//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96367StephanieKusieStephanie-KusieCalgary MidnaporeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KusieStephanie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC): (1520)[English] Before I move to my questions, I want to bring a notice of motion to the committee, please.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96367StephanieKusieStephanie-KusieCalgary MidnaporeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KusieStephanie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stephanie Kusie: (1520)[English]Thank you.The motion reads, “That the committee call upon the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to appear before the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities before September 30, 2020, as part of our study on the government's response to COVID-19, and that they appear for no less than two hours.”Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96367StephanieKusieStephanie-KusieCalgary MidnaporeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KusieStephanie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stephanie Kusie: (1525)[English]Well, as I understand, I can only provide a notice of motion today, given that it is not under committee business. However, if you deem it relevant under COVID-19 business, then certainly we can move to a discussion at this point. Alternatively, as I did mention, this is the notice of motion. Given that we have witnesses here today, we can perhaps take half an hour aside or put some time aside for our next meeting, at which time we can discuss it.Committee businessSeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96367StephanieKusieStephanie-KusieCalgary MidnaporeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KusieStephanie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stephanie Kusie: (1525)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Taylor, thank you very much for being here today. I'm sure you saw in the news recently that media had reported that CMHC will study the prospect of a federal home equity tax that would see residences taxed as capital gains. How would a home equity tax impact the housing market?Capital gains taxCOVID-19PandemicSeanCaseyCharlottetownPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96367StephanieKusieStephanie-KusieCalgary MidnaporeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KusieStephanie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stephanie Kusie: (1525)[English]You talked in your opening statement about first-time homebuyers. Do you think a home equity tax would make it more difficult for first-time homebuyers wanting to enter and invest in the real estate market?Capital gains taxCOVID-19PandemicPaulTaylorPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96367StephanieKusieStephanie-KusieCalgary MidnaporeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KusieStephanie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stephanie Kusie: (1525)[English] We talked a little bit about what you think the impact on the housing market would be. We often think of how the current Reaching Home plan does not consider moving people further along the housing continuum. How do you think the home equity tax would impact the housing continuum as a whole, in an effort to move people away from homelessness and along the housing continuum? Do you think an equity tax would have any impact on that, and how? Where do you see the pinch marks in that?Capital gains taxCOVID-19PandemicPaulTaylorPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC): (1550)[English]Thank you, Chair. I will be sharing some of my time with MP Vecchio. I have just a quick comment regarding Mission, British Columbia, the community I'm in right now. The number of homeless has tripled from about 63 in 2017 to 178 in 2020, which is more than any other municipality in the Fraser Valley regional district. As a community, though, we are too small to qualify as an urban centre and too big under the rural stream for Reaching Home. In essence, we are the missing middle. I just want to share with committee members that right behind me is actually the shelter where homeless people live. We don't qualify for that funding. I was pleased that Abbotsford got some. Mission really needs support too, but we don't get it. I'll switch now to the mortgage brokers. I've heard directly from mortgage brokers regarding the Canada emergency business account. They have shared that the CEBA is being pegged against their mortgage debt when applying for a mortgage. In some cases it's impacting their ability to purchase a home. Has your organization heard anything about this taking place?Canada Emergency Business AccountCOVID-19LoansPandemicSmall and medium-sized enterprisesSeanCaseyCharlottetownPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1555)[English]As I understand it, the CEBA is not meant to count against someone's overall debt when applying for a home. Maybe we need to have a conversation with some of those local banks or credit unions. That was really my only big question. I will turn it over to MP Vecchio unless you have another quick comment, Mr. Taylor.Canada Emergency Business AccountCOVID-19LoansPandemicSmall and medium-sized enterprisesElaineTaylorPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1555)[English] That's very helpful. Thank you.PaulTaylorKarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC): (1555)[English]I'm going to move over to Ms. McGee.Ms. McGee, we know that in 2016 and 2018, point-in-time counts were done, and looking at those gives us an idea of what homelessness looks like. In 2020, of course, it's been postponed.What kind of impact will that have on data collection, and what will we be able to do so that we have that coordinated response that you speak of?COVID-19Homelessness and homelessPandemicBradVisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonSusanMcGee//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio: (1555)[English]Okay. That's great to know.When you're looking at first-time homelessness, I know that for many people who are unfortunately finding themselves without a home, it is for the first time and it is due to the pandemic. What does that look like, and are there any factors we should be looking at? Are there financial needs because of the pandemic, or is it something to do with a variety of addictions and other things that are occurring? What would you say is one of the biggest causes during this pandemic for increased first-time homelessness for people?COVID-19Homelessness and homelessPandemicSusanMcGeeSusanMcGee//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio: (1555)[English]Okay. I'm going to switch over very quickly to Paul Taylor.Right now, what are you seeing on the trends when it comes to the first-time homebuyers getting into the market during this pandemic?COVID-19Home ownershipPandemicSusanMcGeePaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89289BradVisBrad-VisMission—Matsqui—Fraser CanyonConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VisBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Vis: (1615)[English] I don't believe it's me, Mr. Chair. I believe it's Mr. Albas.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas (Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC): (1615)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mrs. Corriveau, thank you for your testimony. Recently, the Government of Canada announced a one-time payment of $600 for people with disabilities to help with the additional costs they are facing during the COVID-19 pandemic. The government recently announced that this payment would not be made until the fall, several months after Canadians have felt the impact of COVID-19 on their expenses.Based on your work, you have experience working with individuals living in low-income housing, some of whom may be experiencing financial hardship because of a disability. How important do you think it is that this tax credit be provided sooner than currently estimated by the Liberal government?COVID-19Government assistancePandemicPersons with disabilitiesSocial housingSeanCaseyCharlottetownMarie-JoséCorriveau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1615)[Translation]I agree with what you're saying.Based on what you have heard from individuals and families living in low-income housing and from your organization's perspective, what will the future concerns be in terms of providing people with decent living conditions? Does FRAPRU have the resources to continue to provide assistance?COVID-19PandemicMarie-JoséCorriveauMarie-JoséCorriveau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio: (1640)[English]Thank you very much.I'm going to turn to Mr. Taylor, but first of all, I would really like to thank Ms. Corriveau and Ms. McGee for talking about the continuum as we're looking at it. When I look at housing, I look at the whole thing and the impact in terms of that simple physics measure that whenever there is one action, you're going to get the opposite reaction as well. I look at that, and when we're talking about housing and homelessness, we also have to look at the other end. However, my major concern right now is in the middle of this continuum. From some statistics I was looking at from the CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association, one of the greatest concerns I have right now is about supply. Right now, housing inventory is at a 16-year low, and in my community it's at about 1.1 months of inventory, when we should be having averages of between five and eight months of inventory. This is just way out. The average cost of a house in Canada right now is $571,500. We know that it's gone up. Of course, there were going to be people wanting to get into the market, so we were expecting a bit of a boom, with sales going up by 26% in the month of July. I'm really concerned about the impact and I'm just going to tell you a little story about my own community.Though I know that people who live in Toronto love having Mr. Vaughan there, they like to move to my community where they get a more affordable house, a variety of different things, especially with COVID. We have backyards, we have so many great things, but we're seeing the price of housing going up. Just recently a house that was on sale for $289,000 went over the asking price by $83,000. That's almost a 33% increase. That's what we're seeing in my community, especially for first-time homebuyers, for the people trying to get into the housing market. What do you think the federal government needs to do, or what are some of things we should be aware of as we're moving forward, knowing that we have low inventory and that first-time homebuyers are being pushed out of the market because we're seeing such high prices right now? Knowing the financial turbulence facing many people right now, how are they going to be able to get a mortgage?COVID-19Home ownershipPandemicSeanCaseyCharlottetownPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio: (1645)[English]Go for it.PaulTaylorPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio: (1645)[English] Adding to that, we're just hearing that the cost of softwood lumber is going to go up by about 30%. The cost here in our community, as one of the hardware store owners just explained to me, is going to increase by 30%. If we're trying to build a house and one of the main things it needs is framing and there's a a 30% increase in the cost of creating this house, what are some of the factors we should also look at, and what can we do to help there? Obviously, that's probably for a trade negotiation that just hasn't been happening, but what can we do there?COVID-19Home ownershipPandemicPaulTaylorSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio: (1650)[English]Thank you so much. PaulTaylorSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96367StephanieKusieStephanie-KusieCalgary MidnaporeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KusieStephanie_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Stephanie Kusie: (1655)[English]Mr. Albas will proceed.SeanCaseyCharlottetownSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1655)[English]Thank you.Mr. Taylor, I appreciate the explanation you've given. Obviously COVID-19 has created a lot of challenges for policy-makers. You've talked a little bit about the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions and about making some minor changes to allow for banks and other mortgage carriers to have a 5% pocket, or a set-aside, so that it doesn't affect the overall amount of the mortgages they have under deferral.Could you maybe elaborate on that, why that would be important for offering some flexibility not only for those borrowers but also for the institutions?COVID-19Mortgage insuranceMortgagesPandemicSeanCaseyCharlottetownPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1655)[English]This brings up two points. First, the banks would not have to immediately foreclose and put a lot of people in a lot of stress trying to go through the system to recover their mortgage. Second, it would also ensure that there would not suddenly be a lot of homes going on the market at reduced rates. Obviously, that might please some people, but again, that could be factor, especially if you're in a particular neighbourhood that is dependent on one mill or a large factory. COVID-19Mortgage insuranceMortgagesPandemicPaulTaylorPaulTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1700)[English]Great. I'm glad to hear that.Thank you, Mr. Chair.PaulTaylorSeanCaseyCharlottetown//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC): (1035)[English]I'll proceed into debate on the Tibet motion, because it's not so much a notice of motion. We've already debated it and debate has been adjourned, so now we're coming back to it.Committee businessGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1035)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'll be as brief as possible at the outset. We may be able to proceed on this one quickly.The rationale for proposing this motion was that it was a specific ask from the witness testimony, and by extension, from the community, and that we as a committee taking this position clearly does make a difference and does propel the dialogue forward. We have an opportunity not only to talk about issues of human rights but to take constructive action that many people feel will drive results in terms of the dialogue moving towards that accommodation and that genuine autonomy. I hope we can take this position and contribute constructively to that outcome.I'll leave it there. Thank you, Mr. Chair.ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsMotionsSovereigntyTibetGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev (Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC): (1035)[English]My hand is up, Mr. Chair.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1035)[English]If I could, I would like to introduce a minor amendment to this motion that, after the word “between”, we insert “representatives of the Tibetan people (His Holiness the Dalai Lama or his representatives and/or the Central Tibetan Administration) and the government of the People's Republic of China”. Committee businessGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1040)[English]I'll read it from the beginning. The amended motion would read:That this committee call for dialogue between representatives of the Tibetan people (His Holiness the Dalai Lama or his representatives and/or the Central Tibetan Administration) and the government of the People's Republic of China with a view to enabling Tibet to exercise genuine autonomy within the framework of the Chinese constitution, and report this motion to the House.Essentially all we're doing is clarifying that it's not just the Central Tibetan Administration, and that we would want dialogue with representatives of the Tibetan people, which could be His Holiness the Dalai Lama, his representatives or the Central Tibetan Administration. We just wanted to broaden it a bit in terms of who we were saying we would want to have representation and dialogue from with the Government of the People's Republic of China.ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsMotionsSovereigntyTibetGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1040)[English]No, it would be after “the Central Tibetan Administration”. The brackets are around “His Holiness the Dalai Lama or his representatives and/or the Central Tibetan Administration”, essentially offering permutations and combinations of three elements—His Holiness the Dalai Lama, his representatives or the Central Tibetan Administration—who would be representing the Tibetan people.Committee businessGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1040)[English]I apologize but I don't know the answer to that. I think Central Tibetan Administration or Tibetan Central Administration.... Garnett?Committee businessGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1040)[English]It's the Central Tibetan Administration because it's a name.Committee businessLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1040)[English]The Central Tibetan Administration is correct.Committee businessGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1055)[English]My apologies, Mr. Chair, but I didn't have my hand up this time.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1100)[English] Yes, Mr. Chair, I would. Hopefully, if we take an extra 15 minutes, we will have time for my motion and for Mr. Harris's motion. I want to make sure he has the opportunity as well. Since I have the floor, I'll move quickly.Notice of my motion has been given. It's with respect to having a report at the end of this Hong Kong study. Just to briefly motivate this, we are dealing with urgent, unfolding events. It's important that we report on them to the House of Commons when we're finished this study. We can't wait until the end of a macrodiscussion of Canada-China relations. The ground, in terms of what's happening in Hong Kong, may shift substantially between now and that future time. Also, everybody knows we're in a minority Parliament. Mr. Blanchet is talking about putting forward a non-confidence motion. We could be in a situation where, at any time, we could go to an election. If that happens, we won't have time to take all of this and put it into a report. I think part of the necessity for an interim report on Hong Kong is the urgency of the situation. It is also the fact that a lot of that work might just end up being lost. I hope as a procedural matter the committee members will agree that when we finish our hearings on Hong Kong, we will take what we've learned and do our job, namely, advise Parliament, advise the government, based on what we have heard. I think providing that feedback specifically about the situation in Hong Kong will be very important. That's the rationale for this motion.ChinaCommittee businessHong KongInternational relationsMotionsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1100)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I'd like to echo Mr. Garnett Genuis and perhaps provide some clarification based on my understanding of what he said.We were thinking that the landscape here at home, as a result of the minority government, might change at any time. We on this committee don't want our work to be lost and not have the opportunity to put it forward for the government to consider, as they or all parties might, if by some chance we found ourselves in an election. There's no question that committees are incredibly important. We know that this China committee is very important, which is why we brought it back and are doing this incredible study in such an intense and compressed time frame. We believe that what we are learning is of value, and that Canadian citizens want to understand what we have learned. Part of the responsibility we as parliamentarians have is to provide that information in a report that informs and advises not only the government but also the Canadian public. I would hate for us to just do a study for the sake of a study and not be able to provide that very important feedback in terms of a report that can be used by government and the Canadian public at large on such an important topic. That is why I think there is a sense of urgency, and that is why I think there is substantive value in providing a timely and comprehensive report on this subject so that we don't miss all this great work that we've done over the last few weeks.ChinaCommittee businessHong KongInternational relationsMotionsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1105)[English]I was going to speak, but I feel that I could make matters worse, and we already have a majority. I think it's probably in my own interest not to say anything further at this point.Committee businessGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1105)[English]It's one I rarely take, but thank you.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas (Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC): (1110)[English]I will be supporting Mr. Harris's motion, although I don't think we really even need to have a vote. Quite honestly, I think there will be a consensus and we can move right to witnesses.On that point, if we are going to have a debate on the motion, if you find it's in order, I would simply say [Technical difficulty—Editor] change our mind from the motion that was passed earlier, but I always believe that more information is important. In this committee, we are often asked by the rest of our members of Parliament to know a lot about every issue and every facet. I will be supporting this. More information is good, in my mind.Committee businessGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1150)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses. The Chinese government often tries to use a bogus cultural argument to justify its repression, and for that reason, their efforts to snuff out freedom in Hong Kong are part of a strategy to try to take away freedoms enjoyed by Chinese areas. Of course Taiwan is a similar counter-example. Taiwan shows how Chinese culture is very much compatible with freedom and democracy. I was very struck by the sense that this is one step into Hong Kong and the next step will be Taiwan. We saw a similar pattern of action with, let's say, Nazi Germany going into Czechoslovakia and then to Poland. Mr. Medeiros, you spoke about Taiwan. How do we arrest this process? How do we respond to the situation in Hong Kong in a way that deters this next step into what likely is the next aggressive action plan by the Xi Jinping regime?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestEvan S.Medeiros//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1155)[English]If I could just follow up, I understand there are always differences when you try to make analogies to historic events.Is the western response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine perhaps a better analogy? Perhaps Putin had larger designs, but inflicting significant economic and other consequences on Russia because of that invasion didn't stop the annexation of Crimea, however, it slowed down what might have been intended as a larger advance.Do you think that lesson is applicable, in the sense that a strong, coordinated, international response—and Canada played a leadership role in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine—maybe doesn't stop the current aggression, but it's more likely to deter future aggression by showing that aggression has high costs?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsTaiwanEvan S.MedeirosEvan S.Medeiros//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1155)[English]Okay.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsEvan S.MedeirosEvan S.Medeiros//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1155)[English]Yes.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsEvan S.MedeirosEvan S.Medeiros//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1155)[English]Thank you so much. I think the point on Georgia is very interesting.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsEvan S.MedeirosGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: I want to ask you one more question about multilateral response.Everybody on this committee believes and every party believes that we want to have a multilateral response. My concern is that sometimes people use the need for multilateralism as an excuse to say we shouldn't act first or we need a multilateral response, so let's sit around and wait for something multilateral to happen. What I heard you say is that responding in a multilateral way means that we start with the coalitions we have and seek to expand them, so we'd be prepared to taken action right now in concert with the United States. We seek to enlarge those coalitions, but we don't wait for some mythical complete coalition to emerge.What are your thoughts on that?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanEvan S.Medeiros//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1215)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to all the witnesses. As each of you has pointed out, our ability to take appropriate action in terms of our own foreign policy and as members of the multinational community is entirely dependent on the accuracy of the information we have with which to understand the situation and chart a path forward. Toward that end, Mr. Cheung, you made some very important points around the threats to Canadian businesses operating in China, as well as the threats to Canadian citizens here on Canadian soil, from various forms of influence and coercion from the People's Republic of China. As parliamentarians, it's our responsibility to provide some information and advice and a course of action. We need to perhaps put in place legislation that would mitigate or at least protect in some regard Canadians on Canadian soil from the influence of the People's Republic of China and to protect to some extent those Canadian businesses operating in China. Could you provide us with some recommendations, some specifics, on what type of legislation and what actions Canada could take to achieve those two very important goals?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestAlvin Y.H.Cheung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1220)[English]Could you cite any examples of those types of threats that you're aware of that have occurred for Canadian businesses in China? Would you have any idea of whether the situation is escalating or is pretty much the same?Canadian investments abroadChinaHong KongInternational relationsAlvin Y.H.CheungAlvin Y.H.Cheung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1220)[English] You also mentioned how important it is for us to have accurate information and that there are all kinds of pressures against those who would provide us with that accurate information to not do so, because of the threats and consequences that they may face. How do we know and what can we do to ensure that we are getting the right information accurately and in a timely fashion, so that we can make appropriate and informed decisions?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsAlvin Y.H.CheungAlvin Y.H.Cheung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1220)[English]Are you suggesting an integrated, whole-of-government approach, not only with a point person but with co-ordination among all of the departments, so that we understand all the fronts that information is coming in from and all the pressures from all corners?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsAlvin Y.H.CheungAlvin Y.H.Cheung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1220)[English]Thank you very much.Alvin Y.H.CheungGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you very much to our witnesses. You've presented a number of excellent points today, and some good recommendations.Professor Ong, I'm curious to get to some more of your thinking. You seem to be at least partially hopeful that there is an ability to reverse the takeover we're now seeing in Hong Kong. You said that it will take time, but you seem to hold out that hope. Could you address that briefly? If that's the case, should we view Hong Kong not so much by going back to the Cold War but as a Poland, going forward, with that resilience we all know is alive in Hong Kong in the people? Could you comment on your reasons for hope?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestLynette H.Ong//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1230)[English]Yes, I think that's a good point.I'm going to turn now to Professor Medeiros. I take your point that what we're seeing in Hong Kong is not a prelude to war and that we have to be careful. Not only does Canada have about 300,000 citizens in the territory, but there are millions of like-minded friends in Hong Kong, literally millions. I think the talk of a cold war is overstated because of, as Mr. Cheung just said, the ethnonationalism we see on display in China.I'd like your thoughts. Should we think of what we're seeing in Asia now as more akin to what we saw with respect to Imperial Japan: a nationalist population and government, an expansionary state and a military regime that does not have civilian oversight? If that's the case, should the attention now not turn completely to Taiwan? Taiwan is the nation island. China wants it, and it has long made this clear. Do we not need to stick together on this, particularly with the Taiwan Defence Act in the United States? If this is not managed properly, unlike Hong Kong, this could lead to a real clash in the South China Sea. Could I get your comments on that? You have just over a minute to respond.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsTaiwanLynette H.OngEvan S.Medeiros//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1315)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.To our witnesses, thank you for joining us today. You've all added some really solid and good information, as well as insights.I'll start with Ms. Sharon Hom.First, thank you for stiffening my spine. Sometimes my questions are rhetorical, but it's always good to hear the reasons for hope and the reasons why we need to do more, not less, for the people of Hong Kong, while we also consider how best to help our friends in neighbouring Taiwan.I thought earlier today that Professor Ong had some really good points about Hong Kong still being the golden goose for mainland officials and for the country. This means the territory is not going to suddenly or quickly—or even, perhaps, gradually—become just another Chinese city, because of the wealth and prosperity that would be lost. This will benefit both dissidents and activists in Hong Kong to continue their struggle for freedom and human rights.You asked for a few minutes. Could you maybe give us in 90 seconds all the things you wanted to say but didn't have a chance to? I will cut you off after 90 seconds because I, too, am on the clock and under the mindful eye of our own Big Brother here.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSharonHom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1320)[English]Right.SharonHomSharonHom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1320)[English]I'll have to cut you off in about 15 seconds, but go ahead.SharonHomSharonHom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1320)[English]Thank you.Professor Kaeding, I thought your insight was unique. You provided a possible glimpse into the thinking of mainland officials. The point you made that Beijing cannot be trusted has some serious implications, because if a partner cannot be trusted, that means they have to be dealt with as untrustworthy.What, then, should Canada's policy be? Should it be, then, for Canadian trading, to have commercial relations with both mainland China and Hong Kong, but also have the internal fortitude to denounce and speak out when Beijing is out of step, something that unfortunately we're not seeing now? Is it the combination of both trade, which is mutually beneficial to both parties, and speaking out, finding our voice in Canada and perhaps following in the footsteps of Australia and some of the other Asian nations that are closer to mainland China? What say you to that?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsInternational tradeSharonHomMalte PhilippKaeding//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1320)[English]Right. That would mean, of course, that when you speak out, there might be some blowback on commercial relations, but that's just the price of standing up.[Translation]Basically, Mr. Chatigny, you do not believe there is much that Canada or its allies can do to change Beijing. Did I understand you correctly?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsMalte PhilippKaedingGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1325)[Translation]Thank you very much.StéphaneChatignyGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1340)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to say thank you to all our witnesses for their testimony today. Mr. Chatigny, if you wouldn't mind, I'll start with you.I am concerned about the safety of the 300,000-plus Canadians who reside in Hong Kong. I'm also concerned that the Canadian government may or may not be ready in case many of them decide to come home, and many may not have proper documentation, for example a Canadian passport. I believe you've mentioned that the communist regime in China may exert some control over who can leave based on what travel documents they have. Is this a concern, and how does the Canadian government address it quickly? Canadians in foreign countriesChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphaneChatigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1340)[English]Okay. We've had in this committee former ambassador Mulroney come and talk to us about the need for Canada to take action, obviously working with allies, but to also, more importantly, rethink our foreign policy framework when it comes to China. Now, just the way this has all happened in Hong Kong, it begs the question of whether or not China even respects its own policy of one country, two systems. I'm also concerned about what that may mean for other parts of that policy, including Taiwan. I'll ask Professor Hom first, and then maybe I'll ask the other two to also speak to it.Do you believe that Taiwan will be the next target after Hong Kong? ChinaHong KongInternational relationsTaiwanStéphaneChatignySharonHom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1345)[English]Yes. I appreciate your testimony.Mr. Kaeding, you haven't had a chance to speak in my intervention. What do you think in terms of Taiwan? Will it be next?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsTaiwanSharonHomMalte PhilippKaeding//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1350)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses. I think this has been a really inspiring panel. Professor Hom, thank you for your call to optimism. We've seen how people-powered movements have been able to bring about incredible change in environments where maybe it wasn't expected. I think the courage you speak of from these Hong Kong protesters can be an example for us as parliamentarians. Sometimes we hear people say, well, we should be cautious, because we should be afraid of the consequences if the Chinese government retaliates, but we have this inspiring example of people who are aware of major consequences to their own lives and security and yet are courageously standing up for justice and freedom.I would note as well that we just celebrated 75 years since victory in the Pacific, honouring Canadian soldiers who gave their lives for the freedom of Hong Kong. I hope that we as a committee, and as parliamentarians, continue with their example in mind, as well the example of these protesters. I wonder if you could speak to the potential positive downstream effect of the stand being taken by people in Hong Kong. We've talked about the downstream negative effects of how the Chinese government might follow up what's happening with action in Taiwan and elsewhere. What about the downstream positive effects when people stand up for their fundamental rights inside of Hong Kong? What is the likelihood that this will impact people's response to abuses of human rights on the mainland?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSharonHom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1355)[English]Thank you very much.I wonder if you can follow up on the question of sanctions as well, because there have been discussions in both panels about sanctions. I didn't hear any of our witnesses today say they were against targeted Magnitsky sanctions. I heard concerns about making sure that our sanctions were targeted against human rights abusers, that we weren't imposing broad, poorly targeted sanctions against a whole economy. Frankly, the trend in sanctions anyway is to be focused on those who are guilty while trying not to impact those who are innocent. Do you want to comment on how we can effectively target sanctions to not impact the wrong people but to impact those who are responsible for repression?ChinaEconomic sanctionsHong KongInternational relationsSharonHomSharonHom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1355)[English]Yes.SharonHomGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1355)[English]That's the key to Magnitsky sanctions, right? They're targeting the individuals, not the people.Thank you, Mr. Chair.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): (1425)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I have talked to members of all parties about this, so I'll be starting my remarks with a quick notice of motion. Today CBC News reported that Canada's Competition Bureau is investigating Amazon's online practices in Canada with a focus on potential abuse of dominance as it relates to the potential treatment of their independent sellers. I'm providing the following notice of motion:That, pursuant to standing order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology invite representatives from the Competition Bureau as well as Amazon.ca, to appear regarding reports of anti-competitive behaviour on the part of Amazon.SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneBrianMasseWindsor West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1430)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'm going to direct most of my questions to Dr. McCauley. It's nice to see you. I might call you Ed, and I apologize. I'm just going to start by recognizing that our community in Calgary has potentially experienced the pandemic in a different way, and experienced an economic shift in a different way, because we were in a pretty bad spot going into the pandemic earlier this year in terms of unemployment numbers and economic downturn. We'd seen a lot of policy changes that were detrimental to the energy sector.I was just wondering if you could, very briefly because I only have five or six minutes, outline almost in bullet point format some of the challenges that the university has experienced, your asks to both the provincial and federal governments to rectify those challenges, and any observations about how the University of Calgary has been addressing some of the needs of the broader community during this time of crisis. I know that you guys play a really important part in that, but I think, for the record, for committee purposes, if you could do that very succinctly, it would be very helpful for members to hear about that.Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19PandemicUniversity of CalgarySherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneEdMcCauley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1430)[English]Ed, I'm sorry to interrupt you. The time goes so quickly. You have about two minutes. What do you need? What are you asking for? Put it on the record. Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19PandemicUniversity of CalgaryEdMcCauleyEdMcCauley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1430)[English]I'll close with another question to you, Dr. McCauley. I've had a few queries from students and I think this is a topic of discussion across the country. Students have said, “Look, our studies were disrupted this year. We didn't have online classes. What's the deal with tuition and how are we going to get our education?” Do you have anything to say to them or any best practices for how universities in Canada can go forward? What are your needs from the federal government with regard to facilitating both?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19PandemicEdMcCauleyEdMcCauley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1435)[English]I just want to take the opportunity with the time I have left to thank you, Dr. McCauley, and the entire team at the University of Calgary for doing your best and punching above your weight during this crisis, from a research perspective and by looking for ways to support our community during an economic crisis. I hope all of my colleagues on this committee will look to your institution as a way to assist Alberta through the economic crisis and during the pandemic. Thank you for all of your hard work. Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19PandemicEdMcCauleyEdMcCauley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen (Red Deer—Mountain View, CPC): (1450)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.It's indeed an honour to have the witnesses here today and to talk about some of the issues that are so important to such a large sector of our society.Of course, the type of education that you're going to be offering in the fall and into next year is going to be quite different, thanks to COVID-19, and students are going to be asked to take courses online, which many regard as a substandard learning experience, especially when it comes to labs and hands-on courses. I know I've spoken to many students who were excited about going to university this year, and they were so disappointed that this method of learning is going to be their new reality—so much so that some of them are considering waiting for a year in order to be out of the system until things get sorted out. As perhaps you might have heard as the different MPs tried to get on to this virtual meeting today, we have concerns with broadband access and so on. Those Canadians who are living in rural Canada don't have adequate broadband access to the Internet, so we're almost looking at a two-tier education system, whereby some students will have full access to courses and all the things that entails, while others are left out of the higher education system almost completely.My question is whether universities have put in place plans to address this particular issue. How will you be able to provide universal access to higher education if students have enrolled in your courses and they find out that it just can't work for them? Will you have the flexibility to be able to offer them a refund or to allow them to come back at a later time? Perhaps I could go to Universities Canada first.Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Distance learningPandemicSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoynePhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1455)[English]Thank you very much. I will go to Dr. McCauley.Could you address that? I was a high school math and physics teacher for 34 years. I was involved with distributive learning and different types of things. There are students who excel in that particular platform, and there are others who are completely lost. The other aspect of it is that it isn't so much.... A lot of it has to do with the technology and so on, but you have to train your instructors to figure out how to make this work effectively. I think that's one thing. We talk about making sure there's a machine out there for a student, but you have to make sure that your instructors are properly trained so that they can actually keep that motivation and keep the engagement.What types of things have been done to assist in the distribution of learning from the instructor's point of view?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Distance learningPandemicPhilipLandonEdMcCauley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1500)[English]Thank you.EdMcCauleySherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray (Kelowna—Lake Country, CPC): (1505)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'll start my questions with Mr. Landon from Universities Canada.Since COVID-19 is taking most students out of their physical classrooms, have you heard, with all the universities that you represent, if they're looking at increasing their class sizes due to the fact that they might have been restricted previously because of classroom physical limitations?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19InfrastructurePandemicSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoynePhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1505)[English]I'll go on with a couple of other questions.Of course, this might be different for each university, but as an average going across the country, what is the average percentage of tuition that comes from international students?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Foreign studentsPandemicPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1505)[English]Mr. Landon, with a lot of international students potentially not entering Canada this year, as you mentioned in your earlier remarks, are you seeing universities substituting for this with domestic enrolment instead, since they might be losing some of that international enrolment? Are you hearing that universities would be substituting those spaces with domestic students instead?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Foreign studentsPandemicPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1505)[English]If potentially there may not be as many international students this fall, have you heard whether any universities might be amending their admission requirements to allow for more domestic students, to bring up their capacity, which would also increase some of their revenue?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Foreign studentsPandemicSchool entrance requirementsPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1505)[English]We did hear today that there were increased costs, in large part due to technology. Of course, that's with everyone. It doesn't matter whether you're in business or in this type of work; everyone has had to increase their costs with technology, sanitation and all kinds of different issues with COVID-19. Have you had conversations, or are you hearing about a reduction in costs on the campuses related to not having as many students or faculty there on a daily basis?Colleges and universitiesCostsCOVID-19PandemicPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1505)[English]We did hear a lot today about research dollars and some of the good work that's been done. Have you heard if some of the research funding that's been coming in...? Is it fairly consistent? Has it been increasing? Has it been decreasing during this time? Are you getting any sense of that, looking forward?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19PandemicUniversity researchPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1510)[English]I have a last quick question. When it comes to students in the fields that we've seen are important during this time, especially those in nursing, the sciences and supply chain management, have you heard of some universities changing their models to address some of these sectors that have really risen during this time and where there's a greater need?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Essential servicesPandemicPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC): (1520)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Before I begin, I'm just going to move my motion from last meeting:That, as part of its study on the Canadian Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic, the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology invite Daniel Therrien, Privacy Commissioner of Canada, to testify regarding the development and ongoing operation of the recently released contact tracing application.SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1520)[English]I'll just say quickly that I'm fine with that. I think that's good.SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1525)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you, everybody, for your patience while we dealt with that quickly.I will begin with Mr. Landon. We don't have any representatives for students here today, but I still want to ask about the government's support for Canadian students. The Canadian Federation of Students has launched a petition stating that the $912-million Canada student service grant was flawed from the start. They strongly criticize its practicality and usefulness for students.My first question would be whether the federal government consulted with any universities about the value of this program.Canada Student Service GrantCOVID-19PandemicStudentsVolunteering and volunteersSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoynePhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1525)[English]Okay. Was this an idea that you think the universities or students would have considered or proposed on their own?Canada Student Service GrantCOVID-19PandemicStudentsVolunteering and volunteersPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1525)[English]Okay. One reason I'm asking this is that we already have a program called the Canada summer jobs program. In my riding specifically, there were more businesses and groups that did not receive funding for it than did, which means there were more students who were not hired than who were hired to work jobs for these various businesses here.Again, I'm just wondering whether pre-existing programs such as Canada summer jobs or some other arrangement would work better to help students impacted by COVID to continue their studies.COVID-19Labour marketPandemicStudentsPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1525)[English]Okay. A big concern for a lot of students is getting a job after they graduate. How much has COVID limited the job market for potential university graduates?COVID-19Labour marketPandemicUniversity degreesPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1525)[English]Do you want to elaborate on any of those measures specifically?PhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1530)[English]Do you find that the broadband available to our universities is sufficient to move to more e-learning, more online learning, or even just the on-campus experience as we move to a more enhanced digital experience?Broadband Internet servicesColleges and universitiesCOVID-19Distance learningPandemicPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1530)[English]You're absolutely right.Are you or your members planning for how the economy is likely to shift during and after COVID? How does it look for lines of work that require post-secondary education?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Labour marketPandemicPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1530)[English]Okay.Just quickly, how do the restrictions on Canadian university campuses compare with those in the U.S. or in other countries?Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19PandemicPhilipLandonPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1530)[English]Thank you for that. I really appreciate it.PhilipLandonSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1535)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I have a question that I'd like to pose to all of our witnesses here today. I've heard from a number of students in my riding about the issue of mental health and socialization, and how learning from home and being away from the classroom environment with their peers, as well as reduced extracurricular activities, may affect their ability to succeed. What steps have all the witnesses here today undertaken with their respective institutions to help students with their mental health and social connections, both during this pandemic and moving forward? We'll start with Ms. Fusaro.Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19Mental healthPandemicStudentsSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneMagdaFusaro//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1535)[English]Great, thank you.Mr. Ratto.MagdaFusaroMattRatto//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1540)[English] Great, thank you.Mr. McCauley, go ahead.MattRattoEdMcCauley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1540)[English]Thank you.Mr. Landon, do you have anything else to add for the universities you represent?EdMcCauleyPhilipLandon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1540)[English]That's great. Thank you.On a similar theme, I'm wondering if anyone can let us know today.... If there were some resources or some different external programs available, what would those look like? Where do you see the greatest need...that might assist with this? I'll just open it up for anyone who wants to chime in.Colleges and universitiesCOVID-19PandemicPhilipLandonEdMcCauley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1540)[English]Thank you. I think we're out of time. EdMcCauleySherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (1220)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for being with us today, gentlemen.My first question is for you, Chief Larkin. You spoke of training. Currently, in many countries around the world, the prerequisites for becoming a police officer include undergraduate training. In Quebec, it is college–level. I imagine that in Canada, it is pretty much the same thing in terms of direct entry into the RCMP.Do you recommend changing the training so that police officers have a higher level of education?Colleges and universitiesPolice servicesRacial equalityJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodBryanLarkin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1225)[Translation]Here is my second question. According to Statistics Canada, the number of police officers in Canada is currently declining in proportion to the size of the population. By that, I mean that we have a certain number of police officers per 1,000 residents. However, that number has been going down over the past 10 years.Can you explain why? Also, is your association concerned about it?Police servicesRacial equalityBryanLarkinBryanLarkin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1225)[Translation]I hear no noise around me, Mr. Chair. I don't know what the problem is.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Duraiappah, Indigenous people have a very strong presence in Canada's urban centres. Half of the Indigenous population lives in urban settings.Do police forces have any specific measures with respect to relations with Indigenous people? Are any measures already in place as to the required way to interact with them?Cities and townsIndigenous peoplesPolice servicesRacial equalityJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105807RobMorrisonRob-MorrisonKootenay—ColumbiaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisonRob_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rob Morrison (Kootenay—Columbia, CPC): (1250)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My first question is for Chief Larkin, representing CACP. We've had several witnesses come forward and talk about the lack of data and information sharing, especially dealing with systemic racism, between police departments. I know the CACP has the law enforcement information data standards subcommittee, which is designed to help police forces across Canada share information, yet we just don't seem to be getting there.I'm wondering if you have a recommendation or can help this committee with regard to how we actually get our police departments across Canada sharing information so that we can analyze what's happening and perhaps have some solutions. For example, do you think the federal government needs to step in and say that all police departments will be part of your LEID subcommittee so that we do share information?Data sharingPolice servicesRacial equalityJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodBryanLarkin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105807RobMorrisonRob-MorrisonKootenay—ColumbiaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisonRob_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rob Morrison: (1250)[English] Perfect. Thank you.I have one more short question.We've had a lot of comments from different witnesses on the hiring of police officers in remote communities. Representing the CACP, where you have some of the remote communities' law enforcement people, can you maybe guide us a little bit in the benefits—or maybe not so much the benefits—of hiring local people to police more remote communities?Police servicesRacial equalityRemote communitiesStaffingBryanLarkinBryanLarkin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105031DougShipleyDoug-ShipleyBarrie—Springwater—Oro-MedonteConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShipleyDoug_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Shipley (Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, CPC): (1255)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll direct this to either chief. Perhaps both would like to weigh in on this. Some police agencies have identified that a full 20% to 30% of the calls for service are mental health calls, often not criminal in nature. I'd like you to comment on this. How is this affecting your services in terms of resources, and what solutions do you have to avoid violent conclusions to a lot of these calls?Mental healthPolice servicesRacial equalityJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105031DougShipleyDoug-ShipleyBarrie—Springwater—Oro-MedonteConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShipleyDoug_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Shipley: (1255)[English]I said either one or both, if they want to, Mr. Chair. JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodNishanDuraiappah//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC): (1330)[English]Thank you, Chair.I want to start off by saying thank you sincerely to the witnesses, Mr. Falconer and Mrs. Whitman, for their opening remarks, which were very powerful and very emotional. I think all members of the committee can agree that we very much appreciated them. I have a number of questions for you, Mrs. Whitman. I hope we can fit them all in. I am the shadow minister for diversity, inclusion and youth. My counterpart is Minister Chagger. Over a year ago, the Liberal government announced the anti-racism secretariat with the mandate to help end systemic racism in our institutions and to inform all government departments on how they can combat this, essentially. This was well over a year ago. We know that it's been in working order since at least June, from the minister's remarks. Mrs. Whitman, you represent the Native Women's Association of Canada as their president. It is the most prominent advocacy group in Canada for native women. Have you been contacted by the anti-racism secretariat or Minister Chagger's office within the past year? Police servicesRacial equalityJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodLorraineWhitman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1330)[English]Actually, that leads really well into my next question. On June 3 you released a rather scathing report card of the Trudeau government regarding their response to the national inquiry for missing and murdered indigenous women, which we know was released over 14 months ago. My understanding is that the Liberal government was supposed to release a strategy implementation plan and they have not. I have seen your comments in the news about enough consultation; time for action. Can you just comment for the Liberal members of this committee and for all members of this committee on what you want to see in this strategy plan, if it ever does get released by the government?Police servicesRacial equalityLorraineWhitmanLorraineWhitman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1330)[English] That was very well said, Mrs. Whitman. Thank you for those remarks. I appreciate them. I'm sure all members of the committee have heard them and I hope they are taken back to the ministers responsible for releasing the strategy from the Liberal government. My last question is about human trafficking. We know this government has cut resources to several facilities combatting human trafficking in Canada. I know we see indications that indigenous women and girls are more likely to fall victim to human trafficking.How can we better resource indigenous communities to stop women and girls from being victims of human trafficking? How can we also better staff our police to get women out of this horrendous industry?Human traffickingIndigenous peoplesPolice servicesRacial equalityWomenLorraineWhitmanLorraineWhitman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105521RaquelDanchoRaquel-DanchoKildonan—St. PaulConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DanchoRaquel_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Raquel Dancho: (1335)[English]That was very well said. I agree and I think all members of the committee would agree that we need more resources for these facilities to better support indigenous women and girls.Thank you, Mrs. Whitman, for your candid remarks. We appreciate them.LorraineWhitmanJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105031DougShipleyDoug-ShipleyBarrie—Springwater—Oro-MedonteConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShipleyDoug_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Shipley: (1350)[English]Thank you.Thank you to all the witnesses for appearing today.Ms. Whitman, this first one is for you. Are you satisfied with the current percentage of police women employed in the various first nations services across this country and the RCMP as a whole?Indigenous peoplesPolice servicesRacial equalityWomenJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodLorraineWhitman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105031DougShipleyDoug-ShipleyBarrie—Springwater—Oro-MedonteConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShipleyDoug_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Shipley: (1350)[English] Thank you. That leads into my next question. What strategies could be easily and quickly put in place by the RCMP to recruit into their service more members, specifically women, from first nations communities? Indigenous peoplesPolice servicesRacial equalityWomenLorraineWhitmanLorraineWhitman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105807RobMorrisonRob-MorrisonKootenay—ColumbiaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisonRob_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rob Morrison: (1355)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Ms. Whitman, in looking at best practices, we're looking at different policing models and what's working and what isn't working. Have you seen some best practices that we should be employing nationally? As well, should local communities be more involved in the hiring of police recruits?Best practicesPolice servicesRacial equalityJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodLorraineWhitman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105807RobMorrisonRob-MorrisonKootenay—ColumbiaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisonRob_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rob Morrison: (1355)[English]You have great questions. You did touch on that earlier in your response to the police officers being involved in community events. Certainly, unfortunately, that isn't happening across Canada. That is a critical part of being part of a community, not just responding to, for example, violent calls, but actually being there as a friend and not as somebody who's arresting someone. It's critical.I only have about a minute left. I wonder, Mr. Falconer, if you can just add on to—Police servicesRacial equalityLorraineWhitmanJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105807RobMorrisonRob-MorrisonKootenay—ColumbiaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisonRob_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rob Morrison: (1400)[English]Okay, just add on to a best practice that you would see employed across Canada.Best practicesPolice servicesRacial equalityJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJulianFalconer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): (1500)[English] Yes, one hour will be insufficient time for the witnesses. I don't want to waste any of that hour debating the amount of time. This is just to give you notice that Conservatives will be moving to invite these witnesses back for an additional three hours after this hearing is over, unless, of course, this meeting can be extended.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]WE Charity Foundation received $30 million from the Government of Canada. Unfortunately, you've only repaid $22 million. Where is the rest?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeScottBaker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]Sorry, the question was where is the rest? Where is it? In what account is it being held?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityScottBakerWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]Was the money originally transferred to WE Charity or the WE Charity Foundation?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityScottBakerScottBaker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]Did it remain there or did any of it get transferred over to WE Charity?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityScottBakerScottBaker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]Thank you.My next question is for you, Ms. Marquez. You do government relations work for WE. Since March 1 have you been in contact with anyone in the Prime Minister's Office?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharityScottBakerSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]Anyone in the office of Minister Morneau?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillReferences to membersWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]The date is March 1.Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillReferences to membersWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]Who?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillReferences to membersWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]What are the names?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillReferences to membersWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]She's a public servant.Again, just to make sure, have you communicated with anybody in the Prime Minister's Office since March 1?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1510)[English]On what date?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Come back to it later in the meeting. We don't have time.How long was your conversation with the PMO policy director on May 5?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Did you get any assurance that WE Charity could begin implementing the proposal on May 5?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]How did WE think it was authorized to start implementing a government program if no one in the government had authorized you to do so on the 5th?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Okay, but there was no contribution agreement for another month and a half, so somebody told you over at WE that you could go and start spending money, hiring people and implementing the program. Who told you that?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Was it Mrs. Al-Waheidi who told you that you could start implementing the program? Just the name, please.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharitySofiaMarquezDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]No, that's not my question. I'm sorry, I do have to cut you off. I'm not asking about the contribution agreement.Ms. Dalal Al-Waheidi: [Technical difficulty—Editor]Hon. Pierre Poilievre: I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]We are limited in time because the witnesses are planning to skedaddle out the door early. My question is not about the contribution agreement. It would not be concluded for another six weeks. My question is about who authorized them to start on the 5th.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Who told you that you could start implementing the program and spending money on May 5?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]I know that, but you began implementing the program on May 5. Somebody ought to have told you that you could do that. Who was it?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Just give me the name, just the person. Who told you?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Okay, so you're either—DalalAl-WaheidiWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]When you come back for your next testimony you'll have to answer this question. You would not, as an organization, have begun spending large sums of money on this program if someone in the government had not told you, before May 5, that you could start doing so on that date.I'm asking you again—this will be the fourth time. Somebody would have to have told you. Who was it?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]What was the total amount that WE paid for Ms. Sophie Grégoire Trudeau's accommodations and other expenses in London this year?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsTravelWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]Did anyone in your organization have communication with Ms. Sophie Grégoire Trudeau after March 15?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]No one.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]What about with Nancy McCain?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]Ms. Marquez, are you aware of any communications with those persons from the WE organization?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]What about with Nancy McCain?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]Okay. Ms. Marquez, you had a call with PMO policy director Rick Theis on March 5, which coincidentally was the same day that WE began implementing the program. When you indicated that WE was going to begin implementing the program on that day, did he tell you that it was inappropriate because it had not yet been approved by cabinet?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]However, at that time, you, as an organization, were implementing the proposal—on that day, in fact. You spoke for 30 minutes with the PMO and nothing came up about that implementation.Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]Okay, so, this would become a $500-million contribution agreement. Your organization is implementing it on that day. You're talking with the Prime Minister's Office, the office of the head of government, and nothing came up in that call about the fact that your organization was beginning to implement it that day.Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]You didn't mention to him and he didn't mention to you that you guys were beginning to implement the program at that time. Okay.Mr. Baker, did you, as an organization, conclude an agreement with National Public Relations?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsNATIONAL Public RelationsWE CharitySofiaMarquezDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]No, I mean, was there ever a deal signed or put in place between WE and National Public Relations?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsNATIONAL Public RelationsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]Mr. Baker, do you know?DalalAl-WaheidiScottBaker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]You had not finalized anything with them?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsNATIONAL Public RelationsWE CharityScottBakerScottBaker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1540)[English]We'll need you to follow up with that information.Who was the highest-paid speaker that you engaged as WE between 2015 and 2019?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsProfessional feesWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Yes, just the highest-paid person.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsProfessional feesWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Was Margaret Trudeau paid in any way, shape or form in relation to the 2017 Canada 150 celebration or for any ancillary event approximately around the same date?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsProfessional feesWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]It's an incredible coincidence that your organization has suddenly registered to lobby all of these months after all the lobbying happened. We look forward to examining the dozens of meetings that you had, including with high-level political officials close to Justin Trudeau. Your organization had paid his family half a million dollars.Specifically, I want to speak about Laura Lebel. Ms. Marquez, you said you communicated with Ms. Laura Lebel. Was it an email you sent?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Did she grant that call?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]That's how this 30-minute phone call happened with Rick on the day that WE began implementing the program, is that correct?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Did you mention the possibility of a contribution agreement, or some sort of contract that WE could sign with the government?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Did that come up in the conversation at all?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]What about a start date, did that ever come up?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]You did discuss the issue of a start date with the policy director?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]You said you were discussing the need to get it up and running fast, and your organization was launching the same day.Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Did he ask you for the briefing?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Did he ask for this briefing from you?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]So you just started shopping around a briefing to the PMO, saying, “I'd like to brief someone in the Prime Minister's Office. Can someone take my call?” Is that right?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]So, the finance department sent you to the PMO. Who in the finance department told you to call the PMO?Cabinet ministers' staffCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillOffice of the Prime MinisterReferences to membersWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]It was Amit Singh. Okay.How much time do I have, Chair?SofiaMarquezWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]Did you have any information about the communications that WE had directly with Bill Morneau?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillReferences to membersWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]Mr. Kielburger and Mr. Morneau spoke.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillReferences to membersWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]You didn't know that had happened?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMinister of FinanceMorneau, BillReferences to membersWE CharitySofiaMarquezSofiaMarquez//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]Finally, back to Mr. Baker, can you tell me why the contribution agreement was backdated specifically to May 5? I'm not interested in knowing why it was backdated generally; I know how that works, but why was that specific date, May 5, picked for the backdating? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharitySofiaMarquezDalalAl-Waheidi//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]Why was it May 5?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDalalAl-WaheidiWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.DalalAl-WaheidiWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1555)[English]The question was: Why May 5? I'm just wondering if you can ask the witness to answer that question. Why was it that date?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1600)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1600)[English]I'm just wondering if the witnesses might volunteer to give us another half an hour of their time.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper (St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC): (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be splitting my time with Mr. Morantz. When three minutes come up, cut me off.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Cameron, for being here. Did I hear you correctly that Katimavik is involved in or was involved in the administration of the CSSG?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1620)[English]Could you provide some details of what that arrangement was?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1620)[English]The agreement was entered into. There was a formal agreement that had been entered into.Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1620)[English] When were you contacted by WE, or when was Katimavik contacted?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1620)[English]Your agreement had been more or less finalized by when?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1620)[English]If you could undertake to provide the committee with a copy of that agreement, it would be helpful.Could you elaborate on the scope of the activities that Katimavik would be involved in?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1620)[English]Was Katimavik at any time invited to make a proposal to administer the CSSG?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsInvitation to tenderKatimavikWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, CPC): (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'll just follow up on that line of questioning.Your organization is part of the Canada service corps. Is that correct?Canada Service CorpsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1620)[English]Did ESDC ever reach out to your organization to discuss what you could do in terms of programming in the COVID context?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDepartment of Employment and Social DevelopmentGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1620)[English]I have a record of that call. It was on April 15. What did you say they told you? Was it that different organizations in CSC would be contacted to assist in providing the CSSG? Is that what you said?Canada Service CorpsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDepartment of Employment and Social DevelopmentGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1625)[English]That call, though, being on April 15, would have been seven days before the Prime Minister announced the CSSG and several weeks before it came to cabinet. Was the CSSG explicitly mentioned in that call to you by ESDC?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDepartment of Employment and Social DevelopmentGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1625)[English]Could you check that and get back to the committee?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1625)[English]Sure.Just out of curiosity, do you believe that the WE organization was the only organization in Canada, outside of the public service, that could have provided the CSSG, given the number of really large and impressive charities in Canada, like, for example, the YMCA and others?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1625)[English]I have limited time. I have one quick last question.John-FrederickCameronWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1625)[English]I'll go back to the subcontract that you were negotiating and almost got signed. What was the dollar amount of the contract that you would have entered into with WE Charity or WE Charity Foundation?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1625)[English]Okay. Thank you.John-FrederickCameronWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming (Edmonton Centre, CPC): (1645)[English] Thank you, Mr. Cameron, for appearing today and for the very important work you do in this sector. I very much appreciate it, and I appreciate the work of the not-for-profits in Canada, particularly the work that your organization is doing. It sounds very intriguing. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1645)[English]Had you ever worked with WE before this specific contract came up?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1645)[English]Do you know with which WE organization you were going to have the agreement? Did WE share which one of its groups you'd be contracted with?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1645)[English]WE Charity, thank you.When ESDC was calling.... It suggested that it spoke to your organization on April 15 about capacity. Do you recall that conversation it had with you? ESDC has submitted a document that suggests it was speaking to a variety of groups to see what capacity they would have to deliver a program like this.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDepartment of Employment and Social DevelopmentGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1645)[English]Thank you for that.In your existing programs where the students are involved, are they volunteers? Do they receive some form of funding, or are they strictly volunteering in these programs?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsStudentsVolunteering and volunteersWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1650)[English]They're volunteering. This program would be quite a bit different by providing capital to volunteers, so providing grants to them versus the pure volunteerism that your organization does a great job with.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsStudentsVolunteering and volunteersWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1650)[English]Have you ever applied under the Canada summer jobs program? Has your organization applied under that program?Canada Student Service GrantCanada Summer JobsCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsStudent summer employmentWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1650)[English]Do you think that could have been expanded, particularly with the programs you have, to have more youth involved with it, if there was the capacity within the program dollar-wise?Canada Student Service GrantCanada Summer JobsCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsStudent summer employmentWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1650)[English]Since this program was cancelled, has anyone reached out to you or picked up the phone to talk to you about a go-forward path and taking advantage of the 40-some years of experience on what's next, what we could do?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1650)[English]Well, I suggest that hopefully they will pick up the phone and talk to you because we are running out of time. These students want to get back to school. I would encourage my friends across the aisle to pick up the phone and have that dialogue with you.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1700)[English]Thank you, Chair. Mr. Cameron, when was the first time that Katimavik became aware of the CSSG? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1700)[English]Who did that call come from?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1700)[English]Okay. Other than the call you had on April 15, or thereabouts, with ESDC, there had been no other communications with ESDC about student programming in this particular context, and more specifically the CSSG, until some time after, I presume April 22. That's what you're saying, just in terms of establishing a timeline.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDepartment of Employment and Social DevelopmentGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1700)[English] I apologize. Yes, you qualified that.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDepartment of Employment and Social DevelopmentGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1700)[English]Okay. In terms of the WE Charity, which you indicated, in your understanding, is the party that Katimavik entered into an agreement with, were you aware of the WE Charity Foundation at any point?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1700)[English]You didn't know anything about WE Charity at all, any of their entities—I mean, other than to have heard of them. In terms of their involvement in this type of youth programming, or connecting youth in the context of the not-for-profit sector, that would not have been something you would have been familiar with.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1700)[English]Katimavik is active in all 10 provinces and three territories in Canada.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1705)[English]Katimavik has a track record and is involved in connecting youth, with approximately how many not-for-profit organizations at any given time? We're talking, I presume, about hundreds.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1705)[English]You have that track record going back to what, 1977? Do I have that right?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1705)[English]Okay, and it's in both English and French, in Quebec. In that regard, in terms of partnering, has Katimavik partnered with other charities or other organizations to deliver a program?Agreements and contractsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsKatimavikWE CharityJohn-FrederickCameronJohn-FrederickCameron//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1705)[English]I think that satisfies the questions that I had.Thank you, Mr. Cameron, for that.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1710)[English]I have a motion. Here it is:That the Standing Committee on Finance hold an additional meeting on its study into government spending, WE Charity and the Canada Student Service Grant on Wednesday, August, 19, for three hours in length; that each party can submit witnesses; and that the meeting focus on WE contracting NATIONAL Public Relations and the ability to deliver the program in the province of Quebec.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessConflict of interestGovernment contractsMotionsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1710)[English]It says, “That the Standing Committee—”WayneEasterHon.MalpequeRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1715)[Translation]Perhaps we could agree—RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1715)[Translation]Mr. Fortin, is it true that you won't be available at all next week?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1715)[Translation]All right.Mr. Chair, could I suggest that next week we have a meeting of our sub-committee with a representative from each party to plan our next steps? It could be by telephone, and it wouldn't be necessary to have a Zoom meeting. The meeting would obviously be in camera to plan the list of future witnesses and upcoming meetings.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1715)[Translation]It would just be a planing meeting, not a meeting with witnesses.Does that work for you, Mr. Fortin?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1715)[Translation]Okay, I understand. That's great.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1715)[Translation]Yes, absolutely. We accept your commitment to hold a planning meeting. We can schedule other meetings after that.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordPeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, CPC)): (1455)[English] Colleagues, thank you very much for being here. It's good to see all of you virtually. I hope you've been having a good summer. Today's meeting will only last approximately 90 minutes. We had originally scheduled the President of the Treasury Board to be with us today, but he informed us a few days ago that he was unavailable for today's meeting, so I have scheduled him for next Thursday for the full two hours.Today's meeting will be somewhat truncated. We have a couple of witnesses, but I do not believe we will need the entire 90 minutes. We'll probably go through one complete round of questions with our witnesses and then I'll take about five minutes at the end of the meeting for some very brief committee business. Hopefully that meets the approval of everyone on this committee.To our witnesses, you've probably received these instructions before but in case you have not, when you are speaking, please make sure that if you're speaking in English you are on the English channel. For those witnesses who may want to alternate between English and French, I suggest that if you start a statement or answer a question in one of the two official languages, complete your statement, question or answer in that official language. Please do not switch back and forth between French and English, because that causes problems for our technicians. I also ask that you speak slowly and clearly so that our interpreters can hear your statements and we are able to give proper interpretation.Angela, I do not have, at this point, the speaking order of our witnesses. I wonder if you could introduce our three witnesses. My understanding is that each one of them will have a brief, five-minute opening statement. If you can inform me which of our witnesses is first, I will introduce that witness and then we'll commence. Colleagues, we'll have our normal rounds of questioning, which will be six minutes for the first round, five minutes for the second round and then two and a half minutes for the last round. Angela, who is our first witness?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityAngelaCrandall//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Thank you.Mr. Thomson, the floor is yours. AngelaCrandallGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you.Angela, do we have another speaker or have we concluded our opening comments?KateBahenAngelaCrandall//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you very much.Ms. Picco, the floor is yours. You may have to unmute your microphone. That's perfect. We can hear you now.AngelaCrandallGailPicco//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Thank you very much. We'll now go into our six-minute round of questions, starting with Mr. Aboultaif.GailPiccoZiadAboultaifEdmonton Manning//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): (1515)[English] Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses. I didn't expect to hear a political speech from Ms. Picco, but I have to go to Mr. Thomson, and ask the following question. Is there usually scrutiny of charities to respect official languages?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1515)[English]Yes, I'm asking about official languages. Is there usually a scrutiny of charities to respect Canada's Official Languages Act?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1515)[English]That's fantastic. You've answered part of my next question. If an organization or a charity were to take on a project nationwide, that organization would need to respect the Official Languages Act. Is that correct?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1515)[English] Why then would the We Charity hire a Quebec organization to take on the operation if they have the capacity?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsProvince of QuebecWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1515)[English]That means they don't have the infrastructure to run a program in Quebec or in French-speaking cities in Canada.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsProvince of QuebecWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1515)[English]If they are weak in Quebec and in the French language, they must be weak elsewhere, where the Acadian community is quite established. Do you agree with that statement?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsFrancophonesGovernment contractsWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1515)[English]Okay. Are you aware of organizations in Quebec that would be able to take on a project that WE was going to take on, and with full capacity there be able to deliver the program properly?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsProvince of QuebecWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1515)[English]If you can assist me.... I'm not interested in naming names. You don't have to name organizations. How many organizations are you aware of that you think would be capable of handling the same WE project in Quebec?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsProvince of QuebecWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1520)[English]Yes.GregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1520)[English]Okay.Would Ms. Bahen be able to assist us on that?GregThomsonKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1520)[English]Okay. With regard to the process to select an organization, you mentioned the due diligence and the French-speaking community. Between Quebec and other Canadian cities, there is probably about 25% to 30% of the total Canadian population. It's a very significant number of people who needed the attention of a program that was going to cost us $912 million. I look at you as experts in this field. To understand the status in the French-speaking cities and provinces, it's quite important, as feedback to us, to be able to understand why any given organization would take on a national project. It must have that infrastructure to be able to deliver the project properly to all Canadians, fairly and equally, as it's supposed to be. Do you believe it's a requirement for an organization to have that national scale program? The eligibility to be able to carry on this program does speak to a proper infrastructure across the country. Is that correct to suggest such a thing?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityKateBahenKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]We'll have to unfortunately interrupt now, because we're at the end of our six minutes. We'll now go to our second six-minute intervention. Mr. Jowhari.KateBahenMajidJowhariRichmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]We are completely out of time, Mr. Jowhari.We will now go to Madame Vignola.[Translation]You have the floor for six minutes.MajidJowhariRichmond HillJulieVignolaBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[English]I will suspend for just a second, Madame Vignola, and I won't charge you any time. We will see if we can get our interpreters or our technicians to clarify this. Give us a moment, please. JulieVignolaBeauport—LimoilouJulieVignolaBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[English]Madame Vignola, can you re-ask your last question? We will see if the audio has corrected itself.JulieVignolaBeauport—LimoilouJulieVignolaBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[English]Madam, unfortunately I'll have to interrupt you. We are completely over time. However, I would ask you to provide the remainder of your answer in writing and direct it to our clerk. That way we can distribute the full answer as quickly as possible to the rest of our committee members.We will now go to Mr. Green for six minutes, please.KateBahenMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Thank you very much.We'll now go to our five-minute round of questions, starting with Mrs. Block.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block (Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC): (1545)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I do want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. I appreciate the testimony that we've heard so far. I want to follow up on some of the previous questions.This is for Charity Intelligence. A number of questions have been raised on the Byzantine nature of the WE network of charities and for-profit ventures. Is this type of convoluted network common in the charity world?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsWE CharityKateBahenGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1545)[English] Thank you for that. Again, Charity Intelligence, you have publicly asked why Craig and Marc Kielburger are listed as co-founders of WE rather than as directors, officers or trustees. Can you provide an explanation as to why that question is important, especially as it relates to the CSSG contract?Board of directorsCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1545)[English]I'm not sure how much time I have. Mark Blumberg was quoted in a Globe and Mail article on August 1. He's a lawyer whose specialty is the charitable sector. He said this regarding WE Charity: “It’s not like any charity that I’ve ever seen.... So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions about the charity sector from this group. But I think what makes it clear to me is that we need more transparency in the charity sector.”I think we've been hearing that a little bit, certainly in response to some of the questions by Mr. Green. There was this back-and-forth about full and frank disclosure, whether a government or an entity that's seeking to have an organization oversee a contract on its behalf...whether or not there is that full and frank disclosure, or whether that government or entity would need to ask.I'm wondering whether you can comment on Mr. Blumberg's conclusion that more transparency is needed in the charity sector, and quite frankly on the process of governments and what they can rightly expect from a charity. AccountabilityCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsWE CharityGregThomsonKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1545)[English]Yes. KateBahenKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you very much.We'll now go to Mr. MacKinnon for five minutes.KateBahenStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Ms. Picco, I know you have probably quite a lot to offer in your answer, but unfortunately we're completely out of time. We only had five minutes. I would, however, ask you and encourage you to give your complete answer in writing to our clerk, so that it can become part of the official record of this committee. It will be distributed to all members of our committee as soon as you respond.StevenMacKinnonGatineauGailPicco//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]We will now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes, please.GailPiccoKellyMcCauleyEdmonton West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley (Edmonton West, CPC): (1555)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.Ms. Picco, you talked about the elites, such as Telus and everyone supporting WE. Telus, Royal Bank, and all those people, when they found out what the situation was, dropped their sponsorship and support of WE. I don't think it's a great example to say, “Well, because these guys made a mistake, that's wonderful. The government made a mistake as well.”I want to follow up as well on Mr. Green's comment, and the answer back, about the obligation for WE to be open about some of those financial issues. It's actually, believe it or not, the Treasury Board Secretariat. It's right in its framework. It's not as much on WE to bring forward all the faults around its financial problems. It's actually part of Treasury Board's mandate to have asked these questions.For Ms. Bahen and Mr. Thomson, is there any further research that you've done since your last appearance that perhaps you want to bring to light?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsWE CharityTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1555)[English]Are you ready to talk about it now?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsWE CharityGregThomsonKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1555)[English]I want to ask about your experience around this. Again, it's about the transparency and how things are set up within charities. One of the issues when we had the brothers appear before us was that they were talking about how the government forced them to set up a shell company, basically, to hold all the liability every step of the way. The liability they talked about that's in the contract is a standard government liability clause that goes into every single contract. We've heard in this very committee about the problems for small and medium-sized enterprises in terms of the liability they have to take on. If you sell 10 dollars' worth of toilet paper, you have an unlimited liability clause. The brothers explained that they created a shell company to receive all this money because, supposedly, of this liability. I used to be head of a hospital foundation for six hospitals for seniors. Whenever we received a penny from the government—and it was quite often—we didn't go out and set up separate shell companies to receive the money. Are you familiar with this as a standard operating practice? Do the charities you deal with go out and set up a separate shell company every time they get a grant or contribution?AccountabilityCanada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsFinancial managementGovernment contractsWE CharityKateBahenKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1555)[English]It's funny that you should make that comment. Again, if you look at the Treasury Board regulations, mounds of pages—pages and pages—go over and cover every single one of these possible things. They just seem to have been missed altogether.Mr. Thomson, are you familiar with any charities that have set this up? Again, at our hospital foundation, we actually built a hospital with provincial government money. We didn't set up, for lack of better words, a separate shell company. Are you familiar with any?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsFinancial managementGovernment contractsWE CharityKateBahenGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1600)[English]Have you seen anyone change the purpose of a foundation to do it?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsFinancial managementGovernment contractsWE CharityGregThomsonGregThomson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1600)[English]Yes, it's very strange.How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?KateBahenTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]We have no time left, Mr. McCauley, unfortunately.KellyMcCauleyEdmonton WestKellyMcCauleyEdmonton West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1600)[English]I would just say very quickly, Ms. Bahen, that I appreciate your love of transparency. We should steal you for Treasury Board president.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!TomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]We will now go to Mr. Drouin, please, for five minutes.KellyMcCauleyEdmonton WestFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you very much. I'm sorry. I apologize for cutting you off, but we do have a fairly tight timeline to deal with. We'll now go to our final interventions, which will be two and a half minutes each, starting with Madame Vignola. GailPiccoJulieVignolaBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Unfortunately, we will have to end our questioning there. If any of our witnesses wish to respond to Madame Vignola's questions, once again, I would ask that they respond in writing to our clerk.Our final intervention, for two and a half minutes, will go to Mr. Green.JulieVignolaBeauport—LimoilouMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Be very, very brief.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, thank you for your commentary. As you know, as your chair, I pay very close attention to the testimony given and to the questions asked. I have always insisted that all committee members treat all of our witnesses with the utmost respect, and that, of course, is reciprocal.I know that the questions, in some cases, were very pointed, but I did not find anyone on this committee—in my opinion, at least, Mr. MacKinnon—to be badgering a witness. I find that the witnesses are well prepared and extremely knowledgeable and, quite frankly, can handle themselves without your assistance. That's, again, only my opinion.The reality is that we are completely out of time. Regardless of whether we want this discussion to go forward or not, we are out of time. However, given the fact that Mr. Green has posed a number of scenarios that witnesses did not have an opportunity to respond to, I would ask that they do so in writing.I see your hand up, Mr. Green. We'll go to your final point.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsGovernment contractsWE CharityStevenMacKinnonGatineauMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]It is, Mr. Green, but—MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you for your comments. I have one point of clarification. You did not have 20 seconds left; you had a few seconds left. However, I appreciate your comments. Again, as chair, I have been paying extremely close attention to all testimony. When, from time to time, I need to intervene, I will. I give most committee members a fair amount of latitude because I respect the members of this committee.However, with that, we are completely out of time. I would like to thank all of our witnesses who have appeared before us today. If you have additional testimony that you think would be beneficial and instructive to our committee, please submit it to our clerk as quickly as possible. You are excused. Thank you, all.Colleagues, I will not be suspending.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMatthewGreenHamilton CentreKateBahen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you.KateBahenStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Colleagues, if you recall, a number of weeks ago we agreed as a committee to schedule time for Nuctech to provide testimony. That meeting is scheduled for August 24. However, at the time, we did not set a deadline for Nuctech to submit documents to our committee. In the interim, what I and our clerk have done is contact Nuctech and set, on the assumption that this committee would support us, a deadline of August 21 for all documents to be submitted. That would be three days in advance of our next meeting dealing with Nuctech.However, procedurally, we have to have a motion adopted by this committee to set a firm deadline. The motion that I will present to you en anglais—and then I will ask Angela to do it en français—is the following:That all documents sent for in the order adopted by the committee on Thursday, July 23, be submitted to the committee no later than 12:00 p.m. on Friday, August 21 EDT and that the documents be posted on the committee's web page as soon as possible after they are received.Mr. McCauley.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessCommittee requesting documentsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMotionsWE CharityMatthewGreenHamilton CentreKellyMcCauleyEdmonton West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1615)[English]Sorry to interrupt, but I don't recall us asking for documents for this motion—not that I wouldn't welcome them. I thought we just asked for officials from PSPC, Global Affairs and the Communications Security Establishment for briefing.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessCommittee requesting documentsConflict of interestGovernment contractsMotionsWE CharityTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]I believe there were requests for some documents, Mr. McCauley. This is more of a catch-all so that if there are documents needed to support the testimony you will be receiving, we have them. We have requested them.Committee businessKellyMcCauleyEdmonton WestKellyMcCauleyEdmonton West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1615)[English]Okay, thank you.Committee businessTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you.Angela, I'll ask you to convene a recorded vote on the motion.(Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)The Chair: We have one final motion, and it's about posting documents to the website. I will read it into the record:That all documents requested in the orders adopted by the committee on Friday, May 29, and Friday, June 19, 2020, be posted on the committee’s web page as soon as possible after they are received.I believe you have received that in French as well.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsCommittee businessCommittee requesting documentsConflict of interestCOVID-19Decisions in committeeGovernment contractsMotionsPandemicRecorded divisionsWE CharityKellyMcCauleyEdmonton WestFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Sure. I'll read it again for you, Francis.That all documents requested in the orders adopted by the committee on Friday, May 29, and Friday, June 19, 2020, be posted on the committee’s web page as soon as possible after they are received.I would ask Angela to conduct the vote on that motion. (Motion agreed to: yeas 10; nays 0)The Chair: Colleagues, the last point is to remind you that at our next meeting, which is a week from today, next Thursday, we will have the President of the Treasury Board and his officials for two hours. Originally, as some of you may recall, we had the Treasury Board Secretariat president and officials scheduled for today. As I mentioned at the outset of this meeting, the president was unavailable, and rather than have only officials without the president's appearance, I made an arbitrary decision to call the Treasury Board next week, because that's when he said he would be available. This means, however, that we will have to reschedule a meeting time for PSPC officials to appear on the subject of WE Charity. I will not deal with that now. We'll wait and take a few minutes at the end of next Thursday's meeting to decide whether or not this committee wishes PSPC to appear at a later date, and what that date may be.With that, colleagues, seeing no other interventions and no other hands raised, I wish you all a good week—Committee businessCommittee requesting documentsCOVID-19Decisions in committeeMotionsPandemicRecorded divisionsFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Yes, please go ahead.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Angela, I believe it says from 2:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m. EDT.Committee businessStevenMacKinnonGatineauAngelaCrandall//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]As you probably know, Steve, the whips set the dates and the times.Committee businessStevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]We are at their mercy. For example, if I'm not telling tales out of school here, I believe the Bloc has its summer caucus next week for two or three days. They had requested that next Thursday's meeting be postponed by a day, because if not, then their caucus meeting would be disrupted. However, the whips couldn't come to an agreement, because other committees had already had their times set. We are at the mercy of the whips.Committee businessStevenMacKinnonGatineauFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89179KellyMcCauleyKelly-McCauleyEdmonton WestConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McCauleyKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kelly McCauley: (1620)[English]I heard it was Holland who didn't like Steve.FrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25520TomLukiwskiTom-LukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LukiwskiTom_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Well, the cat's out of the bag. Colleagues, thank you very much. We are adjourned.KellyMcCauleyEdmonton West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold (North Okanagan—Shuswap, CPC): (1230)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses for being available today.Mr. Edwards, you talked about a pilot program for co-operative aquatic management with the federal, provincial, Nuu-chah-nulth and local governments. Can you tell us how, when and why the program seems to have been abandoned?Fisheries policyNuu-Chah-NulthPacific salmonKenMcDonaldAvalonDanEdwards//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1230)[English]What were the goals of that board with the groups involved?Fisheries policyNuu-Chah-NulthPacific salmonDanEdwardsDanEdwards//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1230)[English]Thank you.I guess the next question here is for Mr. Edwards, Ms. Scarfo and Mr. Mirau.You've all talked about what appears to be a broken system. Some of you have mentioned that consultation seems to be a sham. We've heard this from east coast fishers as well.Is the consultation process working as it used to, or where are the roadblocks? What do you see as the challenges?Pacific salmonPublic consultationDanEdwardsDanEdwards//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1235)[English]Thank you.I'd like to hear from Mr. Mirau on this as well.KathyScarfoBradMirau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): (1300)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Let me begin by challenging Mr. Hardie's suggestion that there was a lot of conflicting evidence from our witnesses on the problems with the wild salmon fishery. That simply is not the case. In fact, there's been a great deal of consistent testimony. Indeed, except for allocation of fisheries and perhaps access to the different fisheries, there's remarkable consistency in testimony. We've heard consistently about a dysfunctional DFO. We've heard about a lack of stock assessments, failure to base decisions on science, lack of consultation with stakeholders and broken governance models. Much of that has been reaffirmed today at this meeting. Mr. Edwards, you said that we need to dismantle the entire organization. I just want to be clear about what organization you are referring to. Are you referring to DFO's Pacific region or the regional aquatic management board or some other organization?Department of Fisheries and OceansGovernment accountabilityPacific salmonKenMcDonaldAvalonDanEdwards//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1300)[English]That is, of course, consistent with testimony we've heard at other meetings where we're reviewing the decline in salmon stocks.Could you tell us what that dismantlement would look like in practice? If you dismantle, you have to replace it with something that's going to be effective. Be as brief as possible, because I have one other question.Department of Fisheries and OceansGovernment accountabilityPacific salmonDanEdwardsDanEdwards//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1300)[English]Thank you. If you could expand on that and send that to us in writing, we'd be glad to review that as well. I know you don't have a lot of time to expand on it, but we'd be glad to receive something in writing from you.I have a question for Ms. Scarfo and Mr. Mirau.Both of you have referenced the U.S. experience. Ms. Scarfo, you talked about the fact that you're taking mostly U.S. fish. Mr. Mirau, you talked about the U.S. experience and what the Americans did to protect and restore salmon stocks.If you could both perhaps respond, what is it that we haven't done in Canada specifically that the U.S. has done successfully to ensure that its salmon stocks remain healthy, whether it's in Washington state or up in Alaska?Fisheries policyPacific salmonUnited States of AmericaDanEdwardsKathyScarfo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1305)[English]Mr. Mirau.KathyScarfoBradMirau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1305)[English] Thank you.Ms. Scarfo, you suggested that there has to be disaster relief for your industry. We know that the commercial processors and harvesters have a special fund or special funds that address the impact of COVID on their industries. The disaster relief you're referring to is much broader than just COVID, I assume. Fisheries and fishersGovernment assistancePacific salmonBradMirauKathyScarfo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1305)[English]You said that the social sciences—KathyScarfoKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins (Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC): (1315)[English]Thank you, Chair. Ms. Scarfo, you mentioned that the trolling fleet catches primarily American fish. The United States, I believe marks 100% of its hatchery fish. Do you see a price difference between a fish that's marked as a hatchery fish and a natural spawned fish? Do you get a price differential on that at all?AquaculturePacific salmonPrice determinationKenMcDonaldAvalonKathyScarfo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]Depending on the nature of the hatchery, whether it's a conservation hatchery or it's a hatchery that's designed to put more fish into the ocean, what you're saying is that we're returning some of those fish that were meant to be captured.AquaculturePacific salmonKathyScarfoKathyScarfo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]I have a question for Ms. Scarfo, and maybe Mr. Mirau. There has been a lot of discussion about investments and how the department and the governments of the day invest their money. There's a litany of investments—some small, some large—on the Department of Fisheries and Oceans website, announcements made by local MPs and/or the minister. Many of these I look at and go, “I don't see these as being issues directly related to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans or the enhancement of fisheries at all. These seem to be tangential issues meant more to appease special interest groups.”Would any of you care to talk about whether or not you think the department is actually investing in things that will make a consequential difference?Department of Fisheries and OceansFisheries policyGovernment accountabilityPacific salmonKathyScarfoBradMirau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]Thank you.I'm going to move over now to Mr. Bryan and his Whooshh system. It's a very interesting technology. You said that you capture about 18 images of a fish that goes through and that with the six tubes you could move about 30 fish per minute. That's a lot of technology you have at your disposal.Are you able to detect whether or not a fish has a coded wire tag in it when it goes through your equipment?Fisheries sciencesPacific salmonBradMirauVinceBryan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]If you're able to capture that kind of information, then you must be able to determine whether or not a fish has gone through your system twice. Can you tell this committee anything about how many of the fish you send over the Big Bar slide return back through the slide and go through your system again? What is that percentage, if any?Fisheries sciencesPacific salmonVinceBryanVinceBryan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]Is that data collection at risk? Who will have access to that raw data when you're done with it? Do you hand it directly over to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or are you allowed to keep it with your own firm and disclose it publicly?Fisheries sciencesInformation collectionPacific salmonVinceBryanVinceBryan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]How many fish to date have you seen? Can you give the committee any indication of how many fish to date have you moved from below the slide to above?Pacific salmonVinceBryanVinceBryan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]Is that specifically one species or all species?Pacific salmonVinceBryanVinceBryan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]I would be very curious to find out what that data is, Mr. Chair. I will use a little bit of this time to make a request that we send a letter to the minister requesting updates on the number of fish that this system is moving in a timely manner and reporting back to the committee. There is no reason that this information shouldn't be available to this committee.How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?Pacific salmonVinceBryanKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]Mr. Chair, I'm not making a formal motion. I would be surprised if anybody on the committee would say no to it, but if we want to have that discussion later, I would be more than happy to entertain that.KenMcDonaldAvalonVinceBryan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English] Thank you.VinceBryanKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1335)[English]Looking at who we've heard from so far, I would agree that we need two to three more meetings after today. We have heard from one side on the salmon aquaculture issue; we haven't yet heard from the aquaculture farmers themselves in this study. We have some science that we haven't heard about. I agree that I'd rather finish this study before we move on to another one. We need to finish this one so that it's rounded out. If we don't and we don't bring in a well-rounded committee list, we risk the chance of the report being dismissed as incomplete by some of the other stakeholders we haven't heard from. Committee businessKenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1335)[English]I agree with Mel. If we issue a report in which key stakeholders have not participated and they come back and criticize the report and say they weren't consulted so how can these recommendations have any real weight or credibility, we will have failed. This promises to be a major report and set of recommendation that will hopefully move the protection and enhancement of our wild salmon stocks forward. Again, I would think we would want to have at least three more meetings with witnesses. Obviously our team will get back to you, Mr. Chair, with additional witnesses we hope will fill the gaps in testimony that still exist. Then perhaps, there would be one more meeting for drafting instructions.Committee businessKenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1340)[English] Thank you for looking into getting us in early if possible. I think we see a situation on the west coast that's very dire right now with regard to the salmon. These people need help. For the industry, the economy and the indigenous and non-indigenous, it's a big issue, so I think we need to carry on with this, get it wrapped up and get those recommendations in.Thank you.Committee businessKenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1350)[English]If we can...not make the decision today, so that we can consult with our teams and whips before we move forward, but certainly be prepared for September 21, when the House is set to resume.Committee businessKenMcDonaldAvalonJaimeBattisteSydney—Victoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC): (1140)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Before I get into questions for our excellent witnesses, I have a couple of quick housekeeping thing. I want to give other committee members notice of the following motion:That this Committee prepare a report on the situation in Hong Kong, to be tabled following the completion of hearings looking specifically at the situation in Hong Kong.That's a notice of motion. I'm not moving it at this time. I also want to suggest to you, Mr. Chair, that in light of that notice of motion, and a motion that we previously adjourned debate on, that we consider scheduling 20 to 30 minutes to discuss these motions after the witnesses at the end of Monday's meeting. I'll put that out there for your consideration and the consideration of other members.Now I'll go to my questions for the witnesses. Thank you for your excellent testimony. It's important that we hear that Magnitsky sanctions are a recurring theme not only in these hearings on Hong Kong but really across the board. I really appreciated Mr. Rogers' clear statement that the Chinese regime does not respond to statements or rhetoric, but to pressure. I want to also single out Mr. Kwan's comments on Nuctech. I think they're so important that we should take a look at what happened here from the government on this Nuctech issue. Given what we're finding out now, it looks like this is either historic stupidity, explicit corruption or maybe someone here getting caught in some kind of honey trap. It's just so bizarre that it's hard to explain any other way, and I think we really need to get to the bottom of that. Thank you, Mr. Kwan, for your comments on that. I want to drill further now into the immigration and lifeboat questions with Ms. Go and Mr. Rogers. In the opposition, we've been calling on the government to have and to articulate a plan for helping Canadians who want to leave Hong Kong to be able to do so. I'm quite concerned that the Government of China could take action against Canadians living in Hong Kong. Canadians are well aware of the case of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. One of our witnesses at the last meeting referred to the possibility of “thousands of Michaels” being used against Canada—really the escalation of hostage diplomacy on a massive scale—if efforts are made by the Chinese government to prevent Canadian citizens, citizens of other countries, and human rights defenders who might want to claim asylum from being able to leave Hong Kong. I think we've already seen efforts by the Chinese government to make it more difficult for British nationals to leave in response to the schemes put forward by the British government.Maybe, Mr. Rogers, I'll ask you first. What efforts are we seeing by the Chinese government to prevent foreign nationals from leaving, and what should Canada do to plan for that scenario and be prepared to ensure the security of our citizens?Canadians in foreign countriesChinaEconomic sanctionsFreedom of movementGovernment contractsHong KongInternational relationsNotice of motionGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBenedictRogers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1140)[English]Thank you very much. We're seeing threats of preventing people leaving, and it seems like there's a real risk of this kind of hostage diplomacy accelerating and growing to include more people. I see you nodding, Mr. Rogers. Thank you for that.Ms. Go, do you want to wade in on this same question, in terms of a lifeboat scheme? What is the likelihood of the Chinese government trying to make it more difficult for us to help people in Hong Kong get out, and what kind of countermeasures should the government be prepared to take?Canadians in foreign countriesChinaFreedom of movementHong KongInternational relationsBenedictRogersAvvyYao-Yao Go//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): (1205)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chairman.I have many questions; I'm going to jump right in.Professor Davis, I'm going to try to summarize your testimony and responses.You talked of media raids, likening it to fishing, which left a chilling impact, of course, on other activists and reporters; rigged elections; handpicked judges; a chief executive overseeing the security apparatus, at least outside that of the mainland officials; secret star chambers; the rule of law in Hong Kong being replaced by rule by law, or whatever we say, from officials in Beijing; and a secret police that sounds an awful lot like what we saw in East Germany, the Stasi. Should we begin to think of Hong Kong going forward as a quasi-east Germany, Poland, Hungary, the eastern European bloc nations? It's a territory now firmly under the control of Beijing's rule. What say you to that characteristic, looking back in time, in terms of the threat to the people of Hong Kong?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsOppressionGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichael C.Davis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1205)[English]Thank you.Michael C.DavisAvvyYao-Yao Go//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1205)[English]Ms. Go, I'll come to you in a second. I have a couple of questions here but I want to go in order. I appreciate your eagerness.Professor Davis, as a legal scholar who knows Hong Kong international law, what would your advice be to this committee and its members? Should we consider holding hearings in Hong Kong? What would your advice be to us as federal lawmakers in our standing in that territory?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsAvvyYao-Yao GoMichael C.Davis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1205)[English]All right.Michael C.DavisMichael C.Davis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1205)[English]That's very interesting. We're already seeing a chilling impact; I know Ms. Go has mentioned that.Currently, there are no visa restrictions required for Canadians entering Hong Kong or for Hong Kong citizens coming to Canada. We might not get arrested, but we simply might not be permitted entry.ChinaFreedom of movementHong KongInternational relationsMichael C.DavisMichael C.Davis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1205)[English]Okay.Your belief is that members who are participating in this committee could well be detained if they made it into either mainland China or.... Let's keep it in Hong Kong, where they had freedoms in the past. We could have said just about anything and been able to travel in and out of the country. That is no longer the case. We could well find ourselves on trial, either in Hong Kong or in mainland China.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsMichael C.DavisMichael C.Davis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1205)[English]Right. Thank you.Mr. Rogers, very quickly, you're located now in the U.K. Has your group ever been located in Hong Kong, and would you travel to Hong Kong?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsMichael C.DavisBenedictRogers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1210)[English]I have 15 seconds to ask you this.You mentioned that the one country, two systems is caput and that the Sino-British declaration is now null and void. What does this mean for Taiwan?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsTaiwanBenedictRogersBenedictRogers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1210)[English] Thank you.BenedictRogersBenedictRogers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev (Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC): (1215)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I'd also like to thank all the witnesses for this very important testimony. We are learning incredible things.I want to direct my question to you, Mr. Kwan. You made some recommendations, and one of the recommendations you made was that we need to have a critical assessment of takeovers of Canadian companies, particularly in energy, resources, mining and other critical infrastructure.I'm wondering if you could give us an idea of why you're making that recommendation, why that situation might be a threat to national security and what we perhaps should be looking for and what we should do about the results of this critical assessment.ChinaForeign investments in CanadaInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCheukKwan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1215)[English]I want you to clarify something. You said that if a Chinese company has ownership of a Canadian company here, on foreign soil, they still have an obligation to the Government of China. Could you expand on that a bit and highlight why that's such a national security interest to Canada and why we must be aware of it?ChinaForeign investments in CanadaInternational relationsCheukKwanCheukKwan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1220)[English] Thank you very much. CheukKwanGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1305)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Thank you very much to all our witnesses. It is very enlightening to hear from all of you today, and I'm glad you are able to join us and share your knowledge and expertise.I've got six minutes. I'm going to try to spend a few minutes with each of you. I'll ask you to keep your answers as brief as possible.Professor Cohen, first, thank you for that brief political history of the territory of Hong Kong pre-, during and then post-handover. Could I ask you to explain a term very briefly, so it is clear to everyone? You referred to justice in mainland China as political justice. You don't mean justice by the ballot box there, do you? What is “political justice”, just so that we're clear on the terminology^ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1310)[English]I will go to someone else. I'll come back to Professor Cohen.Chair, I hope you'll indulge me and allow me to reset my time here since we have a technical issue.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1310)[English]Mr. Chu, I'm going to make a few statements [Technical difficulty--Editor]. In your opinion, have I now violated China/Beijing's, national security law, making me a potential problem for the PRC?ChinaFreedom of speechHong KongInternational relationsNational securityGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSamuel M.Chu//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1310)[English]“I support a democratic China.” “I believe the PRC should embrace democracy.”ChinaFreedom of speechHong KongInternational relationsNational securitySamuel M.ChuSamuel M.Chu//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1310)[English]Yes.Samuel M.ChuSamuel M.Chu//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1310)[English]All right. I regret that unless things change, you will not be able to visit your ancestral home again, nor potentially even talk to your grandparents. I had the pleasure of living in Hong Kong during the handover in 1997 and 1998, and I have experienced the freedoms there, both initially under the colonial rule as well as under the Sino-British agreement and the Basic Law. It is clear that much has changed, owing to Beijing's heavy-handedness.Ms. Boyajian, if you were a foreign affairs adviser to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, what are some of the things you would recommend that the Canadian government do, both to aid the people of Hong Kong and to prepare to safeguard the freedoms currently enjoyed in Taiwan or the Republic of China?ChinaCivil and human rightsHong KongInternational relationsSamuel M.ChuAnnieBoyajian//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1315)[English]Thank you.Are you able to speak to Taiwan at all? Is that in your bailiwick?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsTaiwanAnnieBoyajianGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1315)[English]Chair, I have a point.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1315)[English]It looked like I was down 50 seconds before you started to—GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1315)[English]Very well.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas (Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC): (1335)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here with us today.I'd like to ask each of you one question that I have for all of you, perhaps starting with Ms. Boyajian, then Mr. Cohen and finally Mr. Chu. Could you respond in 45 seconds or less if possible because I want to survey all of our witnesses. We have over 300,000 Canadian citizens living in Hong Kong. As parliamentarians, should we be concerned for their personal safety given all that we've seen in the past few months?Canadians in foreign countriesChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestAnnieBoyajian//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1335)[English]I am also concerned that if many were in a position to leave, they might not, because they have family members who are not Canadian citizens or have other obligations. They may not have current identity documents to be able to get a new passport where they could travel as a Canadian citizen.I appreciate each one of you giving your views on it. I am quickly going to go to the Freedom institute one more time.The rule of law was one of the pillars, I would say, behind the one China, two systems policy in Hong Kong in relation to that. It seems that mainland China is imposing its own laws and interpreting them with such wide scope. You mentioned your concern about Taiwan being the next area. Former ambassador David Mulroney said that the Government of Canada must completely rethink its foreign policy when it comes to China. Do you believe that this collapse of the one China, two systems policy by China itself deserves that level of response?ChinaHong KongInternational relationsSamuel M.ChuAnnieBoyajian//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1340)[English]Thank you.Mr. Chu, your organization is based in the United States. Today, the Secretary of State announced that for all intents and purposes, the Confucius Institute will now be treated as a foreign mission of the PRC. Obviously, they're concerned not just about the suppression of rights for people such as you, domestic Americans, but also that countries such as the PRC are utilizing these kinds of institutes as foreign policy to influence domestic policy. Do you believe that this is a good step and that this is another approach that should be studied by other western countries?ChinaForeign influenced activitiesHong KongInternational relationsUnited States of AmericaAnnieBoyajianSamuel M.Chu//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1340)[English]That's a very good point.Thank you, everyone. Samuel M.ChuGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1345)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, we're hearing information discussed about interference in the lives of Canadians on Canadian soil as part of the broader neocolonial project of the Chinese state. I think this is something Canadians need to know about and should certainly become more concerned about the more they hear about it.When we in the opposition raise issues of Chinese state interference, we get what I see as a sort of ineffectual machismo response from the foreign affairs minister, saying that nobody had better be doing this and that they take it very seriously, but without substantively responding or taking action. We heard testimony from Amnesty International at the last committee meeting that despite that kind of bluster, the system is very ineffective in responding to victims of foreign interference who are seeking help and assistance, and also that there isn't an effective or co-ordinated response to foreign interference here in Canada. We're hoping to see the government proceed with policy and legislative changes, and to see the minister take action, such as expelling diplomats when and where appropriate.I would appreciate a brief comment from all three witnesses on the things we can do to move from bluster to action, to protect Canadians living in Canada from having their freedom of speech, their activities and their associations interfered with by a foreign government.Maybe we could start with Ms. Boyajian on that.ChinaForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestAnnieBoyajian//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1345)[English]Mr. Chu.AnnieBoyajianSamuel M.Chu//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1350)[English]Thank you.Mr. Cohen.Samuel M.ChuJerome A.Cohen//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1400)[English] Yes. As these are substantive motions that are not dealing with witnesses, I would suggest that these discussions be in public. That's where we began the discussion on the motions, so I would suggest that. It facilitates the transition as well.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1400)[English]Thank you.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): (1505)[English]Wayne, I think you might be the problem.ElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf IslandsWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1505)[English]You might be the problem.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1505)[English]Everyone else hears just fine.WayneEasterHon.MalpequePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Mr. Robidoux, when was the first conversation after March 1 and before April 22 in which you heard WE mentioned in any of your conversations with members of the government?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]What was the date?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]After March 1, when was the first time you heard WE or the Kielburgers mentioned in your communications with ministers or their staff?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English] Between March 1 and April 16, were WE or the Kielburgers ever mentioned in communications you had with your deputy minister?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]In any of the communications that you had between March 1 and April 16, were WE or the Kielburgers ever mentioned in your communications with the PCO?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]Have you ever spoken to anyone in the WE organization?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]According to Michelle Kovacevic, there was an April 16 call, and I'm going to read her transcript. She says, “According to my records, the first mention of WE, to me, was on April 16th.” She also says, “On that call, on April 16th, it would have been Rachel Wernick and also the associate deputy minister.” That's you.She says that was the first time she ever heard WE mentioned in the COVID context. Was it you or Rachel Wernick who mentioned WE in that April 16 call?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]So it was an email from WE. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]Sorry. It was an email about WE.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]That's where you began.... That was the first time you heard discussion that WE might deliver the student service grant.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1525)[English]In that call, was the Canada student service grant mentioned?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1525)[English]No, not the terms—the program. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Mr. Robidoux, was it just you, Ms. Wernick, and Ms. Kovacevic on the April 16 call or meeting?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Would there have been any exempt staff on the call?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Would that call have been recorded?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]All right. Then there was another meeting on the 18th with Madam Kovacevic and Madam Wernick. Were you involved in that meeting?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Ms. Kovacevic said that it was Ms. Wernick who suggested WE, and then Ms. Wernick said it was Ms. Kovacevic. Do you remember who actually made the suggestion to involve WE in the delivery of this or any other program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Did you suggest to Ms. Wernick that she contact Mr. Kielburger?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1545)[English]Did you ever hear it mentioned that ministerial staff were interested in engaging WE for any purpose after March 1?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Were you aware that the CSSG was pulled from the cabinet agenda on May 8?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]What due diligence did your department conduct between May 8 and May 22?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]You had no involvement in the period that followed.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]All right. Now I have a question for the minister. You've had 24 hours to check and find out whether WE has given back the full sum that your department gave WE in the first instance. Is the money back in the hands of your department, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Is the money back? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]So we don't have the money back.CarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]When will they have their money back?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]Excuse me. My question is very simple. When will taxpayers get their money back? When?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1550)[English]It's not a detail. It's a lot of money. Millions of dollars is not a detail, Minister.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsReimbursementWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper (St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC): (1555)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Robidoux, following the April 18 teleconference, what communications, if any, did you have with Ms. Wernick or Ms. Kovacevic between that date and April 22?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1600)[English]So you had some discussions or communications with them about Ms. Wernick's communications with Mr. Kielburger on April 19.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1600)[English]So you drafted a final—BenoîtRobidouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1600)[English]Okay, since I only have one final question, just to clarify, you did say you communicated on with someone in Minister Qualtrough's office respecting WE at some point. Could you elaborate on that?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1600)[English]Who in the minister's office?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1600)[English]Just to—BenoîtRobidouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1600)[English]I realize the time, but I would just ask Mr. Robidoux if he could produce that particular communication and any surrounding, relevant communications.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1600)[English]I assume so, but if it's not—WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming (Edmonton Centre, CPC): (1615)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madam Minister, for appearing today.Just for some clarity, did you or your office have any communications with WE Charity or the Kielburger brothers in the month of March?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1615)[English]The first time that you heard from them was to discuss this potential youth entrepreneurship proposal.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1615)[English]When you received this proposal from Mr. Kielburger or his staff, what did you do with that proposal? Did you forward it to any other offices? Was there any conversation with the PMO regarding that proposal?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1620)[English] Did you forward this program to any other department? Did you forward it to Finance, to ESDC or Youth, or to any other department?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1620)[English]When did you first find out that WE was being considered for the broader program, the student grant program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1620)[English]Are you not surprised that WE would have been pitching a program to you and to your office and then this other program morphs out of some other discussions? When you were at cabinet, was it not surprising to you that WE was also being considered for other programs?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1620)[English]Minister, given your portfolio, at those cabinet meetings did you discuss or advocate for expansion of the Canada summer jobs program—given its connections to small business and not-for-profits—rather than this volunteer grant program? Were you able to advocate for businesses at that cabinet meeting to maybe expand that program, the Canada summer jobs program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89472JamesCummingJames-CummingEdmonton CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/CummingJames_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. James Cumming: (1620)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Yes, Minister, we have talked. I'm still waiting for you to get that access out of their personal banking accounts announced for those small businesses, which hasn't happened, but I'll go back to the WE issue. The Prime Minister has stated that he pulled this and asked for additional due diligence. Given that there was the potential of students getting this job experience and that you had seen a proposal from WE, was there any discussion with your department whatsoever about due diligence on this program with WE? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Since March 1, did you ever have any communications about WE with Katie Telford?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Bill Morneau?MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English] Ben Chin?MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Did your staff have any communications with any of these people about WE?MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Can you confirm yes or no?MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Thank you.Elder Marques?MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Minister Chagger?MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]It's since March 1.MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]All of these were since March 1.MaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]No, I'm sorry. Let's start again. We don't have time for this. Hon. Mary Ng: All right.Hon. Pierre Poilievre: We'll start again. Since March 1, have you spoken, have you communicated or have you had communications either way about WE with Katie Telford?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Has your staff?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Please confirm to the committee in writing.Bill Morneau?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Ben Chin?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Elder Marques?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English] Minister Chagger?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Did your office share that proposal with any other office in the government?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Earlier you said that it did.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Yes, I know that. That wasn't the question. Did you share it with other ministerial offices?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Did they ever share it with anyone in the bureaucracy?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Which departments?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Okay. And with ESDC, PCO or Finance?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]All right.Other than this April 7 meeting with Mr. Kielburger, has your office had any other communications with the Kielburgers since that time?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestCorrespondence and lettersGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Did your office ever communicate with WE, or vice versa, regarding student service programming? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]Did you or your office communicate with WE, or vice versa, about any other program proposal, idea or initiative other than the social entrepreneurship proposal?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1700)[English]You claim that the social entrepreneur proposal was different from the Canada student service grant proposal. Previous public servants have claimed that one transitioned into the other, that the first was adapted into the second. Which is it? Were they two separate proposals or were they one that morphed into the other?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1705)[English]Was it transformed into a student service proposal?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1705)[English]All right.Did anyone in the PMO ever communicate with you, or you with them, about WE since March 1?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1705)[English]Did anyone in your staff ever hear from the PMO about WE since March 1?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1705)[English]Can you confirm that with them and get back to us?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1705)[English]And vice versa, did anyone in your staff communicate to the PMO about WE since March 1?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsOffice of the Prime MinisterWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillMaryNgHon.Markham—Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1705)[English]Only. Hon. Mary Ng: Only.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryNgHon.Markham—ThornhillWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, CPC): (1720)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Professor Tassé, for being here today. I found your opening statement just bang on. I think you've covered all of the right points. I wish I had more time so that I could go through them all with you.I want to start with conflict of interest. You talked about how, essentially, because of the pandemic, the procurement rules that would normally apply did not apply. For reasons of speed, the government felt it was necessary to get these programs out the door. Wouldn't that be all the more reason for politicians in positions of authority, having a fiduciary duty, to make sure they were not in conflict with the Conflict of Interest Act?For example, the Prime Minister recognized, in his testimony, that there were potential conflicts, but he chose not to recuse himself from discussion, decision, debate or even a vote in cabinet. The finance minister, we also know, has had similar problems, and he later came out and apologized.What do you make of the fact that they did not recuse themselves in this case?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsRecusalsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMarcTassé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1725)[English]On that point, actually, I'm glad you mentioned the word “perceived”. Professor Arthur Schafer, from the University of Manitoba law school—he's a professor of ethics—wrote a piece in The Globe and Mail recently, and there's a very on-point paragraph in his article. I'm going to read it to you. It says: Conflict of interest does not require that bias actually occur, only that there is reason to fear that bias may be present. The risk of bias, not the exercise of bias, is what makes both our imaginary scenario and the WE Charity imbroglio real conflicts of interest. Essentially, I think what he's saying is that even the perception of a conflict of interest should have been enough for both the Prime Minister and the finance minister to recuse themselves in all manner required under the Conflict of Interest Act.Would you agree with Professor Schafer's assessment?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsRecusalsWE CharityMarcTasséMarcTassé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1725)[English] I note from your bio that you have some experience dealing with non-profit organizations. One of the peculiar things about this whole scandal is the fact that ultimately the government signed a contract with an organization that had no track record at all in terms of being able to administer that program. I think it falls also under the issue of due diligence. What do you make of this, that the contract got signed with WE Charity Foundation? WE says they signed it with that company to limit their liability, but doesn't that speak to the lack of due diligence in government, which you touched on, over this matter?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityMarcTasséMarcTassé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1725)[English]Okay. The cabinet ministers we had on earlier today claimed that when they were deciding this during cabinet committee, for example, they weren't made aware of the fact that it was going to be WE Charity Foundation. They weren't aware of the problems with WE's financial statements and breaches of bank covenants and those kinds of things. What is missing in this process where the public service either knew or didn't know, but if they knew, they didn't bring these huge red flags to the attention of the decision-makers?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMarcTassé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz: (1730)[English]Thank you very much.MarcTasséWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1750)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Professor Tassé, for your testimony. When you elaborated on the issue of due diligence, I jotted down some notes. I believe you cited four cornerstones, including who the beneficial owners are, the legal structure, the governance structure and a detailed financial analysis.Did I get that right?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMarcTassé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1755)[English]Okay. Thank you for confirming that. We've heard a lot of talk about due diligence, but when it comes to identifying the beneficial owners and the legal structure, the fact is that it was a real estate shell company, the WE Foundation, rather than the WE Charity. When we look at governance, we see that the board of WE Charity was in a state of chaos, with the chair of the board and more than half of the board resigning proximate to the time of the contribution agreement. Also, then, there's the fact that there was no understanding whatsoever of the financials and no understanding that the WE Charity had been in breach of their banking covenants. Could you not argue that this is a sort of textbook case of what not to do when it comes to due diligence?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityMarcTasséMarcTassé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1755)[English] Maybe you could elaborate on why some of those factors are so important. They seem self-evident, but yet, based upon some of the questions of my Liberal colleagues, who seem to minimize issues around due diligence, and the excuses that have been offered by ministers and in media interviews that I've done with some of my Liberal colleagues, these things consistently are downplayed. Instead, they cite the contribution agreement. They note that there's a right to audit. They note that there's an indemnification clause. They note that there's an insurance clause. They say that's all we needed to know. What do you say to that?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityMarcTasséMarcTassé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1755)[English]I would just submit, Professor Tassé, that your testimony has been very helpful. You correctly noted that you just can't hurry a contribution agreement—but I guess you can if it's a matter of rewarding your friends.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1805)[English] I do have a motion to introduce. I think my staff has just given you the notice of it.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1805)[English]All right. Thank you very much. It is as follows: “Whereas the Prime Minister shut down Parliament in March; whereas a modified and limited parliamentary committee of the whole has only met five times in the last two months, most recently today, August 12, 2020, from which the Prime Minister was absent to take a “personal day”; whereas his absence meant he could not answer questions about his $500-million grant he made to a group that had paid his family more than $500,000 in fees and expenses; whereas the Prime Minister has taken off 20 days in six weeks, meaning nearly half of the calendar days have been days off—”Absence from workIncome and wagesMotionsPrime MinisterReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1805)[English]Yes, it is.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1805)[English]It is, and here it is. It's that “The House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance calls on the government to suspend the Prime Minister's pay until he returns to work and takes questions in Parliament.”Absence from workIncome and wagesMotionsPrime MinisterReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1805)[English] Well, Mr. Chair, if I may, it does relate to the business of this committee because of the “whereas” referring to the $500-million grant to WE. That is a COVID grant that was authorized under COVID spending, for which this committee has been given the exclusive authority. Furthermore, pay for members of the government is a financial matter.The Chair: Mr. Poilievre—Hon. Pierre Poilievre: This is the finance committee, so it is very much in order.Absence from workIncome and wagesMotionsPrime MinisterReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin (Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, CPC): (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm always happy to see you again, today especially, since we haven't met in a few months. We've been through part of the pandemic. So I welcome my colleagues from all parties. I think it's important to greet each other in the halls and talk about what we've been going through in our ridings, where we have been very present in the last few months.Before going any further, there's something I'd like to check with the group. An amendment to the motion was distributed yesterday. Before we begin our discussion, I'd like to ask everyone to go directly to the notice of amendment, which encompasses the main motion.Canada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsMotionsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1205)[Translation]The amendment that was sent yesterday refers to the main motion, which was stated in the request of the four signatories.Would it be possible to seek unanimous consent of the committee to proceed directly to discussing the amendment to the motion?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1205)[Translation]In this case, Mr. Chair, I will yield the floor to my colleague from Louis-Saint-Laurent so that he can talk to you about the main motion.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm pleased to see you, someone I've sat with at other times and in another place, the Quebec National Assembly.Welcome to all my colleagues.The motion before us today refers to an urgent event, which is why we have called the committee members together. We believe that there is an urgent need to act, to understand and to hear from the key players in this situation involving WE Org. The motion reads as follows.That the Committee undertake a study of the government's decision to select a unilingual anglophone organization, with no presence in Quebec, to administer the Canada Student Service Grant;That the Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages, Melanie Joly, be invited to appear for at least two hours and before August 21st, 2020;That other witnesses include, but are not limited to:The Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, the Honourable Bardish Chagger;b) NATIONAL Public Relations;c) WE Charity;d) The Commissioner of Official Languages, Mr. Raymond Théberge.The reason we asked for these people to appear is the following. All Canadians are aware that when the pandemic occurred, emergency measures had to be taken and choices were made, sometimes quickly. We understand that. However, there were some ground rules that still had to be followed. We all know that for over 50 years, Canada has been a country with two official languages. Each of its policies must therefore reflect that reality. There's a reason that a minister's primary responsibility is to protect these two official languages.We have learned that the government decreed that a unilingual English organization with no presence in Quebec would be responsible for a contract worth more than $912 million. We aren't talking about a $16 orange juice, but rather a fairly large amount. So we want to understand what happened and why it happened that way. There is an urgency to act because the government is setting the stage as we speak and will soon be bringing forward other programs to help Canadians. We aren't against those programs, and we aren't against helping Canadians. Of course we're in favour of that, but it has to be done in a way that respects who we are as Canadians and as a country. We need to understand why the government rushed into this situation and how it happened, what steps were taken to get there and what steps weren't taken, so that this doesn't happen again. We're here to help the government not make the mistakes that were made in this case.That's why we believe there is an urgency, and we invite the government and the key players in this debate to come and tell us what happened. We want to give the government a chance to explain.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Canada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsMotionsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1215)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I don't know if my colleagues are aware of the events of the last 10 days. We learned that a public relations firm, NATIONAL, had been specifically mandated by WE Charity, without a call for tenders, to basically deal with francophone cases across the country and in the province of Quebec. So, we conclude that the organization is not in a position to assume this responsibility.We're not the ones saying it. Indeed, WE Charity felt the need to award a contract, without a call for tenders, to a private firm to look after Quebec and the francophone community. If these people were so good and so bilingual, why did they ask NATIONAL to take care of Quebec and the francophone community? They could very well have asked NATIONAL to help them do this work across the country.Earlier, the hon. member mentioned an event that took place in Montreal. I imagine she was referring to the one that took place at the Théâtre St-Denis on February 3 and which brought together 2,000 people. I just saw the list of speakers. One of them was the Prime Minister's mother. I say this in passing.Was she paid for this work and if so, how much? Is that part of the $350,000 given to the family?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1215)[Translation]I was just clarifying what the hon. member said earlier. She's the one who mentioned the events that took place and the fact that all the speakers spoke French. I am pleased to recall the presence of some of the people who spoke, including the Prime Minister's mother.If WE Charity is fundamentally Canadian, has roots in Quebec and looks after francophones, why did it ask NATIONAL to look after francophones? It's precisely to answer this question that our motion asks that the people from WE Charity appear before the committee and explain why they asked NATIONAL to provide services. This would be a good thing, since we wanted to ask the people from NATIONAL why they accepted this task and what they did.I could quote Joël-Denis Bellavance's article published last week in the La Presse, but as a parliamentarian, I prefer that they come here and answer specifically the questions of my friend Mr. Arseneault, who I respect and appreciate. He's absolutely right when he reminds us that the francophone community doesn't just mean Quebec. I tip my hat to him and thank him for that clarification.We must determine why WE Charity awarded a contract, without calling for tenders, to a private public relations firm to look after Quebec and the Francophonie. If these people were so Canadian, so bilingual and so rooted in Quebec, they might not have had to do it that way.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityMarie-FranceLalondeOrléansEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.In fact, I'm surprised to hear the questions from the other side of the table. The committee has a responsibility to be vigilant about respect for official languages in the exercise of Parliament's functions and procedures. A number of issues have already been raised. The other side of the table is arguing that WE Org is bilingual. For our part, we're wondering why it needed to turn to a national organization to ensure francophone representation to Quebeckers or francophones outside Quebec. These are already questions that need to be answered. The study will enable us to obtain answers to these questions.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaJoëlGodinPortneuf—Jacques-Cartier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: We must not take exception to the fact that the premise of our notice of motion is misrepresented, quite the contrary.The fact is that WE Org was awarded a contract, supposedly by mutual agreement because it was the only organization that could provide this service in a country where there are two official languages. The members of the party opposite may not have realized that this organization wasn't bilingual, but the organization's representatives had the wisdom to recognize that they didn't have the skills to offer their services in French. So they simply gave that contract to someone else. However, if another firm had the characteristics necessary to provide those services in English and French from coast to coast to coast, and if NATIONAL could do so, there were surely several others.So what did the Minister do to protect one of the two official languages—French—in awarding a government contract by mutual agreement?That's one of the questions the committee has to ask, and I think it's a very legitimate one. We have to remember that our purpose is to allow the committee to make recommendations. Right now, we're in the midst of a pandemic. We've been living it for a while, and we'll continue to live it, but we don't know how long it will last or how it will go. There will be other programs; I hope the current government is creating programs to help Canadians. However, in the course of creating those programs, there may be other situations similar to this one.Our goal is to protect both official languages. In this case, it's French, but in another case, it could be English. Understandably, there are fewer francophones in Canada than anglophones. That's why there is an official languages act.It is very relevant that we act quickly by giving the committee the tools it needs to be able to make recommendations as quickly as possible, in order to protect the interests of anglophones and francophones.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityJoëlGodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63908BernardGénéreuxBernard-GénéreuxMontmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-LoupConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GénéreuxBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Généreux (Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, CPC): (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd just like to remind all members that the Minister of Official Languages, Ms. Joly, has mentioned several times that the committee is completely independent and that she even did so in the House of Commons.Once everyone is aware of this, we can make the decision to undertake a study as a committee, as we have done several times in recent years.That we don't like the premise of the motion is one thing. I'd like to ask Mr. Arseneault if he has a proposal to make. As I understand it, he is not bothered by the substance of the motion, but his premise is troubling. We could accept an amendment that would change the premise.It isn't a question of judging the motion itself and how it's written, but rather of bringing all the players together to really get the answers to the questions raised by the controversy about WE Org. We'll put the question to its representatives. Let them come out and prove to us that they are bilingual and capable of providing bilingual services across Canada. Unfortunately, it takes more than a website to do that.Mr. Arseneault, do you have a different premise to propose? We're open to the idea of an amendment to change the premise of the motion. We'd like our committee, which is independent, to go ahead and vote to undertake this study starting next week or on one of the dates mentioned by Mr. Beaulieu. We're not three days away. The date isn't an issue.Canada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsMotionsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong (Wellington—Halton Hills, CPC): (1230)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I fully agree with my colleague, Mr. Godin. I'll support this motion. It's very important that this committee study this urgent issue.[English] The government has maintained two things throughout this whole WE issue. The first is that the bureaucrats recommended that the government proceed in delivering this program through the WE Charity and that the government, the Liberal cabinet, were just simply passive bystanders in this recommendation and simply accepted the bureaucrats' recommendation. Initially, when this whole issue came up, Minister Ng's office, for example, said that she had not met with the WE Charity. It later came to light that she had met with them on April 7. Minister Chagger initially said that she had had no conversations with the WE organization, and then it later came to light that she had spoken with them on April 17. In fact, I think that came to light yesterday. The WE organization initially delivered a proposal to the government on April 9, well ahead of the cabinet meeting that took place later in May, a month and a half later. Then we found out that Minister Morneau's office contacted WE to rework the application, clearly working with them quite closely in order to produce this memorandum to cabinet and the proposal from the WE organization. This has all come to light and runs contrary to the government's assertion that it simply accepted the bureaucrats' recommendation. Then the second thing the government has maintained throughout all of this is that the WE Charity was the only organization in this country, including the largest employer in this country, the Government of Canada, the public service, capable of delivering this program. Then we found out in recent days that they couldn't deliver it to a quarter of this country's population, to the 25% of Canadians whose mother-tongue official language is French. I think this committee should be seized with this issue. I've sat on this committee for a number of years, and I can tell you, Mr. Chair, that we have been seized with issues far, far smaller than this. This is a billion-dollar program that was being proposed that would affect Canadians from coast to coast to coast, 25% of whom speak French as a first language. This program is of the scale of the road map for official languages that we've had ever since Monsieur Dion proposed the first federal action plan for official languages, called the “Dion plan”, some 15 years ago.That action plan was for a billion dollars, and we held, I think, easily dozens and dozens, if not 100, meetings studying those plans and coming up with reports on how to improve the next five-year action plan on official languages. Surely we can spend a few meetings looking at the impact on official-language minority communities and official-languages communities of a billion-dollar program that would have been be delivered by an organization that couldn't deliver it to a quarter of this country's population.For those reasons, I hope that the committee supports the motion and that we get some expeditious hearings on this to ensure that we protect French-language minority rights in this country.It's at times of crisis that our institutions are tested, and they either endure that test and come out stronger because of it, or they crumble. We've already had incidents during this pandemic where official-language communities are not being respected. We had an issue when Health Canada waived francophone, French language, requirements for health devices. It may be excusable because of the pandemic, but we have a responsibility as a committee to protect French language minority rights and majority rights in this country, as we do for other official-language minority communities in Canada.Therefore, I hope this committee supports this motion.Thank you.Canada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsMotionsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1250)[Translation]I would like a clarification, Mr. Chair.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityMarie-FranceLalondeOrléansEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1250)[Translation]Did Mrs. Lalonde say that we would start with this addition and that it would be followed by our motion, word for word?Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I had asked to speak before Mrs. Lalonde made her presentation.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]Yes, yes.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]You mentioned my name when you made a series of—EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]Four names were mentioned. My turn came after Mrs. Lalonde's. You said so, Mr. Chair. I don't want to contradict you, but this comes as a surprise. I cannot comment on what Mrs. Lalonde said before I analyze it.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]No. Actually, I don't want to comment on that right now.Marie-FranceLalondeOrléansMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation] I agree with you, Mr. Chair.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]I agree with the order.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]But I cannot comment on the amendment. I had asked for the right to speak before the amendment was moved.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]That's right.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]That's not what the Chair is saying, Mrs. Lalonde.Marie-FranceLalondeOrléansEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]Okay. I will discuss the amendment, Mr. Chair. I will follow the procedures.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]However, Mr. Chair, you will understand that I had asked for the right to speak before this subject was added. In fact, I simply wanted to go back to the objective of my colleague Mr. Arseneault. We both agree that the process of awarding contracts to third parties must be evaluated. There is already an obligation in the act. So he and I have the same objective in terms of how it is applied, even if we don't go about it the same way because we don't come from the same place. I agree with my colleague.Please understand: I do not want to go after WE Charity. Instead, we must use this situation to urgently consider how to adapt to it and how to equip ourselves to make the most of protecting the rights of both official languages.I find it interesting to do so today after yesterday's release by the Office québécois de la langue française, which is worried about the survival of French. Even the Premier of Quebec was talking about it in a media scrum yesterday, saying that he is worried about the results that have been made public.So I was going to move an amendment, but Mrs. Lalonde moved hers first. I have not analyzed it, but I am prepared to introduce my own.Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1255)[Translation]Mr. Chair, thank you for giving me the right to speak; I will come back later.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1305)[English]I have a point of order[Translation],Mr. Chair.EmmanuellaLambropoulosSaint-LaurentEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1305)[Translation]Mr. Chair, you asked me to speak to Mrs. Lalonde's amendment. I do not understand—Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1305)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I will be very brief.I will speak to the amendment to the motion that was moved by my colleague.Mrs. Lalonde, I think your intention is commendable. I sincerely appreciate it. Nevertheless, in my opinion, the amendment is not in order. Therefore, I will not vote for it because it is contradictory. In the last paragraph, it says, “That the Committee...hear from relevant witnesses and report back to the House on the issue”. In her presentation, Mrs. Lalonde said that the amendment is grafted onto the initial motion, which asks the Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages, the Honourable Mélanie Joly, to come and testify for at least two hours. You know my position on the next vote. I will not be able to grant the request.Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1305)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English] I'm not going to support the amendment either. I appreciate the member's bringing it forward, but I think it doesn't add to the original motion.Now, I fully acknowledge that the original motion is not perfectly worded—very few motions are—but I think we should stick with the original motion and proceed on that basis.Look, here's why I think this committee should be seized with this issue and proceed with a study over a few meetings on this issue. Parliament has essentially been suspended since March 13. When it has met, it has met for a few brief minutes before going into a special committee or committee of the whole. In those special committees, the House of Commons is not sitting; it's the special committee or the committee of the whole that's sitting, which has virtually no power. It simply has the power for members to ask questions, for members to give statements and for members to present petitions. The usual powers of Parliament—to present motions, to introduce bills, to hold the government accountable—simply aren't there. This committee, though, has an opportunity for us to hold the government accountable on this important issue.It's only a small slice, a $1-billion slice of a $231-billion stimulus package. However, the fact is that the government has been operating under extraordinary emergency powers, granted to it on March 13 of this year, and we have a job to do, as parliamentarians on this committee, to make sure that a portion of that money is being spent in the proper manner. In this case, we have a responsibility to look at exactly what happened to ensure that the other monies that are actually going out the door are being properly spent. The money hasn't actually been fully returned. There was $30 million transferred to the WE organization. As of the last news that I read, $22 million has been sent back and some $8 million is still waiting to be sent back.The heart of the matter is this: The government has maintained from day one that the WE organization was the only organization in the entire country, including the federal public service—some 250,000 strong—that could deliver this program. Increasingly it looks like that's a falsehood. Increasingly it looks like that's not the case. They clearly couldn't deliver it to official French-language communities in Quebec and official French-language minority communities outside of the province of Quebec. That's why they had to enter into a contract and hire a lobbying group to do that.It calls into question why this contract was let in the first place. It was signed on June 23 and backdated to May 5, even before the federal cabinet had considered it. We need to know why that was the case. It doesn't look like the government's story is holding up. It doesn't look like it had nothing to do with this: that this was all to do with the federal bureaucracy, which recommended this; that it wasn't involved in the early stages of helping to draft the proposal; and that it wasn't at all involved with creating this program and structuring it in a way so that WE Charity would get this program. It doesn't hold up that WE Charity was the only organization able to deliver this.It calls into question why this whole thing came to be. Increasingly, to me, it looks like the Liberal government and particularly Liberal ministers were out to help their friends and supporters out there, using the cover of a pandemic and the extraordinary emergency powers they have to do this. We cannot, as a committee, let the government get away with this. We have a responsibility, not just to the people who pay tax in this country but to the broader public, to ensure that there's good governance in this country and that we get to the bottom of this and hold the government accountable. That's why I think we should have a few meetings on this, why we shouldn't accept this amendment and water down this motion, and get to the bottom of this. We want to ensure we understand exactly why this contract was given to the WE organization, exactly why that was done, despite the fact that they couldn't deliver it to 25% of this country, to some nine million Canadians whose first official language is French.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1330)[Translation]Certainly.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1335)[Translation]No.JoëlGodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1335)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I wanted to table an amendment, but I will do so later.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1335)[Translation] Mr. Chair, we are not here to take WE Charity to task, but rather to find out what the government did to arrive at this decision regarding the $912 million. The Liberals may not know whether this organization is bilingual enough to manage the program, but WE does, because it turned to NATIONAL to solve its problems in Quebec and in the francophonie.We are therefore totally opposed to the amendment proposed by our colleague. Who would have thought that one day the Liberals would want to go after WE Charity in a parliamentary committee? Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1335)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I cannot support this amendment, because it is clear that WE is not in a position to offer this program in both official languages. It's in the contract, of course, but obviously they have to turn to another organization for their services.[English]It's clear that the issue here isn't whether or not WE Charity had the capacity to deliver the program in the French language. It's clear that they did not have that capacity. That's why they contracted with National. The issue here also isn't whether or not the contract signed on June 23, backdated to May 5, contained clauses that mandated the delivery of the program in both official languages. All federal contracts have those requirements as a basic standard. The issue here is “the government's decision”, and the amendment would eliminate those two words from the motion. The issue here is the government's decision. The government has said for weeks that the reason the WE organization got the contract was twofold. The first was that it was recommended by the federal bureaucracy, and that the Liberal cabinet ministers had nothing to do with it. It's come to light in recent days, even yesterday, that this was not the case. Liberal cabinet ministers were heavily involved in helping WE craft a second proposal to meet the requirements of delivering this program. The second thing the government has maintained, right from day one, is that the WE organization was the only organization in the country that could deliver this program. That's also clearly not the case. The issue here is not the capacity of the WE organization to deliver programs in both official languages. It's the disconnect between the Prime Minister's assertion that the WE Charity is the only organization that could possibly have been able to deliver this program and the fact that it couldn't. It had to contract out the delivery of this program to a lobby group, the National lobby group, that would deliver part of these services to 25% of Canadians whose first official language is French. That's the issue here, and that's the reason I cannot support the amendment. Thank you.Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1340)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I have an amendment to propose.Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1340)[Translation]Mr. Chair, we have been discussing this for quite a while now, and we have been sensitive to each other's comments.I will read the whole text as amended.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1340)[Translation]We propose that the Committee undertake a study on the government's decision to select WE Charity to administer the Canada Student Service Grant; that the Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages, the Honourable Mélanie Joly, be invited to appear for at least two hours before September 4, 2020.The reason why we are proposing this, Mr. Chair, is that, first of all, in response to what the government members have said, we are removing the reference to “a unilingual anglophone organization with no presence in Quebec”. We are sensitive to that statement and we are therefore acting on their concern.We are also responding to the concern of Mr. Beaulieu of the Bloc Québécois about the date. We are therefore pushing August 21 back to September 4.We are also proposing to add to the witnesses the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, the Honourable Bardish Chagger, the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez, President of the Treasury Board, the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, NATIONAL Public Relations, WE Charity, and the Commissioner of Official Languages, Raymond Théberge.We therefore want to give other ministers, such as Mr. Rodriguez and Mr. Duclos, a chance to come and testify and give their version of the facts about this event.Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1355)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.My thanks to all my colleagues.The motion reads as follows:That the Committee undertake a study on the government's decision to select WE Charity to administer the Canada Student Service Grant; That the Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages, the Honourable Mélanie Joly, be invited to appear for at least two hours between September 1 and September 11, 2020;That other witnesses include, but are not limited to:a) the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, the Honourable Bardish Chagger;b) the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez;c) the President of the Treasury Board, the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos;d) NATIONAL Public Relations Inc.;e) WE Charity; andf) the Commissioner of Official Languages, Raymond Théberge.Amendments and subamendmentsCanada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1400)[Translation]Regarding the date, I would like to make a counter-proposal off the record. We may find common ground quickly.As for adding, “the Minister and her officials”, I want to point out that the motion, in its current form, already allows for that, without it necessarily containing those words. The motion does say, “That other witnesses include, but are not limited to:”. That way, when the committee defines the list, it can add that if it decides to invite the senior officials of the minister in charge of official languages to appear.We could talk about the dates again. I think we will manage to find common ground.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1400)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would just like to clarify something.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityMarie-FranceLalondeOrléansEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1400)[Translation]I don't remember ever seeing a minister alone at the table. They are always flanked by senior officials. So I don't think it's necessary to specify that, especially as no limits are imposed.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1400)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We have an amendment, a subamendment, and so on, and I don't know what stage we are at, but I think we can reach a consensus on the dates. It would be at least two hours in September 2020. That's a fairly broad period or four and a half weeks. It encompasses Labour Day and so on. However, it does provide us with a deadline, so we cannot put it off indefinitely. Therefore, the committee would meet in September. I think we can find common ground on that and on the availability of ministers.Regarding officials, as the clerk specified earlier, when a minister appears before the committee, they are always flanked by their senior officials. I think we can reach our objectives. We have set aside the language that could be examined, not to say debated. We understand that. For us, the goal is to give decision-makers an opportunity to explain what led to this decision. Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1405)[Translation]Mr. Chair, as the saying goes, enlightenment comes when ideas collide. This is not called a Parliament for no reason. We have to talk to each other in order to understand each another. I think we have found an honourable common ground for everyone. Here is the motion.Am I saying it right?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1405)[Translation]We are talking about an amendment.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1405)[Translation]Just so we understand each other, I will read the amendment we are proposing, as subamended: That the Committee undertake a study of the government's decision to select We Charity/UNIS to administer the Canada Student Service Grant;That the Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages, Melanie Joly, be invited to appear for at least two hours in September 2020;That the other witnesses include, but are not limited to:a) The minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, the Honourable Bardish Chagger;b) The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez;c) The President of the Treasury Board, the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos;d) NATIONAL Public Relations;e) WE Charity/UNIS;f) The Commissioner of Official Languages, Raymond Théberge.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1410)[Translation]With the amendment?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1410)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Before going further, I want to thank all the committee colleagues. As my colleague Mr. Deltell said, we have managed to find common ground under these circumstances, and that's very honourable.Mr. Arseneault, you have frequently said that the committee was often unanimous and had a nearly perfect score. Even now, we are managing to agree. I commend parliamentarians of all stripes.I don't want to make a blunder with the clerk, but I must withdraw my motion.Is that indeed what I must do?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1410)[Translation]So I don't have to withdraw anything, and the process is compliant.Is that right?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1410)[Translation]Thank you very much for your cooperation, Mr. Chair and Madam Clerk.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63908BernardGénéreuxBernard-GénéreuxMontmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-LoupConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GénéreuxBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Généreux: (1410)[Translation]Mr. Chair, could we make sure we can hear from witnesses fairly quickly? We do have a pretty exhaustive list, although we set a deadline to be able to do it. In other words, I'm talking about proposing dates and witnesses without delay to the extent possible.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63908BernardGénéreuxBernard-GénéreuxMontmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-LoupConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GénéreuxBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Généreux: (1415)[Translation]Could you tell us....EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63908BernardGénéreuxBernard-GénéreuxMontmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-LoupConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GénéreuxBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Généreux: (1415)[Translation]Could you let us know until when we can add witnesses to the list?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63908BernardGénéreuxBernard-GénéreuxMontmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-LoupConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GénéreuxBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Généreux: (1415)[Translation]Could the clerk let us know when the cutoff is for adding names to the witness list, should we want to, as it is not restrictive?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63908BernardGénéreuxBernard-GénéreuxMontmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-LoupConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GénéreuxBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Généreux: (1415)[Translation]Yes.EmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/63908BernardGénéreuxBernard-GénéreuxMontmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-LoupConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GénéreuxBernard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bernard Généreux: (1415)[Translation]Madam Clerk would send us that date, right?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1415)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We are going back.... What is on the floor of this committee right now is the motion as amended. That is the motion as amended by Monsieur Deltell's amendment. That is what's on the floor. When debate collapses, we'll have the vote on that motion as amended.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1415)[Translation]Mr. Chair, the amended motion reads as follows: That the Committee undertake a study of the government's decision to select We Charity/UNIS to administer the Canada Student Service Grant;That the Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages, Melanie Joly, be invited to appear for at least two hours in September 2020;That the other witnesses include, but are not limited to:a) The minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, the Honourable Bardish Chagger;b) The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez;c) The President of the Treasury Board, the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos;d) NATIONAL Public Relations;e) WE Charity/UNIS;f) The Commissioner of Official Languages, Raymond Théberge.Canada Student Service GrantCommittee studies and activitiesCommittee witnessesGovernment contractsMotionsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1425)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I want you to know that you have my full confidence when it comes to the logistics of holding these meetings.Now, as my colleague Mr. Arseneault said earlier, it would be good if we could decide on the number of meetings. Currently, we have six witnesses. So we will need at least three meetings. We also need to plan for other witnesses. Are we limiting ourselves? We should agree to four or five meetings.In my view, four meetings would be fine. I do not know if my colleagues would agree.Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1425)[Translation]It will be to do the study, right?Canada Student Service GrantGovernment contractsOfficial languages policyWE CharityEmmanuelDubourgBourassaEmmanuelDubourgBourassa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC)): (1230)[English] I'll just ask the cameras to clear the room, please.Mr. Kurek.DamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): (1230)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. On a point of order, I would ask that the witness be put under oath.RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]Okay, so be it. We will proceed under that direction.Welcome. As you know, Mr. Shugart, we are discussing the motion that was passed on July 22 at this committee:That, pursuant to Standing Orders 108(3)(h), the Committee review the safeguards which are in place to avoid and prevent conflicts of interest in federal government procurement, contracting, contribution and other expenditure policies;Mr. Shugart, you have been asked to come testify today as you currently serve as the Clerk of the Privy Council. In just a moment I will give you 10 minutes for opening remarks, and then we will proceed to questions from members around this table.I would ask that we be aware of the time. I will interrupt and stop questioning at the [Inaudible—Editor] minute. Please bear with me. I do not mean to be rude, but certainly I mean to be fair and to use our time wisely.With that, Mr. Shugart, I would—Yes.Conflict of interestGovernment contractsDamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]I'm just going to suspend for one moment.(1235)(1245)RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1245)[English] I will bring the meeting back.Mr. Shugart, you have 10 minutes to give opening remarks. Then we will proceed to questions from the members.Yes, Mr. Gerretsen.RachaelHarderLethbridgeMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1245)[English]Sorry, Mr. Gerretsen, just wait for one moment.I understand, Mr. Fortin. Thank you.I will suspend. We still have an issue with the interpretation.(1245)(1250)RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1250)[English]We're ready.Mr. Kurek.RachaelHarderLethbridgeDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1250)[English]I'll withdraw the motion. It seems like this will take unnecessary time, so I will withdraw my previous motion.RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1250)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Kurek.With that, we will proceed to testimony from Mr. Shugart.Mr. Shugart, you have 10 minutes.DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1250)[English]Mr. Shugart, thank you very much.With that, we'll proceed to questions from the members. Our first round is six minutes for each member who is asking questions. Mr. Barrett, you may begin.IanShugartMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett (Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): (1250)[English]Mr. Shugart, I believe that the documents submitted to the finance committee would be useful for our study as well. Would you be able to provide them to this committee?RachaelHarderLethbridgeIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1250)[English]Thank you.You supplied those per the deadline to the committee. I understand they are being vetted at this time. Are members of that committee able to see the documents in the same state they were submitted by you?IanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1250)[English]The Prime Minister testified that he pushed back against your recommendation on May 8 before the cabinet meeting, saying that you hadn't ensured that i’s were dotted and t’s were crossed and that he demanded due diligence be done. Did that conversation happen electronically or in person?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1250)[English]Is there a recording? Would those meetings be recorded if they're by Zoom or by the Government of Canada teleconference system?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Thank you.Did the Prime Minister ask for hard proof that the public service could not deliver the CSSG? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English] But did he ask that question specifically? Because—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Yes.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Did he ask if, for example, the WE organization had a functioning board that was governing it?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Did he ask if they were in violation of any of their bank covenants?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Did he ask if their financials were in order?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Did he ask that you provide other options for organizations that could provide this service?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Was the question asked if this organization could deliver the program in both of Canada's official languages in accordance with the Official Languages Act?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]And was the answer that they were able to?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Are you aware that the WE organization was going to subcontract out 100% of the French delivery of the program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]You haven't seen media reports to the effect that they had NATIONAL Public Relations contracted as their sub to deliver in French-speaking communities?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]The Prime Minister said he wanted to make sure i's were dotted and t's were crossed in the two weeks between that cabinet meeting and the next. What due diligence would have been done during that time that wasn't done previously, up to that point on May 8?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]Sorry, I'm tight for time. I have one more question.When you appeared at the finance committee, you said, “the Prime Minister was briefed [on the CSSG] prior to cabinet meetings and on at least one other occasion discussing the development of the program, the options, the design features, etc.” That's a quote from you. What was the date Mr. Trudeau was briefed about program development and options?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English]That's time, thank you.Madame Brière, go ahead for six minutes.IanShugartÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1305)[English]I'm sorry, that's time. Thank you.IanShugartÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1305)[English]We'll move to Mr. Fortin for six minutes.ÉlisabethBrièreSherbrookeRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1310)[English] You have 10 seconds for your answer.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1310)[English]Mr. Green, the floor is yours for six minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English]Thank you.Mr. Poilievre, you have the floor for five minutes.MatthewGreenHamilton CentrePierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): (1320)[English]So the Prime Minister had no idea how the program would be delivered when he announced the program on April 22.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]“Later” came on May 8. At that meeting, was the Prime Minister's family's relationship with WE ever raised by anyone?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]No, I know that.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]Was it raised at all?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]You do not believe so.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]You were there.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]Did the Prime Minister ask, at that meeting, for evidence that the public service could not deliver the program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]Did he ask for any information about the financial state of the WE organization?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]Did he ask for any evidence that the organization had a governance structure?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]He effectively said that your public service did not cross t's or dot i's, and that you did not provide him with enough scrutiny at that meeting. What did you lack? What did the public service fail to tell him that made him “push back”, in his words?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]But they weren't—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]Well, he must have, because he claims—claims—that he pulled the document from the cabinet meeting. Mr. Ian Shugart: Yes—Hon. Pierre Poilievre: So he must have found a gap.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]Why not?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]Did he give you a list of due diligence that he wanted?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]There's a list?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]But he didn't ask about finances or governance, obviously, which would be necessary for an organization to deliver a program, and yet somehow he claims that he was seeking due diligence.Has the WE organization repaid the money it received from the government yet?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]It still has the money, as far as we know.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]The ESDC had carriage of the file, yet no minister from ESDC signed off on the contribution agreement. How many times have you seen a department do a contribution agreement with a funding recipient without the minister signing off?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]She's not with the ESDC, so she's not with the department that—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]When was she granted signing authority for this agreement?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]When did the employment minister decide not to sign either the MC or the contribution agreement?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1320)[English]I've never borne witness to a non-ESDC minister signing an ESDC contribution agreement and an ESDC memorandum to cabinet. It is bizarre that none of the ministers who are actually with that department would have been involved in either of those two submissions. Mr. Ian Shugart: But the—Hon. Pierre Poilievre: It suggests neither of them wanted to have their name on this.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Mr. Poilievre, that is time. You can give a quick response.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Thank you. We'll move on to Ms. Zahid for five minutes, please.IanShugartSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Shugart. We will move to Mr. Gourde for five minutes. IanShugartJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I, too, would like to congratulate you, Mr. Shugart, for 40 years of service. Bravo!Something intrigues me. Around the end of April, when you first met with the Prime Minister, how many scenarios did you present to him for delivering the Canada student service grant?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1330)[Translation]During the COVID-19 crisis, the government has introduced many initiatives to help Canadians, but where did the idea for the Canada student service grant come from? Was it a political directive or was it a response to advice from government departments to the Prime Minister? Was it the Prime Minister or cabinet that asked for this initiative?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1330)[Translation]Was it political will?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Shugart.On the same day the Prime Minister announced the initiative, the media informed us that WE Charity was already ready to apply.Were other organizations able to apply for the program? IS WE Charity the only organization that got the information before the Prime Minister announced the initiative?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1330)[Translation]WE Charity contributed so well to the development of the program that its recommendations and expertise were drawn upon. The program was tailor-made for WE Charity, and therefore, indirectly, only WE Charity was able to deploy the program, since it was tailor-made for it.By the way, this is a unilingual anglophone organization that could not deploy the program in Quebec, where it had no base. You used a third party to set up a program that uses a third party to deploy it in provinces where it has no base. Was it really due diligence to think that WE Charity was the only one that could deliver the program?The Prime Minister said that senior officials—and, indirectly, you—told him that it was the only organization that could do it, but it was the same organization that developed the program.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]Thank you, Mr. Shugart.We will move to Mr. Gerretsen for five minutes.IanShugartMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Thank you—IanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Thank you, Mr. Shugart.Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.IanShugartRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Thank you. That's your time.IanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Mr. Shugart and Mr. Fortin, that's your time. Thank you.Mr. Angus, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Mr. Angus, that's time. We're going to let that hang. I'm sorry.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]We're moving on to Mr. Kurek.You have five minutes.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1345)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Thank you, Mr. Shugart. I appreciate your coming and the forthrightness with which you started your testimony. Is it still reasonable to state that only WE could deliver this program, when it actually couldn't deliver the program in either official language and there were other issues with the program being delivered in different parts of the country?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]Yet the program is not being delivered. Specifically, regarding delivery, was there ever a question asked about whether or not WE could deliver programs effectively in rural Canada, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]Sure.Did you listen to the Prime Minister's testimony before the finance committee?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]Was there anything in that testimony that surprised you?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]On what date did the public service become aware that the Canada Service Corps was not able to run the program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]I do find that interesting, because if you have an organization with obviously limited capacity versus a new government program that has limited capacity, it seems like a non-starter, which leads me to my next question.I've read a lot of government briefing notes, but rarely have I seen a briefing note outline such a binary choice as the one that has been described to members of this committee and others. Is it common practice for the public service to provide a binary option to a prime minister or cabinet minister to move forward on a program of this scale, something close to $1 billion? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]So, if I'm understanding you correctly, it was either WE or nothing. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]Okay.Regarding all the third parties that the government reached out to in order to see if they could run the Canada student service grant, would you be able to provide the dates and details of all the contacts between the department and those various organizations? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that.In your experience, does the Prime Minister usually read the full briefing material he is given before an announcement or a decision is made?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1350)[English]Okay. I appreciate that.How often does the government make program announcements when they don't really have a general idea of how, when or even if they will deliver a specific program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1350)[English] Thank you.The floor is Mr. Dong's for five minutes.IanShugartHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English] Thank you, Mr. Shugart.IanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]Thank you.IanShugartHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]Mr. Poilievre, the floor is yours for five minutes.HanDongDon Valley NorthPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Mr. Shugart, you testified at the finance committee that there is no evidence that anyone in the PMO had been in contact with WE in the lead-up to the announcement of this initiative. The chief of staff to the Prime Minister has since contradicted you and said that at least five members of the PMO were in contact with WE. Can you give us their names?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]That's fair enough. Did anyone in the PMO communicate with anyone in PCO about WE in the period from the beginning of March until the contribution agreement was signed?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Is it possible that they communicated about WE with the PCO prior to the May 8 recommendation that public servants provided the Prime Minister, that WE deliver the program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Right, I think it is probable that we had political-to-public service communication before we got public service recommendations back to political.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Well, that's what we're going to find out.When did you first hear that WE was considered for this program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Do you have a date, just because we don't need to go—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Were you at that briefing? If I understand your answer earlier, you said you might have been there, but you might not have been, and you think you were, but you—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Were you at that one?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Well, it's just that this is a particularly important cabinet briefing. It's the meeting at which the Prime Minister claims he first learned that WE was going to deliver this program.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]But you don't know for sure if you were at the meeting.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]You believe you were at the meeting.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]This might have been one of those meetings that I wouldn't want to be at, and if I was there, I wouldn't want to remember it.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]Well, I am sure that there are occasions of that nature.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1400)[English]I can't imagine what you're referring to. At the same time, we have this story that the Prime Minister pushed back. You didn't mention that in your original testimony. Minister Chagger didn't mention it. No one else who was there mentioned it. I would think, if a Prime Minister, particularly someone who likes to box, were to put up his dukes and push back, you'd remember it. You probably would have gone home at the end of that day feeling like you had a rotten day, that the boss pushed back against you, but you don't remember having been at that meeting.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1405)[English]Right, we just can't get any sense of what due diligence they wanted or received. They knew nothing about the finances, about the board resignations, about the problems that WE.... They couldn't list the other organizations that were consulted, so it doesn't sound like they had any real—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1405)[English]Right, which would have been necessary to know if they could deliver it—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]That's time.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1405)[English]I would conclude, Madam Chair, if I may, by agreeing with Mr. Gerretsen. Mr. Shugart, you are an exceptional public servant. I think it is terrible the way the Prime Minister has thrown you and the public service under the bus, the way that he has implied that you and your organization are to blame. I want you to know—RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Mr. Poilievre, that's time.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1405)[English]—that Her Majesty’s official opposition does not believe it for a second.RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Thank you.Mr. Shugart, if I may, the original agreement was that you would be here until 2:00; however, due to technical difficulties at the beginning of this meeting, we got started quite late. Would you agree to be here until 2:30 today?PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Mr. Shugart, that's an excellent answer. Thank you so much for accommodating us.IanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]I will get you out of here no later than 2:30.IanShugartMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Yes, Mr. Gerretsen.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]This doesn't sound like a point of order.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Mr. Angus.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]We'll be moving forward at this time.Mrs. Shanahan, the floor is yours for five minutes.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]You can give a very brief answer.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]Thank you.Madam Gaudreau, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.IanShugartMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English] Mr. Angus, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English]Mr. Angus.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English]It's time. Sorry. Thank you.I have to give the floor to Mr. Barrett for two and a half minutes. This will be our final round: Conservatives, Liberals, Bloc Québécois and then the NDP. Again, two and a half minutes, Mr. Barrett.IanShugartMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1415)[English]What was the total value of the contribution agreement?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1415)[English] It's been said a few times that the process failed, that there are lessons to be learned, but there also have to be accountability measures in place. This was by no means a success. Who bears the responsibility for this program not launching? Who is responsible for this program? It was deemed vital during an important time, worth nearly $1 billion, brought forward to cabinet and received that approval. The contribution agreement was signed, and today we have nothing. Money's been spent; it's not been returned to the taxpayer. Who's responsible for that?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1420)[English]And that was as a result, in the Prime Minister's words, of his failure to recuse himself from this process. Those were his words in his testimony. To follow up on Mr. Poilievre's earlier comments, I also don't support the notion that this is the fault of the public service. I think that cabinet made a decision, cabinet accepted the recommendation of the public service, and I think cabinet members are responsible for this decision. We've heard parsing from some members of the committee about whether or not something was in bounds or out of bounds with the Conflict of Interest Act. Something being disclosed is simply not enough for it being in the public domain. The act requires that there's a disclosure to the commissioner's office. The act requires formal recusal when there's not a screen set up.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityIanShugartRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]Mr. Barrett, that's your time. Thank you.The floor is now Mr. Dong's for two and a half minutes.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]Thank you.We'll move on to Madame Gaudreau for two and a half minutes.HanDongDon Valley NorthMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English] I'm sorry. Your time is up.The floor is Mr. Angus's for two and a half minutes.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]Mr. Angus, that's your time. Thank you.Mr. Shugart, during the questions that were asked today, there were two pieces of information that were brought up and that I believe you will get back to this committee. One is information regarding whether or not the money has been paid back from WE and, two is as to whether or not you were at the briefing meeting on May 8. If you could get back to the committee with that information, it would be much appreciated. Thank you.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayIanShugart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English]Mr. Shugart, thank you so much for giving us your time today. We hope that you have a good rest of your day.With that, we're suspended.(1430)(1435)IanShugartRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English] I'll ask everyone to take their seats. We will get started. Thank you.Minister Chagger, welcome.RachaelHarderLethbridgeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]As you're aware, a motion was passed by this committee on July 22: That, pursuant to Standing Orders 108(3)(h), the Committee review the safeguards which are in place to avoid and prevent conflicts of interest in federal government procurement, contracting, granting, contribution and other expenditure policies;Minister Chagger, you've been asked to present to this committee and to answer any questions that come from the members today in regard to the motion that I just read aloud. Minister Chagger, in just a moment I will give you 10 minutes for opening remarks, and then the members around the table will have an opportunity to ask you questions.I would ask that we all remain conscious of time. For the first round, each person will be given six minutes to ask their questions. As time approaches its end, I will try to signal to you, but inevitably I may have to cut you off. I'm not meaning to be rude, but we do have to run an efficient meeting.Minister Chagger, I will give you the floor for 10 minutes.Yes, Mr. Poilievre.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1435)[English]On a point of order, the Conservatives would ask that the minister swear an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you.RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]Minister Chagger, are you willing to swear an oath?PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]Thank you.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]Thank you, Minister Chagger. Mr. Angus.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]Mr. Angus, I cede your point.Minister Chagger, I would ask that you try to honour that, that your answers be about the same length of time as the question asked of you. Thank you.With that, we'll allow you to proceed with your comments.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]Thank you so much, Minister Chagger.We will begin with our six-minute round. Mr. Barrett, the floor is yours to begin.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English]Thank you, Minister.We just heard testimony from the Clerk of the Privy Council that you were given authority to sign as a minister for ESDC by order in council. Can you tell us on what date that OIC was issued?Cabinet ministersConflict of interestGovernment contractsRachaelHarderLethbridgeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English]Minister, have you, with the exception of the CSSG contribution agreement, used that signing authority as allowed by that OIC for any other program?Cabinet ministersConflict of interestGovernment contractsBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English]No, it's not for those, Minister, thank you, but with respect to ESDC, which was my question. Have you used it with respect to ESDC?Cabinet ministersConflict of interestGovernment contractsBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English] I appreciate that.How much money did the Government of Canada pay to the WE organization for the CSSG? We've heard a lot of different numbers, so I'm looking for the final number.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English]Okay.How much, specifically, was flowed, not theorized, but how much actually flowed from the Government of Canada to the WE organization?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English]Why hasn't the money been returned to this point? It seems odd. It's been quite some time since the program was cancelled, or that they withdrew, following the Prime Minister's announcement that he failed to recuse himself. What's the holdup?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English]No. If you can get back to the committee, though, with that information, it would be very much appreciated.My next question, Minister, is with respect to your communication with any member of the finance minister's staff or in their office or any Finance Canada officials between April 5 and April 22 concerning WE Charity, the Kielburgers, support for students and how the WE organization could provide support for students.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1450)[English]At the finance committee I had the opportunity to ask you some questions, Minister. There was a disparity between my question to you and your response. I asked if you had spoken with the WE organization about the CSSG, and you responded that no, you hadn't, but you had spoken to them, we later learned, in the time period in question. I believe the date was April 17.In that call, what details did you discuss with this organization? Was it about anything that would later appear in the proposal for the CSSG?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1450)[English]Okay. I'm tight for time. Thank you, Minister.Your signature is on the—BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]Thank you.Mr. Barrett, you have 10 seconds.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1450)[English]Your signature's on the funding agreement. It's backdated to May 5. Did you tell either of the Kielburgers or anybody at WE that they could start incurring expenses as of May 5?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English] Thank you.Mr. Dong and Madam Brière, you have six minutes. BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1455)[English]Minister Chagger, thank you.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Thank you.We're moving to Mr. Fortin for six minutes.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]It's your question.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Excuse me, Minister.Mr. Fortin, I am happy to call on you, but there is an order. I have to ask the minister to stop and then you have the floor.Mr. Fortin, proceed.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Mr. Fortin, I'm sorry; the time is up.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]The time is up.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordGinaWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Deputy Minister, I'm sorry, but the floor is not yours.GinaWilsonGinaWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Deputy Minister, please stop.GinaWilsonGinaWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you.GinaWilsonRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Mr. Fortin.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1505)[English]No, no.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Mr. Fortin, thank you.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you. You're done.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you.You're at seven minutes and 26 seconds, Mr. Fortin. I've been very generous with your time up until now, and I would ask that you respect that. It is up to the minister to answer the questions how she wishes to do so, and it is up to you to cut her off if you are not pleased with her answer.Thank you, Mr. Fortin.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]We are moving on.Mr. Angus, you have the floor for six minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Minister, I'm going to go to Mr. Angus now.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Mr. Dong—HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Mr. Dong, that's not a point of order. I'm going to proceed.HanDongDon Valley NorthCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Mr. Dong, it's not a procedural point of order. You are more than welcome to go and talk to the member after this meeting. If he is happy to show you the document, then he will do so.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Mr. Angus, I'm restarting the clock. The floor is yours.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Minister Chagger, thank you very much.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Mr. Angus, your time is up. Thank you.Mr. Poilievre, the floor is yours for five minutes.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Did the word “volunteer” ever get spoken in your 30-minute meeting with Mr. Kielburger?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Was it spoken, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Were you there?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English] Did someone else say it?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]No, that's not my question. My question is about whether the word “volunteer” was spoken.Was youth service mentioned?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Okay, so that's a yes.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Yes or no...?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Yes or no...?BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Minister, thank you. I do understand that, but the question that has been asked of you is quite simple. It is really a yes or no question. You need to respect the member who's asking you that question and answer accordingly. Thank you.Minister, yes or no?BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Okay, good. Now we're getting somewhere. This was just five days before the Canada student service grant was announced and given its name.Of course, that grant wasn't mentioned because it wasn't created at the time of your meeting, but did you speak about anything at all other than the Kielburgers' social entrepreneurship proposal, anything at all, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Did the Kielburgers know that the Prime Minister would make an announcement only days later, on April 22, regarding youth programming?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Okay, so you didn't know, even though you're the minister responsible for that announcement—strange.How many staff attended that meeting with you and the Kielburgers?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Yes. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Okay. Were there any officials?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]It was just a phone call, two people.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]That's fine. Thank you. Was there anyone in the PMO or the finance minister's office aware that you were having this phone call?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Did you take any notes?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]No, that wasn't my question. Did you take notes, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Okay. Did you take notes on your phone call, yes or no, for the fourth time?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]No, did you take notes with your own hand? That was the question. It's a simple question, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]But that's strange, because a moment ago you said that by the time you did this phone call or finished it, you were not interested in that proposal. Now you were following.... It must have been a different proposal that you were following up on.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]They're your words.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English]Let's not get distracted.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1515)[English] Okay. All right, so you decided you weren't going to pursue that proposal, yet you wrote notes to your staff and officials to follow up on that proposal. Okay. It's very clear. We're going to move on to another question now. BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]No, I'm asking my question. I didn't ask a question yet. She's had plenty of chances to respond, and I'm glad.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]On the next issue here, were you aware that the Prime Minister withdrew your proposal from the cabinet meeting on May 8, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]The WE organization had already begun implementing the Canada student service grant on May 5, three days earlier. Did you instruct anybody to immediately call WE and say, “Stop. The Prime Minister has pushed back. This program is not approved by cabinet; therefore, WE has to put its actions on hold,” yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]I'm sorry, Minister. We are out of time.I'm going to hand the floor over to Mr. Gerretsen for five minutes.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]On a point of order, Madam Chair, I do think that they should have a chance to respond, if possible.RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]Mr. Poilievre, you're putting me in a difficult position here.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours for five minutes.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]The floor is yours.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGinaWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]I will proceed with giving one question to the Conservatives and one question to the Liberals.A Conservative member can go.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1520)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The question is not about why the contribution agreement was backdated. The question is very simple. The Prime Minister claims that he put the entire WE program on hold on May 8. Minister Chagger, did anyone in the government, at that moment, direct WE to stop administering the program when the Prime Minister did that on May 8, yes or no?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1525)[English]That's strange.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]A Liberal member is next. Madam Shanahan, the floor is yours.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English] Minister, thank you.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]Thank you, minister.With that, we will draw this meeting to a conclusion, and I will suspend while we switch to our next witness. Again, Minister Chagger, thank you so much for giving us your time today.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]We will suspend.(1525)(1535)BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[English] Welcome, everyone. Minister Qualtrough, welcome.RachaelHarderLethbridgeCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[English]It's our pleasure. Minister Qualtrough, as you know, this committee passed a motion on July 22: That, pursuant to Standing Orders 108(3)(h), the Committee review the safeguards which are in place to avoid and prevent conflicts of interest in federal government procurement, contracting, granting, contribution and other expenditure policies.That is the motion that you have been asked to come and speak to today. In one moment, I will give you 10 minutes to give opening remarks. It is going to be a little bit tricky for me to monitor and keep time just because there are no visual queues. Bear with me. I may have to interrupt you, but I will certainly do my best to be polite when I do so. We would ask that you try to answer questions that are posed to you within about the same time frame in which they are asked. Those seem to be our COVID rules when we're using technology. With that, then, I will pass it over to you, Minister, and allow you to have the floor for the next 10 minutes.Thank you.CarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Thank you, Minister Qualtrough.We will proceed then to our first six-minute round and we have Mr. Barrett up first. CarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1545)[English]Thank you, Minister.First, were you ever asked by anyone in the Prime Minister's Office or any other official to be the minister responsible for the CSSG?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1545)[English]You mentioned your involvement on the COVID-19 cabinet committee and that's where this program first received approval on May 5. Did you inform your deputy, your ADM, Madam Rachel Wernick or any officials in your department about the cabinet committee decision?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1545)[English]Did you inform anybody, or did your chief of staff inform anybody at the WE organization about this decision?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1545)[English]You said that on May 5, at that committee, it was the first time that you learned about the CSSG. At that time what was your understanding of whose idea this program was? Where did it come from?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1545)[English]Once you learned about it on May 5, Minister, what was your understanding of where it came from? Whose idea was it?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1545)[English] Okay.We heard testimony from the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Shugart, at the finance committee that the proposal for the WE organization to be the third party partner was recommended by ESDC.Who presented that proposal?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1545)[English]Minister, we heard testimony from the Clerk of the Privy Council, and it was confirmed by Minister Chagger, that she, by order in council in March, was able to sign, as a minister for ESDC. How is it that a nearly $1-billion dollar program was downloaded to a minister of state and not handled by you?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1550)[English]Okay, thank you.How involved were you in the development of the program since its inception?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1550)[English]Did you receive or review any reports or briefings about due diligence that was done on any element as part of the WE organization, WE Charity, WE Charity Foundation or any of their subsidiaries, before supporting this company administering a $900-million program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestDuty of careGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1550)[English]Thank you, Minister.We were told that on May 5 the Prime Minister's Office redirected a call from their office to your department, from the WE organization. I am looking for details about that call. Who took the call, what was discussed, are there notes, is there a recording, and was WE told that it could begin charging expenses or “eligible expenses” for this program at that time?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1550)[English]Would you undertake to find information for this committee?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1550)[English]Thank you, Minister. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]The floor is Mr. Dong's for six minutes. MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Thank you.The floor is Mr. Fortin's.HanDongDon Valley NorthRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you, Minister.Mr. Angus, the floor is yours for six minutes.CarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you.I am going to turn the floor over to Mr. Poilievre for five minutes. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1610)[English]On what date did Minister Chagger get the order in council powers to sign contribution agreements on behalf of your department?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1610)[English]I find it astonishing that you didn't know anything about the details of a billion-dollar program in your department until you got to the cabinet meeting where that proposal was presented. I was the minister in your department back in 2015. If a billion-dollar program in my department were going to cabinet, I would have known about it before it got there. Just to confirm, you knew nothing about the decision to give this program to WE until it got to cabinet. Is that what you're telling us?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1610)[English]That's an astonishing admission, that you would have.... I think it's political malpractice that the minister responsible for the department wouldn't have known about a billion-dollar program her department was administering. At the May 5 cabinet meeting, was anyone from the Prime Minister's Office present?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1610)[English]All right.When the contribution agreement to flow half a billion dollars through WE was signed, did you see that agreement before it was signed by Ms. Chagger?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1610)[English]The difference is that Minister Blair has a different department. This was your department. Your department's letterhead was on this agreement and, again, it's astonishing that the minister responsible for that department would not be up to date on a contribution agreement of this magnitude. We're not talking about a small $25,000 grant. We're talking about half a billion dollars and you've really got to ask yourself who is running the show in this government if the ministers responsible for a department don't even see the details of such proposals before the money goes out the door.You listed the things that this Canada student service grant was supposed to do: track hours of youth, train youth and so-call “onboard” them to organizations. The Canada summer jobs program does all those things. It delegates them through charities, small businesses and other groups. Can you name even one thing that the Canada summer jobs program could not do that the WE brothers could?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1615)[English]That's just false, because the non-profits that deliver the Canada summer jobs program across the country do all of those things. Every single year they hire young people, they train them how to do their jobs, they tell them the hours they're supposed to work, they track those hours and they file reports with all of that information. Everything you've just listed is done by not-for-profits through the Canada summer jobs program. The only difference is that it has a real word, “jobs”, rather than a fake oxymoronic term, “paid volunteer”. Really, you haven't given us a single reason the program that already exists could not have delivered what you were supposedly trying to accomplish with the Canada student student grant.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1615)[English]Your claims so far are not credible. The idea that the WE brothers' foundation was going to teach and train a young person in Red Deer how to do work at a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter from afar by email, Skype or something is simply not credible. Of course, that training would have happened by the local organization itself, just as it does with the Canada summer jobs program.CarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1615)[English]What would we have done that these organizations could not have done for themselves?RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Mr. Poilievre, thank you.Madam Brière and Ms. Zahid have the floor. I understand you are sharing your time. You have five minutes.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mrs. Zahid. The floor goes to Mr. Poilievre for another five minutes. SalmaZahidScarborough CentrePierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1620)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Robidoux, Ms. Wernick says that you were the one who first gave her the WE proposal. Do you remember that?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1620)[English]Yes.Ms. Wernick said that you were the one who first directed her work with respect to what became the WE proposal. Do you recall that?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1620)[English]Thank you.You gave the proposal from WE to Michelle Kovacevic, did you not?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1620)[English]Rachel gave you the WE proposal and you gave it to—Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[English]When was the first time you heard that WE might be the appropriate organization to deliver the Canada student service grant?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[English]Sorry, but we don't have a lot of time here. Not the new name of the program, but that WE could deliver the program—when did you first hear that?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[English]Right—BenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[English]Right, but when did you first hear that? I'm sorry. It's the same question again. When did you first hear the words “WE” or “WE Charity” as a potential delivery body? When?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[English] April 16. Thank you.Did you ever hear anyone else, other than Rachel Wernick, talk about WE before WE was publicly announced as the delivery body?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[Translation]That was not my question. I wanted to know whether you heard others suggest that WE Charity could implement the program.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[Translation]It could be before or after April 16, but before the announcement of the contribution agreement.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[Translation]Okay.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[Translation]Someone in the Department of Finance mentioned it. Who in the Department of Finance suggested WE Charity?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[Translation]You recall that it was someone in the department, but not who. Is that right?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[Translation]In your opinion, the idea of assigning this contribution to WE Charity came from the Department of Finance. Is that correct?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1625)[Translation]It was just a disembodied voice.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityBenoîtRobidouxBenoîtRobidoux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you.The floor goes to Madame Shanahan for five minutes.BenoîtRobidouxBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Minister, thank you so much for your time today. We very much appreciate your being with us and answering our questions. We hope you have a good rest of your day. CarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English] Thank you.I'm going to suspend for five minutes.We will then switch over to our next witness, Ms. Mary Dawson.(1630)(1640)CarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Ms. Dawson, it is so nice to see you.We are so thankful for your patience. Yesterday you waited during the 45 minutes of committee time and for half an hour before that. You gave us a good chunk of time yesterday, and we are certainly very thankful for your patience and also, subsequently, for your willingness to come back today. Ms. Dawson, thank you so much. We certainly owe you a debt of gratitude.Ms. Dawson, as you know, on July 22 this committee passed a motion: “That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h), the Committee review the safeguards which are in place to avoid and prevent conflicts of interest in federal government procurement, contracting, granting, contribution and other expenditure policies”.Ms. Dawson, you come here today at our request to speak to this motion, of course, with your expertise concerning ethics, as you did formerly serve as the ethics commissioner.We are going to give you 10 minutes for opening remarks. From there, we're going to give members around this table the opportunity to ask their questions.Ms. Dawson, I will do my best to be polite, but there may be times when I need to interrupt in order to bring a question round to an end in order to respect time and make sure that each member has an opportunity to ask their questions today.Ms. Dawson, without further ado, I will turn the floor over to you. You have 10 minutes for opening remarks.RachaelHarderLethbridgeMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Dawson.With that, we'll proceed to our first round of questions. It is a six-minute round.Mr. Barrett, the floor is yours.MaryDawsonMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1650)[English]Thanks, Madam Chair.Thank you, Madame Dawson, for appearing yesterday and again today. I appreciate that.RachaelHarderLethbridgeMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1650)[English]That's right. We're happy that you're with us today.I want to pick up on two of your comments. One is with respect to improvements needed under the act. Do you think there should be tougher penalties for repeat contraventions of the act, and if so, what?Conflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGovernment contractsPenaltiesMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1650)[English] Okay.What's your view of the word “friend” under the act?ComplianceConflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGovernment contractsMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1650)[English]No, that's quite all right. Thank you. I am familiar with your finding in the Trudeau I report with respect to the interplay of the Prime Minister's relationship and that of the Aga Khan, where he was ultimately found to have contravened the act for the first of two times. I understand in section 9 of the act, on furthering private interests, for example, there is a difference in how friends and relative strangers are treated. Is that correct?ComplianceConflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGovernment contractsMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1650)[English]In section 9 of the act, on furthering private interests.... I'm just looking to highlight the difference between how friends and strangers—ComplianceConflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGovernment contractsMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1650)[English]It is the difference between friends and strangers—MaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1655)[English]I have just about one minute left, so I'd say that, in the case you referenced in the Trudeau I report, invoking friendship was the defence to justify Mr. Trudeau's family receiving a luxury vacation as a gift, because gifts from friends are treated more permissively under the act. That's what I'm looking for your confirmation of. ComplianceConflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGiftsGovernment contractsMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1655)[English]Thank you.MaryDawsonRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Thank you.The floor is Madame Shanahan's for six minutes. MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Mr. Angus—BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Ms. Dawson, can you hear me right now?MaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]It's probably cutting out because we have a few members who are speaking to one another across the floor rather than through the chair. If they would speak through the chair, I think we could avoid that problem. I would ask, for the record, Mrs. Shanahan, whether you are directly quoting Mr. Conacher from yesterday.MaryDawsonBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]From Mr. Conacher?BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Yes, you have one minute.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you.I'm going to move over to Mr. Fortin for six minutes, please.MaryDawsonRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]We'll move on to Mr. Angus for six minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Thank you.I will start into our five-minute round now.First up we have Mr. Gourde.The floor is yours.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1715)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Ms. Dawson, thank you for being here today. You headed the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner for 10 years, and I can bear witness to that. You had an iron fist in a velvet glove and you always did excellent work.Philosophically speaking, when we look at what is happening today, we see that the work you did and that the new commissioner Mario Dion is doing does not seem to change public opinion a lot. Someone who is found guilty by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner should certainly lose an election, because being ethical is an essential part of the bond of trust with the electorate. However, when someone continually places themselves in a situation of conflict of interest and investigations confirm it, that bond of trust with the electorate does not seem to be broken.Whether the commissioner's office really does its work or does not actually give the results of its investigation to the electorate, it does not carry a lot of weight in public opinion. We saw that in the last election. The Prime Minister was found guilty twice, once about his trip to visit the Aga Khan and once with the whole SNC-Lavalin affair. However, people still voted for the current Prime Minister again. Most members in the House take this seriously, but the voters do not. That troubles me.Ms. Dawson, now that you have retired and you can look at this situation from the outside, does it trouble you?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1720)[Translation]Would you agree that a minister, a prime minister or a parliamentary secretary who was the subject of a serious investigation by the Commissioner's office as a result of legitimate complaints, should resign their position and become an independent member until the Commissioner's office has made its decision? At least they would not be a distraction for their party.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1720)[Translation]However, after a member commits a really serious contravention, is it possible that he may never come back as a minister?Cabinet ministersConflict of interestGovernment contractsMaryDawsonRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Mr. Gourde, that's your time. JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Thank you, Ms. Dawson.For another five-minute round, we're going to Mr. Dong and Mrs. Zahid. MaryDawsonHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Thank you so much, Ms. Dawson.I'm handing the floor to Mr. Kurek for five minutes.MaryDawsonDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1730)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you, Ms. Dawson, for appearing before this committee. I want to follow up on a question Mr. Dong asked. Does this current government have an ethics problem? I know the Prime Minister is now under his third investigation. I'd be very curious to hear your comments on the current ethical practices of the current government.Conflict of interestGovernment contractsRachaelHarderLethbridgeMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1730)[English]I appreciate that.I understand after the Trudeau Report, you had the opportunity to testify before the ethics committee and be asked questions regarding that report. I was quite astounded, as a new member of Parliament this past February, when members of the government voted against the current commissioner having the opportunity to come to share his findings on the Trudeau II Report before this committee.I'm wondering what your thoughts on that are and if you believe that the Ethics Commissioner should be able to report his findings before this committee?Conflict of interestConflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerGovernment contractsMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1730)[English] I have a few questions about your interpretation of the act. You made a statement to the media that reads, “One doesn't continue to do the same thing twice.” You then go on to say, “There seems to be a little bit of a blind spot or something there.” That was in reference to the Prime Minister's ethical behaviour. I wanted to read that into the record. Do you have any further comments on what you meant by that, in relationship to the current status of the WE Charity investigation and the various facets of that regarding both the Prime Minister and the finance minister? It seems like each and every day its scope is expanding. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1730)[English]How much time do I have left?MaryDawsonRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English]You have 30 seconds. DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1730)[English]I have a really quick question, then.Did you ever have cause to pick up the phone and refer a case, over your last number of years as Ethics Commissioner, to appropriate law enforcement officers such as the RCMP? Conflict of interestConflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerGovernment contractsInquiries and public inquiriesRachaelHarderLethbridgeMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1730)[English]Thank you.MaryDawsonRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English]Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours.DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1735)[English]Give a very brief answer, please.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[English]Thank you, Ms. Dawson.We're moving into a two-and-half-minute round. The floor goes to Mr. Fortin.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[English]Mr. Fortin.MaryDawsonRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1745)[English]Mr. Green, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1745)[English]Thank you.We're moving into the final round here, each for five minutes.Mr. Kurek, you're up first. MatthewGreenHamilton CentreDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1745)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Again, it's been very interesting, so thank you, Ms. Dawson.There are a couple of different topics I'm hoping to cover here, the first being gifts. Could free travel given to a family be seen to influence or advantage a minister of the Crown if that minister, for example, were given free gifts or travel by an organization?Cabinet ministersConflict of interestGiftsGovernment contractsRachaelHarderLethbridgeMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1745)[English]With your unique experience related to this, and with the understanding of the situation the current finance minister is in, and the paying back of the $41,000 the day he was set to testify before the finance committee, I'd be curious to hear your comments on his family's travel related to that, and that being seen as influence, his daughter working for the organization, etc.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1745)[English]Okay, I appreciate that.I want to touch on the friends issue. Again, you have very unique experience in that definition. Based on what you've seen and read in media accounts about the ongoing WE scandal, would it be your opinion that Mr. Trudeau would be friends with the Kielburger brothers?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1745)[English]I appreciate that, and I'm sure you've had a lovely time up at the cottage. As a prairie boy, I'm having trouble dealing with this Ottawa humidity in the middle of summer, but—MaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1750)[English]As a matter of general practice, if a public office holder were to consult the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, looking for some sort of blessing or approval on outside activities, would you normally use this opportunity to reiterate the public office holders' ongoing obligation to recuse themselves should the circumstances change or require it?Conflict of interestConflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerGovernment contractsMaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1750)[English] I appreciate that.May I ask how much time I have?MaryDawsonRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]You have two minutes.DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1750)[English]I do want to thank you as well. Although my time as a member of Parliament and your time as commissioner did not overlap, I've had nothing but tremendous experiences, whether it be in the annual filings, the onboarding as a new member or a number of the questions that I've had to make sure that I'm fully compliant with the Conflict of Interest Act. I have no doubt that your efforts as commissioner for that decade contributed to the culture that exists there, which I've certainly found very helpful.I have a question related to that asking of advice. When a public office holder consults you about a particular fact scenario, do you consider it good practice for him or her to follow up if there's a material change in circumstances?Conflict of interestConflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerGovernment contractsRachaelHarderLethbridgeMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1750)[English]I appreciate that. Certainly in my experience, the office is incredibly accessible, and it's encouraging that members of Parliament have that opportunity to have a continual conversation. I would hope that other members take advantage of that as we go forward.The real question here is a half-a-billion-dollar contract with what is a very close connection to the Prime Minister's family. In the remaining 60 seconds, I'd be curious to know if you have any additional comments you would like to share with this committee about the current ethical circumstances that we find ourselves discussing here, and the need for changes in the act so that hopefully these sorts of breaches don't happen again.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityMaryDawsonRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]Ms. Dawson, I'm sorry but your answer will have to be very brief, like 10 seconds.DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1750)[English]Thank you very much.MaryDawsonRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]We'll move over to our final questioner, Madame Brière, for five minutes.DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1755)[English]You can ask one more question.ÉlisabethBrièreSherbrookeÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1755)[English]Ms. Dawson, thank you so much again for being very patient yesterday, and then of course coming back and being with us today. Your time is much appreciated. We do hope that you get to enjoy some great rest at your cabin. MaryDawsonMaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1755)[English]That's good, excellent. Thank you so much.With that, I will officially adjourn the meeting.MaryDawson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold (North Okanagan—Shuswap, CPC): (1230)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Your expert testimony is valued by this committee.I want to start with Ms. Morton.Ms. Morton, you mentioned the Cohen commission and the Broughton Archipelago. The Cohen commission has 75 recommendations. Recommendations 18 and 19 clearly state that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans should prohibit net-pen salmon farming in the Discovery Islands by September 30, 2020—that's this year, next month—unless the minister is “satisfied that such farms pose at most a minimal risk of serious harm to the health of migrating Fraser River sockeye salmon.”In your opening remarks this morning, you said that it's not possible for the minister to make that decision. Could you expand on why the minister will not be able to make that decision?AquaculturePacific salmonSea liceKenMcDonaldAvalonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1235)[English]Is the sea lice issue the only reason that's holding the minister back from making a decision, or are there other factors? You stated that the minister will not be able to make that decision.AquaculturePacific salmonSea liceAlexandraMortonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1235)[English] Do you believe the proof of more than minimal risk is there?AquaculturePacific salmonSea liceAlexandraMortonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1235)[English]Okay, thank you.The government has promised legislation on an aquaculture act multiple times. So far we haven't seen any draft legislation or heard much about that. It would be interesting to hear from you what you think an aquaculture act should contain. What would it do to improve conservation of wild species and habitats and provide better regulatory certainty and consistency for aquaculture operators?AquaculturePacific salmonSea liceAlexandraMortonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1235)[English]Thank you. I have about a minute left. Mr. Snyder from the Spruce City Wildlife Association, has the wildlife association been a beneficiary of the salmon enhancement program in the past, and if so, how important was that program to the organization and the recovery or sustainability of salmon stocks?Government programsPacific salmonAlexandraMortonDustinSnyder//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88369RichardBragdonRichard-BragdonTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BragdonRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Bragdon (Tobique—Mactaquac, CPC): (1300)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, special guests, for your input and the perspectives that you all bring to the table today. I'd like to direct my questions to Mr. Pearce to start.DFO recently provided the committee with written responses to questions raised by committee members about the pinniped population in and on the B.C. coast. The DFO responses stated:The current harbour seal population is in line with historic population norms....Steller sea lion populations in BC waters have increased by approximately 4-fold since surveys began in the early 1970s.Do you agree with these statements?Pacific salmonPinnipedsKenMcDonaldAvalonKenPearce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88369RichardBragdonRichard-BragdonTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BragdonRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Bragdon: (1305)[English]Thank you.It is apparent that active management of pinnipeds in our Pacific region could be a valuable tool for conserving and restoring wild salmon stocks. Could you describe what a sustainable pinniped fishery should look like, if the purpose of the fishery is to conserve and help restore the wild salmon populations?Pacific salmonPinnipedsKenPearceKenPearce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins (Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC): (1315)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Alexandra, it's great to see you back at committee. I have one quick question for you, based on the comments you made on the switch to fresh water or non-salt water or closed containment.Would you like to see strictly land-based freshwater closed containment, or would you be satisfied with closed containment in a closed-containment pen on the ocean? What specifically do you think, and where do you think this needs to go?AquaculturePacific salmonKenMcDonaldAvalonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]You're not concerned at all, then, with any water exchanges. If they use a freshwater system, the same types of contagions.... A salmonid is a salmonid. If it affects the salmon population, it will likely affect the trout or the char population. Are you not worried about any crossover, or do you think those risks are much more manageable there than in open-net pens?AquaculturePacific salmonAlexandraMortonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]Is that the facility out by Port McNeill? Is that the one you're talking about?AquaculturePacific salmonAlexandraMortonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]Yes, I've been there. I've seen it. That's wonderful. Thank you for coming back to committee.I'm going to move now to Mr. Pearce.Mr. Pearce, what do you think, based on the testimony we've heard from other witnesses.... We've heard a number of them say that to have effective ecosystem-based management, where we manage all populations.... This is a typical wildlife management population strategy that all governments use at the provincial level for terrestrial animals. However, the Government of Canada, through its marine mammal protection act, puts marine mammals in a box and takes them out of the ecosystem-based management approach. If we're able to get back to an ecosystem-based management approach of all species in the food chain, what numbers are we looking at? Where do we need to go to restore some semblance of balance? What should our numbers for seals and our numbers for sea lions be? What would you recommend?Pacific salmonPinnipedsAlexandraMortonKenPearce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]No, of course not.KenPearceKenPearce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1315)[English]What would you say to political entities that scream and yell about the restoration of salmon but also scream and yell, “Don't touch the seals”? What would you say their net effect is on the salmon populations?Pacific salmonPinnipedsKenPearceKenPearce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Pearce.Mr. Snyder, notwithstanding the background that you see behind me, I'm going to ask you whether you believe anglers and hunters play a very important and vital role in the conservation of fish and wildlife species.Hunting and sport fishingPacific salmonKenPearceDustinSnyder//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]That's fair enough. I think you and I are always looking off the road when we're driving to see what we can see. I'm no different from you.I know there's—DustinSnyderKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]I want to talk about spawning channels, Mr. Chair. Nobody has talked about spawning channels yet.KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35897BlaineCalkinsBlaine-CalkinsRed Deer—LacombeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CalkinsBlaine_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blaine Calkins: (1320)[English]I appreciate that, Ken.I want to talk to Mr. Snyder, and of course to our good old friend Fin. It's good to see you, Fin.There was a lot of talk about hatcheries. Mr. Snyder, you mentioned that maybe there is no effectiveness for a large-scale hatchery in the area where you are, but maybe some of the smaller community-based hatcheries.... Fin, I think you would agree with that as well. There are also spawning channels. I'd like to get input from both of you, from your respective groups and organizations and the people you work with. If hatcheries are going to be part of a solution for restoring stocks, where are the opportunities for more spawning channels so that fish reared in a hatchery will have a better opportunity at an enhanced natural spawning channel when they return, if they get to return?AquaculturePacific salmonKenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsDustinSnyder//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1330)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll switch to Mr. Snyder, if possible.Mr. Snyder, you mentioned in your opening remarks that the dated coded wire tag program continues to be used by DFO, and I assume it's being used for DFO's assessment and return monitoring systems.Are you aware of the newer technologies and methods that could replace the coded wire tag system?AquaculturePacific salmonKenMcDonaldAvalonDustinSnyder//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1330)[English]Do you know why DFO refuses to retire the coded wire tag system and transition towards other, newer, better technologies?AquaculturePacific salmonDustinSnyderDustinSnyder//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1335)[English]Thank you.In the last few months here, I've had the opportunity to tour a salmon hatchery in the Okanagan system. That hatchery has enabled the restoration of sockeye salmon stocks into the Okanagan water system, which feeds into the Columbia, restoring those stocks for the first time in decades or over 100 years. Now they're actually able to migrate all the way up into Okanagan Lake. That hatchery was built on a small stream in Penticton. When I was there, they showed me what they called a hatchery in a box. It was a self-contained hatchery in a 20-foot Sea-Can shipping container. You mentioned that large-scale hatcheries aren't the way to go. Do you see an opportunity or a use for smaller, sometimes portable, hatcheries that could be placed on some of these streams that, as you mentioned, see only a dozen returns in a year to rebuild those stocks? Would those be a way to go? I understand Washington state in the U.S. has been using them, but DFO has really shown no interest or has been reluctant here in Canada.AquaculturePacific salmonDustinSnyderDustinSnyder//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1335)[English]Would these tie in well with the new identification systems, the DNA testing, so they could match parent fish to the stream they actually came from and make sure those eggs and fry that were being hatched out would go into that genetically specific stream type?AquaculturePacific salmonDustinSnyderDustinSnyder//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88369RichardBragdonRichard-BragdonTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BragdonRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Bragdon: (1340)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I just want to go back to Mr. Donnelly one more time, and I want to circle back to whether the Fraser watershed initiative is an initiative of the Rivershed Society of British Columbia. Is it working in conjunction with them?Habitat conservationPacific salmonKenMcDonaldAvalonFinDonnelly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88369RichardBragdonRichard-BragdonTobique—MactaquacConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BragdonRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Bragdon: (1340)[English]Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.I see that my colleague Mr. Fast is on the call, so I'm going to yield the rest of my time to Mr. Fast.FinDonnellyEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): (1340)[English]Thank you very much, Chair.Thanks, Mr. Bragdon, for ceding your time.Ms. Morton, I appreciate your passionate intervention. Your focus has been the fish farms. When I look through the Cohen commission's recommendations, I see a host of recommendations that the government suggests have effectively been responded to, but in fact that is not the case. If you had to pick two critical actions that the federal government could take beyond eliminating fish farms on the most critical fish migration routes, what would those two actions be?AquaculturePacific salmonRichardBragdonTobique—MactaquacAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1345)[English]Okay. You heard some testimony today about pinnipeds. You also heard testimony about hatcheries. Are these issues that you feel are critical and need to be addressed, or do you feel that they are secondary to the primary interest of yours, which is the fish farms?AquaculturePacific salmonAlexandraMortonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1345)[English]Now I'll ask a question of Fin, my former colleague. It's good to see you again. You and I have talked a number of times about the declining salmon populations on the west coast. Thank you for your interest in that.Just on the interest that you've articulated today, there are issues of mass marking of hatchery fish to allow for a mark-selective fishery. There are proposals for selective fishing gear. Are there additional actions beyond those you've mentioned that the federal government should undertake to address the declining salmon populations?AquaculturePacific salmonAlexandraMortonFinDonnelly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC): (1135)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses. I'm so glad that we're finally here and that we're finally having these hearings on Hong Kong. I wish we had started these hearings on Hong Kong months ago. We didn't have the support of the government to do that back in May, but this powerful testimony that we're getting, better late than never, will hopefully be a huge wake-up call to all of us here, to parliamentarians, to the government and to all Canadians. We're hearing from witnesses who have a great understanding of Hong Kong, who love Hong Kong, but who first and foremost are proud Canadians and are talking about threats to their rights, their freedom and their sense of security here in Canada.What I get from your testimony is that we're seeing in Hong Kong an attack on fundamental human rights, an attack on international law and a violation of China's commitments, but also really this unprecedented effort to formally seek extraterritorial jurisdiction over speech. The Chinese government now presumes that they can hold people accountable and they can prosecute people who are Canadian citizens for what they say in Canada. That should be a huge concern for all of us. Thank you for bringing that testimony.I want to zero in on some action items. One of the witnesses said that the committee should table a report with some specific recommendations dealing with the issue of Hong Kong. I would like to get feedback from other witnesses on proceeding with that. When we see the events in Hong Kong, people hear “concern”, “grave concern”, etc. and they just get sick of hearing “concern”. They want to hear action items.We have some good, specific action items, really four things that seemed to be similar across the witnesses: Magnitsky sanctions, which I think everybody mentioned; tough new legislation dealing with foreign interference, preventing Chinese state interference here in Canada; new pathways around immigration; and then proposals around diplomacy. I guess I will just put my questions together and maybe we can hear from all of the witnesses on them. Should we proceed with a report as a committee to put these issues on the parliamentary agenda? On the issue of sanctions, should we sanction Carrie Lam? Is that something Canada should follow up on? On the issue of foreign interference, it seems obvious to me, in a way, that we should have a zero tolerance policy for diplomats involved in foreign interference here in Canada. If you're intimidating Canadians and you're a diplomat, you should be sent home. We should end university co-operation with hostile foreign armies. It's crazy to me that we would have co-operation between the People's Liberation Army and our universities. Those seem like clear, simple steps that the Canadian government could take right away. I would love to hear feedback from all of the witnesses on those points.ChinaEconomic sanctionsHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1135)[English]Sure. How about we go in reverse order of the testimony?GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1140)[English]Ms. Fung, perhaps you can comment as well on my introduction and my questions.AileenCalverleyGloriaFung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu (Steveston—Richmond East, CPC): (1200)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for coming to the committee and talking to us about how relevant Hong Kong's situation is to Canada.Allow me to just play devil's advocate here a bit, because in the community, China has been telling through its mouthpiece that what happened in Hong Kong is purely a domestic issue and has nothing to do with Canada, and this is a Canada-China relations special committee, not a Canada-Hong Kong relations special committee. Therefore, since I'm asking as devil's advocate, can you tell me why Canada-Hong Kong is a critical part of the Canada-China relationship here? What is the relevance of what's happening in Hong Kong, and why should we, as Canadians, care?I'd like to ask the Canadian-based witnesses, ACHK, and then the Canada-Hong Kong Link, please.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1200)[English]Sorry, Chair.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1205)[English]Thank you.Go ahead, Ms. Fung.CherieWongGloriaFung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev (Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC): (1210)[English]Thank you very much.This is a very important conversation.I want to thank all the witnesses for the courage they've shown in coming forward to help us understand that this is not only a Hong Kong and China problem but is also a Canadian sovereignty and security problem, and we don't have the luxury of time. We must act with a sense of urgency, if I'm accurately appreciating and understanding what you're saying.To be able to provide recommendations to government, we need specifics. Ms. Fung and Ms. Wong have both identified the incredible importance to having legislation to combat foreign influence, not only around diplomats and other things but around academia, journalists, etc.Ms. Wong, could you give us some more information on the top universities that you highlighted—McGill, Waterloo and the University of Toronto—and their relationship with the People's Liberation Army and why that should matter? Ms. Fung, what specific legislation can we make to protect Canadian sovereignty and security as well as Chinese citizens in Canada and human rights and democracy around the world? ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCherieWong//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1215)[English]Thank you very much.I don't want to run out of time, so I would like to ask Ms. Fung to speak.CherieWongGloriaFung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1215)[English] Perfect—GloriaFungGloriaFung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1215)[English]Thank you. There's much more that you want to say, so please send us a document with additional specifics, because this is a very important aspect that we aren't collectively aware of. It would really help this committee in our recommendations if you could do that.GloriaFungGloriaFung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1215)[English]Okay.CherieWongGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1300)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses for coming to the committee to speak about the issue of Hong Kong and China in relation to Canada.As a newly elected MP, I was invited to go to Hong Kong on a district council election observer mission in November 2019, and we produced a report that had some positive feedback for the Hong Kong government. We were pleased to witness the exercising of democracy. In that district election, the people in Hong Kong came out profoundly and decisively on the side of democracy. As somebody who was born in Hong Kong and grew up in Canada, it is quite satisfying for me to see democracy in practice.Fast-forward to 2020, where we are today, and we see that all sectors in Hong Kong are under the dark shadow of fear, including the press. Through Apple Daily, for example, freedom of speech was jeopardized. The Foreign Correspondents' Club issued a very critical statement against the NSL and the arrest of Mr. Jimmy Lai. People could be arrested for singing certain songs or yelling particular slogans, so freedom of expression is also jeopardized. Their association with freedom of expression is also being harmed. They willy-nilly disqualify political leaders and even legislators, based on their opinions.There is definitely a dark shadow of fear being cast over Hong Kong. However, in Canada, and also in the rest of the world, I would argue there is also an opaque white fear that is being cast. We see that the Hong Kong NSL has also charged U.S. citizen Samuel Chu, who has been overseas for 25 years. He is one of their accused. I have constituents in my riding who presented a petition advocating that the Government of Canada exercise the Magnitsky act in sanctioning China or Hong Kong. He would be under the same cloud as well. What would you suggest Canadian governments do to safeguard Canadians' safety, regardless of their ethnicity? We know that in 2006 Uighur Canadian Huseyin Celil was arrested in Uzbekistan, but extradited to China. We also have the two Michaels who are being arbitrarily held. What would you suggest Canada do to effectively warn Canadian citizens?I've just checked the travel warnings on the Government of Canada travel website, and it's warning Canadians to exercise a high degree of caution. How do we know they would not get arrested? How do we know, en route, they would not get arbitrarily extradited to China?Ms. Richardson, Mr. Neve and Mr. Keram, please respond.ChinaHong KongInternational relationsTravel restrictionsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1305)[English]Thank you.SophieRichardsonSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1305)[English]Thank you, Ms. Richardson.Mr. Neve.SophieRichardsonAlexNeve//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1305)[English]Mr. Chair.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1305)[English]I understand.With your indulgence, may I ask the witness, Mr. Neve, to provide the report to the committee?GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas (Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC): (1325)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today, and I also thank my colleagues for being part of this committee. I believe this committee has an important role to play, particularly on this issue, so I'm glad we've restarted specifically in time to deliberate on Hong Kong.Mr. Chair, when I communicate, I try not to pick on the person but the policy. In this case, it's the underlying assumption that MP Fragiskatos mentioned earlier. Now, look, the Government of China has two of our citizens. I think it's very clear that it's hostage diplomacy, but we cannot allow ourselves, as Canadians, or allow our government to say that we will not pursue what is right under human rights or we will not do what is our heritage of standing up against bullies and tyranny when we're called upon. I'm just surprised at the response that Mr. Fragiskatos got from the gentleman from Amnesty International, which was almost a shrug of the shoulder and “I guess that could happen”. Do you not believe that the 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong—Canadians in foreign countriesChinaInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1325)[English]As I was saying, Mr. Chair, I don't want to make this personal, but I do think we're at a very important point as a country in our dealing with the Government of China.Do we not owe care to those 300,000 Canadians who are living in Hong Kong? Do we not also owe it to the people who have fought for human rights, democracy and a belief that we can get along when we work with others? Do you believe that, if we allow ourselves to be paralyzed with the thinking that we can't do anything in regard to sanctioning China or even whispering anything negative about the Chinese government, it may cause harm to those who have already been harmed and taken hostage by that government? I'd like your response, please. Canadians in foreign countriesChinaInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestAlexNeve//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1330)[English]Okay. I do appreciate you raising that, sir. I do believe your organization has done good work. It's just that I think we need to challenge this underlying assumption that if we do anything or speak out, we will be harmed as a country or as Canadians. That is always the threat, but I think it's a greater threat if we allow people to bully our country and our citizens, whether abroad or at home.Speaking to that earlier, sir, you mentioned that there are some things domestically. Our own security agencies, I believe, are quite attuned to the threats we're seeing to our citizens. You said there were some basic things that this government or previous governments did not put in place to check foreign interference. Could you elaborate on that?ChinaForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsAlexNeveAlexNeve//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1330)[English]I just want to make sure it's on the record, Mr. Chair. As a parliamentarian, I want—GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1335)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses.I want to start by echoing what Mr. Albas said on hostage diplomacy. I think if we go down the road of considering policy concessions in response to hostage diplomacy, then we just invite the massive expansion of that hostage diplomacy and we also limit our ability to ever do anything that's contrary to Chinese state interests. I would really encourage members of the committee to make decisions about what is right and what's in our strategic interests, and protect ourselves and not be victims to this kind of hostage diplomacy calculation.Mr. Neve, I was very struck by your comments about government inaction around foreign state interference. I look forward to the written follow-up on that, and I hope we as a committee are able to study that issue further and come out with specific recommendations. I know it's an issue that other committees, maybe the public safety committee but also the intelligence review committee, have taken up as well, the issue of foreign state interference and how that impacts Canadians, and their response.On the immigration piece of this, I'm very concerned that there's a risk that the Chinese state will take action to try to prevent immigration and to prevent the return to Canada of Canadian citizens. We've already seen some noises in this direction in the case of U.K. government policy and a response from China. What do you think the likelihood of that is? As we have called on the Government of Canada to have a plan for facilitating the reunification of Canadians, as well as dealing with the asylum piece of this, what could China do and what could Canada do in response to ensure that reunification and asylum can take place in response to countermeasures? Ms. Richardson, you could start, and then we'll go to the other two after that.AsylumChinaHong KongImmigration and immigrantsInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1340)[English]Yes, to zero in on that, do you think there is a reasonable risk that the Chinese government could, on a widespread scale, seek to prevent Canadian citizens in Hong Kong from returning home, especially if they travel on their Hong Kong status?AsylumChinaHong KongImmigration and immigrantsInternational relationsSophieRichardsonSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1340)[English]Okay.Mr. Neve, I'd like your comments on that, please.SophieRichardsonAlexNeve//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1340)[English]Thank you.Mr. Keram, in the time left, do you want to briefly wade in on that?AlexNeveGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1340)[English]The risk to thousands of Michaels is very poignant. Thank you.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1355)[English]My question is to Ms. Richardson, because I, too, find the cabinet-level position suggestion really critically important. Could you give us some more specifics about what your concept is, and maybe even go so far as to give it a title so that we can have a short-form discussion about what that might be?ChinaInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1355)[English]I want to explore that just a bit more.Would it be fair to characterize it in the sense that China certainly has a whole-of-country approach to achieving the objectives they're trying to achieve through the national security law, through the foreign interference, through the undermining of international multilateral institutions? We, then, in return should also have a whole-of-government perspective, where we're looking at it with a sovereignty, a security, an economic, an academic and a human rights lens so that we have that central point of contact so that we can understand the integration and the interdependence of all of those things and understand how they're working in coordination. Is that fair?ChinaInternational relationsSophieRichardsonSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1355)[English]That's fair.SophieRichardsonSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1400)[English] Could I say that it's not only legislation but also enforcement, policy and procedures, and civilian and corporate attitudes and behaviours? ChinaInternational relationsSophieRichardsonSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1400)[English]Please do, and I would ask, of course, for you to table it back to the committee.I sincerely thank you for all the research and homework that you've already done.SophieRichardsonSophieRichardson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC)): (1345)[English] I'm calling this meeting to order. As you are aware, committee members, we are here to discuss a motion that was passed at this committee on July 22:That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h), the committee review the safeguards which are in place to avoid and prevent conflicts of interest in federal government procurement, contracting, granting, contribution and other expenditure policies.As a part of this study, we are hearing from a variety of witnesses, including academics, ministers and others who happen to be experts on this topic.Here with us today we have Mr. Duff Conacher, who is the co-founder of Democracy Watch.Mr. Conacher, I'm going to give you 10 minutes for an opening statement, and then we're going to take questions from the members of this committee. You can go ahead.Conflict of interestGovernment contractsDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Mr. Conacher, I'm so sorry to interrupt you. Do you mind just holding one moment? We seem to be having a problem with regard to translation here.Mr. Duff Conacher: That's no problem at all.The Chair: I'm going to temporarily suspend until we can figure out the glitch that's taking place with regard to translation. Just one moment, please.(1350)(1410)DuffConacherRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English] I'm calling the committee back to order.Mr. Conacher, thank you so much for your patience with us. We sincerely apologize for the glitch.I'm going to put you on the spot here. I'm wondering if you would be able to accommodate us by staying with us until 3:15 or 3:30 depending on your schedule.RachaelHarderLethbridgeDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]That's perfect. Thank you so much.Mr. Conacher, I'll let you restart your statement.You have 10 minutes to open, and then we'll proceed with asking questions.DuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English]Mr. Conacher, please feel free to speak in whatever language you're most comfortable in.We have interpreters, so we're good to go.DuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]Mr. Conacher, thank you very much. Moving into our first round of questions, we have Mr. Barrett for six minutes.Mr. Barrett, please go ahead.DuffConacherMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett (Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): (1425)[English]Thank you, Mr. Conacher, for your comments and insights today. My first question is with respect to adding input to process for government decisions such as unsolicited proposals. Should these count as lobbying? Secondly, during your tenure, how has your organization looked at or spoken about charities with respect to lobbying?Conflict of interestGovernment contractsLobbying and lobbyistsRachaelHarderLethbridgeDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1425)[English]Thank you.With respect to the awarding of the CSSG to the WE Charity by the Liberal government, you've stated that key rules protecting democracy are being violated when it comes to this contract. Can you expand on that? What key rules specifically are you referring to?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1430)[English]With respect to section 9, the public service, the staff around the minister and the Prime Minister, were clearly aware of Prime Minister Trudeau's relationship with WE Charity. Do you believe that, given this awareness, both parties should have dropped using the WE organization as the administrator of this program?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityDuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1430)[English] I have just a couple of seconds left, so it's a quick question. What grade would you give Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for his adherence to ethics laws since being elected in 2015?Conflict of interestGovernment accountabilityGovernment contractsPrime MinisterReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinDuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English]Thank you, Mr. Conacher.Madam Shanahan, you have six minutes. DuffConacherBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]You have one minute left.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]Madam Shanahan, that's your time.We'll move on to Mr. Fortin for six minutes.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]Mr. Conacher, that's your time. Thank you.DuffConacherRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]I will give you the opportunity to ask one last question. Please be brief.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]Thank you very much.We'll move on then to Mr. Green for six minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1455)[English]Mr. Conacher, that's time. Thank you.We will move to our five-minute round.First up is Mr. Gourde.DuffConacherJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): (1455)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Conacher.As we speak, ethics in Canada has taken a serious beating—anything having to do with conflicts of interest, apparent or real, involving members of Parliament, ministers, even the Prime Minister. As Canadians, we are looking for the safeguards, but few, if any, exist.I'm going to tell you a little story about ethics. Fifty years ago, in my small municipality, the fellow who owned the local store became mayor. He sold the municipality a wheelbarrow and lost his job as mayor over $3.25. That's what you call ethical. Here we are, today, and the government is awarding $40-million or $50-million contracts. We are talking about the appearance of a conflict of interest. The word “appearance” is paramount, because what we're witnessing is the sponsorship scandal, version 2.0.If members of our government can trade in favours to benefit their families, either directly or indirectly, what does that say to you, a long-time and well-placed observer of ethics? Where is Canada heading, in the face of something like this?Conflict of interestGovernment contractsLegal loopholesRachaelHarderLethbridgeDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1455)[Translation]You really captured how Canadians perceive the government and the system. You called Canada's current system corrupt and unethical. It scares me to see the legacy that's being passed on right now. If those at the top are setting the example, Canadians just might cast ethics aside overall.In a democracy, especially ours, ethics is a hallmark of morality. It's paramount. No matter what programs are introduced and no matter what support we want to give Canadians, if everyone can apply for assistance, whether they need it or not, or cheat a bit to get ahead, someone, somewhere, is going to have to pick up the tab in the end. It'll be a very hefty tab for all of Canadian society.Do you think we can find a way out of this?Conflict of interestGovernment contractsLegal loopholesDuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Mr. Conacher, thank you.DuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Thank you, Mr. Conacher.I am moving on to Madame Brière and Ms. Zahid. You have five minutes.DuffConacherÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]You have 30 seconds.SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you, Mr. Conacher.Moving on to Mr. Kurek for five minutes, please.DuffConacherDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): (1505)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Conacher. I appreciate you coming to join us. I have certainly followed much of your work through my interest in politics over the last number of years, and I continue to now while having the honour to serve in Parliament.I'm troubled by the decision-making process that led to this whole series of events: the conflict, whether it is perceived or real; the throwing of the public service under the bus; and the, at best, misrepresentations—there are certainly other words that could be used to describe the actions of the Prime Minister and others—in how they've answered questions related to this. I'm curious as to your thoughts on the decision-making process that led to this and about your suggested changes that could be implemented to ensure that this sort of thing, first, gets exposed, so that we get all the facts, and, second, doesn't have to happen again. It's an abuse of taxpayers, an abuse of trust, and it truly damages the trust that Canadians need to have in their public institutions. Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1510)[English]Thanks very much. I'm wondering if you could outline just a couple of examples of what you feel appropriate penalties would be for violation of the Conflict of Interest Act once, twice and we're looking down the barrel of what could be a third time. I'm wondering if you have any comments on what those appropriate penalties could be. ComplianceConflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGovernment contractsDuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1510)[English]This will be my last question. The Prime Minister in the 2015 campaign talked a lot about sunny ways, transparency and all of these things. We saw a few virtue-signalling measures like public mandate letters and that sort of thing. Can you comment on any substantive changes that have taken place over the last number of years since the current government formed office in 2015, other than those very public attempts to make things look transparent?Conflict of interestGovernment accountabilityGovernment contractsDuffConacherRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]You have 20 seconds. DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Thank you, Mr. Conacher. Mr. Dong, you have five minutes. DuffConacherHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]You have 30 seconds.HanDongDon Valley NorthDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Mr. Dong.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Mr. Dong, that is your time. Thank you.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]I'm happy to allow an answer.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]You have five seconds.HanDongDon Valley NorthDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English] Thank you, Mr. Conacher.DuffConacherMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1515)[English]It turns out “better” isn't possible. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!RachaelHarderLethbridgeRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Moving on then to our final round, we have both the Bloc and the NDP, who will each get a 2.5-minute question, starting off with Mr. Fortin.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]You have 20 seconds.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]Thank you, Mr. Conacher.We will move to Mr. Green for the final question.DuffConacherMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English] You have 30 seconds.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]Mr. Conacher—DuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]Thank you.That concludes this portion of our committee meeting.Mr. Conacher, thank you so much for giving your time today. Thank you for your patience at the beginning. Again, we sincerely apologize for the glitch. We very much appreciate your taking this opportunity to share your thoughts with us. Thank you.DuffConacherDuffConacher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]Thank you, Mr. Conacher.With that, we will suspend. The committee will be called back for four o'clock to hear from our next witness.(1525)(1610)DuffConacherRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English] I will call the meeting to order. Mr. Czerny and Mr. MacDonald, we will just be one moment. Yes, Madam Shanahan.RachaelHarderLethbridgeBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you. Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Czerny, again, thank you so much for your patience. We appreciate you bearing with us. We will do our best to make good use of your time here today. As you know, this committee has undertaken a study that pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h), the committee review the safeguards that are in place to avoid and prevent conflicts of interest in federal government procurement, contract granting, contribution and other expenditure policies. You have been asked to come today and comment on this motion and answer any questions that those around this committee table would have for you. In just a moment, I will give you each 10 minutes for your opening remarks. We will then proceed to questions from the members. Of course all parties around the table will have an opportunity to engage with you.As you answer questions, I would just ask that you be mindful of time. The members are often trying to make it through as many questions as they possibly can, so efficiency is certainly of the essence.With that said, I will have to interrupt you once the maximum time limit has been reached. I don't do so to be rude, but just to keep us on track, so please bear with me. With that, Mr. MacDonald, I would invite you to take the floor with your opening remarks. You have 10 minutes. BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you very much for your time.Mr. Czerny, I will hand it over to you for 10 minutes.ChrisMacDonaldRobertCzerny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Thank you, Mr. Czerny.Moving on, we will go into our first round of questions. Each of the members has six minutes to engage with the witness of their choice.Mr. Barrett, you are first up.RobertCzernyMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1630)[English] Thanks very much. Thank you to both of the witnesses for joining us today.I'll start with a question for Mr. Czerny.You talked about the tone from the top and you said that leaders must demonstrate the highest ethical standard. You also talked about sanctioning actions that fall below the standards and that the standard should be higher than simply what is legally allowable. What do you believe appropriate sanctions should be for repeat offences or repeat violations of the act?ComplianceConflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGovernment contractsRachaelHarderLethbridgeRobertCzerny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1635)[English]Okay. Thank you.My next question is for Mr. MacDonald.You talked about the need for experiential learning when it comes to having an understanding of ethics and having an ability to follow those, so I guess my question is if an individual was found to have broken ethics rules and received a written report from the adjudicating body one time and then a second time, would you consider that to be a sufficient experiential background so that one would not further contravene those rules?ComplianceConflict of interestConflict of Interest ActGovernment contractsRobertCzernyChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1635)[English]Right.With respect to the matter that led to this study, which is the awarding of the service agreement to the WE Charity by the Government of Canada, in testimony related to that at the finance committee, Prime Minister Trudeau laid a great emphasis on the distinction between a conflict of interest and the perception of a conflict of interest, an actual conflict versus the perception of one.Gentlemen, one of you spoke to the harm that does to the trust that people have in institutions. Was that you, Mr. MacDonald?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityChrisMacDonaldChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1635)[English]Okay. What do you make of that distinction, when an individual says, “You know what? I didn't actually have a conflict. In fact, it was just the appearance of a conflict”? The implication there is that it's not serious.Can you speak to that argument?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityChrisMacDonaldChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1640)[English] In that case, would you say that once one becomes aware of the potential for a conflict or for the perception of a conflict, then in the list of steps that one can take—avoidance, disclosure, removal—have we now passed the point where we're able to avoid in that case? Is recusing oneself from a discussion at that point, once you've identified the conflict, the appropriate step to take in the list of steps that you outlined?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityChrisMacDonaldRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Give a very quick answer.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Thank you.Ms. Brière, you have six minutes.ChrisMacDonaldÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]You have one minute.ChrisMacDonaldÉlisabethBrièreSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Thank you.The next person is Mr. Fortin. You have six minutes.ÉlisabethBrièreSherbrookeRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]I'm sorry, Mr. Fortin. You have already taken almost seven minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you. We'll move on. Mr. Green, you have six minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]That's your time, Mr. Green. Thank you.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]I can appreciate that you're from Hamilton. I gave you an extra 20 seconds. Moving on to the next round, members have five minutes for questions, starting with Mr. Gourde.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My question is for both witnesses, so they can each answer, beginning with Mr. MacDonald.There's one thing in this whole affair that bothers me. When you run for office, you're telling Canadians that you're the best choice for them. Canadians are the ones who decide, but elected officials have a responsibility. That responsibility is even clearer at a ministerial level, because the decisions flow from the Prime Minister and ministers.The Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister knew they had a conflict of interest. They admitted that they should have recused themselves. They admitted to their mistake. The finance minister even repaid more than $40,000 because the media got wind of the story and he felt obliged to do so. He has some responsibility.What bothers me the most is that the Prime Minister pinned the blame on public servants. He said public servants advised him to make the decision he did. The Prime Minister seems to be forgetting that he is the one who should have made the decision. It was his responsibility. He is the one Canadians elected to make the tough decisions.This wasn't a tough decision, in my view. I'll give you an example of a tough decision. When we sent the military into Afghanistan, we knew there would be fatalities. We voted to do so in the House, knowing that Canadians would die because of our decision. That's a tough decision. Refusing to recuse yourself when you know that your family is in a conflict of interest and that you, personally, may have a conflict of interest is not a tough decision. It's a judgment call.Mr. MacDonald, did the Prime Minister deny his responsibility in the face of this easy decision?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1700)[Translation]Could the other witness please answer?ChrisMacDonaldRobertCzerny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1700)[Translation]Let's get back to my question.Generally speaking, senior officials provide advice to ministers and the Prime Minister, and to us, if we ask for it.With the tools and information they have, they do their best to explain the options available to us. This was a political decision, however. The decision was up to cabinet, including the finance minister, Mr. Morneau, and the Prime Minister. They didn't recuse themselves. When the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance are in favour of doing something, it's pretty hard for the other ministers to object.Was there really a conflict of interest or, worse, an abuse of power? Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRobertCzernyRobertCzerny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1705)[Translation] It's not the deputy minister's job to tell the minister that they have a conflict of interest. The minister should realize it themselves. If they can't see it on their own, then, they don't deserve to be minister. It's as simple as that. Ethics and conflicts of interest go to the heart of politics. Canadians put their trust in politicians. If that bond of trust is broken, our democratic system falls apart.Do you agree?Conflict of interestGovernment accountabilityGovernment contractsRobertCzernyRobertCzerny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English] Thank you very much.We're turning it over, then, to Mr. Dong, who is sharing his five minutes with Ms. Zahid.RobertCzernyHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Czerny.Mr. Kurek, you have the floor for five minutes.RobertCzernyDamienKurekBattle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1710)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.I appreciate both of our witnesses appearing before us this afternoon.I appreciate that Mr. MacDonald mentioned “trust” and that Mr. Czerny alluded to that as well. It's absolutely fundamental in the functioning of a society. Citizens need to have trust in their institutions and in the public office holders, because that affects every aspect of the information and the decisions they make. It's not just about a conflict of interest; it's the reputation of an institution that is incredibly important.Mr. Czerny, with your experience in the public service, I'd be very curious to hear your input. The excuse the Prime Minister has given is that the public service made this non-partisan recommendation, and they simply had no choice but to follow it. In my experience, that's certainly not how briefing notes are written. That's not how proposals are brought forward. I'd be very curious about whether you have any comments on the Prime Minister's defence that this was something that was totally hands off, that it was handed to him and that was that.Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRachaelHarderLethbridgeRobertCzerny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1710)[English]Sure. I appreciate that, and I appreciate the honesty.This question is for Mr. MacDonald. The Prime Minister has implied that he did not need to speak with the Ethics Commissioner because his wife was cleared by the Ethics Commissioner with regard to her work with WE prior to the fact. Do you think he still should have spoken to the Ethics Commissioner about WE and the Canada student service grant when he first became aware of it?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsWE CharityRobertCzernyChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1715)[English] I appreciate that.Mr. MacDonald, at the finance committee the Clerk of the Privy Council implied that there are some decisions that are simply too big for the Prime Minister or the finance minister, for example, to be recused on. I would be curious to know your view on that, and then I will ask the same question of Mr. Czerny.Conflict of interestGovernment contractsRecusalsChrisMacDonaldChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1715)[English]With your understanding of the ethical questions before us, regarding the questions around the Canada summer student grant, would you feel that this is one of those cases where it's just simply too big a question?Canada Student Service GrantCharitable organizationsConflict of interestGovernment contractsRecusalsWE CharityChrisMacDonaldChrisMacDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Mr. Kurek, I'm so sorry, that is your time.Moving on to the next round, we have Madam Shanahan for five minutes.ChrisMacDonaldBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Mr. Czerny, thank you very much.Moving on then to our last two questioners, Mr. Fortin, you have two and a half minutes.RobertCzernyRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English] Mr. Fortin, that's your time. Thank you.RobertCzernyRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Mr. Angus, you have two and a half minutes.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Mr. Angus, that's your time.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Mr. Angus, we're going to have to let that question hang there. I'm sorry.Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Czerny, thank you so much for coming and being with us here today. We appreciate your time. Again, thank you so much for your patience with us at the beginning of this discussion. With that, I'm going to suspend just for two minutes while we switch over to our next witness. Thank you.(1725)(1805)CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayRachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89200RachaelHarderRachael-HarderLethbridgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ThomasRachael_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1805)[English]Hello, everyone. We are going to go ahead and call for the adjournment of the meeting.The clerk is going to do her best to work with Ms. Dawson to bring her back tomorrow, if possible. If not, of course it will be for the next earliest time that we are able to.For now I am going to go ahead and adjourn the meeting, and I will see you back here tomorrow. Thank you, everyone.RachaelHarderLethbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59235BlakeRichardsBlake-RichardsBanff—AirdrieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RichardsBlake_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blake Richards (Banff—Airdrie, CPC): (1300)[English]Thanks, Madam Chair.Thanks, to all the witnesses. I'll say first, this industry is really hurting and obviously it is a critical industry for our country. I really believe that there should have been far more than one meeting dedicated to this critically important industry. Therefore, I'll have to apologize. With so many witnesses on one panel, I probably won't get the chance to ask you all a question, which is very unfortunate.Having said that, a few of you touched on this and/or alluded to it, but—SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSébastienLemireAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray (Kelowna—Lake Country, CPC): (1300)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess we'll start the clock.First, I just want to reiterate what MP Richards said regarding having one meeting. It's a real shame that we have seven witnesses today crammed into less than two hours, for such an important industry. I just want to comment before I ask some questions. We are hearing from an industry that annually adds more than a billion dollars to our economy, that adds 2% to our GDP, that employs almost two million people and that was the first hit, as we know. We've heard already that there are ongoing challenges and likely the industry will be one of the last to recover, so it's really important that the government put plans together. We haven't seen any kind of plan from the government specifically for tourism. We know that the minister has basically asked people in tourism to apply to Western Economic Diversification, which we've heard in the feedback is very onerous. It is not the same process as applying for the CEBA $40,000 loan. We know that people in tourism and a lot of organizations we've already heard this morning are not eligible for a lot of the programs. Diverting a bit of funding away from international to domestic tourism is not a plan.For us today, we don't have a plan for air travel, for seasonal tourism, for skiing, for agri-tourism, for sports tournaments, for events, or for arts, music, historical or cultural tourism. There really is nothing. I'm hearing from many people in tourism organizations that, frankly, they're feeling snubbed. It's really important, if we're not going to have another meeting, that others out there in tourism, if they're interested in having their voices heard, write to this committee at INDU@parl.gc.ca. When we put the report together for government, it will be very important to have a comprehensive report and that all voices have been heard.Now I'll go to some questions.I have a couple of questions for Mr. Vézina of the Quebec restaurants association. I noticed a survey on your organization's website stating that 61% of restaurants will not be able to maintain their activities beyond six months with their present conditions. I'm wondering if you can let us know today whether the federal government has reached out to your organization about any plans for anything specific for your industry to support the culinary tourism sector.COVID-19PandemicRestaurantsSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneMartinVézina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1305)[English]Okay. That's great. Thank you.In the Okanagan—and I'm sure it is the same in Quebec as well—our restaurants play a really important role for our local economy, including supporting local farmers and those making value-added products like cheese, condiments, and alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages.Mr. Vézina, could you expand on how specifically those types of related industries would be affected by our restaurant sector continuing to suffer in the long term?COVID-19PandemicRestaurantsMartinVézinaMartinVézina//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1305)[English]Thank you.I have a question for both Ms. Franc from the Canadian Association of Fairs and Exhibitions, and Mr. Roy from Festivals and Major Events Canada.Last week, Canada's chief public health officer, Dr. Tam, stated that, even with a vaccine, we may require two to three years of physical distancing due to uncertainty. Has the federal government reached out to you to consult on any plans or protocols to ensure that fairs, exhibitions and festival sectors can survive if this is the case? Ms. Franc, maybe you could go first.COVID-19EventsPandemicSocial distancingMartinVézinaChristinaFranc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105802TracyGrayTracy-GrayKelowna—Lake CountryConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GrayTracy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Tracy Gray: (1305)[English]Okay.Mr. Roy?ChristinaFrancMartinRoy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59235BlakeRichardsBlake-RichardsBanff—AirdrieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RichardsBlake_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blake Richards: (1325)[English]Hopefully this will be better. I ask that this maybe not count for my time, Madam Chair, so we can make sure that we're sorted here before I start.Is the sound okay?SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): (1330)[English]I just got thrown right into it there. Thanks, Blake.Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm going to start with Ms. Franc. My understanding is that the Calgary Stampede is a member of your organization. Is that correct?Business modelsCalgary StampedeCOVID-19PandemicSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneChristinaFranc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1330)[English]My understanding, based on the testimony that Mr. Roy prepared with regard to your proposal to the government, is that the Calgary Stampede would not be part of that ask, should it go through. Is that correct?Business modelsCalgary StampedeCOVID-19PandemicChristinaFrancChristinaFranc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1330)[English]Is your organization doing anything to advocate for groups like the Calgary Stampede? My understanding is that the differentiation between what you're asking for versus what the stampede would qualify for is that it has some fixed assets that it uses on an annual basis. Is that correct?Business modelsCalgary StampedeCOVID-19PandemicChristinaFrancChristinaFranc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1330)[English]The stampede is a marquee tourism event. Even though it has an expanded business model, virtually all of its events this year have also been cancelled, which has put it in a pretty dire scenario. Have you worked with the stampede or are you aware of any other groups that are working with marquee events like the stampede that are in this type of a business model but bring, let's say...? I know that, in the case of the stampede, it's close to half a billion dollars of revenue to Calgary.Business modelsCalgary StampedeCOVID-19PandemicChristinaFrancChristinaFranc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1330)[English]I just wanted to put on the record that, at a time when there's a lot of language from this government and special interest groups for my province to “diversify its economy”, events like the stampede and certainly tourism—I'm sure Mr. Richards will allude to this in his remarks as well—in areas like Banff have taken such a huge hit, and they are a big part of the Alberta economy. I think there needs to be recognition that Alberta is suffering in so many different ways, and there really haven't been a lot of voices advocating for marquee tourism events in the province. I know you guys are certainly advocating for the festivals that are in a lot of different rural communities, including those in my province, which is great, but I just wanted to put on the record that the stampede wasn't part of that ask.The next comment I'll make—I'm going to throw my notes aside—is that I've picked up on a theme among a lot of the presentations today, and that is that there is a lot of uncertainty in the industry and that's precipitating a few problems. First of all, I've heard—and I've heard this just in private conversations with other industry groups—that it's difficult to secure loans for tourism operators right now because of the uncertainty related to the lack of metrics around when border restrictions might be eased. I'm not advocating for that, necessarily, but there's a lack of metrics on what that would look like and under what time period.The other thing I've heard with regard to loans is that banks just aren't willing to backstop them without government intervention. I'm just opening up the floor for verification that that is what you're presenting, that all the witnesses here today are presenting this to the committee. Accommodation and hospitality servicesBanks and bankingCOVID-19LoansPandemicChristinaFrancSusieGrynol//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1335)[English]Thank you.SusieGrynolSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen (Red Deer—Mountain View, CPC): (1340)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.To each of the witnesses.... Like every other community across Canada, the tourism sector here in Alberta has been financially decimated by this pandemic due to the cancellation of rodeos, conventions, sporting events, iconic exhibitions and other tourist attractions. Our local community volunteer base is very frustrated, as is the local hotel industry. As the Tourism Industry Association of Canada pointed out from its recent survey, without immediate financial assistance many hotels and other tourism businesses will likely have to close their doors permanently. One of the things I have heard in my discussions with local hotel business people is “What can we do so that we're ready if this happens again?” Because shutting it down.... I know we had opportunities at the very beginning. We talked about using hotels to help with pandemic planning. I know it was mentioned earlier that that was something that had been done, but they want to make sure they're ready for it. For the Hotel Association, with regard to the activities that took place, how do we see expanding those so that our hoteliers are going to have a bit of an idea of how they might fit in if we have to go through this again?COVID-19HotelsPandemicSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSusieGrynol//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1340)[English] Thank you very much. I think that's really the point, but we'll be better prepared for it this time. SusieGrynolSusieGrynol//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1340)[English]I think that's the critical part.Speaking now to CAFE, as I mentioned earlier, the Alberta Association of Agricultural Societies is one of your members. Community volunteers are keeping our cultural heritage alive, and there is some serious frustration. Some of these events that have been going on for more than 100 years are in big trouble. I'm just wondering if you could speak to some of the discussions you've had with your members, so that we can look at how we can remain viable now and in the future, again, if something like this happens.COVID-19Farm tourismPandemicSusieGrynolChristinaFranc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1345)[English]Thank you very much.For my third and final question, perhaps, Mr. Grue, you could go through this.We know that a huge part of our nation's cultural landscape is the Canadian Football League. The CFL has been a big part of our national identity for over 100 years. With all the assistance that is going to other cultural icons, we just can't throw up our hands and abandon the organization that brings in hundreds of millions of dollars to communities every year. Does your organization see a role for the federal government to help support this iconic part of not only our tourism industry, but also our cultural heritage? Canadian Football LeagueCOVID-19Cultural heritageFootballPandemicChristinaFrancClarkGrue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1345)[English]Thank you. ClarkGrueSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC): (1355)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Before I am put on the clock here, how many more slots are there going to be in total? I think we have another colleague who was expecting to have a round as well.SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1355)[English]Okay. Thank you very much.SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1355)[English]Madam Chair, we can go to Mr. Richards instead of me first, and then I will take the last Conservative round.SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59235BlakeRichardsBlake-RichardsBanff—AirdrieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RichardsBlake_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blake Richards: (1355)[English] Let's hope the third time's the charm, Madam Chair.I will start by reiterating what I said earlier, that it is really unfortunate that there is going to be only one meeting, it seems, on this incredibly important industry for our country, and that we've jammed so many witnesses in it that it's hard to get questions to all of them. I do hope that any others in the tourism industry out there who are listening and who would like to have this opportunity will take the suggestion made by my colleague Tracy Gray and write to the chair and the clerk to request that opportunity, because it is incredibly important.Having said that, I have a couple of questions I'd like to get a chance to ask, and I want to get a chance to ask a few of you each of the questions. I'll start with the first question, which will be for CAFE or FAME, whichever of you would like to take it. The question is also for Meetings Mean Business and then TIAC as well. Hopefully there will be time for a second question to the Hotel Association and the Association Restauration Québec.I'll start with the first question. A few of you alluded to or mentioned in your opening comments the idea that the tourism industry is very different from almost any other industry that we're dealing with coming out of this pandemic, because of the fact that it was hit first and hit hardest and because it will have the longest recovery. Many of you mentioned the idea of next spring being that time, because of the fact that it's a seasonal industry in many places, and for things like events and festivals it means two years, essentially, without revenues. It is a very long period of time for a business to be able to sustain itself, especially when many of these businesses are small businesses or, in some cases, non-profits.It would have been better for me to ask this during the initial round, but because they alluded to it, I'd like to ask those three organizations if they could give us just 30 seconds each to explain just a bit more to those who aren't as familiar with the industry as I am or others who are on here why exactly the tourism industry is different and what the impacts are of the government treating the tourism industry in the same way it is treating other small businesses that maybe have an opportunity to either continue to carry on business in a different fashion or turn things back on more quickly. I'll ask CAFE or FAME first, and then Meetings Mean Business and then TIAC to just give us 30 seconds each to explain that to those who are less familiar with the industry.COVID-19PandemicSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTourismSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneChristinaFranc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59235BlakeRichardsBlake-RichardsBanff—AirdrieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RichardsBlake_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blake Richards: (1400)[English]That's great. Thank you.Mr. Grue.ChristinaFrancClarkGrue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59235BlakeRichardsBlake-RichardsBanff—AirdrieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RichardsBlake_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Blake Richards: (1400)[English]Thank you.Ms. Bell from TIAC, go ahead.ClarkGrueCharlotteBell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1410)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Before I begin, I want to give a notice of motion, which I will read into the record here:That, as part of its study on the Canadian Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic, the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology invite Daniel Therrien, Privacy Commissioner of Canada, to testify regarding the development and ongoing operation of the recently released contact tracing application.I will move to my questions now.This question will go to the Hotel Association or the Tourism Industry Association. Any of you can answer if you want, but I'm curious to know, as far as insurance in your industries goes, whether there have been any issues with that. In particular, I'm wondering about the business interruption insurance. Is there anybody who had applied for that or had that already in the suite of insurance packages that exist? COVID-19HotelsInsurancePandemicRestaurantsSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneSusieGrynol//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1410)[English]Is there anybody else who wants to chip in on that one as well?SusieGrynolCharlotteBell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1410)[English]Thank you for that.I'm going to move back to the Tourism Industry Association of Canada. One of the things we have seen from the federal government is some financial relief for the tourism industry. In particular, $46 million went to Quebec and the Maritimes, but in my province of Saskatchewan we received only $1.5 million for relief within the tourism sector. I'll just go over some numbers. The percentage of employment in Saskatchewan is 3.2% for tourism, which is actually identical to that for Ontario. That compares to Newfoundland, Labrador, New Brunswick and Quebec. P.E.I. and Nova Scotia are obviously higher on the spectrum than everybody else is. Why do you think it is that such a huge amount went out east but so little went out west?COVID-19PandemicRegional developmentRegional Relief and Recovery FundSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTourismMartinVézinaCharlotteBell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1410)[English]Right. Okay.I'm wondering, because I have companies like Treeosix in Cypress Hills Park; Harvest Eatery, a restaurant down in Shaunavon; and the Grasslands National Park, which are all award-winning businesses. As well, outside of my riding, up by Saskatoon, we have the Wanuskewin Heritage Park, where, for the first time in 150 years, a baby bison was born on ancestral land. The Saskatchewan tourism industry has so much to offer. It's not just an afterthought; it's something we're extremely proud of around here.When we're talking to these different industries, I'm wondering whether these people need to apply specifically to these RDAs, or what order works for them to be able to get funding or get a better demand for funding if there's such a small number coming from the RDAs themselves?COVID-19PandemicRegional developmentTourismCharlotteBellCharlotteBell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1415)[English]This is kind of going to my colleague from the NDP. He was talking about the Canada summer jobs program earlier. I have a lot of tourism-based businesses in the riding that specifically utilize that program. Is that something across Canada? Is it a vastly used program across Canada? I mean within the context of tourism per se.CharlotteBellCharlotteBell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas (Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, CPC): (1510)[English]You should hit “Participants”. Then it will open up another screen and it will say “Raise Hand”.JackHarrisSt. John's EastGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1510)[English]In the centre of the screen, you should see “Participants”. Right now I see one that has 26 participants. Next to the “English” button, or your language button, you click on “Participants”, and it will have a menu of all the people who are on there. At the bottom, I believe on the right, it will say “Raise Hand”.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1510)[English]Yes, at the bottom right.JackHarrisSt. John's EastJackHarrisSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1515)[English]Mr. Chair.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1515)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. As the subcommittee report clearly indicated, there were a number of former ambassadors, including Mr. McCallum, who were invited. I note today that we are going to be speaking with one of the invited guests.Could I ask the clerk the status of the other two?ChinaCommittee businessCommittee meetingsCommittee witnessesInternational relationsMotionsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestChristineHolke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1515)[English]Okay, so they've declined. Is it because they were not able to make it today or have they declined from participating completely? Could you elaborate?ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsChristineHolkeChristineHolke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1515)[English] Okay.ChristineHolkeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC): (1515)[English]Mr. Chair, I have a hand raised, but I believe Mr. Harris had his raised ahead of mine.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1515)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.In light of the clerk's response to Mr. Albas's intervention, I want to propose an amendment to the motion, that we add to the text of the motion “that Canada's former ambassador to the People's Republic of China, the Honourable John McCallum, be summoned to appear before the committee at a time, date and location to be determined by the chair and the clerk of the committee”. Amendments and subamendmentsChinaCommittee businessCommittee meetingsCommittee witnessesInternational relationsMotionsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1515)[English]I'm very happy to do that. I think it very much follows in the spirit of the proposal, given the witnesses that people wanted to hear from. The amendment is “that Canada's former ambassador to the People's Republic of China, the Honourable John McCallum, be summoned to appear before the committee at a time, date and location to be determined by the chair and the clerk of the committee”.Amendments and subamendmentsChinaCommittee businessCommittee meetingsCommittee witnessesInternational relationsMotionsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1515)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, we're in the middle of a vote. ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1515)[English]Mr. Chair, that's obviously not in order. ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsRobertOliphantDon Valley WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1515)[English]Mr. Chair, look, if the government members want to filibuster this, it's up to them—The Chair: Well, Mr. Genuis—Mr. Garnett Genuis: —but they've missed the window.The Chair: Mr. Genuis, you're out of order.Mr. Garnett Genuis: They've missed the window, Mr. Chair.ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1520)[English] You can't just—GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1520)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair—GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1520)[English] There were no speakers, but you know, you'd made a ruling—ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1520)[English]I think it's great. I'll vote in favour of that too. Amendments and subamendmentsChinaCommittee businessCommittee meetingsCommittee witnessesInternational relationsMotionsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1535)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Dr. Sangay, for being here and for staying up so late. Dharamsala is certainly a beautiful place to be.I want to start by expressing my support for everything you said in your opening remarks. I appreciate your challenge to this committee to put forward a motion or initiative expressing our clear support for the middle-way approach, facilitated through direct dialogue, and also standing up for religious freedom inside Tibet.It is amazing that we have an official atheist regime that also claims to control and know reincarnation. It would be comical if it weren't so tragic. I want to express my support for you on those points. I'm hopeful that this committee will be able to adopt motions to that effect, adding our voice to yours and to the voices of so many Tibetan Canadians, who I know raise these issues on a regular basis.You framed some of this discussion of Tibet as Tibet being kind of the first victim of CCP colonialism. I think it's such an important point for us to think about, that with so many of the techniques of colonialism, of elite capture and of control that the CCP is trying to deploy around the world, Tibet was the first case where we saw that happen.I wonder if you can just speak a bit more about Chinese state colonialism and also the implications that you're seeing for the Tibetan diaspora community, for instance with issues of Chinese state influence in Nepal and the implications for Tibetans in Nepal, and the intimidation and pressure that Tibetans face even in Canada, the United States and other western countries. What are the manifestations of that for the diaspora?ChinaColonialismInternational relationsTibetGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestLobsangSangay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1540)[English]Thank you.I wonder if you could also speak to.... You talked about some of the repression around natural resources and mining. We've heard suggestions at the human rights subcommittee around the issue of Uighurs and doing something about supply chains. What suggestions would you have around ensuring that our supply chains are not polluted by the abuse of human rights or that companies are not involved in supplying security technology that's used in the abuses of human rights?Agriculture, environment, fisheries and natural resourcesChinaCivil and human rightsDistribution and service industriesInternational relationsLobsangSangayLobsangSangay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev (Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC): (1600)[English] Thank you very much.Thank you so very much for being here, especially since it is so late. My apologies that I don't have any phrases in Tibetan, but I will say in English how important it is and how much we support you and Tibet in the cause. As you said, Tibet is the first casualty, and none of us are immune. We need to provide that support, not only to Tibet but also to ensure that we don't lose our freedoms in the same course as well.On December 19, the Americans passed the Reciprocal Access to Tibet Act. It required the Department of State to deny visas to Chinese officials involved in restricting access to Tibet for U.S. officials and journalists, etc. Could you speak to that a bit and give us an idea of whether or not, from your perspective, it has achieved the objective it was meant to achieve? Is it an effective tool and something that we, perhaps, should be considering?Agreements and contractsChinaInternational relationsPassports and visasTibetUnited States of AmericaGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestLobsangSangay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1605)[English]So from your perspective, it is the beginning of an effective tool.Agreements and contractsChinaInternational relationsPassports and visasTibetUnited States of AmericaLobsangSangayLobsangSangay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Dr. Sangay, I want to thank you very, very much for being here today. I have to say that you have a very impressive resumé, with your work in Asia as well as your studies in the United States and elsewhere, and of course your election as well. I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier about China's growing role in the United Nations. You touched on its infiltration of certain very key spots. One, of course, is its ability now to oversee some of the reporters and the investigating on the human rights file. How do you think this will impact Tibet and the hearing that Tibet has received both at the United Nations and in publications around the world?ChinaCivil and human rightsInternational organizationsInternational relationsTibetUnited NationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestLobsangSangay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1615)[English]Yes. We see that elite capture here. I know there's pressure afoot to have government officials who have worked on the China file to have a cooling-off period so they cannot immediately go to work for the Chinese regime once they leave government service, whether they are politicians or public servants. I think I have about a minute left here. Could you talk to me a little bit about what life is like on the ground in Tibet in terms of Tibetans getting news and transmitting that news? I know there's a problem all over China, where the state controls news outlets, but your people are folks who are looking for information and to get the word out. Do they get that information in Tibet? Can they share it, or does the state really close things off there as well?ChinaFreedom of the pressInternational relationsMedia and the pressTibetLobsangSangayGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1630)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I don't think Dr. Sangay will mind my doing this. Instead of asking him questions, I want to take this round to move a motion that reflects one of his asks. This would maybe take about five minutes and be a matter of consensus for the committee.I want to move the following: that this committee call for dialogue between the Central Tibetan Administration and the Government of the People's Republic of China with the view to allowing the exercise of genuine autonomy for Tibet within the framework of the Chinese constitution, and report this motion to the House.ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsMotionsSovereigntyTibetGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1640)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I think we need to be clear on the specifics of this motion. This motion is simply calling for dialogue between the Central Tibetan Administration and the People's Republic of China, with a view toward allowing the exercise of genuine autonomy for Tibet within the framework of the Chinese constitution. We're reporting this motion to the House. At a later date, absolutely, we would want to do other studies, because it is an important topic. Our next study is not this. Our next study, depending on what we decide, is on Hong Kong. We will look at other things as well. So for us at this moment to say that we don't have enough information or that we would need to do a further study to be able to call for dialogue—I'm quite concerned about that. I would like to ask my honourable colleagues to vote in favour of this motion. It does not in any way preclude us from doing further studies. It simply shows our commitment to the situation in Tibet by calling for dialogue.Thank you very much. ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsMotionsSovereigntyTibetGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]Mr. Chair, I will strike myself from the list. Ms. Alleslev made the points I wanted to make. GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, with the unanimous consent of the committee, I would suggest that, if there's agreement, we suspend discussion of this motion until after Mr. Mulroney's testimony. I think the issue is fairly straightforward. I do see value in moving forward with it today. However, if there's unanimous consent to defer discussion of this until after Mr. Mulroney's testimony, I think that will give members a little bit of extra time to reflect on it, if that's what they're looking for.ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsRobertOliphantDon Valley WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1645)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I can appreciate it, but he's clearly not wanting to table a motion, so let's just leave it on the table and let the process go forward. ChinaCommittee businessInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1705)[English]Thank you very much for an incredibly powerful and important conversation. I'm wondering if we could touch on your first comment around “powerfully placed” persons who are influencing us, in terms of policy to appease China. In your other remarks that you provided us, you identified that we have high-placed senior people who, through their connections, may have complicated the relationship with China. Essentially, we do have influence here in Canada.What can we do to be able to mitigate that influence or bring that influence into the light and protect Canadian interests, so that Canadians can have a clear-eyed perspective on the actual truth, as you said, about our relationship with China and the compromises and threats to our national security?ChinaForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1710)[English]Could you also speak to almost the inverse, where we actually have Canadian citizens, whether or not of Chinese background, who are being intimidated by the People's Republic of China right here on Canadian territory? What types of things could we do to protect them and also to put them in a position to provide the truth about our relationship with China?ChinaForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsDavidMulroneyH.E.DavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1710)[English]You make an excellent point about your concern around what you talk about as the courage of our policy-makers, both elected and senior public servants, to protect the national interest. What can we as a committee, as a society, do to encourage, inspire, and almost demand that our institutions have the courage to protect the national security interests when, perhaps, we haven't been able to do that up to this point as effectively as we need to?ChinaInternational relationsNational securityDavidMulroneyH.E.DavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1730)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Ambassador Mulroney, we actually met 20 years ago in your office in Taipei. I was covering the Taiwanese election there. I think that place remains the truest expression of Chinese democracy, and it's on display every number of years for the world to see that democracy is alive and well in Taiwan.I'm curious. You've had a long career in mainland China and Taiwan, and you're familiar with the area. Have your views evolved in terms of Taiwan? Looking back 20 years, and before that, how have your views concerning mainland China and Beijing changed over the years, or perhaps they have not?ChinaInternational relationsTaiwanGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1735)[English]I appreciate that and agree with that.You mentioned in your opening remarks that there would be an economic cost to a divergence from mainland China. I think that's true. Could you talk as well about the costs to Canada in terms of our values, and even economic costs, of continuing on the path we're on, where we're afraid to speak out and the prospect of more trade is more alluring to our business elites?ChinaEconomic sanctionsInternational relationsDavidMulroneyH.E.DavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71323JohnWilliamsonJohn-WilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestConservative CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WilliamsonJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Williamson: (1735)[English] You would agree, then, that a sheepish policy towards Beijing has only served to embolden them and to cause us economic difficulties, economic harm. China thinks that because we are sheep dressed up in sheep clothing, we will not do anything, and they feel they have the freedom to push us around.Mr. David Mulroney: Yes. It's always—ChinaEconomic sanctionsInternational relationsDavidMulroneyH.E.GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1745)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Mr. Mulroney, for your past service and your ongoing engagement. I've heard you on a few different radio programs, as well as on a podcast. It's helpful to have a plethora of different views here, because the Canada-China relationship has many different components, as China expresses itself differently under the current leadership.My concern is that you have made public statements in regard to the government and its interactions with you. In a Globe and Mail piece on July 24, 2019, you expressed the following regarding a request that was made to you by a public servant: “I am deeply concerned about the way foreign policy is being managed, and don't wish to be silenced or co-opted,” Mr. Mulroney said. He added any effort to discourage Canadians with expertise in foreign relations from speaking freely is “fundamentally an undemocratic idea.”I haven't heard very much from the government on this, other than it saying that no elected official caused that call to happen, but I'd like you to maybe take a moment to address that.ChinaCommunication controlForeign policyGovernment accountabilityInternational relationsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1745)[English]Have you had any similar conversations since?ChinaCommunication controlForeign policyGovernment accountabilityInternational relationsDavidMulroneyH.E.DavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1745)[English]I'm glad to hear that.In regard to vulnerability, you mentioned activities that are happening on Canadian campuses. Can you give an example, please?ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsDavidMulroneyH.E.DavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1745)[English]Okay. You said “intimidation” and, specifically, that the interference was done by the Chinese government, by consulate staff. Is that what you're saying?ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsDavidMulroneyH.E.DavidMulroneyH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1745)[English] Sure. Now, there's a lot of investment in our universities in order to create new innovations and intellectual property, etc. I have heard from some universities that have shown concerns about partnering with particular enterprises due to national security concerns. Do you think this is an area—ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesInternational relationsDavidMulroneyH.E.GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72029DanAlbasDan-AlbasCentral Okanagan—Similkameen—NicolaConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AlbasDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Albas: (1750)[English]Could he have just 30 seconds to respond?GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105511MartyMorantzMarty-MorantzCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorantzMarty_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Marty Morantz (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, CPC): (1120)[English]I'll be taking the first round, Mr. Chair.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): (1120)[English]There was a thunderstorm here, Mr. Chair.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE