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Minutes of Proceedings

42nd Parliament, 1st Session
Meeting No. 46
Tuesday, November 29, 2016, 3:32 p.m. to 7:50 p.m.
Presiding
Robert Oliphant, Chair (Liberal)

• Michel Boudrias (Bloc Québécois)
• Elizabeth May (Green Party)
• Murray Rankin (NDP)
Library of Parliament
• Tanya Dupuis, Analyst
• Dominique Valiquet, Analyst
 
House of Commons
• Philippe Méla, Legislative Clerk
• Marie-France Renaud, Legislative Clerk
Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
• John Davies, Director General, National Security Policy
Privy Council Office
• Nancy Miles, Senior Legal Counsel
• Heather Sheehy, Director of Operations, Machinery of Government
• Allen Sutherland, Assistant Secretary, Machinery of Government
Pursuant to the Order of Reference of Tuesday, October 4, 2016, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-22, An Act to establish the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and to make consequential amendments to certain Acts.

The Committee commenced its clause-by-clause study of the Bill.

The witnesses answered questions.

Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of Clause 1 (Short Title), was postponed.

The Chair called Clause 2.

By unanimous consent, Clause 2 was allowed to stand.

Clause 3 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 0.

Clause 4 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 0.

On Clause 5,

Tony Clement moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 9 on page 3 with the following:

“ed by the Governor in Council as follows and hold office during pleasure until the dissolution of Parliament following their appointment:

(a) members of the government party, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister; and

(b) members who belong to a party that is not the government party, according to the selection by the leader of that party after consultation with the Prime Minister.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Tony Clement and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

Pam Damoff moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 5, be amended by adding after line 9 on page 3 the following:

“(1.1) After a general election, the members of the Committee are to be appointed within 60 days after the day on which Parliament is summoned to sit.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Pam Damoff and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 0.

Marco Mendicino moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing lines 10 to 12 on page 3 with the following:

“(2) A member of the Senate may be appointed to the Committee only after the Prime Minister has consulted with the persons referred to in paragraphs 62(a) and (b) of the Parliament of Canada Act and the leader of every caucus and of every recognized group in the Senate.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Marco Mendicino and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 5; NAYS: 4.

Tony Clement moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing lines 13 to 18 on page 3 with the following:

“(3) The Committee must include members of the House of Commons who belong to a party that is not the government party and that has a recognized membership of 12 or more persons in that House.

(3.1) The Prime Minister determines, after consultation with the leader of every recognized party in the House of Commons, the number of members of each recognized party that are to be members of the Committee, having regard to the composition of the House of Commons as a whole.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Tony Clement and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Michel Boudrias for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 5, be amended by adding after line 18 on page 3 the following:

“(3.1) A member of the House of Commons who belongs to a party that is not the government party and that has a recognized membership of fewer than 12 persons in that House may be appointed to the Committee only after the Prime Minister has consulted with the leader of that party.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Michel Boudrias and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 9.

Clause 5, as amended, carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 5; NAYS: 4.

On Clause 6,

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Elizabeth May for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing lines 28 to 35 on page 3 with the following:

“6 (1) The Chair of the Committee is chosen by the members of the Committee.

(2) If the Chair is absent or incapacitated or the office of Chair is vacant, the Committee may designate any one of its members to act as Chair.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Elizabeth May and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 9.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing lines 28 to 35 on page 3 with the following:

“6 (1) The Chair of the Committee is chosen by the members of the Committee from among those members who are not of the government party.

(2) If the Chair is absent or incapacitated or the office of Chair is vacant, the Committee may designate any one of its members to act as Chair.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Matthew Dubé and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 1; NAYS: 5.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Michel Boudrias for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing lines 28 to 30 on page 3 with the following:

“6 (1) The members of the Committee designate the Chair of the Committee.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Michel Boudrias and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 8.

Tony Clement moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 6, be amended

(a) by replacing lines 28 to 30 on page 3 with the following:

“6 (1) The Chair of the Committee is designated by a majority vote by secret ballot of the members of the Committee.”

(b) by replacing lines 32 to 35 on page 3 with the following:

“Chair is vacant, the Committee must designate one of its other members to act as Chair, but the member must not be so designated for more than 90 days, following which the Committee must designate a new member to act as Chair.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Tony Clement and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

Clause 6 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 5; NAYS: 3.

Clause 7 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 0.

On Clause 8,

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Michel Boudrias for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 8, be amended

(a) by replacing, in the English version, line 6 on page 4 with the following:

“8 The mandate of the Committee is to”

(b) by replacing, in the English version, line 7 on page 4 with the following:

“(a) review the legislative, regulatory, policy, administrative”

(c) by deleting lines 10 to 13 on page 4.

(d) by replacing, in the English version, line 14 on page 4 with the following:

“(c) review any matter relating to national security or intelli-”

(e) by adding after line 16 on page 4 the following:

“(d) report publicly on its activities, conclusions and recommendations.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Michel Boudrias and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 8.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 8, be amended by replacing lines 11 to 13 on page 4 with the following:

“lates to national security or intelligence; and”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Matthew Dubé and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Tony Clement, Matthew Dubé, Larry Miller, Dianne L. Watts — 4;

NAYS: Pam Damoff, Nicola Di Iorio, Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Marco Mendicino, Sven Spengemann — 5.

Tony Clement moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 8, be amended by replacing lines 11 to 16 on page 4 with the following:

“lates to national security or intelligence.”

The question was put on the amendment of Tony Clement and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Tony Clement, Matthew Dubé, Larry Miller, Dianne L. Watts — 4;

NAYS: Pam Damoff, Nicola Di Iorio, Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Marco Mendicino, Sven Spengemann — 5.

Marco Mendicino moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 8, be amended

(a) by replacing lines 11 and 12 on page 4 with the following:

“lates to national security or intelligence, unless the activity is an ongoing activity and the appropriate Minister determines that the review would”

(b) by adding after line 16 on page 4 the following:

“(2) If the appropriate Minister determines that a review would be injurious to national security, he or she must inform the Committee of his or her determination and the reasons for it.

(3) If the appropriate Minister determines that the review would no longer be injurious to national security or if the appropriate Minister is informed that the activity is no longer ongoing, he or she must inform the Committee that the review may be conducted.”

Debate arose thereon.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That the amendment be amended, in paragraph (a), by adding after the words “unless the activity is an ongoing“, the following: "operational"

Debate arose thereon.

By unanimous consent, the subamendment was withdrawn.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That the amendment be amended, in paragraph (a), by replacing the words "ongoing activity" with the words "ongoing operation".

Debate arose thereon.

At 4:56 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 5:00 p.m., the sitting resumed.

The question was put on the subamendment of Matthew Dubé and it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Tony Clement, Pam Damoff, Matthew Dubé, Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Larry Miller, Dianne L. Watts — 6;

NAYS: Nicola Di Iorio, Marco Mendicino, Sven Spengemann — 3.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That the amendment be amended, in paragraph (a), by adding after the words “and the appropriate Minister determines” the following: “, after consulting with the Chair of the Committee on all options to mitigate harm to the efficacy of the operation,”

The question was put on the subamendment of Matthew Dubé and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 3; NAYS: 5.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That the amendment be amended, in paragraph (b), by adding after the words “to national security, he or she must inform the Committee” the following: “and the appropriate review body if applicable”

After debate, the question was put on the subamendment of Matthew Dubé and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That the amendment be amended, in paragraph (b), by adding after the words “no longer ongoing, he or she must inform the Committee“ the following: "within seven days"

After debate, the question was put on the subamendment of Matthew Dubé and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Marco Mendicino, as amended, and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 1.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Elizabeth May for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 8, be amended by adding after line 16 on page 4 the following:

“(2) Before making any determination under paragraph (1)(b), the appropriate Minister must take into account the fact that the members and former members of the Committee are persons permanently bound to secrecy, as defined in subsection 8(1) of the Security of Information Act.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Elizabeth May and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 9.

Clause 8, as amended, carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 5; NAYS: 4.

Clause 9 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 8; NAYS: 0.

On Clause 10,

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Elizabeth May for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 10, be amended by deleting lines 23 and 24 on page 4.

The question was put on the amendment of Elizabeth May and it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 8.

Clause 10 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 6; NAYS: 0.

Clause 11 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 0.

On Clause 12,

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Elizabeth May for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 12, be amended by deleting lines 14 to 19 on page 5.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Elizabeth May and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 9.

Clause 12 carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 8; NAYS: 0.

On Clause 13,

Matthew Dubé moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 13, be amended by replacing lines 20 to 32 on page 5 with the following:

“13 The Committee has the power to summon any person to appear as a witness before it and to order them to

(a) give evidence, orally or in writing, on oath or, if the person is entitled to affirm in civil matters, on solemn affirmation; and

(b) produce any documents and things that it deems requisite for the performance of its duties and functions.”

Debate arose thereon.

By unanimous consent, the amendment was withdrawn and the Committee authorized Nathaniel Erskine-Smith to move a new amendment immediately.

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 13, be amended by replacing line 21 on page 5 with the following:

“to sections 14 and 16, the Committee is entitled to send for persons, papers and records, and to have”

Debate arose thereon.

At 5:45 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 115(5), the sitting was suspended.

At 6:45 p.m., the sitting resumed.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Nathaniel Erskine-Smith and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 5; NAYS: 4.

Clause 13, as amended, carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 0

On Clause 14,

Matthew Dubé moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 14, be amended by replacing line 33 on page 5 to line 29 on page 6 with the following:

“14 (1) Despite any other Act of Parliament or any privilege under the law of evidence, but subject to subsection (2), the Committee is entitled to have access to any information under the control of a department that relates to the performance of the Committee's duties and functions and to receive from the department's employees such information, reports and explanations as the Committee deems necessary for the performance of its duties and functions.

(2) No information described in subsection (1), other than a confidence of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada as defined in subsection 39(2) of the Canada Evidence Act, may be withheld from the Committee on any grounds.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Matthew Dubé and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

The Chair ruled that the following amendment was consequential to the previous amendment and therefore it was also negatived:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 47, be amended by replacing lines 15 to 20 on page 16 with the following:

“formation under the control of the Centre that would assist the Minister in exercising his or her powers or performing his or her duties or functions under the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act.”

Tony Clement moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 14, be amended by replacing line 33 on page 5 to line 29 on page 6 with the following:

“14 The Committee has the power to summon any person to appear as a witness before it and to order them to produce any documents and things that it considers necessary for the performance of its duties and functions.”

The question was put on the amendment of Tony Clement and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

The Chair ruled that the following amendment was consequential to the previous amendment and therefore it was also negatived:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 47, be amended by replacing lines 15 to 20 on page 16 with the following:

“formation under the control of the Centre that would assist the Minister in exercising his or her powers or performing his or her duties or functions under the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act.”

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 14, be amended by replacing line 33 on page 5 to line 29 on page 6 with the following:

“14 The Committee is not entitled to have access to a confidence of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, as defined in subsection 39(2) of the Canada Evidence Act.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Nathaniel Erskine-Smith and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 6; NAYS: 3.

The Chair ruled that the following amendment was consequential to the previous amendment and therefore it was also adopted:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 47, be amended by replacing lines 15 to 20 on page 16 with the following:

“formation under the control of the Centre that would assist the Minister in exercising his or her powers or performing his or her duties or functions under the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act.”

Clause 14, as amended, carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 1.

On Clause 15,

Matthew Dubé moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 15, be amended by deleting line 30 on page 6 to line 7 on page 7.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed the deletion of the clause, as provided on page 768 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Second Edition.

Tony Clement moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 15, be amended by replacing line 30 on page 6 to line 7 on page 7 with the following:

“15 Despite any other Act of Parliament or any privilege under the law of evidence, but subject to section 16, the Committee is entitled to have access to any information under the control of a department that relates to the performance of the Committee's duties and functions.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Tony Clement and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

Sven Spengemann moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 15, be amended by replacing line 35 on page 6 with the following:

“(2) If the Committee requests information that is in respect of an identifiable person or entity, that has been”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Sven Spengemann and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 8; NAYS: 0.

Sven Spengemann moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 15, be amended by adding after line 42 on page 6 the following:

“(2.1) If the requested information is under the control of a department that is a parent Crown corporation, the department must, at the request of the appropriate Minister, provide the information to that Minister.

(2.2) Compliance by a department with subsection (2.1) is deemed to be in the best interests of the department.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Sven Spengemann and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 9; NAYS: 0.

Clause 15, as amended, carried by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 1.

On Clause 16,

Matthew Dubé moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 16, be amended by deleting lines 8 to 35 on page 7.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed the deletion of the clause, as provided on page 768 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Second Edition.

Tony Clement moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 16, be amended by replacing lines 8 to 35 on page 7 with the following:

“16 No information described in section 15, other than a confidence of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada as defined in subsection 39(2) of the Canada Evidence Act, may be withheld from the Committee on any ground.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Tony Clement and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 5.

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith moved, — That Bill C-22, in Clause 16, be amended by replacing lines 13 to 15 on page 7 with the following:

“(a) the information

(i) constitutes special operational information, as defined in subsection 8(1) of the Security of Information Act,

(ii) relates to ongoing defence intelligence activities supporting military operations, including the nature and content of plans in support of those military operations,

(iii) constitutes information described in subsection 11(1) of the Witness Protection Program Act,

(iv) relates to the identity of a person who was, is or is intended to be, has been approached to be, or has offered or agreed to be, a confidential source of information, intelligence or assistance to the Government of Canada, or the government of a province or of any state allied with Canada, or to information from which the person’s identity could be inferred,

(v) relates directly to an ongoing investigation carried out by a law enforcement agency that may lead to a prosecution,

(vi) constitutes information referred to in subsection 36(1) of the Investment Canada Act, or

(vii) has been received or collected by the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada under the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act and has not been disclosed to a department under subsection 55(3), 55.1(1), 65(1), 65.01(1) or 65.02(1) of that Act; and”

Debate arose thereon.

Matthew Dubé moved, — That the amendment be amended by deleting paragraphs (i), (ii), (v), (vi) and (vii).

After debate, the question was put on the subamendment of Matthew Dubé and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 1; NAYS: 8.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Nathaniel Erskine-Smith and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 5; NAYS: 3.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Committee on Tuesday, May 3, 2016, the following amendment, submitted by Elizabeth May for the consideration of the Committee, was deemed moved:

That Bill C-22, in Clause 16, be amended by adding after line 17 on page 7 the following:

“(1.1) Before making any decision under paragraph (1)(b), the appropriate Minister must take into account the fact that the members and former members of the Committee are persons permanently bound to secrecy, as defined in subsection 8(1) of the Security of Information Act.”

The question was put on the amendment of Elizabeth May and it was negatived, by a show of hands: YEAS: 0; NAYS: 8

Clause 16, as amended, was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4

On motion of Tony Clement, it was agreed, — That the Committee do now adjourn.

At 7:50 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.



Jean-Marie David
Clerk of the Committee