JUST Committee Meeting

     Honourable members of the committee, I see a quorum.

    I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, cannot entertain points of order, nor participate in debate.

    Your first task today is to elect a chair for this committee. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the government party.

    I'm ready to receive motions for the chair.

    Yes, Mr. Maloney.

    Thank you, Clerk.

    I would like to nominate our colleague Iqra Khalid.

    We have Mr. Maloney nominating Ms. Khalid.

    Are there any further nominations?

    Are there any further motions?

    (Motion agreed to)

    I declare the motion carried and Ms. Khalid duly elected chair of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. I invite her to take a seat beside me.

     Good morning.

    Good afternoon everyone.

    Thank you, first, for your trust in me to chair this committee. I'm sure it will be very invigorating and challenging. I've been on this committee for the past four years, and we've had the privilege of tabling some really wonderful reports, most of which were consensus based. We've had a wonderful relationship between all members and really talked about the issues that matter to our community and country. I'm looking forward to having that same kind of consensus and spirit of collaboration as we continue this committee.

    With that, I will go on to seeing about the vice-chairs for the committee. I will canvass the room for vice-chairs.

    Mr. Maguire.

    I would like to put forward the name of Rob Moore, my colleague.

     I am handing it over to the clerk.

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

    We have Mr. Maguire proposing Mr. Moore.

    Are there any further motions?

    (Motion agreed to)

    I declare the motion carried and Mr. Moore duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.

    Congratulations.

    Pursuant to the Standing Orders, the second vice-chair must be a member of an opposition party other than the official opposition.

    I'm now ready to receive motions for the second vice-chair.

    Mr. Virani, you have the floor.

    I nominate Mr. Rhéal Fortin of the Bloc Québécois as second vice-chair of the committee.

    It has been moved by Mr. Virani, that Mr. Fortin be elected second vice-chair.

    Are there any further nominations?

    (Motion agreed to)

    I declare the motion carried and Mr. Fortin duly elected second vice-chair of the committee.

    Congratulations to all concerned.

    That said, I now yield the floor to Madam Chair.

    Thank you.

    We'll move on to routine motions.

    Mr. Maloney.

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I have a number of routine motions that I've had prepared in French and English. I'm going to move the first one shortly, but I'd like to pass it around, with your permission. I will wait a moment until everyone has a copy.

    I believe everyone has a copy, Madam Chair.

     Does everybody have a copy? Yes.

    Mr. Maloney, will you continue?

    Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I move:

     All in agreement?

    (Motion agreed to)

     Can I then invite our wonderful analysts, who have been so amazing over the past four years, to please come and join us at the table?

    Some hon. members: Hear, hear!

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I also move:

     Are all in agreement?

    (Motion agreed to)

    Okay, moving right along, I also move:

     Are all in agreement with that?

    Mr. Garrison.

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I'd like to propose an amendment that would establish that a quorum requires two members of the government and two members of the opposition. I have that text here, which reads as follows:

     Would you like to circulate that text, please?

    While it's being circulated, may I speak to it briefly?

     Of course.

    I think that in a minority Parliament we have to go the extra mile here to work toward getting consensus, and by having a requirement that there be two members of the opposition present, we would go a bit further than we've normally gone in minority parliaments toward achieving that, even if there is no full quorum. That is my reason for proposing the amendment.

     Thank you.

    I'm just going to wait until the text is circulated to everybody and then ask if anybody else has any comments to make.

    Do all members have the text in front of them? Yes.

    Is there any debate on this amendment?

    (Amendment agreed to)

    (Motion as amended agreed to)

     Wonderful.

    Can we move on?

    Mr. Virani.

    Mr. Garrison, there's an additional piece that's added. There is some additional language in your proposed amendment that talks about before they may proceed to hear witnesses, etc. Is that just for further clarity?

    Sorry, I ended up without a copy.

    Yes, it's just to further clarify the established practice.

    One second.

     For clarity, Mr. Garrison, this is specifically for when the committee is travelling?

    Yes, that clause applies.

    With respect, Madam Chair, I believe we have adopted the motion.

     It seems that way. Thank you.

    Routine motions.

    We're on the fourth routine motion, Madam Chair?

    It's on the questioning of witnesses, I believe.

    Yes, I will move it.

    I move:

     Thank you, Mr. Virani.

    (Motion agreed to)

     Thank you.

    Mr. Virani.

    Here is the motion concerning the distribution of documents.

    All agreed?

    (Motion agreed to)

     Thank you.

    Mr. Virani.

    And now, Madam Chair, the most important thing: working meals.

     Is there any debate on this?

    Can we ensure the high quality of such meals?

    May we amend the motion so as to include a cocktail before the meals?

     During our last parliamentary session, our clerk took very good care of us with quite extravagant breakfasts. We really appreciated the hot breakfast very early in the morning. Thank you for that, Mr. Clerk.

    (Motion agreed to)

     Wonderful.

    Mr. Zuberi.

    I'd like to move the remaining motion.

    Regarding witnesses' travel and accommodation expenses, I move:

    With respect to the next motion on the presence of staff—

     Hold on, Mr. Zuberi.

    Specifically on witness expenses, is there any debate?

    (Motion agreed to)

     That's wonderful.

    Thank you.

    Mr. Zuberi, you can continue.

    Thank you.

    I move the next motion, regarding staff at in camera meetings:

     Is there any debate on this?

    (Motion agreed to)

     Thank you.

    Mr. Kelloway.

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I move the following:

    Are we in agreement?

    (Motion agreed to)

     Thank you.

    Mr. Garrison.

    I have an additional motion on in camera proceedings that's not covered by these motions. Since we're dealing with in camera meetings right now, would you like me to deal with that now or me to wait until the conclusion of these motions?

     If it's okay with you, can we wait until the conclusion of the motions? Thank you.

    Mr. Sangha.

    I move the following:

     Thank you, Mr. Sangha.

    (Motion agreed to)

     Thank you.

    Next is Mr. Virani.

    I move, regarding independent members and clause-by-clause consideration:

     Thank you, Mr. Virani.

    (Motion agreed to)

     Thank you.

    Those are all the ones that have been tabled by Mr. Maloney and colleagues.

    Moving on to Mr. Garrison, you had something related to in camera meetings.

    Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

    I have given a copy to the staff. They have copies in both languages; they might want to give them out for distribution.

    The motion does two things. One is that it attempts to establish reasons for going in camera, to make it very clear that there are only certain matters that should be dealt with in camera by this committee, those being administrative matters, the committee draft reports—

    Mr. Garrison, sorry to interrupt. Could you just excuse me, as the documents are being distributed, so that everybody is looking at the document as you speak about it?

    Thank you for your patience.

    Does everyone have the documents in front of you?

    Yes? You guys are a lively bunch, eh?

    Mr. Garrison.

    Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

    There are two things, really, in this motion. One is to establish the reasons, as I said, for going in camera and to make sure that we do most of our business in public, as I think is our responsibility. It sets out three things: administrative matters of the committee, draft reports and briefings concerning national security. It also says that motions to go in camera would be debatable, which they have not always been in all committees, in my experience.

    Second, it says that if there are recorded votes taken in the in camera session, those would be made public as a part of the minutes of the in camera meetings. Rather than just saying a recorded vote was taken, the minutes of the meeting would give the results of a recorded vote. I believe this motion has been adopted in similar if not identical form by other committees in this Parliament. I move it for consideration.

     Thank you.

    Before we go to debate, I believe our clerk has some flags to raise about this motion in terms of procedure at committees.

    I pass it over to you, Mr. Clerk.

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

    As I was mentioning to the chair, this motion raises two things to my attention.

    The first is that if we look at what the Standing Orders provide for the House of Commons to sit in secret or in camera—because that possibility is available to the House as well—or conversely, to move from being in secret to being in public, this motion, pursuant to the Standing Orders, is non-debatable and non-amendable.

    To make a very long story short, basically what applies to the House applies also to the committees, as far as they can be applicable to the committees' universe.

    What I was asking the chair is whether it's possible to ask the committee to maybe postpone this specific issue until the next meeting, so I can inquire about it, look into it, take a look at some precedents maybe, and come back with advice that has been deeply researched.

    The second thing I want to mention is with regard to the last part of the motion, where you mention that all votes taken in camera would now be recorded in the, let us say, the in camera minutes of proceedings. I just want to get the green light from the committee that I could also include the text of the motions these votes would be related to. I know that there are have many, many readers of the minutes of the proceedings. If you only see a vote but you don't know what the members have voted on, to me, it wouldn't provide more information. It wouldn't make any sense.

    So I just want to also get the okay from the committee that we can add the text of the motions that have been voted on.

     Thank you for that.

    Mr. Virani, did you have a comment?

    I think what the clerk has raised makes sense, but I'm going to piggyback on a few things. One is that there's an old phrase in law that you can't do through the back door what you are impeded from doing through the front door. If you start getting into situations where you're disclosing not just how people voted in camera but what they voted on in camera, then it would render a bit futile the notion of going in camera, right?

    The same argument is made in a legal context when you're disclosing billable hours and what you talked.... There's a lot of fertile litigation about how you describe what the billing was for, because in being too detailed in the description, you're disclosing solicitor-client privilege, which is very much sacrosanct to the work of a lawyer.

    The work of a committee, when it's being done in camera for very sensitive reasons—some of which were outlined by Mr. Garrison—equally needs to be protected, so we can have those robust and frank discussions that need to take place in certain contexts in a confidential manner.

    So I would have some concerns about the latter part of the motion, including not just publishing the results of a vote but also publishing the results of what was voted upon, because that is effectively, to my mind, doing through the back door what we can't do through the front door.

    There are two other things that I would raise for the clerk and for all of us to ponder. The first part of Mr. Garrison's motion think makes a lot of sense, but there are times when we discuss witness selection, and that is something that we would want to see protected in the in camera context.

     As an additional matter, there is the issue of personal confidential information, as you can imagine. We did a study in this committee on human trafficking. There are times when people might be testifying here when, because of the sensitive nature of what they've experienced and sensitivity to victims, we wouldn't want that personal confidential information entering the public domain.

    That's some food for thought that I put on the record now.

     Thank you, Mr. Virani.

    Mr. Garrison.

    Thanks very much. I would value the clerk's advice on the motion, so I have no objection to its being put off.

    I would also suggest, given the discussion we've had, that we might want to separate this into two motions, since there are substantive differences between the two.

    I certainly take Mr. Virani's point about sensitive witness information and would be prepared to add a (d) to cover that.

     In that instance, then, we will wait for the clerk to come back to us at our next meeting to talk about his findings. At that time, based on the feedback from today and what we hear from the clerk, maybe we can draft a new motion, which you would perhaps like to present, Mr. Garrison, to deal with this.

    We will at that time debate and vote on it, if that's okay.

    Madam Chair, I'll take it upon myself to split these into two motions and to try to accommodate Mr. Virani's concerns.

     Thank you for that, Mr. Garrison.

    Are there any other routine motions to be discussed at this time?

    I am not hearing any, so having finished our committee business, I will adjourn this meeting.