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View John McKay Profile
Lib. (ON)
Folks, we're trying to get back on our timeline here. We are waiting for our other witness, but in the meantime, we will proceed with RCMP captain Mark Flynn.
You will make your presentation, and if the folks from the Communications Security Establishment come, we'll make arrangements for them to speak as well.
The meeting is now public, by the way.
For those who are presenters, the real issue here is that the members wish to ask questions. Therefore, shorter presentations are preferable to longer ones.
With that, Superintendent Flynn, I'll ask you to make your presentation.
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Flynn, thank you for being here. I know that you will not comment on the ongoing investigation, but as a member of Parliament who represents a lot of members who have been impacted—I have been impacted as well—I am looking more at the potential impacts of fraud.
I know that many Canadians get fraudulent calls from CRA. I myself called back somebody who pretended they were you guys. They wanted to collect some money for a particular person. They were demanding. They were really adamant. They gave a callback number, and I provided that callback number to the police. Is that something you would advise Canadians to do where obviously the RCMP, or your local police force, is the first point of contact?
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Just from your experience, and learning from cases of fraud, we know that some of them may have my social insurance number. They may have my email address, as well as my civic address. It could be a very convincing case for them to pretend that they're either a government official or from some type of financial institution. What would you advise Canadians on the best way to protect themselves?
View Julie Dabrusin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you.
When we did our study on financial institutions and cybersecurity, we heard that banks had extensive security measures in place—something people may be questioning now. We also heard people being talked about as though they were cardboard boxes.
What can people do to better protect themselves? Can you give us any helpful information or details? Is there a place where members of the public can turn for information on how to better protect themselves—a website or a telephone line, perhaps? Is there anything you can tell us, Mr. Boucher?
View Julie Dabrusin Profile
Lib. (ON)
I see.
I also saw a lot of information about passwords. For instance, it mentioned people who use the same password for all of their online accounts.
Can you share some things people can do to protect themselves when it comes to their passwords? That's an important element.
View Julie Dabrusin Profile
Lib. (ON)
The other problem is that once people have a password that works well, they use it for all their online accounts. Some sites tell users that their passwords have to be longer, more complex or what have you, but they never remind people not to use the same password all the time or to use a different password than they do for other accounts. Would you mind talking about that as well?
View Julie Dabrusin Profile
Lib. (ON)
What can banks do to better educate the people using their services?
View John McKay Profile
Lib. (ON)
That's a consensus standard among the cyber community, if your will, your point number three—zero trust.
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I thank all witnesses for appearing before the committee on short notice.
I should mention that I am one of the victims of the data breach at Desjardins, as are many of my constituents.
Ms. Boisjoly, you referred to the online petition asking that the social insurance numbers of those affected be changed. Can you explain to the committee why that would not be done and why it would only complicate things without providing better security for Canadians?
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
In other words, changing our social insurance number does not necessarily protect our personal information.
Why is another social insurance number issued in cases where fraud has been proven?
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Here is a more practical question.
Like everyone in the same situation as myself, I see a risk of fraud. How then can I advise the authorities, whether at Revenue Canada or Service Canada, that my social insurance number may perhaps be used fraudulently? Can I call Service Canada to advise them of that? Is there an internal process that allows the public to do that?
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Okay.
The website lists 29 cases in which Canadians are allowed to give out their social insurance numbers. To banking institutions and other entities, for example.
What does Service Canada do so that Canadians know when they should give out their social insurance number and when they should not? What recourse is possible when an organization asks for a social insurance number when it should not do so?
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Cormier, you and I, like Mr. Lapointe, are victims of the leak. I understand perfectly that it is difficult to fully control a malicious employee. It is virtually impossible.
That said, the leak will have various repercussions on Desjardins members. For some, nothing will come of it, while others will be victims of fraud at some point in the future. My constituents have asked me why you are offering the Equifax service free of charge for five years and not for 10, 15 or 20 years.
View Francis Drouin Profile
Lib. (ON)
Yesterday, I experienced something while communicating with Equifax. Its website was down, and I called the company. Finally, between 45 minutes and one hour later, I could sign up.
In eastern Ontario, the Desjardins Group caisses are very popular and very represented in communities. Employees are trained to help seniors who cannot go online to enrol. I am lucky to go online and to check my credit report daily, but what about my grandmother, for instance? Will someone from Desjardins let her know that there has been movement in her credit report?
View John McKay Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.
I want to thank the witnesses for their appearance here. I'm happy to note that your announcement of your package coincided with your appearance here. That's quite fortunate. There are four or five members of this committee who are uniquely vulnerable as members of your association. I'm wondering whether their unique vulnerabilities as public figures is covered by your announcement today.
View John McKay Profile
Lib. (ON)
I have taken note of that, as you mentioned it earlier. However, what I'm talking about is the unique vulnerability of public officials. If that vulnerability arises, will it be addressed by this particular package?
View John McKay Profile
Lib. (ON)
So in the initial thrust, not necessarily.
Mr. Guy Cormier: Yes. We will look at it.
The Chair: My question is that we've been doing this for awhile now and one of, if you will, the gold standards of protection is what's called “zero trust”, which was brought up by a previous witness, who said, “identify and protect critical assets. Know where your key data lives; protect it; monitor the protection, and be ready to respond.”
Do you feel that Desjardins adhered to the zero trust principle that seems to be the gold standard for protection of data?
View Ruby Sahota Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Ruby Sahota Profile
2019-02-20 16:36
I've read a little bit about the political parties being hacked. Do you know what kind of data? I know you're going into an election. We are also going to be having a federal election in October of this year. On another committee I sit on, we've been talking quite extensively with the democratic institutions minister about the potential threats Canada faces as do many countries around the world regarding elections and protecting democratic institutions.
What kind of wisdom can you give us from the experience that Australia has been having?
View Ruby Sahota Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Ruby Sahota Profile
2019-02-20 16:38
Do you feel the lack of a public statement is due to wanting to protect the integrity of the system there and not wanting people to be fully aware of what may or may not have happened?
View Ruby Sahota Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Ruby Sahota Profile
2019-02-20 16:39
We've had those conversations, as well, when it comes to private companies. Many people are not revealing the breaches that are occurring due to public scrutiny or shame.
When it comes to our democratic institutions, do you think we should be trying, through the Five Eyes at least and through other democracies, to work together in order to lessen the potential threats, and how so?
View Ruby Sahota Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Ruby Sahota Profile
2019-01-28 17:09
Thank you.
It has been referenced many times here today what you feel the gaps may be. I would like to focus on your introductory speech where you talked about the investment in budget 2018 for the creation of this new RCMP national cybercrime coordination unit.
This sounds great, and I know it probably takes time to really get it fully up and functioning. Would you say it is right now, and if not, how long would it take, and what was in place before the creation of this unit?
View Ruby Sahota Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Ruby Sahota Profile
2019-01-28 17:11
You said in your introduction that there were consultations done, and there was a laxing in two areas and that's why we are where we are.
What was in place before creating this unit?
View Michael Chong Profile
CPC (ON)
Okay.
In your second recommendation, you're suggesting that we increase public enforcement of copyright, using domestic law enforcement agencies to actively pursue people infringing on copyright. The government announced some $116 million for a new national cybercrime unit run by the RCMP that will work with international law enforcement agencies to pursue these kinds of infractions. Are you suggesting that's not a good approach or that the government doesn't have them up and running yet or that another approach needs to be taken?
We're here to hear your suggestions on this.
View Marilyn Gladu Profile
CPC (ON)
I call the meeting to order.
We are very fortunate this afternoon to have representatives from Google and Google Canada with us.
By video conference, we have Malika Saada Saar. Here in the room we have Lauren Skelly, who is a senior policy analyst, and Jason Kee, who is counsel for public policy and government relations.
We're going to allow them to open up with their remarks; then we'll go to our round of questions.
We'll begin with you, Lauren.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you so much for appearing here today.
You mentioned algorithms. After our last meeting, one of my colleagues said, “Watch what happens when you type this in”, so we typed in “are blacks”. The second response that came up was “dumber”. That's not what I was looking for, but that's obviously an algorithm, right?
How do you combat that? Obviously someone has moved that up in the search engine for their own reasons. How do you deal with these kinds of things?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
We heard at the last meeting about something called...“brigading”, I think, was the term, whereby actions by groups can move things up or down on a Google search. Are you familiar with that?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Okay.
Something else we've heard a lot about is the need for more digital literacy. I was quite pleased to hear you talk about how you're already doing some of that. Can you expand on the programs that you run and to whom they are available?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
I'd love to know what we're doing in Canada.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
When you talk about supporting them, do you mean you're giving them financial support?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
That's great.
We had a witness who talked about the creation of an e-safety commissioner, something they have in Australia right now. It would be someone within government who would be responsible for responding to complaints and basically being the coordinator for e-safety.
Are you familiar with that in Australia? What are your thoughts on it?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Going back to your programming just for a moment, MediaSmarts was one of our best witnesses in terms of what they're doing and the information they could provide to us. Certainly, ongoing funding is an issue for a group like that.
I think any assistance that companies such as yours can provide to step it up.... I'm not asking for a commitment, but government can't provide all the funding for that. They were talking about the fact that it's a multi-billion-dollar industry in terms of algorithms.
Do you have any other suggestions on who could provide funding for groups such as MediaSmarts, besides Google?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Okay.
This is probably my last question, because I didn't start my time right away. Someone else, one or our witnesses—and it was to do with Twitter, but it would apply to your algorithms as well—suggested having more women involved in the process of developing the algorithms. I'm wondering how many women Google has doing that, and if you do see the need for having more diversity in the people who are developing and monitoring the algorithms online.
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you very much for coming out today. I have a couple of questions.
One of the things you mentioned during your presentation was Applejacks digital literacy. Can you give me some more information on that, looking at things like the take-up? Where is this currently being done? What age group are you targeting? Does it start at kindergarten? Can you give me more information? I assume it's in the United States, but do we have it happening here in Canada? What states are currently taking part in it?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Excellent.
You talked about law, and law enforcement has come up a lot. When you're taking crimes like this to the law enforcement agencies, of course, there isn't an understanding of it.
What would you recommend for programming? Is there an initiative that you could see Google taking up, or are we looking at developing a program and originating it from, once again, a variety of different subusers?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Finally, I want to talk about profiles.
Some computers will have multiple profiles, while some will just have a family profile. In my family, we use “Vecchios”. In a situation like this, if you have singular profiles, is it going to be the computer itself that sends you into those algorithms, or is it going to be the profiler's use that will send you into those algorithms? For instance, if I'm using the computer and I'm doing research, will the research I have come up when my 13-year-old asks the same questions? Will he be able to get basically the same line if we put in the same codes, because of the different use that we have?
What would you say on the profiles?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Okay. That's not a problem.
Finally, when we're looking at other governments and countries, have you seen any laws or regulations that would be good for us to look at, that might help us make more informed choices for what we should do here in Canada?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you very much for coming forward and certainly the whole encryption thing has come up here.
I also sit on the status of women committee and we're looking at cyber-violence.
If you put that hat on for a moment, and look at the question of encryption in terms of tracking down people who are committing cyber-violence against young women and girls, the police and victims have told us that's one of the issues in why they haven't been able to track down these people.
They are criminals, regardless of whether they're committing terror or whether they're committing cyber-violence. I'm wondering, how do you balance that, and how do you deal with issues of encryption when you're talking about people who are committing crime and not being able to track them down?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Can you make any suggestions in a digital world on ways to maintain the privacy or integrity that you're talking about, but also to allow law enforcement to be able to use tools to be able to track down criminals?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
That's the part that's not effective, from what you said.
View Robert Oliphant Profile
Lib. (ON)
I want to echo those comments. This will be a big thing. I'm not sure we're going to get into it as much in this study. One of the things we're doing on this tour is trying to look at the scope of everything we need to do to see the modules of later studies we're going to do, the whole concept of security in a digital world.
What came to me as you were speaking was, we've tended to think of encryption like cracking code in World War II. If you could crack the code then you could figure out what the bad guys were doing. We're framing it in terms of having a non-digital answer in a digital world, and we have to have a whole new way of thinking about it. The way you've framed it is very helpful for me. You have to build that bug into the encryption, and if you build it in, you give the bad guys a way to get in. I think that's very helpful for our committee to hear. We're not going to give you a satisfying answer on that tonight, but rest assured, that's the kind of thing our committee is listening to. We'll be back to you.
View Marilyn Gladu Profile
CPC (ON)
Good afternoon. Since we're running a little bit late and we have a quorum, we're going to begin.
We're very happy today to have with us, from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, Jeffery Adam, the chief superintendent and director general of E-Crimes. We also have from the west coast, the LEAF Association, represented by Kendra Milne, the director of law reform, who is joining us by video conference
I'm sure we'll have a lively conversation.
We'll go to our 10 minutes each for opening remarks and then to our questioning.
We'll begin with you, Jeffery Adam.
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-10-05 15:57
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you so much, both of you, for your presentations, your time, and preparation of them and your insight.
My first question is for Ms. Milne. You mentioned section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. Can you please expand on that a bit, reviewing what changes you want us to consider reintroducing?
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-10-05 15:59
Thank you.
Mr. Adam, in 2014-15, the Law Amendments Committee of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police examined the Protecting Canadians from Online Crime Act, which was enacted in 2014. In your opinion, are there still gaps in the legislation to protect young women and girls against cyber-violence? If so, what are your suggestions to address some of those gaps?
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-10-05 16:01
Specifically on that, Mr. Adam, is that an international law? Is there anything they could do about...?
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-10-05 16:01
Ms. Milne, you mentioned quite a few recommendations, and I really appreciate having those on the record.
You alluded to the privacy side of social media, for Facebook and Twitter. Do you have any recommendations for us in our role as the federal government regarding improvements that could be made along those lines related to those two social media?
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-10-05 16:03
Before I go to Mr. Adam, is it possible to give the committee that report?
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-10-05 16:03
Thank you.
Mr. Adam, do you have any suggestions from the police association? Do you have any recommendations?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you very much for coming.
I'm going to start with you, Mr. Adam. Many people and organizations that have spoken to us have said they feel there is inadequate training at the first line. The police coming in and first responders are having issues dealing with victims of cybercrime.
Victims of cybercrime report that they have received different advice or responses. At that level, do you feel the response is uniform or do you feel that each and every station or jurisdiction would have different ways of dealing with cyber-violence?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
That goes further with my question. What kinds of tools are you putting forward for law enforcement? Are there any tools or resources that the federal government should be assisting you with as well?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you very much. I'm just going to move on to Kendra.
What is the biggest legal issue that gets in the way of bringing cybercriminals to justice? What do you feel is that one thing? I know you recognize that we look at human rights, hate speech, and a variety of things like that. I know it's very difficult to pinpoint this, but where would you start?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
I'm going to share the next few minutes with Ms. Harder. I'll just pass it over.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
I'd like to share my time with Ms. Nassif.
If you were to look in an ideal world at the most effective response to cyber-violence, I'm just wondering if you could let us know how you think government would work with social media companies, media organizations, law enforcement, and the legal system. I know that's a really broad question, but if you were starting with a blank slate....
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Are you thinking of a body? There is a body that regulates lawyers. Are you thinking of something along those lines for the companies?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
I'll turn it over to you, Eva.
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you very much.
It's really quite neat that you're here today, especially when you talked about politics and why women don't get into politics.
The reason I say this is that on my way here on the bus, we received a tweet. It was to Rona Ambrose; Rachel Harder, who's sitting beside me; and Karen Vecchio—myself. It's Diviya Lives Here, and it was this great program where there was a young girl in grade 10 who came to visit Parliament yesterday. This is the tweet from this really stellar fellow: “Haven't we had enough of girls running the gov already? I have.”
Now, the first thing is I wanted to do was to write back and say, “Hey, I'm studying about people like you,” because that's the way I would deal with it, but I recognize other people might be offended by it. Here in politics I think many of us learn to grow a thick skin.
What would you recommend as some of the key components to educate girls on how to spot misogyny in the media and take action against it? I know my approach is to go back with humour and say, “Hey, whatever, get lost”, and mute him. I muted him and I had to un-mute him so I could read this.
What are some of the things that you would say?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
That's the thing. When I think sometimes about my own level of maturity, I deal with things differently. I am concerned about some of the younger women dealing with this who have not had any experience.
Continuing on this theme, I do see a lot of different people in the room. We do want to bring more young women onto boards. We want to bring more women into politics and into those levels of government or within business.
It's nice that Ms. Moore is here, too, and I'm looking at the military. We want women to be there. What is it that we can do to make sure women can benefit and to make sure they can get over these hurdles, such as this discrimination online, or cyber-bullying, or things of that sort?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
This might be done differently because you are in the United States, but what can be done legally if a person detects sexism in the media? What is it that is done in the United States? What are things you may know that are being done in Canada? What are things we can do?
View Anita Vandenbeld Profile
Lib. (ON)
Actually, if you want to continue with answering that question, I think most of us would like to hear that.
View Anita Vandenbeld Profile
Lib. (ON)
Going to where these things are being disseminated, a lot of this is happening on social media, so I'd like to go back to something you said at the very beginning when you talked about regulating some of these private platforms. You mentioned a couple of things. The first was the lack of diversity in the industry, but you also said something about algorithmic unaccountability. I'm not quite sure what you meant by that. Would you mind explaining that?
View Marilyn Gladu Profile
CPC (ON)
Good afternoon. We are very excited today to continue our study of violence against young women and girls.
We have a number of guests with us today. We were to have a video conference with East Prince Women's Information Centre. We have Andy Lou Somers, who is the executive director, and Nancy Beth Guptill, a cyber-violence expert. They don't have video conference working, so we're going to have them on cellphone with a limited battery. No pressure. We'll let them go first for their 10 minutes.
Then, from the CYCC Network we have Lisa Lachance, who is the executive director, and Alicia Raimundo, youth advisory committee co-chair. After we hear from the ladies from East Prince, we will go over to CYCC for 10 minutes.
Andy, welcome, and go ahead for 10 minutes.
View Anita Vandenbeld Profile
Lib. (ON)
I want to thank all of you for being here.
I'd like to pick up on the mental health issue again, because I'm quite struck by Alicia and her comment that the fear is just as real. The mental health implications are just as real, and yet there is a perception that the virtual world is not as real, and so there is an impact on mental health, but also the ability to seek help.
I noticed that you had said 55% of young people reach out online, and in the background documents there were some indications of ways in which the support and the help can also be provided online. If we're talking about things like real-time crisis intervention through Skype, and through technology or peer support, can you tell us a bit about what can be done and what is being done, and if there is a role for the federal government with funding, with projects, or even in legislation?
View Anita Vandenbeld Profile
Lib. (ON)
I heard you when you said, and others have said, that the solution was to just go offline. That reminds me of when women were told to just don't go out onto the streets, then. This is space where women have a right to be. I'm quite concerned that what we're hearing is that there isn't awareness of legislation. There's no awareness that it's illegal to send an intimate image to a third person.
This is also for the East Prince Women's Information Centre. I believe you said there are gaps in the legislation. We're hearing two things in the committee right now. We're hearing that the legislation that exists is not being enforced, that some police are not aware of it, and that a lot of young people are not aware of it. I'm interested to hear about the gaps in the legislation, as well, if there is a need to legislate further, particularly with regard to the Criminal Code and what the thresholds are for criminal harassment.
I'll put that to the East Prince Women's Information Centre first and then see what you think.
View Anita Vandenbeld Profile
Lib. (ON)
In addition to the provincial justice systems, do you see a role for the federal government, even in terms of sharing best practices or in terms of criminal law?
View Anita Vandenbeld Profile
Lib. (ON)
I quickly want to go to something that we heard in the statistics about the fact that this is happening more to girls than to boys. Do you think it's partly because there's more of a stigma on girls, particularly when it comes to cybersexual violence, than there would be on boys? If that's the case, how do we de-stigmatize girls when they're subjected to this?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Actually, I'm also going on the mental health stage with this.
Alicia, thank you very much for sharing your different stories and personal story here. The one thing we notice is that mental health of youth is a big concern. You even talked about the young girl going into the hospital and them taking the phone away.
What approaches do you think, as parents, mental health workers, and workers like yourselves, are the best techniques that you use to help the youth who have been victimized? What are some different things that you would recommend for us as legislators to put out there to make sure we educate?
After Alicia is done, this also goes to Prince Edward Island.
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Fantastic.
You also talked about a safe schools act. Did you indicate that in Nova Scotia or in Prince Edward Island there is nothing like a safe schools act that would be done through the province?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Absolutely. Thank you very much.
To go back to the mental health part, the biggest issue here is not just the people doing it. It's those victims that I think we need to really watch out for. If we were to make a list of priorities.... I think that a lot of times we look at why people are doing this. We'll look at the course...but I think we also have to look at the victims and how we can make sure the victims are protected.
What is the best thing to do? Would you approach it through working with the victims first or would you approach it as a whole 360°, where we're dealing with the victims and trying to deal with the education? How should we prioritize this, since we need to make a difference and we need to make it now? What would some of your priorities be?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Perfect.
Also, Alicia, thanks for teaching me new words today. I've never heard of “doxing” and “groupthink”, but it's truly that. It's that mob thinking when you look at the young boys or young men who are choosing a young victim like you, and it is horrifying.
From your own experience—and you don't have to answer this question—do you feel like a victim who has moved forward and now is able to help out everybody else? Do you feel that you've moved forward? Where do you feel right now, personally, if you don't mind my asking?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
I would just like to address this.
Peter Fragiskatos, Kate Young, Irene Mathyssen, and I, as a non-partisan event, will be hosting this evening. It's with the London Abused Women's Centre and Megan Walker, who around the country is renowned for all the hard work she's done. As a group, we are trying to get the Parliament Building lit up in purple, and we're asking that everybody wear purple that day to show our support. If you wish to write a letter, so that we can ask the both the Speaker of the House and the Speaker to help us out financially by not charging them, that would be awesome.
View Marilyn Gladu Profile
CPC (ON)
That's on November 15.
On Wednesday, we will have the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and the director of law reform with the West Coast LEAF Association, so there will be lots of focus on the law.
Mr. Fraser.
View Marilyn Gladu Profile
CPC (ON)
I call the meeting to order.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome.
We are going to have an exciting time today. The first exciting thing for me is that we have gender parity on our committee today for the first time. Welcome to Chris Bittle, Jean Rioux, and Garnett Genuis, who are joining us today. That's wonderful.
From the YMCA, we have Ann Decter, who is the director of advocacy and public policy, and Raine Liliefeldt, who is the director of member services and development. We also have, by video conference, Stephanie Guthrie, complainant in the R. v. Elliott criminal harassment trial at the Ontario Court of Justice.
Welcome to all of you, ladies. We'll have 10 minutes for Stephanie to speak, then we'll go to the YMCA for five minutes each, and then we'll go to our regular round of questioning.
Welcome, Stephanie. You can begin your 10 minutes.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you, all three of you, for appearing before our committee. This has been quite enlightening to hear your comments.
Ms. Guthrie, I want to applaud your bravery in pursuing the case as you did and continuing to talk about it as well. I'm curious about what your thoughts are in terms of federal legislation that might help prosecution in a case like yours. I know you'd like to see a more of a restorative justice side to it. If that harassment had happened to you off-line, is there anything different that could have been used that doesn't exist for online harassment?
Maybe the answer is no.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
I don't know if it was you, but we did talk about moderating online cyberviolence and we talked about how it would be of benefit to have more women involved in STEM and that type of career. Do you have any other suggestions for how that can be moderated? We have a fine line between the moderating and the free speech aspect, so I'm wondering if you have any other suggestions on how it can be moderated.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you.
This is to the ladies from the YWCA.
You run a program called Turning Point across nine provinces and one of the territories. One of the things that has come up in the minister's consultations has been the need for more specific programs that are adapted specifically for the north.
I'm wondering how you see your gender-based violence programs. Do you use the same format right across the country? Do you run into issues in terms of different communities? Does it need to be adapted for that?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
This question can be for both of you.
I'm wondering if you see any ways that social media can be leveraged to combat gender-based violence. We had Carol Todd and Leah Parsons here at our previous meeting talking about cellphone companies. One of the things that struck me was that Bell Media is doing a fantastic program called Bell Let's Talk, which raises awareness about mental health. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on those types of public awareness programs being used to curb gender-based violence.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
There's only so much your brain can take in at one time.
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you very much.
I want to start with the YWCA. You spoke about the #NOTokay program, which is trying to highlight how misogyny and violence have been integrated into many different shows, music videos, and video games.
What individuals do you feel are best to take on this message that children and young adults are seeing from these sorts of media? What is the best way of getting that to the children? Is it through family, through teachers? What is the best method, and who should be bringing that message to the kids?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
It may be easier to coordinate these things in the education and health systems because they already have platforms to educate or to share the message. The biggest thing I find as a parent—and I think many other parents feel the same—is that we have a disconnect. Once they leave school, we have to recognize that these things are on all the time.
You mentioned MediaSmarts. How can we make parents more aware, and how can we educate them in the best methods? What is the best way of communicating this to them, to get them on board to make sure that our children are safe?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
I think we all have a dream for that sort of idea as well. How can we reach those accomplishments? Would it be something through the federal government? Would we have organizations like the YWCA and other cross-country organizations work together to do this? What is the solution to make sure that we're educating our parents, and what do you think is the first step to do so?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
And the second, third, or fourth.
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
That would be the leadership role, taking on—
A voice: Yes.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: Okay.
View Marilyn Gladu Profile
CPC (ON)
We are ready to go with our second panel today.
With us we have, from the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, Lianna McDonald, who's the executive director, and we also have Signy Arnason, who is a director as well, but is also experienced in Cybertip, which we heard about last week when we had the RCMP with us.
Lianna will start off and give an overview, and then we'll have Signy give us 10 minutes, then Lianna can finish up with the rest of her 10 minutes, and then we'll go to our questions.
Take it away, Lianna.
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you very much. Those were tremendous presentations from both of you today, and I greatly appreciate them.
Signy, you were talking about sexual predators, which is of great concern for many of us, and then going into the age group when children and young girls are showing their independence by doing posing and things like that. This is where we left off in the last conversation about when it becomes consensual for them.
What is that? I know there's not a “miracle age”, but what are we looking at between something like child exploitation and their giving consent? What is that age in which we can expect those changes?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
Excellent.
You mentioned that in 2011 the legislation that was then making service providers.... Have you seen an impact from that? Are people using it? Are we getting results from that legislation?
View Karen Vecchio Profile
CPC (ON)
We talk about the normalization of hypersexuality. We talk about young girls. You're talking about being fully dressed, or just the sexual posing. Is this a healthy thing to be teaching our children? How do we start working with our children on what's healthy and what's not healthy? Should it be normalized, or do we put them at greater risk? What are your personal opinions on that, if you don't mind?
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-09-28 17:12
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The same here. Thank you so much for your time and your insight and caring to make a difference on this issue. Thank you so much.
I know we've talked a lot about education and I'm really happy that you indicated how absurd and ridiculous it is to put all this onus on parents.
I want to shift a bit to what you said earlier. I had my own ISP. I worked in the cable industry for 15 years. I want to talk a bit about Cleanfeed.
You mentioned 600 sites. You mentioned “many” providers. I would like to see all providers in Canada participate. If I'm hearing you correctly, this is voluntary. How can we make it mandatory? It is absurd that we have these content providers offshore that are doing this and we're not doing anything to stop them. What can we do?
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-09-28 17:16
Ms. Todd and Ms. Parsons talked about images that are online right now.
There are two things. One is that there is a law that it's illegal to share these images. I quote them as saying that many providers don't seem to know that it is illegal.
The second one is that I'd like to get your thoughts on how to remove those images. They were very concerned about the challenges in removing these images.
View Marc Serré Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Marc Serré Profile
2016-09-28 17:18
We probably don't have time now, but at a later point, can you provide the committee with your recommendations related to Facebook, Twitter, and the privacy laws that they're not following? To put it on the record, they're not following those laws. It's in advertising and it's hurting, so if you have any specific recommendations on that to bring to the committee or if it's part of your legislative package, we need to look at addressing that aspect.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
First I want to thank you both for all the work you've done for as long as you've done it. Quite honestly, I can't imagine being faced with the types of things you have been faced with for so long. I commend you both for your efforts.
While we were here, I went to NeedHelpNow. It is an outstanding resource. It's amazing. How many people know about it?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Yes. It's just outstanding.
That leads to one of my questions, actually. Do you think you have enough resources to do the work you are doing, making sure kids know that there is a website like this, where they can go to get the resources they need?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
When we had the RCMP here, they were really hesitant to provide us with any information on where the gaps were in the legislation. Will the material you are providing to us give us that?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Okay.
Witnesses who come to testify have data only for 13 or 15 and up. I think StatsCan collects data only for 15 and up. There seems to be a real lack of information on the pre-13-year-olds. Is that an accurate statement? You track it, but in terms of other organizations.... Kids are going online much younger, but we are not tracking what's going on at a younger age.
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Do you do much work with campus-aged people, or is it predominantly children?
View Pam Damoff Profile
Lib. (ON)
Okay. Thank you.
View Marilyn Gladu Profile
CPC (ON)
Hello.
I would like to welcome my colleagues.
We're starting again into our discussion about cyber-bullying. Today we are lucky to have with us from the Centre for Youth Crime Prevention in the RCMP, Peter Payne, officer in charge of the National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre; and Kimberly Taplin, director of the National Aboriginal Policing and Crime Prevention Services. We also have from Atwater Library and Computer Centre, Shanly Dixon, educator and researcher from the digital literacy project.
We'll have each of them speak for 10 minutes, and then we'll start our usual rounds of questioning.
We'll start off with Ms. Taplin.
View Anita Vandenbeld Profile
Lib. (ON)
Thank you very much.
I want to thank you for your very informative interventions.
I'd like to pick up on the question about the gaps in the legislation. I understand very well that you don't want to speculate on what legislation in Canada might look like, but are there examples from international jurisdictions, maybe the U.S. or in Europe or other places, of pieces of legislation or regulations, or even just ideas, that you can think of that are being used in other countries by their national police forces that might be relevant and might be something this committee might want to look at as an example?
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