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View Wayne Easter Profile
Lib. (PE)
I will call the meeting to order.
Welcome to meeting number 58 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, April 27, 2021, the committee is meeting to study the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion.
Today's meeting is taking place in the hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25 of this year. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. I think we all know here that only the person speaking shows up when we're in session.
With that, we are fortunate today to have here the Minister of National Revenue, the Honourable Diane Lebouthillier. She'll have a few opening remarks for about seven minutes, I gather.
Thank you, Minister. Not all ministers give us their remarks the night before in both official languages. We appreciate that.
With the minister is Ted Gallivan, assistant commissioner, compliance programs branch, who has been here many a time. We welcome him, as well.
We will start with the minister—
View Pat Kelly Profile
CPC (AB)
I have a point of order. I'll be really quick, Mr. Chair.
I agree with you. I do thank the minister for providing her remarks ahead of time. That was thoughtful of her to do so. I have read them. I'm sure everybody else has, as well.
I wonder if we might dispense with having them read into the record and go straight to questions.
View Wayne Easter Profile
Lib. (PE)
No, I don't believe so, Mr. Kelly. I find that the ministers do like to have an opportunity to make their statement. I think it's one of the reasons we don't get them if we take that opportunity away from them.
On this one I'm going to allow the minister to make her statement and thank her for her courtesy. It gives us, as members, time to better prepare questions.
Madam Minister.
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Thank you very much.
Hello to all my colleagues.
Mr. Chair, I would like to take this opportunity, before beginning my presentation, to wish you a happy birthday.
Thank you for this invitation to provide details on the Canada Revenue Agency's strategies to combat tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.
Let me begin by saying that the Government of Canada and the CRA are firmly committed to combatting tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance on all fronts. And we are all committed to making things much more difficult for those who choose not to meet their tax obligations.
In fact, since 2016, the Government of Canada has made investments that have helped provide the CRA with better data, better methodology and, ultimately, better results.
In particular, these investments have enabled the agency to develop a strategy that promotes global data sharing. Let's face it, tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance are complex global problems.
The CRA is working with international partners through various multilateral organizations, including the Organization for Economic Co‑operation and Development, or OECD, and its forum on tax administration, the FTA. I was pleased to see that Mr. Bob Hamilton, commissioner of the CRA, was appointed chair of the FTA in August 2020.
As a result of its modern and collaborative strategy, Canada is member to 93 tax treaties and 24 international tax information exchange agreements. In fact, Canada is one of more than 70 countries that exchange information through the country‑by‑country reporting system.
In addition, Canada participates in the electronic funds transfer reporting program, which is related to international electronic funds transfers over $10,000. And with the implementation of the common reporting standard in 2016, Canada, alongside nearly 100 other jurisdictions, benefits from financial institution data that identifies financial accounts held by non-resident clients for tax purposes.
With these improved resources and tools, the CRA is now able to focus on large multinationals, high net worth networks, the underground economy, cryptocurrency and real estate transactions.
The CRA is now seeing these signs of success because of the investments made by the Government of Canada.
In recent years, the CRA has assessed the equivalent of more than $12 billion each year through audits, more than 60% of which were related to tax avoidance by large multinationals and aggressive tax planning by high net worth individuals.
And I must note that these investments have generated approximately $5 billion in additional federal tax revenue, as of March 2021.
Additionally, the CRA's criminal investigations program has enhanced its ability to investigate the most serious tax crimes. It is important to note that the agency investigates complex cases in collaboration with its partners in the Department of Finance and the Department of Justice to close what may be perceived as legal loopholes. And I must remind you that the CRA has shifted its focus to more hard-hitting investigations, which result in more jail time and higher fines.
However, we must never forget that tax evasion often involves very complex domestic and international money transfer structures, which require the CRA to complete lengthy and time-consuming intelligence gathering processes.
I also want to note that we are increasingly seeing high net worth taxpayers using the court system when they are audited in order to avoid providing documents and information to the agency. And I want to emphasize that the volume of complex litigation is up significantly from previous years, with approximately 3,000 active cases considered high level in complexity.
As a result, first announced in the 2020 fall economic statement and confirmed in budget 2021, the Government of Canada has committed to invest $606 million over five years, beginning in 2021‑22, to continue this complex work.
These investments will close the compliance gap for high net worth individuals, strengthen technical support for high-risk audits, improve the CRA's ability to identify tax evasion involving trusts, improve the CRA's ability to stop fraudulent or unjustified GST/HST refunds, and, finally, improve the criminal investigations program.
In addition to the financial investments from budget 2021 legislative changes will also be put in place to strengthen the rules on transfer pricing, oral testimony, base erosion and profit shifting, and mandatory disclosure rules.
Before I conclude, I would like to wish the chair of this committee, Mr. Wayne Easter, a very happy retirement.
I want to thank you personally for your outstanding work on behalf of Canadians. We will miss you.
Mr. Chair, I am proud to say that the Government of Canada and the CRA have shown determination and innovation in creating effective and proactive approaches to identifying those who avoid paying their fair share of taxes or who are taking steps to do so.
Thank you.
View Philip Lawrence Profile
CPC (ON)
I can agree with the chair. I would certainly like to see more Liberals retire.
Thanks very much.
My question, obviously, is for the minister.
The inability to collect revenue from tax evaders—which is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $10 billion to $25 billion a year—has real consequences. Our debt now, Minister, is over a trillion dollars, the government's debt-to-GDP ratio will exceed 50% and the government has shown little, if any, ability to control spending. Despite raising taxes on many hard-working Canadians and business owners, it has shown also a very poor record of increasing revenue. In fact, it has zero record of it. No doubt that's partially due, as I mentioned, to billionaire evaders and Liberal friends avoiding taxes.
Will the minister finally come clean today and announce when the Liberals will be putting a tax on one of the few tax shelters left to middle-class Canadians—that being their homes? Otherwise, why would they be tracking the sale of principal residency, if not to eventually tax it?
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, as I said, combatting tax fraud in Canada and abroad is a priority for our government. In fact, we see that budget 2021 includes numerous investments and also policy proposals that have been very well received and are based on the hard work done by CRA in this matter.
I do hope, Mr. Chair, that my colleague will vote in favour of our budget so we are able to move forward and serve Canadians well.
View Philip Lawrence Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you, Minister.
I just want to ask some questions. As I said, not getting income from tax evaders has consequences. I have a couple of questions that I would just like numerical responses to.
How many CERB recipients have you identified as ineligible? How many millions of dollars have you collected from fraudulent CERB benefits?
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, I want to tell my colleague that before we can add up the amounts that were allocated to the Canada emergency response benefit, we have to wait for tax season to be over. We will then be able to collect the information.
However, I have to tell you that our government was very proud to be able to help Canadians at the beginning of the pandemic. I want to tell my colleague that it would have cost Canadians a lot more if our government had not stepped in.
View Pat Kelly Profile
CPC (AB)
Thank you for being here, Minister. It's nice to see you again.
In 2018, the Auditor General reported that the manner in which your agency treated tax filers with offshore accounts was different from its treatment of Canadians without offshore accounts.
Is that still the case at your agency?
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank my colleague for his question.
In 2013‑2014, the CRA did 43 audits relating to tax evasion. In 2019‑2020, 1,100 audits were done. We can clearly see that all the work we have done is bearing fruit.
View Pat Kelly Profile
CPC (AB)
I'm sorry, Madam Minister. That wasn't my question.
Minister, I asked you whether your agency still treats Canadians with offshore accounts differently from tax filers without offshore accounts?
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, the Canada Revenue Agency treats all Canadians equitably. That is one of the CRA's principles. The clients are truly central to our concerns and we try to offer them the best service possible, that is, fair service. We make sure that everyone pays their fair share.
View Pat Kelly Profile
CPC (AB)
Do you think it's fair for a Canadian without an offshore tax avoidance plan or offshore accounts to automatically lose a deduction if they can't produce documents within 90 days, whereas a Canadian with an offshore account is given months or years to comply with a request for information?
This is right from the Auditor General. I'm not making this up. It was three years ago that this report came out. I want to know if that's still the practice. Based on your last answer, I would really like you to comment and tell us whether you think that's fair.
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, our government respects the independence of the CRA. My role is not to order the CRA to undertake audits and I do not intervene in those audits.
That is really part of the CRA's process, unlike the Conservatives' approach. If my colleague wants more information about administrative matters, I can ask Mr. Gallivan, the assistant commissioner, to answer him.
Ted Gallivan
View Ted Gallivan Profile
Ted Gallivan
2021-06-22 16:19
Thank you.
Factually, a more complex audit will take more time, and factually, when the CRA has the onus of proof, it needs to gather evidence that will withstand a challenge in court. It does take more time because we think it's in the Crown's best interest.
That's what the OAG observed. They observed, in the more complex cases, that we did allow more time to get the information, because we needed that information to collect the taxes owed.
View Pat Kelly Profile
CPC (AB)
The Auditor General observed that this was actually unfair, that Canadians who didn't have offshore accounts were automatically denied a claim or deduction if they couldn't produce documents in 90 days.
What I would like to know is whether there has been any progress on providing more fairness to Canadian taxpayers who will automatically lose their deduction in 90 days, compared with offshore filers who can defy with impunity a request for documents from the CRA.
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, Mr. Kelly is asking questions about administrative matters. My role, as Minister of National Revenue, is not administrative, unlike the Conservatives when they were in power and did not hesitate to try to intervene in the integrity of the tax system. If Mr. Kelly wants to obtain accurate information in answer to his questions, Mr. Gallivan will provide him with it.
Ted Gallivan
View Ted Gallivan Profile
Ted Gallivan
2021-06-22 16:20
Again, I would say the discrepancy in time allowed is driven by the complexity of the case and the burden of proof, as opposed to any type of preference or softness on the part of CRA.
View Julie Dzerowicz Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
I offer a warm welcome to the minister for being here today.
Mr. Gallivan, welcome to you in returning to our committee.
There's a false narrative put forward by the opposition that our federal Liberal government has done nothing to tackle evasion and tax avoidance. We heard from Mr. Gallivan that we've actually made a significant investment since 2015 in terms of tackling tax avoidance and tax evasion. There has been $444 million invested in 2016, $523 million in 2017, $90.6 million in 2018, $150.8 million in 2019, and an additional $304 million in this year's budget.
Minister, we also heard, as you mentioned, that this significant investment of over $1 billion has resulted in over $5 billion of identified additional tax avoidance coming into our coffers.
We've also heard that there's the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, who do a bit of a ranking. They're the ones who broke the Panama papers and they've ranked Canada nine out of 80 in the world. We're among the top in terms of actually being able to tackle these issues on a global scale. Therefore, I want to give a huge thanks to you for your leadership, and a huge thanks for the leadership at the CRA, for the extraordinary efforts and work that they have done. Thank you for that.
To truly appreciate our efforts and how far we've actually come, can you take a few moments to add a little context to our government's efforts to fund the fight against tax evasion, by describing the situation at the Canada Revenue Agency when you took over as minister in 2015, after nearly a decade of Conservative cuts?
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her question.
I agree that combatting tax evasion is a difficult task for the government, a serious and complex one that takes time. We are tackling these very profound problems and very wealthy people who have the resources to hire the best lawyers and the best teams.
On the question of the Panama Papers, the government has invested over a billion dollars and has identified 900 Canadians. More than 200 audits have been completed and 160 audits are underway.
We have given the CRA the tools and resources to fight tax evasion. That fight was not a priority for the Conservative government, as was even confirmed publicly by one of their former ministers of national revenue, Jean-Pierre Blackburn.
View Julie Dzerowicz Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you so much, Minister. My next question is the following.
As we speak here today, the Conservative Party is filibustering budget 2021. They're not only putting the continuation of COVID emergency support programs in danger, but they're also putting in danger a lot of the additional dollars.
I mentioned the $304.2 million allocated in budget 2021. They're putting all of that at risk in our fight to continue to tackle tax evasion and tax avoidance. Can you go into detail about why passing budget 2021 is critical and how the fight against tax evasion would be harmed if the Conservatives continue to hold it up?
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, my colleague is asking me an important question.
In fact, all the work that has been started by the Canada Revenue Agency has to continue. In budget 2021, we propose to eliminate the loopholes that allow people to avoid paying taxes in Canada. We are providing an additional $304 million to modernize and improve the CRA's capacity to fight tax evasion. For the next steps, we want to modernize and improve Canada's general anti-avoidance rules.
I often hear the Conservatives talk about “the Liberals' pals” and it makes my hair stand on end. Because I have been at the Canada Revenue Agency since 2016, I have been able to see that it is the Conservatives who protect their pals. The Conservatives are the ones who don't want the wealthiest people, the ones with the means to pay lawyers and delay the processes, to pay their fair share. They are the ones who protect their pals, Mr. Chair, not the Liberals, who want everyone to pay their fair share.
View Peter Julian Profile
NDP (BC)
I raised a point of order, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives have not been in power for six years. We would like the minister to answer our questions rather than making partisan speeches.
View Wayne Easter Profile
Lib. (PE)
Mr. Julian, that's not a point of order. That's debate.
You have about 50 seconds left between the two of you.
Ms. Dzerowicz.
View Julie Dzerowicz Profile
Lib. (ON)
Maybe based on that question, as was already mentioned, over $1 billion has been invested into taxing tax avoidance and tax evasion, and that is recent.
I would give an opportunity in the remaining seconds to ask the minister to describe the impact of our government's investments in the fight against tax evasion.
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, in 2019‑2020, more than 1,100 audits were done, unlike what was done in the past. For example, in 2013‑2014, 43 audits were done. So we see that the work is bearing fruit.
Thank you.
View Gabriel Ste-Marie Profile
BQ (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Like the minister, I too want to wish you a happy birthday, Mr. Chair.
I am going to start with a statement. Then I will ask my questions.
Hello, Minister. Thank you very much for being here this afternoon.
The committee has already been working on the problems of tax evasion and tax avoidance for some time, in particular on the tax schemes put in place by KPMG, providing a financial vehicle to enable certain of its clients to reduce their tax payable. In light of the internal documents relating to this plan provided to the committee by KPMG on May 17, 2016, this could be a form of tax evasion, so of something illegal.
All these problems are extremely complex, as you acknowledged and pointed out in your speech. Today, for example, we can read in La Presse that data from the Canada Revenue Agency show that its recent efforts to combat tax evasion by the richest Canadians have not led to any charges or convictions. The same kind of article can be read on CTV.
Experts have appeared here to tell us that there is a feeling of impunity toward the government and the CRA, among the users of the tax havens and the tax law experts who create their schemes. We have been told that to put an end to this kind of behaviour, the United States brought out the heavy artillery to deal with KPMG: investigations by the Internal Revenue Service, threats of searches and of charges of obstructing justice, penalties, criminal charges of fraud and conspiracy against the firm and its officers, and threats to charge the firm with being a criminal organization. Here, there has been none of that. Instead, the CRA has proposed voluntary disclosures and still nothing has been resolved with the clients who did not agree.
The experts reminded us that it is not possible to control what we can't see. Unfortunately, as you said in your testimony, the Canada Revenue Agency does not have access to all the information for doing these audits. For example, KPMG keeps going to court so it doesn't have to share its information with the CRA. The experts denounce the appearance of impunity and unfairness for the rich clients and the companies that create these schemes. They conceal their information from the CRA and contest the requests in court. At the committee, it is extremely difficult to get answers to our questions, to shed light on this entire matter. There are even witnesses who refuse to appear, in spite of the summons issued by the committee. These are no jokes!
I repeat: it is important to shed light on this entire matter and get to the bottom of things. We have to be able to put in place laws, regulations, processes and guidelines to prevent any form of tax evasion. That is why I am asking you, as Minister of National Revenue, to initiate a public inquiry into the matter of the schemes created by KPMG that enabled Canadian taxpayers to collect money in the form of gifts or otherwise, money that was not included in the tax returns of the recipients, from companies in the Isle of Man or any other country, as section 231.4 of the Income Tax Act empowers you to do. I believe the committee could also adopt a motion to that effect a little later.
Do you want to initiate a public inquiry, Minister, please?
Thank you.
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank my colleague for all of his preamble and his long question. I have sincere sympathy for the victims of fraud and I understand how much it can affect their lives. However, I can say that under the provisions of the Income Tax Act, I can't comment on any specific case. As my colleague knows very well, I cannot give and I will never give the CRA any instructions concerning criminal investigations.
As is the role of our government, my role is to provide tools and resources so that the CRA, which is autonomous, can do its own work. Out of respect for the obvious principles of judicial independence, politicians must not ever interfere in investigations. That would be really very inappropriate.
View Gabriel Ste-Marie Profile
BQ (QC)
If I may, that is not at all what I asked. The committee's limitations are clear, and the only solution, the only tool, for shedding light on the entirety of KPMG's offshore activities is the public inquiry.
We are not talking about an investigation before the courts. You, as the Minister of National Revenue, are the only one who has this power under the Income Tax Act; you can ask for a public inquiry to be held to get to the bottom of things and shed light on the situation. In my opinion, that is what should be done.
I will ask you again. Please, can you ask for a public inquiry to be held into this entire matter so we can get to the bottom of things?
Thank you.
View Diane Lebouthillier Profile
Lib. (QC)
Mr. Chair, as you all know, committees are independent. You manage your own business.
What I am seeing at present is that my colleague wants to play police officer. I invite him to give up his seat as a member and apply for a position as an investigator with the RCMP, where there are vacant positions. He would probably be happier there than in his present position.
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