LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, May 28, 2003

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1535

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet (Assistant Deputy Minister, Information, Analysis and Connectivity Branch, Department of Health)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

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1540

¹

1545

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1550

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

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1555

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

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1600

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

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1605

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.)

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

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1610

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.)

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mrs. Gigi Mandy (Director, Canada Health Act Division, Health Policy and Communications Branch, Department of Health)

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1615

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mrs. Gigi Mandy

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mrs. Gigi Mandy

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

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1620

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mrs. Gigi Mandy

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1625

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mrs. Gigi Mandy

The Chair

Mrs. Gigi Mandy

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

º

1630

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

º

1635

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

º

1640

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mrs. Gigi Mandy

The Chair

Mrs. Gigi Mandy

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

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1645

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Nouvet

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

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1650

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Committee Clerk

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

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NUMBER 024

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, May 28, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[Translation]

    The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Our witnesses today, from the Department of Health, are Mr. Marcel Nouvet, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister, Information Branch, who is also Vice-President of the Société santé en français, I believe, and Ms. Mandy, who is the Director, Canada Health Act Division, Health Policy and Communications Branch. They are here to speak to us about the order of reference we received from the House to study the subject-matter of Bill C-202 on health care for official language minority communities in their own language.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): May I ask a question?

    The Chair: Certainly.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Was Mr. Jacques Cloutier not available?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet (Assistant Deputy Minister, Information, Analysis and Connectivity Branch, Department of Health): He is available; he is in the room beside us. He has to leave in about an hour on a business trip.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you.

    The Chair: Our usual procedure, Mr. Nouvet and Ms. Mandy, is to start by asking you to make a presentation. We then move to questions and answers, and alternate from one side of the table to the other.

    I think that gives you some idea of how we proceed. I do not know which of you would like to begin, but the floor is yours.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to start by clarifying that I am a member of the board of Société Santé en français but not the vice-president. I'm also the co-chair of the Consultative Committee for French-Speaking Minorities, together with Hubert Gauthier.

    I have about eight minutes of opening comments, after which we will of course be pleased to answer your questions.

    First of all, Mr. Chairman, committee members, we thank you for your invitation to address the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages. It is a real pleasure to be here with you today.

    At the request of the committee, I would like to speak to you about the department's thinking on the former Bill C-202, federal-provincial-territorial efforts and cooperation on health and, briefly, health-related measures, as set forth in Mr. Dion's Action Plan for official languages, as well as the follow-up accorded to the recommendations contained in reports by the Consultative Committee for French-Speaking Minority Communities and the Consultative Committee for English-Speaking Minority Communities.

    Bill C-202 proposed adding a sixth principle to move provinces to increase services to official language minority communities. The federal government strongly supports official language minority communities, and wishes to do so in cooperation with the provincial governments, who play a lead role in the delivery of health-care services.

    The approach adopted to date by the Government of Canada, that of supporting provincial governments and communities in their efforts to provide official language minority communities with better access to services in their language, is more appropriate than the bill, which sought to add a sixth principle to the act.

    Because Health Canada generally has a good relationship, based on cooperation, with the provinces and territories, we are able to work together to find solutions to the critical problems of maintaining and renewing a public health system.

    The 2003 First Ministers' Accord on health care renewal is an example of the approach favoured by the Government of Canada : it seeks to offer Canadians a sustainable health care system that provides timely access to quality health services.

    The 2003 Accord will allow the federal government to further develop cooperation with the provinces and territories by concentrating on priority areas of reform in the health care system, such as accountability, primary health care, home care, catastrophic drug coverage, access to diagnostic/medical equipment, information technology and an electronic health record, Aboriginal health care, and so on.

    Currently, the implementation of this Accord presents challenges in our continued working relationship with the provinces and territories, mainly due to a lack of common vision regarding the practical application of some elements of the Accord, but also due to the tight deadlines for the next steps.

    While continuing bilateral or multilateral negotiations with the provinces and territories regarding programs and initiatives, Health Canada will, in accordance with the objectives of the Action Plan for Official Languages, continue to make every effort necessary to ensure that these governments consider the needs of official language minority communities as regards access to health care.

    In this respect, the Action Plan for Official Languages is intended to provide the approximately two million Canadians living in official language minority communities with better access to health services in their language. This approach is directly related to the recommendations by the Consultative Committees to the federal Minister of Health.

    It should be noted that Minister McLellan fully supports the Action Plan and has instructed her officials regarding the implementation of the health component of the plan.

    In order to better identify the steps necessary to improve public health, in 2000 Health Canada created two consultative committees, one for the French-speaking minority community, and the other for the English-speaking minority community.

    Between the fall of 2001 and the summer of 2002, the Consultative Committees for French-speaking and English-speaking minority communities presented their respective reports to the Minister of Health.

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    The report by the francophone committee describes the precarious state of health care for French-speaking minority communities and, in response, recommends the implementation of measures such as networking, training and retention of francophone health care professionals, primary health care, technology and information.

    The report by the Consultative Committee for English-Speaking Minority Communities provides an overview of the situation in Quebec and contains a series of similar recommendations. Health Canada has been active and diligent in working with the consultative committees to adequately meet the expectations of communities following these reports. Consideration has been given to those health care responsibilities specific to the provinces and territories.

    The two committees have therefore agreed to give priority to three of the recommendations: networking, training and retention of professionals, and primary health care.

    In 2002-2003, Health Canada has already allocated $1.9 million to be used in launching the networking initiative, maintaining existing networks and conducting feasibility studies and community consultations to prepare the way for implementation of the networks, as well as the creation of a national network to support the various priority initiatives.

    For example, it should be pointed out that this funding made it possible to maintain the French-Language Network of Eastern Ontario. In addition, a few days ago, Nova Scotia announced the creation of a network in that province. All provinces and territories will soon have functional networks.

    Health Canada's commitment is clear and has led to concrete results. In addition to working to meet the needs of official-language minority communities as expressed by the consultative committees, in response to requests presented by them, official-language minority communities have, in short, received more than $13.5 million over the last three years from existing Health Canada programs.

    It is in this context that, last March, Minister Dion unveiled the Action Plan for Official Languages, announcing an additional investment of $119 million over five years to increase access to health services for these communities.

    As you are aware, this $119 million includes the $89 million announced in the February 2003 budget for the implementation of initiatives to train and retain health care professionals and for the financing of community networking. It also includes the $30 million reallocated by Health Canada to initiatives related to the provision of health services in both official languages.

    As you can see, we are addressing three priorities identified by the committees. Both committees will therefore share the available funds as follows. Of the $89 million announced in the budget, $75 million over five years will be allocated to the training and retention of health care professionals.

    The training and retention of health care professionals will seek primarily to increase the number of francophone professionals by means of greater access to available programs and to implement this training throughout the country through participating educational institutions and through media-based and distance education courses, and by increasing the ability of institutions to train health care professionals in French-speaking minority communities.

    To this end, a consortium of francophone post-secondary educational institutions will be granted $63 million over five years. In short, the training initiative will allow minority francophones to offset the shortage of health care professionals, increase the training capacity to better meet needs, increase client and professional satisfaction, and ensure that future francophone health care professionals may work in their language and in their own communities.

    Another $14 million will be allocated over five years to networking, and francophones will receive $2 million each fiscal year.

    Networking will harness the ability of institutions, health care professionals and communities to really foster the commitment of health care stakeholders to provide health services in the language of their choices, establish solid and sustainable ties between stakeholders in the health care sector, mitigate the geographical dispersion of communities and encourage the empowerment of communities.

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    Finally, networking will lay the foundation for further discussion that will promote development of the resources necessary to put forward solutions for improving health service access for official-language minority communities.

    The Action Plan is also setting aside $30 million for improving access to services. These funds are from the Primary Health Care Transition Fund and are included in the envelop for official-language minority communities.

    The main purpose of this envelop is to improve and develop health care services adapted to regional and community realities, within the provincial/territorial health care systems; improve access to primary health care and, ultimately, increase client satisfaction in official-language minority communities.

    It is expected that the work performed by the networks will, among other things, serve to identify the appropriate provincial and territorial mechanisms for communities for improving public health care services.

    In addition to dealing with the communities' priorities, we are also following up on other recommendations, namely information and technology. For example, Health Canada has added two questions to the next series of the Canadian Community Health Survey by Statistics Canada. These questions will allows us to gather information regarding French-speaking and English-speaking minority communities and make that information available to the public. Furthermore, the needs of these communities, particularly of those in rural and remote areas, will be taken into consideration in future telehealth initiatives.

    Health Canada continues to support and work with both consultative committees. The advice and opinions provided by these committees will allow Health Canada to better target current and future responses to the health care expectations of official-language minority communities.

    All these investments mark an important step toward meeting the Government of Canada's commitment to improve the vitality of French-speaking and English-speaking minority communities and the importance that Health Canada attaches to this matter.

    That completes my presentation. If you have any questions, we would be pleased to answer them.

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    The Chair: Do you have a presentation, Ms. Mandy? Okay.

    We will begin with Mr. Sauvageau.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Good afternoon, Mr. Nouvet and Ms. Mandy.

    First of all, I would like to ask some questions to get an idea of Health Canada's position with respect to francophone communities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Health Canada's annual budget is a shade over $2.7 billion, according to Health Canada's 2002-2003 synopsis.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I don't have the exact figures at my fingertips, but...

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: The Action Plan announced this $119 million over five years. Twenty-four million dollars out of a total of $2.7 billion is not much. Do we agree on that?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: It is not much, but it is not the full amount either.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: No, but I would like to make some comparison. The government has set $24 million a year over five years to help francophone communities.

    For comparison purposes, how much money does Health Canada spend to make Canadians aware of the dangers of smoking and the abuse of drugs, alcohol and other controlled substances? How much does the annual anti-smoking campaign cost?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: That does not come under my area of activity. I believe you have the figures there, so perhaps you could provide them to us.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It amounts to 7% of the budget.

    Which issue has priority: pest control, pesticides and so on, or francophone communities? I am comparing the amounts earmarked for these two items.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I do not follow your question.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Do you find it reasonable, for example, that 10 times more would be spent on pest control than on minority communities? Or am I comparing things that are not comparable?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I do not think they are comparable.

    The Chair: I understand the point of your questions, Mr. Sauvageau, and I am not saying that they are inappropriate. However, they are perhaps not best addressed to the witnesses we have before us today. They are not the people who establish priorities: that is the job of politicians. Consequently, if the minister or her representative were present, your questions would perhaps be more appropriate.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: All right.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to emphasize that when Health Canada invests in the anti-smoking campaign, the investment is for everyone—francophones, anglophones and those who are neither.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Yes, but, rightly or wrongly, it is rather surprising to find that 7 per cent of the total budget goes to target smoking, drug and alcohol, and that 0.02 per cent of the budget is devoted to the francophone communities, even though the two items are considered priorities. That is an important point.

    If we consider the $24 million and all the action plans in place, we realize that it must cost almost half of the budget just to administer these action plans. We must be careful here.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I would like to make a comment if I may—and I do not want to be a difficult witness. The investment that was decided upon, the priorities that were established and the amounts spent on these priorities were determined in consultation with the communities, through the consultative committees. So the decision regarding the type of the investment that would be made was made in consultation with them. Of course, we could always invest more, but at some point, choices do have to be made. However, the investment we are making has their full support, and I think that both the anglophone and francophone committees are very pleased that this is a significant step forward compared to the situation that existed two or three years ago.

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    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Or even 10 years ago, because the budgets have just been restored to the 1993 level. Consequently, there's absolutely no doubt that when groups do not have cent and are suddenly offered $24 million, they are pleased, even though they need $200 million. As my mother said: “A bird in a hand is worth two in the bush”. So people are happy with this.

    Earlier, I mentioned Mr. Jacques Cloutier's name. While I did not conduct a comprehensive, statistical study, I did look at the telephone book for government officials in Ottawa. There are 41 pages of listings under Health Canada. On average, there are 100 names on each page. So there are approximately 4,000 Health Canada officials working in Ottawa. The Official Language Communities Support Office has five employees.

    I'm sorry, but it is all very well to put forward these fine-sounding action plans that contain all sorts of wonderful things, it seems to me that when $24 million of a total budget of $2.7 billion is devoted to this matter and when 5 people out of 4,000 in Ottawa are working on it, it does not matter how good our questions are, I think the numbers in human resources show that even though certain individuals... Please do not take this personally, because you have to—and I believe you—believe in this issue a great deal, but I think that 5 employees out of 4,000, and the budget I mentioned shows, that there is no real support for your efforts at the political level.

    I do not know whether you care to comment on that, or if you can, but...

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Definitely. We have a very efficient team. What is innovative about what we are doing in our follow-up to Minister Dion's action plan, is that we are transferring control for budget allocation to the communities themselves, because we think that the Société Santé en français is in the best position to understand the real needs in the field and to meet them.

    Consequently, we are not following the normal public service procedure—which involves getting budgets and administering them. We are giving this responsibility to the consortium. We are giving this responsibility to Santé en français. We have agreed on an accountability framework and an evaluation framework. We are working with them and we support them, but the main responsibility for succeeding, for obtaining the desired results, rests with Santé en français and the consortium, not with Health Canada officials.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I'm sure your right, but you must say the same thing about the Internet Applications Development Division, where there are about 10 times more employees than those who look after francophone minorities. You should tell them to adopt your excellent method, because to act and react as you do with five officials means that you are definitely a model that the public service should emulate. We could end up with 2,000 employees, rather than the huge number we have now. I find it rather disheartening to see...

    I will give my notes to the clerk, because I'm always being called after meetings to get copies of my notes. This is from the telephone book.

    I would like to know this from the committee. We want to help each other out in order to improve the situation. Now, I will proceed with somewhat more constructive questions.

    The Chair: You will have to wait for the second round, Mr. Sauvageau.

    Mr. Bellemare.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My colleague is getting excited because of the numbers.

    My question is about the way the program works. You say you transferred some funds to the communities. First, how much did you transfer to them, and how do you define “community”?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: My comments may have been too general, but the funding we got under the Dion Action Plan will ultimately be controlled by the consortium, for example. I believe we are talking about an investment of $69 million. I never have the right figures in my head; I am not good with figures. I am somewhat like Hubert Gauthier: those are details.

    However, the idea is that the money for training will be invested directly by the consortium, and the consortium will be responsible for the distribution of the money based on its business plan. It will also be required to report to us on its results.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: What is the consortium?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: The consortium is composed of a number of institutions. I have the list here. It includes institutions such as the University of Ottawa, some universities in Alberta, the Cité collégiale, and so on.

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    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: There must be a board of directors.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Definitely.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: How does the networking operate from the patient's point of view? You spoke about networking at the beginning of your remarks. Networking means several things, but how does it work in the case of assistance to francophones for better services in French, or, in some cases, for any service in French?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: As francophones, I think our concern is to be able to get health care services in our mother tongue when a day comes that we need them. That is the ultimate results we are trying to achieve with all these investments we are making.

    Networking brings together at the table, in the various provinces, community representatives, provincial government representatives and other key stakeholders. These people can work together, look at the situation and decide how best to improve the delivery of services to the francophone minority, in Ontario, for example.

    We have some funding that will be available under the adaptation fund. Within these networks, groups can best decide where they want to invest the money to improve service delivery. It is also within the networks that groups can ensure that the investments they make are part of the provincial strategic plan that will continue even once the funds have been spent.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Do you go over the heads of the provincial governments, which do receive money? Rather than giving the money to those responsible for health care administration in the provinces, do you give it rather to this steering group, the consortium?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: The consortium looks after training. The institutions will therefore receive the money directly, depending on the work plan which has been established.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: The federal government gives them the money directly, without going through the provinces?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Without going through the provinces, yes, that's correct.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Terrific.

    The training is carried out in which province and which...

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I can get the details about the consortium for you, if you give me a moment.

    The Chair: We're still talking about the consortium.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Which institutions are involved in the training initiative? There is the Université Sainte-Anne, the Université de Moncton, the University of Ottawa, Laurentian University, the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface, the Faculté Saint-Jean, the Cité collégiale, the Collège Boréal and the Collège de Campbelton.

    This does not mean, for instance, that the University of Ottawa will provide training exclusively for people from Ontario or living in the National Capital Region. As in the past, people from outside the province will be trained in French and will therefore be more motivated to practice in French when they will have completed their training. Ideally, they will practice in their own region.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I've noticed that at the Montfort Hospital, which I often visit, two of my physicians are anglophones, but they only speak French to me. I have always wondered where they studied. Do you intend to give anglophones training so they can practice in French? How would you go about it?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I know that the consortium is studying that issue. So, I don't have an answer for you, but it's true that there are anglophones who practice in French and francophones who practice in English. I know that the goal is to get francophones to practice in French, even though they study in English. We want to give them additional training to help them master the French medical jargon so they can practice in French. We will have strategies that go both ways to increase the number of people willing to practice in French.

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    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Thank you, Mr. Nouvet.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bellemare.

    Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

    We are here to discuss Bill C-202, and if I understood correctly, Mr. Nouvet, you said at the outset that the department had no intention of supporting this bill. Is that correct?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I think that the bill has been withdrawn, so, in my opinion, it's not an issue anymore.

    The Chair: You are entirely right, Mr. Nouvet. This was mentioned yesterday, but it will create some confusion. The order of reference from the House of Commons concerns a bill which no longer exists. It was withdrawn from the order. The subject is, if you let me simplify a bit, the creation of a legal right to access health services by minority official language communities.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: This is the part that worries me. Right now, we have an excellent action plan from minister Dion. Things will get done, things will be implemented and it will go well for a couple of years, but in the long run, what will this lead to? We have too often witnessed situations where monies are spent and then, two or three years later, the whole matter is dropped because it is no longer considered important. If this is not legally binding, then I am very worried. I wonder whether you are not worried as well.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: First, this is a five-year plan, not a two-year plan. Secondly, this plan will be based on an excellent accountability framework which was developed in collaboration with the consultative committees. Thus, an agreement was reached with them. We did not impose anything on them; we held the discussions, dialogues and debates and we agreed with them regarding the concrete, measurable results we wanted, as well as on the evaluation framework. Personally, I think that so long as our evaluations show that we are getting the desired results, that there are more francophone professionals and more francophones who are served by professionals in French and that the minority francophone clientele is more satisfied, we can demonstrate that the investment is paying off with true results and this allows us to ask for more funds.

    First, Health Canada recognized that the delivery of health care services is a provincial and territorial matter. And we have a much more successful approach, which emphasizes much more collaboration with provinces and listening to communities, in order to respond to their needs.

    If we take a look at the past, I think that in the 1970s, the federal government may not have been collaborating with the provinces on health matters as well as it is collaborating now. Further, in the 1970s, the public service was not used to listening to citizens as it is listening to them today. Things like the consultative committees, collaboration, the discussion of issues, the definition of main objectives and their subsequent reduction to make then fit into an available envelope, are things that did not exist in the 1970s. They now exist and we are reaping the advantages. Therefore, we believe that with an approach based on collaboration with our provincial and territorial partners and with minority communities, we can continue to make progress and to meet our objectives.

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    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: So, if I understand you correctly, you seem to believe that five years is long enough to create a new culture in the health sector when dealing with francophones outside of Quebec.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I do not think that we are starting from nothing. The network was already there in eastern Ontario before the Dion plan was announced. I think that there are many ministers in each jurisdiction who have a role to play with regard to francophone issue. I think that all the political decision-makers are well aware that health care is the public's chief priority. It seems to me that people are more aware of the francophone issued than they were 30 years ago. Society has evolved. I think that we can continue making progress and to progress much more quickly thanks to the added funds provided by the Dion plan. The main thing, in my opinion, is that we should actually be able, within three years and not five years, to make a first real evaluation that demonstrates that we have obtained concrete results.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: The results will be extremely important.

    I have one brief, final question. You mentioned a consortium, training, and so forth. British Columbia, at least in the Vancouver area, does have a rather large francophone population. Do you have any kind of contact with a university with regards to British Columbia francophones? Has anything been planned? They are far from Ottawa.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Yes. First, in British Columbia, Health Canada has a coordinator of relations with the minority francophone population. Secondly, the Société Santé en français will fund one or two networks--I do not have the exact number--in British Columbia. Third, British Columbia francophones will have access to supplementary training which will be provided by the Dion plan. Is some particular university being designated for them? I do not know, but they will have access.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Nothing has been decided yet.

    Thank you very much.

    The Chair: Mr. Simard, please.

    Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Welcome, Mr. Nouvet.

    Mr. Gauthier and his team say that collaboration with Health Canada is very good; this much is clear. On the other hand, if we look at the results of a study carried out by the FCFA, it tells us that accessibility to health care services in English is three to seven times higher than accessibility to services in French. Also, more than 50% of minority francophone community members have little or no access to health care in French. This is why I believe that what you have done with Mr. Gauthier's committee is just a beginning.

    We are told that introducing a six principle into the Canadian Health Act is a very complex proposition. Could you explain what process could lead to the introduction of a sixth principle?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I do not think that I have the technical and legal knowledge to explain this to you. There was an agreement in 2003. Premiers had to chose among priorities they were offered and they chose to agree on what they considered more strategic improvements. I think that they want to carry on in the same way, in a cooperative spirit. If we had to add another principle, it should be done in the same cooperative spirit with provinces, territories and the federal government.

    The Chair: Ms. Mandy, have you any comments with regard to Mr. Simard's question? I believe that this is your division.

[English]

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy (Director, Canada Health Act Division, Health Policy and Communications Branch, Department of Health): As Mr. Nouvet indicated, I'm not a legal expert, either. I believe that any amendment to the piece of legislation would have to go through the normal process through the House.

º  (1615)  

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I'd just like to know if the provinces have to be on board. Do we have to have permission from all provinces and the federal government? Somebody must know that. I thought it would be your people, actually.

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy: It's a piece of federal legislation, so it's within the prerogative of the federal government to make amendments to it. But as it is a shared responsibility, we would not want to do anything without the agreement of the provinces.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Can it be imposed by the federal government?

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy: I can't answer that authoritatively, but I would assume so since it is a piece of federal legislation.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Thank you. Merci.

[Translation]

    The Chair: I will forego my turn; I will be back shortly.

    Mr. Sauvageau.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Mr. Nouvet, a few moments ago you said that, after discussion, the consultative committee was asking for $119 million or thereabout. However, in its September 2001 plan, I think it was $245 million. They got 50%. They may be happy or unhappy about that, but it is 50% that they got.

    As you have clearly shown, there are a number of options for the federal government to reach agreements with the provinces, and it is primarily through those agreements with the provinces that it can contribute to improving health care services in minority communities.

    I am sure you are involved in some of those discussions. This means that I can ask you some questions about federal-provincial agreements on health care.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I am not involved in the negotiations, but I will be happy to answer your question if I can.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Do you think that health care statutes like those in New Brunswick...? Dr. Castonguay is not here, but in any case New Brunswick has legislation that provides for access to health care for francophones and anglophones. In Quebec, we have Bill 142. Other Canadian provinces do not seem to have similar legislation, according to my preliminary study.

    Do you believe provinces should have that kind of legislation which would make it easier to manage funding transfers to the provinces more effectively? We are going to be preparing a report, and we need concrete recommendations. It is not enough to say that there are five people in the telephone directory. So could we base some of our recommendations on this notion?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I think it would be worthwhile to carry out a proper evaluation to determine just what difference such legislation makes. The problems encountered by anglophones in Quebec are very similar to those encountered by francophones in minority communities. So here is the question we should be asking: Does the legislation really make a difference, or is it political will, commitment and awareness of needs that makes a difference?

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I am not going to list the services available in Quebec. However, there are more hospitals providing services to anglophones in Quebec than there are hospitals providing services to francophones in Alberta.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: But we also have an Official Languages Act that applies to the entire public service, and the biggest challenge in the public service is to be able to use French in the workplace. We can say we have legislation and stop there. We have the right to work and receive services in French. But it is only in exercising and demanding that right that we will obtain services.

    When I had to take my children to the hospital, I was addressed in English at reception... I think that these are excellent situations in which to demand our rights.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You are absolutely right. Thank you.

    Yesterday, during our discussion with Health Canada—in French—and the FCFA, we said that the federal government transfers funds to the provinces for health care. These are regular transfers. Do you think we should set more conditions on these transfers to ensure that part of them is earmarked for health care and services, to proactive efforts for people in minority communities—or do you think the system already works well?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: According to the latest evidence, the 2003 agreement, Health Canada and the federal government would rather take a cooperative approach. All investments made under the 2003 agreement are intended for all Canadians, for aboriginal people, francophones, anglophones and Canadians that are neither one or the other—with neither French or English as a mother tongue.

    We also have a responsibility to ensure that everyone receives equal services. We know that there are gaps, and I think some provincial governments are well aware of those gaps, and would like to do something about it. The networking initiative will accelerate the awareness-raising process for everyone. There is money available for additional investment to close these gaps, and I believe we have to give today's approach time and a chance to succeed. We are confident that it will succeed.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I have one last question, which is in two parts. Is there a portion of the transfer payments earmarked for aboriginal communities? If yes, that is perhaps a model we could apply elsewhere. I would have liked to ask you that question separately, but I have only one question left. So please answer if you wish.

    Here is my official question. Yesterday, we were talking about increasing and improving exchanges among nurses, physicians and therapists, somewhat like the program in place with the University of Sherbrooke, in order to rapidly increase the number of active healthcare professionals. We talked about having an experienced healthcare professional receive additional training or immersion in a French-language environment, then return to his own environment to provide active services in French. This is the sort of thing Mr. Bellemare meant earlier, when he talked about anglophones able to offer services in French.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Is that a question?

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Do you think we should increase and improve our efforts? Do you need money? Could we extend this sort of activity?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: In my view, everything will depend on the results obtained by the consortium over the next three years. In three years, we will have a very good idea. I think it is easier to defend budgets for activities that are clearly effective than it is to defend occasional expenditures that are difficult to explain.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you.

    The Chair: If I may, Mr. Nouvet, we already know that the consortium works; it was established following an announcement in January 1999, during the Montfort hospital crisis, when the Canadian government committed $10 million over five years—$2 million a year to train francophone medical personnel. The goal was to have 30 physicians and 60 other healthcare professionals; both goals were exceeded, if I remember correctly, before the establishment of a national consortium. So I think we can say even now that the outlook is good.

    I have a number of questions. I am somewhat concerned by things I have heard. We might have given the impression that the Canada Health Act, which already includes five principles, was created in cooperation with the provinces. But that was not my impression.

    Can you tell me—if you cannot, we will ask our researcher to do a bit of historical research—whether Monique Bégin, when she proposed the legislation in the early 1980s, had the agreement and support of all the provinces or of some provinces? I am not convinced she did. Can you shed some light on that, Ms. Mandy?

[English]

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy: I will try. When the Canada Health Act was brought in in 1984, it consolidated two previous pieces of legislation--the Hospital Insurance and Diagnostic Services Act of the late 1950s and the Medial Care Act of the 1960s. It was brought in to address problems that weren't adequately addressed in those other two pieces of legislation, in particular instances of extra billing and user charges. That was the primary reason it was brought in. To the extent that it consolidated existing legislation, I expect that the provinces were not entirely opposed to it, because it had already been in effect. While it received the unanimous support of the House of Commons, I believe that there was opposition from the provinces, as they were being pressured by their physician associations, which did not like the elimination of the extra billing. That led to, for example, strikes in Saskatchewan and Ontario by medical associations.

º  (1625)  

    The Chair: I'd like to pursue some of the impressions that people reading this transcript or listening to this might get. Would you suggest that at this point, through collaboration, there is no need for the five principles that are in the Canada Health Act, that we could do away with them because we're getting along so well with the provinces, Monsieur Nouvet?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I wouldn't suggest that.

[Translation]

    That was not the impression I meant to give you. The federal government's current strategy is geared to cooperating with the provinces and territories, and listening to minority communities. We are confident that this formula will help us make progress to close the gaps there are now.

    The Chair: I see.

[English]

    Madam Mandy, can you tell us if you or anyone else in the department has ever analyzed the relationship between some of the principles of the Canada Heath Act, accessibility in particular, and section 16 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy: No, I don't believe so.

    The Chair: Is this an exercise that someone in the department would care to undertake?

    The purpose of that question is that under the principle of accessibility, all Canadians are to have equal access. Is that not correct?

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy: The act refers to reasonable access on uniform terms and conditions. If you look at it in the context in which it is to be read, it is to ensure that there is no discrimination when people receive services, that no one is discriminated against because they are a smoker, elderly, or whatever.

    The Chair: The smoking part is an interesting situation, because something came up not too long ago in Manitoba, if I recall.

[Translation]

    Mr. Nouvet, I am running out of time, but I will come back to this during the next round.

    I belive you co-authored two reports : one for the francophone community and one for the anglophone community. In the report for the francophone community, the authors recognize that francophone minority communities have less access to healthcare services than majority communities.

    Does this run counter to, or could it be perceived as running counter to the principle of accessibility?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I am not a lawyer, and therefore I cannot answer that.

    The Chair: Has the department already asked Justice Canada for an opinion on this?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Not to my knowledge, but I think you have asked us to check.

    The Chair: And you will check that?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Yes.

    The Chair: Do you think that you will share the opinion with us? Generally, we are told that such opinions are covered by lawyer-client privilege, and they are not shared with us. Could we at least have something?

    I know that I am putting you in a somewhat difficult position, but...

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Yes, you are.

    The Chair: Well, then we will ask the minister.

    Do my colleagues on this side have any further questions?

    Mr. Simard.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I have a comment only. First of all, I think I should congratulate you for the excellent work the committee has done. It shows there is significant progress.

    However, Mr. Chairman, I am not sure whether it is our own researchers or departmental officials who should provide the information on the process to include a sixth principle. I would like some information on the roles of the provinces and the federal government. To my mind, those roles are very important. If we do make a recommendation along those lines, we have to know how complex the process would be. I would like the information, so please tell me who would provide it.

    The Chair: If I may, Mr. Simard, I will answer that question myself. It would be the responsibility of the Library of Parliament researcher to provide the information. From a purely technical standpoint, this is a legislative process we are all familiar with: it involves a proposal and all the procedures associated with it. But our witnesses have quite rightly pointed out that this process cannot take place in the vacuum. And that the context must be taken into consideration. So we need a comprehensive discussion. But from a purely technical standpoint...

º  (1630)  

    Mr. Raymond Simard: But in principal is provincial agreement necessary?

    The Chair: No.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: That is what I wanted to know.

    The Chair: That is very clear. In any case, I think that as we adopted the Canada Health Act in 1980, it was clear that not all provinces were in agreement.

    Mr. Sauvageau, do you have anything further?

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: No.

    The Chair: In that case, I will take some time.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I just wanted to thank Mr. Nouvet and Ms. Mandy for their well-prepared and informative comments.

    The Chair: If anyone wants to speak, please give me a sign and I will stop.

    If I may, Mr. Nouvet, I want to explore the financial aspects and the issue of cooperation with the provinces. At the outset, you said that the spirit of cooperation we were trying to foster could be felt. I think we could go back in time to determine what triggered the movement towards better access to health care a few years ago. That aspect is something else.

    If I understand correctly, the $75 million over five years in training funds added to the $10 million already granted will be directed to the consortium. But the anglophone communities' major problem is retention rather than training, I believe. Am I right in that?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Absolutely.

    The Chair: How and by whom will that money be used?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I don't think that question has been fully settled yet. We are looking at options along with the English-language consultative committee, but the situation and the solutions in Quebec would be different in our view.

    The Chair: Would the solution be transfers going through the provinces, or...?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: We are not there yet...

    The Chair: Have you consulted the provincial government about this?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: No, we have not.

    The Chair: For networking, there are direct transfers to both communities, I believe.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Exactly.

    The Chair: How can the Canadian government and the department use the transfers to ensure good cooperation with the provinces, with provincial governments?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I think that one of the really interesting aspects of the networking initiative is that the communities are acting as a link between the different levels of government. What we are doing is funding a minority community so that it can better understand the challenges and improve its chances of raising awareness among provincial and territorial governments and achieve their cooperation. Networking involves community representatives, health care professionals and governments—in other words, the parties involved in delivering health care services. This brings everyone around the table. And once people start talking, they generally manage to find solutions.

    The Chair: I agree with that.

    Could you now tell me something about the other $30 million envelope, which is also spread over five years? This comes from the $800 million for primary care which was part of the 2000 agreement, I believe. How will the $30 million be distributed?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: The $30 million is over three years, not five years, because that is when the adjustment fund comes to an end. If I remember correctly, the distribution is $20 million for francophones and $10 million for anglophones. Theoretically, Société Santé en français has already divided the funds among provinces and territories to give their members an idea of what funding will be available in a given province and territory. The networks are in fact responsible for selecting the kinds of projects they feel would benefit from investment, in line with adjustment fund criteria.

    The Chair: So it's the same scenario : we direct funds to organizations that represent the communities.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: It has not yet been decided whether the money will remain with Health Canada or whether it will go to Société Santé en français. However, the idea is that networks in minority communities will select and recommend projects to the government for approval.

º  (1635)  

    The Chair: How much money were the communities requesting for this?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I don't remember. For both communities, it was significantly more than $30 million.

    The Chair: Does anyone know what that figure is?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: It could be $100 million in all.

    The Chair: The $100 million were for training, Mr. Nouvet.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: There was $100 million for training, but there was also a significant amount for primary care, in the report of...

    The Chair: It would be good to obtain those figures and to notice how much had been requested.

    But what happens after three years?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Here again, we are going step by step. First of all we need to position ourselves. Then, in order to ask for more, we have to show that we are achieving good results with the investments we already have. There are no guarantees, however.

    The Chair: In other words, minority communities have to show they are making good use of taxpayers' money before they can continue obtaining services. Is that what it amounts to?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Yes.

    The Chair: That is very interesting.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: In the case of minority francophones, you have to be able to show that investing more improves access to primary health care services in French, and that those receiving these services, as well as those providing them, are happier.

    The Chair: Mr. Sauvageau would like to speak; so this will be my last question.

    I know that when the ministers responsible for francophone affairs met, they discussed health issues. That's obvious, because all the recommendations relating to training came from the meeting of ministers which was held in Whitehorse in 1997, if my memory serves me well.

    Do you know whether the issue of health care services for official language communities is on the agenda of the ministers' of health meetings, either on a regular basis or just once in a while?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I'm not sure, but if I understood correctly what I was told, I think that the issue was discussed at those meetings.

    The Chair: Can the content of these meetings be made public?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Can it be made public?

    The Chair: At least the agenda.

    We'll revisit the issue.

    Mr. Sauvageau.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Everything you've said is basically Greek to me, and I know you know this. I will therefore ask my question by using an example. Say a couple of million dollars—I really don't know how much—is earmarked for Saskatchewan, for instance. Is it possible to know how much of this money will, on the one hand go to the communities and, on the other hand, go to the health care system in general? In other words, how much does the consortium, or the Société Santé en français, receive?

    Say the federal government transfers $100 million—it's not an accurate figure—to Saskatchewan. Of these $100 million, 10 million go to the consortium. The consortium, which is made up of francophone communities, spends or invests the money in this area.

    So, is it possible for the provinces to find out precisely where the money goes?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Are you talking about the money contained in the action plan unveiled by Minister Dion?

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: What I would like to know is how the general amount is transferred, that is, the amounts Health Canada gives the provinces—I talked about Saskatchewan, but it could just as well have been Quebec or any other province—and how...

    The Chair: Are you talking about the Canada Social Transfer for health and social programs?

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That's right. But only if it's feasible, of course. In the next row over, you have the $120 million under the Dion plan. I would like to know how it works.

    I don't think we should put the cart before the horse. Before looking for solutions for the future, you have to understand what the problem is. If you don't know how the transfers are done today, it is hard to suggest changes for the future. So, to help us, could you provide us with this information as it applies to a province or to every province.

º  (1640)  

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: With regard to the Canada Health and Social Transfer, there are no conditions or provisions dealing with linguistic duality; further, this program belongs to the Department of Finance. The transfer is based on the population of a province. Of course, the money is spent based on the number of citizens. As far as I understand, once a transfer occurs under this program, the government does not say how much should go to francophones and how much should go to others.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That's not reviewed?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: What is not reviewed?

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: How the money is spent. Since no conditions are attached, there is no review.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I think that the matter is reviewed, right? There is no distinction between anglophones and francophones, but we make sure that the principles are upheld.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I am a little surprised and upset, but I have another question.

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I have only been with the department for a year, so I haven't yet taken in everything.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Within the framework of the Dion action plan, of the $120 million, some of that will...

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: None of that money goes to Saskatchewan, if that is what you were going to ask. Money is transferred to the consortium. The consortium developed a business plan in cooperation with participating institutions. I don't think that there are any in Saskatchewan. The money will be distributed based on the business plan decided by the consortium.

    As for networking, the money is controlled by the Société Santé en français, which has already decided--I don't know exactly what the amounts are--how much will go to the Saskatchewan network. A bit more will go to Ontario, which has a greater population, a bit less to Newfoundland, which has fewer francophones, and so on.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You say you don't know exactly how much, which I can understand. But could you provide us with those figures?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Ideally, I think you should ask that question of Santé en français, which breaks down the money by region.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you very much.

    The Chair: I would like to come back to the legal aspect. You talked about the Canadian Health and social Transfer. Does the government of Canada legislation apply to the administration of those programs? I am referring to legislation on good financial management, or laws which require the amounts be broken down and audited; that kind of thing.

[English]

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy: I'm not sure I understand your question.

    The Chair: I'm trying to set you up here.

    Mrs. Gigi Mandy: The criteria, conditions, and provisions of the Canada Health Act are related to the transfers to the provinces under the Canada health and social transfer in that they don't get their full share of the federal contribution unless they meet the criteria of the act.

    But beyond that, I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you're getting at with your question.

    The Chair: I'm going back to the Constitution and whether or not in a general manner the actions of the department, which is an institution, are subject to that Constitution. I'll refer you to section 16 in particular, which I was asking about awhile ago.

[Translation]

    Subsection 16(1) says:

16.(1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.

    Does the Department of Health sign the agreements with the provinces?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Are you talking about the money transfers? I think it's between the Department of Finance and the provinces.

    The Chair: In that case, we will put the question to the Department of Finance. The Department of Finance is a government institution. Doesn't the Finance Department--the same applies to the Department of Health--have to abide by all the provisions of the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: Who has to abide by that? The jurisdictions which deliver the services?

    The Chair: No, the jurisdictions which transfer the funds. We will have to study that issue more closely. It's not fair to ask you that question, but I would like to come back to the legal aspect of the situation.

    Can you tell us, or can you look into the matter and send us the information, without sending us the ruling, if the Department of Health has sought a legal opinion with regard to the application of section 16 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and whether it applies to the Canada Health Act and the Canada Health and Social Transfer? If so, we will try to get it. I am not sure how successful it will be, but we will give it our best shot.

    Mr. Sauvageau.

º  (1645)  

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I am not asking them the question; I am asking you. I think that even when funds are transferred to a third party, the law and the Constitution apply as well.

    The Chair: That's an underlying issue to the matter at hand. There is no doubt about it.

    I will conclude.

    Mr. Nouvet, when the House of Commons gave us this order of reference, the Minister of Health and Mr. Dion sent us a letter which we distributed and in which they asked us to study, apart from a possible legal framework protecting the right of official languages communities to receive health care services in their own language, whether there were other alternatives, such as creating a transfer program in cooperation with the provinces, modeled on education transfer payments, and to consult with communities and provinces, something we hope to do. Have there been discussions within the department with regard to the creation of such a program, which would look like the one the Department of Heritage has for education?

    Mr. Marcel Nouvet: I would be surprised if such discussions had not been held over the years, but I am not aware that such discussions would have been held recently. But I can look into it.

    The Chair: Yes, please do so and send the clerk the information so we can follow the issue. Perhaps we should invite the minister at some point. I have no further questions for now.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I would like to ask you something, Mr. Chairman. After the meeting, I was wondering if I could speak to you informally and ask you a couple of questions?

    The Chair: Certainly.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Nouvet and Ms. Mandy, for being here today. I think you have shown us that the task we have set ourselves is perhaps harder than we had thought.

    I would like to remind my colleagues that on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week, we will have two meetings on another subject, French-language television production outside of Montreal and Quebec. On Tuesday, we will hear from officials from the Department of Heritage, the Canadian Television Fund and the Alliance des producteurs francophones du Canada. On Wednesday, we will be hearing from officials from Telefilm Canada and from television broadcasters TFO and Radio-Canada.

    Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): At what time?

    The Chair: At the usual time, that is, 9:00 a.m. on Tuesday morning and 3:30 p.m. on Wednesday afternoon. The clerk will advise you of the committee rooms.

    The following week, on June 10, we will hear from the Minister of Defence, Mr. McCallum. As for subsequent meetings, that is to be determined.

    Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You probably already know that the decision has been taken denying the committee the opportunity to travel.

    The Chair: No, I did not know.

º  (1650)  

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Well, it's true. It seems that the Canadian Alliance denied us travel privileges. I learned it this morning at about 8:00 a.m., and I wanted to tell you.

    Second, I was away at some point and the clerk received a letter which I sent to the embassies, but which had to be translated and tabled. Has that been done?

    The Committee Clerk: Yes, that was done.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It was done while I was away. Fine. I have just started getting replies, responses. So I just wanted to...

    The Chair: I will go see my House Leader to see what can be done. The committee's Canadian Alliance member did not object to us travelling. We will have to get to the bottom of the matter.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: This morning, I was told that everyone was in agreement except for the Canadian Alliance. That's why...

    The Chair: Thank you.

    The meeting is adjourned.