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Results: 1 - 100 of 1985
View Colin Carrie Profile
CPC (ON)
View Colin Carrie Profile
2021-06-21 12:00
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Therrien, I want to thank you for a number of things.
First of all, thank you for accepting an extension of your term. I think your institutionalized knowledge right now is extremely important. One of the things I'm getting a lot of emails about is trust—Canadians trusting the government. I think some of it's warranted, and some of it may not be warranted. I see you as somebody who is standing up for Canadian privacy rights. You mentioned privacy as a human right. Constituents of mine are concerned about that.
I would like to address a couple of those concerns with you now.
Mr. Barrett brought up the vaccination passport and whatever that's going to be in Canada. I was a little disturbed to hear that though you've been consulted, you really haven't been brought in on whatever it will turn out to be. There are meetings later in the week, you said, but the government is already making announcements on it today.
I'm going to be doing a survey in Oshawa on it, because I'm getting emails from some people who think the idea of some type of a vaccine passport is reasonable and sensible. Others say it's a bad precedent and are concerned about civil liberties and their privacy. With the whole thing about censorship and Bill C-10, people seem to be concerned.
Do you have some advice about what we could put in place to make sure that we talk about the Canadians who do have privacy issues or perhaps religious, health or conscience issues as we move forward with this type of vaccine passport?
View Martin Champoux Profile
BQ (QC)
View Martin Champoux Profile
2021-06-21 11:58
You lowered the average, but you recovered nicely afterwards, and so much the better.
What I am getting at is how important investing in culture is, and you talked about that.
We just completed a study on Bill C‑10, where we were trying to showcase the value of our artists and content creators. We often hear the rhetoric that artists are living off grants and not bringing in any money. But that is completely false.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this. You said that investing in culture is profitable in terms of the big picture. However, that message is not getting across.
View Julie Dabrusin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
What I absolutely disagree with is the premise underlying the motion, about Netflix facing exclusions. I think most people who are Netflix subscribers have probably received a notice, in fact, of the company's intention to be contributing towards Canadian taxes. Regardless of that part, I actually think that in the interests of transparency, I would support this motion, but I disagree with the premise and think that there are some inaccuracies that would need to be addressed. Perhaps when everyone takes a good look at C-10, as well as their Netflix notifications and the actual budget implementation act, that might be clarified.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
That was very generous of you.
I'm not moving off of the issue about sports; I will get back to that in just a few moments. Right now, though, I will give you the broad context of what we're looking at over the next little while, upcoming studies or ones already before the committee.
The supplementary estimates (A) are to be considered, as we normally do. The seventh allotted day, Thursday, June 19, is really our deadline for reporting them back. It's too late to do votes on supplementary estimates (A), as Bill C-10 took a big chunk of the time, but we can study the estimates as subject matter. I'll just leave that right there, that we can do that if you so desire.
Let's get into the motion on anti-Asian racism that was adopted on March 26. I don't have to go through the whole motion. It was just talked about. I will say, however, that there was one stipulation in it that said, “no later than 180 calendar days from the adoption of this motion; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response.” Now, 180 calendar days from the adoption of the motion on March 26 is Tuesday, September 21. Please bear that in mind. That's basically when we come back. I forget the actual date.
On to the next one, which was adopted on April 12:
That the Committee devote at least one meeting before the summer recess to hear from witnesses on the continuing challenges for publishers, creators and artists as it pertains to fair compensation for their work in...educational publishing in Canada.
That's number three.
We also have this motion, which was adopted on June 11. It reads, in part, as follows:
That the Committee invite officials from the Department of Canadian Heritage to testify about the funding for the discovery of the remains of 215 Indigenous children on the grounds of a former residential school in Kamloops....
That was from Mr. Waugh.
We also have the ongoing issue of Facebook, and the correspondence we've had since our summons to Mr. Zuckerberg, about his appearing before committee. I can brief you on that so far, and perhaps Mr. Housefather can as well, as he's been involved. There is that issue.
View Martin Champoux Profile
BQ (QC)
View Martin Champoux Profile
2021-06-14 11:27
You look happy to be giving the floor to someone, Mr. Chair!
I have some questions and proposals that could be discussed.
My first question is about the study on anti-Asian racism. I remember very well the context in which we passed the motion on this issue. Obviously, we're all very committed to completing the study, but didn't think at the time it was proposed that Bill C‑10 would take us so long.
On the one hand, I'd like to know what will happen if we don't meet the September 21 deadline. Since we aren't likely to be in session this summer and we don't really know what will happen this fall, what would the consequences of not meeting that deadline be?
At the same time, can we commit to giving this study priority upon returning to the House and request an extension on the deadline, given the circumstances and the fact that Bill C‑10 took longer to complete?
My second question is actually a proposal, and it has to do with Mr. Rayes and his expectations regarding copyright. Copyright is very important to me as well. We had made a promise to Mr. Rayes and to ourselves that we would deal with this issue, because it is urgent and needs to be addressed.
With respect to the issue of harassment and abuse in high-performance sport, I propose that we begin the study on Friday. We could call in officials and one to three representatives from sports federations that we would like to hear from as part of the study. On Monday, we could do the study we promised Mr. Rayes we would do on copyright.
This would make for a busy end to the committee's session, but an extremely efficient one as well.
I am throwing the proposal out there and comments are welcome.
We are also left with the September 21 deadline that we are unlikely to meet.
View Heather McPherson Profile
NDP (AB)
Certainly this is a topic that is very important to me, and it's very important to all members on this committee, I am sure, that we examine this. Unfortunately, as many have said, the work on Bill C-10 took much longer than we anticipated, and we have not been able to get to our other pieces of work.
The only thing I want to raise, which I think is important, is the motion Mr. Waugh brought forward regarding the minister visiting or the officials visiting with regard to the children who were found in Kamloops.
I say that because, of course, it's urgent; it's timely, and it's something we need to look at. I would not want the committee to let that fall off either, though I recognize that we are looking down the barrel of three meetings and that is all we have left together.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Okay. If we need to discuss it on Friday at the end, I'll clear a few minutes for that as well. Friday and Monday, I have specific deadlines, and obviously Wednesday. Honestly, if you have someone in mind, please send it to us as soon as possible, given the tight time frame we are under.
That being said, is there anything further?
On these two meetings, do you want to do the format that we ended with before Bill C-10, which was a two-hour meeting with no break, and let's say we have...? Well, it doesn't matter how many witnesses we have.
Would you rather do the two hours with all witnesses, or would you rather break it up, hour to hour, and then have different witnesses?
Mr. Champoux.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Welcome back, everyone, to clause-by-clause on Bill C-10 at the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.
To people listening to us, viewing us from afar on the web, on the Internet, you have my apologies. We had a technical problem there at the beginning. We are now overdue, obviously, but nevertheless here we are.
We're going to resume our consideration of clause-by-clause, under what we have received from the House of Commons and the procedure that we are going through.
Before I get into that, however, I want to address something that was raised by Mr. Waugh about a motion of his. I seemed to indicate on Friday that it would be okay. Unfortunately, in this case we cannot deal this since we are now under the ruling that came from the House. We're proceeding with the debate and the clause-by-clause consideration.
However, that being said, I just wanted to bring it up, because I wanted to assure you. Obviously, it fits within the confines of the 48 hours' rule. Therefore, when we finish with Bill C-10, and we have time left over, why doesn't the first order of business be your motion, once we are done?
Just to give everyone a heads-up, when we end we will go to Mr. Waugh's motion. You have received the motion. Please give it your due consideration before that meeting arrives. Following the finish of this particular bill, we'll go into Mr. Waugh's motion.
I think that's about it before we start.
I just also wanted to remind everyone about some of the rules we have here.
We cannot engage in debate. As we go through this there can be no amendments or subamendments, as directed by the majority of the House of Commons on a ruling that took place last week on time allocation.
The only time you will hear me talk more than perhaps you desire, nevertheless, is when I make a ruling on a particular amendment. All the amendments you received in your package will be discussed. If I need to make a ruling I will do so, and I will explain to the best of my ability as to why it is inadmissible.
I promise you, since there is no opportunity to talk about the particular motion by the person who moved it, I will pause—hopefully there will not be an awkward silence—and give time for all of you to consider, because you do have the option to appeal. You can challenge the chair's ruling.
We've already done that once, but I felt at the time I was probably moving a little bit too quickly, and for that I apologize. What I will do, if I have to make a ruling on inadmissibility, is that I will take a pause and you can decide whether you want to appeal that ruling.
Let's go back to where we were.
We are now moving—
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I will. I promise.
In the meantime, when it comes to challenging the chair, like I said, I have two ways to go. I can either stick with my original ruling or go the opposite way, which I did the last time. Further to that, I don't know what to tell you other than the fact that we can't allow debate and we can't allow amendments, and those are pretty crystal clear from the ruling that we received from the majority of the House.
I do thank you for your point of order, and I will look into it during the first break.
(On clause 8)
The Chair: That said, we left off at and are now at G-13(N).
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 8 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
(On clause 9)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
This brings us to CPC-10.1, put forward by Mr. Rayes.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 9 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
(On clause 10)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
The first one we are dealing with is PV-24. This is the first of the PV amendments. As I ruled earlier, the amendments from the Green Party are automatically deemed moved due to an order that we decided upon at the beginning of this Parliament.
I wish to discuss it.
PV-24 attempts to remove the discretionary power of the CRTC to make regulations when needed, to force the CRTC to make them in all cases referred to in proposed subsection 11.1(1) of the act. As a result, this power was not originally envisioned in Bill C-10 itself.
That being said, according to page 770 of [Technical difficulty—Editor] goes beyond the principle and scope of the bill.
I'll repeat how that works. This bill has been accepted at second reading, which means we accept the principle and the scope that the bill puts out there. This particular amendment goes beyond the principle and scope of the bill, which we've already voted on. Therefore, it exceeds the will of the House in this particular case.
I have to make a ruling that PV-24 is inadmissible.
I'll give you a moment to reflect. I hope everybody's well.
Now, if you go back to your hymn books, we'll move on to LIB-8, moved by Mr. Housefather.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Now we go to BQ-28, which was put forward by Mr. Champoux.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: This brings us to LIB-9.
I forgot to mention off the top, for anyone just joining us that when I say LIB and these titles, similar to what you would hear at bingo, essentially what this is.... LIB is an amendment put forward by the Liberal party. CPC would be one put forward by the Conservative members of the committee. BQ would be one put forward by the Bloc Québécois members. “NDP” followed by a number would be one from the New Democrat on the committee, and PV—Parti Vert—would be for amendments put forward and deemed moved by the Green Party, primarily Mr. Manly. Finally, G means that it's an amendment put forward by the government.
That being said, as I mentioned, we're on LIB-9, which was put forward by Mr. Housefather.
I have a note before you start [Technical difficulty—Editor ]. I'll say this slowly. If LIB-9 is adopted, BQ-29 becomes moot, as they both contain the same provisions. They are similar enough that you are voting on both LIB-9 and BQ-29.
Officially, it's LIB-9 that we're voting on.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
That brings us to BQ-30, which was put forward by Mr. Champoux.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 10 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
(Clause 11 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
( On clause 12)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
We have some amendments for clause 12. We have BQ-31 put forward by Mr. Champoux, but there is a note. Before you vote, I want everyone to be aware that, if BQ-31 is adopted, then PV-25 becomes moot, as it contains the same provisions as BQ-31. That's PV-25, which would normally fall later, but it's similar to BQ-31, so essentially you're voting on both.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I declare the amendment negatived, and I declare the same for PV-25.
Those were the only amendments for clause 12. Therefore, we go directly to the clause vote.
(Clause 12 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Next we have new clause 12.1, in amendment G-14, which was put forward by Ms. Dabrusin.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I apologize. It was a straight-up clause.
The amendment was in the last one we carried, which was considered new clause 12.1.
(Clause 13 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
The Chair: Mr. Méla, thank you for pointing that out. Thank goodness for smart people.
With clause 13 carried, we now move on to the next amendment, which brings us to CPC-11.
View Alain Rayes Profile
CPC (QC)
I would like to know if it is possible to withdraw amendment CPC‑11, so that it will not be voted on. It is an amendment that I had tabled. I do not want to move a subamendment; I just want to know if I can withdraw it. I may need unanimous consent to do that.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Yes. I just declared what it was, so it is now deemed moved. Therefore, you'll have to have unanimous consent to withdraw it.
Does Mr. Rayes have unanimous consent to withdraw CPC-11? I don't hear any noes.
(Amendment withdrawn)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Thank you.
We are now going to CPC-11.1.
In CPC-11.1, we had a great deal of conversation about it. It does amend the Broadcasting Act in many ways. The amendment proposes to amend part of the act related to licences. In this particular case they were talking about amendments to licences [Technical difficulty—Editor] they rendered necessary by other adopted amendments. I just want to read you something that is on page 771 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice. It says:
…an amendment is inadmissible if it proposes to amend a statute that is not before the committee or a section of the parent Act, unless the latter is specifically amended by a clause of the bill.
What we're doing here is talking about the parent act in the case of the Broadcasting Act, but in C-10 it doesn't discuss this particular way of amending. Therefore, I have to rule it inadmissible as it goes beyond the principle and scope of the bill that we agreed to on Bill C-10, which was accepted in the House at second reading.
View Garnett Genuis Profile
CPC (AB)
Mr. Chair, I would like to challenge your ruling.
If I correctly understand the rules, they don't allow me to make arguments for that challenge.
Aimée Belmore
View Aimée Belmore Profile
Aimée Belmore
2021-06-11 13:18
The question is this: Shall the ruling of the chair be sustained?
If you vote yea, you agree with the chair and the ruling will be sustained. The amendment would be, I believe, outside the scope or inadmissible. It would sustain the chair's ruling.
If you vote nay, then you'll be able to vote on this amendment.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
The ruling is not sustained, and off we go to CPC-11.1.
Does everybody understand where we are now? I don't want to move on with anybody misunderstanding what's happening. These things happen fast. We're charting new territory. Do not be afraid to jump in if you have a quick question.
Okay. We are now going to CPC-11.1, as the ruling was not sustained. Therefore, we go to a vote.
(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Thank you very much.
We are on amendment CPC-11.2. This may sound eerily familiar. It proposes to amend the part of the act related to licences yet again. In the House of Commons Procedure and Practice—it's the third edition I'm speaking of, from page 771—it says:
...an amendment is inadmissible if it proposes to amend a statute that is not before the committee or a section of the parent Act, unless the latter is specifically amended by a clause in the bill.
I mentioned this was eerily familiar because it is the same as before. However, since it is before us, I am compelled to do it.
Since the part is related to licences, we're talking about section 22 of the Broadcasting Act, which is not being amended by C-10. As I mentioned earlier with the same genuine understanding, it was not touched upon in C-10. We voted that on principle. Therefore, the committee would be exceeding the scope of the bill if we amended something in the act that was not addressed by C-10, and here we are doing an amendment that wasn't.
I really hope that was clear enough for everybody. I'm not sure it was but nevertheless—
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
We have 11 nays against the ruling. Okay. Table for one for this chair—I'm kidding.
We will move on shall we. Shall CPC-11.2 carry?
(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I understand, Mr. Genuis. I understand that. I know. These are strange times indeed. Sometimes I feel the same way you do. However, I feel like I must....
I'll make this brief, if that helps:
...an amendment is inadmissible if it proposes to amend a statute that is not before the committee or a section of the parent Act, unless the latter is specifically amended by a clause of the bill.
Again, this pertains to changes in the Broadcasting Act in section 22. Therefore, I cannot allow this to be admissible. I deem it to be inadmissible.
What say you?
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I'm afraid you can't do that, sir. We have strict orders from the House. Again, I mentioned to you earlier about dealing with the House.
Right now I have to go to the vote, as the challenge was done. Once I make a ruling like that and it's been challenged and overturned, I have to go straight to a vote.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Welcome back, everybody.
Mr. Genuis, thank you for your intervention. As I suspected, yes, but I'll just further explain why it is we're doing this in the case of overturning a challenge on a ruling and not in the case of an subamendment that you're putting forward.
When it comes to the motion itself, the first part talks about the five-hour debate that has expired. That's fine. That's been satisfied. In the second part of the motion that came from the House, we have to go by the strict orders that were given to us, and I bring your attention, if you have it in front of you, to the last part of the sentence, “in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or further amendment.”
What I did earlier is I ruled, a challenge was made and it was overturned, but these are regarding amendments that already exist. Either they were deemed moved by the Green Party or they were put forward when a challenge was made, but these are all amendments that were previously placed with us. Therefore, that applies, because there is nothing in this motion that considers options of motions that were already handed in to us.
What it does say, quite explicitly, is this at the end, again, “forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment”, which is what you are proposing, which I have to rule as out of order. In which case, I now have to go—
Philippe Méla
View Philippe Méla Profile
Philippe Méla
2021-06-11 13:40
Thank you, Mr. Chair and Mr. Genuis.
I think there are two things to consider. There is the five-hour mark, before and after. What the chair did at the arrival of the five-hour mark was basically to interpret what the motion of the House was saying in terms of how to consider the amendments present in the package, where they were either deemed moved or were just in the package, staying there, and what to do with them.
Since the motion of the House is silent on these amendments, the chair made two rulings. The first one was on the amendments from the Green Party. Those ones are, generally speaking, deemed moved. They were considered by the chair and there was no overturning of that ruling.
Then the chair made a second ruling considering the rest of the amendments. He proposed that they would be not proposed by the committee, and the committee overturned that decision. That's why we are now voting on all the rest of the amendments, plus the Green Party amendments.
Now, to your question on adding subamendments at the present time, that is clearly specified in the motion of the House. In the last part of the paragraph, it says:
...and, in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment.
There is before the five-hour mark, and after. Clearly, we are past the five-hour mark. Therefore, no other amendment can be proposed—or subamendment, for that matter.
In this case, I would simply suggest that you bring it to the floor of the House, because basically you can't appeal an order of the House.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Mr. Genuis, I appreciate your comments, I truly do. I think maybe you want to bring it up with the House—you're certainly entitled to do that—but this is our interpretation of how we have to proceed based on the motion we have received from the House on this time allocation motion. I thank you for that.
We now go on to LIB-9.1.
Shall LIB-9.1 carry? Seeing no push-back, I declare LIB-9.1 carried.
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: Now we're moving on to clauses 14 to 17. There are no amendments, so I will call for the votes.
(Clauses 14 to 17 inclusive agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Welcome back, everybody.
(On clause 18)
The Chair: We left off at clause 18, so we're starting with PV-26.
I need to say this about PV-26 before we proceed any further.
Bill C-10 amends the Broadcasting Act to provide for the Governor in Council to be able to review a decision made by the CRTC under section 9 of the act. The amendment expands this power to the orders that the CRTC may make under proposed section 9.1 of the act, which is not envisioned in the bill. Again, we go back to page 770 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, regarding an amendment being beyond the scope of a bill.
PV-26 expands the power of the Governor in Council to cabinet and that is beyond the scope of the bill. Therefore, I have to rule that PV-26 is inadmissible.
Danielle Widmer
View Danielle Widmer Profile
Danielle Widmer
2021-06-11 14:08
If a member agrees with the ruling, the vote should be yes. If a member disagrees with the ruling, the vote should be no.
(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 8; yeas 3)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
We now go to PV-26.
If PV-26 is adopted, NDP-13 cannot be moved as it is identical. If PV-26 is negatived, so is NDP-13 for the same reason.
If PV-26 is adopted, BQ-32 cannot be moved due to a line conflict. Essentially, if PV-26 is adopted, BQ-32 becomes problematic to adopt because it's based on older wording.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
As a result of that, I also have to negative NDP-13.
Now this may surprise you, Mr. Champoux, but we now vote on BQ-32.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 18 agreed to: yeas 9; nays 2)
(Clause 19 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
(On clause 20)
The Chair: We're going to start with BQ-33, which was put forward by Monsieur Champoux.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
That brings us to BQ-34, which was moved by Mr. Champoux.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 20 agreed to: yeas 7, nays 4)
(On clause 21)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
We're starting with G-15, which was brought forward by Madam Dabrusin.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 21 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I'm sorry. They were all yes. I'm so used to someone opposing, I just can't get over the fact that everyone is unanimous. That's no reflection on you. That's just my abilities.
(Clause 22 agreed to)
The Chair: I was alone at the head of the table for so long.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
If you'll look at your hymn book, you'll see that G-16 is listed, but that was already carried. It was consequential to G-9. Therefore, we're going to just move on from there, because we're [Technical difficulty—Editor] the consequences of the G-9 vote to G-16, so you can take that one out.
That brings us to BQ-35(N). This amends the Broadcasting Act. It provides for a specific regime for the commission to impose a penalty to the corporation, CBC, under the proposed section 34.99. The circumstances cannot be done without holding a public hearing. That's basically what the amendment's saying.
The amendment aims at applying the same unique regime to a person carrying on a broadcasting undertaking, even though it's a different regime, and it does not contemplate a public hearing as proposed in the bill under proposed section 34.92, and I'm afraid that this goes beyond the principle and scope of the bill.
We are applying one to one, and you want to expand it to apply to the other. It's not envisioned within C-10. Therefore, I have to rule that it is, according to page 770 of the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, inadmissible for the purposes of the principle and scope of Bill C-10.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
It's duly noted in Hansard forever.
Let's move along.
We now go to NDP-14, put forward by Ms. McPherson. There is just one thing to note about this: If NDP-14 is adopted, BQ-36 cannot be moved, simply because they're identical, as two great minds think alike. If NDP-14 is negatived, so is BQ-36, of course, which follows the same logic that I just stated. Those two amendments, NDP-14 and BQ-36, are linked, but technically, officially, we are now voting on NDP-14.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: Congratulations to both of you.
This brings us to the end of clause 23.
(Clause 23 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
(Clause 24 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
(On clause 25)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
We're on amendment PV-26.1.
For those watching us at home, PV is Parti vert, the Green Party. This has been submitted by the Green Party, by Mr. Manly.
Shall PV 26.1 carry?
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: That brings me to amendment CPC-12.
In Bill C-10, it amends section 46 of the Broadcasting—
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Based on the ruling that was deemed earlier that rules out CPC-12.
Thank you very much for that.
That brings me to the end of clause 25.
(Clause 25 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
(Clause 26 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Next is the proposal for new clause 26.1, in amendment CPC-13.
The amendment amends subsection 71(3) of the act, which is not amended by the bill. In particular, we're talking about the corporation, CBC/Radio-Canada, and whether or not it is compelled to provide new information to its report to Parliament.
House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, on page 771, states, “an amendment is inadmissible if it proposes to amend a statute that is not before the committee or a section of the parent Act”—the Broadcasting Act—“unless the latter is specifically amended by a clause of the bill”.
The bill goes slightly beyond its reach, meaning that by saying yes at second reading to Bill C-10, we've accepted its principle, but we've also accepted the scope of the bill. This particular measure does go beyond the scope of the bill. Therefore, I have to rule that CPC-13 is inadmissible.
That brings us to clause 27.
(Clauses 27 and 28 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
The Chair: Folks, could I just get everyone's attention for a moment? One of the things we tend to do in clause-by-clause, similar to this, is that if we have several clauses in a row, we can lump them together into one vote.
Right now, I have clause 29, 30, 31 and 32 with no proposed amendments from our amendment package or from PV either. We can lump them together into one vote, but to do that I would need unanimous consent. This will also come up again later on in the bill. I have not done it yet, but it just occurred to me that it can be done. I will put it in front of the committee. Clauses 29 to 32 would be voted on at once.
Do I have unanimous consent to proceed that way?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
(Clauses 29 to 32 inclusive agreed to: yeas 7, nays 4)
(On clause 33)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
That brings us to clause 33. Within the package that you have, we have G-17, as put forward by Mr. Louis.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Yes, that's good. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes we go on autopilot a little too long and then, all of a sudden, something like this happens.
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 33 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
The Chair: That brings us to the new clause 33.1. We now go to G-18, as put forward by Mr. Louis. Shall G-18 carry?
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clauses 34 to 46 inclusive agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
That brings us to a proposal for new clause 46.1. For clause 46.1, just to break a little bit of the monotony of the straight clauses, we have before us, from Mr. Manley, amendment PV-27(N).
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Okay, folks, that brings us to BQ-37.
Mr. Champoux, you will be honoured to know that yours will be the last amendment.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I know. I get that a lot.
Nevertheless, let me rephrase that. I'll back up for just a moment, everyone.
Shall clause 47 carry?
(Clause 47 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
You may be on the right path, Mr. Aitchison.
Let me just ask the question again.
Shall the title carry?
(Title agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
The Chair: Shall the bill, as amended, carry?
(Bill C-10 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Shall the chair report the bill, as amended, to the House?
(Reporting of the bill as amended to the House agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
The Chair: Shall the committee order a reprint of the bill, as amended, for the use of the House at report stage?
(Reprint of the bill agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
Philippe Méla
View Philippe Méla Profile
Philippe Méla
2021-06-11 15:16
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As you know, Mr. Champoux, there are a number of committees working on bills right now, and many of them are at the reprint stage. So all these bills end up in the same place for reprinting. That's why the process takes a little longer than usual.
In the case of Bill C‑10, a lot of amendments and subamendments have been passed, so it's going to take a little bit longer still. However, we will try to produce the report by Monday or Tuesday at the latest. We will do our best at the end of the week.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
That's, of course, what I meant by short order. They should have that done by then, and then it goes back to the order of the House.
By the way, we have a meeting on Monday. I'll update you at the very beginning of the meeting as to the progress of the reprint and report of Bill C-10 back to the House for report stage.
Go ahead, Ms. McPherson.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Welcome, everyone, to C-10's clause-by-clause consideration. Welcome back.
Before I get to resuming the debate we had, which was on CPC-9.5, I just wanted to let everybody know that there's been an addition. I think it's in your an inbox. A new amendment has been proposed that comes from Mr. Housefather.
If you look at the reference number, the last three numbers are 710. It's going to be labelled as LIB-9.1.
Now, where does that go? I'm glad you asked. I hope I get the page number right. It's going to be after CPC-11.2 and before the next clause, which is PV-26. I think that would now be page 106.
Mr. Maziade, did I get the page number right?
View Martin Shields Profile
CPC (AB)
View Martin Shields Profile
2021-06-10 15:37
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We were in the middle of a debate on an amendment. I appreciated hearing from Mr. Louis—I really did—expressing his opinion and his desires for artists, performers and creators. It's great to hear opinions from committee members about the things that are meaningful to them.
I'm not sure of the reference about big tech. I like all performers, and whatever we can do.... The other side of it is performers, and I'm not one of them. I'm not a creator, but what I am is a person who buys tickets. I'm one of those people who really appreciate artists and creators of all different kinds, and I'm the one out there as a consumer who really supports them by buying tickets and wants to support them because I appreciate what they do. I purchase pieces of art, or admire the statue of David in Florence and line up for hours to do so.
Then there's the other side of it, those people who really want to support and appreciate art by buying the tickets to do it. We need to remember the consumers out there, because without those consumers to appreciate.... If the tree falls down in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it, did the tree make any noise when it fell?
I really do appreciate Mr. Louis bringing his opinions and concerns, though. On big tech, we've all agreed that there's going to be taxation. That hasn't been up for debate for a long time, and there's going to be a support of the culture side of it. We've done reports on how short a lot of that is out there in support, but we have a bill here that at times, I think, doesn't hit the mark. Big tech's money isn't the answer that we're working on with this amendment. It's freedom of speech for creators and performers, but again, I'm not one of those. I'm one of those who will pay the price to see, listen and appreciate those who do create. That's the part we have to remember that they drive, what it is that those people can do, and that's the part that facilitates their moving forward and being able to use their talents and express them in many different ways. Freedom of speech is very important for two sides: One is the consumer and the other is the artist.
Again, thank you, Mr. Louis, for expressing your opinion. I appreciate those people on the committee who will and do express them. We learn a lot more from each other when we take the time to talk about what is meaningful to us in our particular roles outside of this forum we are enclosed in at the moment.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
View Rachael Harder Profile
CPC (AB)
Thank you, Chair.
I want to take a moment to speak to the motion. Obviously, there are a lot of things going on here, but at the heart of it, I think it has to do with artists or creators and discoverability online, and making sure that any regulations that are put in place do not infringe upon their charter rights or the charter rights of those who might view that content.
It's interesting to me that in this committee, when proposed section 4.1 was removed, there wasn't a unanimous call to hear from the artists. I think that's very sad because their voices have been ignored and they are going to be largely impacted by this piece of legislation. There's this whole world of digital first creators whose voices haven't been invited to the table. We are here at the 11th hour before this legislation gets rammed through and we haven't even heard from them.
How sad is it to not hear from this group that is going to be dramatically impacted by this legislation?
That being the case, I mentioned earlier at this committee that I've taken it upon myself to reach out to these individuals and hear their voices. There's one in particular who I would like to bring to this committee's attention as we continue to consider the amendment that is on the table by my colleague Mr. Rayes.
This is from an organization called Skyship Entertainment. This letter was written and submitted to me just within the last couple of days.
It is from someone by the name of Morghan Fortier. This individual is the CEO of Skyship Entertainment, which is an award-winning entertainment company owned and operated in Canada. Of course, they are using non-traditional media platforms.
I'm going to read it into the record, because again, I believe it's very important for this committee to consider the words of this individual. She writes:
As one of Canada’s top two YouTube creators, we are a proud example of how Canadian content can be successfully exported to the rest of the world. Our educational content enriches the lives of over 30 million viewers around the world every single day—
View Martin Champoux Profile
BQ (QC)
View Martin Champoux Profile
2021-06-10 15:55
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will take a few moments to offer my opinion on this amendment. We are indeed discussing an amendment.
I'm going to have a question or two for our friends in the department, particularly Mr. Ripley.
First of all, I want to commend the member for Lethbridge for listening to the artists. We can see that she's sensitive to the artists' cause.
However, when she says that we haven't listened to the artists, that we haven't heard them, I'd like to point out that the artists we're talking to are represented by associations such as the Union des artistes, the Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque and the Association des professionnels de l'édition musicale. These are recognized and important associations. They are not lobbies; they are also unions and groups representing artists.
She talks about artists who, in her view, are in niches and stuck in the nineties. Yet the vast majority of these artists are using electronic platforms to distribute their art. So these artists are not so out of touch, these artists are not so far removed from the ones she's talking about, who she feels we should have listened to.
Furthermore, the artists she's talking about who she feels we should have listened to are often YouTubers, people who have platforms or channels on which they post content. Yet, these folks are not subject to the regulation proposed in Bill C‑10. That's one of the questions Mr. Ripley has answered a number of times.
It's easy to build a series of arguments out of falsehoods, to spin it all out of proportion and make a big deal of it. You have to be careful, you have to say real things too, and you have to speak to the real world.
We're talking about 200,000 artists represented by associations like the ones I just mentioned. These 200,000 artists do not have niches and are not stuck in the nineties. These are artists who would have deserved a much more heartfelt apology than what we just heard from the member for Lethbridge, based on the comments.
Having said that, I'd like to once again ask Mr. Ripley about the amendment we're talking about here.
Isn't this request that we would make in adopting CPC‑9.5 simply a way to make the CRTC's job much more cumbersome? Won't this amendment only complicate things, when they are already pretty clear in the bill we're in the process of passing?
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-10 15:58
Thank you for the question, Mr. Champoux.
I would say that the proposed amendment will put a heavier burden on the CRTC, because for every decision, every order and every regulation, the CRTC will have to seek an outside legal opinion and then publish it on its website and in the Canada Gazette. I believe that's what is proposed.
Again, it's not a question of whether or not the CRTC is subject to the Charter; obviously it is. Obviously, too, recourse is available should anyone wish to challenge a decision made by the CRTC.
If this amendment carries, it will surely increase the burden on the CRTC, because it will require it to seek a legal opinion for each of its decisions and then publish it in theCanada Gazette.
View Martin Champoux Profile
BQ (QC)
View Martin Champoux Profile
2021-06-10 16:02
You have raised a good point: if someone feels that the CRTC has misinterpreted the act, they have recourse.
I don't want you to think that I'm making you repeat yourself, Mr. Ripley. In fact, I've been listening to you very carefully over the past few weeks. I'd like you to tell us whether you feel there is any cause for concern that the current wording of Bill C‑10 could allow the CRTC to misinterpret the act and violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in its regulations. Based on your interpretation of Bill C‑10 and the Broadcasting Act, do you see any cause for concern?
View Martin Champoux Profile
BQ (QC)
View Martin Champoux Profile
2021-06-10 16:10
Let me summarize how we interpret Bill C‑10 and the measures we want to put in place. I agree with my colleagues that we should not presume how the CRTC will interpret the act on which it will have to base its regulations. However, the current version of the bill doesn't raise concerns for users of online platforms, contrary to what some experts have suggested. According to several other experts, it doesn't represent an infringement of freedom of expression or of other principles in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in general.
Furthermore, if by any chance people we did not have the opportunity to hear from are concerned and want to give their opinion, they could participate in the CRTC public hearing process.
Ultimately, if a decision made by the CRTC violates the principles of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including freedom of expression, there is recourse to the courts.
So there are several layers of protection, in my view.
Actually, this is not a question for you, Mr. Ripley. Rather, it is the conclusion I draw from the many responses you just gave me, for which I thank you very much.
I will try to stick to the amendment that we're talking about, Mr. Chair. I want to avoid doing what some of my colleagues seem to be doing, as you like to say, venturing off the playing field. We're talking about freedom of expression and adherence to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the tools we put in place to do that.
I believe we have listened carefully to everyone and we haven't muzzled anyone. I don't think we have censored anyone in the last six weeks. We've clearly heard the concerns of our Conservative colleagues. In fact, I think it's very unfortunate that we've come to a process like the one in place. Ultimately, we urgently need regulations to level the playing field in the Canadian broadcasting system.
We have artists in Quebec and in Canada who are anxiously awaiting this bill. It's urgent that it be passed. All these individuals are also eager to take advantage of the digital world, just as much as those who are already there or who have been discovered through digital media.
I very much hope that we will conclude this debate in a cordial and productive manner, and that we will all move forward with the best will in the world. As I said earlier, more than 200,000 artists, creators, craftspeople, technicians and authors, to name but a few, are represented by the handful of associations we've been in contact with over the past few months. They are imploring us to pass this bill before the end of the session.
I'm going to stop there, Mr. Chair. I know those individuals are listening. I just want to tell them that we stand firmly with them and we sincerely hope that we can deliver Bill C‑10, for which they have been waiting far too long.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
View Alain Rayes Profile
CPC (QC)
Mr. Chair, thank you for allowing me to speak to my amendment once again.
Let me go back to what my colleague Mr. Champoux from the Bloc Québécois said: all's well with the world as long as there are no problems. I know that Mr. Ripley says that freedom of expression is protected; he's giving us the department's take on it. However, as Mr. Champoux has correctly pointed out, there are many voices in this country, including credible experts, who are expressing an opinion that is completely opposite to the department's vision.
At the heart of this issue is the CRTC, an agency whose approach is, in some respects, challenged by a number of people, including former senior CRTC officials. They are strongly questioning this bill.
I want to make something clear: I am not trying to digress from the subject, but I want to talk about an article that was published this week in La Presse, which is one of the most credible media outlets in the country. The reporter Philippe Mercure wrote this piece about a decision the CRTC made on Internet rates. Some may say that this is not relevant to the topic, but I simply want to illustrate how the CRTC works. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had clearly said in 2015 that he wanted to lower people's Internet bills. Despite clear government directives, the CRTC went back on its 2018 calculation and made a decision that helped the big players, to the detriment of the public.
According to the reporter who is an expert on this issue, the CRTC made “a 180‑degree about‑face, which the federal agency explains... by 'errors' made in 2019” in its own calculations. As a result of this decision, people's future Internet bills will more than double, because of an error that the CRTC apparently made in 2019. The reporter adds: “They ask us to just believe them. Except that the CRTC refuses to present a new calculation to justify its pro‑industry shift.”
Toward the end of the article, he writes: “So the regulator is simply choosing to cancel the rate cuts and keep the current ones in place. In a stunningly casual manner, it states that, in any event, the new calculations would 'probably' arrive at rates that 'might approach' those currently in use.” The CRTC decides of its own accord to say that it will not even do the rigorous, scientific exercise that is required.
When I see such things happening with respect to people's Internet costs, I am led to wonder. What does this have to do with Bill C‑10, you might ask? Well, I'm talking about the organization that will be given all these powers tomorrow morning, when we don't even know how the CRTC will read the bill, as Mr. Champoux pointed out. The CRTC has nine months to tell us how it will read the bill and how it will apply it, because there are no guidelines. All of us on the committee, not just the Conservatives, added guidelines to the bill for francophone content, Canadian content, and so on, because none of those things were there initially.
It is all very well to say that, based on how the bill reads, freedom of expression is protected. However, it seems to me that amendment CPC‑9.5 that I am proposing provides an additional safeguard to ensure that the CRTC respects freedom of expression, which is fundamental and which many experts have called for. I am not just talking about regular Canadians, but also about recognized experts from various universities and the legal field across the country.
My amendment simply requires that the CRTC publish the legal opinion on its website confirming that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is respected, and that this opinion be published in the Canada Gazette.
My colleague Mr. Waugh was saying that he had never read the Canada Gazette, and that's why we want the legal opinion to be published on the CRTC website as well. I understand not wanting to add unnecessary paperwork, but this is not too complicated. It would just take a fairly simple little 101 course. We can all relay the information afterwards on our web pages and social media.
Given the CRTC's track record, this requirement is just one more protective measure we are taking as a country, as Canadians. This will be good for artists, both those in associations and those who are independent and work from home.
Honestly, I do not believe that amendment CPC‑9.5 is asking for anything excessive at all. With respect, even if it required a little more paperwork, as Mr. Ripley said in response to a question from Mr. Champoux, would that be too high a price to pay to protect our freedom of expression? I'm sorry, but freedom of expression is priceless.
I move this amendment with all due respect to my colleagues, to the officials who are here and to all those who have worked on this issue. Regardless of the expertise of each of us, we are all human beings. We have tried as best we can to improve the bill. It was not perfect at the outset, which explains the multitude of amendments that have been introduced. In fact, many of them are going to be squeezed through without our having had a chance to discuss them.
One way or another, the bill will be challenged in court. It is actually not true that things will go smoothly tomorrow morning, despite what people would have us believe. The Conservatives will not be the ones responsible for blocking the bill, the courts will provide us with justice. In this case, law professors or those in this specific area will challenge aspects of Bill C‑10. I think that they too are entitled to have their expertise recognized whenever and wherever they comment.
I don't want to go any further, because I really want to see the vote on amendment CPC‑9.5. I would also like to have the opportunity to introduce amendment CPC‑9.6 afterwards, if we are not yet at the end of the five‑hour period we have.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
View Heather McPherson Profile
NDP (AB)
I will be as fast as I can. Thank you.
I just want to respond and say that I think this is a good amendment. I'm happy to support this extra oversight. I think that's great and I'm very thankful to Mr. Rayes for bringing this amendment forward.
However, I want to also just bring up the idea and to flag that when Mr. Shields spoke about legal opinions, and the legal opinions being those of the ministry or the government or of those who are contracted by the CRTC, it's important that we recognize that there was a letter sent to the Prime Minister by 14 of Canada's pre-eminent broadcasting, telecommunications and entertainment lawyers, with decades of experience, who spoke very clearly about the concerns that have been raised by some of the Conservatives.
They made it very clear that the commission is not being given any powers to infringe on Canadians' charter rights, that this is clearly outlined in the Department of Justice's update to the charter statement and that these lawyers agree with the conclusion. They say:
Bill C‑10 would restrict the powers the Commission would have over social media services to: mandating financial contributions to support Canadian programming or the recovery of regulatory costs; discoverability, so Canadian creators can be more easily discovered and promoted online; registration, so the Commission knows which services are operating in Canada; and audit powers, to ensure compliance with all of these powers....
They also said it is simply false and completely ignores that:
Users who upload content to these social media services would not be subject to the Act, as specified in proposed Section 2.1. Moreover, the Commission would not have the power to constrain the content on social media services, set program standards for these services or the proportion of programs on these services that must be Canadian.
Also some very smart legal opinion around this country has come forward and said some of the concerns that are being raised by certain members of this committee are completely unfounded. I think it's important that we get that on the record.
I realize I'm at the very last and at the tail end here, but I do want to make sure that that gets put into the record.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Welcome back, everybody.
As you know, we are now within the confines of Bill C-10, clause by clause.
What I am going to do right now is explain the process in relation to the order that we received from the House of Commons. It goes like this:
That, in relation to Bill C–10, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts, not more than five further hours shall be allotted to the consideration of the committee stage of the bill....
That is what we have just completed. It continues:
That, at the expiry of the time provided in this order...any proceedings before the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage on the said bill shall be interrupted—
We've just done that:
—if required for the purpose of this order, and, in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment.
What we're going to do is go through this clause by clause. There are three things to remember. Because of the orders from the House of Commons, voted on by a majority of the members, for these clauses there can be no debates, no amendments from the floor or subamendments pertaining to any amendment that is possible. This is a voting exercise that I am sure you have done before, and I don't need to explain how that goes.
Here is an important part. I have two rulings to make regarding the package of amendments that we have. For those folks who are listening at home, we as members propose amendments in advance to be studied and distributed amongst committee members, but they are not officially moved. We have gone through several. We still have several on the schedule here, but I have to get to two rulings before discussing any further.
Before I do the rulings, remember, whenever this chair makes any ruling, there is no debate on that ruling, but there is a process of appeal in a challenge. It has to be done following the ruling that is made. Again, I have two rulings, so let me deal with number one first.
Pursuant to the routine motion adopted by the committee, I have an obligation to put to a vote amendments from any member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the committee left to deal with in the package of amendments. These amendments will be deemed moved.
What I am saying to you is this: Orders that were adopted a few years ago—and I mentioned this during the committee—deem that motions by any unrecognized party on the committee are deemed to have been moved. In this particular case, it comes from one source, which would be the Green Party. These are all the amendments that say PV, Parti vert, so they are PV-26 and PV-27.
According to the routine motions that we have adopted, those motions made by Mr. Manly, PV, have been deemed moved. That means we will be voting on Parti vert, Green Party amendments that were proposed, because they have been deemed moved. This is a rule in place.
Now, again, Mr. Manly does not have the right to vote, but he does have the right to propose amendments, and once those are in our packages, those are deemed moved. Therefore, we will be voting on those.
That is the first ruling.
By the way, there's something else I should mention. I'm going to go very slowly with this, because I want everyone to understand what we're doing and I want to make sure that everyone is aware of how the process goes. I'll probably go at the pace of the heartbeat of a hibernating bear, and I apologize if you find that frustrating, but I truly want everyone to understand.
Mr. Rayes, I see your hand up.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I don't mean to prejudge what you're about to ask. It's just that I think I might be able to answer your question.
Right now I'm still dealing with the first ruling, so now that is done.
That brings me to my second ruling.
All the rest of the amendments here have not been moved. Therefore, under the guidance—and in this case it's fairly strict guidance—of the standing orders, we will not be able to vote on the amendments by the parties.
Does everybody now understand why? It's because they're not moved. I am under strict orders to look at clause-by-clause on Bill C-10. These amendments have not been moved, and we cannot vote on something that has not been moved.
Mr. Housefather.
View Anthony Housefather Profile
Lib. (QC)
Because I believe that all of the amendments by all of the parties should indeed be considered and voted on, I challenge the ruling.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Welcome back, everybody. Once again, this is clause-by-clause on Bill C-10.
I'm going to clarify once more what we're doing right now. The ruling was such that—
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Thank you for that, Mr. Housefather. I thought I saw him.
There he is.
Mr. Champoux, it's good to see you back.
Let me describe this one more time so that we're all on the same page.
The second ruling I made was that any motion that's not been moved cannot be voted upon. Mr. Housefather has challenged the ruling, so the vote will be on whether the chair's ruling should stand. In other words, if you agree with me that we shouldn't deal with these amendments, then you vote yes. If you think I'm wrong in my judgment, or by the standing orders, then you vote no and the amendments go back into play. They will be voted on again.
There's one more thing I'd like to point out, though. If the ruling is overturned, the amendments go back in—all that are there. If you wish to remove one, you can do it at any time, until I say, for example, now we're doing this G-12. Once I say that, G-12 has been moved and, therefore, you would need unanimous consent to withdraw it.
Is that clear?
Monsieur Rayes.
Philippe Méla
View Philippe Méla Profile
Philippe Méla
2021-06-10 17:03
Mr. Aitchison, the motion of the House is silent as to what to take into consideration. We have the package that's here, and the motion says, “every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the bill shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.”
Basically, the interpretation that's being given by the chair is that there are the amendments from the Parti vert that are deemed moved, according to the motion that was passed by the committee, so those are going to be voted upon. The others—that's the interpretation of the motion by the chair of the committee—will not, because there is no motion adopted by the committee that designates them as deemed moved.
Since this is an interpretation by the chair of the motion by the House, it is up to the committee to decide if the committee agrees with this interpretation or not. We have had a few examples of that happening in the past.
It's an interpretation that the chair is giving on the motion by the House, and after that, it's up to the committee to decide if it agrees or disagrees with the ruling of the chair.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
That being said, I see Mr. Rayes's hand up, but, folks, the other thing I'm supposed to be doing right now is going directly to a vote on the challenge. Let's just say I've been stepping all over that particular rule and I really don't want to do that anymore.
I see everyone's hand down, so we're going to the vote. Once again this is to sustain or to agree with my ruling.
(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 7; yeas 4)
The Chair: There you have it. You don't have to worry about my being offended—trust me.
Now that the rulings have been made, we're now going to dive into it.
Let me just say this before we go any further. It means that all of the amendments you've handed in, which are in our huge package—or, as I like to call it, the hymn book—are now back. We will vote not only on the Parti vert ones, the PV amendments, but also on the CPC ones.
For the people watching us at home, I understand that you are not able to see these particular amendments or hear about them. I'm sure someone who's watching this closely may find that frustrating. This is my own opinion, dare I say it, but maybe at some time in the future we can talk to procedure and House affairs, since people watch online, on computer, and we can have some type of split-screen whereby they can actually see the amendments. That's just my opinion. I'm putting it out there, colleagues, for the sake of people who are watching. A lot of people are watching this right now, and we welcome them.
As we go through the clauses, we're going to do the amendments. When I say “CPC” that's an amendment put forward by the Conservative Party. When I say “LIB”, that is one put forward by the Liberal Party. When I say “BQ” that's one put forward by the Bloc. NDP and the number means one put forward by the New Democrats. “PV” will be Parti vert, the Green Party; and, finally, “G” means an amendment by the government.
That being said, because all of these amendments are back in, I still have the ability and should make rulings on each of these amendments. Some may be inadmissible. Primarily, usually, that's because they're beyond the principle and scope of the bill. If I do rule that an amendment is inadmissible, I will explain why. You still have the option of challenging that ruling, but it's a straight vote; it's not a debate. I will call for that. I will explain my ruling, and then you have the choice of either challenging it or not, and then we move on to the next one, but there is no debate.
Again I remind everyone that there is no debate and no amendment or subamendment in this exercise.
All that being said, we left off on—
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I'm afraid not, Mr. Aitchison. I feel for the process. I feel for you—I do—but no. That's part of the debate as well, the normal course of debate. This is strictly now getting to each of the clauses and amendments that we've reinstated.
We left off with CPC-9.5 That's from the Conservative Party, amendment CPC-9.5.
(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Before I go to the next one, when we do the voting, folks, I just want to be clear that when I call “shall it carry”, there are a couple of options that we've worked out. You can say “no”; however, if you agree with it, you don't have to say anything.
If nobody says anything, I'm going to let it carry. If you say “no”, I will go to a vote. If you wish to suggest that it carry on division or be defeated on division, you can make that suggestion at the same time. I can go back to the committee to find out if that is the way you wish to proceed.
Okay? If you agree with it, you don't have to say anything.
This brings us to CPC-9.6, and I have something a little different.
In reviewing CPC-9.6, it says it would add, in proposed section 9.2, in clause 7, after line 19 on page 8: “The Auditor General of Canada shall annually audit all the orders, conditions, regulations and decisions of the Commission”—meaning the CRTC—“with respect to the discoverability of programs”.
I don't need to proceed any further.
The reason I say that is that, if you look to page 770 in the third edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, it talks about “beyond the scope and principle of the bill”. In second reading, the House passed the bill, which means we accepted it in principle and scope, or at least the House did. I understand that not all of you do, but the majority of the House accepts the principle of it.
If we propose things that go beyond the scope of the bill, then it's my responsibility, as chair, to deem it inadmissible. What is going on here is that this particular amendment, CPC-9.6, calls on the Auditor General to do the work, but nowhere in Bill C-10 does it call on the Auditor General to do that. Not only that, it doesn't even require in the Broadcasting Act for the Auditor General to do that.
I'm not ruling on the intent of the amendment. In other words, I'm not saying I don't like the Auditor General. I'm saying that because Bill C-10 does not specify any function for the Auditor General to be involved, I have to rule it to be inadmissible. That's the ruling.
Mr. Rayes.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I have news for you. We're actually done with clause 7. How about that? We have to check to see if that's the longest clause in our history of Parliament. Probably not, but I digress.
We are finished with clause 7, which brings us to the vote.
(Clause 7 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
We're back and out of suspension.
Mr. Rayes, I feel for you on this one. Like I said earlier, I would love it for people watching. It probably would be a nice marker to look at. However, technically, our rules state that once I start reading the amendment, it becomes officially a part of debate. The instructions from the House say we cannot engage in debate, so technically I can't even read it.
The only consolation I have for you is that, when the minutes are printed, when this is done, they will include all the amendments and the wording of them. Whether they're defeated or accepted, they will be in the minutes, so that people can see exactly what was voted on, the language of it and the whole thing, but as of right now, I'm afraid that, no, I cannot read it. I can only give you a title of what we are voting on. In this case, that would be amendment BQ-26(N).
I appreciate your weighing in on that, because that's clarification for all of us.
Okay, folks, back we go. The question is on amendment BQ-26(N).
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: We now go to amendment PV-22. We're still on clause 8.
(Amendment negatived: nays 9: yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: Now we go to amendment G-12.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
I knew that would happen. That is correct and I sincerely apologize. I was ahead of myself.
Mr. Champoux, that's no reflection on the value of what you're proposing.
Shall BQ-27 carry?
(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: I did mention that, because of the ruling on CPC-9, CPC-10 is no longer in.
We'll now go to G-13(N).
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Mr. Shields, we can always depend on you.
We will have a vote on the motion to adjourn.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 9; nays 2)
The Chair: We will see you tomorrow.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
Welcome back, everybody. Welcome to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-10.
We are in the middle now of a five-hour debate, as was voted on by the House. We have just over two hours left, and we're going to jump right into that.
(On clause 7)
The Chair: We left off with Conservative amendment 9.3. Just so you are aware, you did not get CPC-9.3 in your original package. The last three digits in your reference number are 641. That takes care of the hymn book.
Last time, Mr. Genuis had the floor. He is not here with us now, but I don't see anyone who wishes to speak to CPC-9.3. We will proceed to a vote.
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Chair: This is a viciously efficient start we have going here. I'm just saying that for the record. Since I'm on record for many other things, I might as well be on it for that too.
There was a CPC-9.4, but as you know, that falls later. No, I'm sorry, that's not right. We're going to CPC-9.5. Is that right? I'm going to check with the legislative clerk for just a moment.
Go ahead, Mr. Méla.
View Alain Rayes Profile
CPC (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
With amendment CPC‑9.5, I am proposing that Bill C-10, in clause 7, be amended by adding after line 19 on page 8 the following:
9.2 (1) The Commission shall, for each regulation or order made, or condition imposed, under this Act in relation to an online undertaking, obtain an independent legal opinion as to whether any of the provisions of the regulation, order or condition are inconsistent with the protections provided to Canadians by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, particularly those relating to freedom of speech under paragraph 2(b).
(2) The Commission shall publish the independent legal opinion on its website within 10 days after obtaining it and shall cause it to be published in the Canada Gazette.
I want to make clear that subsection 9.2(1), as proposed in the amendment, applies to online undertakings.
I'll explain the rationale behind the amendment.
Actually, before I do that, I want to thank everyone for adopting amendment CPC‑9.3, which the committee debated yesterday and voted on at the beginning of today's meeting. I had forgotten to thank my fellow members for their support.
Amendment CPC‑9.5 isn't very complicated, so everyone should find it quite straightforward. In light of all the concerns raised vis-à-vis the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the amendment would require the CRTC to publish an independent legal opinion relating to the charter when it makes a decision or a new regulation regarding online content. The idea is simply to ensure that the rights guaranteed by the charter are protected.
Under the proposed procedure, the opinion would be published on the CRTC's website and in the Canada Gazette, to let all partners, traditional digital broadcasters and Canadians know that the regulation in question was consistent with the charter.
By adopting amendment CPC‑9.5, the legislator, the Parliament of Canada, would be ensuring that the freedom of speech of all Canadians was protected. We know that freedom of speech is at issue and that the bill will most likely be challenged by lawyers, lobby groups and special interest groups. We sense that many university teachers and lawyers have doubts about the work we are doing and the direction in which the bill is going. Accordingly, this amendment gives us another opportunity to ever so slightly improve the iteration of the bill currently before us.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
View Martin Shields Profile
CPC (AB)
View Martin Shields Profile
2021-06-10 11:20
Thank you, Mr. Chair, I appreciate that.
The amendment has been explained and the rationale for it, and I very much appreciate that, but the department is with us today. I was wondering what they believe in terms of how this could work with the CRTC. They're familiar with the CRTC and the regulations they develop and their undertakings regarding the things they do now.
Could the officials explain to me how they believe we could do this in the future, as the CRTC would look at this piece within the work they would do looking at this legislation?
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-10 11:21
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Shields, for the question.
There would be a few things I would underline with respect to the amendment that has been tabled.
The first thing is to highlight a point that came out in the committee's discussion with respect to the charter and freedom of expression, and to remind the committee that, of course, the CRTC is bound by the charter. Its decisions are already subject and will be subject in the future to review for charter consistency through things like judicial review of its decisions, etc.
Second, perhaps this may not be well known to the committee, but the CRTC is actually already served by independent legal counsel. In other words, its lawyers are not Department of Justice lawyers. In that respect, the CRTC already avails itself of independent legal advice.
The third thing I would note is that the amendment that is on the table would be quite exceptional in the sense that we're not aware of any other regulatory body that is in the practice of publishing its legal opinions. My understanding of the amendment is that the requirement would actually be quite significant in the sense that it would apply to each regulation or order or condition imposed on online undertakings. We expect that those would be quite numerous.
At the end of the day, Mr. Shields, the impact on this would be that any time the CRTC made a regulation or an order it would have to go and get a charter analysis done with respect to that, and then publish that and make it available. Again, from what we have seen, that would be fairly exceptional in the current regulatory landscape.
View Scott Aitchison Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This whole discussion has actually made me wonder about a couple of different things.
Mr. Ripley, I have a couple of questions. Do you know roughly what the legal budget is for the CRTC? I mean, is it frequently in court, or is it engaging lawyers regularly for the decisions that it makes? Is it a problem?
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-10 11:28
I don't have the legal budget at the tip of my fingers. What I can say to you is that CRTC decisions are subject to judicial review on a regular basis in the sense that there are applicants who choose to have decisions reviewed by a court. Some of those are fairly high-level, high-profile proceedings, and others are less so. Again, just to reiterate, that's why there are mechanisms in place. There's judicial review, and there is actually another provision in the Broadcasting Act as well. If a party to a proceeding feels like the CRTC has made an error in law or something along those lines, there is also a mechanism by which it can have that decision reviewed by the federal court system as well.
One thing that I would note or remind the committee—and perhaps it speaks a little bit to Mr. Shields' earlier question as well—is that proceedings are subject to a public process in the sense that anybody who wants to make a submission and put something on the record has the opportunity to do that. Again, when the CRTC is making a new regulation or an order, there would be an opportunity for organizations or individuals to make submissions, and if they have concerns about the impact on charter rights, for example, they could make sure that those are part of the public record. Then, of course, the CRTC will have to consider those in its decision-making.
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-10 11:32
Thank you for that question.
There are a couple of things. One would be just to stress off the top—and again, this perhaps picks up on some of the committee's debate from yesterday—that the effect of proposed section 2.1 would mean that any individual who is unaffiliated with a social media company, no matter how big their following is or how much money they make, is not to be considered a broadcaster for the purpose of the act.
Again, even if you have millions and millions of followers, that provision means it's not a question of your being considered a broadcaster. Again, for the most part, individuals will not be participating in CRTC proceedings because the act will not apply to their activities on social media services, for example.
What we see in this space, Mr. Aitchison, is that you have individuals or organizations coming to the table to represent the public interest that may not be sophisticated corporations able to hire legal teams to represent them. A good example in this space is an organization called the Public Interest Advocacy Centre, which raises many of these issues on behalf of organizations or individuals.
One of the things the government is proposing in Bill C-10 is to actually ensure there is better support for public interest representation in CRTC proceedings. Right now, the CRTC really has no formal mechanism to ensure the activities of these organizations can be funded.
If you look at Bill C-10, the CRTC can seek contributions to support the participation of public interest organizations in CRTC proceedings. The government is doing that very intentionally, recognizing that, obviously, organizations and voices are needed at the table. The goal in that is to secure more long-term, sustainable support for those organizations so that they remain viable and can continue to bring those issues to the table and to CRTC proceedings.
View Alain Rayes Profile
CPC (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
After that fine introduction of Mr. Ripley, I would like to thank him and all the other department officials who have been with us at each meeting. Even when we don't necessarily agree with their position, they provide sound information and guidance that helps us do the best possible job we can, given our respective knowledge and expertise. I want to thank them. I join you, Mr. Chair, in recognizing the contribution of Mr. Ripley and all the other department officials.
I have a question for Mr. Ripley. One of his previous comments might suggest that my amendment is unnecessary, but as the saying goes, you cannot be too careful.
Bill C‑10 gives rise to questions about freedom of expression. Some think that we are going too far or, at least, that freedom of expression is not really at risk, whereas others believe that the bill is flawed when it comes to freedom of expression. People have said that the CRTC will not use all of the powers it has been granted under the bill, but a number of experts worry that it might.
Why not impose certain obligations on the CRTC from the outset? Once the bill is a done deal, the politicians in power will say the same thing. They will say that the CRTC is an arm's-length organization that makes its own decisions. That's what happens whenever questions on the subject arise. That was the case recently when big and small telecoms imposed user fees for their services. The argument will be that the government no longer has the power to do anything once the CRTC has made a decision, because the CRTC supposedly operates at arm's length.
We experienced the same thing here, on the committee. The committee is supposed to be independent, but the government was able to interfere with the committee's work when it wanted to.
That makes me wonder whether my amendment has anything wrong with it, anything that might be detrimental. I may be asking for more protection than necessary, but in this case, it seems warranted. Once the bill comes into force, the CRTC will have nine months to do its homework and come up with a definition. After that, we will no longer be able to influence the guidelines it adopts or the manner in which it applies them.
My first question for you is this. Is there anything counterproductive in my amendment? Does it run counter to good old common sense? It may be overly protective, but if so, good. It puts additional safeguards in place to ensure freedom of expression is protected in every CRTC decision regulating the new space that is the digital world. Lobby groups and university teachers interested in freedom of expression can assuage our concerns by examining every CRTC decision or amendment, since it will be published on the commission's website and in the Canada Gazette.
View Scott Simms Profile
Lib. (NL)
We'll continue with clause-by-clause consideration of BIll C-10. When we left off we left off with CPC-9.5. I have Mr. Rayes who was about to ask a question.
You have the floor, sir, go ahead.
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-10 12:31
Thank you for the question, Mr. Rayes.
I would like to clarify the government's position. The issue here is not whether the CRTC is complying with the charter. As I mentioned, the charter applies to the CRTC, and mechanisms are already in place for people if they feel that the CRTC is not complying with the charter. For example, they can challenge a CRTC decision in federal court.
To answer your question, I should say that Bill C‑10 does propose to add paragraph 11.1(1)(c) to the Broadcasting Act, which gives the CRTC the power to make regulations respecting:
c) supporting participation by persons, groups of 10 persons or organizations representing the public interest in proceedings before the Commission under this Act.
Once again, the bill includes measures to ensure the sustainability of funding for public interest groups by providing funding for those groups, as required.
View Alain Rayes Profile
CPC (QC)
That's fine.
Throughout the consultations that we held during the consideration of the bill, we heard from many witnesses, but no one representing individuals who use social networks came to speak. We did not invite them because it was not part of the initial version of Bill C‑10. The bill took a different turn only afterwards, when we started looking at the amendments. So the people who felt aggrieved by the bill along the way have not had an opportunity to speak out on this.
Let me ask you my question. This will be my last question, because I want to give the floor to my colleagues on the committee who would like to speak to this amendment.
Could an ordinary citizen, who is not a representative of an organization, have access to this fund to participate in public hearings?
View Kevin Waugh Profile
CPC (SK)
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Champoux, for pointing that out.
I will say that a number of us here were probably members of ACTRA at one time, whether you had a cooking show or you were on CTV or wherever. We didn't know what ACTRA did. They were a heavy lobbyist group of the government, with many of their interventions going to the CRTC. As employees paying their dues to ACTRA, we never knew what was going on, and we still don't, to this day.
That's wrong, because when you pay dues, you always find out maybe a year later. You never find out when they do make an intervention on behalf of the members. I think Mr. Shields and Mr. Rayes were right. At times, you'll find out something, but it's always after the fact. I just wanted to bring that up.
Mr. Ripley, you've done a very good job here this morning of explaining the YouTube thing, because I think there are many out there listening today who would say that the CRTC makes too many small decisions for getting a legal opinion to be practical. You talked about that. Then there are those decisions in the online sphere that should not be taken lightly at all, as we see today on free speech. We don't want them to be able to quickly make hundreds of algorithm changes every day without proactively checking for charter compliance. I make that point because we're going to go after YouTube here and others.
Mr. Ripley, can you explain this a little? I think you've done a very good job here this morning in explaining parts of this, but I think that when you look at YouTube and a single user taking on ACTRA, CDCE and other organizations, you can see where the concern is, because a single user who maybe needs clarification going up against these organizations.... I mean, there is an imbalance there, and right away we would know that.
Do you want to comment a bit on that? I know that you've explained it pretty well, but is there anything else you want to add, Mr. Ripley?
Thomas Owen Ripley
View Thomas Owen Ripley Profile
Thomas Owen Ripley
2021-06-10 12:49
Thank you, Mr. Waugh.
I might make a couple of introductory points and then suggest that my colleague Mr. Olsen jump in, who is very well versed in CRTC processes.
Bill C-10 certainly envisions a transparent process when it comes to questions of regulations or orders. The intention is certainly that anybody who wants to participate in those proceedings would have an opportunity to do so.
Mr. Chair, if you'll permit me, perhaps Mr. Olsen can just quickly jump in and explain how this would work in a typical CRTC process, the kinds of things that would be naturally published on the CRTC's website and the materials that would be made available.
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