your experience of watching federal funding being invested into long-term care in Ontario while the situation didn't actually improve over the summer? During the second wave, some of the shortcomings actually intensified, so money wasn't the solution; a systems change also needed to be put in place. Is that part of where that observation comes from?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsMaryOkoMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1630)[English]Well, yes, and it's also just from the conversations that I've had with friends, primarily in Quebec and B.C., and comparing notes in terms of what was being done in those provinces.However, I'm sure if I started speaking to families from other provinces we'd see disparity as well. Even within the same city, the city of Toronto, when we were in the thick of an outbreak, one home—our home—was testing the staff only every five days for COVID, while another home that was in an outbreak was testing the staff every three days. Same city, same public health, same Ministry of Long-Term Care, and yet.... Why was that happening? Families were never given a proper answer.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Thank you, Ms. Oko. I'm sorry, Mr. Vaughan, that's your time. I know it goes by quickly.MaryOkoAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1630)[English]No worries. Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to talk about abuse. It's a pressing issue for our seniors. I can tell you that in Quebec, we now have a policy to fight abuse that was established even before the pandemic. The policy provides a definition of abuse and also protects staff members who report certain situations.I'd like to focus more on financial abuse. What role could we handle better in terms of fraud or financial abuse?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1630)[English]What would be the role for reporting? I want to make sure I'm understanding the question correctly.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1630)[Translation]What I meant to say is that each province probably has its own policies to handle these issues. However, when it comes to financial fraud, the federal government could play a role. Can anything be strengthened?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathyMajowskiKathy-MajowskiInterventionMs. Kathy Majowski: (1630)[English]Yes, absolutely. There's dependence on the financial abuser.In frauds and scams, that abuse is coming from individuals who are strangers or are scammers in various sectors. The financial abuser is somebody who's close to the older adult they're abusing, so it's a neighbour or family or a friend. At a federal level, I think that awareness is key. Many individuals don't necessarily know that they're being abused. They're being told that they owe this person money or that they're paying them for services. They've handed over their bank card or their credit card or they've given a power of attorney. Awareness of their rights would go a long way toward helping individuals realize that the way they're being treated and the way that their money is being taken from them is not right and needs to stop.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English] Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.KathyMajowskiLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1630)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.My question is for Madam Oko.Certainly the pandemic has shone a light on the glaring inequities and inequalities, and certainly targeted inequalities, in this country. I would say that seniors are one of the groups that have been targeted or ignored even prior to the pandemic. Had we ensured that seniors lived in dignity, we wouldn't have found ourselves in this situation in the first place. I think it relates to ageism and the idea that when you reach a certain age, you are no longer of value. They are the kinds of ideas that are associated with the concept of working—that when you are no longer working full time, you lose your value.I was really touched by the story you were telling about caring for your mom. We've heard comments like “COVID-19 isn't too dangerous, because it's just impacting older people.” We heard a lot of shocking things like that.Can you speak to how ageism played a role in the responses to COVID-19 and how it has impacted many of the seniors that you're talking about today?AgeismCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownMaryOkoMaryOkoMary-OkoInterventionMs. Mary Oko: (1635)[English]It's definitely an ageism issue, and I would add that it's a gender issue, because the majority of residents who are in long-term care are women and the majority of health care providers who work in a long-term care system are predominantly women, and also racialized women or newcomers.In terms of ageism, just [Technical difficulty—Editor] raising or escalating issues. Unfortunately, I had many discussions with the Ontario Ministry of Long-Term Care and the media and many people, and it just felt like people just didn't care. I would be giving them detailed accounts of what was going on in the homes. It always felt that my mom and the residents were being punished because they were living too long.Even after the outbreak, with her having the bedsore, in some of the discussions I had I would hear that my mom was frail, that she has advanced dementia, that this was to be expected. Yes, it's to be expected that she has advanced dementia and that she will decline, but not to have a stage 4 bedsore and not to have declined in five months' time.These are the kinds of conversations that I've had with many families within my home and in other homes as well: The resident has declined to the point where now they're not eating well and they're struggling and they need to be assisted with eating. The conversation is always, “Well, they're at that age,” or “It's dementia.” There's always some kind of an excuse. What I feel is that each person should be treated with dignity and have a quality of life and a quality of death. Each day should be a day of joy until that point when they are no longer living. We shouldn't be discriminating based on their age. I've had a conversation with a doctor who said that in some cases, age discrimination goes to somebody in their sixties. I'm sorry, but I feel that somebody in their sixties is still a young person with a lot of value.Who gets to decide? I think no one should be making that decision or making a judgment in terms of the quality of care that the person is getting.AgeismCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Oko. Thank you, Ms. Gazan.That concludes the questions for this panel of witnesses.Ms. Oko, your testimony touched and moved every one of us. I completely agree with Ms. Dancho that we should all be so fortunate to have an advocate like you. Your telling of your deeply personal story of your mom certainly has impacted us and has undoubtedly helped many other families in a similar situation.Ms. Majowski, you're probably aware that another parliamentary committee has recently completed a study with respect to elder abuse. It is something that has the attention of parliamentarians, due in no small part to your advocacy and that of others in that sphere.Thank you for the work that you're doing. Please know that it's making a difference. We very much appreciate your being with us today.Colleagues, we're going to suspend while we bid adieu to these witnesses and do a sound check for the next witnesses to come.We'll suspend for a couple of minutes. (1640)(1640)MaryOkoSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English] I call the meeting back to order.Today the committee is meeting on its study on the impact of COVID-19 on seniors. I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. Interpretation is available in this video conference. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either “floor”, “English” or “French”.[Translation]Please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mic should be on mute.[English]I would like now to welcome our witnesses to continue our discussion, with five minutes of opening remarks followed by questions. We have with us today, from the Canadian Men's Shed Association, Doug Mackie, chair.[Translation]We also have Violaine Guerin, coordinator of the Conseil régional de développement social des Laurentides.[English]We will start with Mr. Mackie for five minutes. I'm really looking forward to this. Mr. Mackie, you have the floor. SeanCaseyCharlottetownDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie (Chair, Canadian Men's Sheds Association): (1640)[English]Do I have to start off with a joke, or is that okay?Thank you for the opportunity to be a witness today. Men's Sheds is a volunteer-based organization that currently has 39 sheds, or groups of men, in Canada. It's part of a worldwide movement of over 2,200 sheds located in Australia, New Zealand, the U.K., Ireland, the U.S.A., Kenya, Iceland and other countries, as well as Canada. Men's Sheds opened in North America in 2010 here in Winnipeg. Men's Sheds is a unique volunteer grassroots organization run by men for men. The activities and projects are determined by the men themselves within their sheds, not from a central office. The main goal of a men's shed is to offer a safe, convenient place for men to gather, socialize, enjoy camaraderie and participate in individual projects or group projects while working shoulder to shoulder. When a man retires, he loses structure in his life, may leave his most important social contacts at work and loses meaning in his life. Senior centres do not fill the gap. The membership of most senior centres is made up of 80% women and 20% men. Men can be hesitant to seek help. There are no other programs in Canada just for men and run by men. Men's sheds combat loneliness, isolation, anxiety and depression in men. The Men's Sheds Association is not a self-help group. The Canadian Men's Sheds Association receives no federal funding, or even provincial funding, unless it's on a sporadic basis. This is very much unlike the Men's Sheds programs in the U.K., Ireland and Australia. The benefit of a men's shed is the improved emotional well-being or mental health of the men involved, thus improving the lives of the men, their families and the communities in which they live.This is respectfully submitted. Thank you. Canadian Men's Shed AssociationCOVID-19MenMental healthPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensVolunteering and volunteersSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Thank you, Mr. Mackie. [Translation]Mrs. Guerin, you have the floor for five minutes.DougMackieViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin (Coordinator, Conseil régional de développement social des Laurentides): (1645)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The mission of the Conseil régional de développement social des Laurentides is to increase and support the capacity for community action in social development in the Laurentides region. Its members come from different sectors working with vulnerable people, including seniors.The measures adopted during the pandemic have had a profound impact on the mental health of seniors, and we have seen an increase in the incidence of psychological disorders, including depression, anxiety, sleep disorders and post-traumatic stress.The physical and psychological effects on older adults will likely continue after the pandemic and beyond the time when physical distancing measures remain in place. To minimize the negative impacts, it is appropriate to ensure that visiting policies in residential facilities, hospitals and hospices balance the need to protect others with the need of the residents or patients to see family and to socialize.It would also be appropriate to study and review how and when we involve older adults across the country, to have them participate more in making decisions and developing policies that affect them. Social participation helps to protect the health of older adults. Those who participate have better cognitive abilities. While physical distancing measures are intended to protect the health of vulnerable people, the same measures also lead to social isolation, which in turn leads to the deterioration of mental health, physical health and cognitive abilities.Elderly people who have felt they were isolated during the pandemic have tended to engage in behaviours that are detrimental to their health. In addition, the disruption of many community services and home visits due to the pandemic has had a significant impact on the health of older adults who rely on the services.The pandemic has also given rise to more ageist messages and discrimination against older adults. These messages reaffirm a preconceived perception that older adults are vulnerable people whose lives are less valuable than those of younger people. [Technical difficulty], perceiving older adults as a homogenous group undermines their social identity, which makes them more susceptible to discrimination and exclusion, and fails to adequately portray their contribution to society or their resilience in the face of crisis. These messages may lead to a number of social consequences, such as discrimination against older workers and retirees looking to return to the workforce after the pandemic.Internalizing ageist messages could also have significant consequences on older adults, such as a loss of self-esteem and a loss of a sense of purpose in society.It is therefore important to use non-stigmatizing language to describe older people, to avoid stereotypes, and to avoid labelling all older people as frail and vulnerable. We should also refrain from referring to older people in words that have negative connotations and that convey prejudice. Intergenerational exchanges should be encouraged to increase solidarity between the generations and to fight prejudice. Awareness campaigns should also be developed to combat ageism.Fraud and abuse in all their forms have increased during the pandemic. Seniors have been targeted at a time when they are more vulnerable and anxious. They need the right tools to be as informed as possible about the various scams and frauds to which they could fall victim. It is therefore appropriate to strengthen prevention and protection services for seniors against all forms of violence, abuse and fraud. Seniors should also be informed, educated, made aware and equipped so that they know that those problems exist.The pandemic has come with its own set of challenges and has forced us to adapt very quickly to new technologies. However, the shift to virtual platforms socially excludes the elderly and places them at a lower level. Many older adults share a similar level of digital literacy, and few have been attending virtual gatherings during the pandemic. We are seeing deep inequalities in this group's social participation virtually, because it further excludes low-income seniors with lower levels of education, as well as those with underlying medical conditions.(1650)The situation has widened the digital divide, especially for seniors living in rural areas where Internet access is still lacking, and for the most vulnerable seniors who cannot afford to buy the technology.Seniors and their caregivers must therefore be helped to have access to digital communication tools or other ways of keeping in touch with family and social networks when actual travel is limited. We should also make it possible for older adults to participate in lifelong learning programs and improve their access to information and communication technologies.This is not new: seniors want to remain in their homes as long as possible. Given what we have experienced during the pandemic, with many deaths in various types of housing for seniors, seniors are even more resolved to remain in their private homes. Governments will have to look at concrete solutions to help seniors stay in their homes. Home-based services will need to be more readily available, so that they can remain in those homes under the best possible conditions.The shortage of affordable, adaptable and accessible housing is also a growing problem. This sometimes leads seniors to relocate and move closer to larger urban centres so they have access to housing that is more affordable and closer to amenities. It would therefore be advisable to increase mobile services to ensure access to more isolated seniors, or those with limited mobility, so their needs can be assessed and support provided.It would also be advisable to ensure that appropriate care services are always available for older adults. These include mental health services and palliative and geriatric care. They also include support for unpaid caregivers who provide care in the home and community, as well as paid social workers who provide home care and institutional care.We also need to ensure that community services and assistance to older adults, including social and legal services, are maintained despite physical distancing restrictions.We must recognize the critical role of family caregivers and enable them to play that role with the necessary tools.We suggest that programs be put in place to foster and support home care.In addition, more affordable and accessible community housing for seniors is needed so that they can continue to live in a safe environment.According to the market basket measure, in the Laurentides region, 6.3% of seniors aged 65 and over fall below the low income threshold, meaning that 5,930 individuals are in precarious situations. It's important that we gain expertise and be more vigilant with respect to the living and employment conditions of people aged 55 and over by ensuring that basic needs are covered and that they do not fall into the poverty level after they retire.We need to make it a priority to ensure the right to a basic quality of life for everyone, in retirement as in an entire lifespan. The social participation of seniors is no longer in question. The aging population certainly brings its own set of challenges—AgeismConseil régional de développement social des LaurentidesCOVID-19Digital literacyElder abuseHome care servicesMental healthPandemicSenior citizensSocial housingSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[Translation]Mrs. Guerin, are you almost finished?ViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1655)[Translation]Yes, I'm done. This is my conclusion.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[Translation]Okay, thank you.ViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1655)[Translation]However, it is important for us to measure the social impact that seniors have in the community. They are volunteers, mentors, caregivers, lovers of the arts and tourism, and consumers, just like everyone else.National programs and policies fail to adequately protect the human rights and the lives of older adults. The post-COVID‑19 recovery must be an opportunity to lay the groundwork for a more inclusive, equitable, and age-friendly society, rooted in human rights and with the goal of never again leaving anyone behind.Thank you.Care for the elderlyConseil régional de développement social des LaurentidesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. Guerin.[English] We will begin now with questions, starting with Mr. Morantz for six minutes.Welcome to the committee, sir. You have the floor.ViolaineGuerinMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, CPC): (1655)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's nice to be here.Hi, Doug.SeanCaseyCharlottetownDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1655)[English] Hi, Marty.MartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1655)[English]For purposes of disclosure, Doug is actually a constituent of mine, but more than that he is a great jokester, and more than that he is a great Manitoban. I first met Doug back when I was on Winnipeg City Council a few years ago and he came to present to the committee. I'd never heard of Men's Sheds, but since then I've visited Men's Sheds a number of times. This group does amazing work and really deserves the attention of this committee. In fact, I said to Doug that if my political career ever came to an abrupt or voluntary end, I may seek membership in the Men's Shed if they'll have me. We'll cross that bridge someday, I suppose.Doug, I want to give you a chance to speak a little bit more about Men's Sheds so the committee gets an idea as to exactly what happens there. I know when I visited, men were carving canes out of tree branches and doing woodworking and working with glass and doing all kinds of arts and crafts and things like that. I wonder if you could describe it. I see you have an example of the woodwork right there.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1655)[English] Yes, Marty, thanks very much.Men communicate differently from women and men communicate differently when they are virtually alone instead of within a group of mixed people. Quite often, a man starts his communication with his arms across his chest, protecting himself.What Men's Sheds offers is an open area where people can come and get to learn and to know each other. Why would they be doing this? Well, these are comfort birds, by the way, and they're given to palliative care patients. They fit beautifully in your hand. One of our men made 150 of them and donated them to a person working with people in palliative care.If you give a man something to do, whether it's a bigger project or a small project, he'll sit there and do his work and start looking at the man beside him or on the other side and watching what they're doing. Then, believe it or not, they open up. Who are you? What did you do? What is your family? How are you feeling? What are you doing? I can relate very personal stories about how doing things together shoulder to shoulder—and not in a plan, project or program that is dedicated to them but in an open-ended kind of thing—gives men an opportunity to sit back, relax and start to communicate.That's one of the questions or problems. People say, “Men don't communicate.” Yes, they do, under the proper circumstances.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1655)[English]I've seen it first-hand. It really is a great environment, particularly for men who are widowed or retired and alone, but even more when their situation is exacerbated by the COVID pandemic.I'm just wondering if you have been able to have meetings virtually at all, or have they been...? How have you coped?COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1655)[English]That's an interesting comment. What I found is that when men's sheds are within a good community—it could be Squamish or Vanderhoof, B.C., or Almonte, Ontario—those men get together. We've been having a number of Zoom meetings. At one stage of the game, I think I was on five or six a week, listening to men from all over.Interestingly enough, with a men's shed in Ireland and another situation with the U.K. Men's Sheds, Zoom has allowed us to meet and greet and establish relationships, both locally here in Canada and elsewhere on an international basis.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1655)[English]How many are there in Canada right now?COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1655)[English]At this moment, there are 39. About 1,200 men are involved.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1700)[English]You established the first one right here in Winnipeg, correct?COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1700)[English]Yes. My daughter in Saskatoon learned about Men's Sheds and phoned me and told me to go on a site in Australia. I looked at it and said, “Well, that's interesting”, and she said, “Good. Start one.”COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1700)[English]Now, while I've got you, because my time is limited, I wanted to touch on this. I know you said that in other countries that have men's sheds—in Ireland, Australia, the U.K. and so forth—there are federal supports. What would Men's Sheds like to see from the federal government? I know you've tried to apply for charitable status a number of times. I wonder if you could talk about that and the other kinds of supports that you think might be necessary from a federal perspective.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1700)[English]For Men's Sheds, the bottom line is mental health. I understand that we have 14 different jurisdictions in Canada. Some of you will say, “No, no, Doug, there are 10 provinces and three territories,” but you also need to throw in the aboriginal national health care program. That's the 14th one.Under those conditions, it's a very difficult situation to try to get all of the provinces, as you people know, to co-operate and come up with an individual program. However, I think it would be an advantage to have a small national office to advocate on behalf of all the provinces, and as we form more and more provincially based organizations, to be able to take the challenges and the opportunities to people such as you.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1700)[English]If I have time, Mr. Chair, I just have one quick last question. I think this is the most important question right now for Mr. Mackie. For anyone watching, how do they join Men's Sheds? How do they get involved?COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1700)[English]There's a national website. They can go on there. All inquiries end up in my email. I immediately get hold of them. I try to pick up the telephone and call them or do a Zoom meeting with them, but it's a very simple operation. If two or three men get together and want to call themselves a men's shed, we will accept them. There's no national cost.We like the New Zealand model, as a matter of fact. They pay about $40 a year for each of their 120 sheds.The one other comment I'd like to make about this, Marty, is that we have different sorts of social get-togethers here in Canada compared with Ireland, which could fit into the bottom half of Manitoba and only has about 450 sheds.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1700)[English] We have a lot of work to do, clearly.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1700)[English]Yes.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Morantz, and thank you, Mr. Mackie.DougMackieMartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1700)[English]Thank you, Doug.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Next we have Mr. Dong, please, for six minutes.MartyMorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.): (1700)[English]Thank you very much, Chair.Mr. Mackie, I really enjoyed your jokes in the beginning. I took notes. I'm going to share them with my kids and we're going to have a laugh.Thank you very much for telling the committee a bit more about Men's Sheds projects. I know some Men's Sheds projects across the country have received New Horizons for Seniors program funding and also the special COVID-19 additional funding that was announced and implemented, which is worth, I believe, $20 million.It's very important to support projects like this. You're right about the belief in society that men have trouble expressing how they feel or seeking help when they face mental health challenges. We know mental health challenges may lead to serious physical harm. I remember a report by CAMH indicating that over 75% of serious physical harm involved men.In your opinion, how can these projects or peer support groups combat stigma around mental health, especially when it comes to men in Canada?COVID-19MenMental healthPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1700)[English]Thanks, Mr. Dong, for your question.On your first comment about New Horizons for Seniors, it doesn't work on a national basis. Other than the one big project every five years.... I have a New Horizons for Seniors grant that ends at the end of this month. There are no Men's Sheds in Saskatchewan, but I cannot take any of the money that I have—and I will expend it all—and go to Saskatchewan to help them open up a Men's Shed. New Horizons for Seniors is provincially mandated. It's to one province. It does not go across provinces. With our kind of situation, I need some funding to be able to go across provinces.The second thing is that I'd like all of you to look at the New Horizons for Seniors priority 3. Why do I say number 3? I'm going to read only part of it. It says, “Combatting ageism, celebrating diversity and promoting inclusion”. Then it says, “particularly members of underrepresented or underserved groups including but not limited to: women, Indigenous Peoples, persons with disabilities, members of racialized and newcomer groups, and members of the LGBTQ2+ communities”. I want you to note that I can find no place within New Horizons for Seniors with any mention of programs or opportunities for men, period.COVID-19MenMental healthPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1705)[English]I appreciate that input. You mentioned different levels of government needing to work together to provide that support. In your opinion, how does that look in terms of creating more outreach initiatives from the government to support peer-to-peer support groups?COVID-19MenMental healthPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1705)[English]Again, it's interesting. We started Men's Sheds here in Winnipeg. It's now spread throughout B.C. and somewhat around Alberta, but nowhere east of Montreal. How do we start supporting it, or how do I, as an individual? I live on a fixed income. I'm 80 years old. How do I reach out to those people or get a program to those Men's Sheds or possible groups of men in other communities? It's time-consuming and it's a process. I certainly have enjoyed the challenge over the years. It gets me up in the morning. If there was funding that would allow Men's Sheds to do their outreach outside of an individual province, that would be of assistance. If there was potential funding—and we'd have to be careful here—for a one-person advocate or manager on a national level, I think that has some merit.We also need to try to work with Canadian mental health associations wherever we can. It's interesting that CMHA has different priorities depending on where they are. Recently I gave a Zoom meeting instruction on how to open up a Men's Shed to the rural part of the Alberta division of the Canadian Mental Health Association.COVID-19MenMental healthPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1705)[English] Thank you very much.Do I have more time for one question? DougMackieSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]You have just under a minute.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1705)[English]I have a quick question to Madame Guerin.In your work, have you noticed any challenges that seniors face in terms of accessibility? To keep them active and socially connected, accessibility is very important.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingSeanCaseyCharlottetownViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1705)[Translation]Yes, it's a fairly widespread problem, especially in transportation. The Laurentides region has many rural areas, which raises major issues for public or adapted transportation. This means that seniors may be significantly isolated. We also have a shortage of accessible and adaptable housing to accommodate the various stages that seniors go through over the years. Someone can enter housing with their independence, but then gradually lose it. The lack of adequate services or the fact that people's surroundings encourage them to move cause difficulties for those who want to remain in their homes. Social disruptions also occur when seniors have to move once they have lost their autonomy. So all levels of government should reflect on all the work that needs to be done to make housing more accessible.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. Guerin.ViolaineGuerinSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Dong.Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.HanDongDon Valley NorthLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank our guests very much for their testimony.Mrs. Guerin, I salute you. Thank you for your testimony and for everything you do as coordinator of the Conseil régional de développement social des Laurentides. We can see how important these agencies are in Quebec. I congratulate you.Your testimony is so broad. You addressed social factors, economic factors, work factors, but, above all, you succeeded in brilliantly describing the contribution that seniors make in our society. I don't know how I'm going to approach my questions. As the labour critic, I was struck by one topic in particular in your testimony: when you were talking about job losses among seniors and their return to work.Your brief indicates that, in 2008, people aged 62 and older were the least likely to find new jobs after becoming unemployed and that they may experience negative age stereotypes in attempting to return to work.Do you believe this problem will continue? We know that people 60 and older sometimes work to meet certain needs. Can specific efforts be made to avoid that kind of discrimination?AgeismCOVID-19Older workersPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1710)[Translation]That question could be answered from several perspectives.Yes, seniors don't always return to the workforce by choice. Sometimes, they do so out of necessity, because they can't support themselves on their retirement pensions. This is already a problem.On the other hand, I believe seniors will continue to be stigmatized in the labour market. If anything, the pandemic has made it worse. Because seniors are considered to be more vulnerable, employers have been hesitant to hire experienced workers, even though we have programs with financial incentives to do so. The incentives have not been enough to convince employers, who feel that hiring experienced people costs more and is more risky.For all these reasons, I don't believe this problem is going to go away in the next few months, or even years. I think it's something that needs to be seriously addressed, because, with life expectancy on the rise, there will be more older workers. So it's an issue that we are really going to have to deal with.AgeismCOVID-19Older workersPandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1710)[Translation]As you may know, the Bloc Québécois is particularly concerned about the financial situation of seniors. I'm not saying that it's the only party concerned. I don't want to stigmatize anyone. That said, we know that seniors are becoming poorer. The pandemic has increased costs in terms of groceries, housing and drugs. Some seniors are family caregivers. The cost of getting around has increased as well.The government decided to help seniors by increasing the old age security pension, but only for people aged 75 and over. In our opinion, it would be fairer to support all seniors by providing this increase to everyone aged 65 and over. What do you think about this?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1710)[Translation]A number of factors prevent a person from working up to the age of 75 and result in a drop in income well before then.For example, as you rightly said, a number of seniors must leave the workplace not by choice, but because they become family caregivers. They leave the workplace to take care of their spouse or loved one. Their income drops significantly.Of course, providing financial compensation to seniors aged 65 and over would certainly meet the needs of a larger portion of the population.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1715)[Translation]I would now like to talk about affordable housing.You're conducting a great study for our region, the Laurentians. We need to determine how to adapt housing and make it affordable for seniors.It has taken years, but the federal government has implemented the rapid housing initiative. There's also the national housing strategy. Yet Quebec municipalities are saying that this isn't enough.You believe in the need to strengthen these measures to meet housing needs.What makes these needs so critical?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingViolaineGuerinSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[Translation]Please keep your answer brief, Ms. Guerin.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1715)[Translation]The current housing situation is indeed of great concern throughout Quebec.In terms of housing for seniors, a great deal of community housing is being built for people who are independent or semi‑independent. However, the housing isn't adaptable for people who are experiencing a loss of independence. As I said earlier, this is an issue. It drives people to leave their housing, and sometimes to move to another region. This leads to social disruptions, which are increasingly difficult to address as people get older. The older you get, the less you can adapt to certain changes. This has physical, cognitive and mental implications.The need to design new housing for seniors is a specific issue.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[Translation]Thank you.[English] We have Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.ViolaineGuerinLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1715)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.I'd like to welcome Mr. Mackie, a fellow Manitoban, to the committee today.I have some questions for Madame Guerin on affordable and accessible social housing. In my riding in Winnipeg Centre, many seniors are on the verge of being unsheltered—a real threat, a real reality—as a result of not being able to afford housing. Can you speak a bit more about the importance of affordable, accessible social housing as one of the most important social determinants of health?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingSeanCaseyCharlottetownViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1715)[Translation]Housing is indeed one of the social determinants of health. This right should be a given and accessible to all.We're currently experiencing a very worrying and difficult situation. We're seeing uncontrolled increases in housing costs throughout Quebec. Measures should be implemented to slow down this increase in housing costs. Old age and retirement pensions remain unchanged, while rental, grocery and electricity costs keep increasing. This makes the most vulnerable people even more vulnerable. Some people are facing fairly significant levels of poverty.Affordable housing is a major and very significant issue. However, I was also talking earlier about adaptability and accessibility. It isn't enough to have affordable housing. It must also be adaptable and accessible for our seniors.A potentially suitable solution would be to implement community structures where senior care services could be provided on site and where housing could be adapted to the seniors' progressive loss of independence, depending on their changing health status. We should be able to provide this care to seniors where they live, so that they can spend the rest of their lives in the same place. This solution would be good to consider.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1715)[English] I really appreciate what you've shared, particularly about choice. I know we've had many witnesses come to committee who have talked about widening options so that seniors can choose if they want to be at home or in a long-term care facility. They have talked about opening things up so people actually have a choice. Having a choice is really important for people to maintain their dignity and independence, particularly as we age and particularly for women. Speaking about women, we know that women, as they age, live at disproportionately higher levels of poverty than men. They are not eligible for pensions, for example. Their care work is often not paid. How has poverty disproportionately impacted seniors during the pandemic?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1720)[Translation]I can't give you a specific answer to that question.That said, women often have lower levels of education or have done invisible work by staying at home to raise their children. They receive fewer pension benefits. Sometimes, they don't get any benefits. This is indeed an issue for women.Many isolated people live alone in Quebec. These people are increasingly living alone in their own homes. They may not have access to all the available health care. This leads to mental and physical health issues that can become worse. There are issues with the accessibility of home care. In addition, we must be able to identify the most vulnerable people in society.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1720)[English]To follow up with that, one of the things I've been pushing for is a guaranteed livable basic income. Could you speak about the importance of ensuring that all seniors have a livable income?COVID-19Guaranteed annual incomePandemicSenior citizensViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1720)[Translation]Yes. I completely agree with this proposal.COVID-19Guaranteed annual incomePandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1720)[English]Do you have anything to add on the importance of having a livable income?COVID-19Guaranteed annual incomePandemicSenior citizensViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1720)[Translation]This would ensure that all seniors have the same opportunities and would limit social inequality. It would ensure that all seniors can participate in social activities, can get out of their homes, can afford transportation to go grocery shopping, or can go to the movies if they wish to do so. A number of them can't afford to participate in certain cultural or social activities because they don't have enough income. Their income barely covers their basic needs, such as housing, clothing and food. Their expenses come down to about that.When people can't afford to buy food or clothing, fortunately, community organizations provide a major social safety net in our society. These organizations support the most vulnerable people and make it possible for them to maintain some quality of life.Ultimately, basic income should be raised to reduce social inequality.COVID-19Guaranteed annual incomePandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Guerin.[English] Thank you, Ms. Gazan.ViolaineGuerinLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1720)[English]Thank you so much.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Next we have Ms. Dancho for five minutes, please.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1720)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their testimony today. My first question is for Mr. Mackie. Thank you for being here. My understanding is that your organization provides—please correct me—support for senior men. You come together almost fraternity style, with friendship, support and similar interests, to help senior men cope with the issues that [Technical difficulty—Editor].COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1720)[English] Yes, that's it. I'd like to make one comment on the last speech. I have a homeless son here in Winnipeg, living in a shelter. If you want to get really personal, I can tell you some stories. Anyway, I'll get back to it. What Men's Sheds does is offer a place for what we call “health by stealth”. Health by stealth is not an arranged total program on whatever; instead, we bring in speakers. We may bring in someone on Alzheimer's, on stroke recovery or whatever. We ask someone to speak about it to the men. It's interesting, because if a man and his spouse or partner go to a public meeting, quite often the man sits there with his arms across his chest and doesn't ask any questions and doesn't want to reveal, but if you get a group of men working together, trying to learn something together, then they will come to listen to a speaker on nutrition, on Ducks Unlimited, on stroke recovery and all of these kinds of things. The second part of it is that we go back to those organizations—it can be mental health, it can be occupational therapists—and ask them to socially prescribe to Men's Sheds. If you're not familiar with social prescribing, please look it up. They refer men. Medical people refer men to us. COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1725)[English]Mr. Mackie, how would you say that your efforts to support men in your community with this program have been impacted by COVID? I know you outlined it a little bit, but have you felt that it's been quite detrimental? What have the impacts been? It sounds like you gather in a group and socialize and have the camaraderie that I would imagine is quite important to that model of service delivery. How has that been impacted by the COVID measures, and how do you feel we can best move forward?COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1725)[English]We're trying to prepare for that right now, as we go along, but yes, virtually every Men's Shed has closed down. We can't get together as a group. We've been in lockdown in Manitoba since about November 7, and all the Men's Sheds have closed. The unfortunate situation is that some of the locations where we used to run a Men's Shed may not be available to us as we come out of COVID. The reason is the costs. They have now gone into debt, and they're going to start saying to us that we have to pay them $200 a month. We don't have enough money. As a sideline, we raise money by garage sales of tools.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1725)[English]Oh, that's very innovative.DougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1725)[English]We collect tools. I got one email this morning saying, “Do you want a chop saw? Do you want a radial arm saw?” It was two or three things. I literally know who the man is, so I'll pick those up in the next little while and we'll store those items for the tool garage sale. Now, that has much further implications than simply raising some money in a garage sale. It's fascinating, because quite often younger people who come to that tool garage sale start to learn to use those tools. They ask how you use it, and one of the men will mentor them.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1725)[English] You're passing on this sort of generational handyman knowledge from the senior men to the younger men and women.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1725)[English]Yes. That's what I was going to say. It's always fascinating for me to watch the younger women who come in and say, “I want to buy that tool. I'll learn how to do it. Where do I go and what do I do?”COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1725)[English]It's wonderful.DougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1725)[English]Yes.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1725)[English]I appreciate that. When I went off to university many years ago, the gift my father gave me as a parting gift was a tool box. I actually used it quite a bit. My grandfather had taught me many things when he was around, so I really appreciate the generational knowledge that you're also providing. I can imagine that there are many opportunities with the shed model to bring in younger and perhaps troubled men to have that knowledge and the transfer from senior men.I want to thank you for what you're doing, and I hope that your organization can fully recover when we come out of this pandemic. Thank you, Mr. Mackie.COVID-19MenPandemicPeer supportSenior citizensDougMackieDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1725)[English]Thank you very much.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Thank you, Ms. Dancho.Next is Mr. Vaughan, please, for five minutes.DougMackieAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1725)[English]Thanks very much.Madame Guerin, I was curious about your observations vis-à-vis accessible housing and isolation. Obviously during COVID, when people were asked to stay home, people without accessible housing, and particularly seniors, may be able to navigate the stairs once or twice a day very carefully, but if they forget their glasses or need something from downstairs or upstairs, accessibility becomes a limiting factor if we don't build accessible housing.Are the programs sufficient in delivering accessible housing in Quebec right now?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingSeanCaseyCharlottetownViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1725)[Translation]I would say that the programs aren't enough. Certainly more programs are needed to build additional accessible housing for seniors.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1730)[English]One of the characteristics of the national housing strategy, which is the federal funding that flows through Quebec City to the province, is a federal requirement that 25% of all new affordable housing be built to a universal design to allow for people with disabilities and also to allow people to age in place. Is that a program you would support? Would you support a federal standard at the provincial level for 25% of all new social housing to be built to that standard?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1730)[Translation]It's hard for me to comment on that percentage. I'm not sure that it would be enough. We know that we'll need to deal with an aging population in Quebec and in Canada. More and more seniors will be part of our community. I think that we must anticipate the situation, to avoid ending up in a difficult situation in the coming years. We know that, in 20 or 30 years, the number of seniors in our population will grow dramatically. I think that we must anticipate this growth and plan now for new accessible housing for these people, which includes the services that they'll need.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1730)[English]You would support the federal position, which is that accessible housing should be mandated to be part of any new public housing program. Otherwise, it gets built without those—COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1730)[Translation]Certainly.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1730)[English]That's one of the areas where federal requirements can help advance the needs of the people of Quebec without necessarily being agreed to or not agreed to by the Province of Quebec.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1730)[Translation]Yes.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1730)[English]In terms of how affordable housing is delivered, one of the other components of the national housing strategy is rent support. We know that as people age in place, and particularly as people with disabilities age in place, there are additional costs attached. You spoke about basic income before, but there are additional costs that model around the person's life as opposed to just simply turning 65 and getting a cheque. Disability, as well as age and as well as gender, are all intersectional realities that create different costs of living for different people.Is it a single system of paying everyone the same, or do we need to pick up and pay for the exceptionalities that differentiate one particular age population as opposed to another? In other words, do we need to fit the programs around people, or do we need to fit people into the programs? As we see COVID take root, how critical is it to make sure that we attend to the individual needs of people and not just treat them as over 65, and that's that?COVID-19Guaranteed annual incomePandemicSenior citizensViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1730)[Translation]The danger of focusing only on individual needs is that social inequality will surely increase. If we focus only on specific issues, we'll certainly leave out certain categories of the population. These people won't be able to benefit from some programs, given the strict and limited eligibility criteria.It would be worthwhile to provide an equal guaranteed income for everyone, with the possibility of additional subsidies for specific issues, such as a disability.Ultimately, I think that it would be better to standardize the basic amounts to create a more inclusive society with much less social inequality.COVID-19Guaranteed annual incomePandemicSenior citizensAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English] Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.ViolaineGuerinLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1730)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Ms. Guerin, I'll ask you an open‑ended question and give you time to answer it.I really liked your reference to human rights in your testimony, which included issues relating to isolation, mental health, psychology, affordable housing, dignity, poverty and equality.You said that our analysis grid should be based on human rights. Could you elaborate on that, please?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1735)[Translation]I think that everyone should have the same rights at every stage of their lives. I'll shift the focus a little from seniors to the ability of young people to stay in school during the pandemic. It became apparent very quickly that the most vulnerable people didn't have access to computers for remote learning. From the outset, we saw how social inequality could exist from a very young age.It's important to further include people living in special situations in the process of reflecting on the programs that we want to implement. These programs must be developed with input from the people concerned. That way, we'll be much better able to meet their needs and find strategies and answers that reflect the real needs of the public. The first step is to further include the people concerned in the reflection process. This applies as much to seniors as to young people, to victims of domestic violence or to people who are homeless. We must include them in our reflection process in order to build programs that truly meet the real needs of the community.Everyone should have the same rights. Everyone should have access to safe housing in good condition. Everyone should have access to healthy food, not just food from food banks that isn't always fresh or of good quality. Many seniors use food banks because they can't afford to go to the grocery store.All these things must be taken into account and considered when developing future programs in order to build a fairer and more inclusive Quebec and Canada.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1735)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Guerin.[English]Finally, the last person to pose questions today will be Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.Go ahead, Ms. Gazan.ViolaineGuerinLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1735)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.My question is for Mr. Mackie.You spoke a lot about the conditions of social isolation and the impacts of social isolation during the pandemic. How does your organization assist with combatting the social isolation of seniors? COVID-19PandemicPeer supportSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1735)[English] I think you've made an assumption here that we have a top-down organization. We do not. We have a bottom-up grassroots organization. Each Men's Shed, wherever it is, has been looking after their own within their community. Whether it's in Neepawa or in Altona, these men quite often are keeping in touch by Zoom or talking to each other on the phone. We have encouraged that. Because we're not top-down, we do not impose programs on anyone. It's up to the individual shed, and many of them have done a great job on that.COVID-19PandemicPeer supportSenior citizensSocial marginalityLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1735)[English]One of the things we've discussed a lot in committee is the importance of technology, especially during the pandemic, when people can't meet in person. Would it be helpful to get support for participants so they can participate should they have, for example, issues with accessing the Internet or computers?COVID-19Digital literacyPandemicSenior citizensDougMackieSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1735)[English]Excuse me for one minute, colleagues.The bells are ringing in the House. Therefore, we require unanimous consent to continue. Ms. Gazan actually only has about another minute to go, so I don't think it's much of an imposition. Are we okay just to finish up this round, and then we'll adjourn?We are. Thank you.Ms. Gazan, go ahead.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1735)[English]Just build on that. Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownDougMackieDougMackieDoug-MackieInterventionMr. Doug Mackie: (1735)[English] That's an excellent idea. Again, I can hardly wait for COVID to be over, allowing us to meet again, and to bring in technical people and show people how to do some of these things.I personally teach Zooming. Whenever I can, when I get hold of someone, I first of all telephone them and then I set them up to download Zoom onto their machine. I have them do that. Then the next thing I do is set up an individual Zoom meeting with that particular man. Then they gain confidence. Many times the technical aspects of computers are simply outside the confidence of older men, who sometimes feel they should know it all and are therefore not going to ask questions. Any way that we can expand their confidence in using computers, etc., would be a help.COVID-19Digital literacyPandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1740)[English]Thank you so much.DougMackieSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[English]You can ask one short and final question if you want, Ms. Gazan.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1740)[English]Yes, sure.I'm going to turn to Madam Guerin.In terms of technology, you talked a little bit about social isolation. One of the things I've been talking about is making Wi-Fi a public service. Would you agree that this would be helpful with seniors?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityWireless communicationSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[Translation]Ms. Guerin, you have the final opportunity to speak. Please keep your comments brief, if possible.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreViolaineGuerinViolaineGuerinViolaine-GuerinInterventionMrs. Violaine Guerin: (1740)[Translation]This service should be free and accessible everywhere. This would strongly support the participation of seniors, especially the most vulnerable seniors, who may not have access to new technology, as I said. It would support the inclusion of many people who unfortunately can't afford to access new technology.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityWireless communicationSeanCaseyCharlottetownLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1740)[English]Thank you so much.ViolaineGuerinSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.I want to thank the witnesses for being with us.Mr. Mackie, you have a very effective way of capturing and keeping the attention of your audience. I'm sure that's a big reason for the success of Men's Sheds.[Translation]Ms. Guerin, thank you for your testimony. You obviously have extensive knowledge of the topic. We appreciate your work with your community and your presence here today.[English]Colleagues, that is a wrap for the summer. I hope you're able to put your feet up and have a very relaxing and enjoyable summer. I look forward to seeing you all back here energized and ready to go in September.With that, is it the—LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1740)[English]Could we please give three cheers to our chair, who has been gracious, organized, smart, helpful and a good friend to all of us?Sean, it's never easy to herd cats like MPs are herded at times, but you've done a heck of a job. I just want to thank you for all your assistance.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[English] You're very gracious.We stand adjourned.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.)): (1545)[English] I call this meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 42 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 2, 2021, the committee will resume its study of the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions.[Translation]Our first witness today is Serge Séguin, chief executive officer of the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées.[English]From the Manitoba Association of Senior Centres, we have Connie Newman, executive director of the age-friendly Manitoba initiative.For the benefit of our witnesses, I'd like to offer the following additional comments. (1550)[Translation]Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either Floor, English or French. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mic should be on mute.We will begin with Mr. Séguin.Welcome to the committee, Mr. Séguin. You have the floor for five minutes.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin (Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées): (1550)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. The Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées, commonly called the AQDR, was established on May 1, 1970. It is incorporated as a not-for-profit organization under part III of Quebec's Companies Act. We currently have 25,300 members across AQDR's 41 sections in 16 administrative regions of Quebec. Today the committee is studying the impact of COVID‑19 on seniors. The timing is good because the AQDR also surveyed its members on the same subject in late 2020. From October 30 to November 8, 2020, we conducted a survey of our Internet-connected members, approximately 17,000 out of a total of 25,000. Some 1,214 members answered 96 open and closed questions. The open questions elicited 4,000 comments from respondents. The research firm Infras, in Lévis, Quebec, has certified that the survey was 90% representative.From the survey answers, we developed an analytical report in which we stated 15 demands and 31 recommendations for the Government of Quebec, more particularly its department of health and social services and Quebec's minister for seniors and caregivers, Marguerite Blais. We grouped those demands and recommendations together under four headings. The first two, quality of life and health and social services, are two components involved in maintaining quality of life and health and social services during the pandemic. The third theme is improving health and social services after the pandemic, and, lastly, the fourth is acknowledging and supporting caregivers.All survey documents are accessible on the home page of our website at aqdr.org. We have provided the committee with the URL so it can access the documents from our survey on the impact that COVID‑19 has had on our members.To date, we have met the three persons responsible for seniors for the three opposition parties in the National Assembly of Quebec. We have also met the minister responsible for seniors and caregivers to discuss our survey and recommendations to the government. We have requested a meeting with Quebec's minister of health and social services, Christian Dubé, but unfortunately have not yet received any responses, although the minister has received our survey report and that of Infras.In addition to the recommendations that have come out of this survey, we request that an estates general be held to determine seniors' needs and the services that must be provided to them in the next few years and to prepare ourselves for any future pandemics.Thank you.Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitéesCare for the elderlyCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Séguin.[English] Next we're going to hear from the Manitoba Association of Senior Centres.Ms. Newman, welcome to the committee. You have the floor for five minutes.SergeSéguinConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman (Executive Director, Age-Friendly Manitoba Initiative, Manitoba Association of Senior Centres): (1550)[English] Thank you, and thank you for the experience. This is very interesting.I'm Connie Newman, executive director, as you're aware, of the Manitoba Association of Senior Centres' age-friendly Manitoba initiative. I work with a team of six older consultants as we connect with 60-plus member centres throughout the province and over 90 age-friendly communities throughout Manitoba. Today I am a caregiver for three people whose homes are personal care homes—three different homes, three different residences. I'm fortunate; my three special friends—they're not family—all survived COVID. I have experience. I'm also one of many my age who are tech savvy, sort of. I'm going to share with you a collection of thoughts, both my own and from others who I connect with on a regular basis.Personal care homes are institutions. They are supposed to be homes. Why do they present as hospitals and/or institutions? Collectively, we must improve regulations, provincially as well as nationally. Regulations must be monitored. Funding transfers to the provinces must have standards attached. For families with loved ones in personal care homes, challenges were heightened when in-person visits became impossible due to COVID-19 restrictions. There was, in some cases, almost total isolation from one another and periods with no visits. Visits were shorter, less frequent and with encumbered conversation connections. Caregivers and volunteers pre-COVID provided much-needed support to their loved ones, family and friends. COVID hit, and that support was left to staff, who did not have the time to focus on the person as caregivers and volunteers did.Now to community: 93% of older adults are living in the community, often known as aging in place. I became involved in the age-friendly concept early in my career. It takes an entire community to raise a child. I believe it takes an entire community to look after its own older adults.In 2008 the World Health Organization told us to get ready for the change in population. It is 2021 today. We have more older adults than we have teenagers. There's a population shift. Many are living longer than ever, many of us healthy and trying to maintain our health. Many older adults do not have family in their communities. The community is a social connection. We all know that social participation is a determinant of one's own health, no matter what age. COVID hit, and we were not ready for the population shift. We sure were not ready for isolation.I'm an age-friendly champion. In many daily connections, I am constantly involved with age-friendly domains: social participation, communication, housing, transportation, community health, building outdoor spaces and civic participation. When I think about them in a community in Canada, where there is an age-friendly focus, COVID was there. The community was working together for each other of all ages. When looking back at these domains, underlying COVID impacted seniors with transportation or a total lack of it. Programs for those aging in community—that's 93% of us—must be maintained, enhanced and encouraged.In Manitoba we have support coordinators by community and district, who are tasked with connecting individually to older adults and assisting, where they can, in connecting them to services. During COVID they did their best in attempting to maintain some sort of connection. Zoom connections saved many where good Wi-Fi existed; 211 by phone became a lifesaver. People with dementia and their caregivers are among the most valuable in our communities, and the COVID-19 pandemic has put those families at even greater risk.(1555) Persons with dementia and caregivers were negatively impacted by the gap left by the suspension of formal programs. We have adult day programs that stopped running. Lower-income seniors living on their own or in congregate settings.... We need to ensure that their basic needs are being met—Maslow's hierarchy for those seniors.On Internet access, who is responsible for ensuring equal access to the World Wide Web? Is it fair, if a person lives in a rural or remote area, that they do not have the same quality of access to information? Why is it that low-income housing in an urban setting does not have Wi-Fi access today? Devices are cheap. Training is a minimal cost. Wi-Fi for equal access must be an all-government focus.We must continue to collaborate with the World Health Organization on the “Decade of Healthy Aging”. Since COVID hit, I have spent several mornings listening to those wise ones from all over the world. We must learn from each other. We know that COVID has impacted older women living in rural and remote areas, and the data today is impacted or under-reported. Many more are suffering mental health issues and more significant anxiety and depression from prolonged isolation. We're seeing now, today, a lot of hesitancy to get back and involved.The opportunity for social connection and engagement is limited by going virtual. Many older adults have limited Wi-Fi access or may choose not to use it.Aging populationBroadband Internet servicesCare for the elderlyCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Health services accessibilityLong-term careManitoba Association of Senior CentresPandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Ms. Newman, could I get you to wrap it up there, please? There will be a lot of time to expand on your remarks during the questions and answers.ConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1600)[English]Thank you. I'm sorry.With regard to COVID, seniors and elder abuse, 8.2% of older adults are experiencing abuse. Justice at all levels of government must pay attention to existing laws, education and the meaning of those laws. We need to watch for ageism. We, as a civil society, along with governments setting policy, must work together to ensure that no one is left behind, no matter what age. The failures of COVID must be lessons learned moving forward.Thank you.COVID-19Elder abuseManitoba Association of Senior CentresPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Ms. Newman.We're going to begin, now, with rounds of questions, starting with Ms. Falk, please, for six minutes.ConnieNewmanRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk (Battlefords—Lloydminster, CPC): (1600)[English]Thanks, Mr. Chair.Before I start my time, I'm just wondering if you can confirm that, for the total of seniors meetings, today counts as half of a meeting versus a full meeting.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]That's confirmed.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1600)[English]Thank you.I'd like to thank both of the witnesses for coming here today and contributing to this study, and for their advocacy on behalf of older Canadians. Thank you for that. As we gain a fulsome understanding of the impact of the pandemic on seniors, your testimony will help paint a clear picture of how we can better support seniors.Ms. Newman, I would have to agree with you. I am a member of Parliament for a rural riding, and I believe that access to the Internet is imperative. We need that, especially when everybody is locked in their homes and kids are doing school and seniors can only FaceTime or Zoom with others. I absolutely agree with you.We have heard about the importance of choice and autonomy in helping seniors age and live with dignity. Ms. Newman, could you share with this committee what role, if any, age-friendly communities played in supporting seniors throughout the pandemic?Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1600)[English]Definitely. In the smaller, rural communities in Manitoba, I know that support coordinators, along with others in the community, connected with each other. In large urban centres like Winnipeg, those same seniors support coordinators were able to make the connections and be visible by phone or online with those who were isolated. It's the network aspect of age-friendly communities; it's who is talking to whom.Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1600)[English]Sure. That completely makes sense.Are there lessons to be learned from the pandemic on how to better create age-friendly communities to combat pandemic consequences like social isolation?Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1605)[English] The short answer is yes. One of the principles of age-friendly is communication, and what communication exists between all the stakeholders in a community, in a town, in a village or in a city. That, to us, is one of the critical pieces—who are the stakeholders, who's working with whom—so that we're all looking for the best for all.Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1605)[English]Could you suggest what role the federal government could play in supporting age-friendly communities, or how the federal government could assist in that?Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1605)[English]I'm a member of the Public Health Agency of Canada's age-friendly reference group, and we're talking about that across Canada on a monthly basis. We have different ideas. It has become the Canada-wide place to go for information.On lessons learned, we can all learn from each other. I get on those meetings once a month, and I hear about good things in B.C., Quebec and a few others—P.E.I. and New Brunswick. We need to share with each other. The federal government, in my mind, right here, right now, needs to look after that aspect of the Public Health Agency of Canada's age-friendly reference group.Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1605)[English]What's so great about that, too, is that you're connecting with people from across the country. Even though regionally it may be different, there may be similarities or items or things you can glean from it that then can be implemented where you are, which I think is great.I'm wondering if you could touch on how services offered by seniors centres changed, or how the needs of seniors changed during the pandemic.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWireless communicationConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1605)[English]It depends upon the income level is the first thing. We all got shut down across this country. For those seniors—and the data shows it—who are tech savvy, seniors centres, many of them, went to Zoom programming two or three times a day. I have a seniors centre in Manitoba that had 75 people doing exercises on Zoom on a weekly basis: a daily basis within the week, for six programs a week. There was that flip in a lot of cases, if you had good Wi-Fi access, to Zoom programming. We did a lot of promotion around 211, which gave older adults information. Communication is huge all the time, but the pandemic made it even more so.Low-income seniors don't have Wi-Fi access. They can't afford it, in many cases. They're living in the community. To me, one of the biggest hits, and we have to remember that, is that 93% of older adults are living in the community and aging in place, and they're connecting to centres if they have the money for the device and Wi-Fi—COVID-19Information disseminationPandemicSenior citizensWireless communicationRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1605)[English]That's if they have access to the Internet.Mr. Séguin, quickly, did your organization's study on the impact of COVID reveal commonalities among your membership on how the pandemic impacted their mental health and well-being?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityWireless communicationConnieNewmanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[Translation]Please answer briefly.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1605)[Translation]The biggest problem has been the confinement and isolation of seniors, who haven't seen their relatives, caregivers and families. That has had a major impact on us in Quebec, at both the CHSLDs, the residential and long-term care centres, and seniors' residences.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you, Ms. Falk.Next we will go to Ms. Young, please, for six minutes.SergeSéguinKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young (London West, Lib.): (1605)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you very much to our witnesses today. There was a lot of good information.Ms. Newman, I want to go back to you.You just started, near the end of your presentation, to talk about ageism. We know that it's a long-standing issue that we've had to deal with. In your opinion, what are the best ways to counter ageism and promote age-friendly communities?Age-friendly communitiesAgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1610)[English] That's a tough one, because ageism starts with me in part. We're all aging, but sometimes we forget that, and I think there has to be a concerted effort by those of us who are older to not use—and I get caught—the idea that it starts with, which is I have gray hair; I'm getting old and the bones are getting rickety. It also starts with businesses that are promoting frailty. Not all seniors are frail. We have policies around ageism at all three levels of government. Just because I'm 73, why should I be treated differently from how a 40-year-old is treated? That's something governments need to look at. We've heard during COVID that some doctors in ICU units were very concerned about having to make the decision about who gets the ventilator—a 40-year-old or an 80-year-old. It is terrible to put anybody in that position. I'll stop there. Age-friendly communitiesAgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1610)[English]That's a very good point, and it's tragic when those decisions are made.You have maybe considered, if I can say that, intergenerational initiatives. Are those something you think is really key here? Do we need to see more of them?Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1610)[English]Absolutely. When I think about age-friendly communities, there is no age for those. They are birth to the end of life, and if a community of, say, 800 is connected through intergenerational activities, through community events, we can do that by districts within a city. That's one of the principles we're pushing in Manitoba as we move forward: getting community stakeholders to connect with each other to see about community events and bringing everybody together. Some of our first nations are very good at that, and it's cross-generational. We have age silos in policy, in government and in the school system. Those don't help when we get hit with a pandemic. They counteract age-friendliness. Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1610)[English]At the beginning you mentioned that you cared for three COVID survivors, so I take it the three of them had COVID. COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1610)[English]No. One had COVID. COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1610)[English]What did you learn from that experience that would help us as we go forward, as far as how seniors with COVID are treated?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1610)[English]For me, it goes back to communication, and I'm a communicator. I'm a communicator with all three of those housing places, those homes, and the moment I got the call that she had tested positive, the communication became paramount to our ensuring her quality of life. I can't stress that enough.I've been fortunate. I'm tech savvy and I'm on Zoom meetings every day, sometimes twice a day. With personal care homes, we need to find a way, first, to ensure that they have Wi-Fi access. I'm starting to nag now, but if a personal care home has Wi-Fi access, that is part of the solution. It's not the paramount one. For one of my friends in a personal care home, we ended up buying special Shaw Internet cable access for his room to ensure he could read The Globe and Mail and The New York Times online. When we think about that and his quality of life, he's stuck in there and his health got him there. I think of other people in there. He's fortunate that he has family. As decision-makers, we all need to remember that there are many older adults who don't have family living in their community, and that's why I have three of them who are not family but friends. Broadband Internet servicesCare for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWireless communicationKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1615)[English] A good friend you are, and thank you so much.Mr. Chair, do I have any more time?ConnieNewmanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]You don't have enough for a question and an answer. If you want to make a closing observation, there might be time for that.KateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1615)[English]I just want to thank both of the witnesses for the fact that you're working so closely with seniors. I really thank you for what you're doing and what you're able to tell us to help us with this report.Thank you again.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you, Ms. Young.[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.KateYoungLondon WestLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): (1615)[Translation]Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.Greetings as well to the witnesses, Mr. Séguin and Ms. Newman, and thanks to them for their testimony.My question is for Mr. Séguin. We're quite familiar with the AQDR. We're aware of its influence in Quebec, where it operates in virtually all regions, including my own, the Laurentians.Mr. Séguin, you talked about the survey conducted in 2020. You had the time to tell us about your recommendation that a public investigation for seniors be conducted in Quebec. However, I'd like to hear more about the impoverishment of seniors in your other recommendations and your survey.As you know, the government has decided to take action and increase old age security benefits for seniors 75 and over starting in 2022. According to the testimony we've heard as members, seniors are still furious. We feel there's no justification for discriminating based on age.Do you have any recommendations or a specific opinion on this issue?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1615)[Translation]We discussed that when we met with people from the office of the federal Minister of Seniors, and we asked them why the increase applied solely to seniors 75 and over. They implied that it was because people 65 to 74 years of age were financially better off.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1615)[Translation]Do you agree with that?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1615)[Translation]That's a false impression, at least for Quebec. I don't know how it is in the rest of Canada, but statistics in Quebec show that 60% of those 65 and over have incomes of less than $30,000. Consequently, it's a misconception to think that 65‑year-olds are better off than 75‑year-olds, at least in Quebec.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1615)[Translation]In addition, I have to tell you I also tried to find conclusive data backing that up. The figures you cite for Quebec aren't far off those we received in writing yesterday. We learned, for example, that 59% of people 75 years and over have incomes of less than $30,000, compared to 50% for those 65 to 74.So what's the reason for discriminating against a 65‑year-old relative to a 75‑year-old who earns the same amount?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1615)[Translation]There's one statistic that shouldn't be overlooked: 52% of workers in Quebec don't have an employer pension plan. Some of them may be able to put money into an RRSP or a TFSA to create their own pension plan, but 52% is a lot. Not everyone works for the Quebec or federal government. Not everyone works for a school board or in the health and social services system, where you can join a good government pension plan.In my board meetings, I often remind directors that we can't just consider people who have an employer or government pension plan. We also have to think of the 52% of workers who don't have a pension.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1620)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Séguin, as you know, the National Assembly of Quebec is unanimously seeking health transfers equal to 35% of health spending from the federal government. We don't need additional national standards in Quebec; we need additional funding to deliver necessary resources, particularly for seniors.Do you have a position on that?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1620)[Translation]We don't really see ourselves as opposing the federal government, but we want the funding allocated to Quebec for those expenditures actually to be used to fund the services that are delivered, particularly in home care and home support.When the Liberal government was in power and Dr. Barrette was minister of health and social services, all services were reorganized and home care services were changed. An employee used to be able to go and provide a service to a senior at that person's home and to provide a subsequent service there as well. Now everything's calculated. An employee provides a single service, and if the senior needs another service, he or she must request it. However, why pay three or four employees to provide different services when you can have a single person do it all and avoid spending a lot of money doing it?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1620)[Translation]Did your survey address home support for seniors? We've discussed it at length in committee. The home support issue obviously became more pressing for seniors during COVID‑19.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1620)[Translation]We've seen that many more seniors in English Canada stay at home, whereas more Quebec seniors live in CHSLDs or RPAs, the private seniors' residences.We've been privatizing home care services for some years now by transferring them to private seniors' residences. There have also been cuts to home care services. So let's invest in care because people want to stay in their homes.Of course, some people in their 60s really like RPAs. Once their children grow up, leave home, marry or settle in another region to pursue their education, for example, parents find themselves alone in a large house. So they decide to sell and move to paradise, to an RPA.At the start of the pandemic, however, you would have thought RPAs were prisons that residents couldn't escape. Once they started going out for a little air, many residents decided to move and go back to living in private accommodation because they felt they were losing their independence in an RPA during an event like that.So a change is under way. I can't give you the exact figures, but this is an emerging trend in Quebec. When a promoter building a new seniors' residence has to start advertising and going door to door, that means the option of renting in an RPA is becoming less appealing.COVID-19Home care servicesLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Séguin and Ms. Chabot.[English]Next we have Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.SergeSéguinLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): (1620)[English]Thank you so much, Chair. My first question is for a fellow Manitoban, Connie Newman. Thank you so much for your testimony so far. It's so nice to have you in committee today.My first question relates to public ownership. I'm wondering if you feel that Wi-Fi should be a publicly owned utility, something that's deemed as essential for everyone as water, for example, as a public utility. I ask that because you spoke a lot about Wi-Fi and the fact that many seniors don't have access to Wi-Fi. Actually, I wanted to mention article 27 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states, “Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.”One of the concerns I've had in Winnipeg Centre for many seniors is that because they can't afford the Internet, they've been very isolated as a result of not having access, even if they have the skills and know how to use computers and iPhones. Do you feel it should be a public utility?Broadband Internet servicesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWireless communicationSeanCaseyCharlottetownConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1625)[English]I think that might be a loaded question.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English]It is a bit of a loaded question. I'm not going to lie.ConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1625)[English]Personally, I believe it should. We're in the new age. We can't be doing things that we did 30 years ago and have policy and rules from 30 years ago. We need to get with the times, and the times and COVID showed us that Internet access is a utility. Should it be common out there? Yes. Now, would some of my political friends of all stripes agree with me? Probably not. That's where the “loaded” comes in.To my witness friend from Quebec, a lot of what he was saying is so very true in Manitoba too. People who had reasonable incomes through COVID may survive through it all, but those who did not.... Housing was an issue. Transportation is an issue. The day when I have to think twice about whether I'm paying for the pills that some doctor has prescribed for me, or paying for Internet and those kinds of things, there's a real problem. It's a societal problem, and it's a political problem. You can put me on a soapbox doing this.Broadband Internet servicesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWireless communicationLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English] Well, I'm going to keep you on your soapbox, because I agree with what you're saying.One of the things I've been pushing for is a guaranteed livable basic income. We have income guarantees; for example, OAS is an income guarantee. I'm arguing that it's not livable, for the very reasons you're talking about. I'm pushing for a guaranteed livable basic income for all, including for seniors, in addition to current and future government programs and supports. For example, if the pharmacare bill that our party put forward passed, it would be in addition to having full coverage for medicine.Do you think a guaranteed livable basic income would make a difference for seniors, lifting them out of poverty?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1625)[English]It's not only seniors. When we look at the homelessness that's happening today because of COVID, and the number of older adults who are homeless because of COVID, guaranteed income of some sort should help to negate that.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English]Yes, I agree. Going beyond just guaranteed income, I think we need to make sure that it's livable and accounts for regional differences as well.Getting back to income, in the 2021 budget implementation bill, the government proposed providing a one-time payment of $500 in August 2021 to OAS for those 75 years of age or older, and increasing OAS for individuals 75 years of age or older by 10% as of July 2022.My particular concern relates to women. Many women don't have pensions, because they worked their whole life, for example, as caregivers. Many women are living in poverty as they age.To both of you, do you have an idea as to why the government has excluded seniors aged 65 to 74 from an increase to OAS?Maybe I can put that question to you, Mr. Séguin. COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsConnieNewmanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[Translation]I would ask you to answer the question briefly, Mr. Séguin.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1625)[Translation]Of course.We'd really like to know. The only answer we've received is that 65‑year-olds are better off than 75‑year-olds.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Séguin.[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.Next we're going to go to Mr. Tochor, please, for five minutes.SergeSéguinCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor (Saskatoon—University, CPC): (1630)[English]Thank you very much.Thank you to our witnesses.We were talking about the unfairness of some of the decisions about age 75, making the cut-off lower, or not having a cut-off for seniors, which I would agree with. It is unfair.At the start of the pandemic, we knew that seniors were going to be the unfortunate target of this virus. After we turn the corner and in the years to come, we'll look back at some of the decisions we made. It's not about pointing fingers, but we should have bubble-wrapped our seniors. The seniors were the ones who were going to be affected the most by this virus. I don't think we've done enough for seniors.Ms. Newman, you remind me of my mom, a lot. I appreciate your testimony so much, with your straight-shooter demeanour. I very much appreciate it. I'm from Saskatoon. I've spent a fair bit of time in Winnipeg. I'm a prairie boy, as well. Some of the struggles we have out here are probably very similar to those in Manitoba.Can you expand a bit on your awareness of the differences in care during this pandemic in rural Manitoba versus in Winnipeg, where I believe you live?COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1630)[English] There is a big difference. Between access to care in urban Winnipeg, Regina or Saskatoon versus access in rural areas, the difference is like night and day. That's why I'm a real proponent of our support coordinators, who are all over this province. We have more than 103 of them in various communities throughout the province. They're the go-to; they're the people who have a group of seniors, and because they're in rural Manitoba, everybody knows everybody else. They knew to go and check on Mrs. Smith, Mr. Jones, etc. The biggest thing is, when we went into shutdown.... Home care has a set of rules. There are many people in rural and remote Manitoba who have no family. First, they were left in destitute situations, partly because nobody knew. Second, they were afraid, because they weren't all that healthy to begin with. How do they get to testing? How do they get to their vaccines? If it weren't for our support coordinators out there, I'm not sure that we would be where we are today with vaccinations. There's still a problem there, and I need to deal with it after I finish with this. It goes back to communication and who knows what out there. To me, it's a big one.COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1630)[English]You spoke about vaccines and that's the next thing you're turning to. I think it has been well documented that delaying second doses is prolonging the restrictions out there. Have you heard any stories from Manitoba on the deliveries of vaccines? We all get that it's delayed getting into Canada, but are there any creative programs running right now in Manitoba to get seniors vaccinated in rural or urban areas that you can share with the committee?COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1630)[English]The short answer is no. I don't know that there are any creative programs, because what I hear is when people get into trouble. They will phone me and say, “Connie, what do I do about...?” or “Mrs. Smith is living in a.... How does she get to a vaccine site?” I communicate and I connect, so I know which button to push to solve that problem. We all—including everybody on this line—need to understand that as we age, we become more isolated. Our friends pass away; we're disconnected; family is not there and we don't know who to call. One of the friends I referred to has a son in New Zealand, so every now and then I get the phone call because his mother is in a personal care home. When you go to rural Manitoba, the need for community connection is huge. We know that if a small town in Manitoba is having a fair, everybody is there. Everybody knows each other. That same thing happens across Canada. We haven't done fairs and events. My favourite, even in Winnipeg or if you go to rural Manitoba, is to ask, “Where are all the trucks?” All the trucks will be by the coffee shop, and that's where communication happens. That set of trucks takes care of everybody, and that is sadly missing. Here we go again: We don't have Wi-fi to connect those people when they can't connect themselves.COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1635)[English]Yes. I will just briefly wrap up, Mr. Chair, I know I'm running out of time.As a Conservative, I support equal access to the Internet, and you'd find an ally in me as an MP for that. The Blue Bombers are only going to be Grey Cup champs for a few more months, so enjoy that.ConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1635)[English]Oh, oh! That's what you think.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1635)[English]Yes.ConnieNewmanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Tochor.Next is Mr. Dong, please, for five minutes.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.): (1635)[English]Thank you very much, Chair.I want to thank both panellists for spending time with us this afternoon and offering us great insights and perspectives on the challenges that lie in front of us right now.First of all, I absolutely agree with you that access to the Internet is essential. We've seen our senior population utilize that technology to stay connected with the world, with the outside, with the community and with their loved ones.I have a story to share myself. Both my parents are turning 75, and my mom has always been afraid of technology. With the advancements, she had a minimal interest in digital technology. However, I've seen her evolve, and she's now using different apps. Other than out of necessity, much of that has been influenced by her friends. Broadband Internet servicesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1635)[English] Yes.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1635)[English]She's a very active member of her local community centre, and they did morning exercises every day before the pandemic hit. They find ways to connect, so access to the Internet is absolutely essential. I agree with you.The other thing I want to share with you is that I represent a Toronto riding, North York. It's in Toronto, but it's a very settled, mature community. You have various seniors groups coming together to support each other. I've seen a lot of inspiring leadership coming out of facing the challenges.I can say that I personally helped three groups in their applications by giving them some guidance and information about the new horizons program, which has seen a huge increase during the pandemic. They took advantage of it. They brought those classes online—just like you said—keeping the recreational activities high.To both panellists, what's your experience with or what have you heard about communities using the new horizons program during the pandemic?We'll start with Monsieur Séguin. He's been quite quiet for some time.Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensConnieNewmanSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1635)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Dong.I couldn't say whether that program's been used. There's usually a call for projects, but we haven't seen any in Quebec during the pandemic. Normally, when the federal government issues a call for projects for seniors, a lot of Quebec agencies submit proposals. Even our association has previously submitted proposals to the federal government to develop various activities for seniors.I don't know the situation in other provinces, but we were confined and we teleworked in Quebec during the pandemic. It was more difficult because we couldn't see each other. Our sections are nevertheless still working with seniors by telephone or videoconference.As Ms. Newman said, the major problem is a lack of Internet access for seniors in all regions of Canada. While we don't have that problem in urban centres, in rural regions, either there's no Internet or it's low-speed access, which is hardly any better. It's better not have any access at all than to have low-speed access. The telecommunications companies, Bell and others, don't want to expand the network because it costs too much and isn't profitable.Age-friendly communitiesBroadband Internet servicesCOVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Séguin.[English]I want to get Ms. Newman's feedback on the new horizons program.Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensSergeSéguinConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1640)[English]“Keep them coming” is the short answer.Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1640)[English]I love that.ConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1640)[English]I've been part of a team on an older Winnipeggers' social engagement project for five years now in new horizons. It's been excellent in bringing five organizations together to collaborate and work together for low-income seniors in Winnipeg. We also received, in this last call, money for an age-friendly resource team on how to mobilize communities on communication.I would say to keep them coming. My big thing is that you want older adults to fill them in and to be part of it. It's a good thing that I'm an older adult and can fill them in on behalf of our team. Some groups don't have that expertise, and it's a difficult application to fill out.Age-friendly communitiesCOVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Thank you, Ms. Newman and Mr. Dong.[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.ConnieNewmanLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm going to ask a quick question, then give both witnesses a chance to answer it.We're obviously conducting this study on seniors in order to take stock of the situation. We know that seniors were hit hard by the pandemic, from financial, health and social standpoints. As parliamentarians, we're trying to determine what programs should be enhanced and what solutions put forward so we can considerably improve the living conditions of our seniors.I'll let you answer that, Mr. Séguin.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1640)[Translation]It would be very helpful if the federal government, regardless of the party in power, could understand that 65‑year-olds are in as much financial difficulty as 75‑year-olds. I don't see why seniors should be divided into two citizen classes.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1640)[Translation]Thank you.Ms. Newman, I heard your remarks about the Internet. You're right. In 2021, there are still Internet access problems in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada, in both rural and urban areas.Broadband Internet servicesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSergeSéguinConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1640)[English] In terms of solutions, all three levels of government need to work together to get the Internet and Wi-Fi aspect across this country solved. To me, from a Government of Canada point of view, human rights, equal aspects and equal access to information are paramount. All three levels of government have a variety of programs looking after a variety of ages, but if we don't know about them, how do we access them? To me, that's huge.Broadband Internet servicesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Thank you, Ms. Newman.[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English]Ms. Gazan, you have two and a half minutes, please.ConnieNewmanLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1640)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.I agree with Madam Newman that the new horizons for seniors program certainly is of benefit to my riding.Not to be negative, but talking about something that isn't of benefit, I was asking you, Monsieur Séguin, about the pension, and I know you didn't have enough time to answer. What are your thoughts on that? Do you have any ideas on why the government has excluded seniors aged 65 to 74 from the increase in OAS? I have concerns, because we know that many seniors live in poverty in this country. It's no different from 65 to 74 and older. COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1645)[Translation]We're just as concerned as you are, Ms. Gazan. We would have liked to hear a valid reason from the minister's representatives. We have a lot of questions. I find it hard to see how you can put people 65 and over in a separate category, especially when, as I mentioned, 60% of them have annual incomes of less than $30,000. Two retired economists sit on AQDR's income and taxation committee. They've determined how much a senior has to pay to live in an urban area in Quebec. In Montreal, for example, a senior needs $28,000 to live. Do you think the federal and Quebec old age security pensions are enough for a senior to be able to live in Montreal? The total maximum amount of those pensions is far less than $20,000; it's $18,000. So that person is $10,000 short of being able to live in Montreal.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.SergeSéguinLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1645)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Do you want to offer a couple of comments on that, Ms. Newman? Go ahead.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreConnieNewmanConnieNewmanConnie-NewmanInterventionMs. Connie Newman: (1645)[English]We all have to remember—in support of Serge over there—that when we start to open up, we need to look at who's working during the day at the low-income jobs. At Tim Hortons, Walmart and some of the other big box stores, a lot of those are people who have to work. They don't get enough dollars through their pension, or they don't have a retirement pension plan. We see that in Manitoba. I'm sure the same thing exists in Montreal, Quebec. Look around. It doesn't take much to figure out. They were also hit the hardest, because all those jobs disappeared when we went into shutdown.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English] Thank you, Ms. Newman.Mr. Vis is next, please, for five minutes.ConnieNewmanBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC): (1645)[English]Mr. Chair, I was under the impression that after one hour we were going to move to clause-by-clause.SeanCaseyCharlottetownStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon (Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, Lib.): (1645)[English] I can use the time if you don't want to use it, Mr. Chair.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Okay.Mr. Vis, we have the full two hours, so I was going to finish out this second round. It appears that the Liberals are keen to ask another round of questions.I'll cede the floor to you or one of your colleagues for five minutes.StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1645)[English]I'll pass on my time. Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Okay.Does anyone else on the Conservative side have questions for the panel?Ms. Gazan? You're with the NDP.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1645)[English]I know, but I'm just saying that if nobody else wants it, I would gladly ask many questions.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Okay. Ms. Falk, I see that your hand is up. Go ahead, for five minutes.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1645)[English]Wonderful. Thank you very much.I would like to follow up with you, Mr. Séguin. You had a very short amount of time to respond to my question, which was in regard to your membership and how the pandemic has impacted their mental health and well-being. I'm just wondering if you have anything further to add to that.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1645)[Translation]Yes, Ms. Falk, the pandemic was very difficult for Quebec seniors. They suffered enormously from the confinement. There was a social split, if I can use this term even though I know it's not the right one. In other words, they were kept alone and isolated from their families. There may have been images like these shown elsewhere in Canada but in Quebec, on television they were showing people crying and trying to speak through a window. Often, the senior on the other side of the window did not understand what was happening. So it was very difficult for seniors. Even those who were mentally well balanced suffered. Some even decided to move out of their residences so they would never have to experience anything like it again.Our association has been around for 42 years, but the CHSLDs and RPAs date from the 1960s and 1970s. We've been complaining for a long time about the fact that services are inadequate, that there is not enough staff to care for the elderly, and that the government claims they've heard our complaints. Nevertheless, it would seem that it took a pandemic for them to really become aware of what was happening, because suddenly the media started saying just how terrible and awful things were. And yet our organization has been there for 42 years and has for a long time been condemning these situations without anyone listening. All of a sudden, because of the pandemic, it's as if it were something brand new and people began to react. In any event, it's time for us to do something. We'd better be ready in case there's another pandemic, because we think it could be worse than the one we've just been through.Does that answer your question, Ms. Falk?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1650)[English]Yes, for sure, and I think you bring up a good point too. For those seniors who may have Alzheimer's or dementia, just that transition when everything went into lockdown mid-March 2020— not knowing what's going on, not being able to see those who are familiar, routines being changed—is detrimental to not only the physical health of the individual but also their mental and emotional health, which I think is so important to recognize through all of this.I'm just wondering, too, did the needs or priorities of your membership change during the pandemic?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1650)[Translation]According to our survey, seniors are demanding more services in residences. They want more autonomy and they want services that meet their expectations. They want to be listened to. They no longer want to be treated like children.We often receive complaints from people in residences, and you'd swear sometimes that our seniors are in prison. Recently on the news, a case was reported about how two seniors were prevented from leaving their residence because of an outbreak. They even called in Quebec's provincial police to prevent them from leaving. Calls had to be made to Quebec's health and social services ministry asking them to intervene. They were finally allowed to leave the residence and stay with their loved ones until the outbreak was over.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1650)[English] Yes, and I think, too, that it's just so important to recognize autonomy. Just because you're aging and getting older doesn't mean that you want to give your autonomy away.I think it's so important, when it comes to aging in place, that we recognize that it's not just where you live. It's shovelling the snow, food preparation and house cleaning. There are so many other aspects to making sure Canadians can age in place safely and healthily.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSergeSéguinSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you, Mrs. Falk.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1650)[Translation]If I may, Mr. Chair, I would like to reiterate Ms. Newman's comments. Seniors living in rural areas often lose their autonomy more quickly because their relatives live in cities that are not anywhere near them. Seniors live alone in their home or in a seniors residence. They have no access to the Internet and are left on their own.We'll see what happens after the pandemic, but based on current Quebec statistics, 50% of people living in a CHSLD are never visited by their relatives or friends. Of the remaining 50%, only 25% receive occasional visits, at times like Christmas, Mother's Day or Easter. The farther apart they are without any family members nearby, the more isolated and less autonomous they become.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Séguin.[English]I see your hand up, Ms. Newman, but we're well past time for this round. However, we have one more person who will pose questions, so hopefully you'll be able to get your point across.[Translation]Mr. Lauzon now, for five minutes.SergeSéguinStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1655)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to thank both witnesses for their remarks and for being here today.[Translation]I'll begin with Mr. Séguin.The Premier of Quebec and the Prime Minister of Canada jointly announced some good news, and that is that in Quebec, everyone is going to have access to affordable high-speed Internet. Are you aware of this? If so, have you told the members of your association that by September 2022, everyone will be connected to the Internet, including people living in rural areas.Broadband Internet servicesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1655)[Translation]I'm sorry, Mr. Lauzon, but we haven't heard about that. Even if we had, it wouldn't have changed much. So many promises are made in politics that sometimes we wonder what's really happening. I'm not trying to be sarcastic and not aiming at any particular political party; I'm not interested in playing politics. What I'm interested in is everyday realities. For example, Quebec promised us 15,000 social housing units not so long ago, and we're still waiting for them.If it ever happens, then so much the better. I think that the seniors who live in rural areas, far away from cities, are those who would benefit the most, because they could stay in touch with their loved ones.Broadband Internet servicesCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1655)[Translation]Right. I have a lot more I could say about this, but will continue on another subject.Your organization has done some very important work. We had an opportunity to meet, Mr. Séguin. I was with the minister when we met. We are well aware that you had many challenges to deal with during the pandemic. In the midst of it, we came to the assistance of the most vulnerable seniors of all ages by paying out $1,500 per senior couple. We discussed this.Was this money helpful to the seniors you represent during the pandemic?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1655)[Translation]Unfortunately, we didn't ask them about that in the most recent survey we conducted of members of our association in the spring. We are now analyzing the results of the survey. We have a number of figures to analyze, because the survey was divided into several parts.At the moment, we're getting a lot of calls and emails about the increase in Old Age Security beginning at 75 years of age. Those aged 65 to 74 are very unhappy and have the impression they are being overlooked by the federal government.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1655)[Translation]I understand.You say that the only answer you received at the meeting I attended was that 65 year-old seniors had more money than those who were 75 years old.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1655)[Translation]Yes.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1655)[Translation]That's what you understood. However, we also mentioned that according to our studies, people aged 75 years and over spent more time in hospital and needed an increasing amount of health care. Do you remember that part? That's what our statistics show. The minister also told you that 57% of seniors 75 years of age and over were women and that almost half of them were windows. Do you remember that as well? Those are the statistics that the minister reported at the meeting.You also said that you were in favour of this 10% increase for seniors 75 years of age and over, but that you would have liked to see it extended. Do you remember the minister presenting these figures to you? COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1655)[Translation]It's possible. I don't remember everything that we discussed, but I know that the data don't necessarily represent Quebec. I understand that you have some data, but it doesn't necessarily reflect our perception of things.In fact, this increase is welcomed by people 75 years and older. We won't be asking you to take these funds away from them. However, allow me to repeat that you shouldn't have abandoned those in the 65 to 74 age group because it creates a separate category of seniors. We believe that they all deserve to receive some of what you made available to seniors.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1700)[Translation]I see that the time is going by very quickly, and so would like to return to another subject.Seniors were the focus of the programs that your organization supported. Have you noticed which services in particular, in the Quebec community you represent, were used most by seniors since the beginning of the pandemic?Does your organization have trouble ensuring that services meet the needs of seniors and that it is easy for all of them to gain access?How did the organizations you are familiar with ensure that the services were appropriate and accessible?COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSergeSéguinSerge-SéguinInterventionMr. Serge Séguin: (1700)[Translation]Access to health care and social services was definitely difficult during the pandemic. It was hard to make a doctor's appointment. All kinds of minor and major operations that had been scheduled, such as hip replacements or knee problems, were postponed. Elderly people often have conditions like these. The specialists have been saying that delays in all of these operations are going to have a harmful impact on people's health.COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1700)[Translation]I'd like to ask one last question.SergeSéguinSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[Translation]I'm sorry, but that's all the time we have.Thank you very much, Mr. Séguin and Ms. Newman. We are extremely grateful for your testimony and for being here today, and also for the work you are doing in your respective provinces and communities.[English] To both of you, we very much appreciate your being here. Thanks for being so generous with your time and advice, and for the excellent work you're doing in your communities. It will be of great assistance to us in our work.We are now going to suspend, colleagues, because we have a couple of people joining us for the clause-by-clause examination.To both of our witnesses, you're welcome to stay, but you're free to leave. Thank you so much for being with us today.The committee stands suspended.(1700)(1700)StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]I call the meeting back to order.Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, May 26, 2021, the committee will resume its consideration of Bill C-265, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine).Before we begin clause-by-clause consideration, I would like to welcome Benoit Cadieux from the special benefits, employment insurance policy, skills and employment branch of the Department of Employment and Social Development, who is available as a resource to us to answer any policy-related questions in the context of the bill. I'm also pleased that we have with us Philippe Méla, legislative clerk, for any legislative, technical or legal matters that may arise.With that, we will proceed with clause-by-clause. Colleagues, please use the “raise hand” function to be recognized.Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of the short title and the preamble are postponed until the end. I therefore call clause 2.(On clause 2)The Chair: Ms. Dancho.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Clause-by-clause studyEmployment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC): (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of quick things.I want to thank the Bloc Québécois for bringing this bill forward. I think it signifies a real step forward in EI benefits for those who really need them.I wanted to make a comment. My Conservative colleagues and I, on this committee and in caucus at large, have been working quite hard internally to put forward a policy, which was resoundingly adopted at our recent policy convention, to extend sickness benefits to 52 weeks. We're taking the perspective that in Canada, having a full year to have sickness benefits, whether you're dealing with a significant illness or a horrific injury that you need rehabilitation for, really sends a very clear message on our special benefits in this country and I think would mean a lot to all Canadians who really need that time. There's something about a full year, I think, that is quite important. It's something we can really hang our hats on and say we've accomplished as lawmakers.For that reason, I'd like to move that Bill C-265 in clause 2 be amended by replacing line 2 on page 2 with the following: “tine is 52”. The full amended clause would read: “because of a prescribed illness, injury or quarantine is 52”. Mr. Chair, that's my amendment.Amendments and subamendmentsC-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English] Thank you, Ms. Dancho.Clause 2 of Bill C-265 seeks to amend paragraph 12(3)(c) of the Employment Insurance Act, to increase from 15 to 50 the maximum number of weeks for which benefits may be paid because of illness, injury or quarantine. The amendment attempts to extend the benefits to 52 weeks.House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states the following at page 772:Since an amendment may not infringe upon the financial initiative of the Crown, it is inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.In the opinion of the chair, the amendment proposes an extended period of benefits, which imposes a charge on the public treasury. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.Madame Chabot.Amendments and subamendmentsC-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Decisions of Committee ChairsEmployment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1705)[Translation]Ms. Dancho moved her amendment and you ruled on it, Mr. Chair. However, I had my hand up first, and that wasn't what I wanted to comment on, but rather the bill itself. I would like to point out that the proposed amendments to the Employment Insurance Act, in clauses 2 and 3 of the bill, are perfectly consistent with a motion that was adopted in the House of Commons in February of last year. I would also like to thank all of the opposition parties for having agreed to the principle that the maximum number of weeks for benefits be increased to 50. That is precisely the intent of Bill C‑265, which we have supported throughout the work of the House, and which is now before our committee.We received two opinions from the Parliamentary Budget Officer on the matter of the 50 weeks and associated costs. You'll recall that in our committee's study of employment insurance, there was consensus on 50 weeks among the witnesses who came to offer solutions on how to enhance the employment insurance system.I also appreciate all the work that was done by members of the Conservative Party and for their proposal of a 52‑week benefit period. I believe this came up during their virtual convention. It's a significant proposal. It clearly demonstrates Conservative support for workers who are sick. The message of this bill is that 15 weeks is not enough. Even a benefit period of 26 weeks does not go far enough, because 77% of workers would be left out.The bill being studied by the committee proposes increasing the benefit to 50 weeks, in compliance with everything that has been put forward from the outset. That's what we want to see adopted and we are sticking to our position.Mr. Chair, you have just ruled that the amendment is inadmissible, for the reasons you gave us. I would like to ask you what legal opinion your decision is based on.Beyond these considerations, I would ask all of my colleagues to debate amendments with the proposed 50 week period in mind, which is almost a year. It would certainly be consistent with the testimony we heard on Tuesday and with other testimony that we may have heard.Thank you.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)C-265, An Act to ensure secure, adequate, accessible and affordable housing for CanadiansEmployment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English]Ms. Gazan, please go ahead.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1710)[English]Thank you, Chair. I want to echo my support for this amendment, and certainly what Madame Chabot indicated as well. I think we've had lots of testimony. I know you're the chair and you've made a ruling, but it's unfortunate that we weren't able to address this further in the committee.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English] Mr. Vaughan, please.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan (Spadina—Fort York, Lib.): (1710)[English]I listened with great interest as people dissected arbitrary numbers. Just so I understand, why is one advocacy position 50 and the other 52? What are the additional two weeks metricized on, beyond just the symmetry to the calendar?I'm also curious to understand the cost implications between the two, if Ms. Dancho has that estimate.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Ms. Dancho.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1710)[English]Thank you, Chair.I appreciate the remarks from Madam Chabot and the support from Madam Gazan. I'm glad to see that we can work together across partisan lines, towards a common good.Mr. Vaughan, I think you have really great questions. I would just say that the Bloc bill is very good at 50 weeks, but from our perspective and the work we've been doing internally with our party, it's just been 52. That one-year rounding out is a really nice symbolic gesture for those who really need the support. That's the motivation behind our amendment.The chair has ruled it inadmissible. I understand his ruling, and we won't be challenging the chair on this, but we do wish we could have made it 52 weeks.Again, we thank the Bloc for its work on this.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1710)[English]Did you model the cost differential? I'm just curious.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1710)[English]I'm not sure what the cost would be compared with 50 weeks. I would assume it would be a little more. From the testimony I've heard, and from the consultations we've done with our party, particularly in Quebec, a year sends really a strong signal that we support people who really need the recovery time. We stand by that 52-week period.Mr. Chair, are we allowed to debate an amendment that's not admissible?AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1710)[English]I was just curious.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1710)[English]Yes. I'm just wondering. I don't want to waste time. If it's not admissible, it's not admissible.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]I appreciate your remarks, Ms. Dancho. The advice you're giving me is the same as what I'm getting from the clerk by text.If there are any other interventions with respect to clause 2, we'll hear them now. Hearing none, does clause 2 carry?(Clause 2 agreed to)C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English] Is there any discussion with respect to clauses 3 and 4?I believe we have consensus.(Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to)The Chair: Shall the preamble carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Shall the short title carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Shall the title carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Shall the bill carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Shall the chair report the bill to the House?Some hon. members: Agreed.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English] We will go to Madam Chabot, please.SeanCaseyCharlottetownLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1715)[Translation]Colleagues, I am deeply moved. I'd like to thank you for all this work. We didn't do it for ourselves; we worked across partisan lines and did so on behalf of the workers we would like to help. I think that this bill will be very important going forward. I can't thank you enough for having taken part in the process that got us to where we are now.On another topic, since I didn't have the time to say so last time, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for the work done to prepare the report on the study of employment insurance, which was done diligently and rigorously under the sterling stewardship of our chair. I felt proud seeing it tabled in the House today. Moreover, Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank you for having told us when you were going to table the report in the House.I'd like to thank all my colleagues for having worked so collaboratively on all matters before this committee.And I'd like to thank you once again, Ms. Dancho. The next time, we will add another two weeks to the benefit period.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot, and congratulations.[English] Ms. Dancho, please.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1715)[English]Thank you, Madame Chabot, for those kind words. I want to echo what you said. It was great to see some collaboration today.I wanted to conclude with one question for our Liberal colleagues about whether they're aware if their government will be providing a royal recommendation so that this can become law. I think that would be great to know and a great way to end today's work.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]I don't know if anyone knows enough to respond to that at this stage. Are there any further interventions or is there any other business to come before the meeting?RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1715)[English]Mr. Chair, I would ask that perhaps the Liberal members get back to us next week, if we meet, about the royal recommendation, so that Madame Chabot and the rest of us can know whether this will have a chance to survive and be made into law.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]You can ask that, but I'm not sure that the royal recommendation is the prerogative of the people in this group. You can consider the question asked.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1715)[English]You have no idea how much more I want to know about what cabinet is up to.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[Translation]Ms. Chabot, please.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1715)[Translation]You are in a good position in terms of public relations, so we will rely on you, our Liberal Party colleagues, to get an answer to this excellent question about a royal recommendation. I know that we cannot, as a committee, adopt a motion that requires royal recommendation for the bill to become law, but, as was mentioned, I think that some forms of action might be possible.Can we expect the bill to be tabled very soon in the House? Is it in the realm of the possible, given the program? Can you give us a hint as to when this might be?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[Translation]I'll be ready to table it in the House Monday. If the bill meets all the requirements, I'll do it the next time I'm in the House.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1715)[Translation]Thank you. Excellent.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Is there any further business to come before the meeting?Is it the pleasure of the committee to adjourn the meeting? Excellent.Thank you very much, colleagues. Thank you, Mr. Cadieux and Mr. Méla, for your presence. I'm grateful we didn't have to work you any harder, but we certainly appreciate your being here.Have an excellent weekend, everyone. We'll see you back here on Tuesday.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1720)[English]Safe travels, Leah.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]We're adjourned.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.)): (1535)[English] I call this meeting to order.We will come back to Mr. Sansfaçon at the end of the opening remarks. Hopefully, by then, he will be technically equipped to deliver his remarksWelcome to meeting number 41 of the House of Commons Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, May 26, 2021, the committee will commence its consideration of Bill C-265, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act, regarding illness, injury or quarantine.I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions. Today we have with us Claude DeBellefeuille, the member for Salaberry—Suroît. We also have Chantal Renaud, as an individual; and Marie-Hélène Dubé, criminologist and founder of the 15 Weeks is not Enough campaign.[Translation]I hope we'll be able to welcome Louis Sansfaçon after the technical difficulties have been resolved.[English]Also, with the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada, we have with us Julie Kelndorfer, the director of government and community relations.For the benefit of our witnesses, I would like to make a few additional comments. Interpretation in this video conference is available. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, English or French.[Translation]Interpretation services are available. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either Floor, English or French. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mic should be on mute.We will start with Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Good afternoon, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. You have five minutes.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Salaberry—Suroît, BQ): (1540)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.It is with some emotion that I appear before you this afternoon. Even though this is my third term, this is the first time I have had the privilege of defending a bill in parliamentary committee. I feel very privileged to do so this afternoon. I want to welcome all the witnesses. I would like to extend my greetings to all the members of the parliamentary committee.You will understand that today I am primarily here to convince my dear Liberal colleagues to give royal recommendation to Bill C‑265. This bill was supported by the majority of the opposition parties in the House of Commons. Unfortunately, if it doesn't receive the royal recommendation of the Liberal government after committee study, my bill won't be able to proceed.Today, I hope to convince you that 15 weeks is clearly not enough, but 26 weeks isn't enough either. I will try to convince you that 50 weeks is what is needed to be compassionate and to ensure that vulnerable workers who have not chosen to be sick can count on the financial support of EI special sickness benefits for 50 weeks.The reason we're talking about 50 weeks is because several studies show that, on average, people need more than 26 weeks and others need more than 50 weeks. Some illnesses require an absence that goes beyond 15 weeks and 26 weeks. I'll give you a few examples. According to evidence‑based studies, it takes an average of 37 weeks to recover from colon cancer. If you are unfortunate enough to have rectal cancer, it can take up to 47 weeks. The cases are documented.Since the data are known and conclusive, I don't understand, and neither do the citizens of Quebec and Canada, why the government doesn't want to move forward with my bill and allow sick workers who are fighting a serious illness to obtain not 15 weeks or 26 weeks, but up to 50 weeks. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has told us that we can afford it. He has already released two studies on this issue, and he confirms, not surprisingly, that we can afford to provide these vulnerable workers with the protection and the tools they need to fight their illness with dignity in order to return to work and, more importantly, to maintain their employment relationship.Some employers have made it quite clear that increased premiums—either employers' or employees'—are, after all, reasonable. It could be offered to workers who cannot work temporarily because of illness and who need financial support to pay for their care and assisted medical transportation. These workers, who may have paid into the program all their lives, do not need the financial insecurity that the EI program currently creates by keeping special sickness benefits at 15 weeks.You will tell me—especially my Liberal colleagues—that the government promised in the budget to increase benefits to 26 weeks. We know that 26 weeks isn't enough. The data already clearly show that. Moreover, this increase to 26 weeks could be in place through order in council by 2022.I ask you to close your eyes and think about the people who are finishing their 15th week of benefits today, who have heard that they may receive 26 weeks of benefits, and to whom I will have to say that those 26 weeks won't be available right away. I'll have to tell them that the government hasn't provided for this increase in its budget in a binding way, which means that once the budget is approved and voted on through ways and means and through Bill C‑30, the government will have the discretion to wait until 2022 to implement this increase. I think this is playing with the hearts of people who are sick and want to fight the disease on a level playing field.We don't choose to be sick, and we don't choose our type of sickness. We cater to workers who have no coverage, no collective bargaining agreement or private health insurance plan.(1545)These people have often worked very hard in their lives. One day they get sick. It could be the person who works at your local convenience store and whom you have seen every morning for the past 10 years. She gets a little more than minimum wage, but not much more, and she doesn't have private health insurance. If she has rectal cancer and has to miss 47 weeks of work because of illness, she'll be paid for 15 weeks and receive 55% of her salary. Do you honestly think that a worker can live on 55% of their salary?It's hard enough for someone who knows they have a long struggle ahead of them and that recovery is necessary to [Technical difficulty—Editor] get back to work, but it becomes even harder if benefits end after 15 or 26 weeks.Today, we can say that, in total, about 150,000 people are dropped from the EI system each year. That's 411 new Émilie Sansfaçons a day who are struggling and are suddenly losing the financial support of EI special sickness benefits.You'll understand that my heart goes out to these workers. I've received a lot of calls and emails encouraging me to convince members of Parliament, especially my Liberal colleagues, to seek royal assent for Bill C‑265 and to listen to the 620,000 people who have signed Marie‑Hélène Dubé's petition. She's asking you to extend the duration of benefits to 50 weeks, because it's quite obvious that 15 or 26 weeks isn't enough.I am ready to answer questions, Mr. Chair.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)C-30, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 19, 2021 and other measuresEmployment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance premiumsEmployment insurance sickness benefitsMembers of ParliamentPrivate Members' BillsRecovery and healingSalaberry—SuroîtWorkersSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.We'll now go to Mrs. Renaud.Welcome, Mrs. Renaud. The floor is yours.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtChantalRenaudChantalRenaudChantal-RenaudInterventionMrs. Chantal Renaud (Communications Manager, As an Individual): (1545)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Good afternoon, everyone.First I want to thank you for this opportunity to testify regarding Bill C-265.I am a COVID long-hauler, one of nearly half a million Canadians now estimated to suffer or have suffered from the debilitating long-term effects of COVID-19. My nightmare began exactly 14 months ago today, on April 15, 2020, when I started experiencing crippling health issues, including severe difficulty breathing, postural tachycardia, exercise intolerance, post-exertion malaise and profound fatigue. Little did I know that the life-altering illness that would relentlessly plague me for the next 14 months and counting was only the beginning of a much bigger struggle. After two months of fighting the disease, my condition deteriorated to the point where I became completely bedridden for six weeks. Yes, at times I wholeheartedly believed that I would suffocate to death in my own bed. No longer being able to work was no reason for me to worry. I was able to focus on healing because I had disability insurance coverage through my employer. As expected, I received short-term disability benefits for the first 16 weeks of my leave, during which I had two failed attempts at returning to work. Despite that, my long-term disability claim was subsequently denied. That's when I applied for employment insurance sickness benefits.With my health not improving, I strongly suspected that 15 weeks' worth of benefits might not be enough to support me until I was able to return to work or until the lawsuit I filed against my insurance company was settled. I would soon be left with no income whatsoever. I would soon be left having to sell my house to survive. I understand that, for some people, a house is just a house, but for me it was by far my most important asset, one I had acquired through a lifetime of hard work, dedication and sacrifices.In an effort to raise elected officials' awareness about my financial struggles, my upcoming loss and the grim reality faced by other COVID long haulers across this country, I shared my story in the media earlier this year to no avail.The new owners took possession of my dream home three and a half weeks ago.What would 50 weeks' worth of EI sickness benefits have meant to me? I would be testifying from my dream home office right now. Sure, it would have been less than the income I should have received from my insurance company but enough to allow me to keep my house, to keep it until I was able to successfully return to work, until my lawsuit was settled or until the pandemic was sufficiently under control for me to safely rent out bedrooms in my house to make ends meet. It would have made all the difference. Since the vast majority of Canadians do not have disability insurance coverage, for many long-COVID sufferers, the financial problems have already been piling up for well over a year. Like me, they are having to exhaust their savings, cash in their RRSPs and sell their cars, homes and other assets to survive. In a country like Canada, that is simply not acceptable. While new government support programs have been created and others adapted to assist people whose revenue sources have been negatively impacted by the pandemic, COVID long-haulers have not only been ignored but discriminated against by not being made eligible for any of these programs.Let me ask you this: Why is it that in the true north, strong and free, a year and a half into a global pandemic, people who are sick are the only ones being left without the additional financial support they need to survive? I have financially contributed to this country for more than 32 years, and I should never have lost my house because I fell ill. No Canadian should ever have to experience that. You may not realize this, but by choosing to extend EI sickness benefits from 15 weeks to 50, you are providing sick and vulnerable Canadians with a lot more than just financial support. You are giving them peace of mind and the opportunity to start focusing on what matters most: recovering their health. You are gifting them with the fighting chance to heal so that they can return to their lives and to being contributing citizens. When it comes to EI sickness benefits, Canada can and must do better.Thank you. C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)COVID-19Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPandemicPrivate health insurancePrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you, Ms. Renaud.[Translation]The next speaker is Marie‑Hélène Dubé.Ms. Dubé, you have the floor.ChantalRenaudMarie-HélèneDubéMarie-HélèneDubéMarie-Hélène-DubéInterventionMrs. Marie-Hélène Dubé (Criminologist and Founder, 15 Weeks is not Enough Campaign, As an Individual): (1550)[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone.Thank you for welcoming me today. I'm pleased to be with you.I'm also very pleased to hear Mrs. Renaud talk about the long‑term impact of COVID‑19. I actually talked about it in my previous testimony here in April.Let me tell you a little about my story. After surviving cancer three times in five years, I launched my petition in 2009, which has gathered over 620,000 signatures, including over 500,000 signatures on paper from province to province. That petition has led to over 13 bills and many political promises. So you know that I've been advocating nationally for all this time to make things better. I'm proud to see that there are politicians, like Mrs. DeBellefeuille, who are working very hard on this. If we're here today to move a bill forward, at the same time, I find it inconceivable that this is the 13th bill since 2009.I would like to remind you that the Liberal Party, before it came to power, was one of the parties that lobbied hardest for extending benefits to 52 weeks. I worked with Denis Coderre on Bill C‑291. It's sad to see that once the party came to power, everything changed, unfortunately.In fact, it has been shown that it's possible to extend benefits to 50 weeks. Experts have always recommended this. All of a sudden it's announced that it will be 26 weeks. I find this reversal difficult to understand, because we have the means to do so. I had just such a meeting with Mr. Trudeau and Ms. Qualtrough in December 2019. At that time, it was made clear that the benefit period wouldn't be 26 weeks and that this would be inadequate. The government was to come back with another proposal. Mr. Sansfaçon will speak more about this later.The Parliamentary Budget Officer's report shows that this is possible. Almost 80% of people who exceed the benefit period need a minimum of 41 weeks of benefits. If we set a period of 26 weeks, many people will fall through the cracks. It took 50 years to get a possible increase.I think that as a country, Canada is missing the point. A 26‑week benefit period will mean that people will still be in people financial difficulty and end up in poverty. As Mrs. Renaud mentioned, these are people who have paid into the system all their lives.Long COVID‑19 is an emerging issue. It is said that the government has only helped 23% of those who are ill, but because of long COVID‑19 and all the complications that will follow, that percentage will decrease. There will still be many more sick people. It is not true that we can always operate with the support of temporary programs. That makes no sense. This problem illustrates something that has existed for many years.I've heard many stories of people losing their homes, their dignity, everything, because they were just a few weeks short of benefits to get by. Honestly, I still can't believe this whole situation.Canada is the only G7 country, other than the United States, to provide less than one year of benefits. All other countries provide between one and three years. We are the only country that gives such a low percentage, around 55%. Australia and the Netherlands offer two years of benefits. Hungary and even South Africa give one year of benefits.I don't understand why Canada isn't embarrassed to be called a dunce in social programs by the United Nations, or UN. What is going on in Canada? What is so different here?In the last budget discussions, I heard people say that if the benefit period was extended beyond 26 weeks, claimants would abuse it, take more leave or even not come back to work.We've been told that studies have been done on this. Where are they? Who did them? That's a good question, because they could never be found.If this were a problem, I think it would have been documented long ago by all the other countries that already have more sensible measures in place. Of the current 15 weeks of benefits, people use an average of 9.8. So, [Technical difficulty—Editor] I think we would have seen people stretch their sick leave out a long time ago.I would remind you that it's the doctor who grants sick leave and not the people themselves who grant leave. I don’t see what the basis is for saying that after 50 weeks of sickness benefits, people would be disengaged. I don’t think that after that period, given all the bills that have to be paid, a person would decide that they no longer need to go back to work because they would have gotten rich from it.(1555)I've dealt with cancer three times, with all the consequences it had and still has on my life today, and I know that people want to go back to work, whether they've had cancer or another disease. It's not just for the money, it's for their dignity. They want to take their place as active citizens. So I think it's terrible that people would think such things.I would also like to draw your attention to two other points that aren't discussed often enough.First, many people have to rely on social assistance and last‑resort programs because of this inadequate measure. By increasing the number of weeks of benefits to only 26, the number of people in this situation won't decrease much. It creates a significant shortfall. There are people who don't go back to work because of this, because they aren't able to cope. There is an intergenerational transmission of poverty. As you can see by looking at the chart provided in my brief, it is passed down a minimum of three to five generations. So for one family that ran out of money because of this and had to go on social assistance, you can expect to see 1,000 families living in poverty, with no traceable cause. That's not to mention all the extra costs that this creates and that we know about. It also creates all kinds of problems when it comes to health and social programs.Second, we end up with a lot of people who haven't only lost their dignity, but who no longer pay taxes. There is an incredible shortfall here. And, as I said, it overloads the health care system. Socio‑economic inequalities in health care impose a direct annual economic burden of at least $6.2 billion. It's true that it's not just people who are struggling because of the 15‑week sickness benefit shortfall, but it's part of the problem. It's a spinning wheel, and it ripples out everywhere. Nobody benefits from staying in that situation.There was a study done that showed that it's possible to increase the number of weeks of benefits further, and the statistics show that this is what should be done. So I don't understand this reversal, when the Liberals are now in power and have an opportunity to put in place measures that would be incredibly better suited to the 21st century. In 1971, when this law was put in place, people died of cancer. That was sad. Now, people survive it.Thank you for your attention.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)COVID-19Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsHealth care systemPandemicPovertyPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. Dubé. You'll have a chance to talk more about it during questions.Marie-HélèneDubéMarie-HélèneDubéMarie-HélèneDubéMarie-Hélène-DubéInterventionMrs. Marie-Hélène Dubé: (1600)[Translation]Thank you very much.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English] Next we have Ms. Kelndorfer from the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada.You have the floor.Marie-HélèneDubéJulieKelndorferJulieKelndorferJulie-KelndorferInterventionMs. Julie Kelndorfer (Director, Government and Community Relations, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada): (1600)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon. My name is Julie Kelndorfer, and I'm the director of government and community relations for the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada. I'm also one of the 90,000 Canadians who live with MS in Canada, a country with one of the highest rates of MS in the world.I'm pleased to present to your committee on Bill C-265, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act, regarding illness, injury or quarantine, and illustrate the important perspective of Canadians living with MS. Today's trying times resemble what it's like to live with MS every single day. Every day people with MS wake up to adversity and do everything in their power to persevere: the woman with progressive MS who struggles to button her shirt in the morning yet is determined to dance at her granddaughter's wedding, the high school athlete who ignores the tingling and numbness in his legs to rally his team to victory, the lawyer with blurred vision and foggy thoughts, the father struggling to say his child's name, the avid cyclist feeling her balance go. Canada has one of the highest rates of MS in the world. Canadians know that MS can be harsh, unfair, overwhelming, a disease that always takes away and never gives back, and always threatens to take again. MS impacts all Canadians, not only affected individuals but also their families.Let me start with a story. Imagine this for a moment. A 29-year old university graduate, wife and mother to a one-year-old son, who is starting out her career in the non-profit sector, walks into her doctor's office one day and walks out not knowing the journey that lies before her. Why? It is because she has just been diagnosed with MS. That woman was me 17 years ago. How would you react if you were told that you have an unpredictable, often disabling disease of the central nervous system affecting your brain and spinal cord, and they can't say what lies ahead? They tell you that you're one of 12 diagnosed with MS every day and that it happens to women three times more than men. The problem is that no one can tell you what, when and how severe will be the symptoms like those I have experienced: fatigue, pain, numbness, spasms, tremors, vertigo, weakness, to name a few. They can't tell you where they will happen. It depends on what part of the brain and spinal cord are affected, and this can vary greatly from person to person and from time to time in the same person. I left the doctor's office that day, went into my car, called my husband and cried, telling him that, whatever happened, I didn't want to live in long-term care. Why was that my reaction? It was because that was what I knew of MS at that time. My aunt had passed away when she was in her fifties with a progressive form of the disease. She could no longer move on her own and speak except to nod her head. She lived in a long-term care facility with individuals two and three decades older than her, and I was scared that was going to be me. I didn't realize there were others living with this disease who didn't have the progressive form like my aunt. They had what I had been diagnosed with, relapsing-remitting MS. This type of MS is characterized by unpredictable but clearly defined relapses during which new symptoms appear or existing ones get worse. In the period between relapses, recovery is complete or nearly complete to pre-relapse function—remission. Of people diagnosed with MS, 85% have this type, which is also referred to as an episodic disability. When I was diagnosed I worried about our family's financial security. My son was just a year old when I was diagnosed. We were just starting up. We had a mortgage, a car payment, student loans and other expenses. What would happen if I had a relapse and couldn't work full time and needed to work part time while recovering? Were there financial supports that could help me? What I learned and continue to learn more about every day, however, is that the current disability income and employment support programs were not designed with episodic disability in mind. Many support programs in Canada are designed to support persons with disabilities and are built with a binary switch—either you can work or you cannot work. There are not many people with episodic disabilities.Employment is a key factor in maintaining adequate income and reducing poverty. Research shows that people with MS have disproportionately high employment rates, given their educational and vocational histories, yet many people living with MS who want to work struggle to do so.(1605) Often the problem is one of flexibility, accommodation and a lack of understanding of episodic disability. It is critical that we move past the notion of work as a binary switch of you can work, which means no assistance, versus you can’t work, which means assistance. With more than 60% of people living with MS eventually reaching unemployment, it’s clear that more needs to be done to support those who live with episodic disabilities.Unfortunately, the EI sickness benefit, which was designed to address these very issues, has been virtually unchanged since the 1970s. To put this into context, it was set up at a time when smoking on planes was legal, bell-bottoms were king and universal medicare was just getting on its feet. The program provides insured employees up to 15 weeks of financial assistance if they can’t work for medical reasons, provided they’ve qualified with over 600 hours already worked. While it is an important safety net, it also has outdated design flaws, most notably that rigid “on or off” switch that doesn’t work for those who need a gradual workforce reintegration or those who live with episodic disabilities.For the 13 million Canadians identified in a 2015 report from the Institute for Research on Public Policy called “Leaving Some Behind: What Happens When Workers Get Sick” as not having short-term disability insurance, this means that at the end of 15 weeks they can either be recovered or receive nothing. The 2019 EI round table report noted that three of the four major parties recognized in their 2018 platforms that it’s time to extend the benefit from 15 weeks to more. We were so pleased to see the inclusion of the extension of EI sickness benefits in the [Technical difficulty—Editor] more Canadians supported by this benefit.In 2019, this committee had a report called the HUMA committee report on episodic disabilities. That was the last time I was before this committee as a witness. It stated explicitly that Employment and Social Development Canada should take these important steps to better support people with episodic disabilities. Having MS creates a life of uncertainty and unpredictability, but what should and can be certain and predictable are the supports that people with MS and episodic disabilities have. Now, in 2021, with the impacts of the pandemic ravaging our economy and the livelihoods of Canadians, the time for action has come. The MS Society, on behalf of Canadians who live with MS and the tens of thousands more who are part of our MS community, ask this committee to support the extension of the employment insurance sickness benefit. Thank you so much for this opportunity to speak.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsMS CanadaMultiple sclerosisPersons with disabilitiesPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Kelndorfer. [Technical difficulty—Editor]Colleagues, we're going to suspend briefly.(1605)(1610)JulieKelndorferSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]I call the meeting back to order and invite Monsieur Sansfaçon to deliver his opening remarks.SeanCaseyCharlottetownLouisSansfaçonLouisSansfaçonLouis-SansfaçonInterventionMr. Louis Sansfaçon (As an Individual): (1610)[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone. I hope you can hear me well. I was soundchecked, and I'm told that it's not perfect. I hope I can get the information across. Since [Technical difficulty—Editor] are paying attention, I feel like you can hear me. Can I just have a confirmation that people can hear me?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[Translation]I can hear you. You have the floor.LouisSansfaçonLouisSansfaçonLouisSansfaçonLouis-SansfaçonInterventionMr. Louis Sansfaçon: (1610)[Translation]Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for having me here today and for allowing me to testify before you. My name is Louis Sansfaçon. It is a privilege for me to have been invited to share my remarks with you. Clearly, nothing destined me for such an event. However, life's circumstances, the promise made to my daughter, Émilie, and my desire to make good on her wish motivate me and explain why I am here. I therefore do so in my capacity as a citizen and in the sweet memory of my daughter. I am Émilie's father. At the age of 29 and a half, she was diagnosed with stage 3 colorectal cancer. The severity of the disease required two interventions. The first, unfortunately, was to terminate her pregnancy, which was only just at the beginning. The second, three days after the announcement, was for her to undergo a major surgical procedure. As you can all understand, returning to work was out of the question. So she applied for EI sickness benefits. She then learned that she would only receive 15 weeks of benefits in which to recover. This meant that she received 11 weeks less than a caregiver who could be with her for 26 weeks. Yet her specialist had just told her that the clinical pathway would last at least 38 weeks. The absurdity of this situation is clear, even surreal. Émilie tried everything she could to get more weeks of benefits, but to no avail. She made phone calls and had many meetings. A few months after the 15 weeks had elapsed, despite her fatigue, but convinced that her young age would carry her through it, and, above all, faced with a financial abyss, she decided to return to work in order to accumulate the hours she needed to re‑qualify for EI and to protect herself against a recurrence, which she believed to be unlikely.In the meantime, my daughter and I approached our MP, Minister Jean‑Yves Duclos. He said that he was saddened by the situation and that he understood, but he took no stand, except to say that he would work to improve the situation and that EI was particularly difficult to manage, given the multitude of programs.Émilie and I were granted a private meeting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Minister Carla Qualtrough. We got a commitment from Mr. Trudeau to do better than 26 weeks of benefits. Mr. Trudeau told us at that time that the minority government would likely help support a proposal for more than 26 weeks of benefits and that he understood the situation. However, we did not get more information at that time, and he did not elaborate. Émilie did not manage to accumulate the necessary number of hours and was informed that, unfortunately, she was facing a significant relapse. Despite her condition, Émilie continued to make television appearances and give newspaper interviews to raise awareness, as she had received no real promise of change. She wanted sickness benefits to increase from 15 to 50 weeks. Of course, 50 weeks is not a gift. You don't just sign up in order to get 50 weeks. There has to be medical care. As soon as someone is cured and can return to work, they do. As many others have said before me, people don't just want to live on only 55% of their salary. They want to go back to work so that they can find meaning through their work and be examples for their children. The 50 weeks are not an opportunity to take a trip to Club Med. It is, in fact, a maximum of 50 weeks. If a person is cured after 34 weeks, that's when they return to work. However, they don't have to deal with the stress of wondering how to make ends meet between week 15—now week 26—and week 34.Since Émilie had no access to sickness benefits, friends and family organized fundraising dinners, dinner shows and a GoFundMe campaign to support this small family with two children, aged three and seven. It's a travesty that, in Canada, Émilie had to basically resort to begging or asking for charity, because that's what it is. She had to ask for charity. Of course, she didn't pay into EI for 26 years, because she died at 31. However, given that she paid into the system for 15 or 16 years, she should have received some financial support. During the same period, Canada was affected by the pandemic. Extraordinary financial measures were taken to support nine million people, and that's good. Émilie, like hundreds of thousands of sick people across Canada, had exhausted her 15 weeks of benefits, as we know, and was not eligible for the Canada emergency response benefit (CERB), as mentioned earlier. (1615) Since her illness was not related to COVID‑19, Émilie could not demonstrate that she was available for work. I am surprised when I hear the government say that it will not let any Canadian down. I think it is urgent and important to define what sick workers are. Are they still Canadian? Since we are not immune to other viruses and since COVID‑19 will have its own consequences in the medium and long term, we will have to think about this. Let's imagine the situation of a woman who is diagnosed with cancer today. Since the hospitals do not have the capacity to admit her right away, weeks will pass, the disease will worsen and gain ground. She may begin her treatments around the 11th week of her 15 weeks of sickness benefits. This is a stressful and ridiculous situation. As I told you, Émilie passed away on November 5, 2020, at the age of 31, less than 11 months after she met with Mr. Trudeau. She never found out that the government had taken a position on this issue and announced in its budget that the number of weeks of benefits would be increased to only 26 weeks. You didn't know Émilie. I can only imagine how disappointed she would have been, especially since a promise was broken. Several measures were announced in the recent budget. The government set the duration of sickness benefits at 26 weeks, ignoring the majority vote at second reading in favour of Bill C‑265, sponsored by MP Claude DeBellefeuille, whom you heard earlier. The average person who reads in the newspapers that the vote was a majority will be convinced that the changes will take place and that 50 weeks of sickness benefits will be possible, but that is not the case. Political games and a possible election call will probably change that. I am not familiar with the government structure, but I suspect that those things may be factors. The Canadian Cancer Society reports that treatment for breast and colon cancer, two of the most common and most frequently diagnosed cancers in Canada, requires 26 to 37 weeks of treatment. [Technical difficulty—Editor] proves that the 26 weeks that will eventually be granted will definitely not be enough. On April 19, 2021, the Canadian Cancer Society issued a press release citing the results of an Ipsos poll which found that 84% of respondents agreed that the duration of sickness benefits should be set at 50 weeks. Clearly, this makes sense. Let's get back to the basic issue. We should never forget that no worker asked to be sick. No one says they want to be sick. Some people will pay into the EI system their whole lives and never have to use it, and that's fine. Others, less fortunate, who have also paid in the same amounts, will have to deal with illness. Of course, some situations will be resolved before they exceed 15 or 26 weeks of sickness benefits. However, I am asking you today to consider some critical factors. Amending the bill to allow for the possibility of obtaining up to 50 weeks of sickness benefits must be motivated by the search for fairness, humanity and, above all, the desire to protect the workers against a form of discrimination. Marie‑Hélène Dubé often talks about ensuring the dignity and respect of individuals, because we are talking about people, not just statistics processed by a computer system. One day, we may learn that the statistics will block the implementation of new measures because of a problem with the computer.Clearly, when we are sick, we do not advocate, we do not organize demonstrations. All of our time and effort is focused on getting back to work, back to our families. At the G7 Summit in the U.K., Canada committed billions of dollars to humanitarian aid. That is our role, especially in times of pandemic. Yet right here in our own home, in 2019, over 420,000 Canadians have applied for EI sickness benefits and, as we now know, two‑thirds of them will not receive adequate benefits. We need to think about this and we need to make a decision.My testimony is also in line with the position of the Quebec Cancer Foundation, the unions, the groups defending the rights of the unemployed and various organizations. Illness has no nationality or religion. It certainly does not have a province or a border, and I hope, for the sake of the voters, that it does not have a constituency.(1620) Eventually, you or a loved one will be affected by illness. As a voter, you want your government to make decisions that respect your rights and your dignity. That is what Émilie would have demanded. These are the demands and the information that I promised to communicate on her behalf.Thank you for your attention. I am ready to answer any questions from the committee members.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Canada Emergency Response BenefitCancerCOVID-19Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsFundraising and fundraisersPandemicPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Sansfaçon.[English] We're now going to begin with questions from Ms. Dancho, please.Ms Dancho, you have six minutes.LouisSansfaçonRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC): (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, sincerely, witnesses, for your testimony. It was very moving.Félicitations, Madam DeBellefeuille, for all your accomplishment in bringing this forward. It took a lot of hard work to get it to this stage, and I want to sincerely congratulate you for that hard work and the difference this could make for thousands of Canadians as we've heard in the testimony today.Mr. Sansfaçon, I was extremely moved by your testimony in particular and hearing that you're here on behalf of your daughter, Émilie Sansfaçon, who was the same age as I am when she passed away this past fall from cancer. Of course, Madam DeBellefeuille honoured your daughter by naming this bill after her and her valiant effort to gain the attention of the Prime Minister and his Liberal government, which is an extraordinary accomplishment for someone so young. I really want to express my heartfelt sorrow for her passing. Thank you for being here on her behalf. It makes me emotional to even think about what you're doing for her as a father in her memory, so thank you again.I want to ask you about the progress that has been made, or lack thereof, by the Liberal government on this. As you and others mentioned in your testimony, there was a motion adopted in the House of Commons in February 2020 to bring sickness benefits to 50 weeks, and it was supported by all parties. However, here we are over a year later, and there is no progress on that. We know that the Liberals have promised 26 weeks, half the time that your daughter was advocating for, as well as Marie-Hélène, Julie and the other witnesses here. Even if that passes, it won't come into force until next summer in 2022.I would like to hear your thoughts on the progress, or lack thereof, thus far, by the Liberal government.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownLouisSansfaçonLouisSansfaçonLouis-SansfaçonInterventionMr. Louis Sansfaçon: (1620)[Translation]I don't see any progress. Nothing has happened since then, except promises and boilerplate answers. Recently, in Quebec, a lady from the Îles‑de‑la‑Madeleine mentioned that she had cancer and that, given the hospital delays, the 15‑week benefit period would quickly run out. Minister Qualtrough's response was to say that she understood the situation and that this is exactly why the government would extend the benefit period to 26 weeks. What was left out was that the promise of 26 weeks of benefits was not helpful to the lady. At some point, the benefit period will be 26 weeks. I hope that it will be possible to change things and that the members of the Liberal Party will take this problem into account. I also hope that this lady will understand that she will not be entitled to the promised 26 weeks of benefits. It is unfortunate, but she will not be entitled. She is entitled to only 15 weeks now. Some provide these boilerplate answers that look good in the papers. They say that they have improved the situation and that they understand what Canadians are going through. We must beware of such statements.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1625)[English]Thank you for that.I know that this past March the committee had the opportunity to actually implement [Technical difficulty—Editor]. I believe Mr. Blaikie was here with us. He brought forward an amendment for 50 weeks in a Liberal piece of legislation for the CRB extension. The Conservatives were very supportive of that, as were the NDP, who brought it forward. The Liberals were not. Later, the Liberals in the House of Commons said that they were not keen to provide a royal recommendation to Madam DeBellefeuille's bill, which is needed in order to make this bill law.I was quite discouraged by that as I know many members were. I think it shows that there is a lot of commitment from across party lines to make this happen. That is encouraging, but it's not nearly fast enough, particularly for all the witnesses on this committee who have suffered through 15 measly weeks of sickness benefits when they're battling MS or cancer.I know, Marie-Hélène Dubé, that you've battled cancer three times in about five years, I thought you said, so it is clearly urgent.We know that COVID long-haulers.... Another one of our witnesses, Madam Renaud, has outlined her experience there, so we know it is urgent.One thing I want to get your perspective on is the recent Conservative policy convention resolution that overwhelmingly supported 52 weeks of sickness benefits. It's very close to what Madam DeBellefeuille is putting forward—just two extra weeks. I would love to get your thoughts, Mr. Sansfaçon, Madam Dubé and also Madam Kelndorfer, on whether you would be supportive of the Conservative policy for 52 weeks of sickness benefits.Go ahead, Mr. Sansfaçon.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsLouisSansfaçonLouisSansfaçonLouisSansfaçonLouis-SansfaçonInterventionMr. Louis Sansfaçon: (1625)[Translation]Clearly, 50 weeks is almost 52 weeks. It would cover the year. Was 52 weeks proposed to include the waiting period? I don't know, because I don't know enough about the situation, but what I do know is that the first number is five. Let's go with that number, whether it's 50 or 52 weeks. I think that would be an extraordinary measure to improve people's quality of life. Quality of life [Technical difficulty—Editor], but people are getting through it and going back to work. That's what we need to remember. I wish my daughter had only needed 41 weeks. I applaud your 52‑week proposal and the 50‑week proposal. It is important to move forward.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English] Ms. Dancho, that is your time.LouisSansfaçonRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1625)[English]Thank you very much to the witnesses. SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Next is Mr. Long, please, for six minutes. RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long (Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.): (1625)[English]Thank you, Chair.Good afternoon to my colleagues.Thank you so much to the witnesses for the presentations. As Ms. Dancho said, they are moving. It's rare, but some of the testimony I heard leaves me speechless.Here are a few facts for the record. We know this, but nine out of 10 Canadians—or 8.2 out of 10—certainly support increased benefits. We know that whether it's breast cancer or colon cancer treatments, it's 26 to 37 weeks.Here in my constituency office, we deal regularly with people coming in who qualify for the 15 weeks. Then we go back and say that they can combine the 15 weeks with the 45 weeks and get a maximum of 50 weeks. Obviously, as per testimony that confirms what we all know, it is that you have to be eligible for work. I read an article in the Calgary Sun recently. A gentleman whose name is Scott Reason is a COVID long-hauler who can't work. He obviously qualified for the 15 weeks. His company is keeping his position for him in the hope that he will come back to work, but he is not able to go back to work so he doesn't qualify for the benefit. I want to start with you, Mrs. Renaud. Your situation and your testimony are extremely compelling. I read the Calgary Sun article with respect to Mr. Reason and then I listened to your testimony. Can you just elaborate more on the process you went through? You said you'd like to be giving your presentation from your home, which you couldn't stay in because of this. Can you just elaborate a little more for the committee on your experience?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)COVID-19Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPandemicPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownChantalRenaudChantalRenaudChantal-RenaudInterventionMrs. Chantal Renaud: (1630)[English]Yes. I got very sick with COVID in April 2020. I am one of the few lucky Canadians who actually has disability insurance. I was able to rely on that for the first 16 weeks of my leave, as I mentioned. It was the short-term disability period. During that time, there were a few weeks where I felt better and I did try to go back to work, unsuccessfully. As you know, long COVID often comes with waves of symptoms, so you get better for a little while and then it gets worse again. I wasn't able to stay at work. Despite that, my long-term disability claim was denied. Thankfully, I had some savings that I could rely on for a little while. In my case, I may have been one of the rare people who.... My husband also got sick with long COVID, so we were both unable to work. We were able to apply for the sickness benefits, but 15 weeks with an illness like long COVID, where most people are sick for over a year, wasn't enough for us.I made a choice to not get to the point where I would have to cash in my RRSPs. I wanted to keep that because that was meant for retirement. I'm going to need it in retirement, so I decided to sell my home. It was a very difficult decision, but it was the decision I was forced to make because after I was done with the short-term disability insurance and the 15 weeks' worth of EI sickness benefits, I had nothing else coming in. I've been without income now for many months. C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)COVID-19Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPandemicPrivate health insurancePrivate Members' BillsWayneLongSaint John—RothesayWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long: (1630)[English] Okay. I certainly understand. I thank you for that. Ms. Kelndorfer, thank you again for your presentation. I just wanted to run it by you with respect to the 50 weeks. Are there certain categories of workers that would be most impacted by the extension? Is there any particular category of worker you think would benefit more from this?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsWorkersChantalRenaudJulieKelndorferJulieKelndorferJulie-KelndorferInterventionMs. Julie Kelndorfer: (1630)[English]It's interesting. The MS Society over the last few years has really looked at the extension piece and has worked with a lot of different organizations, the Canadian Cancer Society being one, and the Canadian Labour Congress and others, employers included, and round tables.Back in 2015, we worked with the Institute for Research on Public Policy, and it really was a look at the entire span of leave when people are sick. They noted that, at any time, 6% of our working population has illness or a sickness, and we really aren't supported, as a Canadian population of workers, to have the supports to remain attached to the workforce. I think this is a really big issue.EI is a piece in a suite of benefits and support programs that need to be better coordinated. That was one of the pieces around this report and in other reports that have come along. We have participated with the Conference Board of Canada on a couple of them, particularly regarding MS in the workplace, and for people with episodic disabilities and diseases like cancer. Also, long-haul COVID is an interesting one that is new to our discussions and has a lot of resemblances to the episodic disabilities, such as the wave Chantal was speaking of. I've experienced that, too, with MS, and others have too. I do think that it is old, and it needs to be updated to address the current realities of our workplace and the situation for Canadians who get an illness.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPersons with disabilitiesPrivate Members' BillsWorkersWayneLongSaint John—RothesaySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you, Ms. Kelndorfer.Thank you, Mr. Long.[Translation]Ms. Chabot, the floor is yours for six minutes.JulieKelndorferLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): (1635)[Translation]First, let me send my warm regards to my dear colleague Mrs. DeBellefeuille, who has proudly championed this bill, and to the witnesses who have come to describe the situation for us with so much emotion, and justifiably so. My thanks go to Mr. Sansfaçon, for whom I have so much respect, for his commitment in continuing Émilie's fight, given all she had to go through. My thanks also go to Marie‑Hélène Dubé, Ms. Renaud and Ms. Kelndorfer.Here is what I want to say to the last question that my Liberal colleague asked, about how 26 weeks could address the situation. We cannot say that extending the period from 15 weeks to 26 weeks would not improve things slightly, of course. However, that leads me to this question.Mrs. DeBellefeuille, if the benefit period was 26 weeks, who would fall between the cracks and why?After 50 years, 13 bills, and a motion and a bill passed by a majority in the House, what other approach can be taken—because it's the 21st century—so that the Liberal government finally signs on to the idea that 50 weeks is necessary to meet the needs? It's a matter of simple fairness.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsWorkersSeanCaseyCharlottetownClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1635)[Translation]Thank you very much for the question, Ms. Chabot.This afternoon, we have had some good examples of what it would take. You have heard four testimonies from people for whom 15 weeks of benefits were not sufficient. That means, if you will, that we could spend the entire year hearing testimony from people for whom 15 weeks were not sufficient. For most of them, 26 weeks were not sufficient either, because they had illnesses that needed more than 26 weeks away from work.We are abandoning 150,000 Canadians each year because of our refusal to change the number of weeks. I'm sure you will agree with me that a period of 15 weeks is no longer viable. As for the 26 weeks, people think that it is already the case, but it is not the case at all, as Mr. Sansfaçon rightly said. It will be the case only when the government decides that it is the case. That has not happened yet. An election may well be called and months may well go by before the 26 weeks of benefits come into effect. However, some people are finishing their 15th week of benefits today, as we speak.We have the privilege and the opportunity to take care of those vulnerable and abandoned workers today by fulfilling a government commitment. It would not amend the Employment Insurance Act every week. The act has not been touched for 40 years. We are proposing one amendment that would address the new needs of workers and modernize special sickness benefits in order to better respond to the workers whom we are neglecting now and whom we will also be neglecting in the years to come.We do not understand this lack of sensitivity on the part of the government because, basically, the matter is well-documented. When I listen to Mr. Long, I really want to tell him that he knows full well that 26 weeks are not enough for a large number of workers who are sick.As Mr. Sansfaçon said, we are not asking that all sick workers take all 50 weeks. Instead, those who unfortunately need more than 15 weeks or 26 weeks, can obtain the support they need to get well and to go back to work.We are in politics and we pass bills on all kinds of subjects that do not fall into people's realities. They do not resonate with the public. Bill C‑265, on special sickness benefits, does resonate. People understand it, and we have reached the point where the Employment Insurance Act must be modified.Ms. Chabot, I am deeply saddened to see this political resistance, which most Quebecers and Canadians do not understand, because Bill C‑265 makes so much sense and is so well documented.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsWorkersLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1635)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Mr. Sansfaçon, when we hear testimony like Émilie's, whom we knew and have met, because we were with her at the meeting with the Prime Minister and Minister Qualtrough, we can say that we have an opportunity before us at the moment.Do you agree with me that we have an opportunity to act, to propose something that makes sense?It does make sense, because we are talking about workers who pay employment insurance premiums and have no complementary private insurance plan.Those are the people for whom we are demanding government action.What would 50 weeks of benefits have been able to change in Émilie's life?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsWorkersClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtLouisSansfaçonLouisSansfaçonLouis-SansfaçonInterventionMr. Louis Sansfaçon: (1640)[Translation]In a sense, Émilie was one of those workers just starting out in their careers. She was a simple administrator who did accounting work. She had no social safety net. She believed that, if she lost her job, the employment insurance program would give her up to 40 or 42 weeks to find another one. It would be interesting to conduct a survey or do a vox pop on the issue. I would actually be curious to find out how many people know that they are entitled only to 15 weeks of special sickness benefits, starting on the day they fall ill.If Émilie have been able to get 50 weeks of benefits, she might have avoided having to overdo things and cause herself physical problems by returning to work before she was able to.We will never know whether it hurt her. The fact remains that, in my opinion, attitude is important when one is ill. Émilie believed that too. And I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma and bone cancer a few years ago. However, when you have to pay your bills, look after a child, and incur new expenses in medical transportation, it is difficult. All kinds of things are added into the unknown. The only known in that situation is that you just have 15 weeks of benefits.If someone were able to know that, as of now, they could count on 50 weeks of benefits, I am convinced that it would do them a great deal of good, both mentally and in terms of their attitude to the illness and to the family. It would not cure anything at all, but it would help with the return to work.As a former employer, I would prefer to see an employee take 26, 28, 30 or 34 weeks of leave and then come back to work in good shape. I would not like to see them come back at the end of the 16th week and pretend to be in shape. It's not possible, it's not productive and it's not good.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsWorkersLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Sansfaçon and Ms. Chabot.[English] Next is Mr. Blaikie, please, for six minutes.LouisSansfaçonDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): (1640)[English]Thank you very much.I want to start by saying a big thank you to all of our witnesses today for discussing an important issue, to be sure, but also for sharing stories that are deeply personal. I know that it's not always easy to share in a public forum like this, so I thank you for having the courage to do that. I know that many Canadians who aren't here today will benefit from your willingness to share those stories.Along that vein, Mrs. Renaud, I understand that you may be one of the first people ever with long COVID to be testifying before a parliamentary committee. I know you talked a little bit about being able to avail yourself of a short-term disability plan but not a long-term disability plan. I know that there are insurance companies that aren't recognizing long COVID to the extent that they should, or in some cases at all, and that, even in the case where some companies are recognizing it, it can be difficult to get a diagnosis, particularly in part because Canada doesn't understand a lot about this condition. The world [Technical difficulty—Editor] respect of many other countries in terms of the work being done on this, but for those who got COVID and then have been subject to long COVID, if they got COVID before the testing regime was in place, a lot of them weren't able to get a positive diagnosis simply because the testing infrastructure didn't exist yet. I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to your own experience and the experience of other COVID long-haulers you know who have struggled to gain access to employer insurance plans.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)COVID-19Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPandemicPrivate health insurancePrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownChantalRenaudChantalRenaudChantal-RenaudInterventionMrs. Chantal Renaud: (1640)[English]For me, yes, like I was saying earlier, I was lucky to have the disability insurance, but there seems to be a problem with long-term disability claims. I certainly am not the only one whose long-term disability claim has been denied by disability insurance companies. In my particular case, and I know it is the case with a lot of other long-haulers, we do a lot of different medical tests, but everything comes back normal. On paper we look like there's nothing wrong with us when, in reality, most of us are completely debilitated and often bedridden or really unable to work. From the statistics I've seen, only 20% of Canadians have disability insurance, which means that a large majority of the population don't have access to that. Some of those people also get very ill. It's not just COVID long-haulers. It's all of the people who get sick. Especially if they don't have access to disability insurance, they need to be able to rely on more than 15 weeks of financial support. The 15 weeks pass so quickly, especially with the health care system right now. It's so overloaded that I have to wait for months for one medical test. I've already done a few, but I'm still waiting to do more, because there's a backlog there. It's crucial, it's vital that this be addressed and that there be something done about it as soon as possible.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)COVID-19Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPandemicPrivate health insurancePrivate Members' BillsDanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1645)[English]Thank you very much, Mrs. Renaud, for that testimony.[Translation]Mrs. Dubé, a month or two ago, this committee studied Bill C‑24, and, as Ms. Dancho said earlier, I tried to introduce an amendment so that the employment insurance program would provide 50 weeks of sickness benefits.The Liberals insisted that the NDP did not understand the software that processes sickness benefits, that it is really difficult to make changes to it, and, for that reason, they did not support my amendment. They considered that it would make no sense at all to provide a royal recommendation for the amendment.In Bill C‑30, the government proposes to increase the benefit period from 15 to 26 weeks. It will be a year or two before that measure comes into force. The Liberals were opposed to my amendment because they said it was difficult to make changes to the software. Now they are committing to make a change to the software.So why do they not extend the period to 50 weeks now instead of extending it to 26 weeks? In the coming years, they will once more be able to make the argument that it takes a lot of effort to change the system that pays the benefits.C-24, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (additional regular benefits), the Canada Recovery Benefits Act (restriction on eligibility) and another Act in response to COVID-19C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)C-30, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 19, 2021 and other measuresComputer systemsEmployment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsChantalRenaudMarie-HélèneDubéMarie-HélèneDubéMarie-Hélène-DubéInterventionMrs. Marie-Hélène Dubé: (1645)[Translation]That is a good question.As soon as you make a change, you have to change the system. The issue is not entering 26, 40 or 50 weeks, the issue is making the change. You can't keep putting it off just because there may be a problem. We know that the government has learned a lot from the errors that have occurred in recent years and that it will conduct tests. So it's really important to make the change.We have also heard a lot of figures, such as 37 weeks and 41 weeks. But those are statistics on the length of treatments. Do you really think that someone whose treatments lasted 43 weeks will be in good enough condition to return to work five days a week as soon as the treatments are over? The answer is no. That time must also be considered, and the statistics do not do so.During the pandemic, the government recognized that it was capable of [Technical difficulty] quickly in the act. It was good that they did so. They realized that where there's a will, a way can be found. In my opinion, it's not just about a technical problem, it's about having the will.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Computer systemsEmployment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsDanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. Dubé.[English] Next we'll go to Mrs. Falk, please, for five minutes. Marie-HélèneDubéRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk (Battlefords—Lloydminster, CPC): (1650)[English]Thank you, Chair.I would like to thank all of our panellists for their contribution to this, and not only that, but for being willing to be raw and real, sharing emotional stories. Thank you all for that. I have had the pleasure of being on this committee since I was first elected. I have been on this committee with Mr. Long and Mr. Vaughan, and in that time there have been a number of studies and reports done relating to employment insurance. We have heard repeated testimony about the limitations of the EI program [Technical difficulty—Editor], and during the pandemic we experienced the employment insurance program's limits on a larger scale with COVID. We know that because we have heard testimony on that today.The concern about the 15-week cap on employment insurance sickness benefits has been raised on a number of occasions on this committee, and this committee in the past has recommended its extension in studies like the report on episodic disabilities. It's a very frustrating point for me—being a member of this committee and being an elected official—having reports come from this committee and having the government not act on recommendations the committee has recommended to the government.We know that when someone is ill, EI sickness benefits should help alleviate the burden and the worry of income security, allowing them to focus on recovery. Knowing that, after their recovery, they will be able to go back to their job is also a concern that many have. If that worry is alleviated, it would also help someone focus on their recovery, which would help them heal more quickly. In this committee's study on episodic disabilities we had heard repeatedly about the value of continued labour force attachment.Ms. Kelndorfer, I'd like to thank you for your contributions to that study. I'm just wondering if you would agree that the labour force attachment should be a consideration in the structure of the EI program. If so, do you think that the proposed extension of sickness benefits will help more Canadians remain connected to the workforce?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsWorkersSeanCaseyCharlottetownJulieKelndorferJulieKelndorferJulie-KelndorferInterventionMs. Julie Kelndorfer: (1650)[English] Thank you for the question and thank you for highlighting that very important report of this committee around episodic disabilities. It was, I think, 20 years in the making when it came to the HUMA committee. Many of the conditions and diseases that are considered episodic, including cancer [Technical difficulty—Editor], have all been, I would say, amplified during COVID, so I think the recommendations in that report are needed now more than ever. I think the labour force attachment consideration is key. People want to work, but they struggle to work. How can we, as a society, ensure that they can remain connected to their workplace for as long as possible? We would be supportive of anything that would support that.I think that in the discussion around employment insurance, there are lots of other pieces around the sickness benefit. Extension is a piece, but I think there are other pieces, including the increase in the benefit. It's not just the extension, which is very important, but there are other pieces that will be supportive of maintaining that workforce attachment, which will help all Canadians who are able to access it, because there is also an access piece.If I can make just two more points, I think there is also a piece around women. Women have been disproportionately affected by COVID. They also are disproportionately affected in terms of accessing the EI sickness benefit from the get-go because of their precarious, part-time and different labour force attachment.The other piece that Mrs. Renaud spoke about—the short-term to long-term disability—has been an ongoing issue for many years for many different diseases. I think that's a piece I would surely like to see change.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPersons with disabilitiesPrivate Members' BillsWomenWorkersRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1655)[English]Thank you, Ms. Kelndorfer.What are some of the benefits that someone would experience who has the opportunity for that labour force attachment?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPersons with disabilitiesPrivate Members' BillsWorkersJulieKelndorferSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Answer very briefly, please. We're out of time. RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterJulieKelndorferJulieKelndorferJulie-KelndorferInterventionMs. Julie Kelndorfer: (1655)[English]Work provides a number of important considerations. For people with MS, for example, being able to work makes them able to continue with their benefits in terms of their disease-modifying therapies, which actually have been shown in study after study to reduce disability. Of course, reducing disability would benefit all. Thank you.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPersons with disabilitiesPrivate Members' BillsWorkersSeanCaseyCharlottetownRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1655)[English]That's wonderful. Thank you.JulieKelndorferSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Thank you, Mrs. Falk and Ms. Kelndorfer.The last couple of questions will be posed by Mr. Dong, please, for five minutes. RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.): (1655)[English]Thank you very much, Chair.I'll be splitting my time with MP Vaughan.To all the panellists, I want to thank you very much for sharing your stories. I remember, in 2005, a close family member was diagnosed with third-stage colon cancer. The financial anxiety that came along with that diagnosis was definitely troubling to our entire family. I remember the struggle of looking at the different programs to see what would be there to support [Technical difficulty—Editor]. I fully appreciate the experiences you are sharing with us today.I see 26 weeks as a step forward, so I want to thank Madam DeBellefeuille for her leadership on this. I am pretty confident that it is going to be the reality.Mrs. Renaud mentioned the difficulties of accessing long-term disability support. I want to ask all panellists how they see other long-term disability supports, such as the CPP disability benefit, complementing as an extension of the EI sickness benefit.The question is open to any one of the panellists.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownJulieKelndorferJulieKelndorferJulie-KelndorferInterventionMs. Julie Kelndorfer: (1655)[English]Thank you for the question.Yes, I think there are multiple benefit programs that could be better coordinated with EI sickness benefits, from provincial and territorial programs to the program you spoke of, which is the Canada pension plan disability benefit.One of the things that people with MS have is that, once they're on it, it's very hard to go in and out of the system. A disease like MS is very intermittent. Again, it's that on-and-off piece. Once a person is on a benefit, it's very difficult to move back and forth. There have been suggestions and ideas around a partial disability benefit. Could that be a medium-term benefit that fills that gap between the EI sickness benefit and the long-term disability piece? I think that would be an idea. C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPrivate Members' BillsSocial benefitsHanDongDon Valley NorthSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English] Mr. Dong, if you want to split your time, you're past the halfway mark, but I'll leave that up to you.JulieKelndorferHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1655)[English]I'll turn it over to MP Vaughan.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Mr. Vaughan, go ahead, please.HanDongDon Valley NorthAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan (Spadina—Fort York, Lib.): (1655)[English]I would like to thank the witnesses who have been asked to come again and tell stories that are not easy to tell. It certainly makes me reflect on my mother's last chapter in life, which was a 15-year battle with three different bouts of cancer. My parents were immigrants. They'd split up, so there were three teenage kids taking care of our mother while she did and didn't work, while we tried to go to school. It was pretty intense.One of the issues that was really hard to navigate, as I was doing this work for my parents as a minor, was the issue of working while on benefit. I was wondering if Ms. Kelndorfer could talk about the changes that have been made to restore working while on benefit, but also some of the changes around seasonal employment to try to make EI more flexible and more nimble and to take advantage of the good days so the bad days can be weathered. I also wonder whether those have helped fortify the changes we've made to the EI sickness benefits that have also kicked in.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPart-time workersPrivate Members' BillsSeanCaseyCharlottetownJulieKelndorferJulieKelndorferJulie-KelndorferInterventionMs. Julie Kelndorfer: (1655)[English]Thank you for that.Yes, I think there should be acknowledgement regarding the changes to working while on sickness benefits included in the EI system benefits. It's an important change that has been made and it supports keeping people attached to the workforce and being able to receive some benefit, while also working, so I think that has been....I'm not sure about the seasonal piece as much. I haven't looked into that as much, but I think the entire concept around flexibility is key here. I think people have different needs and need supports in terms of their illnesses and sickness that need to be accommodated. I think anything that we can do to create that flexibility is going to be important.I do think we have to take into consideration the realities of different people, so increasing that flexibility and also increasing that extension piece will be supportive of all people who are dealing with illness and sickness in this country.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Employment insurance benefits period extensionEmployment insurance sickness benefitsPart-time workersPrivate Members' BillsAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.Thank you, Ms. Kelndorfer.Colleagues, that takes us to 30 minutes before we have to sign off. We do have some committee business to tend to, so I'm sorry for truncating the period of questions for this very fascinating panel, but that's exactly what we have to do. [Translation]Allow me to thank Mrs. DeBellefeuille and congratulate her for her leadership, because of which her private member's bill has reached this stage. We are very grateful to her and she has our congratulations.My dear witnesses, let me repeat the message that you heard before. We are grateful to you for telling us your very personal stories in a public forum, and we thank you for your passion,[English]Thank you very much to all of the witnesses for being with us here today. It's clear that this is something that is extremely important in your lives personally and for the people for whom you speak. It is greatly appreciated. You have touched every one of us, and we thank you so much for being with us and, as was indicated, having the courage to tell your story in the powerful way you did.With that, you are welcome to stay, but you're free to go. We're now going to move into committee business.Colleagues we're going to be doing committee business in public, so there is no need to log off. We have four items I would like to cover, and Ms. Dancho has one. Just to ensure that we don't run out of time, Ms. Dancho, if you want to you can introduce the item you wished to bring forward, and then perhaps we can try to work through my list in the remaining 26 minutes.Ms. Dancho.Committee businessJulieKelndorferRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.This is just something I'd like the committee to consider since it looks as though we may not finish our seniors study. Conservative colleagues were talking about the benefit that we might have if we could extend.... Actually, we'd have to reopen the submission, because the deadline is closed, but if we can reopen and extend the submission deadline for the seniors study until we complete the witness testimony, we would have just a little bit more time for a few more seniors' advocates to provide some more in-depth feedback, and we could do a more fulsome study. I would just ask that the committee consider reopening it and extending it until the witness testimony is done, which could be next week, depending on how the committee goes, or perhaps it could be in the fall.That's just a simple request in that regard, and I would appreciate it if the committee would agree to that.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English] We have a request to extend the deadline for the submission of briefs until the end of verbal witness testimony. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, we have agreement to extend the deadline. Thank you very much, Ms. Dancho.While we're on the seniors study, if we can deal with that next, we have a suggestion from the analysts that there was some testimony that we heard while we were sitting as part of the COVID committee last summer, before this committee. It has been suggested that the testimony that was given when we were doing that would be of assistance with the seniors study.Is there any objection to the suggestion that the testimony be received and be included as part of the ongoing study that we're doing right now with respect to seniors?Ms. Falk, please go ahead.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English]Thank you, Chair.I don't have an objection. The only thing that I would like to make sure of is that, if there were maybe witnesses who came last summer who then submitted a brief this time, nothing would be cancelled out and that what was provided last summer and a brief this time, if provided, could maybe be time marked. I do believe that COVID, as we all know, is evolving and always changing, and this is just so that nothing would be nullified or cancelled out. That's all that I would ask.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]I think that's reasonable. Are there any concerns about that?Just for the sake of clarity, the proposed wording that I've been provided is as follows: That, in the context of the study of the impact of COVID-19 on seniors, the evidence and documentation received by the committee during the 1st Session of the 43rd Parliament on the study of the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic be taken into consideration by the committee in the current session.I think, based on Mrs. Falk's intervention, we can add “in addition to any other testimony, verbal or written, provided in the course of the current study”.Is that agreeable to the committee? I believe I see agreement. Thank you.[Technical difficulty—Editor] one with respect to the report on the employment insurance program. That report will be ready to be tabled in the House on Monday, and it is my plan to do it on Monday. If that plan changes, I will let you know right away, but that's what it looks like.A question for the committee is this: Is the committee amenable to instructing the analysts to prepare a press release on the tabling of the EI reform report?Is there any discussion on that? I think we have agreement. To our analysts, you can consider yourselves so instructed.The last thing is the Centennial Flame Research Award. We have had a discussion around the award. We have not yet adopted a motion to set a deadline for the submission of applications or to fix on the amount of the award. In the discussion that we had on May 27, it was proposed that the amount be set at $6,700 and that the deadline for submissions be July 1, which now appears to be kind of tight.It's open to your suggestions with respect to the Centennial Flame Research Award. Are we still comfortable with $6,700, and could I hear from you as to a reasonable deadline for the submission of applications?[Translation]Ms. Chabot, the floor is yours.Committee businessRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1705)[Translation]Personally, I agree with the amount being $6,700.As for the applications, you seem to be saying that a July 1 deadline is tight. Given that this has nothing to do with the House rising, what are we able to do? We can decide that it will be a little later than July 1, can we not?Actually, I am going to keep going and you can give me an answer later. Given that I have the floor, I would like to ask a question about our committee business.When are we going to do the clause-by-clause of Bill C‑265? Perhaps I don't know the rules, but I thought that we were going to do it today.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English] Okay.[Translation]We are going to discuss it right after the topic we are dealing with at the moment. But you are right, Ms. Chabot. We have to discuss it today as well.(1710)[English]Ms. Dancho, please, on the Centennial Flame Research Award.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1710)[English] I just want to suggest September 1. That gives us two months to get the word out in our communities. It's the summer when students are out of school, and it might be a good time for them to focus on applying for scholarships and things like the Centennial Flame Research Award. Two months would be nice.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]That's a good idea.Ms. Gazan.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): (1710)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm okay with that. My only thing is this: Let's say, potentially, an election were called. Would that impact our ability to distribute the award if we were to wait until September?Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]I think it's unlikely that we're going to be able to give the award until Parliament returns. If there is no election, according to the parliamentary calendar, it would be mid-to-late September anyway. The earliest we are going to be back would be mid-to-late September. If an election intervenes, it could be later.Committee businessLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1710)[English]Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Do we have consensus, then, to set the award at $6,700 and to set the deadline for the submission of applications at September 1?Mr. Vaughan, please.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1710)[English]I'm sorry. I was just going to speak in favour of that. I'm in favour of both of those, September 1 and $6,700.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Okay, do we have consensus? I believe we do.[Translation]As for Ms. Chabot's last question, she is right. Normally, there is a period of 48 hours in which amendments to a bill can be submitted, but that can be changed by a decision of the committee.So we have at least two options for the clause-by-clause consideration. The first option is to do it this week, on Thursday, and the second option is to do it at the following meeting, which is next Tuesday.[English]Colleagues, if we are ready to go to clause-by-clause on Bill C-265, we can adopt a motion now to do it on Thursday, if you wish, or next Tuesday. If it is your wish to continue to hear from witnesses, then we should deal with that now as well.I'm in your hands as to how we dispense with Bill C-265.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Committee businessAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1710)[Translation]Mr. Chair, if we need a motion to do it on Thursday, that is what I will propose. But there is something I don't understand.We had decided to call witnesses up to a certain date. We have heard the witnesses and I don't think that we are going to make any witnesses come back. Since we had up to the same date to submit amendments, I thought we were going to be voting today. We are not going to be calling for witnesses again. Does that mean that you have not asked to receive amendments?Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[Translation]No, not yet.Committee businessLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1710)[Translation]Okay. There were no amendments and no one has asked for any.So I propose that we move to clause-by-clause consideration, without witnesses, on Thursday.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Colleagues, we have a motion to proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-265 at Thursday's meeting. Is there any discussion?Do we have consensus to proceed in this fashion? Excellent. The next order of business is to notify all MPs who are not members of official parties of the plan of the committee.Am I missing anything?C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Committee businessLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Danielle Widmer): (1710)[English] Mr. Chair, I would just request that a deadline for the amendments be set by the committee.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Given the tight timeline that we have, what would be a reasonable amount of time for amendments to be put in a proper package for us to consider on Thursday? How about the close of business tomorrow?DanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1715)[English]Yes, please. That would be ideal.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Do we agree that it be circulated to members of Parliament that any proposed amendments be received by the clerk by 5 p.m. eastern tomorrow? I believe we have agreement on that.Is there any other business to come before the meeting? Seeing none, is it the committee's wish to adjourn? I believe it is. Have a wonderful evening. Thank you very much, colleagues, and we'll see you on Thursday for clause-by-clause.Committee businessDanielleWidmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.)): (1535)[English] I call this meeting to order and welcome you to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website, which will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 2, 2021, the committee will continue its study on the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.I'd like to welcome Dr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard from the National Seniors Council.Dr. Blanchard, interpretation is available at this video conference. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly, and when you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.You'll probably see me from time to time holding up one finger. That's not because I have something to say; it's to signal that there's one minute left in the turn of the person who's asking you a question.Thank you so much for being with us, Dr. Dupuis-Blanchard. Without further ado, you have the floor for your opening remarks for a five full minutes, if you need them. COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard (Professor, National Seniors Council): (1535)[English] Thank you Mr. Chair, and thank you to the members of the committee for your interest in the impact of COVID-19 on older adults.On behalf of the members of the National Seniors Council, I want to provide our sincerest condolences to Canadians who have lost a parent or loved one during this pandemic, and our thoughts go out to family members who have been separated from their relatives in long-term care facilities for the past 13 or 14 months.In addition to my role as chairperson of the National Seniors Council, I am a registered nurse, for the past 30 years, with experience in aging and community health, currently involved in vaccination efforts against COVID-19; a professor at the school of nursing at l'Université de Moncton, where I also hold a research chair in population aging from the Consortium national de formation en santé, studying aging in place and director of the centre on aging.The National Seniors Council was created in 2007 to advise the Government of Canada, through the Minister of Seniors and the Minister of Health, on matters related to health, well-being and quality of life of older adults. The council currently has 11 members, including me, who come from a wide variety of sectors related to aging, including academia, social and health sectors, community and front-line organizations and the private sector. In developing its advice to ministers, the council undertakes a range of activities, including commissioning research, consulting with older adults and stakeholders across the country and convening expert panels and round tables.When the COVID-19 pandemic hit in March 2020, the council was in the process of implementing a three-year work plan covering 2018 to 2021. The work plan had four main priorities: first, identifying measures to reduce crimes and harms against seniors; second, examining potential objectives and elements of a national seniors strategy; third, developing an age-friendly healthy aging policy lens to potentially examine federal policy and initiatives; fourth, identifying measures to counteract ageism by shifting the public discourse on aging.(1540)[Translation]In 2019, in the context of a general public meeting and expert roundtable in Winnipeg, we addressed the priority of action to reduce crimes targeting seniors and financial harm to seniors. In addition, we released the “What We Heard” report, which is available on our website. However, I would like to make a few points that remain relevant to COVID‑19.[English] The council found that financial crimes and harms against seniors are perpetrated by different actors and assume a variety of forms, from romance scams to aggressive door-to-door sales. Of importance is that social isolation can be a key risk factor, as scammers often prey upon the loneliness of older adults who are isolated and in need of basic human contact. Poverty and economic insecurity can also make older adults more susceptible to certain scams. You can understand that with social isolation having increased as a result of the pandemic, new frauds are being perpetrated against older adults. These include unsolicited calls claiming to be from a private company or from health care providers offering home self-testing kits or even vaccination for an upfront fee; and private companies selling fraudulent products that claim to treat or prevent COVID-19. When the pandemic began, the council quickly shifted its priorities to monitoring the pandemic situation of older adults. We immediately recognized that the pandemic was having, and was going to have, a disproportionate impact on older adults, and that studies were appearing to take stock of the situation from various perspectives, especially in relation to long-term care, but to a somewhat lesser extent, notions such as social isolation and older adults residing outside of long-term care facilities.The council determined that to add value, it would provide high-level advice to ministers by reviewing research findings and the viewpoints of older adults and stakeholders, and by identifying values and principles to support the health and well-being of older adults. In response, and prior to the beginning of the second wave, the council prepared a report for ministers based on a review of over 40 reports regarding older adults and the pandemic. The report, entitled “Seniors Well-Being in Canada: Building on Lessons Learned from the Pandemic”, will soon be added to the council's website. If members of the committee would like to receive a copy, I'd certainly be happy to share it after this meeting. [Translation]The report suggests 22 actions, supported by conclusive data, as they relate to five main themes. Each action is further broken down into short, medium and long-term actions. Our advice to ministers has taken into account such fundamental elements as healthy aging and quality of life for seniors, the full continuum of care from home to nursing home, the negative impact of COVID‑19, and respect for federal, provincial and territorial jurisdictions.[English]Since then, the council has continued working on the impacts of the pandemic on older adults, and has recently submitted advice to the ministers regarding the national long-term care standards, as these were included in the ministers' revised mandate letters and budget 2021. We continue to monitor the research that is being published related to the pandemic and older adults, and we will continue advising the ministers on this important issue. We are also in early discussions related to our next work plan.Thank you for the opportunity to be here with you. I certainly look forward to our discussion.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Elder abuseLong-term careNational Seniors CouncilPandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Thank you very much, Dr. Dupuis-Blanchard.We will now begin with rounds of questions, starting with the Conservatives.Mr. Vis, please go ahead for six minutes.SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC): (1545)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Ms. Dupuis-Blanchard, for being here today.What really got me going when you first started speaking was the issue of phone scammers in conjunction with social isolation during the pandemic. My grandmother—my oma—who's 93, lives on her own and made a really good friend in Jamaica who talked to her about Jesus Christ and wanted her bank information. My oma was about to give it to him, had it not been for a family member who came into the house when the man called. They had numerous conversations over the phone. I will note that my oma has day-to-day care in her house through her grandchildren and children.What can we do at the federal level to try to temper phone scamming? It is prevalent and almost ubiquitous, and it's only getting worse. Do you have any recommendations about how we can combat financial crimes that are taking place over the telephone?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSwindles and scamsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1545)[English] Thank you for that important question. It is something that we looked at when we did our consultation in Winnipeg. We had national representation there from experts and whatnot. A lot of the recommendations that came forth, which would be related to what you just shared, are on creating a campaign to create awareness. We all think that people know about these scams, but I'm sure that if we think back, we ourselves, or others, have been involved in clicking on something or receiving a call and providing information that we probably shouldn't have. We definitely need to create that awareness about being careful. Those efforts need to continue. Actually, the federal government has wonderful resources already available, but a lot of people don't know about them.I have to say, even during that meeting of experts [Technical difficulty—Editor] we presented to the experts there some of the federal resources, and a lot of them were not even aware that those existed. One of those is “The Little Black Book of Scams”. It's been wonderfully done. It's been widely accepted by the people who do know about it, but we certainly have to continue facilitating or creating that awareness. Also, people do not know how to report it. COVID-19Information disseminationPandemicSenior citizensSwindles and scamsBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1545)[English]Thank you. That's very, very helpful. We need to do a better job of promoting existing resources that are available.You mentioned, as well, and we heard in our last panel on Tuesday, especially from the seniors advocate from the province of British Columbia, where I reside, that social isolation has led to even worse mental health outcomes for seniors during the pandemic. Could you talk briefly about the role that civil society can play, and more importantly, family and friends? What can the federal government do to facilitate more interactions with seniors, maybe either through funding community groups or empowering people in the community who want to play a role helping seniors but don't know how to do it? COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1545)[English]Thank you again for another important topic, that of social isolation.The council, previous to my involvement, also looked at social isolation. There's work on our website that dates from 2017. There were some consultations done previous to that report as well. Some of the recommendations that the council made to the ministers at that time were, again, to increase public awareness about the importance of, but also the consequences of social isolation. It also went further, to say that we need to improve access to information on the programs and the services that are available in the local community. Some services are available, and activities, but a lot of seniors don't know about them. Until you're in a position to seek those services or activities to get you out of the house, you don't really pay attention to it. So we definitely have to facilitate that. We all have a role to play in addressing social isolation. For me, that's where age-friendly communities come into play, as well as initiatives like the new horizons for seniors program, which I know you all know about. That plays an important role in bringing community programs and initiatives to seniors who are isolated as well. COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1550)[English]Thank you.Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]You have just under a minute.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1550)[English]Okay, I'm good. That was a great round.Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Vis. Next we have Mr. Turnbull, please, for six minutes.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull (Whitby, Lib.): (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thanks to the witness, Ms. Dupuis-Blanchard. It's great to have you here. Thanks for your testimony.I want to go back to what Mr. Vis was talking about in relation to social isolation and loneliness. Certainly it's a concern. I am fully aware in my community of constituents in long-term care, but also seniors who are isolated at home for long periods of time. From your perspective, what are the health impacts that seniors have been experiencing as a result of this? As an example, my mother has vascular dementia and has been isolated for almost 15 months in long-term care and I've seen a very significant decline in her overall physical health. Could you comment on the health impacts of that?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1550)[English] There are definitely some important health impacts of social isolation, be it in long-term care, like what you just shared, or for people in the community. I've seen it myself in my own projects on aging in place and the impact that social isolation is having on things like mobility, because people are not moving around as much as they used to. That really has an impact even on muscle loss and risk of falls. There is an impact mentally as well. I'm thinking about dementia. I'm thinking mostly about those who would be maybe in the early stages of dementia and who haven't seen their extended families and whatnot. There's certainly going to be an impact when we start opening up again and when family members interact with older adults who have been isolated and who may have progressed in their loss of mobility or cognition. These are important impacts on life and on trying to keep seniors independent as well. That's what it gets at. We want to make sure seniors remain as independent as possible in terms of mobility, meal preparation and socialization. Also, socialization is so important. When we look at social isolation, the latest research talks about how it's almost like chain-smoking. The impact on a person's body is the same as smoking about 15 cigarettes a day. If we think about that in the context of COVID, then with everything else and the precautions and the stress of it, it certainly is something seniors are living now. The effects on mental health, as well, will certainly have to be addressed as we think about post-pandemic times.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityRyanTurnbullWhitbyRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1550)[English]Thank you for those comments. They're really appreciated.SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Mr. Turnbull, we now have Dr. Kuperman with us. I'm going to suggest that we suspend to do a sound check for him and then allow him to deliver his opening remarks. You are about halfway through your turn. If all goes well and Dr. Kuperman is ready to go, then you'll have three minutes when we come back.We'll suspend while we do the sound check. RyanTurnbullWhitbySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: Dr. Kuperman, you might have missed some of the preamble. I'll give you the condensed version. Interpretation is available on the bottom of your screen. You have the choice of floor, English or French. Please close your microphone when you're not speaking, and speak slowly and clearly for the benefit of the interpreters. That's the Reader's Digest version.Now we're going to resume with questions, beginning with Mr. Turnbull for three minutes.Mr. Turnbull, you have the floor.SeanCaseyCharlottetownRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1555)[English]Thank you.I'll go to Mr. Kuperman. Thank you for being here. I suppose you probably caught the tail end—SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Excuse me, Mr. Turnbull. I missed one very important step.Dr. Kuperman has undoubtedly been working for days and days on his opening remarks, and I gave such a condensed version that I forgot to give him the floor.Dr. Kuperman, you have five minutes for your opening remarks, and then Mr. Turnbull is going to ask some very interesting questions. You have the floor.RyanTurnbullWhitbyVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman (Associate Professor, McMaster University, As an Individual): (1555)[English]Thank you so much, Chair Casey. I appreciate being here, and I thank you for your patience.I'm an associate professor at the Department of Linguistics and Languages at McMaster University, and I am a member of the McMaster Institute for Research on Aging. I study two topics: the psychological and emotional well-being of seniors and the public discourse regarding seniors during the COVID-19 pandemic. I will touch upon both topics today. I use language as my data: media and social media, stories written by seniors, and messaging by federal and provincial authorities. The present testimony is based on my own work and existing international research.Our studies of stories written by older adults show that the psychological fallout of COVID-19 on Canadian seniors has been profound. Linguistic analysis of the choice of words and topics pointed to signs of profound psychological distress among seniors. We saw an increasing use of language markers of pessimism, anxiety, fear and uncertainty. This evidence maps well onto the Canadian statistics of deteriorating mental health.We set up a longitudinal study that uncovered the dynamics of the emotional toll that the pandemic took. Psychological well-being of seniors did not decline immediately after the global lockdown in March 2020. Rather, seniors showed emotional resilience to stress, which set off this decline by roughly four months, yet since August 2020 and up until now, the seniors have remained at the same deteriorated emotional state—the “new normal”. If the lockdown continues, our data predict that this state will worsen, leading to further loss of health and lives. Our analyses further confirmed robust findings that loneliness, social isolation and pre-pandemic health issues are the key determinants of psychological vulnerability.What brings relief to seniors? Many participants in our studies mentioned the success of intergenerational online projects involving storytelling and story-sharing, a creative and therapeutically relevant form of communication, yet these projects leave out those seniors that may need them the most, that is, the ones without access or knowledge to engage in online communication. Unless caretakers provide training in the use of online tools of social engagement to such individuals, the digital divide will grow and social isolation exacerbate.Given available data, I recommend to support further development of social engagement programs, especially those across generations; provide reliable Internet infrastructure and access to technology to all seniors; and, support education in digital literacy for seniors with the help of trained caretakers.Another topic that looms large in my current research and the international research is the rise of ageism in the public discourse on the pandemic. This discriminatory sentiment is not new, but it has now been fuelled by the greater vulnerability that seniors show to COVID-19. Ageism surfaces in media as an undifferentiated portrayal of all seniors as frail, helpless or burdensome. This negative perspective can even find support in social policies if they are formulated in terms of age as a number, rather than talking about individuals and their situation. In its most radical form, ageism surfaces as blatant disregard for seniors’ lives. It is illustrated in social networks by an offensive, insulting label: #BoomerRemover.Ageism is not a prevalent sentiment in social media, but it is persistent, so it strengthens negative stereotyping against seniors in all age groups. It has been widely reported to bias triaging decisions in health care delivery against seniors, as well as employment decisions. Seniors themselves absorb this negative public discourse as well. It adds to their daily stress, harms their cognitive functioning and undermines their self-esteem.With these findings in mind, I recommend to support educational and public awareness programs about aging and its physiological, cognitive and emotional components. In official communication, including policies and public health messaging, I recommend avoiding an emphasis on age as a critical group variable. Instead, public messaging should target socio-economic or health-related characteristics of individuals.Thank you for your attention. I'm looking forward to further discussion.AgeismCOVID-19Mental healthNew technologiesPandemicResearch and researchersSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Dr. Kuperman.Without further ado, for the remainder of his six-minute round, we have Mr. Turnbull. I'll do my best not to interrupt you over the next three minutes, Mr. Turnbull. You have the floor.VictorKupermanRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1600)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.That was absolutely perfect, because the question I was going to ask you was basically answered in your opening remarks. Thank you for that. I have other questions that follow up on your opening remarks, so perhaps I'll get to dive a little further into the topic as a result.You mentioned intergenerational programming as potentially a way to reduce social isolation and loneliness among seniors. You also talked about digital literacy and the divide that is perhaps there. I think we're all present to that. I know the new horizons for seniors program has at times, at least in my riding, focused on some of the programs that can be delivered in a virtual format during the pandemic.Mr. Kuperman, could you expand on how we address digital literacy when dealing with seniors?COVID-19Digital literacyPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1600)[English] We're talking about [Technical difficulty—Editor] that is the most detached from technology, and it's a sizable proportion. I think the estimate is that only about 75% of seniors age 65 and up have access to Internet in North America. This is a question of infrastructure and providing access, but it is also a question of who will teach them to use the technology and the tools. Indeed, great strides have already been made with the help of federal and provincial funding. I know several programs that do that. The one closest to me geographically is Cyber-Seniors.I think it is through the support of caretakers, those who have physical access to seniors and can bring the technology and knowledge to them, that this will perhaps succeed the most.Adult education and trainingCOVID-19Digital literacyPandemicSenior citizensRyanTurnbullWhitbyRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1600)[English]Coming out of the pandemic, assuming we are, which I think we're all very hopeful for at this moment.... Certainly with vaccinations increasing across the country and case numbers going down in most areas of the country, I think perhaps we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.There is this sort of shadow pandemic of mental, physiological and emotional health and cognitive functioning, which you spoke to, within the seniors population, and I wonder how we begin to address that as we move forward. Do you have broad suggestions for us on what we can do to ensure that seniors' health, both physical and emotional, doesn't decline further?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensVictorKupermanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Be as brief as you can, please.RyanTurnbullWhitbyVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1600)[English]Briefly, the public awareness programs and the educational programs that I mentioned would be a very good partial solution. They need to be directed at the seniors and the population at large to make sure that awareness is there and that ageism does not proliferate.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.VictorKupermanLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses.My question is for Ms. Dupuis‑Blanchard, president of the National Seniors Council, whom I welcome.At the beginning of your remarks, you reminded us of the objective of the National Seniors Council. I'm looking at it myself right now: your role is to engage seniors, stakeholders, and experts in order to advise the government.When it comes to engaging seniors, in what ways do you consult them?I am asking you this because in Quebec, the mobilization of seniors has been very strong with regard to the impoverishment of seniors and their financial situation. Yes, the pandemic has hit hard, but it has also highlighted the impoverishment of our seniors. Yes, health and mental health issues must be considered, but the financial issue is also important.In your recommendations and advice to government, do you address the issue of the impoverishment of seniors?If so, do you recognize that seniors can find themselves in very precarious financial situations as early as age 65?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1605)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot. This is a most important issue.The mobilization role of the National Seniors Council can be interpreted in different ways.The members of the council often come from different provinces, so we have a fairly national representation. All members are very close to the elders in their communities and engage with them in different ways. Often, my council colleagues bring back the experiences and stories of the seniors they consulted.Of course, when we launch a consultation or hold a roundtable, for example, it allows us to reach out to certain groups of seniors. We recognize that the number of people we can engage is limited. However, we always make a strong effort to reach out to seniors so that their voices are heard.I can speak from personal experience, although I know we are focusing on the council right now.We are certainly well aware that there are seniors living in poverty or with low incomes. The council has done some work on elder crime and elder abuse. In that work, we have found that seniors with low incomes are often at risk.In terms of my own work, our team in New Brunswick worked to develop a picture of the economic situation of seniors. We focused on the situation of francophone seniors in the province. Often, statistics show us that francophone seniors have a lower income than anglophone seniors because of their education. They have a lower level of education and hold more precarious or seasonal jobs. This results in their having a much lower income when they reach retirement age than their anglophone counterparts.So my personal work converges with my work on the council. My colleagues on the council and I are always trying to get [Technical difficulty—Editor] and see what other sometimes underrepresented subgroups of seniors need to be part of our discussions and recommendations.COVID-19PandemicSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1605)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Dupuis‑Blanchard.You know that the government decided to increase the old age security pension for people aged 75 and over, even though this pension is available to Canadian seniors starting at the age of 65. However, no evidence has been provided to explain why seniors aged 60 to 74 are excluded. As you just said, poverty has no age limit.As part of your health care and financial studies, have you collected data by age group? For example, do you have data on seniors aged 60 to 70 and seniors aged 70 and over?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1605)[Translation]I've collected some data as part of my personal work. I could send it to you if you're interested.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English]Next we are going to have Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): (1605)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.My first questions are for Madam Dupuis-Blanchard. On ageism, seniors have paid the cost of poor planning and policy with their lives and well-being during this pandemic. I believe the pandemic very clearly exposed the role of ageism in Canada and how elders in our communities—not in all communities—are really quite devalued. It's very sad. Can you tell us more about the role of ageism during the pandemic?AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1610)[English] Yes, certainly, and I agree with your comment about how sad [Technical difficulty—Editor] Ageism certainly happens in the intersection of sexism as well and sexuality. It's not an isolated phenomenon that happens. During the pandemic, what we've seen is often what we say is “compassionate ageism”. What I mean by this is that older adults have been portrayed as passive persons who should rely on someone else to receive care and support. We've portrayed them in that pity kind of way of looking at things. For sure, the pandemic's impact has been phenomenal and we can't deny that, but there is certainly a way to portray it that would not necessarily conduct to ageism.As Dr. Kuperman said in his opening remarks, as soon as the pandemic was declared an older adult disease and something to be preoccupied by, on Twitter all of a sudden we saw the BoomerRemover hashtag and things like that. We've witnessed during the pandemic that ageism is certainly present, even in new ways that weren't there, like needing to take care of them, but they're so passive and they're not active, it's.... Yes.AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1610)[English]I totally agree with that analysis. In response to that, do you have recommendations on how to create societies and systems that aren't ageist and to put those systems in place?AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1610)[English]It's a complex question. Certainly, at the National Seniors Council, we are just starting our work on ageism. It was one of our priorities in the last work plan and we are carrying that priority into our new workload as well, because we have ongoing work that's happening there.As far as recommendations go, again, I think it's to have that link that we're able to apply and to look at new policies and programs and at our discourse, the vocabulary we use, and to be conscious of that: to understand what ageism is, first of all, and to be conscious of it. I would certainly say create a lot of awareness around it as well. A lot of people and even we gerontologists will say things sometimes, and we'll stop ourselves and say, “Oh, that was so ageist on my part to say that.” It's sort of part of that regular vocabulary we use, and all of a sudden you have to stop yourself and say that there's a better way to say that, that there's a positive way to say it as well. AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1610)[English]Because I have a limited amount of time, I will ask about Canada Post and one of the programs that they wanted to offer needing to be supported by the federal government in regard to social isolation of seniors [Technical difficulty—Editor] while they're doing their postal routes.I'm wondering, Mr. Kuperman, if you could speak to that.Maybe you can add to it as well, Madam Dupuis-Blanchard.I think it's a great idea. It's an idea that I certainly support. I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on it.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySuzanneDupuis-BlanchardVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1610)[English]Yes, I think that would be a terrific initiative. Indeed, there are only a few professions, a few occupations, that get physical access to just about every locale, every house and every domicile in our country. Canada Post would be a great candidate for that.I will just add to the entire discussion that, as a country, whatever we invest now in the public awareness programs or educational programs that fight ageism will be an investment that goes way beyond the end of the pandemic. The problem did not begin with COVID-19, and ageism unfortunately will not go away.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1615)[English]Thank you very much.Madam Dupuis-Blanchard, do you have anything to add about Canada Post?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityVictorKupermanSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1615)[English]I think that would be a great idea. In my own work on aging in place, we've started to explore that. We have retired employees from Canada Post in our community, and they were telling us that we really should look into this because they know it would work. Even newspaper carriers who go door to door have an access that others do not have, as does anybody who goes door to door or does regular check-ins with older adults.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English] Thank you, Ms. Gazan.SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1615)[English]Thank you so much.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Next, Mr. Tochor, please go ahead for five minutes.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor (Saskatoon—University, CPC): (1615)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you, witnesses, for what you have shared today and for your work during the pandemic and the public service that you're doing representing an important segment of our population, which I think, especially during the first and second wave, was overlooked. Unfortunately, the pandemic has ravaged the senior population more than any other segment, whether in terms of actual direct effects of COVID or indirectly in suffering during the restrictions. I think as a country we should have bubble-wrapped our seniors and supported them a lot better than we have.I'd like to hear from both of you whether you have individual stories about seniors who have passed away, unfortunately, from COVID and how the grieving process has changed during a pandemic and all the restrictions. Do you have any individual stories you'd like to share?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1615)[English]I can share one personally, not from my own family but from research we did on caregivers who had a relative in long-term care who they hadn't been able to visit. We heard from a designated care person who was allowed to go in how difficult it was to not be able to have the full family support there. They recognized that their relative was at the end of life. That's already a difficult experience, with the grief and with preparing for that stage in life, but to be limited to doing it with only the staff there and maybe one additional person who was able to access the long-term care facility, for example, while the other family members either tried to be at the window or were just at a distance.... It's that lack of presence and that lack of humanness as well. That's what they were sharing with us. They said, “We knew mom was going to die and it's not that it was a surprise; it's the fact that she did it with only me and my sister there and that the others were just not being part of it.”This caregiver said, “I actually feel privileged that I was the one to be there, because that's part of my grieving process”, but the other family members who weren't able to be there are living a very different grieving process, and it makes it very, very difficult.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1615)[English]Before we hear Victor's comments on this, have you heard of more seniors turning, unfortunately, to MAID? There have been media reports that seniors are just giving up. Getting vaccines into the province or into the country has been too slow. Have you heard of that?COVID-19Medical assistance in dyingPandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1615)[English]I've not heard of requesting or thinking about MAID, but I have certainly heard of seniors wanting to stop eating.COVID-19Medical assistance in dyingPandemicSenior citizensCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1615)[English]That's unfortunate.Victor.SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1615)[English] I would just add one personal story. I have a friend who works in a long-term care facility. What she told me was that the seniors who were, unfortunately, in their terminal stages were trying to make arrangements to be on the first floor of that facility because that allows window access. They could see their loved ones. This makes a lot of difference for them. There's a sad aspect both, of course, for those who pass away and for their families. The grieving has multiplied.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1620)[English]Victor, have you heard of, unfortunately, more people accessing MAID in some of your studies?COVID-19Medical assistance in dyingPandemicSenior citizensVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1620)[English]I've not directly, but that is something I will definitely start paying attention to.COVID-19Medical assistance in dyingPandemicSenior citizensCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1620)[English]I appreciate that.I understand that you have a study coming out shortly on the loneliness and the aspects of mental health in seniors during these trying times.Just quickly, have you heard of many seniors who are waiting to access surgical care or health care outside of COVID concerns?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1620)[English]Yes. Health care and the health situation is a very common topic. It's the most prevalent topic in the linguistic analysis that we're conducting.What we did not expect was how much health care outside of COVID-19 was being talked about. Delays, postponed surgeries and postponed care are very much at the forefront of seniors' minds.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1620)[English] I'm very concerned about the health care system, because we know that a huge backlog of care needs to be provided. The provinces will be stretched to the limit once we're on the back end and we finally get enough second doses out there. There will be immense pressure on the health care sector.Thank you again for the work you do.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careVictorKupermanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Tochor.Mr. Dong, you have five minutes, please.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.): (1620)[English]Thank you very much, Chair. I want to thank the witnesses for coming to the committee today.Dr. Dupuis-Blanchard, I have a quick follow-up on MP Tochor's question with regard to long-term care. After the release of the report by our military on project Laser, what kind of response or feedback did you receive from the NSC? Canadian ForcesCOVID-19Long-term careOperation LASERPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1620)[English]I can certainly share reactions from the members. Of course, we were quite concerned. It certainly fed into the report we were preparing at that time on COVID and older adults. I can't say that we were fully surprised. I think many of us who have been in the sector of aging and long-term care for a while knew that conditions were deteriorating even before COVID. I think COVID highlighted some situations that were there and probably worsened other situations.We remain concerned. We're talking about quality of life here, no matter where seniors live, be it in the community or in long-term care. When we see those [Technical difficulty—Editor] really fuelled some of our recommendations and the advice that we provided. That will be made public very soon. So yes, definitely.Canadian ForcesCOVID-19Long-term careOperation LASERPandemicSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1620)[English]Did any recommendation on what the federal government can do going forward stand out for you?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1620)[English]We always come back to the long-term care standards, to not only developing them but also making sure that they're able to be implemented. Make the conditions correct that they are able to be implemented. We know that it's an FPT matter and it's at different levels, but we definitely need to find a way to be able to develop long-term care standards and also implement them, which will be the most important part.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1620)[English]Thank you.Professor Kuperman, do you have any comments or suggestions on this?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1620)[English]Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with that report.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1620)[English]I want to talk about something that you are familiar with. You mentioned that we know for a fact that seniors feel happier when they're aging at home with their family, community and neighbours. Can you tell us a little bit about what social isolation does to a senior's physical health?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1620)[English]Yes. At some level, social isolation gives fewer reasons for a person to move. It's all about mobility. My work is mostly about social mobility and communication. This is about the drive to exercise, the drive to go out, to leave the bed, which is undermined if a person is isolated. They have fewer reasons to move in order to stay healthy.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1625)[English]I have to share with you that in my family line, a few people at the end of of their lives were patients of dementia. Is there a direct or indirect link between social isolation and dementia?COVID-19DementiaPandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1625)[English]What helps fight dementia is exercising the mind and the body. On the mind side, the fewer chances there are to communicate, to do intellectual work and to do cognitive training, the faster the dementia progresses. On the physical level, it's very similar too.COVID-19DementiaPandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1625)[English]Dr. Dupuis-Blanchard, you talked about the new horizons program. We've seen $25,000 awarded to organizations like the National Resource Center on LGBT Aging, Diversity 101 and Alzheimer Society of Prince Edward Island. The seniors who identify as a member of the LGBTQ2+ community faced different additional challenges during the pandemic. Do you have any views on what else the government can do to support them?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSexual minoritiesSocial marginalityVictorKupermanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English] Answer as concisely as possible, if you could, please.HanDongDon Valley NorthSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1625)[English]Yes.Maybe not precisely, but we certainly are aware that they are a group of seniors who are more at risk of social isolation, especially with COVID. Seniors who identify as LGBTQ often say that they go back in the closet when they reach a certain age. They feel that it's not as accepted. I think there's work to do around that.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSexual minoritiesSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1625)[English]Thank you.SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Dong.[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.HanDongDon Valley NorthLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1625)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Ms. Dupuis‑Blanchard, a Coalition pour la dignité des aînés representative who met with us on Tuesday spoke about a possible solution for seniors. We know that seniors want to stay in their homes longer. This was true even before the pandemic. He told us that one way for the federal government to help directly would be to provide additional support to adapt homes or living quarters so that people can live more independently and remain in their homes.Do you think that this would be a good solution?COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1625)[Translation]Yes, certainly. I often see in my personal work on home support that all aspects of housing are very important.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1625)[Translation]Quebec has passed legislation on the abuse of seniors and vulnerable adults. I had the pleasure of participating in the parliamentary commission on this issue. This legislation is quite [Technical difficulty—Editor]. I don't know whether this exists in the other provinces.How can the federal government address these issues?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensVulnerable personsSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1625)[Translation]These are often issues involving the law and crime. The authorities often tell us that the law doesn't protect them when they want to move forward with certain complaints received. I think that there could be a legislative review in this area.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1625)[Translation]Do you think that the federal government could improve or strengthen some current programs, rather than creating new ones?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1625)[Translation]Yes, certainly. You're making an important point. The issue of abuse is addressed in various federal programs. I think that it's a matter of identifying them and combining them in order to make a range of support measures available.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1625)[Translation]Our committee's work seeks to paint a picture of the situation of seniors and vulnerable people. We want to know how they fared during the crisis. However, we're also thinking a great deal about the recovery.In terms of isolation, we're hoping that the lifting of the lockdown and the vaccinations will help restore some normalcy. We're trying to determine how things look for the future and how we can directly help seniors navigate through life.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English]The last questions will be posed by Ms. Gazan, please. Ms. Gazan, you have the next two and a half minutes.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1630)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.My last question is for Madam Dupuis-Blanchard, and perhaps Mr. Kuperman could respond to this one as well.I'm wondering how you feel the government is doing in terms of mandating Canada's commitment to the implementation in Canada of healthy aging policies as set out by the World Health Organization. How are we doing in Canada with that?I'll start with you, Madam Dupuis-Blanchard, and then follow up with Mr. Kuperman.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1630)[English]Thank you for that question.The National Seniors Council is indirectly involved, I can say. My understanding is that the Public Health Agency of Canada is currently working on how to best align with the Decade of Healthy Ageing. The Public Health Agency of Canada is part of the work that we do at the council, and there have been discussions and some back and forth on that. My understanding is that they are working on Canada's commitment to the Decade of Healthy Ageing.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreVictorKupermanVictorKupermanVictor-KupermanInterventionDr. Victor Kuperman: (1630)[English] I will add that from what we've seen in our studies of public messaging and federal messaging, the commitment is there, the alignment between federal policies and the broader context takes place.That's what I can comment on.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1630)[English]How critical do you think it is for us to move quickly on this, especially in light of COVID and what we found out during COVID, or what we already knew but was highlighted during COVID?AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensVictorKupermanSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSuzanne-Dupuis-BlanchardInterventionDr. Suzanne Dupuis-Blanchard: (1630)[English]I think it aligns very well with some of the priorities that even the council is working on. When we look at the components of the Decade of Healthy Ageing, it talks about healthy communities, about ageism, and many of these are issues that are currently discussed. I think it would be quite...I want to say “easy”, but it's never easy. However, it would certainly align with some of the priorities that are being discussed currently.AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1630)[English]Thank you so much.SuzanneDupuis-BlanchardSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.Thank you to our witnesses today. Dr. Kuperman, thanks for your patience in working through the new reality that is Zoom and technology. To both of you, we very much appreciate the work that you do in your professional academic careers and your willingness to share that. It will be of great benefit to us in our work.We appreciate the patient and comprehensive way you've handled all the questions. Thanks for being with us.Colleagues, we're going to suspend for a couple of minutes to do the sound checks for the next panel. To our witnesses, you're welcome to stay, but you're free to leave. (1630)(1635)LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]I call the meeting back to order.We have one witness who is besieged with technical problems, but Mr. Prud'homme is in a position to deliver the opening statement for Réseau FADOQ and Ms, Tassé‑Goodman will join us when that is possible. We don't have the leisure to extend the meeting today, so we're going to proceed. We are continuing our study on the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.The following comments are for the benefit of the witnesses. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you're ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Interpretation is available at this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French.[Translation]When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you aren't speaking, your microphone should be on mute.I now want to welcome the witnesses to continue our discussion. They'll have five minutes to give their opening remarks. The committee members can then ask questions.(1640)[English]From the United Way of Canada, we have Debra Shime, vice-president of community initiatives.[Translation]I also want to welcome the representatives of the provincial secretariat of the Réseau FADOQ: Danis Prud'homme, director general, and Gisèle Tassé‑Goodman, president.It's a pleasure to see you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèle-Tassé-GoodmanInterventionMs. Gisèle Tassé-Goodman (President, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ): (1640)[Translation]Good afternoon.COVID-19PandemicRéseau FADOQSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[Translation]We'll conduct a sound check with Ms. Tassé‑Goodman. Ms. Shime can then begin her presentation.[English]If we could, let's do a sound check for Ms. Tassé-Goodman, Madam Clerk.GisèleTassé-GoodmanDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Danielle Widmer): (1640)[Translation]Can you speak for a few seconds, Ms. Tassé‑Goodman?SeanCaseyCharlottetownGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèle-Tassé-GoodmanInterventionMs. Gisèle Tassé-Goodman: (1640)[Translation]Okay.Good afternoon. Can you hear me properly?DanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1640)[Translation]Yes, that's fine.Thank you, Ms. Tassé‑Goodman.GisèleTassé-GoodmanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]We're going to start with Ms. Shime for five minutes, please.You have the floor.DanielleWidmerDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime (Vice-President, Community Initiatives, United Way Centraide Canada): (1640)[English] Good afternoon. Let me start by recognizing and thanking the committee and the government for the critical and important work you are doing to support people across Canada and to support the essential community services that are helping our families and communities.United Way Centraide is Canada's largest funder of vital community services. We focus on eliminating poverty and ensuring vulnerable Canadians have the support they need to build sustainable livelihoods.Each year United Way invests over $500 million to support over 3,500 organizations in over 5,000 communities across all provinces and territories. Of that, over $23 million is invested in specific seniors programs that help 330,000 people annually. In addition, we know that thousands of other seniors attend many other types of programs addressing such things as food security, disability services and general community well-being. With the support of our donors and corporate partners, we mobilized during the pandemic an additional $47 million, which aggregates both our initial investment in community and the government's investment.In June 2020, with the support of the federal government through the new horizons for seniors program, we rapidly expanded funding to over 870 organizations that supported isolated seniors. These programs offered a total of 1.3 million services to over 700,000 vulnerable seniors during the pandemic. They were offered by a network of community agencies in every province and territory. These programs were enabled to reconfigure existing services to meet public health guidelines, expand existing services and support previously underserved areas. Over the course of the last year, we also funded over 5,200 community service programs through the emergency community services fund, of which 2,000 were services specifically for seniors.To ensure that every person had access to services, with support from the federal government, we rapidly expanded our 211 navigation service to all regions of Canada so that every Canadian could get help finding the services in their community. The 211 service saw a staggering 39% increase in contacts over prior years. Many of those callers were and continue to be seniors or those seeking support for their [Technical difficulty—Editor] particularly vulnerable group. The extended shutdown of public activities affected the many community programs and services that those already vulnerable seniors relied on to combat isolation, build social networks, access culturally appropriate food, receive mental health support and stay active.United Ways worked with municipalities, public health entities, foundations and front-line agencies to coordinate pandemic community responses. We collectively mobilized quickly around community response tables to problem solve such things as how to maintain Meals on Wheels deliveries, transition in-person contact to phone check-ins, assist seniors with prescription and grocery delivery and pivot seniors to online gatherings to maintain vital social connections.Based on the context of each community, Centraides identified and responded to the needs of those who face barriers. Some of the barriers that we identified are living on a low income, being a member of a minority group or being over the age of 80. Those were identified as considerations of overall vulnerability. The most frequently funded programs were food and grocery support; outreach to prevent and address isolation, and hygiene and cleaning supports.I'd like to leave you today with five key takeaways.First, the last year has shown the level of innovation and agility that is possible within the community services sector. We do not want to lose that spirit of innovation and collaboration as we emerge from the pandemic.Second, it is important to focus on the role that caretakers play as part of the continuum of care. It is an essential part of our response going forward that caretakers have the supports they need to keep seniors safe, secure and healthy at home.Third, partnerships and collaborations have been the foundation of the innovation and response that we have seen over this past year. We can and should encourage collaboration and coordination between organizations, rather than foster competition. Seniors and their caregivers will be better off for it.Fourth, we would be remiss to not mention the disproportionate impact of COVID on communities of colour—Black, indigenous and South Asian specifically. Our efforts must double to address systemic racism and the barriers and inequities they create.Finally, one of the lessons for funders is the need for flexibility. Local leadership knows what they need, and with the right supports they will find the right solutions. We expect that services are going to start costing more and that agencies will not be able to deliver the same level of services over the coming months. These organizations have stepped up during this crisis and they are under great stress. We need to help them maintain their operations.The United Way Centraide network remains committed to supporting seniors as Canada emerges from the third wave and as we turn our attention towards building back better. If we want a strong and equitable recovery that supports healthy aging, we need to support the community-based and community-led organizations that support seniors where they live.(1645) This is particularly true for seniors from the most marginalized communities, including Black and indigenous communities, and those living in vulnerable circumstances. I am happy to speak further to any of these issues, as requested.Thank you very much for your time and attention today. Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicRacialized communitiesSenior citizensUnited Way Centraide CanadaSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Thank you, Ms. Shime. [Translation]We'll now turn to Gisèle Tassé‑Goodman, president of the provincial secretariat of the Réseau FADOQ.Welcome to the committee, Ms. Tassé‑Goodman. You have the floor for five minutes.DebraShimeGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèle-Tassé-GoodmanInterventionMs. Gisèle Tassé-Goodman: (1645)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Parliamentarians, my name is Gisèle Tassé‑Goodman. I'm the president of the Réseau FADOQ. I'm joined by Danis Prud'homme, the director general of our organization. I want to thank the committee members for this invitation.The Réseau FADOQ consists of a group of people aged 50 and over. The group has nearly 550,000 members. Each time that we take political action, we want to help improve the quality of life of seniors.Sadly, seniors were the first victims of COVID‑19. The people who receive only old age security benefits and the guaranteed income supplement must live on less than $18,500 a year. It was hard enough to live on this income before. The onset of the health and social crisis exacerbated this financial distress, since prices for basic necessities increased. In addition, given the lockdown, many seniors temporarily lost their support network. This led to additional costs, especially for delivery services.In the end, the government provided a one‑time payment to seniors who were struggling to make ends meet last summer. Obviously, the Réseau FADOQ would have preferred that the government speed up the implementation of the old age security increase promised in 2019. This improvement was ultimately announced in the latest federal budget. Any improvement is welcome. However, the Réseau FADOQ believes that people aged 65 to 74 should also benefit from it. The government must review this proposal to avoid creating two classes of seniors.As president of the Réseau FADOQ, I must point out the elephant in the room. A great deal has been said about residential and long‑term care facilities. Many seniors have paid the price for a flawed health care system during this health and social crisis. In reality, the provinces are chronically underfunded by the federal government when it comes to health care.Granted, some money has been provided during the current crisis and the latest federal budget proposes investments in long‑term care. However, this support is neither recurring nor proportional. Health care funding takes up 40% of provincial and territorial budgets, while the Canadian government funds only 22% of the spending.According to the Conference Board of Canada, based on the current growth rate of the Canada health transfer, the federal share of health care funding will drop to less than 20% by 2026.The Réseau FADOQ is asking the federal government to increase the indexing of the Canada health transfer by 6% each year, in other words, to its pre‑2017 level.The Canada health transfer must also take into account the aging population of the provinces and territories.The COVID‑19 crisis has exposed significant shortcomings in terms of financial literacy and the affordability of Internet services. This reality has left many seniors doubly isolated, both physically and virtually.The Réseau FADOQ is actively working to strengthen digital literacy among its members through training workshops. This type of initiative deserves more government support.Moreover, Internet service packages are very expensive and seniors have limited incomes. The federal government must improve competition among service providers so that more affordable Internet packages are available to everyone.I want to thank the committee members for listening. Mr. Prud'homme will answer questions. However, I'll reserve the right to answer them as well.Thank you.COVID-19Health care systemLong-term carePandemicRéseau FADOQSenior citizensSocial benefitsSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[Translation]Thank you.We will begin the first round of questions and answers.Mr. Tochor, go ahead for six minutes.GisèleTassé-GoodmanCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1650)[English]I believe Brad is up on the schedule.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Mr. Vis, please. CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to both witnesses for appearing today.Ms. Shime, on the fourth point you raised, you said that the impact of COVID-19 on communities of colour was disproportionately more impactful. You mentioned the South Asian community. Can you explain what data you used to reach that conclusion, and how it impacted the South Asian community? I ask that because approximately 30% of the people I represent are of South Asian descent.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSouth Asian CanadiansSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1650)[English] Thank you so much for the question.In preparing our statement for today, we looked quite broadly at the communities that were adversely affected by COVID, and I would say that we know the South Asian community has been disproportionately affected overall in the pandemic, so we draw our conclusion from that. We're happy to provide you with some data and statistics following this meeting if that would be helpful for you.I would say that one of the things we do know is that many from the South Asian community who are working in essential work also live with combined families, so they were putting their families, including elders, at risk when they were coming home from the jobs that allowed all of us to eat and to get our prescriptions delivered and to get our food delivery and Amazon delivery and things like that. I think that's just drawing conclusions from what we know of the community, but I'm happy to provide additional information.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSouth Asian CanadiansBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1650)[English]That's actually very helpful. I know there are two groups in my community, the Filipino community and the Punjabi community especially, who work in long-term care, and there were local instances, just as you described.Was there anything particularly related to [Technical difficulty—Editor] impact in those communities, though, or was it just the fact that some of their family members who they're living with were taking COVID home because of the vulnerable situations they found themselves in while working?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSouth Asian CanadiansDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1650)[English]I would say it's the latter.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSouth Asian CanadiansBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1650)[English]Thank you so much. My riding is very rural with a large population base in the southern part. In the community of Boston Bar, one thing that came to mind during the pandemic was the lack of transportation. To get groceries, people have to go down the mountain passes to get to the community of Hope, which is outside of my riding, and they lost their community shuttle bus. Most of the people up there can't afford a vehicle. There's not a lot of money in that area. What has United Way found for seniors groups and seniors living in isolation in rural Canada during the pandemic? Do you have any thoughts on that point?COVID-19PandemicRural communitiesSenior citizensSocial marginalityDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1650)[English]I would say that there are a couple of things. I think my colleague here talked about interconnectivity, to have access online [Technical difficulty—Editor] and to get supports for mental health or to speak to your doctor or what have you. The transportation issue was huge. We also saw that in a lot of the rural communities there were additional costs for food, whether it was for delivering the food or that the actual cost of the food was higher, especially in more remote areas. The dollar has to stretch that much further for those seniors who are living in those remote and rural areas, but the lack of transportation is a significant issue. Also, you're farther away from your neighbours in rural and remote areas. I live in urban downtown and there are lots of supports locally. I can knock on my neighbour's door. In a rural and remote area, that's harder to do, so those natural communities of caring are harder to organize and manage in a rural or remote area.COVID-19PandemicRural communitiesSenior citizensSocial marginalityBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1655)[English]As it relates to this impact of COVID-19 on seniors, you mentioned the cost of food going up in rural areas. Has the increase in the cost of food through inflation had a negative impact on seniors?Cost of livingCOVID-19Food and drinkPandemicSenior citizensDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1655)[English]I can't speak specifically to that. Again, I'm happy to find information if that would be useful for you, but I think our experience in working and funding in the rural and remote areas was that not only was food more expensive, but there was also a supply-demand issue, right?For example, we had a lot of trouble getting—this is not to the food issue—technology to folks, because there were no iPads available. Everybody was saying, yes, they'll get seniors iPads and connect them, but it was really hard to get those, to purchase those in bulk, for some communities. I would say that generally, the cost of food went up and lower-income families struggled in rural and remote areas to be able to afford what they might previously have been able to pay for. Cost of livingCOVID-19Food and drinkPandemicSenior citizensBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1655)[English]Yes, I found that in the community of Lillooet, for example. There's only one place where you can purchase groceries. I heard from a number of my senior constituents that they can't afford to buy cauliflower anymore because of the inflation in the cost of groceries in those communities. For me, if I have to pay five or six dollars for a head of cauliflower, it's not that big a deal, but when you're a senior living on a fixed income, those price increases, which I think were much more heightened for essential food items like vegetables, are a real big deal when you're planning on only paying two dollars, for example, when you're living on a fixed income. Cost of livingCOVID-19Food and drinkPandemicPovertySenior citizensDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1655)[English] We know that low-income communities often struggle to afford healthy food. There may be food available, but it's not always the healthy fresh fruit and vegetables that you alluded to in your comment. I think that's an important factor as well.Cost of livingCOVID-19Food and drinkPandemicPovertySenior citizensBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1655)[English]Yes.Thank you so much for appearing today, Madam Goodman. I wish I had more time. I had a few questions for you as well.Thank you, Mr. Chair.DebraShimeSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]We might get back to you, Mr. Vis, for another turn.Mr. Long, you have six minutes, please.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long (Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.): (1655)[English]Thank you, Chair.Good afternoon to my colleagues.Thank you very much to our presenters. Those were very, very good presentations.Ms. Shime, I want to start by thanking you and United Way for the outstanding work and the service you deliver right across the country. Here in Saint John—Rothesay, the executive director is Alexya Heelis, who does a fantastic job. She's been in her role now for a little over a year.I want to talk first and foremost about the emergency community support fund, the $350 million that our government announced to support community organizations. An amount of $9 million went to United Way Centraide Canada for seniors. In my riding I think there were 22 applications, and 13 organizations received funding. One of them was Meals on Wheels in Saint John, which got a $12,000 grant. Meals on Wheels obviously provides hundreds of free meals for seniors who need that support, especially during the pandemic.That's a great example of the kind of service needed from community organizations who understand what seniors need. To continue the positive contribution to our society, how do we better leverage the work of such long-standing partners as United Way?Community organizationsCOVID-19Emergency Community Support FundPandemicSenior citizensUnited Way Centraide CanadaSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1655)[English]Thank you for that question. I really appreciate the feedback as well. For a relatively new ED in your local community to deliver in this year was quite extraordinary.I would say that we're really pleased to see that there's attention being paid to the charitable and non-profit sector in the budget for 2021. We welcome the announcement of the community services recovery fund, which is now focusing on modernizing and adapting and resilience in the community going forward. For that kind of resource to be successful and for us to work in partnership with government and others in the delivery of that, we want to make sure that the supports for longer-term change management for organizations to adapt are reasonable; that we have the supports for system-wide thinking around IT, fundraising and HR capacity; and that there is a role for national organizations to play along with intermediaries [Technical difficulty—Editor] CFC and CRC.We generally fund to the general operating costs, as the United Way, not project funding. More support for general operating costs from the federal government would certainly help ensure that organizations serving seniors and other vulnerable populations could continue to do their good work locally in the community and be really responsive to what's happening as we build back and come out of this third wave. We're really focused on that system-change thinking of how we as a sector can transform with the learnings we have gathered through the last year and a half.I hope I answered your question.Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensUnited Way Centraide CanadaWayneLongSaint John—RothesayWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long: (1700)[English]You did, and I thank you for that.In addition to the $9 million we funded through United Way Centraide Canada, we also allocated an additional $20 million in funding for new horizons for seniors programs. Obviously, we all know what new horizons does and the impact in all of our ridings. It helps organizations mobilize to help seniors through more community-based programs.Do you think this [Technical difficulty—Editor] investment and flexibility provided will help community organizations have the means to carry out projects?Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensUnited Way Centraide CanadaDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1700)[English]I can't speak specifically to the parameters of the $20 million that you're referring to, but I can say that I think the funds that the federal, provincial, regional and municipal governments contributed to ensure that services were continued and could be expanded and shifted through the pandemic were essential to all our collective responses across the country. That ongoing and sustained investment is really important as we move forward.As I said before, being a long-term funder in the community, we do really appreciate the flexibility for organizations to spend on the solutions and the programs that they feel are best suited for their communities, with as much flexibility as we can provide to organizations to use funds. The longer-term multi-year funding is always helpful to continue to build out those programs across the community over time.Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensUnited Way Centraide CanadaWayneLongSaint John—RothesayWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long: (1700)[English] Thank you for that.I read an article today. It was in the Delta Optimist. It is obviously B.C. based. The headline is, “United Way Healthy Aging connecting seniors through new digital project”. I will just quote some of the stats here:When the pandemic forced everyone into social isolation, many turned to technology to stay connected. This is true for seniors as much as for anyone. Research shows that device ownership and usage among older adults has grown markedly and 65 per cent of Canadians over 65 now own a smartphone and 83 per cent of them use it daily.Can you give us your comments on what we could do to help enhance that, to help keep seniors connected, especially with what we have seen over the last year?COVID-19Digital literacyPandemicSenior citizensDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1700)[English]We tend to clump seniors all together, and as I think I heard some of the previous folks on the panel speak to, there are different stages of aging, especially now. My father is 86, and he is using an iPad to do his hearings. He's a lawyer, and he's on his phone every day. I think we tend to generalize.There is an issue of ensuring connectivity and making sure there is connectivity available across the county, that it's affordable and accessible to all. That's a big piece of what I think the federal government can support.I also think there's training and education at the local level for seniors who may not have the facility to work with digital technology.Adult education and trainingCOVID-19Digital literacyInternetPandemicSenior citizensWayneLongSaint John—RothesayWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long: (1700)[English]I will just jump in.Is the United Way doing this in other areas across the country or is this a pure pilot project?The Chair: Can you respond very quickly, please? We are out of time.COVID-19Digital literacyPandemicSenior citizensDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1700)[English]Yes. What you're speaking to is a very specific project, but across the country, I would say United Ways have been deeply involved in ensuring that seniors and other vulnerable populations have access to technology, have the connectivity, have the training and support, and equally important, that the community agencies that are providing the services have the infrastructure to support them and that they themselves are equipped. We often forget that those organizations need that infrastructure and that ongoing support, as well, so they can reach those seniors. It's not just about the seniors having it.Those are all important pieces of the puzzle to ensure that we can continue to reach vulnerable seniors who are living at home or in congregate care.Mr. Wayne Long: Thank you for your time.COVID-19Digital literacyPandemicSenior citizensWayneLongSaint John—RothesaySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Long.(1705)[Translation]Ms. Chabot, the floor is yours for six minutes.DebraShimeLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses. Engaged individuals have provided us with good testimony with a lot of depth. That really helps us in our work.My question is for the Réseau FADOQ representatives, Ms. Tassé‑Goodman or Mr. Prud'homme.As everyone knows, you have been putting in a lot of effort, especially in the public arena. You also participated in a meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance, following the recent federal budget announcement concerning the old age security pension increase, which will be available to people aged 75 and over starting in 2022. Like you, we feel that this will create two classes of seniors. I have even said that it would be a first, as the old age security pension applies once people turn 65.I would like you to explain the impact of this measure, which will create two groups of seniors.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèle-Tassé-GoodmanInterventionMs. Gisèle Tassé-Goodman: (1705)[Translation]I will first answer and will then yield the floor to Mr. Prud'homme, so he can complete my answer.Thank you for the question.I would begin by saying that social inclusion is paramount for healthy aging. For example, the growing price of gas is quite real for everyone, and it is even more difficult for people who are receiving the guaranteed income supplement and the old age security pension. Increasing the old age security pension by 10% starting at age 75 creates inequality among seniors. A number of seniors have been saying this to us.Rent also increases every year, and that affects people aged 65 and over, as it does those aged 75 and over. The grocery bill has also increased a lot. I was told that a dozen eggs no longer cost the same as they did one or two years ago. The price of fruits and vegetables has increased dramatically. The grocery bill is a heavy burden for people aged 65 and over, as it is for those aged 75 and over.In many cases, there are more widowed women than widowed men among those aged 65 and over. Those women often become caretakers for their aging parents. Therefore, that means those women are deprived of income because they dedicate their time to taking care of their aging parents' health.In many other cases, as well, men and women—but especially women—stayed at home to raise their children and take care of their education. They have not participated in the labour market, which means they have very low or no pension funds.Those people start receiving the old age security pension and the guaranteed income supplement at 65 years of age, and they live with very little money—$18,500 a year. That's very little money to live on. That is why Réseau FADOQ is calling for the 10% increase to be provided to all seniors aged 65 and over, unconditionally.Mr. Prud'homme, do you want to add anything?Cost of livingCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsWomenLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme (Director General, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ): (1705)[Translation]I would add that this creates dichotomy.The government said it wanted to help the neediest people, as expenses were higher for those aged 75 and over. However, the wrong approach was used. The reason is simple: when old age security is increased, a claimant can receive that higher pension until their annual income reaches $77,000. So the wrong approach was used.If the government really wanted to help those who need money and were in need, it should have increased the guaranteed income supplement.That is why we are saying that a general increase must be provided, and not only for those aged 75 and over. Otherwise, two classes of seniors will really be created.COVID-19PandemicRéseau FADOQSenior citizensSocial benefitsGisèleTassé-GoodmanLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1705)[Translation]Thank you.In the recent budget, the government presented a number of assistance measures to support the provinces. I think that is tantamount to interference in provincial matters, but I am not asking you to comment on this. I am thinking of considerations such as home care and the imposing of national health standards. However, that care comes under provincial jurisdiction.Do you think those one-time payments, which we do not underestimate, are pushing aside money that could be permanent, a real health transfer covering 35% of the spending?COVID-19Health care systemPandemicSenior citizensDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1710)[Translation]Thank you for the question.Yes, one-time payments do not solve the issue; they just push it forward.We must plan for the future. I will use the example of people aged 85 and over, as they generally need the most care. In 2011, they were 150,000. They will be 600,000 between 2031 and 2041. That number will then increase further to reach 700,000. If we cannot take care of people who need care today, how will one-time payments enable us to plan properly?That is why we are asking for a 6% increase to get back to where we were before. We are mostly asking for indexing to be introduced and for an aging criterion to be set, so the provinces with the oldest populations can take better care of those people.COVID-19Health care systemPandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Prud’homme and Ms. Chabot.[English] Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.DanisPrud'hommeLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1710)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.My first questions are for Réseau. In response to the Liberal government's announcement about increasing the payment to seniors over the age of 74 and excluding seniors age 65 to 74, you joined forces with the Canadian Association of Retired Persons and the National Association of Federal Retirees, collectively representing more than one million seniors, to call out the federal government on this.You called for raising the old age security benefit by 10% for all eligible seniors. Can you tell us why you called for this change and how you arrived at this number?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1710)[Translation]Yes, of course. Thank you for the question.It is actually very simple. The government put forward the argument that it wanted to help seniors who were most in need. That is why this measure focused on seniors aged 75 and over.However, we feel that this measure will not help only those in need, as people are entitled to the old age security pension until their annual income reaches $77,000. Had the government really wanted to help people in need, it should have increased the guaranteed income supplement generally, for seniors aged 65 and over.For starters, old age security makes no distinction among age groups; the minimum age of 65 is the only consideration. Now that the decision has been made to split old age security in two, two classes of seniors have been created. Unfortunately, that decision is a major mistake, as it will not help those most in need.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1710)[English]When you say the most needed, can you expand on that?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1710)[Translation]In fact, those who need it the most are those whose only income comes from old age security and the guaranteed income supplement. Their annual income is about $18,500.According to the market basket measure, people should have an income between $19,500 and $21,000, depending on where they live, and that amount is just enough to survive.In addition to not helping those who need help the most, increasing the old age security pension only for seniors aged 75 and over will benefit many people who do not need that increase right now.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèle-Tassé-GoodmanInterventionMs. Gisèle Tassé-Goodman: (1710)[Translation]In light of what Mr. Prud’homme just said, let me add that people receiving old age security and the guaranteed income supplement are struggling to pay for their medication and cover their grocery bill at the end of the month. Some have even told me that, when they get to the checkout, they would remove items from their grocery basket. They also don't have the means to pay for dental hygiene appointments. They have to pay increasingly high bills for rent, communications and support materials, among other things. Those are all important goods and services that guaranteed income supplement claimants cannot afford, as they have an annual income of $18,500. Everything becomes a luxury for them.COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsDanisPrud'hommeLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1715)[English]I agree with both of you, and I have deep concerns about the level of poverty in which seniors in this country, including women, live. We often talk about seniors working their whole lives. Many women worked at home and don't benefit from pension plans, and many women, particularly seniors, live in poverty. There are certainly heightened rates of poverty among certain groups, such as Black and indigenous people and people of colour.In saying that, one of the things I put forward in this past session was a motion in support of a guaranteed livable basic income in addition to programs and support. This means taking the current guaranteed income and making it livable, in addition to providing other programs and support. Unfortunately, our bill in support of universal pharmacare was voted down. Do you think that putting in place a guaranteed livable basic income, in addition to current and future government programs and supports, would be a game-changer for seniors in this country?COVID-19PandemicPovertySenior citizensSocial benefitsGisèleTassé-GoodmanDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1715)[Translation]Thank you for the question.In briefs we have submitted to the government when we appeared before other committees, we suggested three different possibilities. For instance, the market basket measure could be adjusted by 7% or, as you just said, an adequate income could be established as defined by IRIS, the Institut de recherche et d'informations socioéconomique. So possibilities do exist. It is a fact that not everything has been taken into consideration.For people with a low income or low savings, we have even asked the federal government not to tax the money they withdraw from their RRSPs for eye care or dental care. We have been asking for this for a number of years, but the federal government has still not responded.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English] Thank you, Ms. Gazan.[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Prud'homme.DanisPrud'hommeLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1715)[English]Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Next we have Mr. Tochor, please, for five minutes. LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1715)[English]Thank you, Chair. Today, we are talking a lot about the different classes of seniors, unfortunately, that the last budget changed. We were discussing the OAS increase. Ms. Tassé-Goodman, you brought it up, but we didn't talk about the GIS. Would you agree that it would be fairer to increase the GIS versus the OAS?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1715)[Translation]Thank you for the question.Had the government wanted to take care of those most in need both among people aged 65 to 74 and those aged 75 and over, it should have used this approach.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1715)[English]Ms. Tassé-Goodman.DanisPrud'hommeGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèle-Tassé-GoodmanInterventionMs. Gisèle Tassé-Goodman: (1715)[Translation]What our organization's director general just said is true. At the very least, the guaranteed income supplement should have been increased by $50 a month because it goes to the less fortunate.In any case, as Mr. Prud'homme said previously, when old age security claimants have an annual income from $77,000 to $120,000—I no longer recall the exact numbers—there is a return. The amount is not the same for someone who receives $30,000 as for a person receiving more than $75,000.So we are asking the federal government to at least increase the guaranteed income supplement by $50 a month, for the less fortunate.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1715)[English]That supports some of the reports we are hearing in the media about the pandemic relief having gone to the most well off versus going to families and seniors who need help the most. That's where I question why that was done and especially for that age group. My office has been talking with seniors, and it's more the younger seniors who are in tougher financial situations than the older seniors. You'll find low-income seniors in every age group. If you were going to design a program.... Let's think about those who are under 75 years of age versus the ones who are older, It's not just the years they would have worked, and perhaps accumulated more savings; it's the lower-income seniors who are retiring or have retired in the last five years for whom I feel the worst. The last time our country was facing runaway inflation, they experienced hyperinflation with fewer dollars. They had more debt, such as mortgages. What occurred was that once interest rates skyrocketed for those individuals back in the 1980s, their savings accounts were negatively affected by inflation more so than older seniors. For older seniors who went through that time period and were fortunate enough to have had work at that time, they were actually better off. I question why the Liberals have drawn that line and made two different classes. It brings up the point of inflation, and you talked about it before. What are you hearing from seniors anecdotally? The cost of living is up. They're making different decisions. I'd like to hear if you have some first-hand stories of what decisions seniors are making, because of inflation and the increase in the cost of living.Cost of livingCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèleTassé-GoodmanGisèle-Tassé-GoodmanInterventionMs. Gisèle Tassé-Goodman: (1720)[Translation]Mr. Prud'homme, I will let you answer.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1720)[Translation]There are actually several considerations.The number of choices seniors must make is growing for two reasons.First, the cost of groceries has increased tremendously, according to what we have been told, as has the cost of grocery deliveries, as seniors are no longer mobile in some cases.Second, seniors have found themselves isolated. They no longer had visits, and so they no longer had help, either. The lack of access to technology has also contributed to their isolation. In more remote regions, where there was no [technical difficulties]. In some villages, grocery stores, Canada Post offices and bank branches closed their doors. Finally, seniors found themselves even more isolated and even poorer, and that has resulted in additional costs.Cost of livingCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityGisèleTassé-GoodmanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English] Thank you, Mr. Tochor.We're going to Mr. Vaughan for five minutes.DanisPrud'hommeAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan (Spadina—Fort York, Lib.): (1720)[English]It's great to see the Conservatives supporting the boost to the guaranteed income supplement. They voted against it, of course, when we did it in the last mandate, which was a landmark move to help reduce seniors poverty. I'm glad they're coming on board to understand that seniors need this help now.I'd like to ask Deb Shime about some of the collective efforts and the individual efforts. Of course, individual transfers are important, but Dr. Kuperman from McMaster was here earlier as a witness. He said that there was a real pivot point at the end of August and the beginning of September in terms of major indicators that he was following around seniors health. This is interesting, because in the first wave of support for seniors in the pandemic, we increased direct transfers to seniors, but we were convinced by the provinces that they needed support, too, so we did a block transfer with the safe restart agreement that kicked in for September. It was a $22-billion transfer to the provinces.Did you receive funding from provincial governments at that point to sustain and extend your services through the safe restart agreements?COVID-19Government assistancePandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1720)[English]We did not at United Way Centraide. We're the national office, and I can't speak to it. We can gather that information from our United Way locals to see if they received any provincial funding for services in their community.COVID-19Government assistancePandemicSenior citizensAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1720)[English]Direct transfers for long-term care were part of that block funding as well. Doug Ford, in our province of Ontario, boasted that he was going to put an “iron ring” around long-term care with these new federal dollars, but we saw even worse results in the second wave than we saw in the first wave. The only real iron ring that was put around seniors residences was a legal one, which prevents families from suing for neglect of care. Did you see any long-term care specific engagements from the provinces or were we better to spend our money directly with front-line services than with transfers to provinces?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1725)[English]As I referenced in my comments, we really work with seniors living at home, so my area of expertise and the information I gather from our locals do not address the issues and challenges of long-term care. I would leave that for others who are better equipped to speak to that specifically.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1725)[English]On aging in place, there are some who say we should do direct transfers to individuals through CPP and OAS and just send people individual cheques. In terms of seniors, we also heard that the collective action—engagement in social settings, physical activity, being checked-in—and the community care were as critical to seniors' health and outcomes. In that regard, is it just a question of transfers or a question of dollar amounts being sent in cheques, or do we need to also build systems that provide additional supports to help people age in place?COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1725)[English]Thanks for the question.Yes, I think my comment alluded to the fact that we need to continue to support the community-led community organizations across the country in order for them to have the infrastructure and the adaptive programming to respond to and to support seniors living at home and their families—their caregivers explicitly.Creating that fabric of a network of organizations across the community is essential, and not only for those organizations and their services. They're often the ones to support and engage volunteers in being active in their community.We want seniors aging at home as much as they possibly can, and we need to build the infrastructure to support them. Many times, that comes through organizations [ Technical difficulty—Editor].Community organizationsCOVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1725)[English]If you have mobility issues, you may have a cheque to go to the grocery store, but if you can't get up or down the stairs to get to the kitchen or out of the house to get to the supermarket, if you don't have the supports around to realize the menu, there's no point in having money if you can't get to the grocery store or cook and clean afterwards.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensDebraShimeDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1725)[English] I would use 211, which is a helpline across the country, as a perfect example of why we call ourselves “human services”. It is a phone line. You can also go on and search—somebody like me can go on and search for a service, come up with some solutions and make some calls. A senior might need help even prioritizing what the issues they have are. They can often work through that by talking to a live person to navigate which services and where to go. That individual can also identify if those seniors are in need of support. The human part of the human services sector is really essential to ensuring that people can live and to supporting the continuum of care that's needed for seniors in our community. COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1725)[English]On the individual transfers, people talk about the guaranteed income supplement. We, of course, boosted that by 10%. They don't talk about the GST rebates. That was about $400 per person across the country, which is also a direct transfer to individuals. Now, as well, there is the new top-up for people over the age of 75. All of these measures collectively.... Madam Tassé-Goodman, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what cheque from the government becomes bigger. What matters is that the household contribution grows. Whether it's CPP, OAS, GIS, the GST rebate or even the refund on a price on pollution, as long as all of the federal transfers to individuals increase, seniors do better. It doesn't need to be one or the other. COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsDebraShimeSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[Translation]Please provide a brief answer.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1725)[Translation]Basically, it is true that all this improves the situation of seniors, but only as long as no age–based discrimination is taking place. Unfortunately, that is the case here.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Prud'homme.[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.We have a couple of minutes left. I'm going to suggest one question each.[Translation]So Ms. Chabot and Ms. Gazan could each ask a question.Ms. Chabot, do you have one last question to ask?DanisPrud'hommeLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1725)[Translation]Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.Ms. Shime, you said something important in your testimony concerning assistance for community support. You were saying that assistance should be provided according to organizations' missions, their autonomy and their needs. As far as I understand your testimony, support programs should be very flexible, so that they could be adapted to all organizations, which can differ from one another.Did I understand correctly?COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebraShimeDebraShimeDebra-ShimeInterventionMs. Debra Shime: (1725)[English]I think one of the benefits of the way we collectively responded through this pandemic was the great flexibility. Funders, government included, stepped up and asked local leaders to tell them what they needed and how they need to spend those funds. That allowed that creativity to happen at the local level. We do not want to lose that. It is really essential for us to be able to locally solve the problems that are in front of us and to work with the many experts in those communities to figure out what the best programmatic and other supports are for ensuring that seniors can live at home. COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English]Thank you, Ms. Shime. The last question is for you, Ms. Gazan. You have the last word. DebraShimeLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1730)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'll follow up with Réseau FADOQ. I spoke to you about a guaranteed livable income. Part of the reason I discussed that is I really believe that a lot of seniors in the country don't live in dignity. They're not given what they need to live in dignity.I'm wondering if you could provide some further thoughts and speak a little bit about what you believe is creating age-friendly care environments. What are your thoughts about aging in place?COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownDanisPrud'hommeDanisPrud'hommeDanis-Prud-hommeInterventionMr. Danis Prud'homme: (1730)[Translation]Thank you for the question.First, if a country wants to have a user–friendly society in terms of care, it must focus the care on aging. That is what experts and the World Health Organization are saying, but that is unfortunately not being done or too much time is being taken to do it.Second, if we want seniors to live at home, they must be provided with care at home. Unfortunately, that was no longer possible during the pandemic, and we have seen their health deteriorate. So budgets must be reversed: more funding must be provided for home care and less must be invested in curative care—in other words, hospitals.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Prud'homme.[English] Thank you to all of our witnesses for being with us today. The United Way is very prominent right across the country, not just in seniors programs but in many others. We very much appreciate the work that you do and for being with us. [Translation] Réseau FADOQ is a very important partner in the province of Quebec. We thank you for your work in your province and in your communities.We also thank you for your testimony today. I know that your group is often invited to committee meetings, and for good reason.Thank you very much.[English]Colleagues, do we have consent to adjourn? I see that there is consent in the room. Thank you. We'll see you next week. Have a good weekend, everyone. The meeting is adjourned.DanisPrud'homme//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.)): (1530)[English] I call the meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 37 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 2, 2021, the committee will proceed to its study of the impact of COVID‑19 on seniors.I'd like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions. Appearing today, as an individual, is Dr. Veronique Boscart, executive dean, School of Health and Life Sciences at Conestoga College; and from the Centre of Aging, we have Dr. Michelle Porter, professor and director at the University of Manitoba.For the benefit of our witnesses, I will just make a couple of other comments.Interpretation is available in this video conference. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.We're going to start with Dr. Boscart for five minutes, please.Welcome to the committee. You have the floor.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeronique-BoscartInterventionDr. Veronique Boscart (Executive Dean, School of Health and Life Sciences, Conestoga College, As an Individual): (1535)[English] Thank you.My name is Dr. Veronique Boscart. I'm going to start off by stating that I am a registered nurse. I've been a registered nurse in long-term care for over 25 years, and I've worked throughout the COVID‑19 pandemic on good and bad days. I'm also in my second five-year term of the CIHR/Schlegel industrial research chair for colleges in seniors care, which means that I hold a national research chair focusing on workforce, staffing and training related to those caring for seniors in our country. Within that portfolio, I conduct pragmatic intervention research to really optimize life and care for seniors and their families both in long-term care as well as in retirement and home care.I also hold the role of executive director at the Canadian Institute for Seniors Care. With that group, we develop tailored training for the future and existing workforce in seniors care. Most of our work is focused in Ontario.Last, I'm the executive dean at the School of Health and Life Sciences at Conestoga. There we have focused our strategic mandates on optimizing education and training, as well as innovation in research for our health care providers. We are very committed to raising and bringing into place a generation of health care providers who can recognize and address the needs of our seniors and their care partners in our community.I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today on the needs of seniors in Canada.As you're aware, seniors age 65-plus are the fastest-growing population and are more likely to have chronic complex conditions and they [Technical difficulty—Editor] support from a health care team [Technical difficulty—Editor] communities. The COVID‑19 pandemic really highlighted the gaps in our care system, so I think, unfortunately, Canada is the country with the highest mortality rate in long-term care homes. I can personally testify to the detrimental effect that has had not only on our country, but also on our workforce, our families, our loved ones and our communities. Now more than ever is a time to critically reassess the design and the way we provide our services for seniors, as well as how we are educating the future workforce on how we deliver current care practices to our seniors. There are many reports available on that. I'm happy to provide more detailed information when answering your questions. There's never been a better time than now to really cause a change in our long-term care and health care systems.I am more than delighted to contribute further, and I pass it back to the chair.Thank you.COVID-19Health care systemLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[English]Thank you, Dr. Boscart.Next we are going to hear from Dr. Porter for five minutes, please.Dr. Porter, you have the floor.VeroniqueBoscartMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter (Professor and Director, University of Manitoba, Centre on Aging): (1535)[English] Thank you for the invitation to speak today.I am the director of the Centre on Aging at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg. Our centre has existed since 1982 and is the focal point for research and knowledge mobilization on aging in Manitoba.The first issue I would like to discuss is access to information and services specific to the pandemic. One example here includes the fact that most resources, information and booking systems, etc., have relied on web-based systems. Whether it was finding out about where testing locations were or when to get vaccinated, this information is typically provided as a website. In the short term, we need to ensure that access to information is available through the phone as well. Phone numbers need to be highly publicized, through COVID press conferences, for example. If you don't have access to the Internet, how do you find the phone numbers?We applaud the federal government for providing funding to add a phone line to the Manitoba 211 services. This is a needed service in the short term. In the long term, we need to find ways so that everyone has access to the Internet. This requires physical infrastructure. It also requires that everyone can afford the equipment and services, regardless of where they live and what their income is. Access to Internet is critical for long-term care as well. In many homes, Wi-Fi did not exist or was not sufficient, so including this in standards for long-term care would be important. Every resident room and common room in a long-term care home should have good Wi-Fi.Another access issue that has been quite apparent is transportation. Age-friendly transportation and affordable resources are lacking in many locations, particularly intercommunity transportation. This has affected access to COVID testing and vaccinations. If aging in place is a goal for governments, then we have to ensure that communities are age friendly in terms of transportation.One tragic story in Winnipeg occurred when a family had to pay for a stretcher service to bring their bed-bound father to a vaccination site. An age-friendly community would find ways to ensure that the environment can enable that person to live in a non-institutional setting and still receive services.Another long-term care issue is related to quality of life. Clearly, there is not enough recreation staff in long-term care. These workers, primarily women, who are key to residents' quality of life, are often only able to find part-time and low-paid positions. We need to ensure that we think beyond the health care aspects of long-term care and provide much more in terms of social care, because these places are people's homes, not hospitals.Overall, we need to ensure that all workers in long-term care receive the training they need, as well as the respect that they deserve through proper compensation for their vital roles. As we build back, we need to focus on the care economy and ensure that women from all backgrounds are not left behind.The final issue I would like to introduce is the consequence of sedentariness during the pandemic. Many older people have moved very little for many months. This has implications for risk of falling, health and physical function. Post pandemic, we will need to ensure that programming and services will be available to respond. For example, we know that an individualized approach is critical for falls prevention. However, in Winnipeg, we have lost universal access to adult outpatient therapies because these services are not part of the Canada Health Act. This means there is reliance on private health insurance or paying out of pocket.Similarly, access to therapy service is not sufficient within long-term care either and residents have experienced a dramatic reduction in their physical activity. Of course, we cannot forget about all of the individuals who will need to recover from COVID. We need targeted federal funds for appropriate therapies and physical activity programming to allow individuals to recover their physical health.I would like to end by saying that the Government of Canada endorsed the global strategy and action plan on aging and health of the World Health Organization. The year 2020 saw the official launch of the Decade of Healthy Ageing by the WHO. Canada needs to ensure that, coming out of this pandemic, we are ensuring that older people are able to achieve good health in age-friendly environments that are free from ageism.Thank you.Broadband Internet servicesCare for the elderlyCaregivers and health care professionalsCentre on AgingCOVID-19Health services accessibilityInformation disseminationLong-term carePandemicPhysical activity and fitnessSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English] Thank you.We're now going to rounds of questions, beginning with Ms. Falk, please, for six minutes.MichellePorterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk (Battlefords—Lloydminster, CPC): (1540)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.I would like to thank both of our witnesses for their time today and for contributing their expertise to our study.Special thanks to you, Dr. Boscart, for your continued commitment to care for our seniors on the front lines throughout this pandemic.Tragically, long-term care has been the epicentre of the pandemic. While the problems in long-term care aren't new—we know they're not new—they have been highlighted and heightened during this health crisis. We know the delivery of quality of care for our seniors depends on a skilled workforce. Dr. Boscart, in the report that you co-authored, “Restoring trust: COVID-19 and the future of long-term care in Canada”, it suggests that the priority in addressing long-term care should be to solve the workforce crisis. In fact, it says that if we do nothing else, we need to address staffing. That report was released in the first wave of COVID, so it was a few waves ago. Would you say that it is still accurate to prioritize the workforce crisis in long-term care? Could you also share with this committee in more detail the existing challenges in the long-term care workforce?Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeronique-BoscartInterventionDr. Veronique Boscart: (1545)[English]Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Ms. Falk, for that question.First of all, I want to accept your thanks. It's a privilege for me to give care to our seniors, and it brings much happiness to me and many others. I see it as a great contribution to our country, to which I am an immigrant, and I feel very fortunate to be able to provide care to its elders.From a long-term care perspective, indeed staffing is a major challenge, and it is not getting any better. Many nurses and personal support workers, or unregulated care providers and others, have gone through one or two COVID tests themselves—I was one of them—and a lot of us have become sick. In addition to that, a lot of us have not been able to carry on with double shifts and continuous work. Many of my colleagues have worked non-stop since the onset of COVID. At times that starts to weigh, so we are losing staff because they are burnt out.In addition to that, we also know, and I think my colleague alluded to it, that we work with a workforce in long-term care that is mainly female. The majority of them are unregulated, and we know that those groups of people come from the cohorts or the environments that sometimes struggle with life. Many of them are immigrants. Many of them hold more than one job in order to pay the bills. They cannot take a full-time job in one long-term care home because there are no full-time jobs available. There is full-time work, but there are no full-time positions available. As a result, they do not have sick leave or benefit plans, or a pension for that matter, and they have to take more than one position in order to meet the ends. [Technical difficulty—Editor] who really have to rush from one place to another and are not committed to one specific home. That leads to discontinuation of care, and that always affects the resident and the family negatively. That is one very big problem that we have.In addition to that, moving into COVID, we also had serious shortages of staff in long-term care. [Technical difficulty—Editor] found that even if nursing homes were staffed to the best of their ability with all positions filled, we still would only give 60% of the care that is required to provide quality care. Canada has the lowest staffing recommendations across all of our western countries in mandatory staffing for long-term care homes.As of today, in long-term care, we are short about 60% of registered nurses, 50% of registered practical nurses and about 20% of personal support workers. It is impossible to provide care if you do not have the people to provide the care. That's a very short, first main problem that I see happening in long-term care. It's very difficult to attract my colleagues to long-term care, if I cannot guarantee full-time permanent jobs with a pension plan, sick leave or anything else, and where you will always work a double shift. It's very hard to do.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1545)[English]Dr. Porter, do you have anything that you would like to add to that as well?Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensVeroniqueBoscartMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1545)[English]I would say that the situation is quite similar in Manitoba to what has been described in Ontario. This issue of part-time work, not being paid well, is clearly not going to entice individuals to come to these positions, particularly not after everything we've seen during the pandemic. Long-term care facilities have been kind of left on their own to fend for themselves and their residents. A lot more needs to be done in this regard, in terms of ensuring that we have sufficient funding levels to provide the compensation. This is clearly identified in the WHO report. This is an issue across all of long-term care, and also would apply to home care as well. People are just not being paid well enough for the important work that they do.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1545)[English] What would either of you say is the greatest barrier to recruitment, then? Out of everything that was said or listed, what would be the greatest barrier to that recruitment and retention of staff?Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensMichellePorterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Answer very briefly, please.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeronique-BoscartInterventionDr. Veronique Boscart: (1550)[English]Pay.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]That was very succinct. Thank you. VeroniqueBoscartRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1550)[English]Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you, Ms. Falk.Next we're going to Ms. Young, please, for six minutes. RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young (London West, Lib.): (1550)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. That is a very interesting discussion, of course, about the challenge of retaining nurses.Sixteen per cent of nurses have said that they'll leave their jobs in the next year, and only one-quarter took time off to look after themselves. I think this speaks to the obvious issue that we have.You mentioned the excessive shift work that many nurses are taking. Dr. Boscart, do you have any indication of whether that would be more acute in private versus non-profit homes?Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeronique-BoscartInterventionDr. Veronique Boscart: (1550)[English]The answer is probably not. My colleague Dr. Andrew Costa conducted a study to look at care levels and to look at some of the different quality aspects of care in private and not-for-profit nursing homes, and found that it's very similar. It's very difficult to attract staff to these environments, and the ones you have often feel that they're not well prepared; hence, the challenge we have in our educational system to prepare nurses better for what is to come and then provide them with strong orientation so they remain on the job. Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1550)[English]Thus, it's not only pay; it's teaching. It's making sure that they have the skills that they need.Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeronique-BoscartInterventionDr. Veronique Boscart: (1550)[English]Yes. Looking across Canada when we do a scan of all nurses—and this is very specific for the bachelor of nursing for registered nurses—we have looked at the content in their curriculum, and I am very happy to see there is still maternal-child education in there and trying to teach nurses how to help moms to breastfeed, which is absolutely necessary. Ninety per cent of the people in our hospitals and nursing homes are over 85, so they receive additional care. Gerontology is not a mandatory component in our nursing curriculum in Canada, nor is it a specialism or something that people get paid for if they have an additional certification.I know my colleague Dr. Porter has been a long-standing advocate at the Canadian Association of Gerontology to look at really enhancing the skills of [Technical difficulty—Editor], so if we do not prepare specialists, how do we provide excellent care?Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1550)[English]Dr. Porter, could you comment on that?VeroniqueBoscartMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1550)[English]Just to add to what's been said about the lack of gerontology or geriatric education, I think you will see that this exists in other professions as well, even though they might end up serving primarily an older audience. Even pharmacy programs and rehab programs, many programs out there do not necessarily have that specific training for older people. I think this committee has already heard about the lack of geriatricians in this country compared to pediatricians. It certainly is an issue. It is challenging, I would say, at the university level when young students are coming in. They're not necessarily anticipating that they're going to work with older people, and that's across all health care professions, but certainly most are going to end up working with older people. We really need to ensure that there are positions out there for people and that they're well paid, as we've already discussed, and that we ensure that gets put into the curriculum of various health care programs, that it's in case studies and some of the interprofessional education that goes on so that teams of health care professionals are able to appropriately serve older people in the community. Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1550)[English]You also, Dr. Porter, mentioned transportation. You said that if aging in place is our goal—and a lot of people now are questioning whether they'd ever want to end up in a long-term care facility—age-friendly communities are important. What would you think we should do, as a federal government, to further that goal?COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensMichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1550)[English] Well, the federal government is overseeing the age-friendly communities initiative across the country, although, of course, there's a large provincial jurisdiction over many of the services, which includes transportation. I'm not exactly sure what the role of the federal government is, and this is one of the issues that [Technical difficulty—Editor] involved in transportation, which includes municipalities. Municipalities really need support in providing these services, whether they're rural or urban communities. It is not a great scenario and we see stories in the paper where people are not able to get to vaccination sites, which is the main health care issue right now. We're doing some projects right now in Manitoba. We did get some funding for them, but it all came about a bit too late. I think in general, within health care, there's a concept that someone will set up the appointments and hope that somehow people will figure out how to get to them. However, we've heard over and over again, when we've done consultations across the province, that transportation is a huge barrier for people when getting services, in particular with health care, and in being able to engage in their communities.COVID-19Health services accessibilityPandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Thank you, Ms. Young.MichellePorterKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1555)[English]Thank you very much.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.KateYoungLondon WestLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): (1555)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank both witnesses for their presentations. I must admit that several of the points raised resonated with me, since I used to be a nurse. I think that all the provinces are experiencing the realities described in terms of working conditions, compensation, attraction and retention.In Quebec, we're quite proud of our achievements. At the height of the crisis, 10,000 personal support workers were hired. They're part of the care team for which we ensured increased compensation. It should be noted that labour laws fall under provincial jurisdiction.This brings me to a question that [Technical difficulty—Editor]. Quebec and the other provinces have requested support for health care and social services. They have jurisdiction over service delivery, care organization, labour laws and regulations. The provinces have requested a significant increase in health transfers. As we know, 80% of health care spending is based on the workforce. To provide quality services, workers are needed.Ms. Porter, do you agree that the federal government should transfer the money needed for health care to the provinces?Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Health care systemPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1555)[English]More funding is absolutely required across the board, although I'm not going to get into which jurisdiction should be providing those funds. We're all, as individuals, taxpayers and the money has to come from somewhere, but we'll need to see more funding in the system, in addition to the things we've already talked about. We also know that many surgeries have been delayed. There are a lot of older people who need surgeries going forward, whether for cataracts or knee replacements, and there are even more dire situations right here in Manitoba with heart surgeries and of course with long-term care. I mentioned the therapies that are not necessarily available. Some people can't afford to pay for physical therapy to recover from COVID, for example.Certainly a lot more funding is needed within the health care system going forward.COVID-19Health care systemPandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1555)[Translation]Ms. Porter, you have conducted several studies and made a number of observations regarding seniors.In your experience, are there additional costs and expenses associated with illness that may contribute to increased stress and anxiety among seniors aged 65 to 75?COVID-19Mental healthPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsMichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1600)[English] I'm sorry. Was that directed to me?LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1600)[Translation]Yes.MichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1600)[English]Your question was around whether this whole situation has created more problems in terms of anxiety and mental health. Yes, certainly. I wouldn't say that's across the board. I think it's a bit of a stereotype to think that all older people have fared poorly during the pandemic. I think we have some very resilient older people who have actually done quite well during this. They've had life experience. They've potentially gone through scenarios like this. I know a 96-year-old woman. She's not happy with the situation as it has been, but she has been quite resilient. She's had a lot of struggles in her life.Certainly, there are older people who have suffered, particularly those who are on low incomes, who are disconnected from their communities or who are living in apartment buildings. They don't feel safe even leaving their rooms. Yes, dealing with the mental health challenges that the pandemic has posed certainly will be a reality going forward as well.COVID-19Mental healthPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1600)[Translation]In your opinion, Ms. Porter, are there seniors aged 65 to 74 who spend over 30% of their income on housing?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsMichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1600)[English]There are people on the low-income scale who certainly need more support. Any time programs are being designed for older people, I think it would make a lot of sense for those programs to be targeted to those who are in great need.Again, there's a lot of heterogeneity in the older population in terms of their financial circumstances. There are many older people in that age bracket who are still working, for example, and who are still paying taxes, but there are people who are younger, particularly people who might have faced lifelong health challenges and things, who are not able to work, are in that lower age bracket and might not be very financially well off.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Dr. Porter.[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English]Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.MichellePorterLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): (1600)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.My first question is for Dr. Porter.I'm sure you would agree that the treatment of seniors during the pandemic has been pretty horrible and less than adequate. Much of this has had to do with the poor conditions in long-term care centres and generally inadequate programs and systems for seniors. I would argue that this is a clear indication of an issue of ageism that we certainly have in this country, and I think it's important that we root out these issues to ensure that all seniors can live with dignity and security. Can you tell us more about the role of ageism in the pandemic and how you would suggest creating societies and systems that don't perpetuate ageism?AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1600)[English] That's a big topic, but an important one.We saw right from the very beginning of the pandemic that ageism was seeping in, even by people who weren't likely intending to be ageist. We heard messages such as, “Oh, it's not that serious because it only affects older people.” There, we see the seeping in right away at the beginning, that it really isn't that concerning because it's not affecting everyone in society.Implicitly, although we might not even realize it, even gerontologists can see it surfacing on occasions, that we have this differential thinking about people by their age. This is something that is pervasive in society, so it's not something that's going to be easily overcome.I think you're correct in your assertion that in the fact that long-term care did not do well, there is certainly an aspect of ageism and ableism that existed, which was why they were kind of left on their own to try to fend for themselves.One, we have to have an awareness campaign, to begin with, that this even is an issue, because most people in society realize that there are many forms of discrimination and they realize the harms from those forms of discrimination, but they do not understand [Technical difficulty—Editor] as a society. It also has implications for work. We've seen that, in many instances, older people might have lost jobs through the pandemic, and older people will likely have a harder time being hired again because ageism is also pervasive in hiring, training, and even in firing employees.It is a huge issue for our society and I think it would be worthwhile for Canada, as a country, to join the WHO in combatting ageism. I understand that the National Seniors Council has this as one of its target areas, but I don't think we can underestimate how important this is. I think it also affects our students at the university and the topics they choose to study, because it is not seen as necessarily a good role to be in, in terms of looking after older people. Across the board, we have to try to overcome this.AgeismCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1605)[English]As we know, during the pandemic, certain groups have been hit harder, and it certainly has shone a light on racial, gender, class and other inequalities that we have in society. These societal inequalities had lethal consequences for groups forced to live in poverty and in vulnerable situations. At the same time, I would argue that, in terms of the wealthy, many people were profiteering off the pandemic and getting richer. I've taken great offence to it.Can you tell us about the pandemic's uneven effects across all social groups among seniors?AgeismCOVID-19PandemicResearch and researchersSenior citizensMichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1605)[English]I don't have a lot of specific data that I can cite, but certainly we've seen in Winnipeg where there are lots of individuals who have food insecurity issues. Right now, in this third wave that we're experiencing, they're having to be provided with emergency kits, whereas, as I said, I hear about other older people and they are financially stable and are able to weather this quite well. People are taking up new hobbies. There is a great range of effects of this pandemic on older people.There's a tendency to think of them as one group and having one effect, but certainly through the various community organizations that are operating within our communities, we hear about these divides, and even just by the fact of where people are living, the physical buildings in which they live. If you're living in a house, you most likely have a much better quality of life because you're able to come and go potentially without any fear that you're going to have a possibility of contracting the virus, as compared to—AgeismCOVID-19PandemicResearch and researchersSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1605)[English]Sorry. I have one second left.Would you say it's difficult to give that assessment because there has really been no race-based data and gender analysis during the pandemic to give a clear response to that, and that it's needed?AgeismCOVID-19PandemicResearch and researchersSenior citizensMichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1605)[English]Yes, I do, and—LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Respond briefly, please.MichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1605)[English]In a lot of aspects of the data, at least that we're receiving here in Manitoba, which I assume is filtering through federally, we might have race-based data, and we might have age-based data, but we don't have a lot of the more fine-tuned data across all individuals. Hopefully, we'll be able to see that as researchers and people will be able to study it.AgeismCOVID-19PandemicResearch and researchersSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1605)[English] Thank you so much.MichellePorterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you.Mr. Tochor, you have five minutes, please.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor (Saskatoon—University, CPC): (1605)[English]Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the witnesses for their presentations, for being here today and for the good work they're doing to understand what we're facing with such an important segment of our population.We touched on aging in place and aging at home or living at home. Just to start off, I believe that after this, once we're on the other side of COVID-19, there's going to be an even larger percentage of seniors who aren't going to want to move into seniors housing. They are going to want to age in place. As much as I think there was probably a large demand before the pandemic, I think that afterwards there are going to be some lingering effects and some fear factors are going to creep into it.Do you believe that this trend is accurate? Is that going to happen after?COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1610)[English]I can answer that if you'd like.Yes, I absolutely think that. In part, generationally, we see the age cohorts changing. Their lifestyles have been very different from that perspective, I think, even pre-pandemic, yes, in terms of even what families will encourage older people to do in terms of their living environments.Clearly, that's going to have been affected by the pandemic. We hear in our studies, when people are talking about long-term care, that there is absolutely even more fear than there was in the past. There are going to be people who want to live in their own homes and in their own neighbourhoods. We need to really make sure that we are not just replacing long-term care living with caregivers becoming overburdened and them having to take everything on.We need to make sure that we have more home care available, as well as a lot more community supports. There's a lot more than just transportation, but that's one that sometimes gets forgotten because when we say “age in place”, I think people think that the person's never going to leave that place. There are many reasons why people want and need to leave the place that they're actually living in.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1610)[English]Thank you.One the concerns I have is what Canada will look like after this. I'll carry on with Ms. Porter. You brought up the delayed surgical care. In general, health care has been delayed for the last 16 months in so many cases. I'm very fearful of the state of finances in provincial capitals across Canada. There's a record amount of debt and the ability for provinces to provide health care going into the future is going to be very challenging.If there are decisions to be made provincially, I'm concerned about the financial strength of the provinces to meet that challenge. I'm wondering if you have any idea if there's one segment of delayed care that we should be watching afterwards for seniors.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careMichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1610)[English]Oh my goodness, in terms of surgeries or therapies, there's a whole host. If we think from a primary prevention point of view, that was what I was kind of trying to get at in my original statement around the physical therapies and exercise programming. I come from that background in kinesiology. It is a primary prevention means for so many different health conditions but, as I mentioned, many older people live in apartment buildings. They have barely moved at all through these various waves of the pandemic. I think a good place for some money to be spent is on primary prevention for falls and for making sure metabolic health is good. That would be where I would put some money after this pandemic or going out of this pandemic.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1610)[English]That's on the chronic side, but there are going to be emergency needs. I'm wondering if there are any statistics. I won't say that it's from a reliable source, but there are concerns about delayed cancer diagnoses. We know that with a delayed diagnosis for patients, it's going to be a poorer health outcome. There's cancer and there's hypertension, which is a ticking time bomb out there. It is kind of related to the inactivity of some of our seniors. Is there no research that you know of or no statistics on what we are looking at afterwards?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careMichellePorterMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1610)[English] In terms of one specific medical condition, no. I think it goes across all the cardiovascular...diabetes, cancer and so on. I would imagine there are issues with all of them.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensWaiting lists in health careCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1610)[English]Thank you very much.MichellePorterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Dr. Porter. Thank you, Mr. Tochor.Next we have Mr. Long, please, for five minutes.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long (Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.): (1610)[English]Thank you, Chair, and good afternoon to my colleagues. Thank you so much to our witnesses this afternoon. Again, your advocacy is very much appreciated.I want to touch on isolation and mental health for seniors. Certainly, as politicians during campaigns, we all go door to door and we have one-on-one direct conversations. I would say without question that when I would leave the doors of seniors who were alone, who were isolated, was when I was the most shaken and concerned. Certainly, as a government, we came forth with some things. We raised the GIS for low-income single seniors. We lowered the age of eligibility from 67 to 65. We're going to now raise the old age pension for those age 75 and older by 10%. With respect to COVID, however, the pandemic itself has created challenges and exposed increased levels of need for direct government support during crisis for all Canadians but especially for seniors. We want to make sure and recognize the importance of ensuring that seniors are equipped with the mental health supports to combat the social isolation of being away from family and loved ones.Can you both touch on the issues that have become more pronounced due to the COVID-19 pandemic with respect to mental health and isolation for seniors?We'll start with you, Ms. Boscart.COVID-19Mental healthPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeronique-BoscartInterventionDr. Veronique Boscart: (1615)[English]Yes, absolutely. One of the things I think we'll see come out loud and clear after doors open again and people [Technical difficulty—Editor] is dementia. I think a lot of that has been hidden. In addition to all of the delayed surgeries that need to happen, I think we'll find a lot of people who now have advanced in their dementia journey a lot faster than we expected. None of those diagnoses or treatments have started in a year and a half right now. I do think that this will be a significant problem.Building on Dr. Porter's answers, I'll cite two things that really require our close attention and, hopefully, an investment. One is day programming within the community through an equitable, accessible approach where people who live by themselves in the community or with care providers can actually have meaningful activities. This is not only for the seniors, especially for those seniors who live with dementia, but it's also to help the care partners or the family members cope with everything that's going on.We are expecting that all of these people are going back to work, and their loved ones, older loved ones, may have developed dementia. We know that those numbers are skyrocketing and are probably a lot higher than we think they are—one in 10 by 2036. All of those people will have to be left alone, and people will have to go back to work.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19DementiaPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsWayneLongSaint John—RothesayWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long: (1615)[English]Thank you .Ms. Porter.Oh, sorry, I thought you had finished.VeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeroniqueBoscartVeronique-BoscartInterventionDr. Veronique Boscart: (1615)[English]No problem.The second component, and Ms. Porter can talk more about this, is to really get serious about providing financial, mental and health support for the caregivers. They provide the majority of care in our communities. In order for them to balance everything else, they will need support.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Mental healthPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsWayneLongSaint John—RothesayWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long: (1615)[English]Ms. Porter, could you give me some comments on that, please?VeroniqueBoscartMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1615)[English]Absolutely. We certainly hear all the time about how burdened caregivers are, and when we've done consultations around the province of Manitoba, we've certainly heard that there's a lot of need for respite care. There just isn't enough respite care, and one can only imagine how challenging that has been because respite programs were closed during the pandemic. In looking at the Canadian longitudinal study on aging, some of their data and some of the anxiety and mental health issues, it was actually some of the younger seniors who were experiencing some of the larger challenges. Part of that might be because of caregiving issues. Caregiving is a huge issue, so on this whole idea of aging in place, we can't just be thinking about the older person. We have to do more to be thinking about the caregivers and coming up with inventive ways that others can help. We're starting to try to find a home sharing program, where we can have students living with older people in their own homes and taking some of the pressure off of caregivers, not by replacing home care, not by replacing caregivers, but by providing caregivers with some peace of mind, both that there's someone in the home who could be helping the person and that they have someone that they can be talking to on a regular basis.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Mental healthPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsWayneLongSaint John—RothesayWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long: (1615)[English] Thank you.MichellePorterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you, Mr. Long.Thank you, Dr. Porter.[Translation]Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.WayneLongSaint John—RothesayLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1615)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My question is for Ms. Porter.You said that the reality of seniors wasn't necessarily the same across the board, which I found intriguing. I understand that the reality of a 68‑year‑old senior, a 73‑year‑old senior or a 77‑year‑old senior may be different.In terms of financial health, you said that observations can be made for certain age groups. Statistics show that some seniors decide to continue working between the ages of 65 and 74. In many cases, they do so because they don't have a choice. Their income is too low.Do you agree with that? Do you have any statistics to share?COVID-19Older workersPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1620)[English] I don't have any specific numbers, but I know that the number of older people who are above 65 and are continuing to work is growing. That's a growing segment of the population who is deciding to continue to work. Yes, there are financial reasons for that, but there's a lot of people who do it because they find it very satisfying. It provides a lot of meaning to their life, so they want to continue to work.There was an article about a 95-year-old lawyer. People are continuing to work. Unfortunately, due to the pandemic, I think we're going to see some people who will have to continue to work longer, particularly those who have put money into their small businesses to keep things going and they've taken from their retirement fund. I think there will be a phenomenon of people working longer in the future.COVID-19Older workersPandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1620)[Translation] We're finding that family caregivers, both in public facilities for seniors and at home, play an important role. Many people aged 65 and over are family caregivers.Do these people need to bear an additional financial burden because they're family caregivers?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensMichellePorterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Briefly, please.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1620)[English]Yes, absolutely, they do.Certainly, as we see more people living into their late eighties and nineties, many of their children who are in their sixties and seventies are potentially still working and also caregiving for their older parents. Yes, there are certainly out-of-pocket costs associated with caregiving.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Older workersPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.[English]Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.MichellePorterLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1620)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.My question is for Dr. Porter.You mentioned that it's the UN Decade of Healthy Ageing. You spoke briefly about the World Health Organization's global action plan and strategy on aging and health.Could you expand on that? Especially as you were speaking about ableism and aging, part of me feels that we need to start looking at what's happening to seniors in this country as a very serious human rights matter that needs to be dealt with.Civil and human rightsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownMichellePorterMichellePorterMichelle-PorterInterventionDr. Michelle Porter: (1620)[English]Absolutely. There certainly are campaigns out there to have a UN charter on human rights for older people. The pandemic has bolstered the advocates for this even further, particularly given what happened in long-term care.Canada did endorse this global strategy and action plan, but I'm not aware that we actually have a full-fledged plan for what Canada is going to do as a country. We see some things happening, as I mentioned, with the National Seniors Council around ageism, but there are other aspects of how we should be shifting our health care system as well. It's not focusing so much on acute demands and having all of our resources put into hospitals, but thinking about the chronic demands, as well as ensuring that people have good, functional abilities, which is what the definition of health is for the WHO.We do need to have a concerted action through the federal government as well as all the provincial governments, because there are many things that cross jurisdictions. Municipalities are very involved. An age-friendly environment is a big part of this as well, making sure that our environments enable people to age well and to contribute still to their communities.We have many older people who make great contributions. One thing that was a surprise to many in the pandemic was that older people weren't able to volunteer anymore. Some organizations, like food banks, relied on older people to keep those food banks going.There are lots of ways we can work toward this decade of healthy aging as a country.Civil and human rightsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English]Thank you so much.MichellePorterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.Dr. Porter and Dr. Boscart, I want to thank you very much for the work that you do, for your expertise in working with seniors and for being with us to share some snippets of that expertise today. It is extremely interesting and of great value to our study. Thanks again for being with us. We wish you a good day. We have another panel joining us shortly. We're going to suspend for a few minutes while we do a sound check for them.(1625)(1630)LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]I call the meeting to order. Today's meeting is a study of the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on seniors. I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. Interpretation is available in this video conference. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English, or French. [Translation] When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you aren't speaking, your microphone should be on mute.I would now like to welcome the witnesses to continue our discussion. They'll have five minutes to give their opening remarks. The members can then ask them questions.Today we're joined by representatives from the Coalition pour la dignité des aînés: Lise Lapointe, member and president of the Association des retraitées et retraités de l'éducation et des autres services publics du Québec; Pierre Lynch, member and president of the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées; and Rose‑Mary Thonney, member and president of the Association québécoise des retraité(e)s des secteurs public et parapublic.(1635)[English]From the Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia, we have Isobel Mackenzie, seniors advocate.[Translation]We'll start with Ms. Thonney.Ms. Thonney, I want to welcome you to the committee. You have the floor for five minutes.SeanCaseyCharlottetownRose-MaryThonneyRose-MaryThonneyRose-Mary-ThonneyInterventionMs. Rose-Mary Thonney (Member and President, Association québécoise des retraité(e)s des secteurs public et parapublic, Coalition pour la dignité des aînés): (1635)[Translation]Good afternoon.The introductions have already been made, so I won't repeat them. I'm here today on behalf of the Coalition pour la dignité des aînés, a group of six associations representing over 150,000 seniors. My colleagues Lise Lapointe and Pierre Lynch, whose associations have already been mentioned, are here with me. They can answer your questions.We're here to advocate for the priorities that seniors widely agree on.The pandemic's toll has been particularly hard on the members of our associations. During this period, a number of them have experienced physical and mental health issues, but also significant financial pressure. The pandemic, coupled with a lack of action prior to this period, has left many seniors in a vulnerable situation. The lack of health transfers to the provinces has resulted in an under‑funded health care system. The impact on seniors' care is felt on a daily basis.The coalition believes that increased health transfers to the provinces are necessary to improve the living conditions of seniors. Only 25% of the money allocated to long‑term care is spent on home support. Only 3% of seniors in Quebec live in long‑term care facilities. The rest live at home or in seniors' residences. In Quebec, 18% of seniors live in seniors' residences, compared to 6% in the rest of Canada. Seniors deserve more and better than this.The past year's crisis has also affected the mental health of seniors. The plight of long‑term care facilities and fears about the spread of COVID‑19 have isolated the most vulnerable seniors and led to greater anxiety issues. A number of seniors are suffering from real mental health issues. Services are very difficult to access through the public system and very expensive in the private sector.The coalition is also very concerned about the financial situation of seniors.In its latest budget, the government announced a 10% increase in old age security benefits starting in summer 2022, along with a one‑time cheque for $500 for people aged 75 and over. This isn't enough. It covers only a portion of vulnerable seniors. Nearly four out of ten people aged 65 and over rely on the guaranteed income supplement to make ends meet. These people deserve the same consideration as people aged 75 and over. The increase provided by the government must also be available to people aged 65 and over.The income of a person aged 65 and over who just receives the old age security pension and the guaranteed income supplement amounts to only $18,000. This amount is well below the adequate income threshold. Moreover, there are people who receive only a pension that doesn't fully meet their needs.We suggest that you establish a new financial allocation geared directly towards seniors who don't have enough income to live on.The coalition is also proposing that you improve the medical expense tax credit and lower the eligibility threshold from 3% to 1.5% of the income for people aged 65 and over.The government must do more to provide a decent income for seniors.(1640)The benefits of these types of measures would be felt across the country and would have a positive impact on both the living conditions of seniors and the economy. Government investments in improving living conditions would be redistributed throughout the Canadian economy and would promote an economic recovery that includes seniors.As you can see in its document entitled “38 solutions for the dignity of seniors,” the coalition provides many concrete and easy‑to‑implement proposals.We're ready, and my colleagues in particular are ready, to answer your questions. Thank you.Coalition pour la dignité des aînésCOVID-19Health care systemMental healthPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Thonney.[English] Next we have Ms. Mackenzie for five minutes, please.The floor is yours.Rose-MaryThonneyIsobelMackenzieIsobelMackenzieIsobel-MackenzieInterventionMs. Isobel Mackenzie (Seniors Advocate, Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia): (1640)[English] Thank you very much for inviting me to provide my insights on the impact of COVID-19 on seniors. I have to tell you that in my 25-plus years of working with seniors, I can honestly say that nothing has matched this past year for both moments of breathtaking despair and also occasions of spectacular inspiration.We know that the nation has been focused on seniors in long-term care, and COVID-19 has revealed for all of us to see what life can be like for some who live in nursing homes. Canadians didn't like what they saw and very loudly told their governments that we need to do better. We are starting to see those commitments flow to long-term care from both our federal and provincial governments. That signals a brighter future, hopefully, but a caveat from somebody who's been around for quite a while is that these fiscal commitments need to be followed with expectations, and the expectations need to be able to be measured. Standards are only as good as their monitoring and enforcement.We also need to remember that the changes are not going to happen overnight, and most importantly, they are not likely to meaningfully affect those who live in long-term care through the pandemic. We need to take stock of both the physical and the psychological damage experienced by current residents that has come from both their being terrified of a deadly virus and their being kept away from their family and friends and their normal routines. We know that the rate of prescribing antipsychotics increased exponentially over the pandemic here in B.C. We saw an increase of over 10% in the prescription of antipsychotics. That is the highest annual increase that we have ever seen since we've begun measuring this. Here in B.C., we've wiped out all the gains of the past 10 years to reduce their use. We did that in a single year.There are also going to be emotional scars on family members that may never heal. The pain for some of these family members from forced separation from their loved ones cannot be overstated, and we really do need to reflect on how our actions were inconsistent with our words and devalued the importance of connections with our loved ones in the last years of our life.Perhaps most important as we focus on the future of long-term care is that we cannot forget that most seniors not only wish to live at home for the entirety of their lives but they do, and I'm following up on much of what Rose-Mary has spoken to very eloquently. Less than 20% of people over 85 live in long-term care in Canada. The vast majority of frail seniors need to be supported in the community, and those living in the community were also profoundly impacted by the pandemic. The rate at which a person is likely to live alone multiplies by a factor of four once you reach your eighties. The important human connections are found less at home than they are at the library, the recreation centre, the seniors centre, the bank or the grocery store. All of these were closed for long periods of time during COVID, and many struggled before COVID to be able to provide these connections. Staying at home was much more likely to mean being alone for those over 65, and it has revealed for us the importance of these community connections going forward.The virtual connections that kept many of us going proved elusive for some seniors for a variety of reasons. For some, it was too difficult to become tech savvy at this point in their lives during COVID, but for many it was a cost issue. What COVID has highlighted, and Rose-Mary spoke to this, is how many seniors need to use their community supports because they don't have the income they need. A third of our seniors in Canada are living on the guaranteed income supplement, the GIS. In British Columbia, that means less than a minimum wage job. They are really struggling. This pandemic revealed that the $1,000 a year it costs for the Internet is just too much, so many found themselves cut off because they couldn't go to those recreation centres and seniors centres and get the access that they needed.As we look to the future, we need to make sure that a person who goes into long-term care only does so after all community supports have been exhausted. If we use British Columbia as an example, we have tremendous work to do. In B.C., seven out of 10 admissions to long-term care were people who had no community home supports 90 days prior to their admissions.We have a long way to go to maximize the potential of our home support and home care program in Canada. This is in part because it's fragmented in our federated model of delivery and looks very different in provinces.(1645) Cost is a big factor. In my province we are subsidizing people in long-term care to the tune of about $60,000 a year, yet we are giving nowhere near that amount of money to assist people to live independently. Many of the costs that some of us don't associate with health care when people are in their forties, fifties and sixties become health care costs for people in their eighties and nineties.I'll just conclude by saying that balancing the heartache of the past year has been the brilliant display of care, compassion and concern that Canadians have shown for seniors throughout this pandemic. We put up a number on a website for people to call if they wanted to help seniors and it crashed as thousands of British Columbians came forward to help. We saw that across the country, so we're not indifferent to the needs of those who are in the last years of their life. It's quite the opposite. We need to find a way to harness this tremendous goodwill of Canadians to support aging with dignity. Hearings such as the ones you're holding today are an important first step.I thank you for inviting me. I look forward to your questions.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Long-term careMental healthOffice of the Seniors Advocate of British ColumbiaPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Thank you, Ms. Mackenzie. We're going to proceed with those questions forthwith, beginning with Ms. Falk for six minutes, please.IsobelMackenzieRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1645)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for their contributions to this study and making time to come to our committee meeting today.Seniors living in long-term care have been at the centre of the health crisis and we know that no senior has been immune to the challenges that have been brought on by this pandemic.My first question is for the Coalition pour la dignité des aînés. Your organization released 38 recommendations to ensure dignity in living for seniors. How has COVID impacted the priorities and needs of seniors? Would these recommendations have differed before the pandemic?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownLiseLapointeLiseLapointeLise-LapointeInterventionMs. Lise Lapointe (Member and President, Association des retraitées et retraités de l’éducation et des autres services publics du Québec, Coalition pour la dignité des aînés): (1645)[Translation]Can I answer the question?Coalition pour la dignité des aînésCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[Translation]Yes, absolutely.LiseLapointeLiseLapointeLiseLapointeLise-LapointeInterventionMs. Lise Lapointe: (1645)[Translation]The coalition focused more on short‑term and medium‑term solutions that would alleviate hardship for our seniors. It took a crisis of this nature to expose many of the shortcomings that already existed but that had hardly been addressed, despite extensive investigations and research into the challenges faced by our seniors.Abuse is still happening. Some would say that it's organizational abuse. However, the current issue is much bigger than previously suspected. That's why the coalition quickly took steps to ensure that our seniors are given a little more consideration.It was necessary to send in the army, which reported degrading and disagreeable situations. This gave us a true picture of the situation of seniors living in long‑term care facilities in particular, but also in seniors' residences. This is how we were able to elicit responses.We're asking for better home support. The budgets never meet the needs of the people. Normally, there's a set amount of funding. However, after a while, there's nothing left. The needs that have come up in the past few months are barely or not being met. It's necessary to reinvest in home support.It's important to consider that seniors play a role in society. Before, we rarely heard about seniors. They weren't necessarily mentioned in policies. The Quebec and federal governments didn't talk about the need to invest more in building repairs or in making sure that air‑conditioning systems worked properly during heat waves. These matters weren't part of the discussions or among the issues raised.A number of issues already existed. However, unfortunately, the situation deteriorated during the pandemic. We hope that the federal and provincial governments will listen to our requests.The Canadian provinces could also benefit from certain federal measures, given the fact that seniors have a role to play, and it must be a prominent role.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Home care servicesLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1650)[English] Thank you.Ms. Mackenzie, I'm wondering if you want to add to that from your perspective. How have seniors' priorities and needs shifted through the pandemic?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensLiseLapointeIsobelMackenzieIsobelMackenzieIsobel-MackenzieInterventionMs. Isobel Mackenzie: (1650)[English]It's been over a year now, but in the beginning, as you will recall, there were shelter at home orders, so really it was about getting groceries, medications and meals to seniors. That sort of faded a bit, as what came to the forefront was what was happening in long-term care. That became a continued focus as family members continued to be separated from their loved ones for what will now be over a year. That shifted as well.I do think the issues around the lack of supports in the community that were there before COVID certainly was revealed more starkly during COVID. I think that's a theme you'll probably hear quite frequently, that these are not problems created by COVID, but these were problems exposed by COVID.Most of us knew of these problems. I would say for me what was new—or under-appreciated might be a better way of putting it—is the degree to which we heavily marginalize the role that family members play. We saw that in our approach to visits in long-term care. We really have a lot of introspection and soul-searching to do as a clinical community. Basically, we pushed families out of the way and said, “Let us do our job; you're a visitor.” Different provinces dealt with it differently over time.This issue around home care and supporting seniors at home I think is going to become more pronounced because, although the desire was there before, as we experience COVID, there is going to be even greater desire for people to stay at home. We need more federal level, and I don't know if leadership is the right word, but enforced standards and expectations around what people receive in terms of help at home.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Home care servicesLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1655)[English]Thank you.IsobelMackenzieSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Thank you, Ms. Falk.[Translation]Mr. Housefather, you have the floor for six minutes.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.): (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all the witnesses for their hard work to support our seniors. We're very grateful to them.[English]I am going to start with Ms. Mackenzie.During the course of COVID, in my riding, I had numerous long-term care facilities where many, many people died. I had four facilities where over 50 people died. I watched facilities that were not only understaffed but underequipped in the sense that there were four people to a room where there should not be any more than one or two in today's society. I saw very well-meaning but underpaid and understaffed nurses and PABs. I saw families kicked out and caregivers who were meaningful and necessary to the patients kicked out. People died not only of COVID, but of neglect. It was a tragedy.While this is within provincial jurisdiction, Ms. Mackenzie, you talked about enforceability of national standards and how they could be made meaningful. Could you talk a little more about whether or not you agree that national standards are important in this case and how they could be made meaningful and enforceable?Thank you.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsSeanCaseyCharlottetownIsobelMackenzieIsobelMackenzieIsobel-MackenzieInterventionMs. Isobel Mackenzie: (1655)[English]I do think we need national standards, but as I said, the standards mean nothing if there is not enforcement and monitoring of those standards, so how is that meaningful? They have to be measurable, and there need to be consequences for noncompliance. Whether that is achieved by the mechanism the federal government already uses in health transfers—surgical wait-lists have to be managed a certain way, and provinces are not allowed to extra bill—would lead to financial penalties in the transfer payments from the federal government.Those are levers that are available for the federal government to use that could push the provinces to demand better accountability from their care homes, whether they're operating them publicly or whether they've contracted with a private operator to operate them. I can't understate the importance of openness and transparency. The public wants this. They will drive this, and if it is known who's meeting standards and who's not, and where the money is going, I think the federal government will have the support of its citizenry.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Mackenzie.Ms. Lapointe or another witness from the coalition can answer my questions.I understand that, in Quebec, the issue of federal standards is more sensitive, even though we're working with the province. However, as a member of Parliament from Quebec, I believe that national standards are necessary in this area. I have two questions.Does your organization agree with the national standards, even if they aren't included in the 38 priorities?Is the $90 million in funding for home support, as promised in the federal budget, a good step when it comes to your priority of keeping seniors at home for as long as possible?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsIsobelMackenzieRose-MaryThonneyRose-MaryThonneyRose-Mary-ThonneyInterventionMs. Rose-Mary Thonney: (1655)[Translation]Can I ask Mr. Lynch to respond?AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalPierreLynchPierreLynchPierre-LynchInterventionMr. Pierre Lynch (Member and President, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées, Coalition pour la dignité des aînés): (1655)[Translation]Of course.We've had a hospital‑centric health care system for a very long time. It has also long been predicted that more than 20% of the population will be over the age of 65 at some point. The demand for services and care will become quite different. Right now, a generation of seniors, the baby boomers, the people aged 75 and over, have suffered and died as a result of the pandemic in our long‑term care facilities. This wouldn't have happened if we had been prepared.We may have standards across Canada, not just in Quebec, but they mean nothing if no one implements them.I often visit long‑term care facilities because I know people who live in them. I can see that the department visits only every three years. In a public long‑term care facility, the visits are more frequent. In a private long‑term care facility, where the CISSS or organizations often rent places given the lack of space in public long‑term care facilities, the visits are every five years. We may have very strict standards. However, if no one enforces them, the standards won't work.Certainly, the lesson from the pandemic's first wave is that our long‑term care services needed to be just as ready as our acute care services. This wasn't the case in terms of equipment, preparedness, training and the emergency response.I witnessed the Canadian Armed Forces enter a seniors' residence here in Laval, where I live. At one point, among the 60 or so employees who work in that residence, 40 were sick with COVID‑19. It took specialists such as members of the Canadian Armed Forces to go in and get things under control.We aren't prepared to deal with pandemics. Moreover, this won't be the last pandemic. It's the first, and it's a good warning. We must be better prepared and more proactive.We're at the vaccination stage. One major issue in Canada is that we rely too much on foreign countries for our expanded immunization program, our vaccines and our biotechnology development. We need to reconsider how we build our industries in Canada and encourage pharmaceutical companies to come back here.I don't know whether you're aware of this, but right now, we depend on the vaccines that enter the country. If there isn't any vaccine, we don't vaccinate anyone. At the end of the day, I believe that this is about preparedness and thinking outside the box much more than in a traditional manner. Unfortunately, our health care systems are used to thinking inside rather than outside the box.Thank you.Coalition pour la dignité des aînésCOVID-19Emergency preparednessLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsRose-MaryThonneySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Lynch and Mr. Housefather.I'll now give the floor to Ms. Chabot for six minutes.PierreLynchLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I also want to thank Ms. Mackenzie.I want to acknowledge in particular the Coalition pour la dignité des aînés. In Quebec, the six member groups of this coalition are making a big difference in the lives of our seniors, and their influence extends beyond the people whom they represent.Thank you for being here.My first question is for the coalition representatives who want to answer it.You quite clearly stated what steps the federal government must take with regard to the increase in the old age security pension and the guaranteed income supplement. People must be able to access these benefits at the age of 65, because they already have needs at that age. The Bloc Québécois agrees with this idea.However, in addition to these enhancements, what concrete and direct steps can we take to improve the financial situation of seniors? Do you have any other examples to share?COVID-19Living standards, incomes and wagesPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownPierreLynchPierreLynchPierre-LynchInterventionMr. Pierre Lynch: (1700)[Translation]I would like to respond on behalf of the coalition a second time.Of course, we weren't at all pleased about the lack of consideration given to providing this increase to seniors aged 65 to 75, who need it as much as the others.A new financial allocation could also be created to improve the living conditions of people with the lowest incomes. Some countries provide insurance for seniors, which may be called different things. As a result of this type of top‑up program, people with an income of $18,000 could have a decent net income ranging from $24,000 to $32,000, depending on their city. The situation must be worse in Vancouver and Toronto than it is here. However, I can tell you that the cost of rent has risen dramatically in recent times and that this has negatively affected seniors in many ways. This would be a good first measure to implement.The next step would be to improve the medical expense tax credits. Seniors are currently the main recipients of health care and they take many drugs. The eligibility threshold should be lowered from 3% to 1.5% for people aged 65 and over. This would provide some relief to the people most in need by ensuring a fairly significant reimbursement.A number of companies have individual pension plans. Sometimes, for whatever reason, companies go bankrupt or become insolvent. A guarantee fund should be established to ensure that seniors can recover a portion of their pension fund in the event that the company where they worked uses the money for its own survival instead of treating the money as the former employees' retirement fund.These are the three main measures that I have in mind.Everyone would need a fairly significant increase in their old age security pension within a short time frame of two to three years. That way, the income of seniors could be increased from $18,000 to $24,000 quite quickly. This is necessary to ensure that these people can have enough money, not only to pay their rent, but to live decently.COVID-19Living standards, incomes and wagesPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1705)[Translation]Thank you.My next question concerns health. The whole issue of home support is a hot topic in Quebec. Even before the pandemic, people were asking for proper home support so that they could stay at home.That said, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, should we? Our public facilities house the people who need more care. These facilities will always be needed.In terms of home support, how could the federal government provide tangible assistance to the provinces?COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensPierreLynchLiseLapointeLiseLapointeLise-LapointeInterventionMs. Lise Lapointe: (1705)[Translation]Let me respond and also add to Mr. Lynch's response.Yes, seniors have a standard of living that normally is not acceptable. Many people have complained about the measure announced by the federal government saying that it is discriminatory. Why shouldn't a person under the age of 75 be entitled to the same amount and a substantial increase in their pension income called the old age pension? We get calls from people who complain and are unhappy with the situation. So that needs to be addressed.Our seniors don't invest in tax havens, that's for sure. It's also a fact that when they receive additional money, they can afford certain activities that they normally can't afford. This generates economic spinoffs, often at the local level. So you can understand that receiving a little bit more money from the federal government would actually allow them to afford cultural activities, transportation, or a little treat in the week or in the month, something that they normally don't get.With respect to home care, yes, there is progress to be made. For example, to encourage home care, there could be a grant for the renovation of housing that seniors occupy. Of course, there is a program to help people with disabilities or deteriorating physical health adapt their homes to their situation. However, the forms are so complicated to fill out and the wait is so long that people often have to live two or three years in a house that is not adapted to their needs. So they will choose to go to a private seniors' residence or to a residential and long-term care centre, or CHSLD. So that's another measure that the federal government could improve.On the other hand, on the municipal side, there should also be agreements so that seniors have access to free transportation. This would make it easier for them to get to doctors' appointments and other appointments without the need for a caregiver or companion. These are some examples of measures that would not cost astronomical amounts of money, but could make life easier for seniors.COVID-19Health services accessibilityHome care servicesPandemicSenior citizensLouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Lapointe.[English] Next we have Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.LiseLapointeLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1710)[Translation]Thank you.My first question is for the Coalition pour la dignité des aînés.[English]That is where my French will end, because I'm just learning French. You spoke a lot about financial insecurity among seniors. One of the things that I tried to champion after being elected was motion 46, for a guaranteed livable income for all, in addition to current and future income supports. One of my focuses, and I guess inspirations, is on much of what you said, that many seniors in Canada live in poverty and current benefits or guaranteed incomes are inadequate and sink seniors into poverty. Do you believe that a guaranteed livable income—not survival, but livable income—in addition to current and future government programs of support are necessary to ensure that seniors can live in dignity in this country? I will let one of you answer that. COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownRose-MaryThonneyRose-MaryThonneyRose-Mary-ThonneyInterventionMs. Rose-Mary Thonney: (1710)[Translation]Mr. Lynch, can you answer?LeahGazanWinnipeg CentrePierreLynchPierreLynchPierre-LynchInterventionMr. Pierre Lynch: (1710)[Translation]Yes, of course.Yes, such a program could make up for the lack of income, especially for the most vulnerable. About 33% of people currently live on the guaranteed income supplement, or GIS. At some point, they need supplemental income. Recently, my organization did a survey of its members. We found that among our 25,000 members, there were 4,500 caregivers. Do you see the connection?That means that in our community, almost one in five people support another senior as a caregiver. There are costs associated with that, so they definitely need some supplemental income. Even though inflation is not very high, there is still a 1% to 2% loss in purchasing power from year to year. Unfortunately, the indexed increase in public and even private plans does not make up for this.So this kind of program could be useful. For that matter, any program that raises the minimum income level for the most vulnerable seniors would be welcome.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsRose-MaryThonneyLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1710)[English] Yes, I agree. I think we also need to start talking about the high cost of poverty. When you don't look after seniors by providing things like pharmacare and a good income, it impacts health and it costs in public health. I think there are a lot of cost savings to caring for people and making sure people can live with dignity.You've written a lot about problems associated with Quebec's public long-term care centres, specifically highlighting the long wait-lists that force many seniors into private long-term care centres where there are lower standards across the board. From the working conditions to salaries, you listed a number of required changes to make sure seniors don't have to age in fear of insecurity and lack of care. Can you tell us about what improvements to the working conditions of senior care are necessary? As the government develops national standards for long-term care, what standards would you like to see included?Rose-Mary or Lise.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsPierreLynchRose-MaryThonneyRose-MaryThonneyRose-Mary-ThonneyInterventionMs. Rose-Mary Thonney: (1710)[Translation]I will yield the floor to Ms. Lapointe.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLiseLapointeLiseLapointeLise-LapointeInterventionMs. Lise Lapointe: (1715)[Translation]Standards should indeed be set across Canada and should be maintained and monitored by the provinces. These standards should establish a quality that does not currently exist.The working conditions of people who work with the most vulnerable should be changed. There is a need for more staff, better wages, and more personal support workers—people who provide some support. The presence of family caregivers is also needed. We saw during the pandemic that people [Technical difficulty—Editor] who were normally recognized were denied entry, which created isolation. I would like to add that caregivers and family members have had to deal with grief. It's going to take several years to get over these bereavements, because these people have been cut off from the older person they loved and helped and have not been able to get to their bedside. In some cases, the funeral has not yet taken place. Imagine the lingering loss of that person and the grief that follows.I do think that working conditions need to be considered in the case of people who care for vulnerable people in residential and long-term care centres, or CHSLDs, hospitals and private seniors' residences, or RPAs. In Quebec, bonuses were given during the COVID‑19 pandemic, but if these bonuses disappear, salaries will be even lower. Because the working conditions are so bad, this is not a profession that people want to work in. So they're not going to work in those environments.People will have to be recruited, trained and, of course, well compensated. There will also have to be managers in every facility. We have heard of cases where managers were not present, often creating negative or disastrous situations. It is important that there be someone in each facility who is in charge, who can give directions, and, to use a familiar phrase, keep an eye on things. This person must also be able to make requests for their facility if necessary.Caregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSetting of standardsRose-MaryThonneySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Lapointe.[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.LiseLapointeLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1715)[English]Thank you so much.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Next is Mr. Vis, please, for five minutes.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC): (1715)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'll be splitting my time with MP Mazier.Ms. Mackenzie, thank you so much for appearing before the committee today. A lot of your words really resonated with me as a British Columbian MP. One thoughtful point that I took from your opening testimony was you said thousands came forward to help seniors. During our committee, we hear a lot about what the government can do and how much more funding would result in better outcomes on x, y or z, but we don't often talk about the role civil society and volunteers can play and want to play in our communities, and some ways that the federal government might be able to help them.Would you have any recommendations for us about how communities can better engage civil society, those service organizations, people who want to make a difference to help seniors live their best lives, especially those who are in long-term care, or seniors who are not in long-term care and just need assistance?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownIsobelMackenzieIsobelMackenzieIsobel-MackenzieInterventionMs. Isobel Mackenzie: (1715)[English] I think it starts by really understanding and respecting the contributions they can make. If you look at long-term care, we didn't value the contributions that families could make. We didn't turn to families and ask them to help us manage the care for their loved one in long-term care. We shut them out.When we look at the community, what the pandemic has done—I live in the part of B.C. where we're worried about earthquakes—is that at the end of the day in many types of disasters, the professional help is not what is going to get you through the day and the next day; it's the neighbour across the street, or in the building. Investments need to be made in promoting those relationships and enhancing those networks. Emergency preparedness for earthquakes, as an example, is something where it ebbs and flows. We get excited about it and we focus on it, and then our attention wanes just like, frankly, preparing for a pandemic. We get excited about it. We pay attention to it, and then our attention wanes and suddenly we find ourselves unprepared for a pandemic.We need to recognize that there has been lots of tragedy, lots of loss—Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Emergency preparednessPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1720)[English]Thank you. We're so short on time, but thank you so much.Over to you, Dan.IsobelMackenzieSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Mr. Mazier.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier (Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, CPC): (1720)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Brad, for sharing your time.Thank you to the witnesses for the great testimony.I want to bring something to your attention that I believe is important. Many seniors cannot navigate through confusing government websites. Some do not even have Internet access due to the rural connectivity divide and affordability concerns. Many seniors in my riding rely on physical government offices to get the support they need. However, the government closed the doors to many offices such as Service Canada. This resulted in Canadians phoning government departments and agencies such as Service Canada and the CRA to get the support they needed.An Order Paper question I submitted revealed that in April 2020 there were nearly six million calls to Service Canada call centres that were unable to even make it to the interactive voice response automated system. The Canadians who did make it through had to wait an average of two hours that month. In January of this year there were over 120,000 calls that hung up while waiting to get hold of the pension call centre. In February, there were over 135,000 and in March there were over 160,000 calls that had to hang up on the same pension call centre.This question is for Ms. Mackenzie. Do you believe that this is an issue for seniors, and how do you suggest the government address these accessibility concerns?COVID-19Digital dividePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownIsobelMackenzieIsobelMackenzieIsobel-MackenzieInterventionMs. Isobel Mackenzie: (1720)[English]I think the issue of how seniors access services, period, is an issue not just for the federal government but also for many private companies. Things are moving online. You have to get your bills electronically, etc. We need to understand that there is a group of people who are going to be left behind as we move toward that digital platform. We certainly saw that in COVID, because they can't navigate the system or they don't have Internet either because they can't afford it or it's not available. We do need to recognize that.I think issues around overloaded call centres and waiting on the phone for long periods of time plagued everybody, not just people over 65. I think what's important and where the federal government can play a role is to recognize that for whatever necessary services a person might need—utilities, banks, etc.—that are federally regulated, they ensure the ability remains for some people to make connections other than through an online connection. For example, regulating that compulsory paperless isn't legal in federally regulated businesses would be helpful for seniors. They find that frustrating, and it has a whole corollary around fraud abuse as other people have to navigate online platforms for people.When you look at seniors proportionately, they are less likely to be tech savvy than younger generations. Whether that changes in 30 years with the tech savvy cohort becoming seniors will remain to be seen, but the 85-plus of today, yes, lots can engage in Facebook and online and all the rest of it, but many can't, and we are leaving them behind a bit.COVID-19Digital dividePandemicSenior citizensDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English] Thank you, Ms. Mackenzie.[Translation]Mr. Lauzon, you have the floor for five minutes.IsobelMackenzieStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1720)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the witnesses wholeheartedly. I think we have the same mission, to improve the lot of those who built our country.My first question is for Mr. Lynch from the Coalition pour la dignité des aînés.In the presentations and in the rounds of questioning, there was a lot of talk about financial health, but almost no mention of issues related to mental health, physical health and isolation.Mr. Lynch, you have a great deal of experience in the area of retiree and pre-retiree rights. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to combat elder abuse.The majority of Canadians and Quebeckers believe that elder abuse is hidden and invisible. In reality, elder abuse is present in CHSLDs, as we have seen, and just about everywhere in daily life. It is often family members or caregivers who abuse seniors physically, mentally or financially.How can we foster safe relationships? How can we prevent violence, including abuse, against older adults? Do you think government investments are a good step in addressing elder abuse? What other ways can the government improve the lot of seniors?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownPierreLynchPierreLynchPierre-LynchInterventionMr. Pierre Lynch: (1725)[Translation]Thank you for your question.Personally, I believe that we need to continue the information campaigns for the general public, to raise awareness of the importance of the phenomenon of abuse and maltreatment. It is important to continue these campaigns. These can be televised or not; the important thing is that everyone see them.Education is also an important component. We talked about the next generations; it's important to educate them, so they know about this phenomenon. I will go even further: we must also educate the cultural communities. In Laval, there are 112 cultural communities. It is important to go to the different cultural communities and to make people aware of the abuse. Very often, elder abuse takes place within families.More information needs to be provided. The more information people have access to, the more awareness they are going to have about this problem. Then there will be less abuse and mistreatment.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1725)[Translation]Thank you very much.Ms. Mackenzie, you talked about aging with dignity. People want to stay at home as long as possible. As you mentioned, the pandemic brought out the desire of seniors to stay at home as long as possible, which is completely understandable. The people who were most vulnerable were those staying in long-term care facilities.As we know, seniors do not necessarily have the supports they need to stay at home. The government has invested $90 million over three years in the new aging with dignity at home initiative to do just that. As a result, there will be services to assist and support seniors, such as home or lawn care or grocery delivery.Do you think this is a good initiative? What could be better than investing in organizations that help our seniors?COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensPierreLynchIsobelMackenzieIsobelMackenzieIsobel-MackenzieInterventionMs. Isobel Mackenzie: (1725)[English] Yes. I think it is a good investment. If you visualize this continuum of aging, people don't start out immediately needing total help. It's an incremental process as we age. We need a little help around the house with some housekeeping, some groceries, some meal preparation, and then we start to need some care. It's really at the care-needing level where it is possibly going to tip over into long-term care. When you ask what more can be done, when we're looking at trying to ensure that people can stay at home and not go into the nursing home, yes, the independent activities of daily living, the IADLs, are important, but it becomes critical to have the care for the activities of daily living as well: the bathing, the feeding, the helping to the toilet, medication management. That's where we're coming up short, in part because, in the federated model, the federal government gives money to the provinces and the provinces decide what the province is going to cover for you. You have a hodgepodge. Some people include housekeeping, some people don't, and also what they charge for it. In B.C., we charge quite a bit for our public home support. A person living on $28,000 a year, who needs a one-hour daily visit, is going to pay $8,000 a year for their public home support. In Alberta, it's free. In Ontario, it's free. In Quebec, there is a fee for it, but it's rebated a bit through income tax, and it's the same, I think, in Manitoba. It's all over the map. I think there is a role for the federal government to play in saying that, as a Canadian citizen, these are the services you are entitled to receive from your government at home, and this is how much you are expected to pay based on your income. It should be the same, and it's all over the map.COVID-19Home care servicesPandemicSenior citizensStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Mackenzie. That's probably an excellent place to leave it. We have arrived at the appointed hour. Although we'd love to continue this discussion, we won't have the resources that we need to extend the meeting, so we have to wrap it up.It has been an excellent and thorough discussion.[Translation]We greatly appreciate your statements, expertise and work in your respective provinces. Thank you very much for being with us and sharing your testimony with us.[English]Thank you so much to everyone. We are now at 6:30, so we'll have to adjourn for the day, but we are very grateful to you for your contribution to the study.Thanks to everyone. The meeting is adjourned.IsobelMackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.)): (1535)[English] I call this meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 36 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.The committee will now proceed to the consideration of matters related to committee business. I will remind members that we are in public and not in camera. I will also remind members that we have a witness coming at 5 p.m.—so in about 22 minutes—Romy Bowers. We were able to secure 90 minutes for her. I would ask that folks be mindful that we will have her here and that we have a limited amount of time for committee business.The other thing that some, but not all, of you are aware of is that I will be ceding the chair to Ms. Dancho at or before 5 p.m. as I have some happy personal business to attend to. I want to thank Ms. Dancho for agreeing to take the chair on my departure.In terms of committee business, it is my hope that we will be able to deal with two things that were raised previously and one new item, at least by way of reference. As you may be aware, yesterday the House referred Bill C-265 to the committee. As a private member's bill referred to the committee, it must be reported back to the House 60 sitting days following the date it was referred. We will receive soon—although we haven't yet—a memorandum from our support people at the House of Commons. We will receive a memorandum—as will independents such as Mr. Manly, who is with us here today—with information that will be of assistance to us in consideration of the bill. That's one thing that we could deal with today.The other things that were previously before us that we'd like to finalize, if possible, in the next 22 minutes are the budget for the seniors study and the question of honorariums and gifts—we have some news on that. There's also the matter of the Centennial Flame Research Award. We have some information to get back to you on that.Colleagues, I'm going to start with a suggestion in connection with Bill C-265, and then we can open the floor. Given that any discussion on how we're going to deal with Bill C-265 is likely to take more than the 19 minutes we now have, it would be my recommendation that we set aside some time for committee business at a future meeting to chart our course with respect to Bill C-265 in terms of how many meetings we should set aside, the timing of those meetings, the submission of witness lists, the amount of time allocated for clause-by-clause, etc. I think that will be a detailed discussion that we're not going to be able to deal with in a cursory fashion.Those are my introductory remarks.I see Madame Chabot.(1540)[Translation] You have the floor, Ms. Chabot.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Committee businessLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): (1540)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. If this is a good time, I would like to talk about Bill C-265. I would like to bring to our attention that we should act with the greatest possible diligence to help us complete this work by the end of the parliamentary session.While significant in scope, this bill is simple in its technical form. I think one or two sessions with witnesses could be sufficient to study this bill.C-265, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (illness, injury or quarantine)Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Chabot.We don't have many meetings before June 24. Also, we will receive the draft report on EI reform on June 7. However, I understand your suggestions and I fully accept them. Are there any other comments on this issue?[English] Ms. Dancho, please.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1540)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm fine to discuss what the plan should be for this bill at our next committee for a bit of time, just to debate it in a more fulsome manner.It sounds like we have a lot on the go today and only about 15 more minutes to get it done. We're happy to have this on the agenda as the first step for the next time we have committee business, which is, hopefully, at the next meeting.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Seeing no other hands raised, can we move to one of the other outstanding items? We will bring this back before the committee the next time we have committee business.We have witnesses invited for the next two meetings, although I see a “to be determined” on the Tuesday panel. If that slot hasn't been filled, we may be able to have three sets of witnesses for one panel and leave some time at the end. That would be one solution. If not, we'll see what we can do on Thursday, June 3.For the next item, you have a budget before you for approval with respect to the study we are currently undertaking, which is the impact of COVID-19 on seniors. It's a budget of $4,300. When we last discussed it, a couple of questions were posed.One was around the possibility of an honorarium and tobacco for indigenous elders who will be included among the witnesses that come before us. With respect to that, the clerk has done a bit of research and has indicated that there is a policy on the issuance of gifts from the official gift bank, which limits the issuance of gifts to either travelling committees or foreign delegations coming before the committee. This would be contrary to that policy. I would also point out as a matter of interest that this isn't something that is done at the indigenous affairs committee.I'm happy to entertain further discussion on this. If there is none, I would ask for a motion that the budget be adopted as presented.Ms. Gazan, please.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): (1545)[English]Thank you so much, Chair, and thank you for your work and research.We know that, historically, the House of Commons is a very colonial institution. At a time when we're passing bills like Bill C-15, I encourage everybody on this committee, but also all members of the House, to really reflect on how sometimes we have to change and shift systems, so that they're truly inclusive and culturally relevant. Particularly, we have to remember that the very places where all of us sit are on indigenous lands in this country. The fact is, those are very small gifts considering the benefit of everybody in the circle.I'll leave it at that. I won't have a grand debate, but I think this is something that really needs to be changed.C-15, An Act respecting the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous PeoplesCommittee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Mr. Vaughan, please.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan (Spadina—Fort York, Lib.): (1545)[English]Can I propose that we draft a letter to send to the House affairs committee to ask for a change in the Standing Orders and the rules and procedures to allow us to honour indigenous elders in this way? It's an established practice and not one of cost, really. It's just a question of how we pay for it and execute it. We could take the lead and suggest that all committees be given permission to honour indigenous elders as they appear as witnesses, especially when we connect studies into indigenous affairs.Secondly, I'll take it upon the government side to facilitate the presentation of the gifts that honour their presence. If we could get the addresses of the elders that are being invited, my office will take care of it as a gesture of goodwill towards establishing a new and good practice.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English] Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.Ms. Gazan, please.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1545)[English]Thank you so much to my colleague Mr. Vaughan. I really appreciate that offer.Particularly as this is a human rights committee, I think this would be a really good practice for us to model. I'll just leave it at that. Thank you very much for that offer. I appreciate it very much.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Ms. Dancho.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1545)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I appreciated the feedback from both Mr. Vaughan and Ms. Gazan. I see their points.Mr. Vaughan, I just want to confirm. Were you saying that we should send a letter as a committee to...was it PROC? I missed where—SeanCaseyCharlottetownAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1545)[English]I think it's PROC. I think it's procedure and House affairs. They are the ones...or is it internal economy? I can't remember which one does which.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1545)[English]I don't know which one either. We were considering getting advice from them, as well as a proposal from us. Perhaps the clerk could come back with a suggestion for how to proceed with getting a further recommendation if we decide as a committee to do a formal letter.Overall, having worked in Manitoba politics for a number of years, I'm very comfortable and familiar with a tobacco gift in particular. I know that's very common in Manitoba. Having an elder come and share their wisdom is a great honour, so I can understand providing a gift.Our only concern with the honorarium is that it may set a precedent for all committees and all witnesses. I think we should get some advice on that before we proceed.Committee businessAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1550)[English]I think the honorarium is a much more complex question, because it does become a matter of equity. However, I think honouring with a gift and the symbolism of that is something we can accomplish quickly. We can then ask the House and PROC or whatever...the clerk can tell us where to send the letter. We can just draft a quick letter suggesting that this become a standard practice for all committees when indigenous elders are asked to open meetings.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1550)[English]Perhaps we could ask that they provide their expert opinion on how to proceed with that. We could get their advice and let them know that we are open to this and would like them to consider it. I think that would be well placed.Committee businessAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1550)[English]I'll bring the letter to the next meeting.In the interim, if the clerk could forward the addresses to me, I'll get the offerings to the elders in question. I'll do my best. I'm not sure I can do it on Amazon—nor would it be appropriate.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Vaughan.Colleagues, I am now going to cede the chair to Ms. Dancho and head off to my other engagement.Thank you for your indulgence. Have a wonderful and productive meeting. Take care.Thank you, Ms. Dancho, and good luck.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to defer to the clerk. We have a few more minutes before the clock strikes four. If it's procedurally fine, we could discuss the Centennial Flame award before we do the sound check for Ms. Bowers. Okay, we'll go into that.Since we have a few minutes, why don't we talk about the Centennial Flame award, settle that and get it out of the way?To recap, last time we had a discussion about $5,500. We were looking to set a date. I believe it was June 16. That's coming up pretty quickly. I'll open it up for discussion.Madame Chabot.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree with what was said during our last discussions on the $5,500 award. So we could go ahead.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1550)[English]To confirm, Madame Chabot, you're good with $5,500. Is that fine, from your perspective? Yes, okay.Go ahead, Mr. Vaughan.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1550)[English]I've been on this committee now, I guess, for.... Around this particular scholarship, it's stayed at this amount, even though the dollar amount from the fountain seems to be going up. I guess as we got rid of pennies, loonies started to appear. People wanted more luck from the Centennial Flame.I think it might be time to revisit that dollar amount and peg it a little higher so that it actually helps the people who are doing the work they're doing. I propose we boost the amount to $7,500 going forward, based on the fund and the way it's grown over the last five years. There are ample dollars in the account. Accruing a larger and larger account isn't helping students.The other alternative would be to have a pair of recipients, but we tend to get only five or six real applications. I would suggest that a higher amount for an individual may be the way to go.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1550)[English] Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.Ms. Falk.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk (Battlefords—Lloydminster, CPC): (1550)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I just want to bring up the fact that last year and this year, we did not and are not really going to see tourism, especially this summer, especially within the pandemic. I am wondering if maybe not this year but maybe in the future.... It would just be unfortunate if we raised it and then ended up depleting the account, depending on how tourism comes back. That's going to depend also on individual provinces and who can travel and that type of thing.I would just be a bit more cautious of jumping the gun during a pandemic and increasing the amount, but that's just my opinion.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1550)[English]Thank you, Ms. Falk.Madame Chabot.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1550)[Translation]First, I spoke in favour of keeping the amount the same. However, Mr. Vaughan reminds us that, with no more pennies, there are more loonies in the centennial flame pool. He feels that there is an opportunity to increase the amount of the award. We know what all the work of the award recipients can mean. Basically, as a sign of appreciation, I am open to the idea of increasing the amount of the award. It is not too much to talk about an additional $2,000. If we have the capacity to do so, I am open to such an increase.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1555)[English]Thank you, Madame Chabot.Mr. Long.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long (Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.): (1555)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I agree that we should increase the amount. I've been on HUMA now for six years, and the amount has not moved. The fact that there is—and I apologize—the number that's in the account right now, $24,000 or what have you.... It doesn't have to be $7,500, but I think an increase is in order, so maybe it's $6,500 or $7,000—whatever the committee feels is appropriate. I certainly am in favour of bumping that up a bit.Thank you, Madam Chair.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1555)[English]Thank you, Mr. Long.Mr. Tochor.WayneLongSaint John—RothesayCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor (Saskatoon—University, CPC): (1555)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would disagree with increasing it this year. It's definitely going to need to be increased as inflation gets uncontrollably high in Canada in the years to come, so I would wait to see how that goes and, on the revenue side, to see if tourism comes back. I would be much more comfortable with a cautious approach of waiting to see where the next year goes.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1555)[English]Thank you, Mr. Tochor.Ms. Gazan.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1555)[English]I would agree with the amount's being increased. I know that things are financially tough during COVID for everybody, but I think that's more of a reason to increase it, particularly because we know that getting employment right now is really difficult. I actually feel like it's more of a reason that we need to increase it right now in the difficult economic times we're in.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1555)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.I believe Mr. Vaughan is next. Then we have Ms. Young and then Mr. Tochor.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1555)[English]I just have a question for the clerks or the support staff.The dollar amounts have been increasing every year for the last few years. In fact, the reserve has been growing faster than.... What is the trajectory that it's on? Where are we in terms of the surplus, and how much has it been growing annually for the last couple of years?Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1555)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan. Those are excellent questions.I'll let the clerk give a definitive answer, but just over $27,000 is what is in there now.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Danielle Widmer): (1555)[English]Yes, you are correct, Madam Chair.Let me take a look at it directly. There is $26,747 right now in the account. It is dependent upon the contributions from those who contribute to the fountain, as well as donations themselves. In 2016, 2017 and 2018, the award amount was $5,500. There was no award distributed in 2019 or 2020, but the amount can be decided by the committee, and it's allowed one award per year.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1555)[English]What was the annual collection from the fountain on a year-by-year basis?Committee businessDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1555)[English]I can actually go back.If you look at 2020, the total amount that was deposited was $2,262. If the committee wants, I can go back and look at old account documents about this. I can usually get annual amounts, but right now I only have the amount for 2020, which is $2,262.Committee businessAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1555)[English]Madam Clerk, could you provide the 2019 amount, so we know what it would be like in a normal year?Committee businessDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1555)[English]I can come back to the committee with that information, yes.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1555)[English] My understanding was that we were collecting more.... Obviously, COVID and construction have pushed people away from the fountain. It was closed for a period of time as it was rebuilt. My understanding and my recollection was we were collecting more in coins than we were giving out, and that was why the remodelling made sense.Committee businessDanielleWidmerRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1555)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.Ms. Young.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young (London West, Lib.): (1600)[English]I just wanted to mention that it doesn't mean, if we increase the amount, that we have to increase it every year. Could we not, every year, look at how much is available and decide how much we're going to give out that year? That's one idea.Certainly, I think it speaks to the fact that most people don't know where that money goes. We need to promote the program and tell people that this is how we're using the money. I think maybe we would get more.Thank you.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1600)[English]Thank you, Ms. Young.It sounds like, just from a general consensus, most seem okay with increasing it by at least a modest sum. As Ms. Young pointed out, we could decrease it if we find that in 2021 there were no donations or there's $2,000 or less and it's not sustainable, which is our goal in this, of course. I know there's not full agreement, but do we have consensus to increase it a modest amount?If that's all right with everybody...I'm not sure. I'm just going to look at all the faces here. Mr. Tochor, you're okay with a modest increase? You're so-so.We also need to pick a date for the deadline for submissions. Before we get to that, we can just finalize the amount. Madam Clerk, we may need a motion. We don't have a full consensus though.Madam Clerk, would you mind chiming in?Committee businessKateYoungLondon WestDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1600)[English]The committee can move a motion in terms of the quantity for the award amount. The last meeting it recommended $5,500. That was proposed. The committee can change the number of that and set a date.At the last meeting, there was a discussion regarding June 15 for applicants to submit their applications. The committee can choose a later date to provide possible applicants additional time. It could be a date sometime in the summer. It's really up to the committee. We just need a motion to adopt the amount and the deadline.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1600)[English]Okay. It may take a little more work and today we're about out of time. Ms. Bowers is here. She wasn't able to provide two hours, but she's here for 90 minutes.Mr. Vaughan, go right ahead.DanielleWidmerAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1600)[English]I was going to suggest, as a compromise, since it's the Centennial Flame award, that we make the amount $6,700. It would be numerically apropos, it would land in the middle, and it would hopefully put us on a sustainable base going forward.You could make the date July 1 to line up with Canada Day. That would allow people to submit in advance of July 1. That would make everything poetically and symbolically tied together.Committee businessRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1600)[English]It sounds like a nice idea. I know we don't quite have consensus yet, so if everyone is comfortable, we can revisit it next time when we revisit the letter we discussed with Mr. Vaughan. I think that might be best. We could settle on that.The clerk just let me know that we do have to pass that budget for the seniors study, as well, since we've discussed what we're going to do with a possible letter and referring to PROC. Is there a consensus for the $4,600 for the seniors study? Is everyone comfortable with that?Everyone looks good.Thank you, Madam Clerk, for these trusty notes. We'll suspend for a few minutes and prepare the witness, to make sure she's got her sound checked and everything. We'll suspend for two minutes.(1600)(1600)Committee businessAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1600)[English]I call this meeting back to order.I have just a few procedural things, really quickly. Pursuant to Standing Orders 110 and 111 and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, May 6, 2021, the committee will commence consideration of the order in council appointment of Romy Bowers to the position of president of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.In addition, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, October 28, 2020, the committee will resume its study of the rapid housing initiative.I'd like to welcome our witness to begin discussion with an opening statement followed by questions.Ms. Bowers, we go over to you.Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers (President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation): (1600)[English] Thank you so much. Thank you to the chair.Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I'm joining the committee today from Toronto, which is the traditional territory of many first nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples.I'm very pleased to meet with the committee today in my new capacity as president and chief executive officer of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. As many of you may know, I was appointed to this position effective April 6, succeeding our former president and CEO Evan Siddall. Prior to this, I served in a number of other capacities at CMHC, first as chief risk officer when I joined the company in 2015, and more recently as senior vice-president of client solutions. Like everybody at CMHC, I'm motivated by our aspiration, “By 2030, everyone in Canada has a home that they can afford and that meets their needs.” Housing affordability is compelling for me personally, because I believe it is essential for our nation and for creating a Canada that is truly equitable and a place where every person can fulfill their potential and prosper.Our aspiration has never been more relevant than it is today. Housing affordability is a top concern for Canadians, heightened in no small part by the COVID-19 pandemic and the new awareness that it's created among us of the sanctuary of a home.We see that house prices continue to rise in major centres across the country. Young households are taking on more and more debt. This represents a substantial threat to Canada's financial stability in the event that interest rates or unemployment levels begin to increase significantly. The current environment is also accentuating the economic divide between those who can afford to purchase a home and those who cannot. At CMHC, our work to improve affordability is supported in part by the national housing strategy, a 10-year, $70-billion plan to give more Canadians a place to call home. (1605)[Translation]National housing strategy programs generally focus on those Canadians who are most vulnerable, such as seniors, people with disabilities, women and children fleeing violence, and people from indigenous and other racialized groups.They also focus on addressing the biggest challenge to affordability, which is the lack of housing supply. Core NHS programs support projects that build new rental homes and renovate existing ones.[English]Federal investments in affordable housing have been growing year by year, including in budget 2020, which proposes to invest $2.5 billion in new funding for housing. The budget also proposes to reallocate $1.3 billion in existing funding to help build, repair and support 35,000 existing housing units sooner than planned. All of this new and accelerated funding will be delivered by CMHC.Of particular note, the government is expanding its investment in the highly successful rapid housing initiative, or RHI. As the committee may know, the RHI was introduced last fall with federal funding of $1 billion to quickly create affordable housing for vulnerable people who have been most affected by the pandemic.At the same time, the goal was also to stimulate the economy, creating good jobs when they're needed most.The initiative provided funding to cover the construction of modular housing, including land acquisition. It also supported projects to convert existing buildings to affordable housing. Cities, provinces, non-profit organizations, indigenous organizations and government bodies were eligible to apply for the RHI funding. Most importantly, all housing had to be created within a year of signing the funding agreement.The results for RHI exceeded all expectations. The original goal of the program was to create 3,000 units of permanent affordable housing. By working with partners and communities across the country, we were able to sign agreements that will create some 4,700 units. We also received many excellent proposals that far exceeded the initial budget.As a result of the success of this approach and the high level of interest and capacity to do more, the government included an additional $1.5 billion for the RHI in budget 2021. This new investment should create another 4,500 units of housing. I'm also pleased to note that 25% of this new funding has been allocated to projects for women, who sadly have been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic. Further details about the RHI will be announced shortly.With the RHI, other budget measures and ongoing programs, it's going to be a very busy year for CMHC. Nevertheless, I have every confidence in the ability of our 2,200 employees across the country to deliver on the government's expectations with respect to the national housing strategy.CMHC will also continue to deliver its commercial programs. This will enable us to support our mandate to support financial stability. Through our mortgage funding programs, we make low-cost funding available to financial institutions to support their lending activities. Our mortgage insurance products, on the other hand, have enabled qualified homebuyers and developers to access financing at very competitive interest rates.Last year, our mortgage insurance products helped more than 94,000 households purchase homes across Canada, and supported the construction of more than 174,000 new homes in multi-unit projects. We will continue to monitor the state of the housing markets across the country to identify signs of potential vulnerabilities. We are also partnering with other stakeholders on research and data collection and analysis to explore innovative solutions to the complex challenges facing Canada's housing system.CMHC has also begun to implement a company-wide strategy to become a climate change leader. We are accelerating our efforts to meet our anti-racism and equity commitments. This is not only integral to our 2030 aspiration, but is of great importance to me personally, as a person of Asian heritage.As for my new role, I'm taking time to meet with our board of directors, management team, employees, affordable housing providers, private developers, the non-profit sector, industry associations, bank CEOs, government partners and indigenous organizations, to list just a few. I have been seeking their insights on their vision for CMHC and the role we should play in the housing system going forward. I'm calling this my “listening tour”. It's been a very productive time so far, and I've listened to many ideas people have regarding the future of CMHC.My own thinking is that there will never be sufficient funding at the federal level to reach our aspiration for housing affordability for everybody in Canada, whether they choose to rent or own. While the national housing strategy provides a very significant investment, a bigger and broader effort is needed. Housing is very complex and is not solely a federal responsibility. In fact, most housing in Canada is provided by the private sector. Having said that, there is a huge opportunity for CMHC to foster greater collaboration between partners to address affordability challenges. CMHC can use its influence and expertise to identify, highlight and address the barriers to housing affordability.On my listening tour, many people have emphasized that the value CMHC brings to housing is a combination of its policy and market expertise, its ability to deliver national housing programs, and its knowledge of the housing markets through its mortgage insurance, mortgage funding and market analysis programs. I believe these strengths and our unique mix of publicly funded and commercial programs position us to harness the power of the private and non-profit sectors to achieve the results we seek—results that we believe will ultimately benefit all Canadians.Chair, I would like to thank you again for the opportunity to meet with the committee today. I'd be very happy to take any questions at this time.Canada Mortgage and Housing CorporationCOVID-19Living standards, incomes and wagesMortgage insuranceNational Housing StrategyPandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingVulnerable personsRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1610)[English] Thank you, Ms. Bowers, for your opening remarks.We'll go to questions now.First up are the Conservatives, with Mr. Vis, for six minutes.RomyBowersBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC): (1610)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you, Ms. Bowers, for appearing today. Congratulations on your new role.You packed a lot into your opening eight minutes and I don't think I'll be able to cover everything I want to talk on today, so I'm just going to jump right to it.Living in the Fraser Valley, one of the most common questions I get from regular Canadians is on foreign buyers' effects on the real estate market. Recently, we heard from Mr. Vaughan that sometimes our system works better for foreign investors than for Canadians. What data is CMHC collecting right now on foreign buyers? Does CMHC backstop the mortgages of foreign buyers?In 2016-17, there was CMHC data that outlined that in Metro Vancouver, one in five buyers of condos was in fact a foreign buyer. What does that look like today?Thank you.Foreign investments in CanadaRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1615)[English]Thank you very much, Chair.I'd like to thank Mr. Vis for his warm words of congratulation.On the subject of foreign buyers, CMHC collects information on this through our rental surveys. We can provide you access to our rental surveys after this meeting.With respect to just the topic of foreign buyers, I believe there were actions in the recent budget to address this issue. Of course, CMHC monitors this issue. However, we don't think this is the most critical issue affecting housing affordability in Canada today. We believe the issues that are giving rise to house price escalation in the markets today are driven by supply factors. For a number of years—and this predates the pandemic—the pace of housing supply creation has not kept pace with demand. From our perspective, that is the single most important factor that has contributed to escalating housing prices.Our recommendation to the committee and to Canadians at large—this was outlined in a 2018 paper that our housing economists provided—is to put the focus on the barriers to housing supply. Again, this is a complex issue that involves action by many levels of government. It's our view that of course it's important to track—Foreign investments in CanadaRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1615)[English]Thank you, Ms. Bowers.I would agree with you. In my assessment, and from what I've been hearing from experts too, supply is the number one factor related to affordability in Canada.You mentioned in your opening remarks that the federal government can work more closely with other levels of government to address the supply challenges we're facing. Can you give some concrete examples of what we could be doing better at the federal level to get more supply built?Cities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1615)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vis.There are a number of programs under the national housing strategy, and most are supply-based programs. We have a number of programs in place that promote the creation of supply. The tools are there at the federal level to create supply, especially supply directed towards the most vulnerable elements of our society.When you look at the housing market as a whole, though, most housing in Canada is provided by the private sector. What prevents supply from being created, especially in our large cities, are things like the development life cycle, zoning, permissions at the municipal level and Nimbyism in many neighbourhoods, which prevents dense housing from being created.Cities and townsNational Housing StrategyRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1615)[English]Thank you.On that point, on municipal bylaw processes, could the federal government play a role in incentivizing municipalities to get through that backlog and adopt policies that are more inclusive, allowing for densification where we need it to get more housing built? Can the federal government play a role there, in your opinion?Cities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1615)[English]Yes, I think that would be something that is definitely worth pursuing. Ultimately, the decision is at the local level, but I think there is merit at the federal level in thinking about what types of incentives we could create to create alignment at the municipal level.Cities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1615)[English] That's very helpful.Earlier in your remarks, you touched upon the budget line item regarding the 1% non-residents tax. I don't think I got that completely right, but you know what I'm referring to. In CMHC's market analysis division, have they done a study of the impact of the proposed 1% non-resident tax and the impact it would have on the Canadian housing market?Foreign investments in CanadaProperty taxRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1620)[English]No, we have not.Foreign investments in CanadaProperty taxRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1620)[English]Would CMHC be open to doing an analysis on the 1% tax?Foreign investments in CanadaProperty taxRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1620)[English]I have to point out, Mr. Chair, that anything related to tax regulation is the responsibility of the Department of Finance, so it may be better to direct this question to the officials there.Foreign investments in CanadaProperty taxRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1620)[English]Okay. That is duly noted.In my neighbourhood, and where you live in Toronto—RomyBowersRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1620)[English]Mr. Vis, your time is up. I apologize.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1620)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1620)[English]Now it's on to the Liberals, with Mr. Dong.Go ahead.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.): (1620)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. You're doing a great job, by the way. I also want to offer my congratulations to Ms. Bowers. Thank you very much for the presentation.With the release of the national housing strategy in 2017, CMHC has become increasingly involved in the financing of affordable housing with the aspiration that by 2030, everyone in Canada has a home that they can afford and that meets their needs.In your opening remarks, you mentioned the inclusion of the not-for-profit sector. I'm a big fan of co-ops and not-for-profit senior residences. Could you talk a bit more about not-for-profits accessing capital under CMHC?Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1620)[English]Again, Madam Chair, I'd like to thank MP Dong for his warm words of congratulation.In terms of the national housing strategy, when you look at what is perhaps the flagship program within the national housing strategy, the national housing co-investment fund, that's a program that provides financing, primarily to the non-profit sector, to promote the creation and repair of affordable housing.We have had great success in the take-up of that. The program is a 10-year program. We're about three years in. We're exceeding our annual targets every year in terms of supporting the financing of affordable housing by many non-profit organizations across Canada.Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1620)[English]Thank you very much for that.I've had conversations with not-for-profit stakeholders in the long-term care or senior home sector. Their feedback is that they feel that the restrictions on them in terms of getting loans from CMHC pose a great challenge and sometimes put them at a great disadvantage compared to the for-profit sector. It's not a criticism, or even a suggestion. I'm just making an observation.Are you confident that CMHC will provide more opportunities to the not-for-profit sector to access low-interest loans from CMHC?Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1620)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair, for that question.There's no doubt that there's more that CMHC can do to improve our client service and ensure that our non-profit clients have access to the NHS programs. I welcome any type of feedback that you may have from your constituents, and we can definitely look into that in terms of things we can do to improve.With respect to the national housing co-investment fund, for example, we have taken many of the criticisms we received about the delivery of the program in the early years, and we have acted on them. We are very pleased to say that we have reduced our turnaround times by about 50% over the past year.Long-term care is a very specific challenge because, as you know, CMHC's mandate is to finance housing, and long-term care often involves a housing-related component but also facilities that are more linked to...let's call it health care. It's possible to use our national housing strategy programs for that, but in cases like long-term care, we often have to involve provincial health authorities in looking at the various aspects of the services that are provided in those facilities, and that creates complexity.I don't know if your constituents are perhaps referring to that—Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1625)[English] I appreciate the difference between the health sector and the national housing strategy. What I'd like to see is overlap of public policies as opposed to creating gaps between public policies.Yes, they fall under the purview of health care; however, at the end of the day we're talking about dwellings for seniors. They live there with additional support. I'm talking about creating more units that will be able to house more seniors. That's how I see it.You mentioned that housing affordability for all by 2030 is your key goal. What are the greatest challenges you face in pursuing that goal?COVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1625)[English]You asked that question at a very interesting time. Our 2030 goal was challenging prior to the pandemic, and I think the challenges are greater now. The pandemic has had a disproportionate impact, as I said in my opening comments, on the most vulnerable in our society. When you look at how the pandemic has impacted Canadians, you see that homeowners have in some cases done better economically than renters, and our most essential workers are in the lower levels of our income distribution.I think the slogan is to build back better. Post-pandemic there's a great opportunity to really address some of the socio-economic divides that exist in society and make the necessary investments so that Canada is truly equitable. The COVID crisis has exposed some of the inequities and inequalities in our society, but I view that as a great opportunity to address those going forward, and housing is a key component of that.COVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingVulnerable personsHanDongDon Valley NorthRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1625)[English]Thank you, Ms. Bowers.Thank you, Mr. Dong.Now we will go to the Bloc, with Mr. Trudel.RomyBowersDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel (Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, BQ): (1625)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Bowers, thank you for being here today. Congratulations on your important appointment. As you mentioned earlier, during this pandemic, CMHC is playing a crucial role in the way out of the crisis. In your introduction, you talked about the rapid housing initiative, a $1 billion program launched in October. It's not a bad program per se. Actually, I think it's very interesting, but I want to talk a little about how the money is being allocated. The first component of $500 million, intended for large cities, allocated only $63 million to Quebec, or 12.8% of the money. As for the second component, there was an agreement with Quebec, we received $116 million, and a project was accepted in the north for the Cree. On balance, however, Quebec, which represents 23% of the Canadian population, has not received its fair share of the $1 billion distributed under this program. When you decide how to distribute the funds, do you take into account the demographic weight of Quebec, for example, which represents 23% of the Canadian population?Province of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1625)[English]I would like to thank MP Trudel for his kind words of congratulation.In terms of the first round of the RHI, the province of Quebec, including all the projects, received approximately 18% of the funding. When you look at how we distributed the funding, you see that there was $1 billion in funding available, and $500 million of that was provided for the major cities. We identified the major cities, and we looked at the level of severe housing need that existed in those cities, as well as accounts of homelessness. We based our allocation of the $500 million on those statistics.The other $500 million was under what was called the project stream. Quebec received a special allocation, but when you're thinking about our methodology, it was for projects other than in the province of Quebec. It was based on the merits of the strength of the various projects that came in.Province of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1625)[Translation]We may not have the same figures. In the first component, money was given to Montreal and Quebec City, for a total of $63 million out of $500 million. According to my calculations, this amounts to 12.8%. There seems to be a shortfall both in the first component and in the total amount of $1 billion.That's a little sad, because a lot of people submitted projects, but few were accepted. Yet, as we know, the need for housing is dire. In Quebec, 40,000 households are waiting for low-cost housing. This brings me back to the fact that the federal government abandoned housing in Quebec 25 years ago. Fortunately, the Société d'habitation du Québec, the SHQ, took over. We set up programs like AccèsLogis, which is a very good program. We developed a social and community approach that is praised across Canada. I have already discussed this with Mr. Vaughan, who sits on the committee. However, it seems that Quebec, because of its successful approach, is penalized in the way CMHC distributes the money.What are your thoughts on that?Province of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1630)[English] As a general comment, I would like to just make the point that the demand for the RHI funding exceeded the amount of funding that was available.We received almost in excess of 3.5 billion dollars' worth of applications for the $500 million that was available. It is true that, unfortunately, we had to put many very worthy applications on hold. I think many of the constituents, perhaps, who were speaking to MP Trudel were many of the applicants that we were, unfortunately, not able to fund.The good news is that in the new budget we have $1.5 billion in additional funding available, and we're in the process of determining how those funds will be allocated. We haven't finished our work on that, but we will be very pleased, in the coming weeks, to share our approach and methodology for how we can advance the additional funding we have received.Province of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1630)[Translation]That's interesting. Thank you, Ms. Bowers.On that point, when the program was launched in October, people were given until December 31 to submit projects. Then the organizations working on the ground were told that they would receive an answer on January 31. Some organizations in my riding, in Montérégie, had made offers to purchase land that ended on March 31. As of March 31, they still had not received a response. I know that you received many projects, but how could you launch a program so quickly without being able to provide answers to the organizations? We are talking about those who work with homeless people and women who are victims of domestic violence, for example. That's very important. Because of processing delays, some projects have not been able to see the light of day. It's a little difficult to understand. Will this be corrected for the second component, which will be $1.5 billion?Province of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingVulnerable personsRomyBowersRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1630)[English]Give a very brief answer, Ms. Bowers.DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1630)[English]Yes. We like to think of ourselves as a learning organization, so we have taken all these comments into account, and we will try our best to make improvements in the second round to address these issues going forward.Thank you for the comments.Province of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1630)[English]Thank you, Ms. Bowers.[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Trudel.[English]We will now go over to the NDP, to Ms. Gazan, for six minutes.RomyBowersLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1630)[English]Thank you so much, Madam Chair. You're doing a great job today.Congratulations, Madam Bowers, on your new post.I just want to build on my colleague MP Dong's comments with regard to the rental construction financing initiative and how it benefited, for the most part, the for-profit sector to the point, in fact, where 90% of the agreements were for the for-profit sector. I will be following up with the non-profit sector in my riding to get recommendations to you as soon as possible from many who felt really left out of the program.That particular program was also criticized with regard to the whole definition of affordability. For example, in Ottawa, $2,750 would meet this definition of “affordable”. The report highlights projects that were considered affordable but were well above average market rent. This is certainly an issue in the city of Winnipeg and in my riding.When the government says it has helped over one million Canadians find affordable housing, does this include units that meet the RCFI's definition of affordable, which I would argue is not affordable for many?Rapid Housing InitiativeRental Construction FinancingRental housingSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1635)[English]I would like to thank MP Gazan for her kind words of congratulation.With respect to the RCFI program specifically, I always like to think of the national housing strategy as a very broad tent. The housing continuum is very broad, and although most of the programs are focused on more deeply affordable housing, we want to include programs that support the rental sector.For many years, there has not been growth in purpose-built rentals in Canada, and the RCFI program was developed specifically to provide new rental housing for middle-class Canadians versus people at lower income levels.I know that when you're actually looking at the rents that are being charged for RCFI projects, it's important to compare the rents not to the market in general but to the rents for new buildings that are being constructed.We are pleased with the RCFI program because it generates new units in rental, which is very much needed, and we are able to drive greater affordability than—Rapid Housing InitiativeRental Construction FinancingRental housingSocial housingLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1635)[English] Unfortunately, with all due respect, it's really left a lot of people in my riding behind; it's the third-poorest riding in the country. Building on that, you spoke about historically marginalized groups. Certainly that was highlighted in the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. In fact, a report by the Native Women's Association of Canada stated that first nations women living off reserve experience “gendered and racialized discrimination by potential property owners”, which affects their ability to find adequate housing. In talking about people who fall outside of the definition of “middle class”, I'm still trying to figure out what that is, with all due respect.With this in mind, my question is this. How is the CMHC responding to the calls to justice of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, for example, calls for the establishment of long-term, sustainable funding of indigenous-led, low-barrier shelters; safe spaces; transition homes; second-stage housing and services for indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA people?Indigenous peoplesRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingVulnerable personsRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1635)[English]At CMHC, we have a group that is responsible for delivering housing programs to indigenous communities and Canadians who live in the north. There are probably about 70 people in that group, and their sole objective is to make sure all the programs under the national housing strategy are available to indigenous Canadians.We work very hard every day with organizations that serve indigenous Canadians, to ensure that the federal housing programs that exist are made available to them.I was very pleased to see, in the recent budget, the commitment, for example, that 25% of the new RHI funding that's available will be dedicated to women and children fleeing violence.Indigenous peoplesRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingVulnerable personsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1635)[English]Just to build on that, because I have a limited amount of time, I note that in Winnipeg we have the highest number of indigenous people and indigenous families in core housing need in the country. I would say that amount needs to be increased substantially to really lift up this basic human right. Going back to your CMHC biography, you stated that you believe that “CMHC can be a catalyst for solving housing affordability challenges and a leader in building a housing system that is equitable and free of systemic racism.” We know there's a lot of discussion about systemic racism. In order to get out of systemic racism, it's important to identify and know how structures and current systems perpetuate the ongoing colonization and racism in order to change—Indigenous peoplesRacial equalityRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1635)[English]Madam Gazan, perhaps you would ask a question. Your time is up, and we will have a brief answer, please.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1635)[English]Sure. —these systems. Can you speak to how the CMHC has participated and continues to participate in acts of systemic racism?Racial equalityRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1640)[English]One of the privileges I've had in working at CMHC is that I've had the opportunity to serve many indigenous communities. I recognize that in delivering federal government programs, there's systemic racism built into some of the assumptions we have in how we set our criteria and develop programs. This is something we've taken to heart at CMHC. We believe that reconciliation is at the heart of what we do, and we recognize that sometimes unconscious biases and how we operate as a federal Crown corporation can be acts of systemic racism.We have a mandatory training program at CMHC to enable all employees to learn about indigenous culture and history, to ensure that when we deliver and design programs, we take into consideration—Indigenous peoplesRacial equalityRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1640)[English]Thank you, Ms. Bowers. Perhaps you can consider that in our next round. RomyBowersLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1640)[English]Thank you for letting me indulge, Ms. Dancho.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1640)[English]All right. We're going to go back to the Conservatives for the second round.We go over to you, Mr. Vis.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1640)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Ms. Bowers, do you believe in the last year that the 2030 goal of CMHC is closer to being achieved or further away from being achieved?COVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1640)[English]As I stated, I think the pandemic has created a situation where there is a greater divide between the haves and the have-nots.COVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1640)[English] Unfortunately, because of the pandemic, the extra spending and low interest rates, the country has become less affordable.COVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1640)[English]However, at the same time, I think there is a public mood where we actually see these inequalities. I think there is huge public support for making the necessary investments to make sure that the gap between the haves and the have-nots is closed. I'm very optimistic that post-pandemic, there is a great opportunity to make investments—COVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1640)[English]Thank you.Many Canadians cannot afford the 20% down payment required for an uninsured mortgage and are required to pay for mortgage insurance through CMHC. Recently, CMHC provided a $3.5-billion dividend payment to the Government of Canada. Why is CMHC paying into the federal government general revenue fund instead of reducing insurance rates or offering rebates to lower-income Canadians who are just getting into the housing market in this crazy time?Mortgage insuranceRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1640)[English]I'd like to point out that the mortgage insurance system that exists in Canada is a legislative requirement. CMHC and two other private companies provide mortgage insurance. As you know, it's a legislative requirement for people who don't have a 20% deposit on their houses to purchase the mortgage insurance and—Mortgage insuranceRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1640)[English]Thank you, Ms. Bowers.Mayor Hurley, the chair of the Metro Vancouver housing committee, shared with me yesterday that his city has nine shovel-ready housing sites—six for the national housing co-investment fund, and three for the rapid housing initiative—none of which received funding for construction. Why has CMHC ignored Burnaby? It's one of the most expensive places to live in Canada.Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1640)[English]That's fair enough. With respect to Burnaby, as I mentioned, for the three RHI projects, we just received the $1.5 billion in housing. A number of projects are on hold—Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1640)[English]I'm going to give my plug for the mayor of Burnaby today, that they need more from CMHC in that community. I was shocked that they did not having anything yet except for funding under the rental construction financing initiative. Burnaby needs support.On Burnaby, the mayor told me his staff had to fill out 250 pages of paperwork to receive seed funding of $50,000 per project for three projects. That's 750 pages for $150,000. You mentioned earlier that the application processing time has been reduced. Has there been any action on reducing the administrative burden of applying for funds under the co-investment fund?Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1640)[English]As I mentioned previously, we have been working very assiduously with our proponents to reduce the administrative burden. We have a fantastic group in B.C. that is working with proponents in Burnaby to make their applications a reality. Burnaby has been successful in receiving seed funding for those projects. I've just received an update with respect to the co-investment projects in line. What's happening is that co-investment requires investment from other levels of government—Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1645)[English]I'm going to have to jump to one final question. I think I made my point there.The government responses to my Order Paper questions on the rapid housing initiative have been distributed to all members of the committee. Unfortunately, very little useful data was actually provided. The majority of the information was redacted. I would ask that CMHC provide the unredacted version of these documents to the committee.To that point, I will move the following motion: “That CMHC provide the committee with the complete and unredacted versions of Order Paper questions 244 and 420 within 10 business days.”Thank you, Madam Chair. I bring that to the floor.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vis, for your motion. I would ask that you email it to the clerk as soon as you can, so that it can be distributed to everyone.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1645)[English]I will do so right away.Thank you, Ms. Bowers, for appearing today. I appreciated the discussion.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Madam Clerk, may I ask for your feedback? Would you mind letting us know if we have to debate the motion now, or are we just putting it on the floor? I want to confirm, to make sure we're following procedure.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1645)[English] Mr. Vis didn't move the motion, so it is on the floor right now.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Okay, so we can move forward.Mr. Turnbull.DanielleWidmerRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull (Whitby, Lib.): (1645)[English]I would just request, if possible, that we have the motion in both official languages.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Yes, I believe we've been doing that.Mr. Vis, I'll empower you to provide that or work with the clerk to do so.Ms. Falk.RyanTurnbullWhitbyBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1645)[English][Technical difficulty—Editor] translate it right now.Thank you.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Thank you.Ms. Falk.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1645)[English]I'm just wondering if we are debating the motion right now. Is that the step we're at, or are we just waiting until everybody receives the motion?RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]We just confirmed with the clerk that Mr. Vis did not move the motion. He just put it forward. It's put forward now, but we're not debating it. Is that correct, Madam Clerk? Yes. I see you nodding.[Translation] Ms. Chabot, you have the floor.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1645)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, you have answered the question. I was going to say that we don't think the motion needs to be debated now. We understand that it has just been put forward. So let's give the witness the floor and continue our work.Thank you.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Thank you, Madam Chabot.Mr. Turnbull.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1645)[English]I think I left my hand up from before, but I do have an additional comment.I noticed that my colleague, Mr. Vis, said that he was just undertaking the translation.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1645)[English]Sorry, it was already sent. My apologies, Mr. Turnbull.RyanTurnbullWhitbyRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1645)[English]Okay, thanks. I just wanted to make sure, because I think the Standing Orders require the translation bureau to do the translation. I just wanted to make sure that we were following that.Thanks.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.I want to ensure that, moving forward, all the motions put forward are done.RyanTurnbullWhitbyBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1645)[English]Madam Chair, when I submitted the motion, I forgot that I did it earlier. I did the motion automatically in both official languages, so that was sent.Thank you.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1645)[English]Great. So, you speak French. Thank you, Mr. Vis.I think we can move on now to questions again.We are going to go to the Liberals for five minutes.Ms. Young.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1645)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Thank you, Ms. Bowers, for appearing today. I was thinking that I'm sure taking over the CMHC during a pandemic can't be easy, but you're obviously the right person for the job, so thank you very much for appearing today.I want to pick up on what MP Vis questioned you on. You were just starting to talk about how optimistic you are about the future. I want to give you an opportunity to express what your thoughts are about where we're going and the optimism that you see.Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1645)[English]First of all, I think there are two aspects to my optimism. One is that CMHC is a great Canadian institution. I'm very blessed to be surrounded by employees who are committed to doing their best to serve Canadians. We have employees who are distributed across the country, and their jobs are to help proponents gain access to very important federal funding that supports the development of affordable housing across the country. It's a privilege for me to be leading such a dedicated workforce. That is one source of optimism.Another source of optimism is when I think about the national housing strategy. The $70-billion commitment is a significant commitment. CMHC, as an organization, is focused on delivering on that. There were some hiccups in the early years in terms of delivery, but I feel we have the great ability to deliver on the government programs. I have great confidence. We received over $3 billion in funding through the most recent budget, and I feel confident that we can deliver that quickly. That investment will have a very meaningful impact on the lives of many Canadians, especially those who are most vulnerable.I mentioned the top-up to the rapid housing initiative, which is fantastic. We also have an opportunity to bring forward funding for the co-investment program, which will be great. In addition to that, there was a theme about helping women and children. I'm particularly pleased that there was $300 million of additional funding for the Canada housing benefit, particularly targeting women and children who are fleeing family violence. I think there's a lot of good we can do with the program.In addition to that, the biggest funding aspect of the most recent budget is $4.4 billion in energy retrofits for home owners. We at CMHC are very committed to climate change, and we recognize that housing stock is a very big emitter of greenhouse gas emissions. We feel blessed that the government has entrusted us to deliver on this very important program to address greenhouse gas emissions in the housing sector. We're very pleased to deliver on that as well.Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1650)[English] Thank you very much for that. There's a lot there to unpack and I am particularly pleased to hear about the 25% through the rapid housing going to women and children. That is obviously most needed.I want to mention also that this committee just finished a study on indigenous housing, urban, rural and northern housing, and the recommendation is for a stand-alone organization run by indigenous for indigenous.I just want to get your thoughts on the recommendations we put forward, if you've had a chance to see them at this point.Indigenous peoplesRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1650)[English]I haven't had a chance to look at the recommendations in great detail, but I have taken a high-level overview of them. Obviously we wait for the response by the government in terms of how we would respond to the recommendations. In the event that CMHC is responsible for any of these responses or the action plans, we're ready to support any type of implementation. As I mentioned, reconciliation is a key aspect of our strategy and mandate. We have employees who are very committed to the concept of housing by the indigenous for the indigenous, and we believe some of the values that we espouse as a Crown corporation are very aligned with some of the principles that I saw in just the very high-level aspects of your recommendations.Therefore, we're very happy to support what comes out of that.Indigenous peoplesIndigenous policyRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingKateYoungLondon WestRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1650)[English]Thank you, Ms. Young.We're going to go on to the Bloc Québécois, with Monsieur Trudel, please. RomyBowersDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1650)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Bowers, I'd like to come back to the rapid housing initiative. In the first round of the RHI, the projects that were submitted across Canada totalled $4 billion. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities called for a reinvestment of $7 billion in the same program. Clearly, they felt that the funds allocated to the program were not sufficient to meet the needs, as the agencies also testified. Are you at CMHC considering asking the government to put more money into this program in the near future?Cities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1650)[English]At CMHC, we are very committed to addressing homelessness in Canada. We view this as something that is very important to address. We're very pleased to have been entrusted with delivering the first $1 billion of the rapid housing initiative. We're very pleased again to receive an additional $1.5 billion, given the need, and we're here to follow the direction of government and are prepared to make sure that, whatever funds are made available to address homelessness, we get this money out to the communities and organizations that are serving homeless people on a day-to-day basis. Cities and townsHomelessness and homelessRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1655)[Translation]Okay. Let's talk about the second component, of $1.5 billion. Organizations are waiting to know the details. In Quebec, most of the people who submitted a project under the first component have received negative responses. They were told to wait and see if there would be new funds. Yes, additional funds were injected in the new budget and the second component now totals $1.5 billion. I have heard from people that they have invested thousands of dollars to prepare and submit projects for CMHC programs. Will people who submitted a project before Christmas, under the first component, automatically be reconsidered in this second component, which was increased to $1.5 billion as a result of the budget?Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1655)[English]Ms. Bowers, please provide just a short answer. DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1655)[English]The final terms and conditions of version two of the rapid housing initiative are still being developed, and as soon as we have clarity on that, we'll provide them to the public. Under all circumstances, we want to make sure for all proponents that the application process is simple and that we reduce any rework or any additional administrative burdens. Rapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Trudel.[English]Now we'll go over to the NDP for two and a half minutes.Ms. Gazan.RomyBowersLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1655)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.Madame Bowers, it's abundantly clear. It's becoming clearer that housing is no longer something that serves as a shelter and home for Canadians, but an asset for investors on Bay Street. This has happened and continues to happen at the expense of people, especially low-wage workers and racialized individuals who, as you've indicated, see a greater proportion of their disposable income go towards housing, sometimes up to 75%. That's something that's actually very common in my riding.At the CMHC, we need leadership to correct this trend and to ensure that housing is a basic right that all Canadians can enjoy without taking on absurd levels of debt. Are you committed to restoring housing as a basic human right, and if so, how?Living standards, incomes and wagesRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingVulnerable personsRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1655)[English]As you know, an essential aspect of the national housing strategy is a national housing strategy act, which makes the commitment that Canada views housing as a right, and we're working towards the progressive realization of that right.In the last year, we saw the establishment of the National Housing Council. I was very pleased to participate in that council as part of one of my first meetings when I became the CEO. I think the process is under way to appoint the national housing advocate, which is also a key component of looking at housing as a right.When you look at the national housing strategy programs, which are diverse in nature, you will see that there is a focus on the most vulnerable in our society. We have programs such as the RCFI, but that is more of an exception. The vast majority of the programs under the national housing strategy focus on the most vulnerable. At CMHC, we're committed to working especially with Canadians who are not well served by the private market, and we make every effort to ensure that every dollar of investment for Canadians who are made most vulnerable has the most positive impact. Living standards, incomes and wagesRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingVulnerable personsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1655)[English]I asked that question because I understand, for example, that CMHC provides mortgage loan insurance to private lenders such as commercial—RomyBowersRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1655)[English]I'm sorry, Ms. Gazan. Your time is up. We will go back to the Conservatives for five minutes.Mr. Vis. LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1655)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'd like to go back to the point I raised at the end, last time, and the motion I moved. I believe I was in order, because you are able to move a motion on the floor related to the subject matter at hand, so I'd like that motion to stand and I'd like to have a recorded vote or a—Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1700)[English]Mr. Vis, I believe the clerk and I thought you had presented the motion, rather than moving it. It was my mistake. My apologies.You have moved the motion and it is in order. We have all received it in our inboxes and it has been translated.You are calling for a recorded vote. Is that correct?Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1700)[English]That is correct.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1700)[English]Thank you.Mr. Vaughan.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1700)[English]I have a bit of a concern about the motion as presented. It asks for detailed listings of all the applications, including the addresses and the price points that have been quoted as part of the application process.This would put in jeopardy every single one of the applications, as they are all now currently on hold, waiting for the new dollars to arrive. If we simply produce the list of 700 assets across this country, with price points, and disclose that information, as well as the municipal address, we would be effectively putting out a shopping list to competitive bids that would undermine the integrity of the program, and also would put every one of these projects at risk of not being realized in real time.The reason the property information is redacted is to protect the proprietary interests of both the vendor and the seller. The way this motion has been drafted is incredibly irresponsible and, as I said, would violate the trust that many of the applicants and many of the vendors have invested into this process. As I said, it would put in jeopardy our even being able to hopefully recognize some of these projects as being viable.Therefore, I would ask that the committee defeat this motion. I think what the member is looking for is a list of applicants, not the details of the financial information. If Mr. Vis could redraft the motion, I think we could find a way to support it, but as it's currently drafted, it would blow this whole process right out of the water and destroy the opportunities for housing providers from coast to coast to coast to realize these projects.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.Ms. Falk. AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1700)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.What's frustrating is that when there are Order Paper questions asked by the opposition, we see a lot of documents come back redacted. If there wasn't a trend on this, maybe there would be a little more trust there, but the opposition is just doing its job of holding the government to account. Therefore, I would hope we'd vote for this so that we could get the information that Mr. Vis requested in the first place. Thank you.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1700)[English]Thank you, Ms. Falk.Mr. Vis. RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1700)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair.The purpose of my motion today and what I'm looking for is transparency. I'm open to a friendly amendment to take away some of the information on pricing, but I believe Canadians have a right to know the list of projects. I'm not asking for a lot here. I am asking for information about who applied, who was accepted and who was rejected. The basis behind that is that one of the applications from my riding in the St'át'imc Nation was rejected, and I don't think they received adequate information. The second reason refers to my earlier testimony. With the mayor of Burnaby and chair of Metro Vancouver Housing indicating that despite Burnaby being one of the least affordable places in Canada, they receive no money for shovel-ready projects in that community.I'm prepared to hear a friendly amendment from Mr. Vaughan to take away maybe the price point of that information, to make sure we can stay within the bounds of privacy. Ultimately, I'm just asking for which projects were accepted and which were rejected. I'm not asking for the world here.Thank you, Madam Chair.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vis.Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Ms. Gazan is next.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1700)[English]Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair.I don't seem to have a copy of the motion in my mailbox.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1700)[English]We can ensure that it gets to you. I believe the clerk can make that happen.I believe Madame Chabot was next.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair. This is quite a meeting for you today. With regard to the motion put forward unexpectedly by our colleague Mr. Vis, I must say that I am sensitive to the transparency argument. Who is not in favour of transparency and access to as much information as possible? I do not know if our colleague has had bad experiences with other requests in other committees. Having said that, I am also very sensitive to issues of contracts, finances and confidentiality. If the objective is to find out which projects have been rejected or accepted in a constituency or territory, I think that necessarily requires an amendment. I am compelled to say that, if the motion were to pass in its present form, some information could be disclosed that is not necessary or even safe.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1705)[English]Thank you, Madame Chabot.Mr. Tochor.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1705)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I support Mr. Vis's motion on the transparency of the awarding process. I do understand Adam's comment. We don't want to sidetrack anything, and I think a friendly amendment from Adam on the motion would hopefully have the whole committee voting in favour of transparency where it doesn't hurt overall projects. I look forward to hopefully hearing Adam's amendment.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Tochor.Mr. Vaughan.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1705)[English] I was going to cover this in the question. Under the housing accord with Quebec, the Quebec government sets the criteria and then chooses the projects. We don't have the information as to what criteria or which ridings they chose or which projects and project applications they moved ahead with. We're being asked for information that is not entirely within our jurisdiction. We have to respect the decisions that the Quebec National Assembly and the Quebec government made.On the amendment, it is a very long, complex and detailed set of requests that have been put here. For example, when we put in place an application that comes from a particular housing application, when they ask for the riding, is it the location of the proponent or the location of the housing? For example, in Winnipeg Centre we had an application that was put forth the other day by a company in one riding for a project in a different riding. We announced it in the riding and the MP in question wasn't invited to the announcement because we thought we were in a different riding at the time. There's a lot more to this equation than simply the information you're asking for.I understand the need to understand which projects got funding, which ones didn't and why, but it's more complex than just the federal government or just the CMHC making these decisions. I will go back to the point I raised earlier. I'm not going to fix this motion. The proponent can fix their own motion, but they are asking for us to disclose confidential, proprietary information and detailed financial transactions in a public way to a public body that would literally blow up the process that is currently under way. I would suggest that it would violate the good faith that both vendors and proprietors have put forth in these applications. They were never told they were going to have to disclose their financial information, which properties they were trying to acquire, the dollar amounts they proposed to put on the table or the funding sources for those dollar amounts, which are all part of this calculation.I would suggest that the member withdraw the motion and come back with a clearer motion. I'd be happy to work with them to get the information they want. The way this is drafted puts at risk everything on rapid housing 2.0 and every single project that's currently on hold awaiting new funding, which is now being delivered by the budget implementation act and the budget.This motion is a really serious overreach. I understand the intent and support the intent in principle, but in practice and in detail, this will literally take projects out of the hands of non-profit providers and hand them over to somebody else. Who knows what the consequences of that will be? Who knows what the consequences will be to people who have purchase offers that will then expire as a result of this information being disclosed? Who knows what legal remedies may be available to those individuals? They have invested dollars in trying to acquire these properties, only to see a committee of the House of Commons disclose all of the business dealings prematurely and therefore put at risk their security deposits.There are a lot more implications to what Mr. Vis is asking for than what is currently in this motion. I would ask everyone to take a step back, focus the request more properly and deal with it in a responsible way. Don't put at risk the transactions that are on hold right now, awaiting future funding.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.Welcome to the committee, Mr. Manly. Go ahead.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkPaulManlyNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89485PaulManlyPaul-ManlyNanaimo—LadysmithGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ManlyPaul_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Paul Manly (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, GP): (1705)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I don't have a vote on this committee, but I would just like to support what Mr. Vaughan has said. I know in my riding, the City of Nanaimo has deals for properties going on with BC Housing, which cannot be disclosed. This is proprietary information. It would cause serious damage to the projects that are being proposed and that have gone forward with their application.I love transparency. I want to see money flowing. We didn't get money in Nanaimo—Ladysmith for the rapid housing initiative. A couple of really good projects were proposed and the proponents are waiting for the next round to come. They cannot have this information that is part of their application disclosed. It would just create havoc. It will actually sink those projects.I would agree with Mr. Vaughan. I hope the rest of the committee does as well, and doesn't support this motion.Thank you.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1710)[English]Thank you, Mr. Manly. Again, welcome to HUMA. It's quite the day to be joining us.Mr. Vis, go ahead.PaulManlyNanaimo—LadysmithBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1710)[English]Mr. Vaughan can wordsmith all he likes. As I suggested, I would be open to a friendly amendment on excluding proprietary information, but I received redacted documents from the government—after this government promised to Canadians that it would outline everything on March 31, and did not—and now am told I'm being irresponsible as a parliamentarian.... I was given a bunch of black pages by the Government of Canada when I asked for transparency. To then make it seem that I'm the irresponsible one for fighting and that Mr. Vaughan, the parliamentary secretary, is accountable to Canadians on the decisions of the government is misleading to all the members here.I am open to a friendly amendment. I'll table one right now that maybe the lawyers, through the HUMA committee, exclude proprietary information but list the project names that were approved and those that were rejected to this committee. All I'm after is which projects were rejected and which ones were approved. He could have given that to me in the Order Paper questions, but Mr. Vaughan and his department decided to give us zero information.Thank you, Madam Chair.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1710)[English] Thank you, Mr. Vis.Ms. Falk.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1710)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I need to comment on the bullying language that I felt Mr. Vaughan was exhibiting.What's very frustrating for me is that this is a government that has been riddled with scandal, cover-ups and redactions. As I mentioned earlier, this has been a trend since the previous Parliament, where we've seen pages just blacked out, sometimes with no letters on them whatsoever.Our job, especially as Her Majesty's loyal opposition, is to hold this government accountable, and we owe it to the people who sent us here, who are Canadians. I don't appreciate that we are being threatened that everything could implode, especially to Mr. Vis's point that he got nothing when he asked these Order Paper questions. Even if a little had been given there, it would be better than what this is.Again, on the track record of this government with scandals and cover-ups, I don't think I would be in a position to vote against this for the sake of transparency. If the government is not hiding anything and Mr. Vaughan is true to his word, I would assume that he would make an amendment that would be plausible to the government to show and reveal the answers to Mr. Vis's questions.Thank you.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1710)[English]Thank you, Ms. Falk.I just want to confirm something. Mr. Vis, did you put forward an amendment? I may have missed that. I apologize.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1710)[English]I would be out of order.I can't put forward an amendment to my own motion, so I'll ask one of my colleagues to move that.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1710)[English]My apologies. I just wanted to confirm that.Back to the speaking order, we have Madam Chabot.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot: (1710)[Translation]Don't look at me for that, Madam Chair. I wanted to intervene because I have the impression—it's an impression—that we are currently going off the rails. Under the rules of the game, I don't think Mr. Vis is going to get what he wants. Even the Access to Information Act would not allow access to such sensitive data. So what exactly do we want? I have a proposal for the committee to behave and let us finish the remaining 15 minutes with the witness. I don't actually know what the rules of procedure are, but is it possible, after a motion is put forward, to reword it and debate it at a future meeting? If we are going to debate the motion as is, I'm going to oppose it, Madam Chair.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1715)[English]Thank you, Madam Chabot.Ms. Gazan, please.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1715)[English]Thank you so much.I hear the frustration in my colleague, Mr. Vis's voice. I feel frustrated most days, so I just want to say that I appreciate your frustration.In saying that, even in listening to the presentation today from Madam Bowers, there were certain considerations for projects. In all fairness to Mr. Vaughan, there are different ways that decisions are made in terms of funding allocations throughout the country, and I think that factors in.I would have to vote against it simply because I just don't have the information. I haven't had a chance to, for example, look over Order Paper questions 244, 350 or 420, so I don't even know what I would be voting in favour of or against.I'm going to propose that we table this for the next meeting. That will give us all a chance to do some research. I certainly have some research to do, with what's been brought up in committee, so that I can vote in good conscience either for or against.Right now my vote is certainly against because I just don't have the information to vote properly.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1715)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan.Mr. Vis.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1715)[English] Thank you, Madame Gazan. I will note that I had those Order Paper questions distributed to all committee members in both official languages a number of weeks ago already. They should be in your inbox. Do you know what? I didn't actually expect our committee to be disrupted in this way, but I really am trying to get answers on the rapid housing initiative, and when I get black pages from the government, that doesn't sit well with me as a parliamentarian who's responsible for fighting on behalf of my constituents, many of whom are indigenous and many of whom were upset with this program and the approach. Furthermore, when I'm hearing from people like the mayor of Burnaby, chair of the Metro Vancouver housing committee, that there are some big problems, I have a responsibility to push for more information.Sunshine is always the best medicine. I think there's an easy way around this, noting Mr. Vaughan's concerns around proprietary information. I understand that. That's why I was open to a friendly amendment, but he doesn't want to be accountable in a way that exposes his decision-making to the people of Canada. I understand that.That's the last comment I'm going to make on this today. Really, I didn't think it would come to this today, but my point is that transparency is always better than black pages.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1715)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vis.Mr. Tochor.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1715)[English]Yes, Madam Chair.I'd like to make the following amendment to the motion: “That CMHC provide the committee with the complete and unredacted versions of Order Paper questions Q244, Q350 and Q420 within 10 business days”—here's where the amendment would carry on—“with the exception of confidential monetary figures and proprietary information that could inhibit current and future projects.”I am working on a translation right now, which will be forwarded to the members.Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1715)[English]Thank you, Mr. Tochor. I will defer to the clerk. Is the amendment in order, Madam Clerk?CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1715)[English]I would like to receive that in writing first.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1715)[English]Thank you, Mr. Tochor.Is there any discussion on the amendment while we wait for that? It doesn't look like there is.Mr. Turnbull.DanielleWidmerRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1715)[English]I really need to see it in writing in order to be able to read it and reflect on it.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1715)[English]Okay, thank you.I'm just getting a note. We have to wait until it's received. Madam Clerk, could you let us know?Why don't we suspend for a minute while you receive it, Madam Clerk, if that's in order? I see you nodding.Mr. Tochor.RyanTurnbullWhitbyCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1720)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I wasn't aware of this motion before today. I think the reaction of the government to this motion is very telling. There's something there. There's a reason they don't want to release this information, and I think the sooner we move on this motion to find out which projects were approved and which ones were declined, the better off the country is.I think it's a fundamental part of the transparency that's lacking of late in Ottawa and in our country, and I look forward to hopefully having the vote here shortly.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1720)[English]All right.If there are no other comments on the amendment, I believe we have to—please, Madam Clerk, correct me if I'm wrong—vote on the amendment.I will call the question.CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1720)[English]Madam Chair, I have a point of order. Have we all received a copy of that? I don't have a copy of the—RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulDanielleWidmerDanielleWidmerDanielle-WidmerInterventionThe Clerk: (1720)[English]It has just been sent to all the members.RyanTurnbullWhitbyRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1720)[English]I just received it. Do you want to give it a minute, take a look, and then we can vote?DanielleWidmerRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1720)[English]It would be really great to have a minute to actually look at it before we vote, because I need to know what I'm voting on, if that's okay.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1720)[English]All right.We will take a minute.RyanTurnbullWhitbyRyanTurnbullWhitby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105480RyanTurnbullRyan-TurnbullWhitbyLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TurnbullRyan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ryan Turnbull: (1720)[English] On another point of order, Madam Chair, may I request, in view of this not having been put on notice in advance, that we have just a couple more minutes of suspension to confer with our team, just to review this? I think that would be pretty standard practice within the normal proceedings of our committee.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1720)[English]We can take perhaps a two-minute suspension, just because we are coming up to the end and we will need to do the vote before we hopefully.... I think the procedure is we'd have to vote on this, since it's been called. We'll take a two-minute suspension so you can confer with your colleagues, beginning now.(1720)(1725)RyanTurnbullWhitbyRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1725)[English]Madam Clerk, perhaps you could call the roll.(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 3)Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeRecorded divisionsSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1725)[English]Thank you, Madam Clerk. I know we are running out of time here.As the amendment has been defeated, I believe we go back to debating the original motion, or we could call the vote on that as well, if you could just give me a little direction here.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1725)[English]Call the vote.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1725)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.I'll call the vote on the motion of Mr. Vis.(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 3 [See Minutes of Proceedings])The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): Thank you, Madam Clerk. We'll move on.Thank you, Ms. Bowers, for your patience and your intelligent remarks today. I know we are just running out of time here.With our remaining minutes, I believe, Mr. Vis, it was your round, so please proceed. Actually, we are out of time now, so it's officially the end. Unless there is a consensus to continue.... I assume there is a consensus to adjourn, but I'm just looking around—Amendments and subamendmentsMotionsRapid Housing InitiativeRecorded divisionsSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1730)[English]On a point of order, the practice of this committee has been to apportion time equally in questioning, and seeing as we have not achieved that yet, I would ask that the chair allow Mr. Vis to continue his final minute, and then that the next Liberal be given their turn, and that would apportion time equally in a way that would be fair to all participants.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1730)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.He actually had five minutes in his.... He had taken up less than one minute, so he'd have four.Again, I'm not sure of the availability of Ms. Bowers or others, but if everyone is fine to just finish off those two rounds, we can absolutely jump right into that.Ms. Bowers, are you available for another nine minutes?AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1730)[English] Yes, of course. I'm very happy to be here.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1730)[English]Thank you very much.Go ahead, Mr. Vis, please, for four minutes.RomyBowersBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1730)[English] I have four minutes remaining? Okay.Furthermore, Madam Bowers, on the RHI, CMHC did not meet its promised deadline of March 31. Could you provide...? Well, I'm not even going to ask that question anymore.Please explain how CMHC came to predict a 9% to 18% decline in home prices early on in this pandemic.CostsCOVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1730)[English]When that prediction was made, we were in, I think, April or May, during the very early days of the pandemic, when there were very deep uncertainties about the future of the economy and also the role of government supports in providing mitigation of some of the very adverse economic impact.The prediction, based on the facts at the time, was of a very extreme scenario. As we have learned, the impact of the pandemic has not been as severe as we initially thought. I think—CostsCOVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1730)[English]Why did CMHC hold that prediction through the fall, though, when we were seeing the rapid increase in prices across Canada?CostsCOVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1730)[English]Customarily we update those outlooks on a yearly basis, so there was a gap between when those predictions were made and when the updates were made.Looking forward, and learning from this pandemic, I recognize that in exceptional circumstances like the pandemic, we should put in place measures to make sure those kinds of predictions are assessed. I take that point.Thank you very much.CostsCOVID-19PandemicRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1730)[English]Thank you.I'm going to return to some of your initial comments.This week I had the opportunity to celebrate a project in my riding with Habitat for Humanity. Habitat for Humanity outlined again that home ownership leads to better socio-economic outcomes for all people in Canada. You mentioned racialized communities as well, and your Asian heritage, and how racialized Canadians in some cases don't have the same access to home ownership as other groups in Canada do.This morning a family friend came over. She is just scared, frankly, for her young daughter, who is graduating university. She's in pharmacy, and she lives in the Vancouver area. She has no hope of owning a home given the current prices. What advice would you give to a young person facing those types of barriers?Home ownershipRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1730)[English]As I mentioned in my remarks, I think that escalating house prices is a serious issue for Canadians. I was very happy recently to see OSFI in the Department of Finance taking some steps so that people would not be taking on excessive debt when house prices are so escalated. I view that as being very serious for the stability of the housing finance system.As I mentioned in my earlier—Home ownershipRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1730)[English]Thank you.I have one other quick point.What do you think is the largest determinant leading to price increases in Canada?CostsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1730)[English]There's a lack of supply.CostsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1730)[English]Thank you.I think that's all I need to ask today, Madam Chair.Again, Madam Bowers, congratulations on your appointment.RomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]Thank you.BradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1735)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vis.For the last round, we will go to the Liberals for five minutes.I have Mr. Vaughan on the list.RomyBowersAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]I have a couple of points to clear up.With regard to the situation in Burnaby, my understanding is that there are five complete applications in and two pending. Those applications came in this year, 2021. Is that not right?Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]That's correct.Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]No applications were made between 2016 and 2020 in terms of accessing the fund. If you don't make an application, we can't fund a project. Is that right?Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]That's correct, Mr. Vaughan.Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]We are currently working with BC Housing to realize the five.Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]That's correct, Madam Chair.The reason we have not been able to approve the applications is that it's a co-investment program, so we're waiting for some decisions to be made by BC Housing. We hope those decisions will be forthcoming, in which case we will be able to make a determination with respect to the Burnaby projects.Application processRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]With regard to the situation in Quebec, one reason for the slowness was that we had to negotiate a special pathway forward for the rapid housing in Quebec in order to directly fund cities. It was the first time we had ever done it in Quebec, but that caused a delay in terms of executing the project, because until the project money and the city money was allocated, we couldn't spend it in Quebec without an agreement with the Quebec government, and to proceed unilaterally would leave Quebec out of the mix. Is that not also true?Cities and townsProvince of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English] That's correct, Madam Chair. There are special circumstances in Quebec that create some complexity in terms of providing federal monies to municipalities. That was a challenge for us that I think we successfully overcame.Cities and townsProvince of QuebecRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]In terms of offshore ownership, in the city of Toronto, for example, 81% of the new housing starts are condominiums, and close to 9% of those condominiums are bought by offshore investors. If 9% of the housing stock were returned to Canadians and offshore dollars were pulled out of that market, would pulling 9% of the purchasers out of the market not also create supply for Canadians?Foreign investments in CanadaRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]We think that addressing foreign ownership can be part of the problem, but as I pointed out earlier, I think we need to focus on creating even more supply for Canadians. We should not be relying solely on things like a foreign ownership tax.Foreign investments in CanadaRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]In the last 10 years, with 161,000 condominiums, most in my riding.... That's why I got cut in half last time. If we pulled 9% of the offshore ownership and the vacant homes out of that mix and returned those offers to Canadians, would not a boost of almost 9% of supply have an impact on prices for Canadians? If they had more housing options, would that not also align with the goal of increasing supply?Foreign investments in CanadaRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]Yes, I would agree with that. I would just like to provide a bit of granularity regarding the foreign ownership. It is an issue when there is foreign ownership and the units remain vacant, but there are situations when there is foreign ownership and it's actually rented out. There is a bit of a distinction, but I take your point, Mr. Vaughan. Thank you.Foreign investments in CanadaRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]There are additional measures around Airbnb, for example. There's a condominium in my riding where 72 units out of 310 are owned by one particular individual who rents them as Airbnbs and doesn't allow them to go into the housing market, either to be rented or to be owned. Additional regulatory measures around limiting that particular form of ownership would also return housing stock to the market and give Canadians choices. Is that not also true? AirbnbCities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]That is true. CMHC would be supportive of assessments of the impacts of Airbnb in certain markets. I think this is a municipal issue, but I think that has been successful in some foreign jurisdictions, so it's something Canada should definitely look into.AirbnbCities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]On the recent infrastructure agreement that was negotiated with the Province of Ontario, my understanding is that the Province of Ontario refused to do things like increase the supply of affordable housing around transit-related projects. However, it's a characteristic of our CMHC programs that we prioritize projects that are being built around existing infrastructure to reduce the burden of providing supply, in terms of making sure we supply where people are trying to live, where people already live and where people have existing infrastructure to tap into. That's one of the ways in which we prioritize and increase supply in highly competitive housing markets.Cities and townsPublic transitRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1735)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'm not familiar with the particular Toronto, Ontario, transaction you're referring to, but CMHC is supportive in all our programs of creating more density in cities. We feel that greater density around transit nodes is very supportive of our housing affordability goals, and it also aligns with our green change agenda.Cities and townsPublic transitRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1735)[English]On the issue of process, supply and clearing red tape, the city of Calgary, for example, now has a 60-day turnaround on social housing application permits. As part of the contribution agreement when cities step up and reduce the processing time, we now calculate and count that as a contribution to the project in real dollars as part of the way in which we factor in approvals. In other words, when the red tape is cut, they actually move to the front of the line quicker. Is that not true? It's also included as a cash contribution towards the realization of the projects.Cities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRomyBowersRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1740)[English]Could we have a brief answer, please, Ms. Bowers?AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1740)[English]CMHC would support any measure that prevents bureaucracy from preventing the creation of affordable housing.Cities and townsRapid Housing InitiativeSocial housingRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1740)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Bowers, for joining us today. We greatly appreciate your time and—RomyBowersAdamVaughanSpadina—Fort York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54434AdamVaughanAdam-VaughanSpadina—Fort YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/VaughanAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam Vaughan: (1740)[English]On a point of order, Madam Chair, just to correct the record, I don't redact statements that are sent out from a Crown corporation to Order Paper questions. Several statements here today left the impression that I was doing the redacting of statements and the redacting of documents. I just want the record to be clear and accurate. To have that idea hanging in the air is a little unfair, both to me and to all other parliamentarians who don't do the redacting.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1740)[English]Thank you, Mr. Vaughan, for your clarification.If there is nothing else, do committee members agree to adjourn? Okay. Thank you very much.Again, Ms. Bowers, thank you very much, and congratulations on your new position.AdamVaughanSpadina—Fort YorkRomyBowersRomyBowersRomy-BowersInterventionMs. Romy Bowers: (1740)[English]Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be here tonight.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): (1740)[English]Thank you.Take care, everyone.RomyBowers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.)): (1550)[English] I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 35 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee. If at any time during the meeting you have any technical difficulties, let me know. We'll want to resolve them, and if necessary, suspend to make sure that everyone is able to fully participate.Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 2, 2021, the committee will proceed with its study of the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.I welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions. We're pleased to have with us today the Honourable Deb Schulte, Minister of Seniors. As well, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Alexis Conrad, senior assistant deputy minister, income security and social development branch and Policy Horizons Canada; Annette Gibbons, associate deputy minister; and Janet Goulding, associate assistant deputy minister, income security and social development branch.For the benefit of our witnesses, I'll make a few additional comments. Interpretation in this video conference is available. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.With that, I think we're ready to go. We'll start with the Minister of Seniors for five minutes, please.Madam Minister, welcome to the committee. You have the floor.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): (1555)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone.[English]It's a pleasure to be back with you all today.I'm sincerely pleased to see the committee's interest in seniors' well-being. As Canada's Minister of Seniors, I spend every day thinking about seniors' needs and how we can better support seniors in their day-to-day lives.Our government is committed to strengthening Canadian seniors' financial security and improving their quality of life.[Translation] Our priority is for seniors to be financially secure.[English] Some of our first actions for seniors as a government include restoring the age of eligibility for old age security to 65 from 67, increasing the guaranteed income supplement for single seniors and doubling the Canada pension plan for future retirees.Budget 2021 strengthened all Canadians' financial security later in life. Older seniors are worried about outliving their life savings. As seniors age, their health-related costs rise. All the while, they are more likely to be unable to work, have disabilities or be widowed. To provide short-term support, we'll provide a one-time payment of $500 in August to OAS pensioners who will be 75 and over as of June 30, 2022, and then, in July of 2022, we'll permanently increase the regular old age security pension payments by 10% for seniors aged 75 and up.This will provide $766 to full OAS pensioners in the first year and be indexed to inflation going forward. The OAS increase will strengthen the retirement income security of Canadians later in life. It's the first permanent increase to the OAS pension since 1973, other than adjustments due to inflation. This builds on our direct financial support to seniors during the pandemic. We provided an extra GST credit and a one-time payment to seniors eligible for OAS, plus extra support for those who were eligible for a guaranteed income supplement. Altogether, a low-income couple received over $1,500 in tax-free support with their extra costs during the pandemic.Canada's vaccine program is accelerating. We're on track to receive 40 million doses by the end of June. Our government will always be there as a partner with provinces and territories to help keep people safe. Working together is what will get us through this crisis. More than eight of every 10 dollars spent to fight COVID-19 and support Canadians continue to come from the federal government. We've procured over a billion pieces of personal protective equipment and tens of millions of rapid tests, which we've been distributing to the provinces and territories. We've funded over 5,000 new horizons for seniors community projects across the country to support seniors during the pandemic. To better protect seniors in long-term care homes, we'll provide $3 billion to the provinces and territories to ensure that standards for long-term care are applied and permanent changes made. We've invested billions in infection prevention and the wages of long-term care workers and others. We will establish new offences and penalties in the Criminal Code related to elder abuse and neglect. Across the country, most seniors want to live in their own homes for as long as possible. To help seniors stay in their homes longer as they age, we're launching the age well at home initiative, which will offer practical support to help low-income and otherwise vulnerable seniors age in their homes. Budget 2021 also announced additional funds to repair, build and support affordable housing; make improvements to the criteria for the disability tax credit; provide an additional four weeks of the Canada recovery caregiving benefit; and allocate new funding for veterans and palliative care.Seniors built the Canada we know and love today. They can be assured that our government will continue to deliver for them.(1600)[Translation] Thank you again for inviting me to appear before you.[English]I look forward to your questions and to seeing your findings and recommendations. Thank you.Age Well At HomeCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19ImmunizationLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Minister.Now we're going to proceed with those questions, beginning with Ms. Falk, please, for six minutes. DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk (Battlefords—Lloydminster, CPC): (1600)[English]Thank you, Chair.Minister, thank you for being here with us today for this important and also timely study. As we know—and you alluded to this—seniors have been particularly hard hit by the pandemic. Those seniors living in long-term care facilities have been at the epicentre of this health crisis. Layered with a sector that's already in crisis, the scarcity of PPE, delays in testing, staffing shortages and inadequate infrastructure all contributed to the tragedy in long-term care.The failure to protect Canada's seniors in long-term care shamefully stands out on the world stage, and too many of our seniors have died of neglect. Too many families have had to say goodbye early. Too many seniors have missed out on countless precious moments. There have been announcements, but Minister, we need to move beyond that in a timely manner. We need leadership and collaboration with all levels of government and senior stakeholders to really move the needle. We need to stabilize the sector but also take meaningful action to address the serious vulnerabilities in the sector. We owe that to our seniors who deserve to live and age with dignity.The reality is that, from health to social isolation to finances, no senior has been fully immune to the challenges that have been brought on by this crisis. For low-income seniors over the age of 75, the one-time OAS payment and subsequent increase announced in the recent budget is helpful, but I have heard from a number of seniors from across this country and I suspect that my colleagues have also been hearing from seniors under the age of 75 who are struggling to make ends meet and feel left aside by your government's decision.Minister, why did you exclude some low-income seniors from your one-time OAS payment and scheduled increase?COVID-19Long-term careOld Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1600)[English] Thank you very much for that very complete question. There were quite a lot of elements that you brought into that discussion.To answer, specifically, why we delivered on our promise to increase old age security for those 75 and above, you need to look at the data that we were looking at and the information that's guiding decision-making. Let's go for a bit of information here.For those seniors below 75, about 34.2% are employed. For seniors 75 and above, it drops to 15.4%. The median income of those who are below 75 is $10,000. The median income for those 75 and above is $720. For disabilities, among seniors below 75, it's 32%. For 75 and above, it's 47%. In terms of those who are severely disabled, it's 27% for 75 and above, and 15% for those below. Women make up 57% of those 75 and above. For those who are widowed, it's 39% of 75 and above, and 23% of those below.I can go on and on with the data and the statistics that show us that our older seniors are more vulnerable and in more need of support. If you look at the information back when the last increase was made to old age security in 1973, and you look at the age that people were expected to live and where it is now, you see it is seven years on. We are seeing seniors living much longer, having more complications as they get older, facing more costs and being really afraid of running out of their savings.COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1600)[English]Minister, at one of our previous meetings we had Dr. Sinha with the National Institute on Ageing, and he questioned your government's use of OAS instead of GIS as a tool to support those low-income seniors.I'm just wondering why your government did not increase GIS instead.COVID-19Guaranteed Income SupplementOld Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1600)[English]Thank you for that question. What you have to do is look back at what our government has been doing over the last five years, and this is just one more step in the measures that we've been taking—COVID-19Guaranteed Income SupplementPandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1600)[English]Right, but I think COVID-19 is changing things. That's what this study, I think, is going to reveal, that COVID is exacerbating these issues. I don't think we can necessarily look at what's happened pre-COVID. We really need to see the effects that COVID is having on our seniors.COVID-19Guaranteed Income SupplementPandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1605)[English]I'm very much looking forward to the outcomes of your study and the recommendations that you're going to make. I think it is important that, while there are some things that the COVID pandemic has highlighted and shone a spotlight on, you need to look at what we've been doing to build the financial security for seniors all along. The first thing we did was to increase the guaranteed income supplement for single seniors, because we saw those as our most vulnerable seniors who needed support. That's why one of the first things we did was to increase that.COVID-19Guaranteed Income SupplementPandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1605)[English]Thank you, Minister. I'd like to get one more question in here if I can.We've seen a major decline in retirement income following the passing of a spouse, and this can certainly add significant financial stress and even uproot a senior's entire retirement plan. Your government promised to increase the CPP survivor benefit in 2019, and then recommitted to it in the throne speech. Minister, I'm just wondering when widows and widowers can expect that increase.Canada Pension PlanCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSurvivor pensionsDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1605)[English]Thank you very much. It's another really good question.What you need to recognize, as was the case with the enhancements to CPP that we did several years ago, is that you need to increase the contributions if you're going to change the outcomes for future pensioners.Canada Pension PlanCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSurvivor pensionsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1605)[English]Is this a promise that's going to be kept throughout the tenure of this government?Canada Pension PlanCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSurvivor pensionsDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1605)[English]Let's just go back. I was trying to set the frame. The frame is that it's for future retirees, and that is set with the discussions of the ministers in the provinces and territories. It's not something that the Canadian government can do on its own. Anything with CPP is done in conjunction with the provinces and territories.Canada Pension PlanCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSurvivor pensionsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1605)[English]Yes, so what's the progress on that?Canada Pension PlanCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSurvivor pensionsDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1605)[English]What happened was, the review that occurred—the triennial review—was during the pandemic, so obviously, the outcomes at that meeting.... It was a difficult time to be increasing the employer contributions and the worker contributions when we were in the middle of a pandemic. There are future discussions to be had, but right now that isn't something that is happening at that triennial review. There will be future reviews, and we'll continue to work on that. This is an important initiative and commitment that we've made, and we're going to be continuing to pursue that in our next triennial review.Canada Pension PlanCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSurvivor pensionsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1605)[English] Thank you so much, Minister.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you, Minister.Thank you, Ms. Falk.Next is Ms. Young, please, for six minutes.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young (London West, Lib.): (1605)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the minister for spending time with us this afternoon to talk about our important study.I want to read something to the minister from a recent pamphlet the United Way Elgin Middlesex distributed in my area. The pamphlet is actually called “The #LocalLove Letter”. It outlines some of the amazing programs the United Way and other agencies have been able to provide to our seniors during this obviously challenging time. Specifically, I'd like to read about program funding through your department's new horizons for seniors program. It reads as follows:Since the start of the pandemic, the Canadian Mental Health Association [Middlesex] has seen a 43 percent increase in calls to The Support Line, many coming from seniors who are feeling scared, vulnerable, lonely....Lori Hassall, the director of crisis and short-term interventions at CMHA, says, “It was an issue even before the pandemic. We were already hearing from a lot of seniors who would call every day just to talk to someone.”A $10,000 grant from United Way, through the Government of Canada's seniors response fund, helped CMHA launch “Friendly Callers”, a new outreach program matching trained volunteers with seniors across Elgin and Middlesex counties.The weekly call was a chance to check in and connect seniors to local services, such as Meals on Wheels, neighbourhood-based resources or the City of London age friendly network, to ensure that they were getting the support they needed.Hassall says: There's so much research now about the impact of loneliness on physical and mental health.... Social connection is the antidote....I want to ask the minister if this story reflects some of what she has heard about how our government funding through this pandemic has helped seniors across the country.COVID-19Mental healthNew Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1605)[English]Thank you very much for that question. Absolutely, these are the amazing inspirational stories that I've been hearing all across the country in every corner, of how people have stepped up to support each other, especially seniors. They are very grateful that the government also stepped up, enhancing the funding. The new horizons for seniors program had already launched in January. When the pandemic hit, we allowed organizations to change their programming very quickly. Whereas before they would have brought people together in a facility, now they had to try to find a way to support them in their own homes and virtually, and that is exactly what happened. That happened because we allowed them to transform their programs and to use the money in another way.We also enhanced the program with another $20 million, in addition to the money this year, to provide 5,000 projects that have been supporting seniors from coast to coast to coast in urban, rural and remote areas. This is something I'm especially proud of. The government did recognize very early where the challenges were. They were listening to the groups and found a way, through enhanced funding and changes in the program, to get those organizations to step up and support seniors across the country.Thank you very much for that. I've heard really inspirational stories. We didn't just do it with new horizons. We did it with funding through the United Way. We did it through emergency community support funding. There was half a billion dollars provided to community support organizations to help vulnerable Canadians across Canada. We should feel very proud of the work that's been done. I'm certainly proud of the organizations that have stepped up to offer those services.COVID-19Mental healthNew Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1610)[English]I know of one local group that does crocheting in London, and all of these seniors, who hadn't even heard of this program, are really being helped, just getting that day-to-day connection.I am hoping that we can make sure other groups know about this program and all the programs that our government is offering. Is there any way we can increase the information so that people will know that the money is there?COVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1610)[English]That's a very good question.We work very hard to get information out to community groups, and you are part of that network of communication through your own community groups. We have a vast network of stakeholder organizations that we work with. We are constantly providing newsletters and are asking them to get them out to seniors and to seniors organizations. It is work that's ongoing, obviously, connecting through to local papers, local radio stations—these are often where seniors are tapped in—making sure that we're not just going to the national media but that we're going to local media, letting them know that these organizations are out there and that they just need to do a little bit of digging. If somebody hasn't already found them, then they need to reach out. We're asking all of you to be involved in that, making sure that the seniors in your community know about the organizations that are serving them and that they get the help they need.COVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1610)[English] The other question I have is about something you mentioned in your opening, the age well at home initiative. Briefly, because I think we have only about 45 seconds, how will this impact older seniors as you see it? Age Well At HomeCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1610)[English]Thank you very much.As seniors get older, they get more frail. They have more challenges meeting the needs of staying in their homes. We hear that they do not want to go into long-term care. They want to stay in their home as long as possible. Therefore, we are creating this program to service that need, which I heard across the country, to make sure that seniors can get the support they need in their homes, especially vulnerable and low-income seniors who can't afford to pay for help and are sometimes forced into long-term care just because they need somebody to help them make meals, do cleaning, do their laundry or help them get groceries. These are things that community groups are involved in, and we're going to be helping them provide more of that support to seniors who want to stay in their homes.Age Well At HomeCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsKateYoungLondon WestKateYoungLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88832KateYoungKate-YoungLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/YoungKate_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kate Young: (1610)[English]Thank you, Minister.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Ms. Young.[Translation] Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.KateYoungLondon WestLouiseChabotThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104678LouiseChabotLouise-ChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChabotLouise_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Louise Chabot (Thérèse-De Blainville, BQ): (1610)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I will give my time to my colleague Ms. Larouche.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[Translation]Ms. Larouche, you have the floor.LouiseChabotThérèse-De BlainvilleAndréanneLaroucheShefford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104973AndréanneLaroucheAndréanne-LaroucheSheffordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LaroucheAndréanne_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Andréanne Larouche (Shefford, BQ): (1610)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I also thank my colleague Ms. Chabot. It is always a pleasure to come back to the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. This committee plays an essential role. Madam Minister, it is very important to have you at the committee. During the last election campaign, both the Liberals and the Bloc Québécois raised seniors' issues. However, our positions were already diverging when it came to numbers. During the last election campaign, you were proposing a 10% increase for those aged 75 and over, while we were proposing an increase of $110 per month for those aged 65 and over.At the time, we already understood that seniors did not want to see discrimination based on age. I asked you that question the first day I arrived in the House of Commons. When I asked you why people should not be given an increase in their old age security pension at age 65, instead of age 75, I remember you coming across the floor and telling me that it was a good question. Then the pandemic hit and seniors had to deal with isolation. There was an increase in the price of groceries and the “COVID-19 tax”. We all saw increases in rent and transportation costs. Everyone experienced an increase in costs. There were announcements for various groups in our society, but seniors were ignored. The Bloc Québécois had to hammer home its message about the importance of increasing the purchasing power of seniors. Finally, a one-time $500 cheque was provided, but only to those receiving the guaranteed income supplement. People who were receiving an old age security pension, but not the guaranteed income supplement, only received a cheque for $300. Again, there was a lot of frustration.After last fall's Speech from the Throne, the 10% increase starting at the age of 75 was finally included in the budget, but it will not be implemented until 2022. A one-time $500 cheque was also offered in August 2021. Madam Minister, seniors are still angry. What you are proposing is clearly not good enough for them. I have heard you talk about aging with dignity. But seniors' groups, including FADOQ in my community, are telling me that, in order to age with dignity, to live and not just survive, the old age security pension for all seniors must be increased as soon as they turn 65. You said yourself that their savings are depleted. That happens from the time they stop working, which is at 65. You talked about the number of people working, but there are also people not working. Do you know what it would cost to give people the 10% increase in the old age security pension at age 65 instead of age 75? Do you have any figures on that?COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1615)[English]I thank you and your colleague very much. Every time you stand up in the House, I get excited that I might be getting a question on seniors and have a chance to share a bit of the work we've been doing. I always look forward to your questions. You set a lot of elements in motion in your question. I want to make sure that we touch on a few of them. Let's go back to early days in the Liberal government. What we have been doing is building up measures that have been enhancing financial security for seniors, starting with reversing the Conservative change. They were “modernizing” the pension system and they increased OAS eligibility to age 67. Right away, we saw there that early pensioners—COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsAndréanneLaroucheSheffordAndréanneLaroucheShefford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104973AndréanneLaroucheAndréanne-LaroucheSheffordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LaroucheAndréanne_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Andréanne Larouche: (1615)[Translation]Madam Minister, I repeat the question—DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[Translation]Ms. Larouche, you took three and a half minutes to ask your question. We must give the minister a chance to answer.AndréanneLaroucheSheffordAndréanneLaroucheShefford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104973AndréanneLaroucheAndréanne-LaroucheSheffordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LaroucheAndréanne_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Andréanne Larouche: (1615)[Translation]Okay.SeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1615)[English] I will get there. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that none of these things are done in isolation. They're done as part of a series of steps we have been taking to enhance the financial security of seniors. That has provided results. We have seen a reduction of 11% in seniors' poverty. These are important things. The facts speak for themselves. We are making changes that are making a difference in the lives of seniors.Right away, the first thing we did was to make sure that those seniors aged 65 to 67 weren't going to be disadvantaged when they couldn't work any longer or were unable to work any longer but wouldn't be getting a pension, which they would be relying on. That was the first step.The second one was looking at very vulnerable seniors—our lowest-income seniors, single seniors—and being able to help them by providing almost $1,000. It was a 10% improvement, an enhancement to the guaranteed income supplement for them. We also enhanced the pension system, the CPP, by providing over a 50% increase for future seniors. Quebec stepped up and mirrored that.These are the steps that we've been taking.Just so you know, for the low-income seniors on the guaranteed income supplement, we changed the eligibility criteria. There are quite a few things that we've been doing to try to help seniors.Now, let's get on to what we did during the pandemic, because you touched on that. It was important to make sure we provided support to those seniors who were dealing with the extra costs of getting services because they were isolating at home. Those seniors were, as you mentioned, provided $300 and an additional $200 if they were on the guaranteed income supplement. That is what we were doing during the pandemic—but it wasn't just about money. Some seniors were telling us that they had money but they needed help.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsAndréanneLaroucheSheffordSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]I'm going to interrupt, Minister.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1620)[English]You're going to interrupt. I've run out of time.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Go ahead and wrap it up. Just finish your thought.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1620)[English]Very quickly, I just want to make sure that it is understood that these are steps that have been building. We haven't been ignoring any seniors. We've been building on a package, as we promised in our platform, to help seniors who are older and are facing more challenges, who have more health care costs and who need help. Their savings are running out because they're living longer.Thank you.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you, Minister.[Translation] Thank you, Ms. Larouche.[English]Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): (1620)[English]Thank you so much, Chair. I'd like to thank the minister for joining us today.You mentioned the $300 and $200. We're now at year two of the pandemic, and your government, again, has only provided a one-time $300 payment for those who receive the OAS and an additional $200 for individuals receiving the GIS. This equates to providing most seniors—the most at risk during this time—with just $17.65 per month in support. I find this concerning. From my perspective, when you match that with the $120 million in support for Imperial Oil and the $70 million for Husky Energy, as two examples, your government has shown a real disregard for seniors.Why do you believe it's appropriate to provide seniors, the most impacted by the pandemic, with such little direct support when you provide millions and millions, in fact, billions—there was $18 billion for TMX pipeline—in support to big oil and big corporations?COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1620)[English] Thank you very much for the question.I think you're comparing with the wage subsidy that we provided to organizations to try to help them keep employees on the payroll. It was very important for them not to lose their jobs and to stay connected to their employers during challenging times. What we've done for seniors is mis-characterized the way you've presented it. The lowest-income seniors, the ones you're talking about, were provided $300 and then an additional $200 if they were on the guaranteed income supplement. These are our lowest-income seniors. Just to be clear, if you add that to the GST top-up that was provided, it would have provided a low-income senior couple more than $1,500 of tax-free money to help them get through. That is not an insignificant amount of assistance, and that was providing double the amount of money that was committed in our platform to help seniors, so it is really significant.As I was saying before in response to the previous question, it's not just about money. We put a billion dollars on the table for community groups to help seniors get meals, to get help to get to medical appointments, to be able to get tablets. They actually provided tablets and low-cost, even no-cost, access to the Internet and services for free so that they could get the supports they needed. We were also able to pay in the early days for volunteers to go out to connect with seniors and help deliver services, supports and food to them. Half a billion dollars of on-the-ground support, plus direct tax-free funding to support seniors was a significant amount of support, which we provided to Canadian seniors.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English]Minister, it's $17.65 in addition per month.In 2021, in the budget implementation bill, your government has proposed providing a one-time payment of $500 in August 2021 to OAS for those 75 years of age and older, and increasing the OAS for individuals 75 and over by 10% as of July 2022. If the government is trying to target seniors most in need—might I add, mostly women who don't benefit from a pension—why have you not specifically aimed OAS increases at low-income seniors?COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1625)[English]Thank you very much for the question.I want to touch back on the math that you've quoted yet again. The math that you keep quoting does not reflect the reality of what the low-income seniors received. When you add the GST top-up and you add the guaranteed income supplement benefit—COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English]Minister, can you please answer my question? You're not answering my question.Thank you.COVID-19PandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1625)[English]No, of course I will. I'll be happy to do so, but I do need to correct—LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English]I've asked you another question, Minister. Thank you.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1625)[English]I know, but I need to correct errors when they're restated.One thing that is important, if you look at the measure for those seniors 75 and above, is that we have more women. Women tend to outlive men. Women tend to have spent time looking after the kids and, therefore, their pensions are not as good. Also, when their partners pass, unfortunately, they get a 60% reduction in that pension and often many didn't have much of their own pension. What we are seeing, then, with our measure of 75 and above, is that for those seniors it is affecting the women more than men and is benefiting the women.COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensWomenLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English]Minister, what research study or model did you use to determine that seniors—particularly, we know, a certain group, certainly in the BIPOC community, have a shorter life expectancy—should only receive the increase at 75 years of age? We know that there are many seniors who are living in poverty between the ages of 65 and 74. Why are they being excluded?COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicPovertySenior citizensVisible minoritiesDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Give a brief answer, if you could, Minister.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1625)[English]Very briefly, you have to take this measure in conjunction with the other measures that we were doing all along to help seniors' financial security. We already took a step to help the lowest-income seniors on the guaranteed income supplement, and then in budget 2019 we also helped further by changing the earnings exemption. There are steps that we've been taking to look after those who are low-income seniors, and steps now that we're taking to support the older seniors who are facing the real issue of running out of savings, because they're living longer than ever before. They are facing more disabilities, more risk of being widowed and are at real financial risk of running out of their savings.Thank you.COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicPovertySenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1625)[English] Thank you, Minister.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gazan. Thank you, Minister.Next is Ms. Dancho, please, for five minutes.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC): (1625)[English]Thank you, Chair. Thank you Minister for being here for our study on the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.I want to change it up a little bit. There's been a lot of talk about finances and spending. I want to speak to you, Minister, today about isolation for seniors and a few of your thoughts in that regard.Just to begin, I wanted to quote one of our expert witnesses in our first meeting a few weeks back. Her name was Ms. Laura Tamblyn Watts of a Canadian national seniors advocacy organization. I'm sure you know her very well.She said, in regard to be asked about the impact of isolation on seniors: It has been a misery for older people across this country, whether they are the individuals left in their own homes and socially isolated from family, friends, neighbours and faith communities, without exercise and daily connections, or at the most extreme level, those in long-term care....She went on to say:Older people are suffering untold amounts of physical deterioration. In long-term and residential care facilities, we've been able to measure it, so we know that their bodies are getting less strong. We also know that cognitive impairment has been significantly affected. People who were more able mentally before are now less able mentally. That can be measured on dementia scales or on other scales for cognitive impairment. We know that mental health has deteriorated enormously. For some people, particularly those in long-term care, where the average length of stay before a person passes away is 18 months, this has been almost the rest of their lives, so it has been devastating.This is the situation facing seniors, particularly those living alone in long-term care over the past 14 months. Your government has been responsible for this country in that time.I have many seniors and many folks in my riding who advocate on behalf of their aging parents and grandparents. What are the concrete steps you have taken to address the incredible impacts of isolation on seniors during the pandemic?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalitySeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1630)[English]Thank you very much for that excellent question.I want to say how much I respect Laura Tamblyn Watts. She's excellent. She's definitely one of the stakeholders that I stay connected with for her opinions and thoughts on things.In terms of long-term care, just so that you know, this is not something I'm not familiar with. My mother-in-law was in long-term care last year and passed away after not very long in long-term care. She was admitted in February, and we lost her in June. She wasn't in very long. Part of the reason was that she lost hope. She couldn't see family. She had been with her husband every day for the bulk of her life. We expected, when she went into long-term care right before the pandemic hit, that her husband, who was just down in the next building, would be able to go and have breakfast, lunch and dinner with her every day and be with her. That was probably the only way she was going to eat, to have that support.We totally appreciate the circumstances that have happened to seniors and the precipitous decline that we've seen in seniors who have been isolated in long-term care. I've been working with my colleagues across the provinces and territories to find ways that we can get caregivers and family members back into long-term care safely. That was one of the reasons, obviously, that it was important to get them vaccinated quickly and to get workers in long-term care vaccinated quickly. Also, we've been providing support through groups that have been providing tablets. We've been providing support to long-term care facilities so that they can get tablets in there.As you know, we've also been working at trying to get more PSWs. What was actually happening was that, for one PSW in my mother-in-law's building, his whole day was spent basically going around with a tablet connecting with families. It's really important. We needed to get the resources. We're working with provinces and territories to get the resources.COVID-19ImmunizationLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensSocial marginalityRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1630)[English]I appreciate the new technology for seniors. I also have very elderly grandparents who haven't been able to master the new technology unfortunately, so that is difficult for us.You mentioned vaccines. I appreciate that we are getting more vaccines now. I believe had your government procured more in January and February, we would have seen perhaps less restrictions on our long-term care.You mentioned that you know Ms. Laura Tamblyn Watts. When I asked her what could be done, she said, “The other piece I would offer is that once people are vaccinated against COVID-19, we need to loosen these restrictions.”Specifically in terms of seniors in long-term care, could you comment on that?COVID-19ImmunizationLong-term careNew technologiesPandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1630)[English]As you know, the jurisdiction for long-term care and for health care is the provinces' and territories' jurisdiction. We have been providing vaccines. We've also been providing rapid test kits and a new technology—COVID-19ImmunizationLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1630)[English] Pardon me. Have you provided any recommendations to your counterparts?COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Answer very quickly, Minister. We're out of time.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1630)[English]We have been providing recommendations, not through us but through the health tables, through NACI and through the science. It's not a political decision. It's something that's being done with the scientists. Immunologists and virologists have been making recommendations. The challenge is trying to keep people safe while also providing supports to get them through these challenging times when they can't meet.As you said, there are those who can't master the technology, which is why sometimes providing extra support to have someone help them.... They come in the room and do it with them, which would be PSWs and those working in the facilities, so they can have some time to connect with family members.However, it's not enough. It's not good enough. We need to do better, and we're constantly looking at ways to help.COVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownRaquelDanchoKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1630)[English]Thank you very much, Minister.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Thank you, Ms. Dancho.Thank you, Minister.Mr. Long, please go ahead for five minutes.RaquelDanchoKildonan—St. PaulWayneLongSaint John—Rothesay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88368WayneLongWayne-LongSaint John—RothesayLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Wayne Long (Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.): (1630)[English]Thank you, Chair.Good afternoon to my colleagues, and good afternoon, Minister Schulte. It's great to have you back at HUMA again.I want to just very quickly take exception to MP Gazan's comments on the $17.65 a month for seniors. That is absolutely not accurate. We gave a $300 payment to seniors receiving the OAS. If you get the GIS, you get an additional $200. Then there's the GST return, which would actually equal almost $100 a month, as a top-up for seniors, not $17.65. Again, I wanted to clarify that.I had a 66-year-old senior in my office this afternoon, Minister. She was exceptionally grateful for what we have done as a government. She's a low-income single senior. She was obviously thrilled with the 10% increase that we gave seniors right off the bat in 2015. She was also thrilled that we were in government, because obviously the Conservatives were going to up the age of OAS to 67 years old. She wouldn't have even been eligible for anything if the Conservative government was still in power, so she was very appreciative.We talked about the benefits we've given. We also talked about the additional 10% for OAS for seniors over 75. Obviously she's not there yet, but she certainly understood the reasons why.I want you to comment on the things we've done and how all of those things added together make big differences for seniors in making ends meet. I'm wondering if you could give me your thoughts and comments on that.COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1635)[English] Thank you very much. You're absolutely right that it is a sequence of steps that our government has been taking to improve the financial security of seniors. As I said before, it has resulted in real results. An 11% reduction is significant.There's always more to be done, but it is true that you have to look at the 10% increase in GIS. You also have to look at the changes that we made to the GIS earnings exemption. There are many seniors doing small-scale self-employment, such as selling things they make or doing very infrequent services, which allows them to make some income. We made changes in budget 2019 that allowed them to keep, without any clawback, up to $5,000. That includes self-employment, which was not the case before. Between $5,000 and $15,000, they will only get a 50% clawback. That's a significant help and allows seniors who are struggling to keep more money in their pockets.There's something else that we haven't talked about and we need to. We've also raised the basic personal amount over four years. That's going to help four million seniors save about $300 if they're single and $600 if they're in a couple. You have to look at all the steps we've been doing that add up to real savings, real help and real financial security for seniors as they're aging.For future seniors, don't forget the 50% increase in pension outcomes in CPP. That's a very significant enhancement we've made to make sure that future seniors have the funding they need for a secure retirement.There is so much more we've been doing that isn't just about money and putting money in their pockets. This is also about making sure we have better supports in the community to help seniors when they need help. That's why I'm really pleased with the age well at home initiative. I've heard a lot of people across the country say, “We don't want to go into long-term care. We're really glad that you're helping in long-term care because those seniors need to be well cared for and treated with respect, but I don't want to go into long-term care. I want to stay in my home. What are you going to do help me stay in my home?”This is why I'm very excited about this age well at home program. It will be addressing the needs of seniors who are getting more frail and who need more support to stay in their homes. I hear a lot about snow shovelling, mowing, cleaning, meal making and laundry. These are things that can be supported by the community, by volunteers. We can help keep seniors happy in their own homes, rather than having them go into long-term care.Age Well At HomeBasic personal amountCanada Pension PlanCOVID-19Guaranteed annual incomePandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsWayneLongSaint John—RothesaySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Long.Thank you, Minister.[Translation]We continue with the Bloc Québécois.Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanAndréanneLaroucheShefford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104973AndréanneLaroucheAndréanne-LaroucheSheffordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LaroucheAndréanne_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Andréanne Larouche: (1640)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will be brief. The cost estimated by the Bloc Québécois to increase the old age security for all seniors aged 65 and over is approximately $4 billion. This is the answer I expected from the minister during the previous round of questions. Let me come back to my question. Madam Minister, we are talking about $4 billion. So what is stopping you from increasing the old age security for those who are 75 years old and under?COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1640)[English]I want to make this clear, and I didn't get to say it last time. Put into perspective, if you look at what was provided to seniors in 2020 and what will be provided in 2021, it will add up to $5.5 billion in direct financial support to seniors. That is over $1.6 billion more than we had committed to in our platform. We are stepping up and providing significant support to seniors, and more than we promised in our platform.COVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensAndréanneLaroucheSheffordAndréanneLaroucheShefford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104973AndréanneLaroucheAndréanne-LaroucheSheffordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LaroucheAndréanne_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Andréanne Larouche: (1640)[Translation]Mr. Chair, let me remind the minister that the assistance given to seniors during the pandemic was a one-time payment, whereas seniors need long-term, recurring assistance. They need an increase in the old age security pension based on the principle that old age security is a universal concept. You yourself have recognized this by changing the age of eligibility for the old age security plan from 67 to 65, because 65 is the age of eligibility for the pension. From what I understand, like everyone else, some seniors will be able to age with dignity from the age of 75, because that is when they will get the 10% increase in the old age security. Can we really say that all seniors will be able to age with dignity? Seniors under the age of 75 will not be able to age with dignity. So I would like you to tell us more about that.Is there a study that really shows that seniors over 75 need more care? I was recently in a caregiver group of about 50 people, 50% of whom are under 75. They hammered home the message that they need help and support, which would mean an increase in their old age security pension, meaning assistance that would go directly into their pockets. The new horizons for seniors program is not enough to help them. They need direct financial assistance. What do you do with those caregivers under 75 who need money?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1640)[English] Thank you very much.Again, I want to let you know that, in 2019 and 2020, the government provided $56.3 billion in old age security benefits to 6.5 million beneficiaries. I'm just trying to put in perspective how much money the federal government provides to seniors though old age security. This is a very massive program. One thing people need to remember—and I heard it from you all—is that when we're looking at progress for seniors, that's just one piece of the programs we are doing. You mentioned some of the others, like new horizons. You mentioned that now we're going to have an age well at home initiative. You have to remember we were also being asked to step up and support national long-term care standards, so we put $3 billion on the table to be able to help provinces and territories enact standards and improve outcomes in those facilities. We also provided rapid stream investments in terms of the buildings, because not only was it infection prevention control that was required to be enhanced, but we needed to enhance some of the buildings to keep people safe, through ventilation and isolation.These are things we're already doing, and we're stepping up to provide that funding—multi-billions of dollars more. You're just looking at one piece, at the OAS, and that's not what the government is doing.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19Old Age SecurityPandemicSenior citizensAndréanneLaroucheSheffordSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Thank you, Minister.Next we have Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1640)[English]Thank you so much, Chair.Minister, I know you spoke a little bit about this, about how budget 2021 proposes providing $90 million over three years, beginning in 2021-22, to Employment and Social Development Canada to launch the age well at home initiative. It would “assist community-based organizations in providing practical support that helps low-income and otherwise vulnerable seniors” including by “matching seniors with volunteers who can help with meal preparations, home maintenance, daily errands, yard work, and transportation.” It sounds a little like WE—the volunteering. Too bad we're not looking at paying people a living wage.Here's my question. Why has the government chosen to rely on a charity of volunteers to support low-income seniors, something that needs real investment, rather than making the investments that are needed to ensure the human rights of older Canadians are met?Age Well At HomeCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensVolunteering and volunteersSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1645)[English]Thank you very much for the question.I want to make sure we're remembering the $6 billion that the federal government is providing to the provinces and territories to help with home care. This is where seniors are getting paid help to support them in their homes and to recover from illness and injury to be able to stay in their homes. That's $6 billion that the government provided. This is a program that's additional support to help in non-health related situations. Organizations are already there. I think you've probably heard of Meals on Wheels. You've heard of all sorts of organizations that are already in the community supporting seniors. This is to expand that opportunity, to provide them with some financial support to organize, to mobilize more volunteers and to be able to give that help. People want to help, and this is a way to help mobilize that support. Age Well At HomeCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsVolunteering and volunteersLeahGazanWinnipeg CentreLeahGazanWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/87121LeahGazanLeah-GazanWinnipeg CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GazanLeah_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Gazan: (1645)[English]Minister, I would disagree. I think ensuring that all seniors can live in dignity is a human rights issue, and certainly impacts to health.... Again, you're not answering my question. Why are you spending $90 million on a volunteer program rather than paying people a living wage to ensure that seniors can get the care they need to live with human rights and dignity in this country?Age Well At HomeCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensVolunteering and volunteersDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]We'll need a short answer, please, Minister. We're out of time.LeahGazanWinnipeg CentreDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1645)[English]Okay.We are definitely supporting seniors in a variety of different ways. We are basically helping to provide support to get more PSWs into the field, to be able to help in not only long-term care but in-home care. We are doing a variety of a different measures. We're also putting more money into the national housing strategy to create more livable spaces for seniors—affordable livable spaces for seniors. You have housing and wage subsidies. You have programs. You have direct financial support.The government is there for seniors. We will always be there for seniors, and we're going to continue to be there. I'm looking forward to your recommendations so that we can see what else we need to do. Age Well At HomeCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensVolunteering and volunteersSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English] Thank you, Minister.Mr. Tochor, go ahead, please, for five minutes.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor (Saskatoon—University, CPC): (1645)[English]Thank you very much.Minister, the seniors I have been meeting with tell a different story. You brag about the increase of over $1,000 for last year, over the different buckets of money that you made one-time payments for, but the seniors I've been talking to read reports in the news about 40,000 15-year-olds getting approved for CERB at $2,000 a month—not yearly but monthly. They hear about over 92,000 16-year-olds who have been approved and about 17-year-olds living at home. There were 184,000 kids getting CERB last year. Do you think that's fair?Canada Emergency Response BenefitCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensYoung peopleSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1645)[English]One of the things our government will not do is pit one group against another. We made sure not only that CERB was there for youth who could not work and who were potentially unable to get the income they needed for their studies and to continue on with their education but also that seniors were able to access CERB. Even if they had their pensions, their CPP and OAS, they could still qualify for CERB as long as they had a loss of employment income because of the COVID pandemic or because they had to stay home because they were isolating because of risk factors.Canada Emergency Response BenefitCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensYoung peopleCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1645)[English]Minister, with respect, you should be ashamed of the decisions in this budget. You're saying we're pitting one against the other, but these are the decisions the Liberals made. We've had hundreds of thousands of kids living at home getting approved for emergency relief, while seniors have gotten a pittance, an increase of just over $1,000 for the year over all the programs.I shudder to think of what you're hearing from the seniors you've been talking to. What I'm hearing is that you are pitting one segment against the other.Canada Emergency Response BenefitCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensYoung peopleDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1645)[English]I think it's really unfortunate that the seniors you're talking to have had their information twisted so that they are basically saying the youth who have lost their jobs don't deserve to be supported. Listen, I'm the minister for seniors and not the minister for youth, but I can tell you from the youth that I know in my community that it has been very tough on them. They would normally be able to have a summer job at a local restaurant or a carnival. Normally, they would be working in the service industry, which has really shut down, and they don't have the ability now to earn the funds they need to be able to carry on with their education. There may be some who accessed it who shouldn't have, and that will be determined in time through the CRA.Right now, we were there to support youth. We were there to support seniors, Canadians and businesses, and I'm proud that we were there to support them. That's helped us get through—Canada Emergency Response BenefitCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensYoung peopleCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1650)[English]If you're wondering where they're getting their information from. I'll just read this quickly. It's from the National Post, a pretty reputable national news outlet. It says:The documents show that 40,630 15-years-olds were approved for the benefit. The government paid out $81.2 million for that group. There were 92,784 16-year-olds approved, receiving nearly $186 million, and 184,576 17-year-olds received $369 million. That's where they're getting their news from or information, as you call it.It's concerning. It's concerning that we would not help seniors out during this crisis at the same level as we were helping out students living at home.I'm going to switch gears just briefly on the dollar amounts you talked about, the $5 billion here and the $10 billion there that the Liberals like to gloat about. It's all printed money. It's all money that is printed, and when regimes across the world have tried to print money to get out of their fiscal crisis, it has ended poorly for society.I am wondering if you think seniors are worried about inflation right now. Canada Emergency Response BenefitCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensYoung peopleDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1650)[English] I think everybody's worried about inflation, but more than anything people are worried about getting through the pandemic, and they need supports to do that.I want to go back. When I was young, I needed a job to help pay for my family. We were not well off, and we all ended up working. I was working at 15. There are a lot of young people in this country who are supporting themselves, their families and their education. You might say 15 is a little early to be supporting your education, but you need a lot of funds to live, to pay for your food and clothes. These are things that families sometimes need to rely on their younger teenagers to help with.Cory, it's really unfortunate that you're making a judgment call that all youth are somehow in a position to have excess. That is not true and I think it's unfortunate. Maybe it's because of a different upbringing, but I can tell you that I really appreciated my job. If I had lost it when I was 15, it would have made things very difficult for me. I know that is the story of young people across the country.Let's go back to seniors, because we are not doing one versus the other. Seniors were able to access the same supports as youth and other Canadians. If they worked, lost their income and were making over $5,000 a year, they would have been able to access benefits as well.It is important that we are fair and are treating everybody well. Canada Emergency Response BenefitCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensYoung peopleCoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversitySeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you, Minister.Thank you, Mr. Tochor.[Translation] The last committee member to ask questions is Mr. Lauzon. Mr. Lauzon, you have the floor for five minutes.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon (Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, Lib.): (1650)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Madam Minister, thank you for joining us for this important study on seniors. We know that you have always been committed to seniors. I think you'll agree with me that one of your important roles since the beginning of your mandate has been to reassure seniors, to listen to them and to work with them. My riding has a number of private seniors' clubs. There is also the Réseau FADOQ, with whom we have had many discussions and with whom we work hand in hand. I know that you have always made your presence felt, unlike the Bloc Québécois, which is spreading misinformation, scaring seniors and causing them anxiety. You have always been there to support seniors, Madam Minister. You provided some important statistics earlier, saying that 57% of women aged 65 to 75 were more vulnerable. You also said that 39% of widows have lower incomes. Health care spending increases by 67% at age 80, and home care increases sevenfold at age 85. The evidence-based numbers that you have shared with us are very significant. Would you agree that the evidence shows that our election promise, delivered in budget 2021, was more likely to be focused on the most vulnerable?Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1655)[English]The answer is yes. There is always more to do, but we should feel proud of the work we've done so far. Obviously I look forward to the report and the recommendations that you're going to bring forward. I also very much look forward to my conversations with stakeholders such as FADOQ and others, so that they are able to share their perspectives as we move forward and continue to work on the issues that are of importance to seniors, while specifically making sure that we address their financial security and their needs.Care for the elderlyCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1655)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Minister. Throughout the questions today, you have mentioned several choices the government has made that have helped seniors, including direct and indirect assistance through associations. You have a program in place called new horizons for seniors, and you have made a number of changes. In addition, you have taken the time to consult with all parties to improve it. Can you tell us a little about the changes to the new horizons for seniors program and the process you used to arrive at those changes?COVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1655)[English] I want to thank all the MPs from all parties who took part last year, very early on, in giving us input on how we could improve the new horizons for seniors program. We were able to incorporate it so that we have better distribution across the country, making sure that those in rural and remote communities have an opportunity to get projects. I want to thank all members of Parliament for all of the work they brought forward.The recommendations were incorporated, and they have resulted in over 5,000 projects across Canada that have addressed those in rural and remote areas, those who are more vulnerable and those in different cultural groups. We have a much better distribution of projects across the country to help support seniors, and I'm very proud of the work that all MPs did to get those quality projects in the applications. We ended up with really excellent results across Canada.COVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1655)[Translation]Thank you. You have addressed a number of issues today, but we haven't talked much about elder abuse. We have invested $50 million in initiatives to combat elder abuse. We need to ensure that all seniors are safe. Can you tell us how the Liberal government is honouring its commitment on this issue?COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensDebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1655)[English]Elder abuse in all its forms is totally unacceptable, and it is an issue that our government takes very seriously. We are working on initiatives to combat elder abuse, including strengthening the law, creating a national definition and improving data collection. This builds on the work that was already under way by the national seniors council, which examined the issue through the new horizons for seniors program. One of its elements is addressing elder abuse and raising awareness. Through budget 2021, our government will provide $50 million over five years to promote safe relationships and prevent family violence, including elder abuse.Our government will continue working on this issue and strengthening Canada's approach to elder abuse. It's very important.COVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Minister.[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Lauzon.[English]Minister, that completes a little over an hour. We are very grateful to you for being with us, for bearing with us given our late start and for the very comprehensive and patient way that you responded to our questions. We appreciate your openness to receiving and being guided by the recommendations that will come from this report. As I love to say, you are welcome to stay, but you're free to go.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1700)[English]Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Colleagues, we're going to suspend for a couple of minutes just to make sure that we're all set for the second panel.DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanDebSchulteHon.King—Vaughan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88799DebSchulteHon.Deb-SchulteKing—VaughanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SchulteDeb_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Deb Schulte: (1700)[English]Thank you very much, Chair. It was a real pleasure. I always appreciate the opportunity to come and share a bit of knowledge and hear from you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Minister.We are suspended.(1700)(1700)DebSchulteHon.King—VaughanSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]I call the meeting back to order.Today the committee is meeting for its study of the impact of COVID-19 on seniors.I'd like to welcome our witnesses, who will continue our discussion. We have Alexis Conrad, senior assistant deputy minister; Annette Gibbons, associate deputy minister; and Janet Goulding, associate assistant deputy minister.Unless you have an opening statement ready, I think we're going to go right into questions.SeanCaseyCharlottetownAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons (Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development): (1700)[English] We do not, Mr. Chair.Department of Employment and Social DevelopmentPandemicSenior citizensSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Excellent. We're going to start with Ms. Falk, for the Conservatives, for six minutes.Ms. Falk, you have the floor.AnnetteGibbonsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1700)[English]Thank you, Chair.I'd like to thank all of you for being available today to come to our committee as we study the impact that COVID-19 has had on seniors and is having on seniors, and the reach that federal government programs have had.The recent budget proposed to provide $400 million to create a temporary community services recovery fund for charities and non-profits. Will charities and non-profits serving seniors be eligible and/or prioritized in the program?Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensTemporary Community Services Recovery FundSeanCaseyCharlottetownAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1700)[English]They will certainly be eligible. I'll turn to Janet to provide a bit more on this.Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensTemporary Community Services Recovery FundRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterJanetGouldingJanetGouldingJanet-GouldingInterventionMs. Janet Goulding (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development): (1700)[English] The community services recovery fund will definitely be available to senior-serving organizations that are either charities or non-profits. The program is still under design, and we're looking at how to make sure that dollars are made available to the most vulnerable Canadians to support our charitable and non-profit sector as it moves, we hope, to the post-pandemic period very shortly.Community organizationsCOVID-19Department of Employment and Social DevelopmentPandemicSenior citizensTemporary Community Services Recovery FundAnnetteGibbonsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1700)[English] Thank you.Have there been conversations about what activities would be eligible for funding?Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensTemporary Community Services Recovery FundJanetGouldingJanetGouldingJanetGouldingJanet-GouldingInterventionMs. Janet Goulding: (1700)[English]The new recovery fund is focused on supporting charities and non-profits that are looking to modernize, adapt or move forward with new programming or new processes that will help them move forward in the post-recovery period. We do anticipate having those details available in the coming months.Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensTemporary Community Services Recovery FundRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1700)[English]Is there a timeline for when the intake of applications will begin?Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensTemporary Community Services Recovery FundJanetGouldingJanetGouldingJanetGouldingJanet-GouldingInterventionMs. Janet Goulding: (1700)[English]We intend to run the program using community-based intermediaries who have national reach. There will be a public call for proposals to identify the organizations that will administer the program. All of those details are still to come.Community organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensTemporary Community Services Recovery FundRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English]Okay. Thank you.The staffing crisis in long-term care has exacerbated the impact of COVID-19 on the health of our seniors, and there is a shortage of health care and care workers across the country. In the fall economic statement, funds were allocated to train 4,000 support workers across the country. This committee received a written response to my previous inquiries on the topic stating that recruitment for this training started in April, with placements beginning as early as June 2021. Given those dates, the program should be under way. Can you please provide the committee with an update on the enrolment of this program?Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensJanetGouldingAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1705)[English]Go ahead, Alexis.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterAlexisConradAlexisConradAlexis-ConradInterventionMr. Alexis Conrad (Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch and Policy Horizons Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development): (1705)[English] Thanks.Mr. Chair, there's actually not much more I can say other than what was provided to the committee before. The program is moving ahead. I think there have been announcements around funding, targets and working with Colleges and Institutes Canada to train thousands of personal support workers. We're still in that period, obviously, which the committee received information about, between April and June. We would be happy to follow up with information to the committee when something does change.Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Department of Employment and Social DevelopmentLong-term carePandemicSenior citizensAnnetteGibbonsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English]Perfect.I have a few other questions as well, but if I can't get that information, I would like the questions on the record so that when the information becomes available the department could provide it if possible.Could you provide a breakdown of enrolment across the country and what colleges are running this federal program? Will the department be tracking the completion rate of this program or how will the success of the program be measured? How does this program measure up against other investments in training, like the Ontario accelerated PSW program, and are these programs complementary?Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensAlexisConradAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1705)[English]We'll come back to you, then, Ms. Falk.Adult education and trainingCaregivers and health care professionalsCOVID-19Long-term carePandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English]Perfect. I appreciate that.I want to also touch on the age well initiative. I know that the minister did mention it, and it was brought up in our previous hour. We know that budget 2021 announced $90 million over three years to launch the age well at home initiative, which would be helping seniors to age in place. We know that's very important, especially for seniors attaining and having autonomy. I'm just wondering how this program is going to achieve that.Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1705)[English]We're still developing the detailed program parameters for it, but the goal is to fund community serving organizations at a regional level and a national level to try to develop and put in place best practices to support seniors in the community. We have the new horizons program platform, which we will sort of use as a base for the delivery of this new program. We have, as you know, a whole infrastructure built around it that involves us in a relationship with various support organizations across the country that are serving seniors. We'll certainly be building on that foundation—Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19New Horizons for Seniors ProgramPandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English]Is there a goal for a deadline?Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1705)[English]A deadline for a call for proposals, do you mean?Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English]Yes. I guess it's still under way and being developed, but it was announced in the budget.Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1705)[English]We probably will have a couple of calls for proposals under the program, and we really do want to launch in this fiscal year. We're working very hard to reach that objective.Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English]Who is going to be targeted for eligible funding? Would it be people or seniors specifically, individually, or is it going to be the organizations?Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1705)[English]It would be organizations that would apply.Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1705)[English] What types of activities is the department exploring that would be eligible for funding?Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1705)[English] As the minister noted, organizations that are providing various supports to seniors in the community would be provided funding to organize those sorts of supports.It came up with the minister that the volunteer model is certainly a model that's out in the community a lot already, at the local level, so building and strengthening some of those activities is certainly something we have in mind. We're also looking at trying to support the development and rollout of best practices for things that have been proven to work in order to try to support organizations perhaps in another part of the country to be able to provide a similar service. We're really trying to not reinvent the wheel but to look at some of the great success stories that are out there and trying to support organizations in different areas and different regions to build on those kinds of models.Age Well At HomeCommunity organizationsCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensRosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you, Ms. Falk.AnnetteGibbonsRosemarieFalkBattlefords—Lloydminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98749RosemarieFalkRosemarie-FalkBattlefords—LloydminsterConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkRosemarie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Rosemarie Falk: (1710)[English]That's wonderful. Thank you.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71270SeanCaseySean-CaseyCharlottetownLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CaseySean_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you, Ms. Gibbons.Next, Mr. Dong, go ahead, please, for six minutes.RosemarieFalkBattlefords—LloydminsterHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.): (1710)[English]Thank you very much, Chair.I want to thank all the witnesses and officials for coming to the committee to give us some answers.I want to follow up on what MP Falk was asking. We know that the majority of our seniors wish to age at home. We know that the pandemic has posed a greater challenge.Today, Angus Reid had a survey out. I noticed that 45% of the respondents said it would be impossible to provide sufficient support for seniors to age at home without considerable help. Looking forward, budget 2021 talked about the $90 million over three years to launch the age well at home initiative. To follow up on the previous question, why did the ministry choose or consider the avenue of volunteer service? Do we know if there will be enough volunteers to meet the needs of seniors aging at home?Age Well At HomeCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsVolunteering and volunteersSeanCaseyCharlottetownAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1710)[English]As the minister noted, there's already a great record of volunteer participation in all kinds of community-serving organizations, and certainly for seniors there are a number of very successful ones out there, so we would be able to build on that. We know seniors themselves are very active volunteers in serving each other, so certainly that's one type of organization or one model I think we want to provide more support to.There are a great many needs out there and a lot of different ways of supporting the community. What we're trying to do is to give a little bit of a boost to what's already happening out in the not-for-profit sector and, as I said before, where there have been success stories, we are providing supports and providing the profile and the capacity for organizations that right now don't have the resources to be able to build up a function or an activity to serve the community. We are looking at giving them the boost to do that and at giving them models through comparing with what's already happening in other places.Lots of very interesting things are happening in communities now. We are hearing that they just need a little bit more support to be able to bolster that and to manage projects to build up capacity even further.Age Well At HomeCOVID-19PandemicSenior citizensSocial benefitsVolunteering and volunteersHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1710)[English]I can support that. In my riding of Don Valley North, I know personally quite a few seniors who are helping seniors through Meals on Wheels. They are actively recruiting volunteers to cater to the diverse community we have in the riding. I hope we can enact this very quickly to provide those key supports.I can't help but ask what checks will be in place to mitigate the risk of senior abuse, considering that if we expand this program we will be recruiting or encouraging more volunteers to come and serve. Are there any thoughts on that?Age Well At HomeCOVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensVolunteering and volunteersAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnetteGibbonsAnnette-GibbonsInterventionMs. Annette Gibbons: (1710)[English] Are you referring to the possibility that people involved with the administration in community organizations may be doing—Age Well At HomeCOVID-19Elder abusePandemicSenior citizensVolunteering and volunteersHanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley NorthINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE