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Add a filter on Committee Evidence - FINA-60
Committee Evidence - FINA-60
2021-07-20
Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:00
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:02
...More
Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions will be for Mr. McGowan.
Trevor, you've been at parliamentary committees many times before, as the chair has suggested, so you know the drill. When private members' legislation comes before a committee, we generally have a robust discussion about the legislation. The government, through its MPs, has the ability to bring forward amendments that would fix loopholes or deficiencies in those bills.
Mr. McGowan, you were present at committee as a witness, as Bill C-208 was being discussed. Is that correct?
Merci, monsieur le président. Mes questions s'adresseront à M. McGowan.
Monsieur McGowan, vous avez déjà participé à des comités parlementaires, et ce, à maintes reprises, comme l'a suggéré le président, alors vous connaissez la marche à suivre. Lorsqu'un comité est saisi d'un projet de loi d'initiative parlementaire, nous avons généralement une discussion approfondie sur le projet de loi. Le gouvernement, par l'intermédiaire de ses députés, a la possibilité de proposer des amendements qui permettraient de combler les lacunes ou les déficiences de ces projets de loi.
Monsieur McGowan, vous avez témoigné devant le Comité lors du débat sur le projet de loi C‑208, n'est‑ce pas?
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Trevor McGowan - 14:03
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:03
...More
All right. Your recent press release, the finance department's press release dated July 19, highlights four specific loopholes that it feels should be fixed in Bill C-208. My question to you is, when you appeared before committee as a witness to discuss this bill, did you or any of your officials recommend amendments that would have addressed the shortcomings Bill C-208 had, and specific wording for those amendments?
Très bien. Votre récent communiqué de presse, le communiqué de presse du ministère des Finances en date du 19 juillet, souligne quatre failles précises qui, selon lui, devraient être corrigées dans le projet de loi C‑208. Je vous demande: lorsque vous avez comparu et témoigné devant le Comité au sujet de ce projet de loi, est‑ce que vous ou l'un de vos fonctionnaires avez recommandé des amendements qui auraient permis de combler les lacunes du projet de loi C‑208, ainsi qu'un libellé précis de ces amendements?
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Trevor McGowan - 14:03
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:04
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What was the purpose of your appearing before committee if there was no process by which Finance could inform the committee and provide it with the assistance and the wording for amendments that could have fixed the so-called loopholes that you've identified after the fact?
Quel était le but de votre comparution devant le Comité s'il n'y avait pas de processus grâce auquel le ministère des Finances aurait informé le Comité et lui aurait proposé des amendements qui auraient pu corriger les soi-disant échappatoires que vous avez repérées par la suite?
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Trevor McGowan - 14:04
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:05
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Okay, so after royal assent, somebody in government, maybe in Finance or maybe in the Prime Minister's Office, made the decision to announce that Bill C-208 would not be applied. In other words, it wouldn't be implemented right away. Is that correct?
Bon, donc après la sanction royale, quelqu'un au gouvernement, au ministère des Finances ou au bureau du premier ministre, peut-être, a décidé d'annoncer que le projet de loi C‑208 ne serait pas appliqué. En d'autres termes, il ne serait pas mis en oeuvre tout de suite. Est‑ce bien cela?
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Trevor McGowan - 14:05
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:06
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Well, let me say this: I'm so glad that you're now acknowledging that Bill C-208 became the law on June 29. It's something that was not reflected in your June 30 press release.
I want to know who it was in your department, or who it was in government, who made the decision not to respect Bill C-208 and issue the press release that led to the confusion, and quite frankly the bewilderment, of the small business community in Canada.
Permettez-moi de vous dire que je suis très heureux de vous entendre reconnaître que le projet de loi C‑208 est devenu loi le 29 juin. C'est quelque chose dont votre communiqué de presse du 30 juin de faisait pas état.
Je veux savoir qui, au sein de votre ministère ou du gouvernement, a pris la décision de ne pas respecter le projet de loi C‑208 et de publier le communiqué de presse qui a causé confusion et, franchement, perplexité dans le milieu des petites entreprises au Canada.
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Trevor McGowan - 14:06
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:08
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Trevor, really, that is a re-characterization of what has happened. The June 30 press release made it very clear that the government was going to withhold implementation of Bill C-208 until it had a chance to amend it. In that, it was moving in a way that effectively defied the will of Parliament. My question, which you didn't answer, is who in Finance or who in government actually made the decision that was then reflected in the press release that was issued on June 30?
Monsieur McGowan, en réalité, c'est une reformulation de ce qui s'est passé. Le communiqué de presse du 30 juin indiquait très clairement que le gouvernement allait suspendre la mise en oeuvre du projet de loi C‑208 jusqu'à ce qu'il ait la possibilité de le modifier. En cela, il a agi d'une manière qui défie effectivement la volonté du Parlement. Ma question, à laquelle vous n'avez pas répondu, est la suivante: qui, au ministère des Finances ou au gouvernement, a pris la décision qui a été annoncée dans le communiqué publié le 30 juin?
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Trevor McGowan - 14:08
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:08
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Answer the question.
Répondez à la question.
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Trevor McGowan - 14:08
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:09
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I'm not asking about process. I'm asking who made the final decision—
Je ne pose pas de question sur le processus. Je demande qui a pris la décision finale...
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:09
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:09
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With respect, Mr. Chair, you know what he's doing. He's not answering the question. I asked who, and he will not provide me with that answer.
All we want to know is this: Who's the decision-maker who made the decision to issue the press release that reflected the government's decision not to respect the will of Parliament?
Avec tout le respect que je vous dois, monsieur le président, vous savez ce qu'il fait. Il ne répond pas à la question. J'ai demandé qui, et il ne veut pas me répondre.
Tout ce que nous voulons savoir, c'est: qui est la personne qui a pris la décision de publier le communiqué de presse mentionnant la décision du gouvernement de ne pas respecter la volonté du Parlement?
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:09
Trevor McGowan - 14:09
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:10
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That's right. Let me stop you right there.
C'est exact. Je vous arrête tout de suite.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:10
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:10
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Who in the elected government made the decision to issue this release, or to instruct your department to issue this release, which has led to all of this confusion?
Merci, monsieur le président.
Qui, au sein du gouvernement élu, a pris la décision de publier ce communiqué, ou de donner l'ordre à votre ministère de publier ce communiqué, ce qui a entraîné toute cette confusion?
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:10
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:10
...More
No, he hasn't answered the question.
Who in the elected government made that decision?
Non, il n'a pas répondu à la question.
Qui, au sein du gouvernement élu, a pris cette décision?
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:10
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:11
...More
You guys are awful.
Vous êtes affreux.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:11
Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:12
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:12
...More
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, my comment that “you guys are awful” was not addressed to our civil servants, and it certainly wasn't addressed to Mr. McGowan. It was addressed to my Liberal friends across the table from us, who were heckling and guffawing about our asking very significant questions of Mr. McGowan related to Bill C-208.
J'invoque le Règlement, monsieur le président, mon commentaire selon lequel « vous êtes affreux » ne s'adressait pas à nos fonctionnaires, et certainement pas à M. McGowan. Il s'adressait à mes amis libéraux d'en face, qui chahutaient et se moquaient du fait que nous posions des questions très importantes à M. McGowan au sujet du projet de loi C‑208.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:12
Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:44
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 14:45
...More
Did cabinet make the decision?
Est‑ce que le Cabinet a pris la décision?
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 14:45
Hon. Wayne Easter - 15:30
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 15:30
...More
Mr. McGowan, I have a couple more questions for you. Let me say again that I have great respect for those of you in your position who serve the public. I've been in that seat, you know. I've been asked questions the way you have. It's not a pleasant feeling at times, especially when the great inquisitor is Mr. Easter, who used to do that to me.
Voices: Oh, oh!
Hon. Ed Fast: That said, you have said that it's the intention of the elected government that any intergenerational transfers that take place between June 30 and November 1 will not be subject to any further amendments that the elected government might bring forward on November 1 with respect to such transfers. Ms. Aitken has, however, confirmed that the government can in fact make such legislation—the November 1 legislation that is signalled in the press release of July 19—retroactive.
I'm assuming that you yourself cannot bind the government to compel it to follow through on its intention not to apply any further amendments to such intergenerational transfers. Am I correct?
Monsieur McGowan, j'ai quelques questions pour vous. Permettez-moi d'exprimer à nouveau mon profond respect pour tous ceux qui comme vous travaillent au service de la population. J'ai déjà été à votre place. J'ai aussi eu à répondre à des questions. C'est parfois inconfortable, surtout si le Grand Inquisiteur est M. Easter, et je parle d'expérience.
Des voix: Oh, oh!
L'hon. Ed Fast: Bon. Selon ce que vous avez affirmé, l'intention du gouvernement élu est de ne pas appliquer les modifications qui pourraient être instaurées le 1
er
novembre aux transferts intergénérationnels effectués entre le 30 juin et le 1
er
novembre. Mme Aitken a toutefois confirmé que le gouvernement peut appliquer ce genre de législation — je fais référence à la législation du 1
er
novembre évoquée dans le communiqué de presse du 19 juillet — de manière rétroactive.
Je ne pense pas que vous puissiez obliger le gouvernement à réaliser son intention de ne pas appliquer d'autres modifications liées aux transferts intergénérationnels, n'est‑ce pas?
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Trevor McGowan - 15:31
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 15:32
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Let me dig a little deeper. You mentioned that surplus stripping is a significant concern and that this needs to be addressed in the amendments that the government intends to bring forward. If between now and November 1 such tax avoidance activity does in fact take place, how will the government effectively address that avoidance?
Permettez-moi d'aller un peu plus loin. Vous avez mentionné que les dépouillements de surplus sont particulièrement préoccupants et que c'est un des problèmes qui seront visés par les modifications que le gouvernement entend présenter. Si, d'ici au 1
er
novembre, il n'y a pas d'évitement fiscal, comment le gouvernement pourra‑t‑il s'attaquer concrètement au problème?
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Trevor McGowan - 15:32
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 15:33
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So there's a gap now between June 29 and November 1, in which the government does not intend to make any retroactive changes, and in which there may be some gaps or loopholes that you've identified that may be difficult to address. Is that correct?
Il y a donc un délai entre le 29 juin et le 1
er
novembre, durant lequel le gouvernement n'a pas l'intention d'appliquer les modifications de manière rétroactive, et il se peut qu'il y ait des lacunes ou des échappatoires, que vous avez vous-même pointées, auxquelles il pourrait être difficile de remédier, n'est‑ce pas?
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Trevor McGowan - 15:34
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 15:34
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All right. This is my last question. The most recent press release is the July 19 one, in which the elected government did an about-face on Bill C-208. Certainly we see it as an about-face. It still suggests that some intergenerational small business transfers aren't genuine. In fact, you use the term “genuine” in that press release. I'm looking at it here.
It still suggests that small businesses are engaged in tax avoidance, in surplus stripping, in artificial tax planning and in not paying their fair share. Do you understand why many small businesses and the families who run them still feel that you and your finance department colleagues, and the government, and the Prime Minister still believe they're tax cheats? It's baked into your press release. Small businesses reading that would take from it that this government really doesn't trust small businesses and still believes they're tax cheats.
Do you understand why small businesses are concerned?
D'accord. C'est ma dernière question. Le communiqué de presse le plus récent est celui du 19 juillet. Le gouvernement élu y fait une volte-face concernant le projet de loi C-208. Du moins, nous considérons que c'est une volte-face. Il continue de sous-entendre que certains transferts intergénérationnels de petites entreprises ne sont pas véritables. C'est vous qui utilisez le terme « véritables » dans le communiqué de presse. Je l'ai sous les yeux.
Le gouvernement continue de sous-entendre que des petites entreprises ont des pratiques d'évitement fiscal, de dépouillement de surplus, de planification fiscale artificielle, bref, qu'elles ne paient pas leur juste part d'impôt. Comprenez-vous pourquoi tant de petites entreprises et de familles qui les exploitent ont encore l'impression que vous et vos collègues du ministère des Finances, et que le gouvernement et le premier ministre les prenez systématiquement pour des fraudeurs? C'est tatoué dans votre communiqué de presse. En le lisant, les petites entreprises en déduiront forcément que le gouvernement ne leur fait pas confiance et qu'il continue de considérer qu'elles fraudent l'impôt.
Comprenez-vous pourquoi les petites entreprises sont préoccupées?
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Trevor McGowan - 15:35
Add a filter on Committee Evidence - FINA-59
Committee Evidence - FINA-59
2021-07-20
Hon. Wayne Easter - 10:55
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:55
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to echo Mr. Ste-Marie's comments. We're addressing something very serious here. I noticed our Liberal friends were making light of this issue, but this is no laughing matter, Ms. O'Connell. This is about defiance of the will of Parliament.
Mr. Dufresne, I'm not going to ask you to make the assumption I'm making, which is that defiance of the will of Parliament by Mr. Trudeau will occur again under this government. This was not an oversight. My real fear is that if he's re-elected he will move again to defy the will of Parliament, not only on this, but on other legislation.
My question to you is, does the government and do finance department officials have any right to delay or refuse to implement legislation that is properly passed by Parliament?
Je vous remercie, monsieur le président.
Je veux revenir sur ce qu'a dit M. Ste-Marie. Nous nous penchons ici sur quelque chose de très grave. J'ai remarqué que nos amis libéraux prennent cette question à la légère, mais il n'y a pas de quoi rire, madame O'Connell. Il s'agit de mépris de la volonté du Parlement.
Monsieur Dufresne, je ne vais pas vous demander de faire la même hypothèse que moi, c'est‑à‑dire que M. Trudeau fera encore fi de la volonté du Parlement sous ce gouvernement. Il ne s'agissait pas d'une erreur. Ma vraie crainte est que, s'il est réélu, il choisira encore d'aller à l'encontre de la volonté du Parlement, non seulement en ce qui concerne ce projet loi, mais au sujet d'autres projets de loi.
Voici ma question: le gouvernement et les responsables du ministère des Finances ont-ils le droit de retarder ou de refuser de mettre en œuvre des mesures législatives qui ont été adoptées en bonne et due forme par le Parlement?
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Philippe Dufresne - 10:56
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:56
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Did any finance officials or the Prime Minister's Office seek your legal opinion before announcing that they did not intend to implement C-208 before amending it?
Des représentants du ministère des Finances ou du Cabinet du premier ministre vous ont-ils demandé votre avis juridique avant d'annoncer qu'ils ne comptaient pas mettre en œuvre le projet de loi C‑208 avant de l'avoir modifié?
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Philippe Dufresne - 10:56
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:56
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Are you at all aware of whether they sought legal counsel before proceeding that way?
Savez-vous s'ils ont demandé un avis juridique avant d'agir ainsi?
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Philippe Dufresne - 10:57
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:57
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All right.
Now, did I hear you say that the Prime Minister could make his proposed November 1 amendments retroactive?
Très bien.
Avez-vous bien dit que le premier ministre pourrait rendre rétroactives les modifications qu'il proposera en vue d'une application au 1
er
novembre ?
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Philippe Dufresne - 10:57
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:57
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You would agree with me that the government has signalled that it wants to make amendments and that they may be retroactive.
Vous conviendrez avec moi que le gouvernement a laissé entendre qu'il veut apporter des modifications et qu'il se peut qu'elles soient rétroactives.
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Philippe Dufresne - 10:57
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:57
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There's absolutely no guarantee from this government that it won't totally gut Bill C-208 when it gets around to amending it.
Le gouvernement ne donne aucune garantie du tout qu'il ne videra pas totalement le projet de loi C‑208 de sa substance quand il le modifiera.
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Philippe Dufresne - 10:58
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:58
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My Liberal friends just said there's no guarantee that pigs can't fly. That's the kind of disrespect we have come to expect from our Liberal friends.
I have another question. What remedies do parliamentarians have to redress the government's refusal to implement duly passed legislation that is in force?
Mes amis libéraux viennent de dire que rien ne dit que le père Noël n'existe pas. C'est le genre de manque de respect auquel nous nous attendons maintenant de leur part.
J'ai une autre question. De quels recours les parlementaires disposent-ils pour remédier au refus du gouvernement de mettre en œuvre une mesure législative adoptée en bonne et due forme et qui est en vigueur?
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Philippe Dufresne - 10:58
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:59
...More
Mr. Dufresne, does Parliament have the right to hold the Prime Minister in contempt if he fails to implement legislation that has been duly passed through the will of Parliament?
Monsieur Dufresne, le Parlement a‑t‑il le droit de déclarer le premier ministre coupable d'outrage s'il ne met pas en œuvre une mesure législative adoptée en bonne et due forme par la volonté du Parlement?
...Less
Arms-length relationship
C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Ac ...
Capital gains tax
Private Members' Bills
Transfer of property
Philippe Dufresne - 10:59
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 10:59
...More
I've been a member of the House for close to 16 years now, and I've never seen a government defy the will of Parliament before. You have said that you have seen no precedent for this kind of action being taken that we saw reflected in the press release of June 30. Am I correct?
Voilà près de 16 ans que je suis député et je n'ai jamais vu de gouvernement faire fi de la volonté du Parlement auparavant. Vous avez dit que nous n'avez pas connaissance de précédents au genre de mesure que nous voyons transparaître dans le communiqué du 30 juin. Est‑ce exact?
...Less
Arms-length relationship
C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Ac ...
Capital gains tax
Private Members' Bills
Transfer of property
Philippe Dufresne - 10:59
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 11:00
...More
It had not ever been seen in history.
Il n'y en avait jamais eu d'autres de la sorte.
...Less
Arms-length relationship
C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Ac ...
Capital gains tax
Private Members' Bills
Transfer of property
Philippe Dufresne - 11:00
CPC (BC)
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford)
2021-07-20 11:00
...More
That is a very sad comment on our government.
Cela en dit long sur le gouvernement.
...Less
Arms-length relationship
C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Ac ...
Capital gains tax
Private Members' Bills
Transfer of property
Hon. Wayne Easter - 11:00
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