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View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
I am surprised that in your evidence you don't make reference to two people who I think played a very big role in this drama, the Clerk of the Privy Council and the lawyer for SNC-Lavalin.
I'm going to ask how it is that you don't seem to recognize that the heaviest intimidation of our former attorney general came from one-on-one meetings with the Clerk of the Privy Council on September 19 and with that following phone call on December 19?
I will let you know I completely believe every word we heard from Jody Wilson-Raybould, without a doubt, so how is it that your evidence doesn't make reference to his actions, and did you know that he was going to phone her at home on December 19 and make veiled threats?
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
I would only say, Gerry, that I still think that your evidence could be consistent with Jody Wilson-Raybould's to the extent that you were massively distracted by other events out of town for four weeks and could have forgotten things, but I don't find contradictions to the extent of he-said-she-said.
I'll move on to Frank Iacobucci, who is described in the one-on-one meeting that the former attorney general had with the Clerk as “not a shrinking violet”. In the same period of time when there was a lot of pressure from SNC-Lavalin, Mr. Iacobucci—who of course is a distinguished former Supreme Court judge—was retained by the Prime Minister's office to handle the indigenous consultations on the Kinder Morgan matter.
Did that lead to you having conversations with SNC-Lavalin's lawyer on the subject of these threats that they might leave the country?
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Can I ask, then, if you sought independent evidence of any evidence that there was a threat to jobs? This is all riding on the threat to jobs, but based on their 2018 audited financial statements, SNC-Lavalin currently has $15 billion in back orders. They have a very secure financial situation, with gross revenues of $10 billion.
Is there any evidence that jobs were actually going to be at stake by letting this go through the courts and letting the independent director of public prosecutions and the Attorney General do their jobs?
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Thanks for the latitude from my colleagues around the table.
If I were able to vote on this, I would ask that Jody Wilson-Raybould come back to respond to the evidence from Mr. Butts.
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Gilakas'la. I want to ask something very clearly and then move to a different line of questioning from what others have been asking.
First of all, do you believe that, individually or collectively, the pressure to which you were subjected contravened the Criminal Code?
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
There are a lot of power relationships we've been discussing. Most of the questions have gone to the power relationships around political actors, the chief of staff, the principal secretary to the Prime Minister and your role with two hats, judicial and cabinet hats.
However, there's a very prominent role being played by, I think, unusual actors in the civil service, where the power relationship is that the Clerk of the Privy Council is the boss of the deputy minister at the Department of Justice, and down through the chain, with you essentially acting as a bulwark to protect the independence of the director of public prosecutions.
I wanted to go back to your testimony, as there were a couple of places where you mentioned some things, and I wondered if they were concerning to you, and if so, why.
In chronological order, you mentioned that, on September 7, the deputy minister was able to have certain sections of the section 13 notice read aloud to her, but she did not want to receive or be given a copy of it. Was that in any way concerning to you? It's included in your testimony; I just wanted to pursue it.
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Going to September 17, you described the meeting you had requested of the Prime Minister on a different topic; it was supposed to be a one-on-one meeting, by which I infer that you did not expect the Clerk of the Privy Council to be present when you went to meet with the Prime Minister. Is that correct?
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
In the context of the pressure that was being applied and the political concerns that were being raised, I'm going to put forward a positive statement and see if you agree.
The appropriate role for the Clerk of the Privy Council is to support an Attorney General who says, “You're on dangerous ground here; back off; this is political interference”. The job of the civil service is to remain non-partisan and give good advice. Did you think the Clerk of the Privy Council was behaving appropriately in applying political pressure to anyone, in this case?
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Do you believe that the Clerk of the Privy Council appeared to be placing your deputy minister of justice under pressure that could have affected her confidence in her job security?
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Okay.
Lastly, you said that you—
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Thank you.
I'm so grateful to you, Wayne. Thank you.
First of all, thank you. What a stellar panel of the thought leaders in Canada and the researchers on carbon pricing. On this conversation we're having, bearing in mind that you're not climate scientists and you handled some of those questions that weren't in your area, I'm very grateful to you for being here.
Some of the back and forth reminded me of a comment by a climate scientist, Dr. Katharine Hayhoe, who said recently—and I'm paraphrasing—that it's so strange that some people seem more afraid of taking action on climate change and are fearful of what that will cost them than they are of the failure to take action and the loss of human civilization. We have rather large risks that we're dealing with, and we're not dealing with them quite adequately.
I will parenthetically note to this committee, because I'm not a member of it, that maybe in camera you could consider linking by video conference with who I think is right now the leader globally in calling for climate action: 16-year-old Greta Thunberg from Sweden. Perhaps you can bring her in by video link.
I want to take the time I have, which I'm rapidly losing, to focus on what we can do beyond carbon pricing. Just to be really clear so you all know, I was the only opposition member of Parliament who voted for the whole budget in order to vote for carbon pricing, because it's that important. But it's way less than what's enough, because we now know that the Paris target, as we refer to it, of 30% below 2005 levels by 2030, is wholly inadequate to hold us to 1.5°C, which we must do.
I want to direct this to you, David Sawyer, because I know you were the lead on a really big project called “Deep Decarbonization”, pathways to deep decarbonization, and did the Canadian piece. I wonder if you would share with us what your main findings were on the steps that Canada needs to take to really move to deep decarbonization.
View Elizabeth May Profile
GP (BC)
Can I ask quickly where you would put efficiencies in the east-west electricity grid to deliver renewables?
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