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37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, March 11, 2004

0905

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, Lib.))

Ms. Barbara Uteck (Secretary to the Governor General, Office of the Governor General)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

0910

LGen George Macdonald (Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Assistant Commissioner Dwight McCallum (Protective Policing Directorate, Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

0915

A/Commr Dwight McCallum

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Insp. Frank deLéséleuc (Officer in Charge, Directorate Services, Protective Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

0920

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Norman Moyer (Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Affairs and Communications, Department of Canadian Heritage)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Bruce Lorimer (Executive Director, Real Property Major Crown Projects, Department of Public Works and Government Services)

0925

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Michelle Comeau (Vice-President, Environment, Capital Lands and Parks Branch, National Capital Commission)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Michelle Comeau

0930

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Paul Dubois (Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade)

0940

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Paul Dubois

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

0945

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Leon Benoit (Lakeland, CPC)

Mr. Paul Dubois

Mr. Leon Benoit

Mr. Paul Dubois

Mr. Leon Benoit

Mr. Paul Dubois

Mr. Leon Benoit

Mr. Paul Dubois

0950

Mr. Leon Benoit

Mr. Paul Dubois

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Roger Gaudet (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Mr. Roger Gaudet

0955

Mr. Norman Moyer

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Norman Moyer

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Norman Moyer

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Bruce Lorimer

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Bruce Lorimer

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Bruce Lorimer

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Norman Moyer

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Hon. Don Boudria (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.)

1000

Mr. Bruce Lorimer

Hon. Don Boudria

Mr. Bruce Lorimer

Hon. Don Boudria

A/Commr Dwight McCallum

Hon. Don Boudria

A/Commr Dwight McCallum

Hon. Don Boudria

A/Commr Dwight McCallum

Hon. Don Boudria

A/Commr Dwight McCallum

Hon. Don Boudria

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Blackstrap, CPC)

1005

Mr. Paul Dubois

Mrs. Lynne Yelich

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mrs. Lynne Yelich

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Paul Dubois

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

1010

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

1015

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Barbara Uteck

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

1020

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Ms. Barbara Uteck

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Mr. Norman Moyer

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Norman Moyer

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Norman Moyer

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

1025

Mr. Norman Moyer

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Mr. Norman Moyer

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

1030

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Paul Dubois

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Leon Benoit

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Mr. Leon Benoit

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Mr. Leon Benoit

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Mr. Leon Benoit

1035

Mr. Paul Dubois

Mr. Leon Benoit

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

1040

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Ms. Barbara Uteck

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Paul Dubois

1045

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Barbara Uteck

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Hon. Don Boudria

1050

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Hon. Don Boudria

Ms. Barbara Uteck

Hon. Don Boudria

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

1055

Ms. Barbara Uteck

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Ms. Barbara Uteck

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

Mr. Roger Gaudet

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt)

CANADA

Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates

NUMBER 004

3rd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, March 11, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0905)

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, Lib.)): I would ask those with cameras to leave the room immediately. We are already late.

I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for being here. Welcome to this fourth meeting of the third session of the 37^th Parliament. As you can see, a lot of people are appearing today. I would therefore ask everyone to limit their presentations to five minutes. First of all, I'm going to give Ms. Uteck two minutes; she asked to speak first to make a statement, and you will be able to make your presentations later. As for the order in which the witnesses will speak, we are going to follow the agenda, and that will be easier for everyone.

Ms. Uteck, you have two minutes.

Ms. Barbara Uteck (Secretary to the Governor General, Office of the Governor General): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good morning.

Following consultations with other departments, I am pleased to table a document this morning that details the levels of funding and service support provided by our partner departments in the 2003-2004 fiscal year, as you requested.

[English]

The figures I have assembled are based on information provided by other government departments for the year 2003-04. I wish to note that figures can vary from year to year. For example, as there were no state visits in 2002-03, that is to say, state visits out, spending by the foreign affairs department in support of the Governor General was significantly less in 2002 than in 2003.

[Translation]

Similarly, spending by the National Capital Commission can vary widely from year to year, depending on the volume and magnitude of capital projects planned.

[English]

I'd also like to point out that the sums expended by other government departments in support of the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General are directly managed through departments' budgets, accounting systems, and control as per Treasury Board guidelines.

I would also like to remind the chair and members of the committee that accountability and decision-making with respect to other government department spending rests with the individual departments mandated to support the Governor General.

Merci.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Ms. Uteck.

We are going to hear all of the witnesses. I would ask members to ask questions only after we have heard all of the witnesses. You will decide at that point who your questions are for.

We are going to start with Lieutenant-General George Macdonald. Mr. Macdonald.

¿ (0910)

[English]

LGen George Macdonald (Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence): Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I am pleased to discuss the support provided by the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces to the Office of the Governor General.

The Canadian Forces have a long-standing and special relationship with the Governor General. As our commander-in-chief, the Governor General has an important symbolic and ceremonial relationship with the Canadian Forces. The Governor General has a particularly close relationship with militia regiments who provide vice-regal guards. She also has a relationship with the Royal 22nd Regiment, which provides support to the residence at the Citadel in Quebec City.

[Translation]

The Governor General plays a very active and visible role in the lives of Canadian Forces members by presenting deserving personnel with orders, decorations and medals, such as the Order of Military Merit, the Distinguished Service Decorations, decorations for bravery and service medals.

[English]

Her Excellency has inspected troops on ceremonial occasions, visited Canadian Forces in conflict zones such as Afghanistan, and attended memorial services and funerals for military members on behalf of all Canadians.

As Canada's head of state and the commander-in-chief of the Canadian Forces, the office is supported in several ways.

First, the CF provides transportation services and other logistical support for the Governor General's travel by air, both within Canada and during state visits abroad.

Secondly, several Canadian Forces personnel are assigned to the Office of the Governor General. This includes at least three aides-de-camp, or junior officers at the captain or navy lieutenant level from all three services. Another position, the director of program implementation and security, is currently held by a naval captain, or colonel equivalent, and there is at least one photographer at the sergeant level. Other personnel, such as doctors and logisticians, are occasionally assigned to provide special services from time to time on a short-term basis, such as during state visits abroad.

[Translation]

Finally, the Canadian Forces perform ceremonial functions, such as guards of honour and gun salutes at major State occasions such as the opening of Parliament and the arrival of visiting heads of State.

[English]

Requests for support to the Governor General are handled in the same manner as those for the Queen or for the Prime Minister, that is, VVIP priority one. Since we usually receive requests for support sufficiently well in advance we are able to very deliberately coordinate these needs with our other activities. The objective is always to maximize the effective use of our given resources.

[Translation]

In the current fiscal year 2003-2004, the Canadian Forces provided support to the Office of the Governor General in the amount of $2.4 million. This support has been identified in three broad categories.

[English]

The first category covers official duties as commander-in-chief of the Canadian Forces. This addresses the expenses of the Canadian Forces personnel who are required every year to travel to and remain in Ottawa for a period of time in order for them to receive various orders, decorations, medals, and unit commendations from Her Excellency at Rideau Hall.

The second category covers the ceremonial functions performed for state functions such as guards of honour and 21-gun salutes at the opening of Parliament.

The last category covers all ongoing activities, both domestic and abroad, and we've provided you with some costs that relate to this. The support comes in the form of the aide-de-camp required, the personnel assigned for official functions at Rideau Hall and the summer residence, and those occasionally assigned for state visits. It also includes aircraft costs of the Airbus and Challenger aircraft and meals and accommodations for all crew required for visits.

[Translation]

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my opening statement; I would be pleased to take any questions that you and the committee members may have.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you very much, Mr. Macdonald.

We are now going to hear from Mr. McCallum and Mr. Frank de Léséleuc from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You have the floor.

[English]

Assistant Commissioner Dwight McCallum (Protective Policing Directorate, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Mr. Chairman and honourable members, it's a pleasure for me to be here this morning.

I've also brought with me Inspector Frank de Léséleuc, who is our officer in charge of our protective policing directorate financial services.

As the assistant commissioner of protective policing for the RCMP, I am ultimately responsible for the delivery of security for Canadian dignitaries such as the Governor General. I'll be pleased to share with you information on the mandate of the RCMP regarding the provision of security to the Governor General. As Canada's national police force, the RCMP is responsible at all times for the personal protection of the Governor General, her family, and her residences, including Rideau Hall. This responsibility was conferred to the RCMP by the government in 1970 and 1975 and under paragraph 17(d) of the RCMP regulations.

[Translation]

The security package to the Governor General and family is commensurate with the high profile occupied by Her Excellency the Governor General, Head of State and representative of the Queen in Canada. When acting in an official capacity, the spouse of the Governor General also receives protection, as well as for certain private functions when the threat assessment warrants increased protection.

¿ (0915)

[English]

A/Commr Dwight McCallum: When travelling outside the country, the Governor General is accompanied by the RCMP. Advanced visits are conducted by the RCMP to ensure that communication is maintained with local law enforcement units for complete protection that adheres to Canadian standards. Protection beyond the basic security package is provided only in the event that threat and risk assessments dictate a higher level of protection.

The RCMP has done very well at managing the costs associated with the provision of security for the Governor General. Rigorous stewardship of our resources has resulted in the security costs remaining reasonably consistent over the past years, increasing only minimally due to typical inflationary increases in salaries and expenses.

The RCMP incurs annually an average of approximately $3.5 million for the protection of the Governor General. The bulk of the cost is made up of the salaries of RCMP members and corps commissionaires to provide personal security to their Excellencies and, second, property security at Rideau Hall.

[Translation]

Acting as an intelligence-led program, we have effected changes to our policies and practices that have enabled us to become more efficient in the delivery of our services. Generally, the frequency and length of visits have an effect on the cost of delivery of our program. Rideau Hall plans in advance as much as possible, which, for us, translates into cost savings through a more efficient allocation of our resources. Whenever possible we are informed in advance of travel plans whereby we can schedule our members appropriately.

[English]

However well we have managed to discover ways to introduce efficiencies into the delivery of our protective services, there will always be some factors that are beyond our control. The fluctuation in the costs on a yearly basis is a reflection of unknown factors such as changes in threat assessments.

Mr. Chairman, we'd be pleased to take any questions you and the committee may have. However, revealing specific details on our services may jeopardize security, and as such they cannot be divulged.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Mr. McCallum. Does Mr. de Léséleuc have anything to add?

Insp. Frank deLéséleuc (Officer in Charge, Directorate Services, Protective Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Not for the time being.

¿ (0920)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you. Then I turn the floor over to Mr. Norman Moyer from the Department of Canadian Heritage.

Mr. Norman Moyer (Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Affairs and Communications, Department of Canadian Heritage): Thank you. I haven't prepared a text for advance distribution. I'm going to speak very briefly about the support Canadian Heritage provides Rideau Hall. There are three broad categories of support.

Each year, we provide our support and services, particularly with respect to State ceremonies, royal visits and lieutenant-governors, which often entail costs related to the functions of the Governor General. In 2003-2004, we provided our support to the functions of the Governor General in connection with

[English]

what we call the Caring Canadian Awards, which are given by the Governor General. At times there are so many of these awards that lieutenant-governors are asked to distribute them. When lieutenant-governors do it, our department helps to defray the costs of that.

When there are special visitors from abroad, official gifts are provided for those visitors from a gift bank, which is run by the Department of Canadian Heritage. That is a service that's provided to the Governor General but also to other ministers of the Crown.

[Translation]

The second category of assistance that we provide has to do with special celebrations. For Her Majesty's 50^th anniversary, her jubilee, we provided Rideau Hall special assistance with the medals program. The amounts in question appear in the transfers of funds to Rideau Hall.

Some of our functions and expenses are in support of the Governor General, but they remain in our budget.

The installation of a new Governor General comes out of the budget of Canadian Heritage. Together with the government and the person named Governor General, we plan that person's accession to office.

[English]

During that period we also provide special office space for an incoming governor general during the period of time when they are being briefed and helped to prepare for the tasks they are about to take on. Those expenses related to the installation include all of the official ceremony and at times receptions after that event.

[Translation]

Last, Canadian Heritage is also responsible for the burial of former governors general. State funerals are among our functions. Therefore, whenever we have to perform this function, there are negotiations with the family to determine what the State funeral will include. Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Mr. Moyer.

We will now hear Mr. Bruce Lorimer from the Department of Public Works.

Mr. Bruce Lorimer (Executive Director, Real Property Major Crown Projects, Department of Public Works and Government Services): Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee this morning as part of your review of the expenses of the Office of the Governor General. My name is Bruce Lorimer and I am the Acting Executive Director for Major Crown Projects.

With respect to the issue before the committee—that being the expenses incurred by Public Works and Government Services Canada on behalf of the Office of the Governor General—the primary costs for which we are responsible are those associated with La Citadelle, the Governor General's residence in Quebec City, and De La Salle Academy in Ottawa, which houses the Chancellery.

[English]

The Governor General's residence at La Citadelle dates back to the 1830s and so is a recognized heritage site. A wing was added in 1926 and was destroyed by fire in 1974. It was replaced in the mid-1980s. The residence includes sleeping quarters, food facilities, meeting rooms, reception areas, and offices, for a total of 3,500 square metres. In 2002-03, departmental expenses in support of La Citadelle totalled $913,000. This includes $445,000 in operations and utilities, $143,000 in payments in lieu of taxes, and $325,000 in repairs.

To assist the committee we have tabled with the clerk a chart that shows the yearly expenses incurred by PWGSC in support of the Governor General since 1996-97. The total costs given for La Citadelle include operations and utilities, repairs, and payments in lieu of taxes. Operations and utilities costs relate to the base cost of operating, cleaning, and performing routine maintenance of the building. Repair costs relate to one-time expenses, like the replacement of carpets, painting, and upgrades to health and safety systems, such as fire and security alarms.

¿ (0925)

[Translation]

The chart demonstrates an increase in total costs over the past four years. The operations and utilities costs have seen an increase due to the decision to open the facility to the public. The repair costs have increased due to the need to upgrade, replace or repair various aspects of the building. A long-term work plan for La Citadelle is in preparation.

[English]

There has been an increase since 2000-01 in repair costs over previous years, as we have been making up for repairs that have been deferred in previous years. These repair costs are asset driven, initiated by the department as custodian. The operations and utilities total is in line with other heritage structures, such as the Centre Block and Langevin Building, on a unit cost basis.

The La Salle Academy is situated on Sussex Drive across from the National Gallery and the War Museum. Its primary occupant is the Canadian Centre for Management Development. The chancery of the Governor General's office occupies just over 1,000 square metres of the building.

[Translation]

The chart also indicates the costs associated with the space in De La Salle Academy. The fit-up costs of $380,000 are in line with the norm for similar spaces for government departments. There is a decrease in imputed rent as the space in De La Salle Academy is smaller than the space in the previous location.

[English]

There are two other financial items that I wish to mention. We provide translation services and acquisition support to the Governor General, but these are included in the financial report of that office. Also, contained within the cost provided for La Citadelle there is an annual contribution of $75,000 to the Canadiana Fund and $50,000 reserved for acquisition of furniture, art, and other items for La Citadelle, which form part of of PWGSC's collection.

[Translation]

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening statement.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Mr. Lorimer.

We will now hear from Ms. Michelle Comeau from the National Capital Commission. You have the floor.

[English]

Ms. Michelle Comeau (Vice-President, Environment, Capital Lands and Parks Branch, National Capital Commission): Bonjour.

Thank you for the opportunity to present the National Capital Commission's roles and responsibilities regarding the management of Rideau Hall and to confirm the budget information that was requested of the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General.

[Translation]

The National Capital Commission is a crown corporation that was created by Parliament in 1959 with a mandate and mission to build the capital region as a symbol of pride and unity for all Canadians.

[English]

We have a board of directors from across Canada and we acquire a national perspective and professional breadth through committees, such as our advisory committee on the official residences of Canada and our advisory committee on planning, design, and realty.

[Translation]

The NCC is the largest landowner in Canada's capital region. We own and manage more than 53,000 hectares of land including Gatineau Park and the Greenbelt, capital parks and nationally significant public spaces as well as buildings and bridges.

The National Capital Commission is also the agency responsible for the preservation, maintenance and capital construction projects for all six official residences located in the region.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): You're talking too fast for the interpreters. We might miss some very important words. Thank you.

Ms. Michelle Comeau: I'm sorry. You have a copy of my speech. I'll try to speak a bit slower.

As I was saying, we are responsible for all six official residences located in the National Capital Region, as well as all of the associated capital construction projects.

[English]

These properties were transferred to the National Capital Commission from Public Works Canada in 1988. Prior to this transfer the NCC had been looking after the grounds of the official residences, including those at Rideau Hall, since 1934. As has been mentioned, the official residences are important heritage buildings, all designated by the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office.

¿ (0930)

[Translation]

Of the six official residences in the capital region under the responsibility of the National Capital Commission, Rideau Hall is the most significant in terms of the history of its buildings and grounds, and the most expensive in terms of its size and complexity. It is also the only official residence open to the public, with tens of thousands of Canadian and international visitors each year. In addition, Rideau Hall houses the official offices and staff of the Governor General.

[English]

Rideau Hall has been the residence for the Governor General of Canada since 1864. Since that time the building has expanded in phases to a complex today of close to 100,000 square feet. In addition to the main building, there are 26 other buildings on this site, many of recognized heritage status, some dating back to Confederation.

[Translation]

The Rideau Hall grounds are expensive and are a classified heritage landscape, one of two in Canada—the other being Parliament Hill. The grounds comprise 88 acres and include a 1.7 km perimeter fence, part of which, the main gate, is a classified heritage monument.

[English]

In order to carry out its responsibilities, the NCC has an ongoing reference level to cover personnel, operations, and maintenance costs. The forecast expenditures for Rideau Hall in these areas for 2003-04 are expected to reach $4.516 million. Furthermore, the capital expenditures for Rideau Hall in 2003-04 are anticipated to amount to $5.371 million. This compares to the costs of $2.2 million in operating expenses, to which you must add $1.7 million in personnel costs, and $7 million in capital previously reported for 2002-03.

[Translation]

Since the NCC became responsible for the official residences in 1988, capital requirements have always been funded from a separate budget allocation from Treasury Board. The funding received is for a multi-year capital works program approved by the NCC's board of directors and based on the need to ensure the safety and security of buildings and grounds, their life cycle renewal and heritage preservation, as well as to ensure the health and safety of the residents, their families, staff and visitors.

For the period of 1987-88 to 1998-99, the NCC received $25.8 million. In 1999, Treasury Board approved partial funding of $31.35 million for a six-year period and the NCC, in 2003, received authority to redirect a further $5.5 million from its own resources to fund health and safety repairs needed during 2003-2004 at the official residences.

[English]

The responsibility for the official residences portfolio within the NCC resides with the official residences division. The division consists of the property management section, grounds and greenhouse operations, and interior services. The NCC's design and construction division also provides architectural, engineering, landscape design, and long-term capital works planning and construction management services to Rideau Hall and the other official residences.

The National Capital Commission works with the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General and consults the Governor General, as we have with previous governor generals, to review projects, their timing, and their impact. If you refer to the table in your background documents that accompanies a large map of this site, you will see that in recent years the priority projects we have undertaken have been in the areas of site infrastructure repairs, such as sewer replacements and mechanical and electrical upgrades, and addressing urgent health and safety problems on the site that affect both visitors and staff.

[Translation]

The protection and enhancement of the capital's built heritage is an important part of the NCC's responsibilities to Canadians. The National Capital Commission is committed to directing its resources toward the protection and use of the official residences of Canada for today and future generations. That concludes my remarks.

[English]

We would be happy to take questions later.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you very much, Ms. Comeau.

I now turn the floor over to Mr. Dubois and Mr. Portelance from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Mr. Paul Dubois (Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for inviting the Department of Foreign Affairs to this meeting. The Chief of Protocol, Mr. Robert Collette, apologizes for not being able to be here today, and therefore I have been asked to appear before you on behalf of the department. I am accompanied by Mr. Roger Portelance, Deputy Chief of Protocol, and Mr. Todd Kuiack, Director of Management Services of the Office of Protocol.

I would like to outline for you the role of our department in supporting the Office of the Governor General, the process with respect to State visits abroad, and the financial support we provide for such visits. I will also give you a brief overview of the evolution in our department's role in managing State visits.

The role of the Department of Foreign Affairs in support of the Governor General is as follows. First, there is a protocol dimension with respect to the organization and delivery of both incoming State visits to Canada of foreign heads of State, and the State visits abroad of the Governor General. The number of these visits in both directions varies from year to year, depending on foreign policy priorities.

Second, on the substantive dimension, our role is to provide the Governor General with foreign policy advice and briefing material to assist her in her dealings with the diplomatic corps in Canada, as well as for her meetings with foreign dignitaries. This includes, for example, our work to support the presentation of credentials of new ambassadors to Canada. As well, the deputy minister briefs the Governor General regularly on foreign policy issues of relevance to Canada.

With respect to the process for organizing State visits abroad, in close consultation with Government House and the Privy Council Office, the Department of Foreign Affairs recommends State visits to be undertaken by the Governor General abroad. It is the Department of Foreign Affairs that seeks the agreement of the Prime Minister of Canada on these recommendations. The Prime Minister then asks the Governor General to conduct a given visit. The Department of Foreign Affairs assists the Governor General in the planning and organization of the visit.

With respect to the planning process for State visits, the Chief of Protocol of our department establishes and chairs a working group that brings together a range of stakeholders to prepare the visit. The group includes representatives from the Office of the Governor General, the Privy Council Office, Foreign Affairs and other departments, as necessary. In other words, there is a team approach and a shared responsibility for the planning of State visits abroad.

The actual organization and coordination of the visit program is channeled through this working group that is chaired by our Chief of Protocol. Through the Office of the Governor General, the working group makes recommendations to the Governor General on her program. The final decision on the program of the visit rests with the Governor General. The coordination of the overall program and logistics for State visits abroad is done by our Office of the Chief of Protocol, in collaboration with other government departments. It is the central point of contact and coordination for such visits in the government.

The responsibilities of the international visits program of our Office of Protocol include: visits abroad by the Governor General, the Prime Minister, and the ministers responsible for Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

The Office of Protocol is also responsible for a range of official incoming visits by foreign dignitaries, like the recent State visit to Canada of the UN Secretary General, Mr. Kofi Annan. Thus, our department has organized, in consultation with other stakeholders, 19 State visits to Canada between 1999 and 2003, and outgoing State visits to 10 countries by Governors General in the same period.

Such visits are decided based on a number of factors, including the issue of reciprocity. For example, the Governor General's State visit to Germany in 2001 was preceded by a State visit to Canada of Germany's President Richard von Weizsäcker in 1990. The same applies to the Governor General's Circumpolar Tour to Russia, Finland and Iceland in the fall of 2003.

¿ (0940)

The tour was preceded by State visits to Canada of the Presidents of Iceland, Finland and Russia in the 1980s and 90s. These visits are the highest expression of our valued relations with key countries. They are part and parcel of our international tool kit for advancing Canadian interests and values and for conveying what modern Canada means.

With respect to the financial support of State visits, the Department of Foreign Affairs administers and coordinates the budget for the Governor General's State visits abroad. In so doing, we are guided by the principles of results-based management and value for money.

With respect to the foreign travel of the Governor General, the Chief of Protocol develops a cost-sharing formula that may include contributions from Geographic/Cultural/Trade Branches of this Department, as well as other departments such as DND, RCMP, Government House. Each State visit of the Governor General is unique and the cost-sharing formula will vary. However, our priorities are always the same: to deliver a successful program in line with stated objectives and to be as efficient with our budget as possible.

For the fiscal year 2003-2004, our department's financial support to the Office of the Governor General totalled $5 million for the State visits abroad. For incoming State visits, our department does not pay for any Government House expenses. However, we do pay for what the Government of Canada offers to these incoming State visitors, which amounted to $560,000 for fiscal year 2003-2004.

Our department continues to review and improve the way we manage and organize these visits with a view to ensuring that the costs of these visits are in proportion to the benefits and results we are getting from them.

The current policy or approach on State visits abroad was established in 1979 by Prime Minister Trudeau who wrote to Governor General Léger that, and I quote:

A State visit by a Governor General [...] is like an official visit by the Prime Minister, an expression and an instrument of Canadian foreign policy [...] And can be valuable in forwarding or consolidating, in a broad general sense, Canadian political, trade, cultural and other objectives...

A visit by a Head of State is the highest ceremonial expression of the relationship between two countries, and an important vehicle and instrument for advancing our foreign policy goals. State visits by the Governor General and official visits by the Prime Minister are quite different in their objectives, their constitutional nature, and their form. However, they complement and reinforce each other.

To sum up, State visits have evolved considerably over the years. Each Governor General has put his or her unique personal stamp on such visits. The present Governor General has worked closely with our department to develop a new and innovative approach to State visits abroad, in order to improve the way we showcase modern Canada. This has helped other countries appreciate Canada's diversity, our values, our cultural talents and our economic and scientific strengths.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Mr. Dubois. Would it be possible for you to give us the notes that you have just read in both official languages, as requested by the opposition parties? All the committee members would appreciate having the notes that you've just read. Would that be possible?

Mr. Paul Dubois: I'll be able to send you the English version of my notes in a few days.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you.

Ms. Uteck, did you want to sum up your presentation or is everything satisfactory as far as you are concerned?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Everything is satisfactory, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. As I mentioned at the beginning, I intend to provide the committee clerk with the report that I promised you at the last meeting of the committee. I'll be doing so at the end of the meeting.

¿ (0945)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Very good. Thank you. I'd also like to thank all the witnesses. It has been very instructive and committee members must have many questions for you. If not, then I will. Of course, I'll start off with Mr. Benoit.

If you agree, since there are many witnesses, instead of giving the usual seven minutes, you will have five minutes so that everyone has a chance to question the different speakers. You will be able to have another go on the second round.

[English]

Mr. Leon Benoit (Lakeland, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for coming today. I appreciate your being here.

General Macdonald, I'd like to say that I've attended several of the ceremonies that the Governor General has put on to honour various military personnel. I want to say from the start that she does a marvellous job with those; she truly does a remarkable job with those.

Having said that, it is still the responsibility of the committee to monitor carefully the expenditure of money and to make sure that we're getting value for money spent.

I want to start the questioning with Mr. Dubois from Foreign Affairs.

You did say that the minister recommends official visits overseas for the Governor General, and that the Prime Minister would approve any of those official visits. Is that correct?

Mr. Paul Dubois: What I said, Mr. Benoit, is that the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Trade makes a recommendation, and the Prime Minister then decides whether or not to approve it. That particular decision is at his own discretion. Then a letter corresponding to it is issued.

Mr. Leon Benoit: When these recommendations are made, is the role of the Governor General carefully considered to ensure that any visits recommended really are falling within the expected role of the Governor General, based on the Constitution and law?

Mr. Paul Dubois: Absolutely. The role of the Governor General is well known in our Constitution. There is a long tradition behind that.

Maybe Madame Uteck could elaborate on that subject or role, but the letter of authorization from the Prime Minister falls within the purview of our Constitution, obviously.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Over the past five years, how have the tempo of the travel and official visits overseas and the costs changed?

Mr. Paul Dubois: As I tried to explain in my statement, the number of visits varies from year to year. So there are years where we have more visits of the Governor General abroad, and other years where it is quiet. For example, in 2003 there was the circumpolar trip of the Governor General to three countries. The year before, if I understand correctly, there were no visits abroad by the Governor General.

On the other side, there may be more or fewer visits of foreign heads of state, foreign heads of government, or by Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, who is considered to be at the level of a head of state. I believe this year—and maybe Monsieur Portelance could correct me if I'm wrong—the number of visits to Canada has been two. Last year we had more.

Mr. Leon Benoit: You gave a general number of $5 million.

Do you have that broken down, or could you table with the committee a breakdown of that number for the past five years? And do you have a projection for 2004-05 for the costs that your department will bear for the Governor General?

Mr. Paul Dubois: The $5 million that we have referred to is a global figure of the costs of supporting the visits of the Governor General abroad last year, in 2003-04. It includes the amount coming under the responsibility of the chief of protocol, which is the largest part of that amount; I think it's in the order of $4.3 million out of the $5 million. The rest of the funds come from a variety of sources, including, in the case of last year, which was basically the circumpolar visit, the geographic or European bureau, the bureau that I head. We contributed some funds for overtime of our people at missions abroad, and things like that. There are also funds coming from the cultural side of the department in support of—

¿ (0950)

Mr. Leon Benoit: What I'm looking for, though, is a list of that. I would ask that you table that with the committee.

My next question is, do you attempt to measure the value for money spent resulting from these visits; and if so, just give me a rough idea of how you do that, and your evaluation of value for money spent over the past few years.

Mr. Paul Dubois: I'll try to be as precise as I can in answering that.

Value for money is the fundamental question that I think is of concern for this department and for Canadians. The issue is how we weigh the value for money. It is very difficult to assess in the context of the different activities of the Government of Canada.

In the case of state visits, we try to consider how we present them in the global context of the development or functioning of our international relations with different countries. First of all, we have to identify how to orchestrate these visits—Prime Minister's visits, foreign minister's visits, other ministers' visits, and Governor General's visits. Once we have decided the countries we want to give a priority to, we have to orchestrate the visits in a way that gives us maximum return on the investment. This is where we have been developing in very close harmony and cooperation with other departments, particularly with the Governor General's office, new approaches to projecting the image of Canada abroad. This is the fundamental new element in these visits, trying to reach out and project the image of Canada as a diversified, tolerant country that can contribute to establishing more people-to-people links—and in the case of the circumpolar visit, the nordicity element of those relationships, and first nations' contacts. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are trying to project the innovative, creative part of what we have best in Canada.

Now, the measurement of that cannot be done as it is for trade. If you export goods to a country, you can see whether you have a profit or do not have a profit. The issue here is more in the middle-term and long-term perspective.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you.

Mr. Gaudet.

Mr. Roger Gaudet (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My first question is for Ms. Uteck. What is the role of Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada outside the country and what is her power?

I thought that the power of the Governor General of Canada was limited to this country and that she did not have any power outside it. When she is abroad, is she meant to be a symbol? Is it because she represents the Queen?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Mr. Gaudet, the Governor General is the Head of State of Canada and it is in this capacity that she represents Canada outside the country upon the recommendation of the Department of Foreign Affairs and the current Prime Minister, as Mr. Dubois explained. As Head of State, she represents Canada.

As far as her powers are concerned, she does have a symbolic power, the power to exercise influence and to represent, so to speak.

As Mr. Dubois said, quoting Prime Minister Trudeau in a letter to Mr. Léger, Governors General have been making State visits outside the country since 1926. It is a tradition that began with Lord Willingdon.

So it is an old tradition, and it is a foreign policy instrument of our country.

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Thank you.

Now, Mr. Moyer, how much was spent by Heritage Canada this year with respect to Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada?

¿ (0955)

Mr. Norman Moyer: I referred to some categories...

Mr. Roger Gaudet: You talked about certain categories but you did not give precise amounts.

Mr. Norman Moyer: No, this year it was approximately $20,000 to $30,000. Certain amounts at the end of year have not yet been entered.

An Hon. Member: Twenty to thirty thousand dollars?

Mr. Norman Moyer: Yes, our support is very limited, generally speaking. As I mentioned, some amounts were spent as part of Her Majesty's jubilee. In the present year, an amount remains to be paid as part of the Jubilee Medals Program, amounting to another $60,000.

Mr. Roger Gaudet: In other words, it wasn't only flags or little medals that you bought with this $20,000 or $30,000.

Mr. Norman Moyer: It was mainly in previous years that the medals were distributed. This year's costs are for the rest of this program. The total financial support that we provided in fiscal years 2002-2003 and 2003-2004 for Her Majesty's visit and the jubilee amounted to $800,000.

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Thank you.

Mr. Bruce Lorimer, what is the total financial support of Public Works Canada to Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada?

Mr. Bruce Lorimer: Are you talking about a particular type of service?

Mr. Roger Gaudet: How much did it cost Public Works Canada? You did not indicate this in your comments.

Mr. Bruce Lorimer: You would like the total cost? You will find the total cost in the table that was distributed. It includes the amounts that we provided since 1996 for the two buildings I mentioned as well as a projection for the present year.

For the most recent fiscal year, 2003-2004, the total amount was $1.228 million.

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Let me reword my question. In your case, it is limited to capital costs and maintenance, is that not so?

Mr. Bruce Lorimer: Yes, but it includes the salaries of our team members in the Quebec region as well as here in Ottawa.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Do you have one last question?

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Yes. You talked about the financial support of Heritage Canada. What is the level of this financial support? You said that it was between $20,000 and $30,000. That strikes me as a small amount.

Last summer I travelled with veterans. I was under the impression that Heritage Canada put a lot of money into this. I don't have anything against it. Let's say they did a good job. However, in view of the fact that Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada is a Head of State, I am rather skeptical when I hear you say that you spent only $30,000.

Mr. Norman Moyer: The expenditures of the Governor General are to be found in the appropriation granted to the Governor General. The support of our department to Rideau Hall is very limited. That is a fact.

The exception to this rule occurs during years when there is a royal visit. For example, there was a special program for the 50^th anniversary of the coronation of Her Majesty.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you.

Mr. Boudria.

Hon. Don Boudria (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.): First of all, let me say that I am not in agreement with the comment about the little medals. When MPs from all political parties presented on behalf of Her Excellency, in the name of Her Majesty, medals to our veterans, to war heroes and others in our constituencies, it wasn't just considered handing out little medals. Well, that's more of a comment, but I think I'm just as entitled to make it as the previous comment.

I'd now like to turn to the more serious issue of security. What has been increased in security and the cost of security after September 11? We know that here in Parliament we were forced to spend huge amounts. It's too bad but there was nothing we could do about it. That's the way things are and we had to spend this money to increase security here in Parliament. The same is true for 24 Sussex, when you pass by it you can see that it isn't like it used to be.

I am sure that Rideau Hall was not spared this increase in security costs, not only to protect the person of the Governor General but also for employees, infrastructure, etc.

What effect has that had on the level of spending? Perhaps the representatives of Public Works and the RCMP will be in the best position to answer this question. You may decide who should speak first. I don't want you to give me unnecessary details on security, for quite obvious reasons. I was a minister not so long ago and I know that we cannot reveal everything about security.

À (1000)

Mr. Bruce Lorimer: I don't have the details here, but as far as La Citadelle is concerned, the plans for this year and next year provide for an increase in fire protection services. I will have to check the actual security costs.

Hon. Don Boudria: But there is in fact an increase?

Mr. Bruce Lorimer: Yes, there is.

Hon. Don Boudria: That applies to the infrastructure. I imagine that we'll see the same thing for the protection component. I don't see how it could be otherwise.

[English]

A/Commr Dwight McCallum: Mr. Boudria, we all agree that the climate is very different today to what it was three or four years ago, prior to September 11.

We have always maintained a level of security with the Canadian executive that we were comfortable with that hasn't really altered since September 11. I'm referring to a domestic context within Canada. However, as you travel abroad, of course, it is not the RCMP's primary mandate abroad to provide services, but to ensure that the services are provided. In that context, depending on where people visit, naturally, security costs are higher, but they aren't borne by the Canadian government internationally.

Hon. Don Boudria: Right. In other words, insofar as the overseas travel, any increase would be the increase in efforts to coordinate as opposed to actual increases in security, because they're provided by the host. Is that kind of it?

A/Commr Dwight McCallum: That's absolutely correct.

Hon. Don Boudria: The only increase is domestically, both at the Citadel and at the residence, and of course during domestic travel.

A/Commr Dwight McCallum: The security at Rideau Hall today is consistent with three years ago. We've always enjoyed a fairly consistent level of security there. We're comfortable with the level of security. I was comfortable with it prior to September 11 and I'm comfortable with it today.

Hon. Don Boudria: Good.

A/Commr Dwight McCallum: Ironically, our costs have been consistent over the past three to four years.

Hon. Don Boudria: I see. Okay. That's the only question I have for the time being.

[Translation]

I may come back on the second round.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Ms. Yelich.

[English]

Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Blackstrap, CPC): Thank you very much.

I, too, would like to say that I have a lot of respect for the Governor General. I do think she does a fine job. However, I'm looking at this from another angle today.

It surprises me. I thought the Governor General would have a budget and she would work out of that budget. I didn't realize that all of those departments would have to find room in their budgets. I guess that's my one question: do you allocate funds out of your budget or are you only taking from other areas of your budget to cover these costs?

I have a particular question to DFAIT. This is why I think this has become such a subject in the news. It's because of the entourage that our Governor General had taken on the circumpolar visit; she had taken 19 or 20 extra guests. Who makes the decision? How does that come about? Where does that come into the Governor General's mandate to take these extra guests? That definitely has to impose extra costs, I would think. This must have cost all us extra in every department. I'm going to ask you each, does that in fact cost extra or who suggests that this is even allowable?

That's a couple of questions. Do you want to start with answering on the particular extra guests that she takes?

À (1005)

Mr. Paul Dubois: Thank you very much.

First, on your question of budgets, as far as our department is concerned, we do contribute for these officials' visits, for receiving foreign guests in Canada, as I mentioned.

In trying to answer your second question on how the list of guests comes about, it might be useful to remind ourselves that state visits do not take place in a vacuum but in a reciprocity context. I'd just like to bring to your attention that we receive very important heads of states in Canada. When they come here, they come to make a statement on the values or a projection of some of the elements that they believe are important in a relationship with Canada.

I'd like to cite two examples here. I referred to the visit of the President of Germany back in 1990. He came to Canada with a symphony orchestra that went across the country. He had in his delegation, just as a matter of example, 40 journalists who accompanied him to publicize his visit in Canada. One of the most famous images of the country that people remember from that visit was when he was barefoot on the coast of the Pacific Ocean. It was the first time the Germans saw their president barefoot.

All I'm trying to say here is that other heads of states come here with very substantial delegations. The King of Norway was here more recently. He put the emphasis more on the business-qua-science-and-technology side of things. He came here with 80 people from the business side, on top of his official delegation.

So the context is precisely that. It depends on what it is they are trying to project. We, in our committee, work together with the Governor General's office and with other departments. We're trying to reflect what it is that we can do to project the best image of Canada--or a different image of a modern Canada--abroad.

Mrs. Lynne Yelich: Well, I'll just interrupt. I could help you. You could talk to the agriculture department right now and perhaps get a better relationship with the United States, if you really are prioritizing our image and our relationships with other countries.

I think that's a fine answer, but I'm talking about the 19 or 20 people who went along with the Governor General to promote our arts or our culture. It actually has people questioning, because it had to have been, I would think, a lot of extra money for her trip.

We're talking about one person, one person's budget. Don't you think it would definitely put a strain on a budget to have such an entourage at a time like this?

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Could you keep your answers a little shorter, please?

[English]

Mrs. Lynne Yelich: Back to choosing what countries you want to...your eyes kind of lit up when I asked, if you're going to prioritize, what country is most important to make relationships with.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Ms. Yelich.

Mr. Paul Dubois: The people who accompanied the Governor General were selected with great care to generate real impact. We chose Canadian leaders, people able to project an image. And we had extraordinary press coverage during every one of the Governor General's trips. Take Russia, for example. We visited 14 different cities, and had round tables on specific themes, including aboriginal people, the environment, and cultural issues, to which you alluded. These round tables had a genuine and effective impact. I don't think there is any exaggeration at all here. We are talking about visits by a Head of State.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you.

Ms. Uteck.

[English]

Ms. Barbara Uteck: If I might just add to that, the delegation took scientists, environmentalists, and aboriginal people, as well as artists. The reason for that was to be able to engage with counterparts in those countries on issues of importance to Canadians, such as global warming, climate change, the global partnership. The Government of Canada is investing a considerable amount of money in working with Russians to decommission nuclear submarines. All of these kinds of issues were able to be discussed at very, very senior levels. This very much projects who we are as Canadians, as well as delivering on our foreign policy objectives.

That's why those people were chosen, why they were taken with the Governor General, because they supported her in projecting an image of Canada that is serious, modern, and engaged in important issues that face our fellow citizens in the world. Those people were able to support the Governor General in doing that.

À (1010)

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you.

Ms. Allard, the floor is yours.

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Vice-Chair.

I would like to join my colleagues in welcoming you before the committee. Thank you for being here today. Last year, I was able to hand out a number of Queen's Golden Jubilee medals. Several of the people had tears in their eyes, and were extremely touched to receive the medals. A selection committee was formed in my riding, and the medals made everyone very happy. I don't know whom to thank. If it is you I should thank, Mr. Moyer, please accept my personal gratitude. For the people who received them, these medals were no small thing.

On the other hand, it is of course difficult to assess the visibility of our Governor General, and of the official residences in Canada. But I can tell you about a real experience that I had last year.

People in my riding told me they would like to visit the Governor General's residence. To my huge surprise, upon calling the residence I learned that there were tours every half hour, and that the tours were very popular. Canadians are very interested in visiting Rideau Hall. I found this very difficult to believe, because I did not think they were that popular at all. Some of the people from my riding finally managed to get into one of the tours, and had an extraordinary time.

Nowhere in your documents do I see anything about the availability of Rideau Hall, which in fact is open to Canadians. I would like to know who among you deals with the tours, in which envelope the budget fits, and how many visitors—ordinary citizens—visit Rideau Hall each year. I would like you to provide some details on this.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Mr. Chairman, I think that I should answer Ms. Allard's question. The Governor General's Office is responsible for the visitors' program.

We have a special program to welcome Canadian visitors to Rideau Hall, and it takes up quite a bit of time. As you know, Rideau Hall is always open to Canadians. We welcome approximately 250,000 people every year. There are special tours, guided tours, non-guided tours, and tours for students. We also have tours to see Canadian works of arts, because there are many such works in the building because of cooperation between the National Gallery of Canada and many other Canadian museums.

I would like to add that La Citadelle is also a historic site which has been there for a long time. There is now a visitors' program for Canadians at La Citadelle along the lines of the one at Rideau Hall, which comprises educational tours focusing on our history and our heritage.

À (1015)

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Ms. Uteck and Mr. Chairman, I can testify here myself. When I went to Rideau Hall, I saw an Alfred Pellan canvas on the wall. And since my riding will be called Alfred-Pellan once the new boundary map is in place, I was quite thrilled to see a canvas by Alfred Pellan on a wall at Rideau Hall. Thank you for choosing Alfred Pellan to grace the walls of the Governor General's residence.

But you did not answer my question. Welcoming 250,000 visitors a year requires logistics, organization and security. I would like to know how much opening up Rideau Hall to Canadians actually costs.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Please forgive me.

I did not answer the question on the budget. Of course, that knowledge is essential to the committee.

The visitors' program is allocated an amount just under $1 million, which comes from the Governor General's budget.

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: For Quebec and Ottawa?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Yes.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you.

Mr. Perron.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I have a comment for my friend Carole-Marie.

Carole-Marie, if you had attended the last meeting of this committee rather than boycotting it, you would have learned from Ms. Uteck's presentation that 600,000 people had visited Rideau Hall over the last four years. That averages out not to 250,000 people a year, but rather to 150,000 a year. Since 1995, that figure has increased by 250 per cent.

Now I have a question for all our witnesses, and I would like an answer from each of them. In fact, I will answer the first question for you because I know that you will be unable to answer it yourselves.

In your departments, how can you project the expenses you will have in the year to come? I could not answer that question, since the figures are calculated on the basis of the number of visits made outside Canada and within Canada.

However, I note that you are required to enter as an individual budgetary item the amount allocated to the Governor General of Canada for the current year. Yet fiscal 2004-2005 is starting in just a few days, on April 1^st—this is not an April Fool's prank—and I wonder what your projected expenditures are for that period. Does this system make it possible for you to transfer funds from one budgetary item to another without too many problems?

The question I will put to you now is very important. Don't you think that these amounts should all be administered in one place, be it the Governor General's Office, Canadian Heritage or elsewhere, so that expenditure is better controlled?

You can answer my third question, which is in fact a sub-question, in writing. I would like to know how much you spent for lieutenant-governors. Do you all have a budgetary item for the lieutenant-governors in the provinces and territories? I would like the answer to this question in writing as well, if the chair allows me to make that request.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Yes, if it is possible to get an answer to your question, and I am sure that it will be.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: My last question is for Ms. Uteck, and I would like her to be the last to speak on this subject.

Are there any departments, other than those here today, which contribute to the Governor General's budget? Ms. Uteck, I would ask that you answer after the others have commented. Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you. I think that that is a fairly broad question. Who feels able to answer? Perhaps, where possible, you could each answer on behalf of your respective departments.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Mr. Chair, with your permission, and with all due respect for Mr. Perron, I would like to make it clear that each department that is here today has a specific mandate regarding the Governor General.

À (1020)

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: How much money are we talking about? How much is being budgeted for 2005?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: As I have already stated, in answer to your other questions, today I will be presenting an expenditure report for 2003-2004. This report, which I produced in collaboration with my colleagues here today, lays out the amount spent by each department in carrying out its mandated duties for 2003-2004.

For example, we do not have the necessary expertise to assume responsibility for security at Rideau Hall. That is part of the RCMP's mandate.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Mr. Chair, the question that I asked was the following: how much money do you plan to spend in 2005? I am not looking for political rhetoric. I want to know how much money will be spent in 2005.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Mr. Perron, in the opening presentation, it was clearly stated that a report will be presented. It will provide detailed figures from all the departments which have had to provide money for security, capital costs and so forth. In other words, figures from all the departments represented here.

The question of whether departments other than those here today are involved has been raised.The answer is either yes or no. We would like to have an answer.

Further to that, is it possible to have an idea of the size of the next budget? Is your projected budget greater or the same as the previous budget? Was that what you were asking, Mr. Perron?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Yes. Given that the budget is to be tabled in two weeks' time, the departments must surely have already submitted their 2005 budget forecasts to the Department of Finance.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I personally cannot speak about departmental responsibilities.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): The report which you are going to release...

Ms. Barbara Uteck: My report is based on information which I collated, information which was given to me by representatives of other departments.

If the committee wishes to have information about the future, it would have to ask the relevant departments. Responsibilities stemming from specific mandates fall under departmental jurisdiction.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: I want to know the budget forecasts for 2005. The budget will be tabled in a fortnight's time. I still have not seen the budget forecasts for the Governor General.

Mr. Norman Moyer: I think that I could answer your question.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Thank you, sir.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Are you prepared to provide this information?

Mr. Norman Moyer: Yes.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): So, that seems clear enough. From what I understand, you are saying that you are in a position to provide this information.

Mr. Norman Moyer: Although there are some things that cannot be predicted from year to year, the normal amount of $30,000 is included in our departmental budget.

Moreover, since a new Governor General is expected to be appointed next year, at least according to what the Prime Minister said, the costs of installing a Governor General are included in our budget for next year in case he makes that decision.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): So we agree on the estimates for 2005. That is the way I understand it.

The member also asked whether departments other than those represented here provide funding for the Governor General. Are there other departments involved that way or are all the funding departments represented here today?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: I believe that all the departments that provide services are represented here.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Are you satisfied, Mr. Perron? The answer is that all departments that provide any money or any service to the Governor General are represented here at the table.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: You can send the answer later to my question about the lieutenant-governors.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): I believe that it has already been answered, but you can answer it again, Mr. Moyer.

À (1025)

Mr. Norman Moyer: Expenses paid by the Government of Canada for lieutenant-governors are included in the budget of Canadian Heritage, and I can answer that question in writing.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: For each province, please.

Mr. Norman Moyer: For each province.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Thank you, sir.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Mr. Moyer.

Ms. Chamberlain.

[English]

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Thank you.

First of all I want to say I think it's a very important role that the Governor General plays, and I do think it is a source of pride for Canada. There isn't any question about that. And I think she is our representative all over the world. Things like the Golden Jubilee medals were very popular in my riding, too. There's no doubt about it. People were very pleased to get them. They really treasure them, and value them, and think they're worth a lot.

But I think we have to realize there was a lot of unhappy press around this last visit of the Governor General; we can't pretend that didn't exist. We have to be smart enough...and also respond to that.

Ms. Uteck, you talked about the fact that there were many people at a certain level who needed to go in order to talk--you know, scientists and whoever else--and my question really is around that area. When the Governor General visits our troops, that's extremely popular. People like that. People feel real pride to see her over there, and these are the types of things that get great media coverage. The circumpolar trip did not, and that's really where my question lies.

Has there been thought given to how you would promote this type of thing more positively if you were to do it in the future? Because clearly, you can't do the same things you did the last time and think it will be okay. People were cross. And we have to say yes, they were. They didn't think it was a good trip. Maybe it was. If so, it was in our communications then that we didn't properly do this beforehand, to have an explanation of what it would mean to Canada. I think that was missing from this trip.

So I would like you to talk to me a little bit about that. What might we see for the future to do better on something like that?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Quite clearly, Ms. Chamberlain, there were questions raised about the way in which the visit was conducted. I'm not sure it was a failure on the part of our communications. I guess I would say that we didn't seem to communicate well or to have understood the value of the Governor General carrying out a mission abroad with a representative selection of Canadians who were the top people in their field, there to support the Governor General in representing her country abroad. That's what they were there for, and that's what they did.

In over 93 events in those countries, the Canadians who were with the Governor General were engaging in promoting Canada, in promoting our foreign policy objectives, in relating to our host countries and the people in those host countries the nature of who we are as Canadians. And what that ultimately does is build relations on which future business transactions can happen, on which cooperation can happen at the international level on issues that face the citizens of the world. That is what international relations is all about, and a state visit is an instrument of foreign policy.

Could we do it differently? I'm sure we could do it differently. And I'm sure that when there's another state visit we will work very closely with the Department of Foreign Affairs to look at how to do things more effectively.

But I would argue that in spite of the criticism, this actually was a very effective visit, and perhaps Mr. Dubois would like to recount some of the evaluations that came from our embassies in those countries. They talked about the impact the visit had, about the extensive media coverage in those countries. In Russia alone, there were over 300 stories in the newspapers about Canada. That's a very concrete result and it leads to an awareness of Canada, which leads to better relations, which leads to our being able to carry on more trade, more exchanges, better communication. Those are all very positive for Canada and for the citizens of Canada.

À (1030)

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain: On that point I'll just say to you, before Mr. Dubois goes on, that I didn't know any of those things. So I think that's--

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Ms. Chamberlain, please, you have already taken five and a half minutes. Can you make it very short?

[English]

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain: I didn't know those things. I think the issue is that this is my point. This did not get communicated out. People don't know this. I did not know it, and I suspect neither did any of my colleagues here.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Mr. Dubois, please be very brief.

Mr. Paul Dubois: In support of what Ms. Uteck has just said, the results in the short, medium and long terms are extraordinary. In foreign policy, we need to make distinctions. Support for the Governor General produces medium-and long-term results. We are sowing the seeds that will bear fruit in Canada's relationships with Russia, Finland and Iceland, and it is difficult to measure that at every step.

It is important, however, to keep in mind the image that Canada has in those countries. The Governor General and the eminent Canadians who accompanied her did a wonderful job. They sent a message of tolerance and diversity and emphasized the key point of that circumpolar visit, which was our northern identity.

But you are probably right. Not enough was done to make Canadians aware of the goals and results of that visit. We may have done a better job of getting that message across abroad, in Russia, given the press coverage, which was extremely positive. Maybe we have some background work to do here so that we better explain what the objectives and expectations are and why these Canadians are keen to take part in it. It is not hard to get Canadians interested in doing these trips.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you very much, Mr. Dubois.

[English]

Hon. Brenda Chamberlain: On that point, I'll just say that I think when Canadians understand, they will be very supportive. The problem is they didn't understand.

Thank you.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Ms. Chamberlain.

We will now do a three-minute round. The three minutes includes both the question and the answer. If you have a long question, the answer will have to be very short. I will even interrupt you if necessary so that everyone has a chance to ask questions in the second round. So you have a total of three minutes for questions and answers.

[English]

Mr. Leon Benoit: Ms. Uteck, what was the total cost to taxpayers of that circumpolar trip?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: The total cost to taxpayers was $5 million.

Mr. Leon Benoit: You came back from that trip to attend our committee and you told us at the time the cost was about $1 million. Why the discrepancy between the two numbers?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Mr. Benoit, with all due respect, the $1 million figure that was reported in the press was conjecture on the part of one particular media organization. It was not corrected at the time, because the visit was in progress. The final figures weren't known, but the $1 million figure was never a correct figure. It was conjecture on the part of one particular media outlet, regrettably.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Well, Ms. Uteck, I was at the committee and my memory tells me, and the chair has just backed this up, that in fact you told us the cost would be $1 million.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: I haven't looked at the transcript recently to confirm what I said, but I know the budget we were working with was between $1 million and $1.5 million per country. That is the budget we were working with at the time.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I think the difficulty this committee has had in the past getting the information on the total costs of the Governor General has certainly hurt her office. I hope that will change, the availability of information from all departments that pay some of her costs. The reporting has to be better, and I'm assuming that's going to happen. I think we have a start here today.

But I'm not so sure that trip was good value for money. Other members have indicated they think it was. I'm not at all certain of that. I think Canadians are probably right in their evaluation that it probably wasn't good value for money. Mr. Dubois, in response to a question a few minutes ago, said that in fact there were outstanding results in the short, middle, and long terms, but I'm wondering how that's measured.

I asked about measuring value for money, and Mr. Dubois, you made that statement, but how do you measure whether there were outstanding results or not?

À (1035)

Mr. Paul Dubois: We measure that by the intensity of the relationship. First of all, at state visits you have access to the head of state, the head of government of the countries concerned, which is a privileged moment to pass on messages about the Canadian dossiers that we have vis-à-vis those countries. So it's another occasion to register them and get decisions that hopefully are in our direction. I won't get into the diplomatic elements of each of these meetings, but that is one element.

The other element is the fact that we are trying to reach out in communities. Let's not forget that in the case of Russia, for instance, we're talking about a country that went through a big transition over a number of years from a communist country to a nation of democracy and growth. What we are bringing to them at that level is the commitment of Canada in terms of developing democracy and human rights. This is a fundamental right--top down. The presence of the round tables we have organized there is delivering that message with NGOs, local communities, and people who are concerned about their future, their rule of law. The fact of having the head of state of Canada there--and we are indeed a very credible country in Russia, very credible in the north--brings substance to help them defend their own interests. These, in the long run, serve our Canadian interests because we are out there to build a country that is more tolerant and diversified.

Mr. Leon Benoit: General statements. I don't see--

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Mr. Benoit, you have already exceeded your four minutes. Mr. Shepherd, you have three minutes.

[English]

Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): I don't question that there was some value to this trip, but I guess the question is whether the quantum amount of money is relative to the amount of value we got. Some people say yes, there are some positive aspects, and indeed I've heard from some of my own members who were on this trip who told me there were some very valuable relationships built there, especially in the former Soviet Union. I guess what I question is whether this could be done more efficiently, more effectively. Is the GG the way to do these things?

Another big question I have in the back of my mind is how are these trips orchestrated? How many a year? How often? Who is responsible for orchestrating this? I think if DFAIT is involved in this, the question must be whether we can create these linkages in other ways that are more efficient and effective, possibly, and certainly at a lower cost to the Canadian taxpayer.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Mr. Shepherd, the state visits are an important instrument of foreign policy that are recommended by our Department of Foreign Affairs and approved by the Prime Minister. When a state visit is conducted by the head of state to another country, it is always at the invitation of the other country and it is often a reciprocal visit.

For example, the President of Russia was here, and subsequently the Governor General accepted an invitation to go to Russia on the advice of Foreign Affairs and the approval of the Prime Minister. That is because it is considered to be an important way of relating to other countries, of promoting our foreign policy objectives. The access that is granted to a visiting head of state is at the most senior level.

There's no question one always evaluates the effectiveness, the cost, and the value for money in anything you undertake as a representative of your country or as a public servant. Of course, in any future state visits I'm sure we will be evaluating how to best deliver on the foreign policy objectives in making that visit.

I'll just answer one other point you raised, and that is how often there have been state visits. This Governor General has undertaken three state visits abroad in the four and a half years that she's been Governor General.

À (1040)

[Translation]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you.

Mr. Gaudet.

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

From what I understand, you had fantastic press coverage in Russia, Finland and Iceland, but earlier on you were saying there were aboriginal people with you. I do not think the Canadian press, nor the Quebec press, saw this the same way. Aboriginal people here have problems, there are health problems and education problems in this country. When the press tells us that $1 million was spent, and then three weeks later, we are told that $5 million was spent, it is hard not to be skeptical. I do not know if you were afraid to tell us before the trip how much it would really cost and that you therefore did this on the sly, but I am having a hard time accepting that you would have had fantastic press coverage abroad, as you say, whereas it was the opposite here in Canada: the press coverage was not very good. What do you answer to that?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: We are going to try to better explain the purpose of our visits and to better communicate information, as we always try to do regarding the Governor General's activities and our visitors' program. In terms of communications, we are very open and we attempt to explain the role and the responsibilities of the Governor General.

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Fine, but I do not think that your visit to Russia was decided only 15 days before. Was this a spur of the moment trip? You would think that this trip could have been announced in the papers. Perhaps it was announced, but on page 82 where announcements are not particularly visible.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: We truly tried to explain this trip. We made announcements and we provided a considerable amount of information to the media, to the journalists, on our website, etc. in order to explain the goals of this visit. I am not personally responsible for how this is reflected in the media. We are responsible for providing as much information as possible and that is what we tried to do for this State visit, in the fall, and for all our activities. I suggest you visit our website to see what I am talking about.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Mr. Dubois, do you have anything else to add?

Mr. Paul Dubois: I would just like to add a point of clarification. Obviously we do not control the press, but there is something that should be recalled. When this visit took place, the foreign press was very sensitive to the message we were trying to send. Today, we are all focusing on the issue of the circumpolar trip, but I would like to remind you of one thing. The Governor General's visit in 2001 to Germany focused on a theme that was different from the nordic theme; this was culture. There was extraordinary press coverage in Germany at that time. Even today, we are still benefiting from the results: many Canadian artists in music, cinema and theatre are now producing work in Germany. Perhaps this would have happened anyway, but not necessarily. I think that many of these things are happening because of the Governor General's visit. Does one hear of these results in the Canadian press? Not at all. There is a communication problem. How is it that the Canadian press is not interested in the successes of our Canadian writers, producers and creators? I would like to have your support and the support of parliamentarians in promoting Canadian pride, which has been acknowledged abroad. I think that the Governor General makes an enormous contribution to this.

À (1045)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Mr. Dubois.

Ms. Allard.

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I see that Mr. Perron is boycotting us. I hope that he will reflect on what he said earlier.

This morning we talked about how difficult it is to draw the press's attention to issues that are not sensational. I am in a good position to speak about this because I was a journalist for 15 years. I can tell you that in fact, it is often the bad news that gets attention. However, you must not worry too much because in the end, whether an issue is being talked about positively or negatively, the important thing is that it is being talked about.

This morning, we can talk about the positive aspects of our Governor General's influence abroad. We can talk about it positively this morning, and I think that we should be reassured. It is true, however, that this will have left a mark in Canadians' minds.

The issue of accountability for public funds has been raised and it will remain an issue. As you pointed out, Ms. Uteck, there needs to be better communication. Have you, for example, allowed for paying for publicity in your budgets? Often, the best way to get oneself talked about in the media is to pay for publicity. Certain political parties know this. Have you thought of paying for publicity that would promote the Governor General's positive role?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: No, not at this time. We have published announcements inviting people to special events, but in terms of—

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: If I understand you correctly, you feel that paying for announcements in the newspapers to promote the Governor General's role would be a waste of money.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: We currently have no plans to promote the Governor General's role. However, we are doing everything we can to interest the media and citizens in our information, without formally using publicity.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you. I would like to ask the members of the committee if I can ask one or two questions myself. First however, you have the floor, Mr. Boudria.

Hon. Don Boudria: I think one needs to be careful in criticizing. After all, Canada is a G-8 country, and it therefore has to act like a G-8 country. We cannot send the Governor General abroad on a bicycle. These things have to happen with dignity, in a respectful fashion. I was a minister for a long time and I worked in the area of international cooperation and in many other areas as well. There are expectations of Canada. Canadians are expected to be seen abroad and there is a certain amount of status related to that. It is important that our Governor General represent us in the best possible way. This is not an excuse to waste money, however, it has to be done properly. That is why I encourage everyone to be careful in their criticisms.

I would like to ask another question. I am going to talk about something completely different. Over the past few years, her Excellency has put an enormous amount of work into encouraging artists and ensuring that they have a lot of visibility. I think this is extraordinary. When I talk about artists, I mean all artists, performers, etc. I attended the Governor General's Performing Arts Awards and I would like to know that this is going to continue. Despite the criticisms, I think that the Governor General does a good job representing us abroad. I would not like to hear people say that because we need to cut somewhere, we are going to cut into the promotion of certain Canadian values. We are talking about visibility of artists, of Canadian wine, which I congratulate you on serving because you come from an agricultural area, etc. I would like to hear a commitment to this continuing, to continuing the promotion of our values: artists, culture, food, culinary arts, etc.

À (1050)

Ms. Barbara Uteck: In answer to your question, Mr. Boudria, I would like to point out that the promotion of Canadian values is part of the Governor General's mandate. I think that Canadians feel very strongly about their culture and their artists. I apologize for having perhaps misspoken a little earlier, but we receive a lot of support from the Canada Council for the Arts with regard to the administration of the Governor General's Awards, the Governor General's Book Awards and the Governor General's Performing Arts Awards. Perhaps we should have asked representatives from the Canada Council for the Arts to be here today.

Hon. Don Boudria: If I may, I would like to ask one final brief question.

Can you assure us that the Governor General's participation in the Champlain 2004-2008 events will be significant? I am a historian deep down inside and I would like the presence of her Excellency to be highlighted during those events. After all, she is, 400 years later, the successor of Samuel de Champlain. The same may be repeated in 2008, but no matter, I would like to have the assurance that in 2004, she will be involved in events across the country.

Ms. Barbara Uteck: I will make a note of that.

Hon. Don Boudria: Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you, Mr. Boudria.

As for me, I will obviously raise the issue of travel.

For our constituents, travelling abroad to promote Canada, Canadians and its regions is not problematic. What is at issue is money.

It seems that when a huge delegation travels abroad, its members are from Canada's monied class, be it representatives from Bombardier or another company. These people can afford to travel abroad anyway.

These delegations, which include the Governor General or other representatives, could be made up of private sector people who can fund their own expenses, as well as people who do not have the financial wherewithal to do so. The latter might include SMEs, very small businesses, researchers or even students. There could be a more specific combination of the participants. Everyone, including those who do not have any money, could be part of a delegation. I think the public would be more accepting of the costs involved if it were done that way.

We could, for instance, receive export aid to help promote an artist in Russia who is not otherwise known abroad. In the same manner, people from very rich cultures could come to Canada even if they are not known internationally. We could promote all Canadians and Quebeckers, and people from every region.

This is a potentially interesting idea. Why should delegations only include businessmen representing Shell or other multinationals? They already have a lot of money, and, of course, they should go along, but why should they not underwrite part of the costs of sending a delegation? If these delegations were made up of successful business people and those who do not have huge financial resources, it would give Canada a very positive image abroad. In my view, this represents an interesting idea.

My second question is really for Ms. Uteck, although I would also like to hear what Mr. Dubois has to say. I want to know why the Governor General's expenses increased from 8 to $16 million during her mandate. How high will her expenses be next year? When will it stop?

How do you explain this to people who are having a hard time in their part of the country? In the Saguenay area, the only people who are not unemployed are basically those working for members of Parliament. Alcan has laid off employees, several regions have suffered because of the softwood lumber situation, and it is no different throughout the rest of the country. It is the same for our farmers.

Even members' budgets have not increased so spectacularly. The Governor General's expenses increased by 200 per cent. So how do you explain this increase within the space of one mandate? Please explain.

À (1055)

Ms. Barbara Uteck: Mr. Chairman, in answer to your question with regard to the increase in expenses, which total $7.5 million, I would say the following.

The rise in expenses is mostly due to the Rideau Hall visitors program, to the promotion of awards and decorations, to the upgrade of our computer system, as well as to employee-related health and safety measures. I would also like to point out that our budget will not change next year. We have not asked for an increase in our budget. I would also like to refer to the presentation I made on February 26, as well as to the information I already provided to the committee in October.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): You have told us why the budget was increased. But why has it doubled? If I doubled my own budget, I would obviously be able to provide a better service. Why did you increase your budget by so much within a single mandate?

Ms. Barbara Uteck: First, some of these requests were made during the mandate of the previous Governor General. Second, we had to make certain changes in accordance with the Labour Code to protect our employees. Third, we had not upgraded our computer system and had to do so to bring us in line with other government departments and to improve the way we communicate with Canadians.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): Thank you. I have not given myself enough time, but that is all right, since we will surely have another opportunity to ask further questions.

That will be all.

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Will we be receiving the report which was mentioned at the beginning, the report on expenses for 2003-2004?

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Lanctôt): It has already been distributed.

I would like to thank the witnesses and the members of the committee. Good bye.

The meeting is adjourned.