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Results: 136 - 150 of 2083
View Martin Shields Profile
CPC (AB)
View Martin Shields Profile
2021-06-04 13:30
Okay.
My question is to the staff, to ask them how they would view this dual approach in the sense of those who voluntarily...and those who don't. Does the heritage department have an opinion? They've seen this amendment for a while. I'd be interested in knowing what they would think of this dual approach.
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-04 13:30
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for the question, Mr. Shields. I would point out a couple of things. The first one is with respect to the reintroduction of language along the lines of proposed section 4.1.
The challenge for the committee is that this language is in a certain degree of tension with amendments that the committee has now passed. One of the challenges, as the committee may now recall, is that it has passed some language in proposed section 9.1 that speaks specifically about programs that are uploaded to an online undertaking that provides a social media service. Implicitly, there is acknowledgement that the jurisdiction of the CRTC extends to that programming. With the reintroduction of proposed section 4.1, you can see that there's a certain amount of tension now with that language that the committee previously endorsed.
The legal situation of how that would play out is extremely unclear. A court or the CRTC would presumably try to reconcile those two things and find a way for both of those provisions to stand. That could be done by reading down certain provisions of the act or trying to find a way to make sense of those two things. I think the committee should be aware that it may be creating a situation of a degree of legal uncertainty.
With respect to the question of how it would work in practice, if a social media creator wanted to opt out of that, again, it's unclear how that would be operationalized by the CRTC at this juncture. On the one hand, the committee has endorsed language that gives the CRTC certain powers to promote the discoverability of those creators, and then, on the other hand, if this language is passed, there is a suggestion that they could potentially opt out of that. Again, the legal situation of how those two things would work together is quite unclear.
View Martin Shields Profile
CPC (AB)
View Martin Shields Profile
2021-06-04 13:35
Thank you.
Again, I appreciate Mr. Manly in the sense of bringing what he believes is a sense of compromise to deal with some of the issues that we were dealing with. I thank him for doing that.
I'm just following up again with our department. I heard two things. One was that the legislation, in the sense of amendments that have been passed.... I believe he is saying that the CRTC would view the challenge of.... They are all inclusive of all of the social media platforms and the creators. They would view that legislation as inclusive. If we adopt this amendment, it would create sort of a challenge for them to understand how they wouldn't be dealing with those who are not included. That's the first part of what I think the department was telling me.
I think the second part was that the department had a challenge trying to comprehend how the heritage department, through the CRTC, would deal with the opting in or opting out. I think that he expressed that if there's discoverability, it would be the discoverability of those who opted in and maybe not those who opted out. He had a concern. I believe he was suggesting that could arise.
Of course, that leads me to the same conclusion. If the CRTC is looking at those for discoverability more than they are of others that are Canadian, that creates the same type of process. I think the department would be somewhat stating the concern that many of us have had, which is that in doing what Mr. Manly has said—volunteering in or not—those who volunteered in with discoverability automatically would be rated higher because of that discoverability.
I think that's problematic and why we were extremely concerned that this resolution, in the sense of 4.1, will now do the same thing, which is that for those Canadian creators and culture people participating in it, there is going to be a mechanism within the CRTC that ranks and rates the discoverability of some more than others.
I think this amendment points out exactly the challenge. I think department staff is basically saying they have a concern about those who are opting in versus who are opting out. The whole process of a mechanism of opting in is one of the challenges that we have in the sense of creating programs. It's sort of like with the $5,000 for the house renovation. When 30,000 people applied to begin with, the website fell apart.
It's an interesting thought. Again, Mr. Manly, I really appreciate your looking at a solution. You have a long history of working in the industry and know it well. I really appreciate your looking at another avenue that might resolve that freedom of speech and leave those who choose not to be involved in one. I think that's significant in what you're attempting to do here.
I think the challenge, from what I'm hearing from the department, is that it may create that same thing that we believe has been created by removing that piece now.
I'll leave it at that.
Thank you.
View Alain Rayes Profile
CPC (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to start by thanking Mr. Manly for explaining his amendment, because it was clear he had concerns about the freedom of expression of certain creators and Canadians who post content on the web. I think he has the right idea in mind. Like us, he is trying to remedy Bill C‑10's failings.
I do have a few questions for the experts, though. Perhaps Mr. Manly can chime in as well.
As per Mr. Manly's amendment, the end of new paragraph 9.2(a) reads “except where the Canadian creator of a program has voluntarily chosen to be subject to the Act for discoverability purposes”.
I have to wonder because the explanatory note provided to the minister by justice officials does not refer solely to Canadian creators of programs, as we imagine them when we think of traditional broadcasters. The purpose is to apply the act to digital broadcasters in the same way it applies to traditional broadcasters.
Like a number of experts, former senior CRTC officials and other Canadians, the Conservatives are concerned about all Canadians who upload content on social media platforms or use web-based applications, whether for exercise or gaming. The explanatory note even states that, under Bill C‑10, the CRTC could possibly regulate audiobooks and podcasts. It refers not just to Canadian creators of programs as we think of them, but also to anyone who currently downloads or transmits information via web-based platforms and applications.
How will the government or CRTC make sure 38 million Canadians have prior knowledge that they can voluntarily choose to be subject to the act for discoverability purposes? That is my first question for the experts.
Second, who will that obligation fall to? The CRTC or the government? Am I mistaken to think that, should it be adopted, Mr. Manly's amendment would give rise to an obligation to inform all Canadians of this option?
Mr. Manly can give his take, if he likes, but I'd like to hear from Mr. Ripley first. Actually, Mr. Chair, you can decide who should have the floor.
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-04 13:43
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank Mr. Rayes for his question.
The answer is that it is up to the CRTC to oversee the matter and put a system in place, given that responsibility for implementing Canada's broadcasting system falls on the CRTC. Operationalizing that will certainly pose challenges.
On one hand, the committee proposes giving the CRTC the power to make orders regarding the discoverability of creators, and on the other, Mr. Manly's amendment would give people the option to be subject to the regime.
Once again, the two proposals seem to be conflicting. The CRTC is the one responsible for establishing a mechanism to make creators aware of their choice to be subject to the act. Operationally, implementation certainly poses a challenge.
View Kevin Waugh Profile
CPC (SK)
Thank you, Chair.
Welcome to the officials of the Department of Canadian Heritage.
I, too, want to thank Mr. Manly for his efforts in bringing forward amendments to the Broadcasting Act. As you've all talked about, it hasn't been updated for 10 years. I think for the last several months we forgot about the conventional broadcasters. We've dipped into the digital world, and when we first started this it was all about the conventional broadcasters, who are suffering badly in this country.
Many radio and television stations are leaving the airwaves almost monthly. Mr. Manly would know that because he was a part of community radio for many years. He's a producer. It gets harder and harder to sell a product when there is black on TV channels. I look at B.C. and see that all the radio stations out there have gone dark over the last year, and he's seen that too.
I want to thank Mr. Manly for talking about the point system, because it's very complicated. You need the score of six out 10. When we talk about Canadians.... Where is it being shot? Where is it being produced? Who are the actors or actresses involved? Then there's the MAPL system. Those are the discussions we can't forget about here in committee, Mr. Chair. I want to thank Mr. Manly for bringing that out, because he's been involved in community radio for decades, and as a producer he gives us some insight into that.
To the department officials, this is an interesting proposition, because Ian Scott, the current chair of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, came to the committee on March 26. Now what we're seeing, and the departmental officials have acknowledged this today, is that this will be an operational challenge. Since proposed section 4.1 was eliminated in April, Mr. Scott hasn't had the ability to talk about the CRTC.
When Mr. Scott was in committee and I asked him point-blank whether he had the capability to enforce Bill C-10, the first answer coming out of his mouth was “yes” but that he had to go to Treasury Board. We all know what that's going to be, asking for more money on behalf of the CRTC to operate this. It is a concern.
Mr. Ripley, I'm just going to ask you this, because like I said, on March 26 we had the CRTC in front of us, and then we've seen all of these changes and operational challenges. What you've told us here today will be front and centre with the CRTC. Could you elaborate on those operational challenges, not only money-wise but with the capacity of the CRTC?
You have heard me and Mr. Manly talk about the capacity of the CRTC for years. They give the seven-year licences and then walk away, and then come back six and a half years later to have a peek. When I hear operational challenges tied into the CRTC, wow, I see a red flag.
I will leave it up to the department officials. I would like you to explain the operational challenges to the committee as we move forward with this amendment. What are the operational challenges that you, as a department, see the CRTC will have to be aware of going forward here?
This is for anyone in the department.
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-04 14:12
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Waugh, for the question and for giving me the opportunity to clarify.
My comments to Mr. Rayes were specifically with respect to the proposal on the table by Mr. Manly to introduce a mechanism whereby creators could opt in to a discoverability framework set up by the CRTC with the implication that some creators would be outside of that. The point I was making is that this type of framework raises operational challenges for both the CRTC, which would have to think about how you actually put in place a mechanism where a creator could put up their hand and say, I want in, and others could say, I'm not in, and at the service level on a service like YouTube, which would have to navigate how you actually put that into practice in real life.
That was the point I was trying to make. I think just stepping back a level, the proposal that the committee had previously looked at and adopted with respect to proposed section 9.1, to reiterate that, the first step when it comes to thinking about how to move forward with a discoverability framework will be the CRTC doing a regulatory hearing on what makes sense.
Again, I think there are a variety of different ways we could imagine that social media services could help raise the profile or visibility of Canadian creators. Part of the job of the CRTC will be balancing those interests of creators and social media services, who are going to say they have very real practical limits in terms of what they're able to do and here's how the service operates.
Again, my comment was not so much at a general level but recognizing that the committee has previously adopted those powers, including the discoverability one, and is suggesting that it be given to the CRTC, while what Mr. Manly has put on the table is something that has a degree of tension with that. That's what I was trying to highlight, because it gives the ability for some people to be a part of it and other people not. I think it's just very challenging to think about how that would be put into practice day to day, given the nature of social media.
That was the point I was trying to make, Mr. Waugh.
View Scott Aitchison Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank Mr. Ripley for those final few comments. I automatically thought “cue the lobbyists”, because there are nine months to try to influence things to make them the way you want them to be.
I actually want to focus specifically on that issue.... In general, it relates, I think, to my problem overall with big government programs. The bigger the government, the more interference and the greater the chance for undue influence. Mr. Waugh quite capably raised that issue. I actually want to ask the question of Mr. Manly, specifically, because he has some experience with the system as it exists today. I have absolutely zero experience with the traditional broadcasting realm.
If I could start with this question, I'm curious to know, Mr. Manly, in the process of trying to get recognized as Canadian content in the traditional system, were you aware of situations where high-paid lobbyists were clearly able to get their client's product broadcast somewhere, ahead of a smaller operation like yours?
View Paul Manly Profile
GP (BC)
That's exactly how the system works, actually. The number of productions that get produced in this country for the traditional broadcasters by producers.... It's about 90% to 95% of the same people who produce over and over again. To break into that system is very difficult. It's actually a small number of commissioning editors who determine what gets commissioned in this country by CTV, Global or any of the provincial broadcasters, or CBC, so it's a difficult thing to break into.
I just want to correct Mr. Waugh, as I've spent a very small amount of time in community radio. I actually worked on hundreds of TV episodes in the broadcast industry. I've produced and directed documentaries of my own and commissioned documentaries. I have worked in artist management and done record deals, international deals, international licensing agreements for artists who have succeeded all across the planet. I've done very well through the CanCon system, which helped them finance tours into the United States, because they could afford to get in a van and drive across the States based on the money they made in Canada by having radio play in Canada.
There is a system in place that is stacked towards companies that work very closely with the big broadcasters. I have produced lots of films that have just gone on to YouTube or on to my own pay-per-view through Vimeo, or other avenues. I have other things that are licensed here and there in other parts of the world. When I have had a broadcaster pick something up, then I go through the CRTC process of certification. It's a fairly straightforward process.
In terms of the comments by Mr. Ripley about how the social media could work with this, well, when you upload a video to YouTube, you can set a number of tags on there. I can say my name, where it was produced and what the key subject areas are. I don't know if anybody here has done web design, but it's a pretty straightforward process to add another line in there asking if this is Canadian content and if you have a CanCon, a CRTC certification number. When you're doing searches online, on YouTube, it would simply say, “Are you interested in Canadian content? Click here.”
These kinds of things can be done quite easily through web design. It's not rocket science anymore. I did do some work in computer engineering as well, way back in the day. It's not a black box. It's not a huge problem.
Those are my comments. Thank you.
View Martin Shields Profile
CPC (AB)
View Martin Shields Profile
2021-06-04 14:30
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a question for Mr. Ripley and Mr. Manly.
Mr. Ripley, yes, I might be from Alberta, but I'm looking for classical instrumental, not that other type of music you might have referred to in reference to somebody coming from the west.
Mr. Manly, I'm going to get down to a numbers figure. Maybe you can't answer it, but maybe you can generalize. If these types of amendments we're talking about are approved, CRTC is then faced with, as you said, a conundrum. Has there been any discussion, if you're talking about implementing this at the CRTC in nine months, of cost and the number of employees it would take to do it? They have a conundrum to resolve if they implement this amendment.
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-04 14:32
I apologize. I wasn't clear if the question was for me or for Mr. Manly.
Thank you for the question, Mr. Shields.
Indeed, there is a fair amount of regulatory work that needs to be completed over the course of nine months. From the get-go, the government has always acknowledged that the legislative piece is the first piece and the details do indeed get worked out through regulation. Nine months is the minister's stated intent, recognizing we need to give them some time to do that but also recognizing that, as the committee has pointed out, the Canadian broadcasting sector currently operates under a certain set of rules to which foreign online undertakings are not subject. They are really keen to ensure that there's a fair regulatory framework across the board.
The intention moving forward is that, like the current system, the CRTC's regulatory operational expenses would be recovered ultimately from the industry. The CRTC imposes what are called part I fees. Those get recovered. The idea is that moving forward, just like CTV and TVA and company have to pay in to the operation of the system, online undertakings such as Netflix or Spotify, etc., will need to contribute to the operation of the CRTC.
View Anthony Housefather Profile
Lib. (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As I was pointing out, we are now incessantly prolonging debate on an amendment that is going to be defeated. The simple goal is to stop the committee from doing its work. I think Canadians are starting to see that.
It's exceptionally frustrating, as a member of this committee, to see a committee that used to work very well descend to this level, which I think has gone far below the level any parliamentary committee should operate at. I just voice my disappointment. That really explains why I think we need to go to time allocation at this point.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
View Rachael Harder Profile
CPC (AB)
Thank you so much.
Mr. Chair, interestingly enough, the member who just spoke before me brought up a really good point, and that is that he feels the members of this committee—in particular, I think referencing the members who are on the Conservative side of the table—are frustrating the process. I can understand that he feels maybe a little bit frustrated by that process.
Nevertheless, there is something very important that is going on here. In the same way that he felt it was necessary to clarify that for the Canadian public who might be watching today, I feel that it's very important to further clarify.
Right now at committee, we are discussing Bill C-10, clause by clause, which means that we're going through it line by line and we're determining which parts of this bill are great and should move forward and which parts of this bill may be questionable. Perhaps there are some that need to be amended. Maybe there are even some subamendments that are necessary in order to help strengthen this piece of legislation. In addition to that, there may be some parts of the bill that need to come out altogether.
View Martin Shields Profile
CPC (AB)
View Martin Shields Profile
2021-06-04 15:01
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There are two things. One, because of what Mr. Housefather said, I can call it a point of order. I don't really like to do that, but I will. I've known Mr. Housefather for a while and I find him very honourable. I find him a very good politician and parliamentarian. I very much respect him.
I ask questions, and I ask lots of questions at times. I'm looking for information. To suggest what I am doing and have done for many years here on committees.... I had a good debate with the parliamentary secretary last night in the House on this particular topic, in the late show, and I appreciated that. That was a debate where we both stated some obvious positions. To suggest that I am not looking for clarification, not looking for opportunities for discussion, getting feedback and learning more about what these things will do, I take exception to that.
I know MP Housefather's an honourable gentleman and MP. I appreciate that he's frustrated, but I take exception to his labelling of what I do as a parliamentarian as damaging and harmful to the process of democracy. It at times can be messy, but it's democracy. I object to the comments that he made.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I would move for adjournment.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Okay. We'll go to a vote.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)
The Chair: The meeting is adjourned. We'll see everybody at the usual time on Monday.
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