TRGO Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, April 25, 2002

Á

1105

The Chair (Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce--Grey--Owen Sound, Lib.))

Mr. Barry Brown (Chair of the Board, Canadian Construction Association)

Á

1110

Á

1115

The Chair

Mr. Dave Tilley (National Representative, Canadian Auto Workers Union)

Á

1120

The Chair

Mr. Peter Turner (Individual Presentation)

Á

1125

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP)

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette (Director, Road Builders and Heavy Construction, Canadian Construction Association)

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Á

1130

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Á

1135

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

The Chair

Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi--Le Fjord, Lib.)

Mr. Peter Turner

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull--Aylmer, Lib.)

Á

1140

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Jim Facette

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, BQ)

Á

1145

Mr. Dave Tilley

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Dave Tilley

Á

1150

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Dave Tilley

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Jim Facette

Á

1155

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Jim Facette

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Peter Turner

Â

1200

The Chair

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.)

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Â

1205

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Dave Tilley

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Dave Tilley

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Paul Szabo

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Dave Tilley

Mr. Paul Szabo

The Chair

Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.)

Mr. Peter Turner

Â

1210

Mr. Alex Shepherd

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Alex Shepherd

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Alex Shepherd

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Alex Shepherd

Â

1215

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Alex Shepherd

Mr. Peter Turner

Mr. Barry Brown

Mr. Alex Shepherd

Mr. Barry Brown

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Â

1220

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

M. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Barry Brown

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Jim Facette

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Â

1225

Mr. Len Poirier (President, CAW Local 4268; President, CAW Road Transportation Council, Canadian Auto Workers Union)

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Â

1230

Mr. Len Poirier

Mr. Nigel Cave (Unit Chairperson, Local 4268, Canadian Auto Workers Union)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Nigel Cave

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Peter Turner

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Peter Turner

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Alex Shepherd

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Â

1235

Mr. Len Poirier

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Mr. Peter Turner

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations

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NUMBER 061

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Thursday, April 25, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Á  (1105)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce--Grey--Owen Sound, Lib.)): I'd like to start the meeting.

    Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're doing truckers hours of service and transborder problems with regard to the Canadian trucking industry.

    This morning, from the Canadian Construction Association, we have Jim Facette and Barry Brown. From the CAW, we have Dave Tilley, Len Poirier, and Nigel Cave, and as an individual, we have Peter Turner.

    Welcome, gentlemen. You know the story, so let's have your dissertation. Thank you.

    Mr. Barry Brown (Chair of the Board, Canadian Construction Association): Good morning, Mr. Chairman, committee members. Thank you for this opportunity today to contribute to your examination of the rules governing commercial drivers' hours of service.

    I am Barry Brown, chairman of the Canadian Construction Association, and I earn my living in the road-building and heavy construction industry. My firm is Maple Leaf Construction and I'm based in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

    Before I begin our presentation today, Mr. Chairman, I may have to leave a little earlier than I would normally like to because I have another meeting.

    First I will describe who the Canadian Construction Association represents and then comment on how we see the proposed changes to the commercial vehicle drivers' hours of service regulations affecting our industry, particularly the road-building and heavy construction sector.

    As Canada's largest industry, the Canadian Construction Association represents the interests of the non-residential construction industry, employing more than 860,000 persons and producing goods and services of $134 billion. The non-residential construction industry accounts for 51% of the total construction industry in Canada.

    We have four sectors: the general contracting community, the skilled trades, the road builders and heavy construction sector, and the supply and services sector.

    It is the road-building and heavy construction sector that will be affected the most by the proposed changes to the hours of service regulations. It is this sector that uses heavy trucks to transport materials, be it concrete, asphalt, aggregates, earth, heavy equipment, construction supplies, or vehicles used for the purposes of repairs and service of that machinery.

    The commercial vehicle drivers hours of service regulations, published in 1994 and subsequently adopted by provincial governments, albeit to varying degrees, define commercial vehicle to include “a truck, tractor or trailer, or any combination thereof, that has a registered gross vehicle weight in excess of 4,500 kg”. In other words, any commercial licensed vehicle used in our industry and weighing more than 4,500 kilograms must comply with these regulations.

    To give you an example, a typical unloaded tri-axle dump truck will weigh somewhere between 10 and 12 metric tonnes, a loaded tri-axle dump truck could weigh up to 36 metric tonnes, and a typical service vehicle used in our industry will weigh somewhere between 3 and 6 metric tonnes, more likely closer to 6 tonnes.

    These examples do not include trucks that we use to transport the machinery—the low beds, flatbeds, and float machinery. Their weight will depend on the load they're actually carrying, the type of machinery they're carrying.

    I'm sure by now you can easily see how these regulations apply to our industry. The most important issue for any construction company is safety. We take safety seriously. Like the oil and gas industry, if we do not take safety seriously, people get killed and we would not be in business. Every province in Canada has a safety association. We train our people in work-site safety, and we are constantly updating our methods.

    Our safety records are monitored and rewarded by governments. We are very proud of our commitment and accomplishments in making our work environment safer for everyone.

    The proposed revisions deal strictly with drivers' hours--what constitutes a day and other related areas. No proposed changes are recommended to exemptions, permits, or what does or does not constitute a commercial vehicle.

    Mr. Chairman, committee members, the Canadian Construction Association requests that the committee recommend to the Minister of Transport that the construction industry be exempt from the daily limit and weekly cap provisions set out in the regulations.

    We see three options upon which our request can be granted. First, drivers of oil well service vehicles are currently exempt from the daily limit and weekly cap provisions. The regulations provide for the issuing of permits to motor vehicles authorizing them to exceed the driving times and on-duty times, provided the motor carrier and “the driver employed or otherwise engaged by the motor carrier comply with the conditions set out in the permit”.

    The duration of the permit may “not exceed one year” and must state “the cumulative driving time and on-duty time that a driver employed or otherwise engaged by the motor carrier to whom the permit is issued may be permitted to drive”, and these times “may not exceed 15 hours of driving time following at least 8 consecutive hours of off-duty time, 18 hours of on-duty time following at least 8 consecutive hours of off-duty time, and 70 hours of on-duty time during a period of seven consecutive days”.

Á  (1110)  

    A motor carrier who holds a permit must, every six months after the date of its issue, provide the regulatory authorities with copies of the drivers' daily logs and supporting documents and a list of accidents involving any driver employed or otherwise engaged by the carrier.

    This permit, commonly referred to as the oil field exemption permit, exempts the driver of oil well service vehicles from the daily limit and weekly cap provisions set out in the regulations.

    The construction industry is prepared to accept a set of agreed upon conditions for issuing the exemption permits. These conditions would have to recognize the uniqueness of the construction industry. We are always prepared to work with the proper authorities to ensure that drivers of construction trucks meet any and all necessary training standards.

    For example, companies that provide oil field service vehicles registered for the exemption permit must have a fatigue management program. This concept is not new to the construction industry. Last year, our industry was active in working with the Province of Alberta in developing their requirement for a fatigue management program. The purpose of this program is to ensure management, supervisory personnel, and employees understand what fatigue is, how extended hours of work on consecutive days of work can affect fatigue, and proper proactive methods of effectively dealing with worker fatigue.

    Due to the nature of work, the road-building and heavy construction industry is required to extend the working hours of its employees. Alberta has taken the lead in requiring proper training of employees.

    The second option in granting our exemption is to raise the weight limit at which the regulations take effect for vehicles deemed to be primary for use in construction.

    The third and best alternative, we believe, is the option that would stipulate that due to the nature of the industry, that being our dependency on weather—basically, our industry works only six months of the year and our employees and workers are on unemployment for the other six months of the year—licensed construction vehicles are not, and I repeat not, subject to these regulations.

    This would treat construction vehicles the same way as urban transit service buses are treated, that is, as non-commercial vehicles. Public transit buses, like OC Transpo here in Ottawa, are not subject to the commercial vehicle drivers hours of service regulations.

    The proposed revisions that you are studying make no mention of reviewing who is and who is not subject to the regulations. It only deals with the issues related to rest periods, driving periods, and the separation of time between these periods.

    A public transit bus loaded with people is not required to have a driver who drives continuously subject to the same regulations a construction driver of an empty dump truck would be who does not drive continuously.

    This last proposal, treating our vehicles as non-commercial as defined by the regulation, would be our preferred option.

    Mr. Chairman, committee members, let there be no misunderstanding: we are committed to safety. If we are not, people will die. Construction, especially that of the road-building and heavy construction industry, is weather dependent. Our time, unfortunately, is very short in the construction season. Limitation on the working hours of driver service is a huge detriment to our industry, in which we have timelines to finish the job and which is basically related to weather. If we get two or three days of rain and the job has to be finished, we have to keep going.

    The proposed changes would severely limit our ability to do our job and in most cases would make it impossible. The Canadian Construction Association requests that this committee not only address the issue but treat construction vehicles as non-commercial vehicles.

    Thank you for this opportunity. I'd be pleased to answer any questions.

Á  (1115)  

    The Chair: Thanks, Barry. We'll hear from the CAW.

    Mr. Dave Tilley (National Representative, Canadian Auto Workers Union): Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thanks for the opportunity to come here today and address you.

    My name is Dave Tilley, and I am a national representative of the Canadian Auto Workers Union.

    With me today is Len Poirier, the president of Local 4268. He's also the president of the CAW Road Transport Council. The Road Transport Council is made up of local unions across the country that have membership in the road transport industry, and they are involved in both over-the-road trucking and bus transportation.

    Also in attendance today is Nigel Cave, who is a unit chairperson of Local 4268. He's also a driver.

    Although our brief, which we submitted earlier to the committee, touched on several issues, today we'd like to take our time to focus on just a few.

    It is very clear that road transportation plays an extremely important part in the economy of our nation. The north-south movement of freight over borders has become more prevalent than the movement of goods within our own borders. International trade, which relies on truck traffic, is essential. As examples, the Hon. David Collenette has stated that the Detroit-Windsor gateway is the most important economic link between Canada and the United States. Also, Mr. Jim Steele of the United States Federal Highway Administration said that the transportation networks of the United States and Canada must work in tandem to help ensure the economic prosperity of both countries. Both of these statements are in reference to traffic movement and security, but they should also include public safety.

    There was a time when our hours of service paralleled the United States, the only difference being that logbooks weren't required in Canada. We moved to a day of 13 hours driving and two hours on duty, with a 60- or 70-hour weekly cycle and mandatory logbooks. Now we're looking at widening the gap with our major trading partner by extending the daily driving time and also shortening the rest period. Consideration should be given to shortening the driving time to 12 hours per day.

    Under the current rules of 13 hours driving and two hours on duty, there's little, if any, time for a driver to have any semblance of a family life during the work week. If they operate the complete cycle, which many do, there's no time left for family life, as the eight hours off are consumed by travel to and from home in many cases as well as sleep.

    Most drivers have accepted that through the week it will be work and sleep and not much else. Drivers look forward to weekends and plan everything they do around them, where they can count on 48 hours off duty. They've also recognized that these weekends may not necessarily be on Saturday and Sunday. Nevertheless, it's 48 hours off and a time to catch up on sleep and family responsibilities.

    Too often the family factor is ignored, and it shouldn't be. It has to be as important as the safety factor. Drivers need two full nights at home to catch up on rest and family responsibilities, and both are equally as important.

    It is the CAW's position that the rest period must be a minimum of 48 hours at the end of a cycle.

    I'd also like to touch on the issue of logbooks. This method of recording driving and off-duty time has been around for many years, and drivers have become very skillful at cheating on them. The technology is available for on-board electronic recording devices, which are more commonly known as black boxes. Some carriers have already seen the value of this technology and have installed black boxes in their fleets.

    It would be our position that whatever form the hours-of-service regulations take, it should include a phase-in of on-board electronic recording devices.

    Finally, our union is affiliated with the ITF, which is the International Transport Workers' Federation. It consists of hundreds of affiliated unions around the world. For many years the ITF has had an organizing campaign against driver fatigue. Our union participates each year, leafleting truck stops and speaking with drivers on the issue of driver fatigue. The message from the drivers is clear: the longer you drive, the less alert you are.

    We attended a meeting of the ITF Road Transport Steering Committee on April 9 and 10 of this year in the U.K., which was attended by representatives of the European nations as well as Africa, South America, and India. They were absolutely amazed at the current hours-of-service regulations we have in Canada, let alone that there was a desire to increase the hours. Most of the people in attendance at that meeting operate under a nine-hour day and a 45- or 48-hour week.

    Clearly, drivers don't need more hours of work. They need to be paid for all the hours they do work.

    Today more and more employers are adopting the policy of flat-rate payments for certain functions, such as border crossings and waiting for loads. When a driver receives the same payment for waiting one hour or three hours, there's little or no incentive to get him moving. To extend working hours will add to this current problem.

Á  (1120)  

    Drivers today don't need more hours behind the wheel and fewer hours at home; they need more hours at home and fewer hours behind the wheel. If we move in that direction, it will be a move towards a more productive industry and safer highways. Thank you.

    The Chair: We will now hear from Peter Turner, as an individual.

    Mr. Peter Turner (Individual Presentation): Good morning. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak to you.

    I am a former driver of 22 years who got out of the business because of low pay and working conditions that threatened my health and safety as well as the safety of other road users. Whereas my colleagues and friends and family are still in the business and are very afraid to speak out, I can do this without fear of economic consequences from the companies.

    Over the last 15 years, the trucking industry has cut things to the bone to compete with itself. It has come on the backs of the drivers. This industry has created this mess. The people who are getting hurt are the owner-operators, the drivers, and families, who are getting too little pay for too much work. As an owner-operator, I was left to run harder and harder so I could pay my bills. In the process, I couldn't sleep, I wasn't eating properly, and I was running myself into the ground. I was becoming a danger to the public, myself, and my family.

    I have heard this story over and over again from drivers who are being held for ransom by these companies that think if they starve you, you will have to break the law in order to survive. Of course, if you're caught working too many hours, the companies don't expect to bear any responsibility.

    Here are some of the things drivers are typically not paid for: waiting for loads, border crossing, loading, unloading, weather delays, traffic delays, company paperwork, trailer switches, breakdowns, inspections. The truck drivers are expected to do all these things for free.

    The industry has to start to take responsibility for the mess it has created. Adding more hours to the truckers' and bus drivers' workloads will only add to the problem. If you overload your employees, there will be a lot of unhappy people. Mistakes will happen. It is one thing for someone to fall asleep at a desk, where you might get a bump on the forehead as a result. It's quite a different thing to fall asleep at the wheel of a 130,000-pound truck. Somebody may get killed.

    I've been talking to drivers across Ontario. I have talked to well over 800 drivers, who have signed the petition I have been taking to the truck stops. More and more are signing this petition every day. They are saying an 84-hour work week with one day off will mean more hours of work than the workload they are attempting to handle today. They're saying no to an 84-hour work week. They tell me they would rather get more money than more hours.

    Drivers in Canada want to set world records in Olympic sports, not in the hours of service they will have to do. The Canadian proposed hours rules will certainly not enhance quality of life for the drivers.

    The 36-hour reset is a pathetic joke. Truck drivers are generously given 36 hours, while a normal weekend has 64 hours off. My experience shows that at times, even three days was not enough to recover from the cumulative fatigue of a 60-hour work week. I have talked to drivers with experience ranging from 1 year to 20 years. They agree they could not do this safely for 50 weeks out of the year. I've been told by drivers that on the first day they do not do anything. On the second day they start to come back into the mainstream of life. On the third day they have to start getting ready to go back to work. Under the 36-hour reset, you will force these drivers to do all this in one day. How is a driver supposed to look after his family and truck with only one day off?

    I got out of trucking because I was always half asleep. I particularly remember one trip when my wife and I had loaded 44,000 pounds of stainless steel going to Ocala, Florida. I had just crossed into Florida on a beautiful sunny day, and suddenly I felt my wife pulling on my sleeve and calling my name. I had fallen asleep. I did not feel this coming on. If she hadn't been there and reacted as quickly as she did, I would not be here today to talk to you.

Á  (1125)  

    This happens far too often to me and other drivers. Over the years, I have seen drivers do the most stupid things. But looking back now, I understand most of those drivers were so tired they couldn't think straight.

    As I've stated in the past, the only person who would want an 84-hour work week for truckers is someone who doesn't have to run the highways or drive for a living. In the United States they have adopted the 60-hour work week. For truckers in Europe, it's even less.

    Are Canadian drivers supposed to be superhuman, or are we headed for a supernightmare on our roads? Who's going to accept all the responsibility for the tragedies that will occur if this proposal goes through?

    Thank you.

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    We'll start with a round of questions, starting with Bev Desjarlais from the NDP.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Brown, you mentioned the OC Transpo drivers and the fact that they don't have any limitations because they're not considered—

    Mr. Barry Brown: Bus drivers.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Bus drivers, yes, that they're not considered commercial vehicles. Do you know how many hours they are allowed to drive?

    Mr. Barry Brown: No, I don't know that.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: So it's well within reason to suggest they are driving eight hours a day.

    Mr. Jim Facette (Director, Road Builders and Heavy Construction, Canadian Construction Association): If I may, Mr. Chair, I'll try to answer that question.

    There was a recent report here in the city of Ottawa. As you know, the city must report all people on the public payroll who make more than $100,000. I believe there were at least two OC Transpo drivers who made more than $100,000. That would take an awful lot of hours at about...I don't know, but if we imagine a salary of somewhere between $14 and $18 an hour—

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Okay, so two drivers—

    Mr. Jim Facette: Made more than $100,000.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: —made more than $100,000.

    Mr. Jim Facette: That's an awful lot of hours. Typical driving for city buses is probably in the 40-hour range, but they're driving continuously all day long.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Do you know for certain that they're driving all day long, not getting breaks? They don't get a lunch break. They're not getting a beverage break or a relaxation break. And out of all the OC Transpo drivers out there, two of them made over $100,000. Do you know what their hourly rate of pay is?

    Mr. Jim Facette: It varies, depending on seniority.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Do you know what their hourly rate of pay is?

    Mr. Jim Facette: Not exactly, no.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Do you know where it starts and do you know where the top of it is?

    Mr. Jim Facette: No.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Okay. For you to make a statement that just because they've made $100,000 they've obviously driven way over, you're just basing that on pure speculation.

    Mr. Jim Facette: No. If--

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Do you know what the lower rate of pay is and do you know what the higher rate of pay is?

    Mr. Jim Facette: No.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: So in reality, you're basing it on speculation, that two drivers out of all the drivers made over $100,000.

    In regard to the construction industry being considered exempt, like the oil field exemption, does the oil field exemption apply to all of the drivers who are on the TransCanada Highway, driving nationwide under the oil field exemption? Who does it apply to?

    Mr. Barry Brown: Basically, those are drivers who are picking up from the oil fields and serving the oil fields. It is not 100%, but certainly most of it is what I call “within the province”. So they would pick up in Alberta and they would drop off in Alberta. There may be the odd occasion where they would cross the border, but they're not highway haulers or what I would call long-distance drivers.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes. As you said, they're usually driving from where they're picking up the oil to a central point where they're off-loading something. So my understanding is it's not as if they're on the highway the majority of the time; they're on other roads in other areas.

    Mr. Barry Brown: I would agree. And that's the same as the construction people. We're not talking about people going across a number of provinces. We're basically talking about within a province.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Okay, but I'm talking even distances within the oil field exemption. They're not driving from, say, southern Alberta to Edmonton.

Á  (1130)  

    Mr. Barry Brown: I wouldn't think so normally, but neither are the construction people. Lots of times a long haul for us is 50 or 60 miles. That's long. Normal hauls are 10 or 20 or 30 miles.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Those under the oil field exemption, are they driving in highly populated areas like urban centres on highways like the 401?

    Mr. Barry Brown: They may or may not be, I don't know. I don't know where they pick up and where they go to, so I couldn't answer that.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Drivers who drive within the construction industry—and I'm asking you the questions first because I know you have to leave early—

    Mr. Barry Brown: No, I appreciate it.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: —so I know I'll have a chance. I'm the only opposition member who thought this was important enough to be here, being that we were holding the meetings in Ottawa so that everybody would get a chance to hear.

    A voice: Since the Alliance didn't want to travel.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Exactly, since the Alliance didn't wish to travel.

    I know I'll have an opportunity to question the others as well.

    In regard to the numbers of hours that construction worker drivers would drive, what would you say is the daily average?

    Mr. Barry Brown: It would vary, but I would say in the construction industry, where I'm talking about heavy construction, they would normally put in probably a 13-hour day.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: So if that's the normal... why would you see the need for an exemption? You were in fact indicating 15 hours with 8 hours off, 70 hours per week?

    Mr. Barry Brown: Part of the problem is that we're weather dependent. So if there are two or three days of rain and they don't work and we have a timeline we have to finish, we could go seven or eight days straight.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: So you would do those seven or eight days still at the 13 hours—

    Mr. Barry Brown: Yes.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: —or would you do it at a higher amount?

    Mr. Barry Brown: Sometimes, depending, there may be 13 for three or four days, and then if they're at the end of a job or there's weather threatening, rain or whatever, they may go 15 on a day. If a piece of equipment breaks down and everybody is shut down and you have a whole spread of people waiting, as soon as the machine is fixed they'll go to finish the job. So to put it into an actual timeframe is virtually impossible to do.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Would they ever go 16 or 18 hours a day?

    Mr. Barry Brown: Has it happened? I would say yes, it probably has. Could I say for sure? No, but I would assume that it probably does.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Fair enough.

    How would you feel if you or your family member ended up in the hospital, and you're listening to everybody talk; the surgeon is rushing out of the operating room, your family member has to go in, and someone says, “He's really got to get home and get some rest; he's been up for 16 hours”? How would you feel about that person looking after your family member and possibly doing surgery on them?

    Mr. Barry Brown: If I looked at it that way, I would certainly hope that he was in good enough shape to perform the work.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Would you maybe cross your fingers and say a little prayer and hope for the best?

    Mr. Barry Brown: I'm not sure I would do that, but I think I would want to make sure he was in good enough shape to operate.

    But when you talk about construction drivers, they're not driving all the time. They may get to a job site and sit for two or three hours. They're not on-time driving, but it's still counted; they're still on our payroll, so we're paying them. It's not like the long-haul truckers. I can't believe that; it's a different issue altogether that they don't get paid for it. But we pay all the people for.... I'm not arguing with you. I just can't believe that those conditions exist.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: So those hours would be included in it. But during that time it's not as if they're sitting there resting; they're doing something else in those cases.

    Mr. Barry Brown: No. For instance, for me, when they're hauling gravel or asphalt, they sit at the dispatch office and talk and drink coffee, or they get to the job site and they sit and they sit and they drink coffee and they wait until their load is taken and then they go back to work. A normal day would be 13 hours.

    It's the extremes that happen. You can't just shut down an industry because the rule is this and the weather is coming. You need to keep going. That's our problem. We're not—

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I don't think anybody is suggesting shutting down an industry. I think what people are looking at is what's a safe limit for the number of hours they work so that the safety of the driver as well as everybody else on the roads is maintained. I think that's the important factor.

    Do I have time for another one? I can come back if the others want to have a turn now.

    The Chair: You may continue.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: You mentioned the fatigue management program that the construction industry has in place. Could you tell me roughly how many hours are involved with presenting that fatigue management program to drivers and other workers?

Á  (1135)  

    Mr. Barry Brown: I'm not sure. I'll have to call on Jim for that.

    Mr. Jim Facette: There's no real set number of hours. What is required is that the companies must sit down with their employees and other personnel and basically run them through some training. In Alberta usually the provincial government and the industry negotiate an agreement about the training.

    Each province has its own safety association and each province operates under a different set of rules that it has chosen for safety in general for that particular province. Many of the provinces model themselves after the Alberta model in safety in general, and then within it there are particular times, but generally it could require a series of a few hours of safety training and awareness training with the managers on what fatigue is and at what point do you have to take it into consideration and whatnot. It varies.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: As part of that information you're giving to the employees, could you give me some specifics of what would be involved? You're here presenting so I'm assuming that maybe you've been involved in it. Either you've received that training or you've witnessed it being given. You're sitting down with Pete Turner beside you and he's now come onside and you're giving him the fatigue management course.

    Mr. Jim Facette: Often what it entails is a small room, office, or somewhere else with a few people. They generally run a video for them first. It explains what fatigue is, at what point it kicks in, how many hours of sleep you generally need for the work required, and that kind of thing. Then they might go through some written work, like you would in any other course, whether it's math or anything else. There's usually a set number of hours or different types of training you need to do before you are actually considered to be certified in fatigue management, and that could vary by jurisdiction. Basically, it's a classroom setting of some kind.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Would you have a copy of the manual you use, or whatever you use for this program, and a copy of the video that is used? Is that available?

    Mr. Jim Facette: It is available. I don't have it with me, but I could make it available to the committee, no problem. I'd be happy to.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Okay. Just out of curiosity, I'd like to see exactly what's involved with it.

    That's all for now.

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    Monsieur Harvey.

[Translation]

    Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi--Le Fjord, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

    I would like to talk a little bit with Mr. Turner. Je suis certain qu'il savait exactement ce qu'il disait.

    Since we live in a country that is quite immense indeed—we could always compare it to the United States—if there were a change aimed at setting standards that are a better fit with human nature, do you think that managing this would be feasible, given the distances to be covered, the hours of work, etc.? How would you see us reconciling a maximum that would perhaps be a little bit more...

[English]

    Mr. Peter Turner: The industry has done this over and over and over again. Take a look at the way Manitoulin Transport has set it up. They do trailer to trailer. Their drivers go no more than four hours away. They go from Ottawa to North Bay, they switch, they move all the freight off. The guy picks up the trailer and runs up the next four hours, to Cochrane or to wherever he's going. Companies are doing this in the States. We're no different from the States. They still have long distances to travel. UPS does a wonderful job in doing trailer switches, and so does Yellow Transportation. A lot of these companies are doing this.

    To me, the cap is 60 hours. There's no reason to go over 60 hours. This is the only industry where it's mandatory that you go 60 hours. They run you right to the limit. You put it at 84 and they're going to run it right to the limit. Guys can't do this for 84 hours a week, 50 weeks out of the year. It can't be done. I've tried it and it doesn't work. I did it long before logbooks were out. We were running these hours. I remember going home and crawling into bed and not waking up for two days. You can't do this. Physically, it's impossible. You could do it for maybe one or two weeks, but there's no way on God's green earth you could do this for 50 weeks out of the year.

    Mr. André Harvey: Merci.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Marcel.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull--Aylmer, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Good morning, Mr. Brown. Good morning, Mr. Facette.

    I just want to understand very clearly your position, or your association's position. You're not debating the hours of work or the hours of driving. What I understand from you is that you want to make sure your industry is exempted from this particular change or this particular rule in regard to driving or working hours, so that you don't lose the prime time of the year.

    We have a situation in the province of Quebec that is a little bit difficult. I can understand the reasons the unions wanted it this way, but the construction industry has a very narrow window of opportunity during the year, and yet in July, at the peak season of construction, by law everything shuts down for two weeks. I can understand it; there are two sides to a coin.

    In your case, what you're actually saying is that whatever they want to do with the long-haul drivers, they can do it. You just want your drivers not to be included in that particular group of workers. What you're saying is that your drivers might be working long hours, but they're not driving long distances. They're basically not fatigued after so many hours in the same way a long-haul driver would be fatigued. Right? Do I understand you?

Á  (1140)  

    Mr. Barry Brown: What you're saying is exactly right. I don't know how long-haul drivers are fatigued, because I don't understand that industry. Yes, we're asking to be exempt from being called a commercial vehicle. By you giving us that exemption, we then don't have that requirement and then weather dependency doesn't become as big a factor. As we're weather dependent, if we get one or two days of rain, we may work a short week that week or we may work a long week. We don't know because we don't know how many days of rain we're going to have, or when we're going to have the rain. It becomes a real problem for us and our people.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: When that exclusion is considered, is it thinkable to put a limit of distance somehow to show that your drivers will not be driving long distances? Is it thinkable that we would say that they travel within a 100-mile radius or something of that sort? Is that thinkable--just to make sure we don't end up with any of your industry's truck drivers doing long hauls?

    Mr. Barry Brown: I guess if the exemption was to say for construction work only. It might be a bit of problem saying 100 miles, only because I don't know where the sites are. But, generally speaking, they are within 100 miles. One problem would be if equipment were to break down on a job that was 200 miles away and had to be brought back to the shop and it was towards the end of the week or the end of the day. For every hour or day that the piece of equipment is broken down, we still need to operate, so our low-bed people or our people who bring it back to the shop would need further than 100 miles. But, generally speaking, yes, the 100 miles would probably--

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: You have to realize that when we look at that exemption, we don't want to end up with somebody hauling steel rods, for example, from Florida to Michigan saying, you can't touch me, I'm in the Construction Association; I'm an employee of one of their members.

    Mr. Barry Brown: We're not looking for that at all. It's mostly hauling earth, gravel, asphalt, or concrete. That's mostly what it is--hauling those products to and from the job site or the pit or wherever they're made

    Mr. Jim Facette: I'd like to add one thing, Mr. Chairman, to your colleague's question. Oftentimes, it's very common that when they're hauling materials, which is the way I think Barry would refer to it in the lingo on the street, they're generally short distances, because that's where their quarries and their pits and their asphalt plants are. In an ideal world, Barry would like his asphalt plants to be right next door to the job site, so his costs are down, because transportation of his materials is one of the greatest costs, aside from labour, that he carries when he's doing a job. The shorter the haul, the more advantageous it is for him. That's one of the key components of putting together their bids. Oftentimes, Barry will have portable asphalt plants, where they tear down, build up, very close to the site. The closer the quarry is, the cheaper it is to haul. The cheaper the aggregate is on the bid, the quicker the work gets done. It's more advantageous to have a shorter haul as an issue rather than have a longer haul. The longer haul for these guys costs them a whole lot more money.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Monsieur Laframboise.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Forgive me for being late. CAW-Quebec was holding an event with regard to the closing of the Boisbriand plant. My first question is for the CAW representatives.

    I have looked at your brief and I see that you paint a true picture of the situation of the trucking industry throughout Canada. The deregulation that was brought about by the Conservatives in 1987, that was pursued by the Liberals and, finally, that was supported by the Canadian Alliance, has been such that, unfortunately, it is the truckers who have borne the brunt of the pressures in the end. Indeed, the per kilometre rates they are getting today are within a few cents of what they were getting in 1990-1991-1992. By deregulating the sector and thus increasing competition, today, virtually anyone can obtain his license and there are a lot more independent truckers. The result of this is that the industry is today at its very lowest. There are no new truckers coming in to replace those who are leaving. Young people are not interested in trucking.

    I can understand that for bulk hauling you want to have longer hours for your truckers. You are suffering from an under-supply of truckers. But if there were available manpower, theoretically, your trucks could run night and day and you would simply have to change drivers. The problem is that there are not enough available truckers. That is the result of deregulation.

    It is clear that the Liberal government will not adopt regulations in this area. The horrible result of this is that in order to compensate for this lack, people are working longer and suffering from fatigue; work has become more dangerous because we are demanding more of truckers.

    Since the very beginning, in other words since December, when the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Teamsters Union tabled with the committee an agreement proposal between the union and a portion of the industry, I can simply not believe what has happened. Why were the Teamsters ready to sign this agreement while in the same breath they were telling us that they found these hours of work unreasonable, stating all the while that they felt virtually obligated to sign this agreement? I find this unbelievable. And we, the members of the opposition, are the ones who opposed this.

    All the minister wanted was that the committee unanimously agree to ratify this proposal and that it become the new standard. That was the situation in December. I would simply like to hear from the CAW representatives their impressions with regard to the attitude of the Teamsters and of the Canadian Trucking Alliance.

Á  (1145)  

[English]

    Mr. Dave Tilley: Quite frankly, I don't understand the Teamsters' attitude. The only thing I can say is you'll have to talk to them. We were absolutely astounded when they did a total about-face.

    I suppose the Teamsters' union have some sort of reason for doing that, but I haven't had any dialogue with them about it, nor were we consulted. The Canadian Trucking Alliance just doesn't consult us on anything. You'll have to speak to Mr. Bradley as to why they've taken that position.

    Our position has been the same ever since we've become involved in this. The hours are certainly too long in any proposal to extend them. We would certainly be opposed to that. There are just too many hours out there now, and it's getting to a critical point.

    I don't know whether I've answered your question or not, but in terms of the Teamsters, I just don't know.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: I wanted to hear your impression and you have given it to me, but it is clear that we do not have the same understanding of the situation. I would like to know if you were present last week at the famous meeting of the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators, or CCMTA, during which the recommendations were finally drafted. The CAA, an organization aimed in principle at defending the interests of motorists, of which I am one, was present. The CAA is a member of the Council and it sits on the board.

    Do you also sit on the board? Are you among its resource-organizations?

[English]

    Mr. Dave Tilley: We have an associate membership with the CCMTA, and the reason we took that was to get invited to some of these forums. We were invited to the last one, which was in the Yukon, but there was very little discussion, as I understand—we didn't attend, by the way—on the hours of service.

    Interestingly enough, we did attend a meeting that Transport Canada had along with other people who had membership in the CCMTA here in Ottawa. The thing we found interesting about it was they said, “We have the policy paper and the recommendations are in there; we're going to talk about virtually everything else other than the meat of the issue; we won't have any discussions on what the proposed hours are”, and Mr. Orrbine made it quite clear that even should somebody raise the 14-hour day or the 36-hour reset, it is not going to be discussed at this meeting. All we want to talk about is the peripheral issues--should we cross this “t”, dot this “i”?

    Quite frankly, we just found it a colossal waste of time. I don't know why we came up there to do that. We thought we were actually going to have some debate about whether it should be 14, 13, 36, or 46 hours. But we spent the day there, in any event. It was two days long. We spent one day and then left, because when we looked at the agenda for the next day, there was nothing there that we felt we could have any input in. So we didn't participate in the second day.

Á  (1150)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: I am very happy with your answer because last week, the CAA seemed to be very aware of the Department of Transport officials' discussions on hours of work and even took it upon itself to defend the research documents that had been tabled. You, who are directly involved in the industry and who represent the workers, have certainly not sat in on the same meetings as the CAA, that represents motorists. I was very disappointed to see the CAA defend these research reports, given that it is supposed to be aware of the dangers of fatigue.

    You are telling us today that you did not participate in the discussions. This is typical of the Liberal government. Everyone must be clear on this. It talks to those with whom it is sure it will come to an agreement with. It first determines which parties share its views, as was the case with the CAA, which last week pulled out all of the research work that had been done, singing the praises of the work accomplished in this area by the government of Canada and by the Department of Transport and voicing its complete trust in them. You who represent 250,000 workers in the industry...

    Is that the right number? How many workers do you represent?

[English]

    Mr. Dave Tilley: We represent approximately 16,000 in road transport. Our organization has 230,000 members. It's made up of everyone from auto workers to airline people, and so on.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: Fine. But I am astounded that you are not invited to participate in these discussions on hours of work.

    I will put the same question to the Canadian Construction Association. Was your association invited by the CCMTA to take part in the discussions with regard to hours of work?

    Mr. Jim Facette: Our association was only invited to participate in discussions relating to other issues. But not necessarily to make representations with regard to... [Editor's Note: Inaudible] ...official. I spoke with Mr. Orrbine and I asked him if there was a possibility that there be a specific part for us, the CCA, indicating that we play a unique role in the industry and that we are different from the other industries in the field. There has been nothing else. In our view, it is the provinces that should be adopting such rules through legislation. Such rules are worthless if the provinces do not adopt them. If, for example, the province of Alberta refused and wished to put in place rules covering its own territory, then it could do so. We are not talking at this stage about a bill, but about national regulations. There is however a movement afoot, with participation from the provinces, aimed at establishing rules that would be the same throughout Canada, with perhaps some variations from province to province. Generally speaking, there is a will on the part of the provinces to put in place common rules, whether you are talking about Alberta or about Nova Scotia.

    My answer therefore would be no, not necessarily. But, yes, I have spoken with Mr. Orrbine and other officials about our positions. Thus far, they are not reflected in the rules proposed here.

Á  (1155)  

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: I have another question for you. If the manpower were more readily available, in other words if there were more truckers available and you were able to recruit the necessary manpower, would that change your philosophy as to hours of work?

[English]

    Mr. Barry Brown: I could probably respond to that. Would it change our policy or our thoughts on it? No. It's the drivers, the employees, who are saying they don't want that.

    Some people have tried to work with shorter hours, running with a requirement of so many hours on and so many hours off. What ends up happening in our industry to make it work... Oftentimes we're in what I call rural locations. We're not within easy access of somebody else; a lot of our work is not in an urban centre.

    That means that if we had extra drivers to take over, some drivers would work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and would do nothing for Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and the other drivers would drive. What happens in that case is that the ones who are sitting there are wondering why they can't get any more hours. Our work is very short; it's only six months or five months. In my province it's only about five months. So they are then saying they can't make enough money, that we're limiting their employment.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: Very well.

    Your members are independent truckers. Most of them own their own truck. Is that what you are telling me?

    Mr. Jim Facette: That is not necessarily the case. It depends on the province. There are some provinces, such as Manitoba, where the truckers work for Barry. The trucks belong to Barry, to Maple Leaf Construction Ltd., and not to the individual truckers. It depends on the province, but, usually, the truck belongs to whatever construction company it happens to be.

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: I also have a question for Mr. Turner.

    What do you think of the work of the famous Canadian Council that, from what I see, chose the people it wanted to speak with? Have you followed the CCMTA's deliberations as well as its recommendations?

[English]

    Mr. Peter Turner: My contact with Mr. Orrbine was that I would be notified of the next meeting. I'm appalled that I wasn't. I find that very disrespectful for Mr. Orrbine to have done this to me. The CCMTA is just another far reach of the CTA dictating what the truck drivers have to do and not allowing the transportation companies to take responsibility for their actions.

    I would like to comment on your question about the Teamsters. I have here 500 names, and over 40 of them are from Teamsters members. They are appalled, they are ticked, because the Teamsters' president made an agreement without going to its membership and the membership is ticked. They are totally upset with their leadership.

    We are now starting to get the membership of the Teamsters onside, because they don't want this. They want more money, fewer hours, or at least to get paid for what they're doing. So what the Teamsters leadership did is completely different from what the membership wants.

    And from the people I've talked to, the Teamsters here in Ottawa, who are at Loeb's, Purolator, UPS, National Grocers--they're all signing my petition. They're saying no, we want our boys to count, so they're signing my petition on this. And what the leadership is saying is totally different from what I've done by going out to the truck stops and talking to the drivers. When I show them that they're only going to get one day off a week, they're saying no, no, no, because right now they have the option to have three days off if they wish, or they can work the 10-hour days for six, which is 10 hours per day for six days. The way the new regulation is written they only get one day off, and it's just not enough time.

    I was talking to a guy from Mill Creek Motor Freight yesterday, when I was on my way down to the 730 truck stop to pick these petitions up. He told me, “I run till I get tired and then I quit. I take a couple of months off and then I go get another job with another truck company. And I run until I get tired and then I quit.”

    This is why we have a high turnover in this industry. It's because the companies will run you into the ground, you can't think straight, you lose you temper. That's why truck drivers have bad attitudes. When you're running as hard as you do and you're tired, you can't keep control.

    So we all have this mental problem. The way I look at it is it's taken me over a year and a half to get rid of my anger, because when people screwed me over I got angry and I got violent. It's just the nature of the beast. You can only take so much abuse from shippers and receivers. I've had to call cops on receivers because they'd refuse to sign my bill. To me that constitutes theft, so I would call a cop in and say I wanted them charged with grand theft.

    Now I have to deal with the wrath from the companies to the...the one guy I did that to in High River, I had to go through five load brokers before I finally figured out who had that load. So the main company, TransX, got it, the five other load brokers took their cut from it, and then I got left showing up on Tuesday in High River, Alberta, when the thing was supposed to be there for Friday, 8 a.m., guaranteed.

    So I got the wrath for that one. And I mean I got the wrath. I had my daughter with me. The guy was verbally abusive. He wanted to punch my lights out, the whole bit. I'm going, “Hey buddy, I loaded it Saturday”.

  (1200)  

    The Chair: Time is way over for this one, so we'll call Paul Szabo for the next round.

    Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Mr. Turner, is your safety and the safety of others who are on the road more important than anything else?

    Mr. Peter Turner: Definitely.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Do you know when you are tired and incapable of safely doing your job while driving?

    Mr. Peter Turner: Sometimes.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: You have related a story where you apparently fell asleep while you were doing a long haul. At that time, were you aware of the number of hours you had driven, or maybe you could tell us what was the series of hours leading up to that particular trip where you fell asleep? How many consecutive hours or days were you driving?

    Mr. Peter Turner: Well, because I'd be running in the U.S., I'd have to run under U.S. regulations. So I would drive my 10-hour shift and then take time to shower and all that stuff, and then go to sleep. It would be a 12-hour day in total. I would sleep maybe seven or eight hours and then get up and go again.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: This incident occurred during a normal trip?

    Mr. Peter Turner: Yes, it really did. We had run through some very bad weather a couple of nights prior.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Even when you're doing just 12 hours and getting 8 hours of sleep between a shift, you still fell asleep?

    Mr. Peter Turner: Yes, because you can't regulate when you go to sleep. You can't say, okay, I'm working 12 hours, and now I'm going to sleep. I have to go bang, and sleep here, sleep for 8 hours, head up, and then start driving again. There's no time....

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Now, I don't know whether or not this is the norm. I'm not sure whether this happens often or not, whether a driver operating a 12-hour shift with say 7 hours of sleep between shifts can still fall asleep. It appears that even 12 hours a day, followed by a 7-hour sleep, is still too much driving for you.

    Mr. Peter Turner: For me, personally, or for everybody?

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Well, I can only speak about the details you've given us. I can only speculate—

    Mr. Peter Turner: Personally, there were days I could drive for 13 hours and there were days I couldn't. It all depends on the day.

    You've got to take into account that it's weather related. When you're running through a snowstorm and you can only see 12 feet in front of you, you still have to move that load. You still have to drive through that blinding snow. That takes a lot more concentration and a lot more effort than it would be if it were a sunny day or a clear, moonlit night.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: What were the conditions on this particular day, in this particular incident?

    Mr. Peter Turner: The night prior to it, running through the Carolinas and Washington, D.C., it was raining all night. We ran into some really heavy fog where I was down to maybe 10 to 15 miles per hour, driving through fog. That night, I had pulled over and I had gone to bed at midnight.

    I got up at about 7:30 or 8 the next morning. I went in with my wife. We had breakfast; we had lunch. I showered and all that stuff. A couple of hours later, we were out moving again. The incident happened at about one o'clock in the afternoon.

  (1205)  

    Mr. Paul Szabo: You said you went to bed at around midnight.

    Mr. Peter Turner: Yes.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: You got up at 7:30 a.m. to 8 a.m., had breakfast, and a couple of hours later you were on the road. So maybe you weren't actually driving for a period of 10 hours. You had 10 hours out of the cab.

    Mr. Peter Turner: Yes.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Okay. I guess the point is that it appears that even if the rules were that nobody drives more than 12 hours a day and nobody gets less than 7 hours of sleep between any shift, it's a risk not only to the driver but also to others on the road. You're an example of that. I think you know when you're tired, because you said you can drive 12 or 13 hours.

    Mr. Peter Turner: Yes.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: You didn't go beyond that. You know what your limit is, and yet you actually did it. You didn't remember what in fact your limits were. It seems that, somehow, what motivated you was not the safety issue but rather that you had to do something with regard to the job. That was more important than your safety and the safety of other people.

    Mr. Peter Turner: Yes. That's why I got out of the business.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Okay. I have one last question, Mr. Chairman.

    Could any of you--whoever is the principal spokesperson here--tell me right now what the CTA's position is, and what it's proposal to this committee has been, with regard to truckers' hours?

    Mr. Dave Tilley: Were they not the ones who brought this bill forward?

    Mr. Paul Szabo: There is no bill. There's no government proposal. There's no nothing. This committee said truckers' hours and related safety and auxiliary matters are issues we should look into. We've asked for witnesses, and you are one of them.

    CTA appeared before us. They obviously have a position. They represent a lot of trucking people and driver issues. Their position--on behalf of a good part of the industry--is pretty critical, I think.

    Are any of you aware of what CTA proposed to this committee?

    Mr. Dave Tilley: I'm not aware of what they proposed to the committee, but my understanding is that they support the policy paper that CCMTA has put forward. They support a 14-hour day, including 14 hours that could be all driving. My understanding is they support reducing the current 48-hour reset to 36 hours.

    Mr. Peter Turner: That's exactly the CTA's position on this. It's all for it.

    Let me clarify. The CTA represents the companies; it does not represent drivers, none of the drivers in this country. It represents the trucking companies.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Today's Ottawa Citizen says that 85% reject new trucker regulations in reference to how the federal government is going to abandon its plan. Well, there is no plan. It says truckers could be expected to drive a staggering 84 hours a week.

    Is it your understanding that someone is proposing drivers be able to drive for 84 hours a week?

    Mr. Peter Turner: Isn't that the proposal?

    Mr. Dave Tilley: I understand that the reset would have this result. If you take the 48-hour reset and reduce it to 36, the potential exists for a driver to work 84 hours in a 7-day period legally.

    Mr. Paul Szabo: Thank you.

    The Chair: The chair recognizes Mr. Shepherd.

    Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): I have a number of questions. Mr. Turner, as you told your story about long hauls and fatigue, another thing occurred to me. If drivers are willing to cheat on their logs and so forth, what else are they willing to do to entertain themselves? Is substance abuse a big factor in trucking?

    Mr. Peter Turner: No. Now that there's drug testing, I have a stack three inches thick of things I cannot take, including in Canada any medicine with codeine in it. If I take it, go into the United States and get into an accident, I will be charged with substance abuse, even if I've taken Aspirin or Tylenol with codeine. I could be charged with substance abuse because that codeine will show up in a blood test.

    It's almost as strict as the Olympics. Truck drivers can't get away with this type of abuse; it's just not tolerated. There's random sampling. When a company is thinking of hiring you, the testing is done immediately. You don't get hired until you've passed that drug test.

    The message is slowly getting out. Some guys are probably getting around it somehow. As for substance abuse, the answer is no. You just can't afford to take the chance. Your licence will be yanked in a heartbeat if you're found out.

  (1210)  

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: Mr. Brown, you were arguing for exemptions. It's always difficult to do this with legislation; as soon as you give one exemption, another bunch of people show up to ask for one who have the same kinds of problems with a few little differences.

    I'm still not certain why you feel you need this exemption. Has the current regulatory regime created economic hardship for your industry?

    Mr. Barry Brown: To answer your question, they are currently under federal regulation, as I understand it. Then the provinces...I won't say spin it, but they do what they want with it.

    In provinces such as mine, the federal regulations are taken exactly, to a T. And yes, this has created some problems. In other provinces, such as Alberta, they write their own regulations. They haven't exactly got exemptions from the federal regulations, but the rules are certainly different and things are okay.

    It's a concern that a number of provinces are trying to harmonize their rules, working towards a standard that would be the same whether you're in Alberta or Nova Scotia or wherever. My construction company is mobile. It's on wheels. I can go to Alberta if I want to work. That's why they're trying to get the same set of regulations throughout the country.

    In a number of areas and situations, it has hurt. If the weather is nice and there are no time constraints, it's not an issue because we don't hit these numbers, but when there are, we need the exceptions.

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: To reiterate, your concern is that everyone will emulate the highest standard, which would then create a problem. It would be the worst of all worlds, with the highest standard being imposed, the provinces subscribing to the higher standards of the federal regulations.

    Mr. Barry Brown: Exactly. Our equipment right now is under the regulation governing commercial vehicles. If you come up with a new rule, I will be regulated by it. If an exemption could be given for what I call construction materials--and I don't mean hauling them long distances; it could be limited to 100 miles, or not out of the province, or any number of things--it would help the industry work its way through this very problem.

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: So give me an example of a day in the life, where a trucker is stopped because of rain or something and has to sit there and twiddle his thumbs, presumably, for hours on end. We're counting that as logged-on time, and your issue is he should continue to have more time available to him. Is twiddling your thumbs the same as sleeping? That is the question.

    Mr. Barry Brown: I guess that's sort of my argument. I'm not an expert, so I don't know if it's considered to be that, but I think it is. It's certainly not driving-down-the-road time, where your attention has to be 100% on what you're doing. That's where our concern and our problems lie.

    If we're in a rural operation and it rains on Monday and Tuesday, those guys sit there. They're on my payroll, and by regulation they're working. If it clears up on Wednesday and I want to go Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to get the job finished that I would have normally done from Monday to Friday, I can't because they've logged in the hours really doing nothing. In some cases, they've been fishing. If some of my guys are in the north, they'll fish for a day or two waiting for it to clear up. There's nothing I can do about it. But when they want to go, they can't. They're caught.

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: So the issue is really the payment mechanism, which a number of other groups have mentioned. Most of the long-haul truckers are paid by the haul to go from point A to point B, whereas your people are paid on a salary basis.

    Mr. Barry Brown: They're paid by the hour. That's correct.

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: So they get paid whether they're hauling or not.

  (1215)  

    Mr. Barry Brown: Yes, and that's the issue. It isn't how many hours of driving they have; it's the on-duty hours that really trigger us and cause us problems.

    The same thing holds true when a piece of machinery breaks down and my low-bed operator has to go out and pick it up. He may have been around the shop waiting to repair something for six or eight hours that day. Then he has to go out to pick up the piece of equipment that's two hours away. It may take him one to four hours to load it because it has broken down, and then another two or three hours to drive back.

    In that example, he's really only driving for two to four hours. He may have logged a 15- or 16-hour day on my payroll, but I can't do it under these conditions. That's where the concern comes in. Because we are seasonal, I can't afford to wait until Monday or tomorrow to get that piece of equipment. Every hour I'm down is money out of my pocket.

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: I don't know who can answer this, but a number of people have suggested that all of these trucks be fitted with equipment that allows us to track them. I understand that a lot of long-haul trucks are tracked like that now. Does anybody have any idea what the total cost to the industry would be to require all trucks to have this equipment on them?

    Mr. Barry Brown: Sorry, I don't.

    Mr. Peter Turner: The cost would be minimal. Right now, with Caterpillar, Detroit, Mack, and Volvo, this stuff is already in the mainframe of their computers. They already get a printout on this. When I had my Caterpillar, I'd take it in and they would put it on a dynamometer that would tell them how the engine was running and how much horsepower it had. The guy in Chicago, Illinois, would read it. They knew when I shifted, how I shifted, when the truck was shut down. All this stuff is already in the mainframe.

    These mainframes are big computers, and there is room left over if the industry...it's already there. You'd just need to get the engine manufacturers to say, “We want the customer, or the DOT or MOT, to be able to access this, so please put an extra plug in”. The technology is there, so it wouldn't cost a whole lot more to do this.

    Mr. Barry Brown: If you want a reply from me, I think it would be extremely expensive for the construction industry because a lot of our equipment is not new. We have older equipment from the late 80s. If you don't have that—

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: Your argument is that you're exempt anyway.

    Mr. Barry Brown: I know, but you were asking.... Did I hear you say “exempt”? Thank you very much.

    The Chair: Bev.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Mr. Brown, sorry to pick on you, but I have a question.

    It's the weekend and you get up at 10 a.m. You and the family decide to go to the beach and have a picnic, and it's great. You get home and 10 p.m. rolls around. Do you still go to sleep that night at your usual time of 10 p.m. or 11 p.m., after being up at 10 in the morning?

    Mr. Barry Brown: Yes, usually my day starts at 4:30 a.m.—

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: No, no, this is your weekend.

    Mr. Barry Brown: In the summer, my weekend is work. In the winter—

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Okay, but you must... I find it hard to believe you don't spend some time relaxing and going out with the family.

    Mr. Barry Brown: Not in the summer.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Never? Do you go out with the family, get up at say 10 a.m., go out and have a good day, just relaxing? You're not heavy-duty into work; you're just having a relaxing day. Do you still go to bed at 10 p.m. or 11 p.m. after being up all day? I give you a 12-hour day, okay, and I give you until 10 p.m. Would you go to bed then?

  (1220)  

    Mr. Barry Brown: I guess if I were tired, yes.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: You haven't spent a heavy-duty day driving. You have pretty much sat around and maybe twiddled your thumbs, having a good day—

    M. Barry Brown: I guess it depends on—

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: —but your body still got tired. Is that a fair statement, that you would still go to bed at the same time, even though you weren't out working or driving?

    Mr. Barry Brown: Sure, yes.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: From my perspective, from the different studies I've read on fatigue and from the witnesses we've had, I recognize that there are periods of time when you can put in a couple of days of extra time, but if it's done on a regular basis, the body can't handle it, because all of our bodies are pretty much the same, with a little bit of give and take. People get tired. So from a safety perspective, and as someone who's on the highway often, I want to know that people out there haven't been driving five, six days a week, for 13, 14, or 15 hours, because my safety is at risk as well.

    As I've said to other witnesses, I have the advantage in my job that if I can't make that trip because I'm tired or whatever, I have someone else who comes with me and that person drives. We switch off. I know that may not happen in the trucking industry and the construction industry.

    And I recognize your point about weather, that you're trying to get as much time into work as you can. I wonder what other industries out there are in the same situation, where weather is a major factor and they try to fit in as much time as they can.

    A voice: Farmers.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes, farmers come into question.

    Do you know where the greatest number of accidents, an increase in accidents, is now?

    Mr. Barry Brown: No, I don't.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: The farming industry. There's a study just released on the farming industry in Manitoba and elsewhere. One of the major reasons is that they're trying to fit the time in according to the season and weather conditions.

    Mr. Barry Brown: I think also they don't take safety into account. They don't have safety programs. They don't have any of that other—

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: With all due respect, there are major safety programs out there. There's no question there needs to be more, but there are major safety programs out there. There's the Manitoba farm safety program, and I know it exists in Saskatchewan, and probably other places as well.

    Don't get me wrong. I understand your predicament in trying to get the work done. But when you ask what do you do when that driver has been around and then they have to go and do the work, I'd say possibly get another driver.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx, Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Mr. Facette.

    Mr. Jim Facette: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Just to put your mind somewhat at ease, remember one thing. The construction driver of the aggregate truck or the liquid-asphalt truck probably hasn't been driving 13 hours straight.

    The second thing is that one of the realities of limiting the hours and making it more difficult is that you may not be able to get a second driver to that point. Under new rules, a service truck may drive out to a job site to fix a piece of machinery and they're going to be stuck there. They can't get home because they're back in the shop all day long, perhaps, working in the shop, and all of a sudden they have to go somewhere at the eleventh hour. They've logged all this so-called “on-duty time” and now they have to get there. You can't get a second driver there to relieve them.

    So what I'm suggesting is that relief in construction is a little more difficult than relief in long-haul trucking.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I'm not suggesting for a second—

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Madam Desjarlais, your time is up, I'm afraid.

    Monsieur Laframboise, s'il vous plaît.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: My question is for either Mr. Poirier or Mr. Cave.

    You are the union representatives of a local, namely Local 4268. I thought I had detected, on the part of the Canadian Trucking Alliance, a terrible fear of an imbalance between trucking and rail. Competition between the two appears to be ferocious. If there were an adjustment, do you believe... We have examples. What astounds me in all of this, is that it seems that we are being told that no analyses or studies have been done, that the study on fatigue was not sufficiently in-depth—

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Excuse me, Mr. Laframboise. Mr. Brown and Mr. Facette told us in the beginning, while you were perhaps away, that they would have to leave shortly. They must leave now. Do you have any questions for them?

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: No. That is all right.

    The Vice-chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Thank you. Merci beaucoup, messieurs. Bon retour.

    Forgive me, Mr. Laframboise.

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: One thing worries me, Mr. Poirier and Mr. Cave. If we had the same hours as those they have in the United States... We were told that no research work had been done, but there is nevertheless the situation the Americans have. The United States are our neighbour. The Liberals opposite follow the Americans like puppies follow... This is a daily reality. But it nevertheless remains that we can count on regulations that are in place on the other side of the border.

    You have made a recommendation in your report and you have compared the hours in Canada and those in the United States. If we adopted the American system as to hours of service, would that threaten the trucking industry in Canada vis-à-vis rail?

    Mr. Poirier and Mr. Cave, do you have sufficient discussions with the employers, with the bosses, to know if the trucking industry would truly be in danger if we adopted standards similar to those they have in the United States?

  (1225)  

[English]

    Mr. Len Poirier (President, CAW Local 4268; President, CAW Road Transportation Council, Canadian Auto Workers Union): I don't think the industry would be at risk at all. I think what would be at risk is maybe the labour cost to the companies here. We'd be more on an even playing field, running the same kinds of hours.

    One thing that hasn't really been mentioned a lot here is the race to the bottom of the workers in the industry, and part of that was perceived because of owner-operators. A lot are lured to the industry by the pie-in-the-sky of owning their own truck and being their own boss. Once they're into the industry, they'll do whatever it takes to try to keep themselves going.

    You made reference to farmers. I'm from southern Ontario. What do farmers do after they've lost their farm? They buy a truck and they go out on the road. Many of them have the same mindset. They feel they can be their own boss: I'm from a farm, the farm's gone, so I'm in a truck.

    I think we should be more concerned about aligning ourselves with the U.S. Maybe we recognize the fact that we're a little bit further apart, that we know it would be too much of a wish for us to have exactly the same hours because of the pressure from the corporations. A lot of these corporations don't see borders. They don't see boundaries. They're multinational companies. Why should our workers not be treated as fairly as the drivers in the U.S.? I think it's not an issue that we should be any different.

    The other reason people run the long hours is that they want to try to provide for their family.

    A question was asked: Do you not understand when you're fatigued enough? Well, if you're fatigued and you've been running long hours, studies say you're somewhat similar to being a person under the influence. If you're under the influence, do you think you're under the influence? Most of the time you don't; you believe you're fine. It's taken society years to come around to recognize that driving while you're under the influence of alcohol is not a thing you should do. I don't think we should be letting fatigued guys try to make self-determinations of whether they're fatigued or not.

[Translation]

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: Thank you. I will conclude with a comment. The trucking industry in the United States has adapted to the hours of work. The truckers have not disappeared from the industry. People have continued to adjust. The working conditions are better and the salaries have at last been adjusted. Most truckers are intermediaries between the producer and the seller, be it a store or other. That is reality; we have to adjust. Rail has not cannibalized trucking in the United States. That is what I am having difficulty with and I am happy that you are here in order to make Liberal MPs understand the situation.

    People believe that there will be a crisis. You are right. It is the multinationals that are profiting from the low rate you are giving them. They are making a profit and they are passing it on to their shareholders who receive their dividends every three months. They are abusing you. We must readjust the standard and ensure that it is respected. The industry has been deregulated here in Canada, and anyone can get a license. This is why everyone must respect the standard. There should be a requirement to install computers in each and every truck to ensure that everyone respects the standard. If such were the case, the industry would have to adapt and the working conditions and pay would be better. It is not true that rail will gobble up trucking.

    That is what everyone is hesitant about. The industry seems to be trying to convince the government that if hours of service were reduced, it would cost more and trucking would no longer be competitive compared with rail. I believe that all of that will adjust itself once everyone is required to respect the rules. At present, no one is respecting the rules. I continue to be surprised to hear Liberal MPs ask questions about logbooks. Everyone knows that people cheat with their logbooks. That is the reality in Canada. It brings a smile to the faces of truckers. You are right, Mr. Turner. They think that logbooks are kept properly. Come on now! No one still believes that. Those who follow the industry closely know that there is a lot of juggling that goes on with hours of service. Luckily, there are unions that protect the workers, because otherwise, the situation would be much worse.

    Yes, Mr. Poirier.

  (1230)  

[English]

    Mr. Len Poirier: I'd like to respond—we didn't get the opportunity—to Mr. Shepherd's question about the costs. So much of what's happened in the industry is just-in-time and immediate response from the driver—where the load is. The cost of putting these things in conjunction with the communications equipment is very minimal. Most trucks now run...the bigger corporations run satellite systems. Those satellite systems can easily be tied to the truck and the operating hours. There's technology out there that can fingerprint the truck and the operator with that equipment.

    Mr. Nigel Cave (Unit Chairperson, Local 4268, Canadian Auto Workers Union): I work for Penske Logistics, and we actually have the Qualcomm, the American system. We're in the automotive industry, so everything has to be tracked. It also has the OmniTrax system in the computer system, and when we sign on we have to put in our ID number. As soon as we start up, we punch in our ID number. It tells what time we started in the morning, and as soon as the truck starts rolling, it starts telling you how fast it's rolling. When you do any stops, it tells your sudden stops. If you're tailing anyone...it also will tell if we're speeding and so on; we can reply, and it stays in the system for six months. So anytime a company wants to go back and check on us to see if we've been running within the rules, they can go back within six months and check all that.

    It's $3,500 U.S. to install and a couple of hundred dollars per truck. We're a U.S. company, but we're based in Canada too—Penske Logistics—and we easily have over, I'd say, 15,000 units throughout Canada and the U.S., and they're all equipped with it.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Thank you.

    May I ask you a question on that? How would it fit in with an owner-operator or a broker—call it what you want—not necessarily somebody who drives for a company, but rather an owner who drives his own rig?

    Mr. Nigel Cave: I know there's a company called North American Van Lines, which hauls automotive parts for us. They're a broker for us, and they haul Triple Crown trailers for us. They're owner-operators, and they have to pay, if I'm correct, half of the $3,500 U.S. installation charge because they're on Qualcomm, which is U.S., and not Cancom, which is Canadian. At the end, when they're finished, they get their half back if they decide to leave the company. The unit is taken out of the truck, it's put underneath the seat, and the computer part is put up on the dash.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Mr. Turner

    Mr. Peter Turner: Yes, as he says, there's more than just a satellite. There's a thing called a K Deck, which sits on the dash. It's not linked to any satellites or anything, but it's linked directly to the mainframe of the computer. I believe it was only around $800 Canadian to have that installed. It's just a plug. It plugs into the mainframe of the computer, but you have to put in an ID number. You have to put in where you're going and what time you got there—that kind of thing.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): So that can be had for about $800?

    Mr. Peter Turner: From $800 to $1,000—somewhere in that area. But as I said, the mainframe computers already have this. All they have to do is put a plug on a computer so that MOT or DOT, or the customer, just have to have a palm-hand thing and boom, it's hooked in. So it's already there.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Thank you.

    I understand this is the end of the questions, unless Mrs. Desjarlais has some more.

    That's it?

    Thank you.

    Mr. Alex Shepherd: I have just one closing comment. When you said OmniTrax, it sort of twigged on me, because the firefighters have been arguing that for the tracking of hazardous waste and other hazardous material in Canada, all the trucking systems should be on OmniTrax so that we know at any one particular time where these goods are.

    The other issue that comes to my mind is security. There may well be some other benefits to some of these suggestions.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Thank you.

    Yes, Mr. Poirier.

  (1235)  

    Mr. Len Poirier: I have one last thing, if I may. A lot of the time, the perception is that truck drivers are just sitting in the truck driving the whole time. The way the industry has changed so dramatically, we're responsible for the loading and unloading of the freight, and sometimes the verification of the freight.

    A lot of plants are now equipped, and it's the driver's responsibility to use a forklift inside the plant and position the freight on the truck properly so that when you get the just-in-time deliveries to the auto plants or wherever, it comes off in that stream. Or there's hand bombing of loads, which quite often still happens.

    So there is physical fatigue as well. If you read the ads for the new trucks from the manufacturers, they say it's like sitting in your living-room chair. Well, you're not sitting in your living-room chair for 12 hours.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): I'll tell you very honestly, one of my suggestions at one time was that when the committee travelled, members should travel in trucks. However, the Canadian Alliance shut us down as far as travelling is concerned. So for the ones who have never had the pleasure of riding in one of your trucks, the wait continues.

    Thank you very much.

    Do you have one more comment, Mr. Turner?

    Mr. Peter Turner: I have just one more comment. The Canadian driver is being forced to work in the United States, where 90% of these warehouses are driver assist. Therefore, they are being forced to either fork out $100 U.S. out of their pocket to get the truck unloaded or they have to do it manually.

    When you have to throw 44,000 pounds of freight and then get in your truck and drive again, that's where a lot of the fatigue comes from.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Marcel Proulx): Thank you very much for appearing in front of the committee. We appreciate your coming. Have a safe return.

    Thank you.