CC38 Committee Meeting

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MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 21

Wednesday, June 15, 2005

The Legislative Committee on Bill C-38 met in a televised session at 3:59 p.m. this day, in Room 237-C Centre Block, the Chair, Marcel Proulx, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Rob Moore, Anita Neville, Marcel Proulx, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay and Vic Toews.

Other Members present: Derek Lee, Paul Szabo and Mark Warawa.

In attendance: Library of Parliament: Mary Hurley, Analyst . House of Commons: Joann Garbig, Legislative Clerk ; Susan Baldwin, Legislative Clerk . Library of Parliament: Kristen Douglas, Analyst.

Witnesses: Department of Justice: Lisa Hitch, Senior Counsel, Policy Sector, Family, Children and Youth Section; Raymond MacCallum, Counsel, Human Rights Law Section.

Pursuant to the Order of Reference of Wednesday, May 4, 2005, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-38, An Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes.

The Committee commenced its clause-by-clause study of the Bill.

At 4:02 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 4:28 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Lisa Hitch and Raymond MacCallum answered questions.

Clause 2 carried on division.

Clause 3 carried on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Clause 3.1,

By unanimous consent, Paul Harold Macklin moved, — That Bill C-38, in Clause 3.1, be amended by adding after line 42 on page 2 the following:

“For greater certainty, no person or organization shall be deprived of any benefit, or be subject to any obligation or sanction, under any law of the Parliament of Canada solely by reason of their exercise, in respect of marriage between persons of the same sex, of the freedom of conscience and religion guaranteed under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms or the expression of their beliefs in respect of the union of a man and woman, to the exclusion of all others, based on that guaranteed freedom.”

Françoise Boivin moved, — That the amendment be amended by replacing the words “between persons of the same sex ” with the words “ as the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others”

After debate, the question was put on the subamendment of Françoise Boivin and it was agreed to on division.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Paul Harold Macklin and it was agreed to on division.

Clause 4 carried on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Clause 4.1,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 3 on page 3 the following new clause:

“4.1 No person shall be deprived of any benefit or be subject to any incapacity or obligation under any law of Canada by reason of their practices, beliefs, or advocacy in respect of the definition of marriage.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 6; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 6.

The Chair's decision was sustained as the question was not negatived.

On Clause 4.1,

By unanimous consent, Brian Jean moved, — That Bill C-38, in Clause 4.1, be amended by adding after line 3 on page 3 the following:

“4.1 No person shall be deprived of any benefit or be subject to any incapacity, obligation or penalty under any law of Canada solely by reason of their religious practices or beliefs in respect of the definition of marriage under this Act”

That the motion be amended by:

(a) replacing the words “ No person” with the words “For greater certainty, no person or organization ”

(b)by deleting “incapacity,”;

(c)by inserting the words “the Parliament of” before the word “Canada”;

(d)by deleting the word “solely”;

(e)by replacing the words “in respect of the definition of marriage under this Act” with the words “that marriage is the union between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others”.

The question was put on the subamendment of Gord Brown and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4; NAYS : Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8.

The question was put on the amendment of Brian Jean and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4; NAYS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8.

On Clause 4.2,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 3 on page 3 the following new clause:

“4.2 The Minister of Justice shall establish and administer a fund to which shall be credited the sum of ten million dollars annually, which shall be paid to into the fund by the Minister of Finance out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund. The purpose of the fund shall be to assist religious groups or organizations and other institutions in the payment of legal and other expenses arising out of their involvement in public debate in respect of the definition of marriage.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it infringed on the financial initiative of the Crown, as provided on page 655 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was overturned on the following recorded division: YEAS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4; NAYS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8.

On Clause 4.3,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 3 on page 3 the following new clause:

“4.3 This Act does not apply in any province or territory that has not enacted legislation to protect the freedom of individuals and religious and other groups in respect of their beliefs, practices and advocacy relating to the definition of marriage, including legislation that

(a) recognizes the right of schools that are affiliated with a particular church or religious group to give instruction on matters relating to the family and sexual behaviour in accordance with their precepts and beliefs; and

(b) recognizes the right of a student to withdraw from a program of study in a public school that relates to the family or sexual behaviour if the material being taught in that program does not accord with the precepts or beliefs of the student or of his or her parents.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

On Clause 4.4,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 3 on page 3 the following new clause:

“4.4 (1) Within ten sitting days after this Act has been in force for three years, the Minister of Justice shall table a report in the House of Commons reviewing its operation and, in particular, the effect on Canadian society of the operation of section 2. The report shall contain statistical information regarding rates of marriage and any other family-related information that is relevant.

(2) On the day the report is tabled, it shall be be referred by the House of Commons to the committee of the House that deals with matters relating to justice. The committee shall study the report and may conduct inquiries or public hearings with respect to the information contained in the report. The committee shall report its findings and any recommendations it considers advisable to the House within thirty sitting days after the report was tabled by the Minister of Justice under subsection (1).”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Vic Toews and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4; NAYS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8.

Clause 5 carried on division.

Clause 6 carried on division.

On Clause 6.1,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 10 on page 4 the following new clause:

“CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACT

6.1 Subsection 15(1) of the Canadian Human Rights Act is amended by striking out the word “or” at the end of paragraph (f), by adding the word “or” at the end of paragraph (g) and by adding the following after paragraph (g):

(h) a person by any means expresses or communicates their views on the definition of marriage.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

Clause 7 carried on division.

On Clause 7.1,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 12 on page 4 the following new clause:

“CRIMINAL CODE

7.1 Subsection 319(3) of the Criminal Code is amended by adding the following after paragraph (b):

(b.1) if the person was expressing their views on the definition of marriage;”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

Clause 8 carried on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

Clause 9 carried on division.

Clause 10 carried on division.

Clause 11 carried on division.

On Clause 11.1,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 32 on page 5 the following new clause:

“11.1 Section 149.1 of the Act is amended by adding the following after subsection (2):

(2.1) For greater certainty, the Minister may not revoke the registration of a charitable organization under subsection (2) solely because the charitable organization has engaged in public debate in respect of the definition of marriage or has advocated in favour of a particular definition of marriage.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Clause 11.1,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 32 on page 5 the following new clause:

“11.1 Section 149.1 of the Act is amended by adding the following after subsection (3):

(3.1) For greater certainty, the Minister may not revoke the registration of a public foundation under subsection (3) solely because the public foundation has engaged in public debate in respect of the definition of marriage or has advocated in favour of a particular definition of marriage.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

Clauses 12 to 15 inclusive carried on division severally.

On Clause 16,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 30 on page 6 the following new clause:

“RADIO REGULATIONS, 1986

16. Section 3.1 of the Radio Regulations, 1986 is replaced by the following:

3.1 For the purposes of paragraph 3(b),

(a) sexual orientation does not include the orientation towards any sexual act or activity that would constitute an offence under the Criminal Code; and

(b) the expression by any person of their views on the definition of marriage is not abusive comment.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 7; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Clause 17,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38 be amended by adding after line 30 on page 6 the following new clause:

“TELEVISION BROADCASTING REGULATIONS, 1987

17. Subsection 5(1.1) of the Television Broadcasting Regulations, 1987 is replaced by the following:

(1.1) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(b),

(a) sexual orientation does not include the orientation towards any sexual act or activity that would constitute an offence under the Criminal Code; and

(b) the expression by any person of their views on the definition of marriage is not abusive comment.”

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it was beyond the scope of the Bill, as provided on page 654 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Preamble,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38, in the Preamble, be amended by deleting lines 8 to 13 on page 1.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed to add a preamble to the Bill, as provided on page 657 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Preamble,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38, in the Preamble, be amended by deleting lines 14 to 17 on page 1.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed to add a preamble to the Bill, as provided on page 657 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

On Preamble,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38, in the Preamble, be amended by deleting lines 18 to 25 on page 1.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed to add a preamble to the Bill, as provided on page 657 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

On Preamble,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38, in the Preamble, be amended by deleting lines 4 to 11 on page 2.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed to add a preamble to the Bill, as provided on page 657 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Preamble,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38, in the Preamble, be amended by deleting lines 12 to 18 on page 2.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed to add a preamble to the Bill, as provided on page 657 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Preamble,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38, in the Preamble, be amended by deleting lines 25 to 30 on page 2.

The Chair ruled the proposed amendment inadmissible because it proposed to add a preamble to the Bill, as provided on page 657 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Whereupon, Vic Toews appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division: YEAS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 8; NAYS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 4.

On Preamble,

Vic Toews moved, — That Bill C-38, in the Preamble, be amended by adding after line 11 on page 2 the following:

“WHEREAS it is not against the public interest to hold and publicly express diverse views on marriage;”

Réal Ménard moved, — That the amendment be amended by replacing the words “ public interest” with the words “ freedom of expression”

The question was put on the subamendment of Réal Ménard and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Réal Ménard, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 5; NAYS : Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Richard Marceau, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 7.

The question was put on the amendment and the result of the vote was announced: YEAS: Gord Brown, Brian Jean, Richard Marceau, Réal Ménard, Rob Moore, Vic Toews — 6; NAYS: Françoise Boivin, Don Boudria, Paul Harold Macklin, Anita Neville, Michael John Savage, Bill Siksay — 6.

Whereupon, the Chair voted in the affirmative.

Accordingly, the amendment was agreed to.

The Title carried on division.

The Short Title carried on division.

The Preamble carried.

The Bill, as amended, carried on division.

ORDERED, — That Bill C-38, as amended, be reprinted for the use of the House at report stage.

At 11:09 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Jean-François Pagé
Clerk of the Committee

2005/06/17 2:53 p.m.