I call the meeting to order.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this committee, which is an all-party committee on Canadian heritage, will be studying the issue of systemic racism and religious discrimination. I want to welcome our witnesses here. As everyone knows, we have an amended list. The other group that was supposed to be here for this first hour was not able to come, so we only have one group here for the first hour, which is the Iranian Canadian Congress.
I want to welcome you, Mr. Tabasinejad, and Ms. Ghasemi.
The usual protocol is that your group has 10 minutes in which to present to us. You can choose who takes the 10 minutes or if you want to split it. Then there will be a question-and-answer round. For the committee's own interest, so that you can make sure you're on the list, we will probably go to two full rounds because we have only one group presenting to us. The second round will be a five-minute round, and not three.
We will begin.
Which one of you will be doing the speaking?
Mr. Tabasinejad, I'll give you an eight-minute count when we get to eight minutes so that you can wrap up what you have to do. Thank you very much.
Madam Chair, honourable members of the committee, I would like to thank you all for inviting us here today to discuss how our government can work to combat racism and discrimination and create a more inclusive Canada.
The Iranian Canadian Congress, or ICC, is a grassroots, non-partisan, non-religious community organization that seeks to safeguard and advance the interests of Canadians of Iranian descent, a population estimated at 300,000 nationwide. The ICC is the main advocacy organization for the Iranian-Canadian community, one of the largest and fastest-growing immigrant communities in Canada, and this has been corroborated by the latest census data just released this week.
Though Canada has been rightly recognized for its effectiveness in integrating minority communities, we believe that there's still much room for improvement, and hopefully this study will guide Canadians and our government in moving forward.
Our organization recently completed a survey of more than 600 Iranian Canadians on the issue of racism and discrimination, a survey that will inform much of our testimony here today. The results of this survey, in addition to individual reports we receive on a regular basis, show that Iranian Canadians are subjected to a significant degree of racism and discrimination.
A majority, over 60%, of our respondents in this survey expressed that they have experienced racism and discrimination in Canada. Employment discrimination, social discrimination, and discrimination by airline or airport security have been the three leading fields selected by respondents who have experienced racism or discrimination, with more than a half of respondents reporting employment discrimination specifically.
The respondents identified anti-Iranian sentiment, Islamophobia, and general xenophobia as the three main causes behind the racism and discrimination that they have experienced, with anti-Iranian sentiment leading. Close to 50% of respondents asserted that they have experienced specifically anti-Iranian sentiment.
Finally, a significant majority, 77%, of our respondents saw the policies and rhetoric directed against Iran on the international stage as a significant factor in the discrimination and racism that they feel in their daily lives in Canada.
Obviously these findings are extremely concerning for us and point to a need for action on behalf of government in close coordination with civil society.
A recent report published by Statistics Canada shows that the group known as West Asians and Arabs, a group under which Canadians of Iranian heritage are included, experienced growing discrimination in Canada. Between 2013 and 2015, police reported that crimes motivated by hatred of West Asian or Arab populations increased by 92%. Violent crimes targeting West Asian or Arab populations, which again include people of Iranian descent, increased 52% in 2015, the highest rise among all visible minority groups.
Unfortunately, we have seen numerous examples of how those of Iranian background are specifically targeted for racial attacks. Recently in the United States, two Indian Americans were shot by a white supremacist in Kansas because they were perceived to be Iranians.
In Canada, an Iranian Ph.D. student at Western University was brutally attacked and told to go back to his country, and a couple of months ago an Iranian-Canadian cab driver was verbally harassed by a customer who made explicit reference to his nationality.
These are a few instances of individuals of Iranian heritage being specifically targeted for racial violence in a manner that is unacceptable in a multicultural society. As I mentioned, our survey results show that the discrimination and racism that Iranian Canadians face not only has roots in Islamophobia and xenophobia but also results from a specifically anti-Iranian sentiment that is informed by Iran's treatment on the international stage.
Perhaps the most important instance of systematic discrimination affecting all Iranians today, including Canadians of Iranian heritage, is President Donald Trump's travel ban. With the imposition of these discriminatory travel restrictions, many Canadians of Iranian origin and thousands of Iranian citizens living in Canada who had to travel to the United States for business or education or to visit family were left in uncertain and insecure positions. Even now, as the ban has gone through several iterations and legal battles, their fate at the border is uncertain. Many members of our community have pointed to increased scrutiny by border security since the ban and have expressed feeling insecure at the prospect of travelling to the United States. This discriminatory policy has caused extreme anxiety and concern in our community, and we believe it is our government's duty to protect its citizens from such blatant discrimination by our closest neighbour at the border.
Unfortunately, systemic discrimination not only exists at our borders, but within them as well. Much of this systemic discrimination is a result of Canada's Iran policy and Canada's sanctions regime on Iran, which began in 2012, the same year that the Canadian government broke off relations with Iran and closed embassies in both countries.
Not only have sanctions deprived many honest and hard-working Iranian-Canadian entrepreneurs and business people of their livelihoods, but they have also had disastrous affects on ordinary Iranian Canadians. Financial institutions have been particularly guilty of discrimination against these ordinary members of our community.
Since 2012, as a result of strict sanctions placed on Iran by the Canadian government, banks have refused to deal with those who had or were perceived to have any financial links to Iran, whether personal or business. This resulted in the closure of the bank accounts of Iranian Canadians, including Canadian citizens, for no other reason than because they were Iranian. For example, the bank account of an Iranian engineering student in Quebec was closed with only $700 in the account. When he approached the bank he was only told that his account was closed because he had an Iranian passport.
Even today, after the government eased some of its sanctions on Iran in February 2016, financial institutions are still applying the same discriminatory rules, and we have received several reports from ordinary Iranian Canadians who have been subject to discrimination by banks.
We have also received several reports that Iranian Canadians are being discriminated against by employers explicitly because of their Iranian nationality. Iranian Canadians are denied employment in companies where they need to have access to sensitive technologies, are involved in defence contracts, or whose work requires them to travel to the United States. This is especially the case in engineering professions, where much of our community is employed.
Now my colleague, Soudeh Ghasemi, will go over some of our recommendations.
First, we believe that a systematic review of our Criminal Code legislation in regard to hate crimes and hate speech is long overdue. Numerous sources have reported that a significant part of the problem in prosecuting hate crimes is that the Criminal Code limits what can be done and does not allow speedy and efficient prosecution.
Second, we recommend that a racism and discrimination hotline be set up to allow victims of discrimination access to counsel and allow government to collect information on these incidents.
Third, current government Bill is removing parts of the Criminal Code that provide protection to places of worship, religious ceremonies, and faith communities. At this time, when hate crime against people from specific religious backgrounds is rising, we believe these protections are necessary. We recommend this committee to propose in its study for the government and Parliament to amend this part of Bill C-51.
Fourth, we recommend that the federal government increase the budget of Canadian Heritage programs that support the initiatives of diverse community organizations dedicated to improving interfaith and intercultural understanding, and target these programs at impacted groups.
Because of the sizable population of Iranian Canadians and the significant number of new immigrants arriving from Iran, we also recommend that Statistics Canada add an Iranian category in their visible minority section for accurate hate crime data.
Finally, and most importantly, we believe Canada should, in all foreign policy decisions and statements concerning a country, explicitly take into account the effect that such decisions will have on all Canadian individuals who come from or have ties with that country. The present lack of this awareness in our foreign policy circles has caused great harm to our community.
As shown by both our examples and our survey findings, Iranian Canadians suffer from sanctions and banking discrimination, the lack of an embassy through which they can access consular services, and the constant singling out of Iran in the rhetoric and policy of countries such as Canada. They must recognize that in an increasingly globalized world, Canada's actions and words on the world stage are not limited to international relations but also affect its citizens here at home.
In fact, this is something we already recognize in regard to the treatment of certain countries on the world stage. We cannot single out a country for special negative treatment and expect that such singling out will not have negative repercussions for those who are connected or perceived as connected to that country.
What we have shown in our presentation is that Iranian Canadians face serious discrimination. This situation must be addressed by our government. It is our hope that the recommendations we presented will not only allow our community to live peacefully and as equals in Canada, but help other communities do so as well.
Based on the experience that we've had in the Iranian Canadian Congress for the past few years, the issue with the reporting.... I'm going to start with the banking issue.
Usually we see that people are not comfortable reaching out to officials. That's why they reach out to us first, to consult and get information about that. I'm going to speak based on my own experience.
TD closed my bank accounts and my parents' bank accounts for absolutely no reason, other than we had Iranian names. I was comfortable about speaking out against it. However, I tried to get legal counsel and I noticed that no official legal action could be taken at the time. Even though I took the case to the media, at the end of the day the issue was not resolved. I did not see any governing body overseeing the bank's appropriate.... I'm just telling you this as the story of an individual.
The cases we see in banking nowadays involve a lack of knowledge, as well as fear of reporting. That's why we think that if the government created a hotline for these cases, maybe those hotlines would be able to give more specific information as to how these cases can be elaborated or resolved, or if any action needs to be taken, they can just divert the individuals to appropriate bodies.
With regard to reporting hate-crime cases, I totally agree with you. Technically, based on the reports that were received, if anyone goes to the police, I believe the police do not open a case for that report unless it's an actual threat or a death threat to the individual. If it's not a death threat, it will never be reported and drafted somewhere.
If the government could prepare a hotline for individuals so that they feel they can reach out to those hotlines to report their issues and get consultation, I believe this step could be an opening for these situations as such.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to express my deep concern and regret for the treatment of the members in your community who have experienced discrimination or hatred. I think there's a lot of agreement at this table from all sides that our pursuit is to have every Canadian live a life that's free of any kind of discrimination, hatred, persecution, or unequal treatment, for that matter, vis-à-vis some of the things you were talking about with regard to the CVs or resumés of people with Iranian or Persian names.
By the way, I have a lot of Iranian friends, and they prefer to be called Persians. I'm not certain how that goes, if that's a broad spectrum of the community or not, but anyway, they've kind of trained me like that.
The one problematic thing for us is the word Islamophobia, and it's not just problematic for us. About 30% of the witnesses have a problem with it. For me, the most important ones are the ones who come from the Muslim community themselves and who have an issue with it. There were quotes about how the definition has been hijacked and is irrecoverable.
As far as any kind of hatred or racism goes, we want to fight that. We want to be clear on it so that no one can co-opt a word and have it mean something else.
I want to go back to one of the things you were mentioning about Iran. I've been on the Subcommittee on International Human Rights for the better part of a dozen years now, and it's been the Iranian community in Canada that have come to us and asked us to defend their family members and friends in Iran. We've always been careful, as Mr. Reid said, to point out that the regime, the Revolutionary Guard, the Basij, the mullahs that run it, are the ones we're targeting. These are people, this regime, who kill their own people. Their reputation is very bad. It's at the top echelon of all human rights offenders, but we call out the others pretty equally on the subcommittee.
We do have an Iran Accountability Week, and I certainly hope that no one ever misconstrues that as anything against a Canadian citizen of Iranian descent, Persian descent, at all. What we'd like to do is see every person in Iran free, and hopefully we'll see a democratic nation one day there in Iran. I want to be clear on that.
The other problem that has arisen from—
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for your answers.
As this discussion was going on, it reminded me that this year is the 75th anniversary of the Japanese internment. In British Columbia, we had a number of different events. As you're talking about this, there is this ripple effect of something else that's going on outside of Canada, and somehow there's blowback for the people in that community from the ethnic community.
If this is happening, it appears to me that we haven't learned from our history very well at all, so your point about education is a very good one, especially in the context we're talking about, of children learning about what discrimination looks like. Thank you for that.
I want to get back to this financial agency issue. FICOM, the Financial Institutions Commission, is the regulatory body for banking agencies. In your experience, have people gone to FICOM to make a complaint?
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the standing committee for your invitation.
The Canadian Labour Congress is the largest labour organization in Canada, with 56 affiliated Canadian and international unions, provincial federations of labour, and regional labour councils. The CLC represents 3.3 million workers across all private and public sectors. Indigenous workers, racialized workers, and workers of all faiths are a growing and important part of our labour movement, and any attack on them is an attack on us all. As trade unionists, the CLC and its affiliates continue to stand strong in solidarity to eradicate the forces of hate, racism, and discrimination that divide us.
Systemic racism and discrimination in Canada is well and alive. In 2015, 48% of police reports showed that hate crimes were motivated by hatred of a race or ethnicity, and 35% were motivated by hatred of a religion. Between 2014 and 2015, police reported hate crimes rose by 5%, mainly attributable to the increase of racial and religious hate-related crimes.
The unprecedented rise of Islamophobia and religious discrimination in Canada is very disturbing. There have been attacks on Muslim women wearing hijabs, vandalism of mosques, threats and verbal abuse, numerous anti-Islam and anti-Muslim protests, and anti-racist, anti-fascist counter-protests across Canada.
Most horrifying of all was the terrorist gun attack on the Centre culturel islamique de Québec during evening prayers on January 29, 2017, that left six Muslim worshippers dead and 19 injured. The labour movement condemns in the strongest possible terms any acts of violence against Muslims.
Religious hate crimes against women rose between 2014 and 2015 due to the increase in victimization of Muslim as well as Jewish women.
The very recent Bill 62 in Quebec will likely worsen matters. Bill 62 ostensibly ensures religious neutrality, but de facto it's an attack on the rights of Muslim women who cover their face from receiving or delivering public services. The particularly gendered exclusionary impact of this bill is discriminatory. It is also wrong to ask workers providing public services to participate in the violation of rights that are promised to every Canadian under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as well as provincial human rights codes. We must stand up against Islamophobia and categorically reject policies that discriminate against people of the Muslim faith.
Racism and discrimination have no place in our unions, in our communities, or in our country. Today indigenous people, as well as black and racialized Canadians, are still more likely to be carded, under surveillance, and incarcerated. There have been anti-immigrant flyers and protests targeting Chinese and Sikh communities, police violence and shootings of black Canadians and indigenous people, and racist epithets hurled at racialized Canadians in public.
Muslim and racialized Canadians, as well as indigenous people, continue to experience employment discrimination, wage disparities, and lack of opportunities, in particular if they are women, live with a disability, and/or are LGBTQ. They continue to be the most impoverished in Canada.
Lastly, even Canada's low-wage streams of the temporary foreign worker program systemically discriminate against racialized workers from poorer countries in the south by weakening their rights through tied employer work permits and offering little hope of Canadian citizenship. These developments project urgency and compel us to act with even more fortitude.
At the CLC convention in May, 3,500 union delegates affirmed our commitment to pursue public policies that respect the dignity and rights of all working people regardless of race, religion, immigration status, or country of origin. With our affiliates, we are committed to educating the rank and file to inoculate them against right-wing populism, and we are ready to assist the government to better make diversity our country's strength.
We also have seven recommendations for the standing committee.
First, the government has to immediately implement the 94 recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. This also includes government actions to support the ongoing work of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls and develop a strategy and prioritize the implementation of the inquiry's findings and recommendations.
Second, reinstate Canada's action plan against racism to activate a whole-of-government approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination. This would help Canada comply with the requirements of the UN World Conference Against Racism.
Third, the government must repeal the effects of legislation that characterizes or insinuates racist stereotypes and propagates fear in Canada, specifically the Conservatives' Bill , the Anti-terrorism Act, and Bill S-7, the Zero Tolerance for Barbaric Cultural Practices Act. These should be repealed.
Fourth, the government must strengthen the federal Employment Equity Act and program, reinstate the $200,000 government contract threshold for the federal contractors program, and restore mandatory compliance requirements equivalent to the Employment Equity Act itself.
Fifth, immediately introduce proactive pay equity legislation that will close the wage disparity, in particular for racialized Muslim, black, and indigenous women.
Sixth, the government should increase funding to support anti-racism and anti-oppression programs.
Seventh, the government should collect disaggregated data by ethno-racial and religious background across all departments, crown corporations, and other relevant institutions for better analysis and evidence-based policy-making, to eradicate systemic racism and discrimination.
I thank you for the opportunity to present, and I look forward to your questions.
Whichever language you would like to ask them in is fine with me.
First of all, I would like to begin by recognizing that we're on unceded Algonquin territory and thanking you for the opportunity.
Children may not always listen to their elders, the saying goes, but they never fail to imitate them, so the question is, what kind of example are we setting, domestically and internationally, for the children of this generation in terms of the way that we treat one another and the way that we address and acknowledge discrimination, both at an individual level and at a structural level?
Here it requires a courageous conversation, because sometimes it's we, the good guys, who are doing the harm. In this case, it is the Canadian government that continues to racially discriminate against first nations children. That has to be acknowledged, not only because it relates to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's top call to action about equity and child welfare to make sure that we raise this generation of children safely in their families, but also because it's simply the right thing to do.
What have we learned from history? That is the other piece. We apologized for residential schools, and then we apologized for the sixties scoop, and now Canada is out of compliance with four legal orders of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal to end racial discrimination with children. What have we actually learned from residential schools? What have we learned from the past? How do we prepare this generation of children to learn from those past actions of racial discrimination, affecting indigenous peoples and others, in ways that prepare them to address injustices, both in a contemporary format and going forward into the future?
Today we saw in census figures that we're not holding up our promise to the residential school survivors in terms of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's call to action number one. Over 40% of all children under four in child welfare care today are first nations children. Keep in mind that when children were removed for residential schools, they were removed at the tender age of five, and we saw the cataclysm that created. These are preschoolers.
Chairperson, as a physician, you know that the first 2,000 days of life lay down the fundamental building blocks of life. It's also a time, important to this committee's mandate, when children learn languages, particularly the indigenous languages, which are so at risk in this country in many cases. That's why Canada's compliance with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal orders is so essential. It's essential because it's about giving a generation of first nations children a chance to grow up equitably and fairly in this country, but it's also about preparing a generation of non-indigenous children so that they never have to say they're sorry again.
A contemporary tragedy is unfolding in front of us all. It's not behind us. It's not in the residential schools or the sixties scoop. There are more first nations kids in care today than at any time in history. We have an opportunity to do something about it by providing equitable and culturally based child welfare services to first nations communities as the tribunal required and by ensuring the full and proper implementation of Jordan's principle so that first nations children can access all the public services they need, when they need them, and without additional red tape related to their first nations status. The third thing that can be done is something I call the Spirit Bear plan, which is for members of Parliament to ask the parliamentary budget officer to cost out the aggregate value of all the inequitable services that first nations children face.
Keep in mind that first nations children are not just receiving inequitable child welfare; they're also receiving inequitable education and inequitable early childhood. Some of them can't get clean water, and there are inadequate sanitation systems. As a country, we need to see what that big figure looks like, and then launch something akin to the Marshall Plan after the Second World War to eradicate those inequalities in ways that take full consideration of children's development and children's best interest. If we can rebuild Europe in 10 years, we can certainly correct a fundamental racial injustice that's occurring in this country in far less time than that.
For those who say it's too expensive or too complicated, I ask you this: if we are so broke as a nation that the only way we can fund things like arenas or subway systems is through racial discrimination against children, then what are the children losing to? What does this country really stand for?
I am one taxpayer who would be very happy to put off some of these projects that the government spends on, as much as I would like them, if it means a child will have a proper opportunity to grow up healthy and proud in this country for the first time in their culture's history. Start off your 151 with a positive legacy.
I am going to move on to something else about learning from history, which is less well known in our work. We are honoured to collaborate with Beechwood Cemetery, which is Canada's national cemetery; KAIROS; Project of Heart; Truth and Reconciliation commissioners Marie Wilson and Murray Sinclair; historian John Milloy; and Ellen Gabriel.
We recognize that in Canada's national cemetery are some of the leading characters in the residential school story.
Peter Henderson Bryce was the doctor who blew the whistle in 1907 on the preventable causes of death of children. He found that kids were dying at a rate of 25% a year from preventable causes, and he knew that with an additional $10,000 to $15,000 from the Canadian government, many of those children's lives could be saved. He was a chief medical officer in Canada. His findings were published in papers. He is buried there.
Duncan Campbell Scott, the leading bureaucrat on the residential schools file for 52 years, the man who refused to implement Dr. Bryce's reforms, is also buried there.
Nicholas Flood Davin was the person who wrote the Davin report, which was requisitioned by John A. Macdonald and led to the founding of industrial schools here in Canada.
We've created historical plaques that accurately tell the stories of these people. Duncan Campbell Scott, for example, is recognized as being a confederate poet, but he is also recognized as being a key actor in what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission found to be cultural genocide. His historical plaque includes both passages: confederate poet and cultural genocide. For Dr. Bryce, the full story of his career is told as well, and it's the same with Nicholas Flood Davin.
I think this is something very essential: teaching, at a time when people are talking about taking down monuments. I actually don't agree with taking down monuments. I agree with telling the full and proper truth, and this is something that I'd like to see the National Capital Commission embrace with a lot more vigour. For example, just a couple of years ago there was an exhibit on Laurier and Macdonald, and it talked about the building of the railway and the first francophone prime minister. It said nothing about their respective roles in residential schools. John A. Macdonald was an enthusiastic endorser of them, and hired Duncan Campbell Scott; Laurier was prime minister at the time when Dr. Bryce's reforms hit the newspaper, and he did not press for those reforms to be implemented and those kids' lives to be saved.
If we are to learn from the past, we have to accurately tell the history of the country. We have to train a generation of children to learn from our collective history, and not just the good and shiny parts. We have collaborated with Project of Heart. We've taken all the historical research that we've done for those plaques and converted it into school curriculum so that children are learning about these historical figures all over Canada as part of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission work.
In addition to that, to promote the Truth and Reconciliation calls to action, we have developed free activities that all children and families can do, which are peaceful, respectful, and evidence-based, and which make a meaningful difference.
We not only want to address the contemporary injustices, but we urge you to recommend, in this committee, that Canada immediately comply fully with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's orders.
We recommend that you work with the National Capital Commission, and we hope that they would be inspired by our reconciling history project to create historical plaques here in Ottawa that recognize the true telling of history.
We ask you to endorse the Spirit Bear plan to end the inequalities across all areas, and of course to fund and support indigenous languages with the same vigour and enthusiasm with which you do French and English in this country. To me, it is a travesty that indigenous languages are not recognized as the official languages of this country, when the name of the country itself comes from a first nations word. If we truly want to live up to being a village, which is what “kanata” actually means, we need to respect and honour the peoples who were the original founders of this nation.
With that, I thank you.
That would be fantastic. Thank you.
I'd like to touch on this in terms of child welfare. A very good friend of mine recently told me she was presented with a scenario of a child coming to school looking dishevelled and dirty, and people thought there were some issues. Immediately, child welfare was brought in. The immediate reaction was to say, “We have to apprehend.” My friend then said, “Let's first take a look at the situation and see what's going on.” They investigated the situation and, lo and behold, what did they find? They found that in the home of the child the plumbing system was broken and they did not have the resources to fix it. That's why the child's hair looked dirty, and so on. Then my friend said to her staff, “How can we address this? Can we not provide the resources, as the ministry, to this family to fix the plumbing?” People said, “Oh, no, no, we can't do that.” Then she said, “Yes, we can”, and so she did. They provided $1,000 to fix the plumbing, and all is well. This family got on and no child was apprehended.
I put this out as an example of what is wrong with our child welfare system in addressing the systemic issues, which are intergenerational, but also with our societal issues of where we spend our resources, how we spend our resources to fix the problem, and instead of breaking up a family, how we can actually not do that for the benefit of the family. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that if you follow that trajectory, there will be savings to the taxpayers.
I offer that, and I wonder whether that would be a wise move in terms of—
Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I want to thank both groups for their wonderful presentations.
Dr. Blackstock, thank you so much for your advocacy around the systemic inequities in the services offered to first nations youth, families, and children. I know that your advocacy has led to a lot of positive change, particularly within our own government. We now have a Minister of Indigenous Services who is very interested in this issue. I know she's met with you many times. She's very passionate about making sure that Jordan's principle is implemented.
We've added quite a bit of money, and I know that 99% of the requests have been approved. Some 20,000 more children are getting services they didn't have before, but we have a heck of a lot more we have to do.
I very much appreciate your recommendations today.
We're grappling with developing a whole-of-government approach to reducing systemic and religious discrimination. We've had a number of groups come before us. We've had the black community, the Chinese, and the Iranians. We've had many. We've had a number of religious groups. We had the Muslim and the Jewish communities come before us.
As we're putting forward some recommendations, I want to see where we put indigenous people. Is it a separate plan? How does it fit within a national action plan?