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View Sylvie Bérubé Profile
BQ (QC)
In December, I received the answer to one of my written questions concerning the implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's calls to action 81 and 82.
In its answer, the government told us that only 0.5% full-time equivalent position was assigned to implementing call to action 82, which, we will recall, involves building a monument to the memory of the victims of indigenous residential schools, in Ottawa.
I will ask the question again that I asked the other day. Do you not think that this is insufficient for implementing that call to action?
View Marc Miller Profile
Lib. (QC)
Once again, that falls within the mandate of the Department of Canadian Heritage or the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs.
Obviously, we all want things to go faster, given the events of recent weeks.
View Sylvie Bérubé Profile
BQ (QC)
I have with me the government's response to my question. I'll read an excerpt: “Designation of a site will be undertaken once subsidies are provided to build this monument. As it is likely that a national monument would be constructed on federal lands in the capital, no purchase of land is envisioned at this time.”
Am I to understand that the government hasn't planned any subsidies for the construction of the monument to honour the victims of residential schools?
Daniel Quan-Watson
View Daniel Quan-Watson Profile
Daniel Quan-Watson
2021-06-03 11:28
We'll give you a written response with more details. However, I can tell you that the federal government owns a great deal of land in the national capital region. It isn't always necessary to buy land. Often the land costs much more than the monument itself. I don't foresee the funding issue getting in the way of what we need to do at all.
Marie Wilson
View Marie Wilson Profile
Marie Wilson
2021-06-03 12:31
Thank you very much, Chair.
Good morning, everyone. I want to acknowledge the committee and, if I may say, Chair Bratina, I also honour your expressions of remorse and what you shared with us about your wife in a very personal conversation. I think that speaks to our shared humanity as we come round this issue.
I want to acknowledge Deputy Minister Quan-Watson as well for [Technical difficulty—Editor] coming to you from Treaty 8 territory [Technical difficulty—Editor] peoples of the Dene Nation. I know Daniel lived here, but he also worked with us and paid attention to us throughout the work of our commission.
I also want to acknowledge my fellow commissioners. Good morning to you both. It's good to see you both. Thank you very much, Chief Littlechild, for your very personal sharings as well.
I acknowledge our NCTR relatives. I refer to them in that way because, in speaking of them, the existence of the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation was something that our commission gave birth to. It was part of our mandate with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and they carry on the very important and reverent work of safekeeping all that we learned and all that was given to us by way of teachings and material effects during the commission's work.
I also want to acknowledge any survivors or intergenerational survivors who may be in the room, on this committee or joining us in other ways and whose voices and, I have to say, relentless advocacy and efforts have brought us to this time and place.
Finally, and most particularly, I want to acknowledge and honour all those across the country who are grieving and who are, at the same time, feeling expressions of feeling validated for all that they have told us and all that is beginning to be heard.
I was thinking, if only I could say happy anniversary, but we're not here to celebrate. Rather, we're here to hold up to the light those things that, in fact, we have known about for years but have until now denied, ignored, or given insufficient attention, resources, or the urgency needed for action to follow.
What was happening six years ago today—six years ago, exactly, yesterday? In fact, thousands of residential school survivors and others from throughout the land were gathered in Ottawa to witness, receive and celebrate the conclusions of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. We three commissioners stood together to release the summary report of our findings, a full volume of survivors' voices—some of whom talked precisely about this issue—10 founding principles of reconciliation and 94 calls to action. We have today referenced only the calls to action numbering in the 70s, which are particularly about this, but there are others calls to action that are interrelated, such as number 82, which calls for a national monument, in part to have a commemorative place for the unknown child—those who we haven't yet found and may never find.
My part in those final speeches that day was, in fact, about the missing children. We talked about it a lot at that time, and that was six years ago.
A few months later, we released our multi-volume, full report, and our chair, Mr. Sinclair, has just referred you to volume 4, an entire volume devoted to missing children and unmarked burials.
Commissioner Littlechild has talked to you about the chairs we had in place, the empty chairs, usually two of them, one for all the little boys and one for all the little girls, so they would be ever present in front of mind in our thinking and in our work.
The conclusions in our reports did not come from thin air. They came from historic documents, from new research that was commissioned by us and from 7,000 recorded voices of former residential school student survivors, each one of them an expert on their own lived experiences, what happened to them, what happened to friends and family members, what they witnessed and those they never saw again.
Well, that was six years ago. What was happening nine years ago? In public hearings open to all who cared to pay attention, because all of our activities were public and most of them web-streamed, survivor women in Chisasibi, northern Quebec, entrusted me with this baby rattle, the shiishiikun. They conveyed a particular responsibility to me as the woman commissioner, sometimes referred to as the mother commissioner, to do all that we could to find and free the spirits of the missing children.
What was happening 11 years ago? At one of our very earliest TRC events, in Winnipeg, we sat in a circle, which included the then Conservative Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and a former chief, who implored us to find their missing relative, one who had never returned home from residential school.
What was happening 13 years ago? Leaders from each and every one of your political parties stood in the House of Commons to offer official apologies for your parties' and for respective governments' roles in imposing and perpetuating the residential school system. Very importantly, each one promised to work together to make things right in the spirit of reconciliation.
We are called together again today in what you have deemed an emergency session. I've been pondering this question: When does the known, when does the atrocious become an emergency? I'm very, very grateful for this expression of urgency but I am dismayed that it's being framed using the poor language that we have to work with, that it's being called “discovery of human remains”. This is not a discovery, which is why I have reminded you of this history. It is the validation of all that we have previously and repeatedly been told and have been saying. These are not statistics. We know the number, but these are not statistics. By the way, these are also not all of the children we know to have died at school. We already knew of 52 in our existing records. These are not statistics; these are little children, some of them possibly now forever unknown but all of them loved and none of them ever forgotten.
What can Canada do?
I've tried to wrap my head around what we might offer back as you go forward with your deliberations. Commissioner Sinclair touched on it already, and I think it's extremely important. First is a continued and sustained non-partisan response and prioritization of resources needed to do this work and all that is being addressed under that broad banner of reconciliation. We have repeatedly said that reconciliation is a non-partisan issue.
Next is accountability, so that we hold ourselves as a country to the international standards and expectations that we would in fact, and we have in the past, advocated for with respect to other countries, including in terms of the consideration of crime and crimes against humanity.
I would ask for honest language and that we not make ourselves comfortable with phrases such as “a sad chapter in our history”. Is it that or is it a human rights atrocity? Is it a social policy mistake or, in this story, was it a breeding ground for crime and abuse? With my appreciation for your committee, your focus and your commitment, for which I'm very grateful, I want you to push for this to be seen more and more as not just an issue for indigenous and northern affairs. It is an issue of human rights and of justice that is of critical importance to all Canadians and to our very principles of democracy.
It is for all of government, and I would say all of governments, as we say repeatedly in our calls to action, and the federal government with its particular ability and influence and powers to convene across all governments. Call to action number 75 in particular is very specific about that. Many of these residential schools and the burial sites are no longer on church-owned properties or even public properties. Many of them are now in private hands, and there's going to be a need for collaboration among private landowners, municipalities, indigenous leaders, provincial governments and territorial ones as well.
Then I would ask for transparency and comprehensive reporting, and, of course, that flows most easily when you have a comprehensive strategy that has been communicated and that we all know about. That way, we can know what progress is being made without having to depend on the government purporting to have done things without anyone else being well aware of them.
I am aware, in fact, of the initiatives that are under way within the indigenous affairs department on this file. Has it advanced enough? Has it advanced fast enough? Are people aware of its existence?
I think these are things we need to communicate thoroughly, frequently and in a comprehensive way, so we understand how these efforts tie in with the other efforts that are all intertwined in our calls to action. I really encourage you and all others not to limit yourselves to the calls to action that number in the 70s.
Act on the obvious. As an example, take number 82, which is outside that bundle in the 70s. It calls for a national monument to honour all students who went to residential schools, knowing that it also is intended to serve as the tomb of the unknown child, if you will, and accepting, as we must, that not all the children we will find will ever be identified. Will we ever know exactly where they came from and who they belonged to?
I would like to end by saying that I would like us to embrace—without making crass comparisons—the valuable lessons of COVID, where we have shown and proven to ourselves that we know how to give urgent response. We know how to do whatever it takes, whatever it costs, when it has to do with the right thing, when it has to do with us taking care of each other, and when it has to do with making sure we are living up to the standards we say we believe in as a country.
I want to end, if I may, where I began, by honouring all the generations of little ones who were taken from their homes and displaced from everything and everyone they knew, and by acknowledging the little children lying in Kamloops. This past week they have risen up and they have begun to be heard across the country. They have brought Canada to the forefront of international attention. It's our responsibility collectively, I think, to continue to listen to them and to make every effort to find the others throughout the land who are still missing.
I look forward to your questions and conversation. Thank you very much.
Marsi cho.
Corinne MacLellan
View Corinne MacLellan Profile
Corinne MacLellan
2021-05-10 16:48
Absolutely, and thank you so much, MP Casey. I did have a lot of that in my first draft, but I realized my time was so short that I had to edit it down.
To say that this commemorative work during the commemorative period changed my life would be an understatement. I did touch on it. With the representatives for Belgium who I met, we built up a kinship, but actually what they did was to say, “Wow, we have such a close relationship with our Canadian brothers and sisters that we need to really make a better effort in Canada to highlight what we're doing to commemorate them.” I said, “I'm here to help you”, so we embarked on a three-year program. I did eight missions. I took largely Canadian media to the battlefields of Belgium. Mr. Brassard was talking about Vimy. I also was there for the centennial. Yes, these things are absolutely incredibly life-changing.
One of the things that has always struck me, and I guess part of the reason why The Last Steps.... It was so poignant for me to go to Ypres and the Menin Gate to see the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate. All of the people we are listening to on this call are not asking for a lot. They're asking for recognition in name for service. Nobody is asking for very much. That's my experience with the people I've been working with.
I don't know if it's because the Belgians are closer to a lot of these things, but the Last Post ceremony is a very effective way to address all of these battles that aren't in history books quite yet, the way they need to be. I know that Mr. Smith talked about this, and Mr. Windsor. Families can participate in that. They can be recognized every single night—I think we're at 40,000 nights in a row—at the Menin Gate. You can submit your family to the Last Post society, and your family can go there and be recognized.
If I'm being completely honest, when we put up the Last Steps, my hope was that we could have a program like that. It wouldn't have to be here in Halifax. It doesn't matter where it is—just in Canada. All of those people could be recognized in name for their service, and their families could grieve and have some closure. I'm sure that some of you on this call have been there for the Last Post ceremony. The sister monument idea was to create a portal between Belgium and Canada, because we have such a close kinship and they have such a reverence for our service.
I'll close really quickly, because I know that I don't have a lot of time. One point I wanted to make, which was in my original speech, was that I had a tour coming through the Flanders Fields museum and I had the opportunity to meet the curator there, Mr. Piet Chielens. He was so happy to meet us and so excited to talk with Canadian media, because his whole raison d'être in life was the two Canadian soldiers who were buried near his home in the Belgium countryside. He went into this line of work because he had to research those brothers, and then he went on to become the curator of the Flanders Fields museum. He then met a man named Peter Jackson and worked very closely with him on They Shall Not Grow Old. He was just poignant in the way he spoke to the media that day about the impact of Canada on that country.
It is just the most unique experience you can have as a Canadian to go there and be recognized in the way that we are and to feel the service. It's not something that we see in history books. It's something that you really feel. That's why I think that for Vimy 100 it was so incredibly important for those 25,000 young people and Canadians to go there and really feel and see what that recognition looks like.
View Cathay Wagantall Profile
CPC (SK)
Can I ask you about the Afghan memorial? It's in a 10-year plan, and of course, has been taking a very long time to come to fruition. I hear from veterans from that time that this is very important, that they have a place to go to meet each other.
Is that the type of thing you're referring to?
Kevin Sammy Sampson
View Kevin Sammy Sampson Profile
Kevin Sammy Sampson
2021-05-05 16:28
I actually don't have a comment on that, Ms. Wagantall. I'm not really sure about the commemorative plan for the Afghan war memorial, but I can tell you that to every Afghanistan veteran, it is almost a holy place where we would like to go and commemorate our fallen.
View Scot Davidson Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, everyone. I love talking about history.
Witnesses, you weren't on the last call, but I showed a picture of my grandfather that was recreated in the War Museum.
William, this is my Uncle Bert. He was on a corvette which was sunk in the North Atlantic. That's my Uncle Don. He was a tail gunner and was shot down on July 23 over France. He hid with the French underground for a year until after the war.
Colleagues, I'm sorry to bring this up again.
Steve, because I'm new to the committee, you're the first one I have from DND as a witness.
I have a Silver Cross mother who works for me. Her son was killed in action in 2010 in Afghanistan. It was horrific.
With the unveiling of the Afghanistan memorial two years ago, she was notified of that by letter two days after it happened. I haven't had anyone yet who can assure me that the families of the fallen, definitely those from Afghanistan, are notified when there's an unveiling.
I wonder if you know of a process that has been put in place for this, because I'm having trouble finding the answer.
Steve Harris
View Steve Harris Profile
Steve Harris
2021-05-05 17:08
Unhappily, I had nothing to do with the Kandahar memorial opening at the Carling campus of NDHQ.
However, going forward, for the national Afghanistan monument, which will be across from the War Museum, I know that the Veterans Affairs' plan is to be inclusive. That will happen with great notice.
Steve Gregory
View Steve Gregory Profile
Steve Gregory
2021-05-05 17:29
Just for the stages at the cemetery and where we had our concert in front of 4,000 people—those kinds of costs were $10,000 here and 20,000 euros there. We'll stretch every nickel. This is why I say it's important for the future to leverage these organizations that have roots in foreign countries. Whether it's Juno Beach Centre, which is a great outfit, or it's Valour Canada in Canada, leverage these organizations that function predominantly with volunteers. Anybody who works with me is a volunteer, so—
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My regards to my colleagues and our witnesses.
It is very kind of you to take part in this exercise.
My first question is for Mr. Christopher.
Mr. Christopher, I would like to talk to you about financial support for overseas memorial sites. My office has received a request for financial support for the restoration of the Canadian memorial at Mont-des-Cats. Although it is in France and managed by a non-profit organization in France, of course, the memorial actively commemorates the participation of French Canadian soldiers in the Great War.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the commemorative partnership program was established to assist organizations undertaking remembrance initiatives. The Veterans Affairs Canada website states that the program can provide funding to organizations in Canada and abroad. However, I did some digging and found information that the program has, until recently, excluded foreign recipients.
As a first step, can you confirm that the program does in fact provide funding for Canadian commemorative sites such as the Mont-des-Cats memorial?
Rick Christopher
View Rick Christopher Profile
Rick Christopher
2021-05-03 16:02
I can confirm that the program does provide support for overseas memorial sites. That was the case with the Juno Beach Centre. However, in the specific situation you just mentioned, I don't know all the details. I don't know whether an application has been submitted. I could ask my office to provide me with the details, if you wish.
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
Yes, that would be very kind of you.
My understanding is that there has been a change.
Now, what were the reasons for the department expanding its support?
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
I'm talking about the commemorative partnership program. There have been changes, as I understand it.
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
Thank you.
I would like to ask a question about another area.
The departmental plan of Veterans Affairs Canada earmarks $43 million for commemoration. It is a significant amount of money, and it's justified. There will no doubt be a number of commemorative activities, but I suspect that this will not be enough to meet all the demands.
There seems to be a problem with the investments in memorial restoration and conservation. Short-term assistance is often available—again, those are some good amounts—but there is rarely long-term financial security for the organizations.
Is Veterans Affairs Canada satisfied with what it is providing in terms of long-term financial security for small and large Canadian commemorative sites?
Rick Christopher
View Rick Christopher Profile
Rick Christopher
2021-05-03 16:05
I would like to start by saying that we get a lot of requests in a financial year. A lot of organizations have built monuments or sites with private sector donations but have run out of funds because of the pandemic or other reasons. So they apply to the department for more funding to maintain or restore monuments.
I think they are free to apply to the program, but the challenge is certainly ongoing, because monuments are being built and we wonder whose responsibility it is to maintain them. Is it the responsibility of Canadians? We have to figure out what to do in the long term. Often, organizations build monuments and the Government of Canada is left with the responsibility to maintain them. So we frequently talk to those groups to see what their long-term management plan is for the sites.
View Cathay Wagantall Profile
CPC (SK)
That's great. As I think about the fact that I got to go, I have an incredible desire to see my children and grandchildren have that experience, maybe just to light that fire. I can see how challenging it would be to do that.
In our notes, it reads, “Lastly, the 10-year strategic plan calls for the completion of the national monument to Canada's mission in Afghanistan on LeBreton Flats in Ottawa.” Where is that mission right now in terms of seeing that come to fruition? What's the date that we can tell them this is going to be completed?
Rick Christopher
View Rick Christopher Profile
Rick Christopher
2021-05-03 16:17
Mr. Chair, I'll start with some of the challenges we face, and I'll let Paul wrap it up.
I will tell you that we've been working hard with our partners at Heritage and the National Capital Commission. Of course, the pandemic hit. We've even done some things like use drone imagery to help the five finalists who have been selected do a virtual site visit. There have been some delays because of that, and we're working hard to make sure we get this. We continue this despite some of the challenges, and we will make sure there will be a meaningful place for veterans and all Canadians to commemorate Afghanistan.
Did you want to talk about some timelines, Paul?
Paul Thomson
View Paul Thomson Profile
Paul Thomson
2021-05-03 16:18
A key one is upcoming. Our phase two of the consultation work is coming. Rick alluded to the fact that we are down to five finalists who have been working diligently on their design concepts. They are going to be presenting those concepts to the Canadian public very shortly—in mid to late May.
As Rick said, unfortunately, it all has to be virtual. We're going to open it up to key stakeholders first—that is, families and others.
Paul Thomson
View Paul Thomson Profile
Paul Thomson
2021-05-03 16:18
They will be able to look at the concepts and provide their feedback. Then we'll open it up to the public for the same. That's a key upcoming phase that we are getting into in terms of consultation.
Once that happens, we will select the jury. Based on all the feedback, we'll select a winner.
View Cathay Wagantall Profile
CPC (SK)
How many years down the road is this? You must have a sense.
Paul Thomson
View Paul Thomson Profile
Paul Thomson
2021-05-03 16:19
In terms of picking a winner, this is all going to happen within the next three to four months—in early fall. Once the winning design architect is chosen, they'll go away and work on their actual design and the actual monument. That's going to take some time.
It's slated now for a November 2024 unveiling. Times could shift in light of the situation we're in.
View Rachel Blaney Profile
NDP (BC)
Thank you, everyone. I apologize for missing your presentation.
I heard Mr. Casey's question and I really couldn't agree more. We're hearing and seeing a lot more interaction in community events.
I know COVID has changed it, but this past Remembrance Day we had a small event and I was absolutely amazed to see how many of our veterans came, from the Second World War and the Korean War. Some of them were very elderly, but they were still there. It was hard for our cadets to not be able to go and help them walk closer. I appreciate how these opportunities for us to remember are really challenged during this time.
At the last committee meeting, we heard from Caitlin Bailey, the executive director of the Vimy Foundation. She talked about the concern she had around overseas commemorations—that mentality of “if it's out of sight, it's out of mind”—and making sure Canada is proactive in providing sustainable funding for the maintenance of memorials.
I wonder if you could give us a bit of an update and tell us if VAC is committed to ensuring that sustainable funding is there for the maintenance and upkeep of overseas commemorations, which I know we all agree are so important for us in our international reputation.
I will leave it to you to decide who should answer.
Rick Christopher
View Rick Christopher Profile
Rick Christopher
2021-05-03 16:31
Mr. Chair, I can start.
I absolutely agree, and as you can imagine, there are a number of challenges with having sites overseas. We have 14 sites. Two of them are national historic sites.
There are a number of organizations that we work with on a regular basis. Some of them do approach us on an ongoing basis for additional funding, whether that be for maintenance or interpretation. Some of these are ad hoc and some of them are more ongoing. For instance, if we look at the Juno Beach Centre, which is run by a non-governmental organization, we have an ongoing relationship in terms of funding for them.
For some of the others, though, such as if you're talking about the Vimy Foundation, we partner with them and provide funding, really to enhance the experience for people who are either interested in Vimy or visiting Vimy.
Maybe Paul can talk a bit about some of the ongoing projects we have with them.
Paul Thomson
View Paul Thomson Profile
Paul Thomson
2021-05-03 16:32
Very quickly, yes, the Juno Beach Centre and Vimy Foundation are very key and important partners for us in the work we do. We are working on a policy around third parties and how to deal with that ongoing asset management issue that we have, but we are working very well with both of them.
Even on the content development side, we've done some wonderful things with the Vimy Foundation recently that they're working on in terms of exhibits and content for Vimy, and the same with the Juno Beach Centre. They're very much aligned with our strategic plan and looking for opportunities for their own respective organizations to work with that.
I know that's not part of your question, but I want to flag that the relationship is good with both of those key groups and that we are working on a third party policy to put some parameters around how that ongoing asset management issue is going to look and feel going forward.
View Darrell Samson Profile
Lib. (NS)
Steven, thank you very much for that information, because 9,000 is just about 25% of the 40,000 who participated in the Afghan war, and that's major. That's really important.
I see Legions going out and trying to bring those individuals in more actively. I thank you for that work and that important celebration you brought to the table in 2015.
I hear from some Afghan veterans—March 31 marked seven years since the end of the Afghan war—that some of them still feel that the cenotaphs and the memorials don't recognize their dates and service of peace, if you want.
Are you hearing that, and what do you see as being a solution to that? I have a number of veterans who are saying they're not being recognized as they should be. What could you suggest?
Steven Clark
View Steven Clark Profile
Steven Clark
2021-05-03 16:49
Yes, I'm hearing the same thing, and that should never be. We have to make sure that service is recognized, and something as simple as placing dates on a community war memorial will go a long way to showing those who served in Afghanistan that we really care what they did and want to recognize that.
As you know, those dates were added to the National War Memorial, something we've encouraged Legion branches across the country to do. If they have a Legion-owned memorial, please add those dates. If it's not a Legion-owned memorial, talk to the town or the municipality. They should be recognized; we can't forget them.
View Andy Fillmore Profile
Lib. (NS)
View Andy Fillmore Profile
2021-05-03 17:12
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Clark, thank you so much. As the sole witness for an hour, with 12 MPs firing rapid questions at you, you're doing remarkably well. Thank you for your lucidity, and moreover, for your incredible work.
At one point in your testimony you raised the alarm that if we don't have Legions and branches, where are we?
I see the work of the Legions in Halifax: the Spryfield Legion, the Vimy Legion and the White Ensign Legion. The Vimy Legion provides the colour guard for our main Remembrance Day events. The Spryfield Legion has become a living room for the community there. The programs that support veterans are so important, with the extended family and all the benefits that brings. However, the Legions also facilitate remembrance, don't they? They carry the stories forward, whether it's in an oral tradition or with the stories of what's on the wall of the Legions, or whether it is turning up to be the colour guard at important events.
We're seeing the membership numbers fall. I'm thinking particularly of the White Ensign Legion. They were trying everything, having barbeque nights and bringing in different kinds of music, trying to recruit younger members to keep the good work going. They were having a very difficult time with that. That's not my real question.
If you have any secrets for us on how we can increase youth membership in our local Legions, I would love to hear that from you, or how we can help, if there was a program that VAC could undertake that could help in some way.
If you have an answer to that, that's great, but I really want to talk to you about physical memorials. For example, at the Spryfield Legion, there is a granite memorial. I don't know the story of who paid for it or how it's maintained, but there are a number of memorials around Halifax, as there are in towns and cities across the country, that have cropped up organically.
Famously, in Halifax, as I mentioned at our last meeting of the committee, there is the HMCS Bonaventure anchor. A very plucky crew of survivors of the HMCS Kootenay disaster had it renovated for the 75th anniversary of Kootenay, but it was very unclear about whose responsibility it was and who had to pay for it. In the end, it all worked out, but it wasn't clear.
I wonder whether there is any insight you might give us on how we can better care for those smaller memorials. The glamorous ones are in the news on Remembrance Day, but I'm asking about those smaller community monuments.
Thank you.
Steven Clark
View Steven Clark Profile
Steven Clark
2021-05-03 17:15
I know that a number of years ago there was a national repository of memorials across the country that was gathering pictures and information so that people would know where they were and who was maintaining them or had the responsibility for it. I do not know the state of play for that repository, or whether it is still valid or updated.
With regard to community memorials, they could be Legion owned or non-Legion owned, but regardless of whether they are or not, if there is a local Legion branch, they are able to financially support the maintenance of those memorials should they fall into a state of disrepair or need things done. It's very important that we do that, so whether or not there's ownership, the Legion stands ready to assist if required.
Perhaps I could just quickly go back to your original comment about how you draw younger people in. It's a challenge. I look at the innovative ways in which some branches have done this.
For example, the Legion branch from Fredericton turned one of their meeting rooms into a gaming centre. They filled it with Xboxes and large-screen TVs, and being a community close to CFB Gagetown, it drew in those individuals, so they were able to learn what the Legion can do for them. Whether they are Legion members or not doesn't really matter, as long as they know that the Legion is there when they do need the Legion.
David Loveridge
View David Loveridge Profile
David Loveridge
2021-04-28 16:10
Thank you very much.
I think I'm going to take an angle from the perspective that we have a clear responsibility to maintain 1.7 million memorials or commemorations around the world. Many of those commemorations are over 100 years old now. This involves maintaining not only the graves and the grave markers, but all of the memorials that were built in places such as Thiepval and the Menin Gate, or the India Gate in India.
They're large resources. They're large in scope and large in size. I think our obligation should be to maintain what we have, make sure that we do our veterans proud and that we properly commemorate them going forward. That's an investment that's in perpetuity, from our perspective, and I think it's important going forward.
View Darrell Samson Profile
Lib. (NS)
—just with your expertise, how easy would it be to put those dates on the cenotaphs, the 7,500, that aren't on them now?
David Loveridge
View David Loveridge Profile
David Loveridge
2021-04-28 17:12
From a pure physical ability, it would be easy. From a political perspective, it may be not so easy.
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
Thank you, Mr. McLellan.
Mr. Loveridge, we are short on time, but I'd like your opinion with respect to overseas memorials compared to those chosen in Canada and Quebec.
Is there sufficient funding on both sides? Is there an area, overseas or in Canada, that is being left behind?
David Loveridge
View David Loveridge Profile
David Loveridge
2021-04-28 17:14
My understanding is that the funding in Europe is sufficient to meet the requirements for the memorials in the short term. I have heard nobody say that there was not sufficient funding in Europe. I'm talking specifically about the VAC memorials that we care for under the commission.
In Canada we don't have a lot of memorials, but we do have more than 228,000 grave markers, which I think many of you may be aware were not being well maintained. That's why we're in this five-year project right now to care for the backlog.
I would hate to see us go back to the shortfall funding that we had prior to this project. Understanding what's required to maintain our grave markers, then, which are memorials here in Canada, would be very important going forward.
View Scot Davidson Profile
CPC (ON)
Thanks very much for that.
I have a Silver Cross mom who works for me—her son was killed in action in Afghanistan—and she was very disappointed by the Liberal government when they failed to invite them to the Afghan memorial unveiling. She got a letter two days after the unveiling. I want to know what we're doing currently to make sure things like that don't happen again and that they're always involved in the commemoration process.
When there's a commemoration process, is there going to be outreach especially to families, I would say, of those who have recently been killed in action? Is outreach going to take place?
View Scot Davidson Profile
CPC (ON)
I'm asking anyone who's involved in commemoration, but I'll leave that. That was just an upsetting incident that took place.
That's something we have to look at: if there's going to be any commemorative unveilings like there was with the Afghanistan memorial that families are notified on that.
Second, I think—
Steve McLellan
View Steve McLellan Profile
Steve McLellan
2021-04-28 17:31
It's an interesting question. I think that for solutions to determine the best way collectively as Canadians to honour these people—those who lost their lives as well as those who suffered—there needs to be a broader conversation.
We spend an awful lot of time, and rightfully so, on the First World War and Second World War, and I applaud that 100% and support it, but you've alerted us today to the Afghan women and men who have come back. They all left something on the sands of Afghanistan, if you will, as our Mounties do when they have served. There are some great tragedies, sadly, that have happened recently in the world of policing and that I think need to be represented.
As for how we do it exactly, I couldn't tell you, but I do know that the Mounties do a capable job, a very, very good job, of recognizing those who have lost their lives. They do an annual memorial service and so on, and on Depot their names are recognized on a cenotaph.
I think what we need to do is make sure that we, as Canadians and agencies, have that ability to place that name, if you will, and then, most importantly, that we tell the rest of Canada to come and see it and pay attention to it. Through standing in front of those cenotaphs in Arcola, Saskatchewan, or Yorkton, Saskatchewan, or on Depot, people say, “Okay, this is critical. Man, these people made a difference.”
Standing next to a Mountie who knew that person whose name is there, that matters, and it needs to matter. We need to continue to tell Canadians why it matters. Otherwise, we'll continue to make the mistakes we've made in the past. Let's not do it again in the future.
View Andy Fillmore Profile
Lib. (NS)
View Andy Fillmore Profile
2021-04-28 17:35
Thank you to the witnesses for their time today.
One of you said that we are all connected to service in some way. It was very nice of Scot Davidson to share the story of his grandfather.
I'm going to hold this up. That's my grandfather. Maybe he knew Scot's grandfather. He was also at Vimy Ridge. He was injured there. That was him when he was signing up freshly to the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry a long time ago.
He was lucky. He came home and he started a family and I was able to take my seat in Parliament to help to participate in the democracy that he and others gave so much to defend. It's a great privilege to be here with all of you.
Ms. Dromaguet, two years in a row now we've missed the Battle of the Atlantic gala. You'll remember the famous photograph of the survivors of the Battle of the Atlantic. We have that photograph each year and the group gets smaller every year. I'm just so terrified of going back from 2019 to 2022 when we'll be able to do it again and how much that group will have shrunk by then.
To all of you, thank you for the work you do to commemorate and remember the sacrifices that have happened, that have been made by Canadians over many years.
I want to bring it to memorials and physical monuments. I represent Halifax as the navy town so I'm going to go to the navy by way of example. Here in Point Pleasant Park we have the anchor of HMCS Bonaventure, the Bonnie. It is a monument to people who lost their lives in service during peacetime.
There are a lot of monuments like it around the country whose ownership is not quite clear. They suffer from vandalism, from age. In the case of the Bonaventure monument, it's shoreline erosion because it's right on the edge of the ocean. We recently were able to coordinate among DND, VAC and a local survivor's group of the HMCS Kootenay disaster whose shipmates' names are on that monument, and we were able to bring that monument back in time for the 60th anniversary of the Kootenay disaster. But it wasn't easy. It wasn't straightforward.
Using that as an example, I'm wondering if any of you might have some advice for us on how we can care for these many smaller monuments throughout our communities across the country that commemorate those who have fallen.
I'll start with Mr. McLellan, given your domestic mandate, but if others would share any wisdom, I would be very grateful.
Steve McLellan
View Steve McLellan Profile
Steve McLellan
2021-04-28 17:38
Thank you.
I can be very crisp on this.
We have many young people who are lamenting the fact they can't get out and socialize. We have many young women and men in this country 18 to 25 years old, 30 years old, who want to be cause supportive. If we give them a cause, it can be two days' work, five days' work; it could be a committee of young people who would support the necessary work. I think they would do all kinds of things, the physical work to take off the graffiti, to call on sponsors, to do the work that's necessary and to share the stories. I think there are lots of young Canadians we've not engaged in this, and we've asked our veterans to serve again by putting their cash and their time towards it.
Let's get our young people active. I bet they'd be more than enthusiastic.
View Andy Fillmore Profile
Lib. (NS)
View Andy Fillmore Profile
2021-04-28 17:38
I think it's a brilliant idea. That brings labour to the equation.
There's also something about funding though. It was a rather expensive bit of shoreline restoration.
Are there any experiences perhaps from the other witnesses from overseas monuments how other countries or other veterans organizations are managing the funding stream that preserves these monuments going into the future?
Don Cooper
View Don Cooper Profile
Don Cooper
2021-04-28 17:39
I can comment quickly on France, since I know it a little.
Generally, as in Canada, they often fall under the municipalities' purview, and the municipalities will look after them and have a sense of history that gets them to do that.
The youth aspect is really important. That's a great idea that Steve brought out.
In France and in Holland in particular, both countries, they get the youth out there to put wreaths and little Canadian flags on the graves, so they're involved, essentially in commemoration. That's an important aspect whether you're removing graffiti or something else. So stick with the idea.
David Loveridge
View David Loveridge Profile
David Loveridge
2021-04-28 17:40
I'll be quick.
We have a fair bit of experience with it. A lot of regimental units especially over in England and Europe put together memorials. It's easy to fund for the memorial; it's difficult to fund for the life-cycle maintenance of the memorial.
Part of that, I think, is the same in Canada. People want to build memorials, and those are all good things, but unfortunately it's who owns it afterwards, and who maintains it, and where the funds come from. Those are the kinds of questions we need to be asking.
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to come back to what Mr. Loveridge was just talking about.
Ms. Bailey, some time ago we were approached by a heritage association located in France. This association looks after the maintenance of a memorial site we're talking about, a site that is very important to the 22e Regiment. It's the Canadian Mont-des-Cats memorial in northern France. Compared to Vimy, this site isn't as significant, as it's a small place.
Do you think Veterans Affairs Canada has a funding strategy to help these kinds of second-class memorial sites?
Caitlin Bailey
View Caitlin Bailey Profile
Caitlin Bailey
2021-04-28 17:42
For now, yes. There's a program in Canada under the umbrella of the commemorative partnership program, which is designed to fund the renovation of second-class monuments, that is, small monuments, community monuments, and so on. This applies only to Canada. That's kind of the problem. There's no similar program for monuments elsewhere in Europe.
Mr. Loveridge said earlier that the question was complicated in terms of who owns it and who provides the funding. Is it up to France or Canada? The regiment may not even exist anymore or it may exist in a different form today. There's a lot of complexity in this, but I think it would be a good start to open up this program to monuments like the one you mentioned.
Caitlin Bailey
View Caitlin Bailey Profile
Caitlin Bailey
2021-04-28 17:47
So was I. I was in a tent. I'd never want to go back to that tent, but it's hard to believe that we were there.
Our 105 initiative is Vimy: A Living Memorial, which is a digital project. It is an app that will explore the Vimy site. We're working with the European operations team to do that. In addition there will be a digital commemoration space, which we're building with the National Film Board of Canada. It is going to connect contemporary veterans and Canadians with historical sources to try to bring people together on the question of what war means.
When we have finished that, we will move on towards the building of the monument. We'll be planning a lot of different activities around Walter Allward and the cross being built within the monument.
We have a lot on the go right now and will have for the next five years.
Marc Kielburger
View Marc Kielburger Profile
Marc Kielburger
2021-03-15 14:40
Of course.
For the last nine months, we have sought to be measured in our comments, but the good of a children's charity has been destroyed by political crossfire. Today, we are taking a stance. We have been disappointed in the conduct of all political parties in this matter.
What was accomplished by educators and students in 7,000 schools is remarkable and deserves to be protected. It's been 25 years of helping to build over 1,500 schools and schoolhouses around the world; educating 200,000 children; improving access to health care and clean water for one million people and, here in Canada, running the nation's largest annual one-day collection for food banks, creating a mental health curriculum for Canadian students and, through WE schools and WE Day, supporting more than 5,000 charities and communities across Canada logging 70 million hours of service.
Committee members will likely pay lip service to these achievements. They may claim not to be attacking these good works, but their political games have cancelled many of these impacts, and they're jeopardizing the rest.
In the drive to do good, to do better, we confronted outdated models and prohibitions. Canada's charitable sector is in a crisis. There is a 30-year steady decline in the percentage of Canadians who give, yet federal law restricts how Canadian charities earn income. In response, we incorporated ME to WE Social Enterprises, to create empowering jobs in poor communities around the world and to generate revenue that helps to be donated 100% to WE Charity.
It's the same model as Newman's Own, the salad dressing, a true company that donates 100% of its after-tax profits, totalling hundreds of millions of dollars, to the Newman's Own Foundation. The company was owned by Paul Newman until his death.
Until recent politics, ME to WE Social Enterprises was celebrated as a new model of how to do good. Since it's founding, as mentioned, 100% of all profits have been donated to WE Charity, where we invest it to grow its social mission.
Craig and I started young. We grew, and we learned along the way that doing good is not simple. Not just for teenagers but for anyone of any age who wants to build something, who thinks differently, who tries to innovate for good, he's going to make mistakes, and we've made our share. We've apologized.
In the future, we'll surely make more mistakes, and we'll apologize again.
We heard the American journalist, Mr. Reed Cowan speak here two weeks ago. The death of a child is beyond words, and our hearts sincerely go out to him. Fifteen years ago, he said he wanted to help children in Kenya, and he did just that. He directly raised about $70,000 USD, and those donations supported four schoolhouses in Kenya. Two had plaques honouring his son, and one plaque was removed. Mr. Cowan is right to be upset, and no words are sufficient to erase the grief that this error has compounded.
Last month, when we first learned about the mistake, Craig called over to Mr. Cowan apologizing on behalf of the charity. They spoke for about 90 minutes. We immediately mounted the second plaque honouring his son Wesley. We're checking our records, as a second donor to the same Kenyan village about the same time—15 years ago—also had a problem with a plaque. We again immediately apologized and are working to properly recognize her generous support.
Working in developing countries is not easy. Ending extreme poverty is not simple. The African proverb is true—it takes a village to raise a child. That village requires schools, water projects, medical care and more. We fundraised more than the cost of building a schoolhouse because [Technical difficulty—Editor] school lunches and student vaccines. We fundraised more than the actual cost of simply drilling a [Technical difficulty—Editor] fuelled repairs to keep community projects going for years. WE Charity and most charities provide catalogues of goats, schoolhouses and wells, which are representative uses of funds, to help donors visualize the impacts in a community.
WE Charity and most charities clearly explain that if more funds are collected than needed for a particular catalogue item, those funds will be redirected to similar activities to help end poverty. This is to ensure that all essential programs receive the necessary support.
WE Charity, like most global organizations, pools funds to help the entire village, and our notice of pooling funds for the village and directing funds to the greatest need is clear and transparent. Hundreds of donors have shared with us that they understand this model, and they agree that this is the responsible approach to community development.
Donors give, because the models have proven to end poverty in villages, and all the money goes to help children. However, perhaps for a lack of experience in giving to WE Charity, we are bewildered that one member of this committee irresponsibly compared this near-universal charitable practice to fraud.
Certain members of this committee have also advanced a false narrative that WE Charity was trying to avoid answering questions. The truth is that months earlier, we had confirmed our willingness to come voluntarily to this committee to answer all questions. This was in addition to voluntary testimony before the finance committee on the same issue for a record four hours, more than anyone who has testified, for example, even about COVID.
A week prior to our appearance, Mr. Angus wrote on member of Parliament letterhead demanding police and income tax investigations of WE Charity. Clearly, showing the political purpose of his actions, he announced this on Twitter, and his letter was immediately leaked to the press to generate headlines.
Imagine, the NDP calling in the police for clearly political purposes on a children's charity. Craig and I wanted nothing more than to come to talk to you to prove to you that such allegations are wrong. If this was about us, as individuals, we would have come here right away to refute some of the very personal attacks on our integrity, but it's not that simple.
This charity is more important than us. WE Charity's work must be carefully protected. You see, even as WE Charity winds down its Canadian activities, because of politics, it continues to operate life-saving humanitarian programs, such as a hospital in Kenya that is the only safe place for miles for women to give birth. By requesting a law enforcement investigation of WE Charity for political reasons in the middle of these proceedings, even before hearing from us, Mr. Angus knew he'd get headlines, while making it hard for WE Charity to defend itself.
Let's be clear, Mr. Warkentin, with respect, this forum doesn't give WE Charity, or us, the legal protections guaranteed to Canadians. Politicians are not impartial. Without recognizing our right to present our own evidence, this committee is trying WE Charity in the courts of public opinion and forcing testimony.
One member of Parliament, Mr. Poilievre, even threatened us with imprisonment before a summons was issued. Members of Parliament often speak of their privileges, and you just did a few moments ago. So that all Canadians will understand what you're referring to, the legal term, absolute privilege, means members of Parliament can say anything they want no matter how malicious and false. Canadians are powerless to hold members of Parliament accountable for a falsehood on social media, and on conventional media, it will share these statements and false accusations.
Over the past nine months, many falsehoods have circulated about WE Charity and those associated with it. Lies and innuendo have been spread about me, my brother, and our families. Not even our 80 year-old parents have been spared.
Trying to respond to the tsunami of misinformation, we have asked leading Canadians forensic accountants to conduct a thorough review to determine if there was anything improper arising from our relationship between us, our families or [Technical difficulty—Editor].
To be clear, no one asked us to do this, and we welcomed this inquiry from non-political experts. We provided everything the auditor asked for, from our personal finances to real estate. The forensic accountants concluded:
We did not identify any concerns in relation to interactions between WE Charity and M2WSE. We found no evidence of improper transactions which benefited the Kielburgers personally.
MPs have now demanded or initiated nine different inquiries relating to WE Charity with the Standing Committee on Finance; the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs; the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics; the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, the Privacy Commissioner and the Commissioner of Lobbying.
Thanks to Mr. Angus, and now potentially, the RCMP and the CRA.
WE Charity believes in fairness, accountability and transparency. It will work with any non-political agency investigating legal matters. To Canadians who are watching, I say, “If partisan politicians can use their powers irresponsibly, then they can do it to any organization or business.”
Consider what the politicians did to a Canadian-owned small business named Speakers' Spotlight which was [Technical difficulty—Editor] part of these proceedings. It pressured the owners to break privacy laws.
When that failed, they mounted a public relations campaign against the small business, a reckless, mean-spirited attack that resulted in doxing, online hate, harassment and threats of violence.
The Conservatives, the party of small business and free enterprise, initiated that, and to this day, no Conservative member of Parliament has apologized for the hate or the harm they have caused. When your sole talking point is that you have the power, you betray indifference to using it responsibly.
At the request of WE Charity's board of directors, joining us today is Will McDowell, a former associate deputy minister of justice who served under both Paul Martin and Stephen Harper. For context as well, we had our COVID tests this morning.
The charity is entitled to fairness and respect for its rights. If Mr. Angus had not changed the rules at the last minute, Craig and I would be here on our own as originally planned. Mr. McDowell is here to protect the interests of the charity because of Mr. Angus' actions.
Although Canadian politics have cancelled WE Charity in Canada, in countries like Kenya, the endowment we set up will continue to help children for generations. It will help operate Baraka Hospital where, in December, 158 babies were safely born. It will help run secondary schools, delivering education to help hundreds of girls, many avoiding the slavery of early, childhood marriage. Many good people are delivering these projects. They do not deserve to be political pawns.
The stated mandate of this committee is to investigate pandemic spending. Here's a simple fact. Given the chance to do good for 100,000 students and other charities during the pandemic, WE Charity agreed to help. That's what charities do. They help where that is needed.
We didn't advise the Prime Minister and Mr. Morneau not to recuse themselves. We never prorogued Parliament. We were not involved in the decision to filibuster the committee this fall. This is a political scandal for the government, not WE Charity.
The government hid behind a children's charity by letting it take the fall for the government's political decisions, and the opposition allowed it. Not a single member of Parliament has spoken up for the millions of Canadian children around the world who benefited from this organization. As MPs, of course, you have the power to summon who you please. Let me ask you this: After a year of political games, what has been the result? What have you accomplished?
March is the one-year anniversary of the WHO declaring a pandemic. Hundreds of thousands of Canadian kids will once again need employment this summer. Where's the replacement program for youth opportunity? Who among you has developed a better plan to match non-profits in the volunteer sector they so desperately need? How are Canadian youth...? How has any of this made them, as young people in Canada, more likely to serve or more likely one day to go into politics?
It's easy to tear down irresponsibly. It's, however, difficult to build and much more difficult to replace what you destroy. WE Charity wasn't perfect, but Canadian youth, Canadian young people, were better off because of it.
Winston Churchill warned that some people's idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like but that if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage. Just as Churchill predicted, some of you may be outraged that we point out the politics at the root of all this. If today is anything like our committee appearance nine months ago, you will make your speeches, denounce us, ask your questions, answer them yourself and then ignore our answers. As you do, we will think of the remaining dedicated staff pouring heart and soul into doing good, like operating a hospital and a secondary school in Kenya.
Today will be another day of bombardment from you, but tomorrow we will return to the good work of helping children.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. McDowell would like to say a few words.
View Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Profile
Lib. (ON)
What do you make now of the December article in Bloomberg where staff joked that WE plaques should be made of velcro because they were swapped so frequently? I know that initially the response was that that's never happened. What do you make of staff saying that now?
Craig Kielburger
View Craig Kielburger Profile
Craig Kielburger
2021-03-15 16:16
We understand that two cases have been identified in that same village at that same time, which was about 15 years ago. We want to research it. We want to get the bottom of it. It shouldn't have happened. We apologize for those two cases. We're going to continue to look in case there's anyone else that this has happened to.
There's context to give. One thing that sometimes.... I'm not saying this happened in this particular case because, again, it was 15 years ago. We're trying to figure out our records.
Craig Kielburger
View Craig Kielburger Profile
Craig Kielburger
2021-03-15 16:17
It would have been in Kenya. It would have been a member of the Kenya team, theoretically. The thought that comes to mind, potentially, is that—and again, I'm not going to speculate about Mr. Cowan, but generally—we have funding to build schools, but funding also comes in to provide teacher training, lunches for kids and vaccinations. The funding to actually run a school is exponentially more than the cost to build a school, as you can imagine. Sometimes multiple plaques are placed on a project because it takes multiple donors to run the project.
View Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Profile
Lib. (ON)
Why would a plaque ever be taken down? I guess that's the part I've tried to think through. I just can't really figure out the answer to that.
Craig Kielburger
View Craig Kielburger Profile
Craig Kielburger
2021-03-15 16:17
I agree with you. It should never have happened. We made a mistake. A mistake was made in the organization involving that man's plaque. One of those two plaques should not have been taken down. You're absolutely right.
That's why I called him and I apologized. We publicly apologized. We know we need to get to the bottom of that.
View Charlie Angus Profile
NDP (ON)
Thank you.
This is March 15. This is the anniversary of Wesley Cowan's death.
I think we were all pretty moved when we heard Reed Cowan, because you realize that you don't get over a loss like that. That's why memorials are so important. That's why they have to be treated with such sacred trust.
This, then, is also the anniversary of when you dedicated that school to this son, and that trust was broken. I want to ask, how soon after Reed Cowan left was that plaque taken down?
Craig Kielburger
View Craig Kielburger Profile
Craig Kielburger
2021-03-15 16:24
Mr. Angus, this is the one thing that we do agree with you on, and fully. It should never have happened.
Craig Kielburger
View Craig Kielburger Profile
Craig Kielburger
2021-03-15 16:24
It was 15 years ago. People are looking at the records. I don't know the answer to that question. We've [Technical difficulty—Editor] our standing committee to find the answer, and we should have that answer, and he is owed that answer. We are looking into that—
View Charlie Angus Profile
NDP (ON)
He is owed that answer, because the issue is that you didn't take the plaque down once. You took it down twice. He went back in 2008 and wanted to see the building. We have the TV footage. Your staff did everything they could to keep him from getting to that building, and finally he insisted, because it was his son's school. He went back and it was a different plaque. You had thrown out the first plaque and you put a second plaque up, so then you took that plaque down and put somebody else's plaque up.
To follow up on Mr. Erskine-Smith's comments about staff—your staff—joking about this, we have articles in Bloomberg about this. We've had The Fifth Estate. The fact that you took that plaque down twice shows this wasn't an accident. This was wilful. You sold and you got Mr. Cowan to take his son's death and legacy and build a story across America, and then, when he was gone, you gave that school to someone else.
How do you justify that?
Craig Kielburger
View Craig Kielburger Profile
Craig Kielburger
2021-03-15 16:26
Sir, firstly, what you describe was not accurate, but here's where I agree with you—
View Charlie Angus Profile
NDP (ON)
That was accurate. He has footage of it. We've seen the pictures of the plaque.
I know you have a hundred-and-some things about all the wrong stuff I've said. It's actually quite.... I love it. I'm reposting your gaslighting, but I have the photos of the plaques. You had to go out and buy a cheap knock-off plaque because you threw the first one out. That's two plaques.
These are the allegations that are against you. You need to answer that.
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