AANR Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS, NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES AUTOCHTONES, DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DU GRAND NORD ET DES RESSOURCES NATURELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, March 27, 2001

• 1108

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.)): I'd like to call the meeting to order, please.

The agenda for Tuesday, March 27, 2001, is pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), an inquiry into the crisis in aboriginal housing. We decided last year in committee that we would focus on the community of Chisasibi and then go on to take in a national picture of the housing crisis in Canada in the aboriginal community.

We have before us as witnesses today Chief Violet Pachanos, Dr. Robert Harris, who is the director of public health with the Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay, and Normand Hawkins from the technical group we wanted to add to the discussion on the construction of units, as agreed at the last meeting.

Mr. St-Julien.

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—James Bay—Nunavik, Lib.): Madam Chair, I'd like to mention that Ms. Pachanos is going to be late and that Grand Chief Ted Moses will speak on her behalf. We apologize, but I'd like to have the committee's unanimous consent to have the Grand Chief of the James Bay Crees, Ted Moses, replace Ms. Pachanos at the beginning of this hearing. We apologize, but could we get all members to agree with this change of plans?

• 1110

[English]

The Chair: Do we have unanimous consent?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: All right. The accepted mode is that we give ten minutes total for the witnesses to speak. I see four people there, so we'll have to try to make the presentations as concise as we can, because that will give more opportunity for the members to direct specific questions to the people and we can take more of the discussion time through the questions. So I would strongly urge that presentations be as short as possible, so that we can give fair time to everyone who would like to speak to the committee today.

Grand Chief Ted Moses.

Grand Chief Ted Moses (Grand Council of the Crees, Eeyou Istchee): Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee. Thank you for allowing me to speak this morning. I especially thank Mr. Guy St-Julien, our member for Abitibi, James Bay, and Nunavut, for speaking to the committee on this matter and for helping to make this hearing possible. I will try to be as brief and concise as I can.

We are waiting for the Chief of Chisasibi to arrive, but in the event that she doesn't, we will have her statement read out.

I would like to inform the members of the committee that all the chiefs, with the exception of one, are present in the audience with us. This issue is a very important one; it's a high priority issue and affects each of our communities in Eeyou Istchee.

I would also like to inform the members of the committee of a very distinguished person in our audience, Dr. Erica Daez, who has been involved with indigenous issues in Geneva at the United Nations. She's been chairing the working group of the indigenous peoples. She's been a member of the subcommission on human rights, as well as being involved at the diplomatic level for the Government of Greece. So we are very honoured to have her in our midst. Thank you.

The Grand Council of the Crees, the Cree Regional Authority, is the freely elected representative of the Eeyous of James Bay, Quebec, the traditional homeland that we call Eeyou Istchee, or the people's land. In 1975 we signed the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement as an out-of-court settlement in our dispute over our rights and the La Grande hydroelectric complex of 1975. Our rights in the agreement are protected by the Constitution of Canada as treaty rights. It was not negotiated under the 1986 federal land claims policy and is not well served by a department that tries to reduce it to that present policy.

The agreement was in return for the pre-approval of the La Grande project and for the acceptance of a process by which future development in the territory would be regulated. The Crees were promised employment, participation in resource development, protection of our way of life, even in the context of development, and guarantees that our communities would develop according to our needs. Community development was to be based on needs and funded through arrangements with the governments of Canada and Quebec, which both governments were committed by law to make.

Programs and special initiatives for the development of the Cree communities were to have been crafted, with our involvement, to meet the needs of the communities as they evolved. In this regard the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs has failed to implement section 28.8 of the agreement, the community and economic development committee, which was the policy engine to guide the

...establishment, expansion, operation and effectiveness of government economic development, community development and other programs related to the economic and social development of the Cree people.

Two approaches were taken in the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. First, it was guaranteed in the agreement, as also mentioned in the 1974 letter from then Minister of Indian Affairs Judd Buchanan, that the Crees would not be prejudiced on the basis of agreement rights in continuing to enjoy programs available to all aboriginal peoples in Canada. Second, it was agreed that the Government of Canada programs and services applied to the Cree communities would be based on the needs of the communities.

• 1115

Just as in the cases of education and health, not now tied to federal limits, also mentioned in the 1974 minister's letter, the intention of the agreement was not to restrict the programs to the levels set out in national programs, but to guarantee that eligibility for such programs would not be lost because of the more extensive agreement obligations of government in these areas, or, as the minister put it, “...without discrimination...because of rights, benefits or privileges arising from the Final Agreement....”

In spite of the untimely death at the hands of Indian Affairs of the community and economic development committee in 1978, the following year we signed an agreement respecting the housing infrastructure plan for the Cree communities of Quebec. This five-year plan was not an implementation of section 28 of the treaty. It was rather based on an assessment done by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and approved by Treasury Board of the five-year community needs for housing and infrastructure. There were subsequent problems in its implementation, as the department had not in fact secured the funding to fulfil its obligations in the first years of the housing agreement.

By 1980 a gastroenteritis epidemic hit the communities, and several elders and children died because of the lack of clean water and proper sanitation facilities that had been called for in the treaty. The federal review of the implementation of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement recommended the completion of the sanitary infrastructure in the communities and called for a Department of Regional Economic Expansion initiative or special efforts by the department and other relevant departments. No such initiatives have yet been undertaken.

The point of this history is to say that the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has taken the position that the Cree communities are restricted to what is available to other communities and that housing is not in the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. The truth is that the agreement calls on the government to address the development needs of the Cree communities in a manner that is based on cooperation with the Cree Regional Authority. The government itself has initiated and recommended special programs to address these needs in the past. However, when the housing agreement under which we built 500 houses and sewer and water systems expired in 1984, Canada refused to renegotiate its renewal.

We have about 2,450 housing units throughout the nine communities to house our population of 13,000 people. You can see immediately that this works out to 5.2 people per house on average. Indian Affairs uses an overall benchmark of 4 people per unit to measure community overcrowding. We decided to carry out a door-to-door analysis in each community to obtain a more precise picture. The results were shocking. Of our housing units, 60% are overcrowded, based on the Canadian standard of one person, one room. Our two largest communities are the worst: Mistissini at 79% overcrowded and Chisasibi at 62%. The rest of the communities are not much better. Other Indian communities in Quebec average 4 persons per unit, the Inuit of Nunavik average 4.1 persons per unit, and Quebeckers average 2.5.

I would not want anyone to interpret my remarks to mean that other native communities' housing needs should be ignored. Their statistics are bad, ours are worse, and all needs should be addressed in a timely manner. The Cree communities need a total of 1,400 units now to resolve the overcrowding. Another 250 units are required to replace very old or substandard housing. In addition, we will require 600 more units over the next five years to accommodate estimated new family formations. We need to build 2,250 units over the next five years. At our current level of assistance from DIAND and CMHC, we might be able to meet 20% of that need.

If we are to meet this need, it means our communities will also have to almost double in size. We need major expansions to our existing infrastructure of internal roads and water and sewer systems. Finally, our existing housing units need to be renovated. Age, overcrowding, and our harsh environment have taken their toll, along with insufficient funding for renovation over the years.

• 1120

If we are to resolve this situation, we must come up with appropriate housing programs that increase private home ownership, maximize the value-added benefits to the communities, and take care of the needs of those with lower incomes. Part of the solution must be to increase Cree employment.

In Region 10, the Quebec administrative unit that covers northern Quebec from the southern limit of the Cree hunting territories, the Crees are approximately 30% of the potential workforce. Their representation in the regional population is expected to increase as the young come of working age and as the resident non-aboriginal population gradually declines.

However, of the 3,350 jobs in the forestry industry in the territory, the Crees represent around 5% of the workforce, or 180 full-time jobs or part-time equivalents. In mining, the territorial workforce is 1,400, of which 5%—79 people—are Crees, all employed at one mine. In hydroelectricity, the Crees represent approximately only 1%, or seven full-time workers.

The barriers to Cree employment are significant and include language barriers, difficulties in union and trade certification, lack of training opportunities, and racial discrimination.

We have recently been working with Human Resources Development Canada to elaborate a plan to improve Cree access to territorial development. The plan is based on job-targeted training and industry-specific coordinators to create opportunities for Cree employment. The long-term goal is for equitable Cree participation in all sectors, consistent with the commitments of the 1975 treaty.

Our plan is to work to put into place the means for Crees to be a significant part of the regional labour force. However, this will take time. In the short term we must build more houses in the communities. The Cree houses are overcrowded at levels that exceed those of many other aboriginal communities. A program to relieve the growing human problems would create hope for employment and a reasonable way of life.

I also point out to you that since 1998 the Cree-Naskapi Commission has been focusing on the growing problem in the Cree community. It stated, and I quote:

Evidence presented to the 1988 Special Hearings clearly shows that the Cree and Naskapi communities do not have adequate resources to develop community infrastructure, community housing and capital projects. The main source of the problem is insufficient federal funding.

In 1996 it also stated, and I quote:

The Cree and Naskapi communities continue to suffer the consequences of inadequate housing. Previous Commission reports highlighted housing as a major concern. The supply of houses has always fallen, and continues to fall, far short of the demand.

In its last report in 2000 it added, and I quote:

The need to construct new houses, replace and renovate existing houses continue to be pressing issues as the backlog on housing needs increases in the Cree communities.

The James Bay and Northern Quebec Native Claims Settlement Act affirms the agreement. It states in part, and I quote, “Parliament and the Government of Canada recognize and affirm a special responsibility for the said Cree and Inuit.”

This gives you parliamentarians a special responsibility in addition to that of government. This recognition is unique in Canadian legislation. We have fought to defend our right to choose to remain in Canada. However, the Canada we choose must be a Canada that makes a place for us, as was promised in 1975.

In this regard, in 1997 the Minister of Indian Affairs, Ron Irwin, set up a negotiation process with former Grand Chief Matthew Coon Come to see to the implementation of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement and to establish a new relationship that recognizes the permanent nature of the treaty. Minister Irwin agreed to negotiate on housing as part of the process. Minister Stewart began this process, and now Minister Nault has decided to continue with this initiative. It is designed to be a special process to meet the needs of the Cree people in a unique way as part of the evolution of our James Bay region.

The 1975 agreement was a special Canada-Quebec initiative concerning the development of the region. It was not meant to be limited to what happens elsewhere but is a unique experiment designed to break with the tragic history of aboriginal peoples in Canada.

• 1125

In conclusion, Madame Chair and members of the committee, I ask the committee to consider supporting two initiatives to make recommendations to the House to this effect. Number one is that immediate measures be taken to resolve the human problems created in the Cree communities by insufficient and dangerous housing conditions and housing shortages. Number two is that immediate measures be taken by Human Resources Development Canada to set up the programs required to open the door to equitable participation by the Crees in employment opportunities created by development in the James Bay territory.

Thank you for this opportunity to speak to you today.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Grand Chief Moses.

I'm going to have to ask for direction from the committee because we are now 14 minutes into the presentation and we still have three people who wish to speak to us. The other unanimous consent that I would seek is that most of the documents we received for these presentations are in English only, and we have tried to keep them from being distributed. I understand some of them are being translated, but because of the large volume we were not able to get them back from translation for distribution in French also.

I would ask for direction from the committee members on two things. One is how we want to deal with the questioning, or the witnesses' presentations versus the questioning by the committee members and the distribution of the documents.

Mr. St. Julien.

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Madam Chair, I am prepared to have the documents that have not been translated distributed. In fact, there are two documents in French. One is on the housing and health situation, and the other is a motion by the Grand Council of the Crees. If we all agree, we can accept the other documents.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Marceau.

[Translation]

Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ): Madam Chair, I think that the people who are before us today deserve that we hear them. So I am prepared to allow them more time, even if it means that we, in turn, should have more time to question them all, because they came a long way.

Also, I am prepared to have the documents distributed, but I want us to discuss that further later. This is the first meeting I attend, and it doesn't deal with natural resources, but with the development of aboriginal peoples. I believe it would be an insult to refuse the documents tabled by our witnesses because they haven't been translated.

Having said that, I want us to revisit the matter, because I won't agree to this all the time. There is a problem somewhere, and I'd like to discuss it further. I want it to be very clear, I'm making an exception out of respect for our distinguished guests and witnesses, but this can't happen every time.

A voice: Agreed.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.): I'd like to support my colleague. I think he is perfectly right. I was going to say the same thing; I totally agree with him. We should not make it a habit. We agreed on a way to operate, and we should revisit this matter. However, given the circumstances, I'm also prepared to agree.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Part of the problem stems from the volume of documents we've received, and we only decided Thursday what our witness participation was going to be like. I thank you for your understanding.

Mr. Vellacott, please.

Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, Canadian Alliance): My question is in respect to the amount of time allotted for each of the remaining witnesses. Did you have some suggestion as to what amount it would be? I have to depart about 12, actually, and I wanted to get some questions in.

The Chair: That's why I tried to make the witnesses aware that we had a very limited time. Two people have already told me they have to leave at noon, so I would like to get on with the witness presentations. I would hope that they do about three minutes each, and they can perhaps discuss the rest of their presentation during the question-and-answer session.

I would also like to welcome Chief Violet Pachanos to the meeting. I believe I have her next on the list to do her presentation. If I can ask you to stick to the three minutes so I can get everyone in and so everyone has a chance to speak to the committee....

• 1130

Chief.

Chief Violet Pachanos (Chisasibi Indian Band): Good morning, everybody, and thank you. I apologize for being late. For your information, there are only two of us who are going to speak, Dr. Harris and me.

Thank you to the chairperson, to the members, and in particular to the member of Parliament, Guy St-Julien, for giving us the time to come before you and present our case.

We're here specifically to speak on the effect of housing conditions on health in the Cree community of Chisasibi in northern Quebec.

Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of her/himself and his/her family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care.

Chisasibi is the largest of the nine Cree communities of eastern James Bay. Between 1979 and 1980, the entire village of Chisasibi, which was Fort George at that time, was relocated to where it is now on the mainland, and this was at the mouth of the La Grande River. The move was related to the construction of the La Grande hydro project. Because the flow of the La Grande river doubled, there were fears that erosion would put the population of Fort George Island at risk.

During the move, 210 housing units suffered structural damage. At the new site, 90 new houses were built, but a recent evaluation of those units found them to be of substandard quality. This is a quote from a resident of Chisasibi:

After relocating it was very cold, very mouldy. You could smell it, and mice came in. The sewage was blocking. You could smell it, and the house became worse. The sickness came.

The sewage system that was put in place at relocation consisted of septic tanks and not a pipe system, which has contributed to the present situation. By mid-1993 physicians had noted a growing number of complaints about health problems made worse by the old houses, those that had been moved from the island, and those that had been built at the time of relocation. The physicians wrote many letters recommending an improvement in the housing conditions to the housing department of the Cree Nation of Chisasibi.

By 1998 the Cree Nation of Chisasibi found that there were no funds available to carry out the housing renovations that were so urgently needed. They requested that the Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay write a report on housing and health in Chisasibi. A qualitative study on housing and health was carried out and became a key part of the December 1998 claim to the federal government. The claim was for the reimbursement of funds we spent, and Dr. Harris will elaborate a bit more on the study I'm talking about here.

I have a synopsis of the 1998 qualitative research study on housing and health in Chisasibi. The study used qualitative research methods, including reviews of medical charts. Fourteen key informant interviews were conducted in the Cree language or in English and the field notes were analysed with the NUD*IST computer program. An independent engineering firm made a report on the condition of the houses.

The objective was to determine whether poor housing conditions existed in Chisasibi, whether there are poor health outcomes in Chisasibi, and whether there was a link between the poor housing conditions and the poor health.

• 1135

The people living in the “sick” houses reported housing problems and health problems identical to those reported in the world literature—and I'll give you some quotes from the report, starting with odours and strong smells:

We started to have problems about the septic tank. The smell was very bad, sometimes we couldn't sleep in the house because of the smell. We went to our daughter in her apartment.... Sometimes we couldn't eat (because) of the bad smell. The smell of moulds is building up when water leaks into the walls.

On mould and fungus:

In the washroom, the vent, they keep fixing it, but it doesn't work. All the dampness stays and it's black all over the bathtub and fungus everywhere. It is not improving at all. When somebody takes a shower, all the water goes down to the basement through the hole in the floor between the bathtub and the toilet bowl. The floor in the bathroom is all rotten, it might fall down in the basement one day.

On sewage backup:

Sometimes, the water from the sewage was backing up and the smell was very bad. One time, the sewage was all over the basement floor. Not only water, there was toilet paper and shit.

—sorry, but there's no other word for it.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Chief Violet Pachanos: On asthma, one man said, “My wife started to have asthma after they moved to the old house.”

On wheezing:

I used to have headaches, very bad colds and wheezed all the time...the basement which I felt affected my colds and wheezing.

On nausea:

My wife was OK, but she didn't like the smell. She felt like vomiting. It was very bad for us, I don't know how many years.

Dry air, poor ventilation, dust, and high electrical bills are other concerns.

The people also reported improvement in their health when the moved away from the “sick” houses:

There is a difference if we go to my camp in the bush for two weeks. We don't have any problems; everything seems to be back to normal. No colds, no asthma, nobody has a bleeding nose, no sneezing. Maybe because my house over there is bigger, much bigger.

And:

We stayed away in Montreal for three years. The air (in the house) is more fresh. Back in the old house, the problems start again. If we go out in the bush for two weeks, my baby was doing fine, my wife also; my children and I were fine. Back, entering the house, the same.

We are in a crisis in housing in Chisasibi. There is a shortage of units, overcrowding, and a large percentage of “sick” houses. Overcrowding has many negative side effects that are well documented in the scientific literature. This was replicated in the Chisasibi housing and health study, which found, among other negative effects, that overcrowded households report more problems with family violence and alcohol.

Dr. John O'Neil, professor and the director of the Northern Health Research Unit, Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba, analysed the data of the Chisasibi housing and health survey. He concluded:

This study has demonstrated that the health effects of inadequate housing in Chisasibi are in need of urgent attention.

At the present time the number we have for new housing needs is about 586 units. This means we need to urgently provide new units to alleviate overcrowding and to replace the “sick” houses. Various approaches are being studied, from home ownership to specialized housing for the elderly and single families, to rental housing geared to low-income families, and to social housing.

Finally, I would like to refer the committee to the reports of the Cree-Naskapi Commission that have been filed with Parliament since 1986. These reports have made frequent references to the housing crisis in the Cree communities. However, the recommendations of the commission have gone without action by government or by this committee. The Cree-Naskapi Commission was created by Parliament to monitor the situation in the Cree communities.

So after all is said, Chisasibi, along with the other Cree communities, is in a crisis situation in housing. We are here today to ask for government to act on its promises so we can contribute to society in a fair and equitable manner. We hope future generations will not have to go through the same situation and can look to the future with hope for a better life. We are prepared to sit down with the responsible people and to start working together to find solutions and implement recommendations.

• 1140

Thank you for your time.

The Chair: Thank you, Chief Pachanos.

A voice: [Inaudible—Editor]...continue?

The Chair: Yes, but very briefly, because I know some of the members have to go and they want to ask questions.

[Translation]

Dr Robert Harris-Giraldo (Director of public health, Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay): Madam Chair, Mr. St-Julien, thank you for giving me an opportunity to testify today.

[English]

I will show you some pictures of mould on the inside of the houses. It looks very innocent, but there are gasses being released.

I also have pictures of water damage from Chisasibi. They're not too clear, but you can see where it's black from the top. Below the floor, in the basement, all the black stuff is all mould, not just dirt.

When these houses were built in Chisasibi, only half of the insulation was put in. There were poor building conditions, so you can also see more water damage. When you open the walls, all you see in the back is black, and you get a very strong smell.

Again, it's hard to see, but I have another photo that shows the black at the top and around the toilet. All the humid places all fill up with mould.

At the entrances to the houses, there's black mould. The ceiling....

Basically, what I'm here to tell you is that Chisasibi does have poor health outcomes. We have respiratory health worse than the rest of Canada, as seen by hospitalizations, by hospital stays, by death rates. There are about ten times as many years of life lost. Young children have a higher incidence of reactive airway disease, a type of asthma. In studies in Norway and Australia, it has been associated with moulds in houses.

Going back to our engineering report of two years ago, we saw the mould. It wasn't too difficult to measure it. They just had to scrape it off. Penicillium and aspergillus are two types of moulds that grow in our community, and they are associated with problems elsewhere.

The houses have a musty odour, water damage, high indoor humidity, limited ventilation, and few extractor fans. There are high mite allergen levels—and mites are the little things that live all over the house and cause allergies. The relative humidity of the houses was between 50% and 80%, while normal would be around 30%. And we have overcrowding, with 7.2 persons per house, which is the highest in all of Quebec.

Mould is in the news right now. Aspergillus is a big thing in Montreal. They closed the Royal Victoria Hospital operating room two weeks ago because of moulds that are the same as the ones that grew in Chisasibi. Patients worry about it. We have people who have had liver transplants and kidney transplants, and who are on immunosuppressant drugs. They are living in these homes, and this fungus can cause problems.

This is a picture of the director of public health of Montreal with the media. I'm afraid I might be with the media soon in the same position, if there's a problem. Well, there are problems, but that's....

If we look at the literature review, it shows a strong association between moulds, poor housing conditions, and poor health. With home dampness, you get moulds. Why do fungi hurt you? They produce volatile compounds, such as alcohols, aldehydes, and ketones. You breathe them in, and they cause respiratory problems like asthma, rhinitis—that's a nose irritation—alveolitis, which gives you wheezing, and other allergies. More importantly, decreased immunity is experienced, so children cannot fight infections as well. And you get headaches, eye and throat irritation, and fatigue. These things are well documented. You have the literature review in your documents.

In November, I got a phone call from a woman who gave me permission to show her picture. She asked me to go to her house. They were going to fix the ceiling. You can't see any water damage in the picture, but she had it. When they opened the ceiling up, they stopped because they wanted to call their supervisors.

I went to her house at 9 p.m. that evening. She told me that when she goes to take a bath, she goes in with her shampoo, her soap, and her two puffers, because she starts wheezing after five minutes and she has to use her puffers. When she's out in the bush and at camp, she never wheezes. She has a stove there, she can take control of her house, she heats it up, and there are no moulds in there.

When I took a closer look in her house, there was a strong smell, and it was full of mould. There was high humidity causing moulds. They're the same types of moulds that are causing problems in Royal Victoria Hospital and in places around Canada.

One poor little girl—I also got permission to show her picture—has been trying to get out of their house for three years. I've written three letters already. These are my friends at the housing department, but they don't have any houses to give.

• 1145

She faces decreased immunity. Every time she gets allergies, she gets a little rash. Because she has decreased immunity, it spreads to her whole body. Fungi are not the only factor, remember that, but they increase her chances by about two times, according to our study and other studies. Is it a big deal to have

[Translation]

students intoxicated by the air in their school.

[English]

That's in La Roncière. They're wearing masks, and they notice irritation

[Translation]

of the eyes, sinusitis, headaches, bronchitis and asthma.

[English]

Basically, they're wearing those masks because they're taking it seriously. The school is closed. As director of public health, I would like to close those houses, but I don't know where the people are going to live.

Looking at the literature review, we have a strong association again. Mites cause allergies and worsen asthma. Fungi cause mycotoxins. They are poisons. For example, when the workers have come in during building renovations, they have had renal failure, kidney failure, and encephalopathy, which is brain damage. New studies show the mycotoxins could be human carcinogens.

So mould is a serious thing, and it's all over the place. At the Royal Victoria, he had a mask too, when he was...that was on the front page of the Gazette. They were cleaning out the operating room. Another one was on the front page—that's twice in a row: “Fungus Linked to Renovation” and “Montreal Mould Found in Damp Buildings”. It talks about schools that have been closed in the Montreal area. This is not anybody's imagination.

I'd like to introduce to the committee someone we call “Julie” for purposes of confidentiality. She told me she wants to speak out, though, and that she doesn't mind. Ms. Marion Sam-Cox is here, and if you would like to ask her questions afterward, you may. She came all the way here because she wanted to tell her story.

She is in her sixties. I saw her because I am also a family physician at Chisasibi. She was going to the clinic a lot, but then she got a new house and she never came back. I thought she was out of town, but when she came back to her old house, she again kept coming to the clinic.

I went to her chart, and I did a chart review as part of our study. Basically, between February 1993 and February 1994, when she was in an old house, she was coming to the emergency room about eighteen times per year in a crisis. When she went to her new house, she only came in four times in that year—because you still get colds, you still get sick. After she went back to her old house, she went back to eight visits per year. You'll ask why it was eight and not back to eighteen. She told us she was just as sick as she was before she moved to her new house, but she didn't bother going to the clinic as often because she knew it wouldn't make a difference. They couldn't do anything there. The real problem was the house.

Did it affect Ms. Sam-Cox? She told us:

Many times I could not go to work due to colds, headache and asthma. One time I had a cold for one whole year.

I used to have headaches, very bad colds and wheezed all the time. It seems I was always in poor health throughout years since living in the old house. We also had a lot of problems with dust and moulds.

...in my new house, I have less colds and less headaches. I only use my puffer when I have bad colds and I find that my asthma acts up only when I have colds.

The Cree Nation in Chisasibi asked us to go house to house to do a survey. We did it, and it was community-based and participatory. We had the youths there, and we developed a questionnaire with the people there. We covered 80% of the households, which is quite good for a study. Dr. John O'Neil, who is the director of the Northern Health Research Unit at the University of Manitoba, worked with us on the data analysis, and he did a report that you have in your documents. There were seven pages of data, so it was very comprehensive.

Basically, we surveyed 435 houses, with 2,689 people. We still had a high average of 6.25 people per house.

One of the things we don't think about is bathrooms, but think about when you have guests and you have two extra people sharing your bathroom. It's a shock to the system. Here, there are six people sharing one bathroom. That's a lot higher than the Canadian average.

About 50 people, or 2% of the people, didn't have a room. They just slept wherever, like in the living room. And according to the occupancy standards in Quebec, 41% of the homes were overcrowded.

Is this problem going to get better? About 48% of the people are under the age of 20. Imagine what it will be like in ten years, when they need homes. It is a young population, with 70% under the age of 30.

I don't want to bore you with this, but basically 68% of the people reported structural problems and 43% of the households reported moulds. Studies show that when people report moulds and you then go measure them, there is a good correlation, so it's valid.

In terms of ventilation, we noticed that 36% of windows cannot be opened. They're boarded-up windows. There are problems with moulds in 42% of them, and 53% do not have air exchangers, which means it's a recipe for problems. If you have an air exchanger, you have your moulds—62% don't have an air exchanger. If you don't have mould problems, only 23% have that problem.

• 1150

Then there's the other stereotype—do people enjoy this? Eighty-one percent are not satisfied—I just had to put that out. Fifty-three percent of the people are okay, they don't feel overcrowded, but 25% to 45% of people do feel overcrowded, and it's exactly the same as the numbers, so there's a good correlation.

Twenty-three percent of households reported drug and alcohol problems, 50% social problems, 9% problems with violence. That is strongly related to overcrowding. Let's see if I can sort this one out. Where people feel very crowded, 48% of those houses have at least one of those social problems. Where they don't feel overcrowded, only 20% have a problem. So overcrowding has a strong relationship with those social problems. That's another study with the same thing, 38% versus 22%, crowded and uncrowded.

So you get a higher chance of something with the odds ratio—just to explain that. Let's look at the numbers. If you have mould in your house, you have a 1.6 times greater chance of having acute health problems. For example, if you're in a mouldy house, you have a 1.4 times greater chance of having colds, 1.9 of having headaches, twice the chance of having sore throats, 1.9 times a runny nose, 1.9 times nosebleeds, and twice the chance of having ear infections. It doesn't seem like much, but statistically those are high numbers. Significance starts way below .05, so these are very strong associations. For most other studies, they're happy with a lot less. The effect is real.

Regarding chronic health problems, as you notice, asthma is not of statistical significance—that's a diagnosis, you either have asthma or not. But if you are in a mouldy house, you have a 1.7 times greater chance of wheezing, which is the problem, and twice the chance of having any chronic health problems. For some highlights, look at heavy coughs...3.4 times increased chance of runny nose. We see a lot of sinus problems in the clinic, three times increased risk. Coughing up mucus shows a 2.2 increased chance. It's also shown in the world literature, as here, that you have a 1.9 increased chance of having depression if you live in a mouldy house.

Chief Pachanos shared with me that after a year and a half of putting in claims, there was a letter from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. I read the four pages of it and I thought, gee, I guess I'm not that smart, I don't understand what they're saying. Then I showed it to a friend of mine who works in the federal government, and he told me, don't worry, that's a typical delaying tactic. Basically, after a year and a half of studying the file, they want to retrace the documented history of this file. I'm telling you, we don't need the history; the present is right here in the study.

We've developed a good relationship with Monsieur St-Julien. He went to Chisasibi before the election, he saw the houses, he visited, and that's why he made this commitment to help us. Because when you visit—and it would be nice if you would visit us—you see the reality. That's why we're here, just before April 1.

Again, I remind you of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights—I'm glad Dr. Daez is there—that everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and his family, and that includes housing, among other things. It is a right to have adequate standards.

My conclusions reveal that because of all the adverse effects of poor housing and health, this situation at Chisasibi is a public health emergency—but I've been saying this for two years. Substandard housing leads to substandard health. Until this housing is brought up to Canadian standards, all the medical interventions to improve poor health are an exercise in futility. People are just going around and around like a hampster in a wheel.

In 1998 the United Nations said Canada was the country with the highest living standards in the world, but we're not number one in equity; we're number ten. We have a large equity gap, and that large gap between the rich and the poor is most evident in the poor housing conditions of the whole Canadian aboriginal population and, in this case, the Cree Nation of Chisasibi.

I believe this problem began as a social issue; it became the health issue I'm presenting to you, but it's more than that. It's a moral issue. I think it's a matter of equity, justice, and fundamental human rights.

• 1155

Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you, Dr. Harris-Giraldo.

We still have Mr. Normand Hawkins with his intervention. Again, this doesn't leave very much time for the committee members to ask questions. So I would again like to mention that we would like to keep it....

Mr. Normand Hawkins (Representative, Technical Group Inc.): Madam Chair, I'm not making a presentation today. I'm just here as technical backup if the committee has any questions.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

I would then like to go to a round of questioning. Mr. Vellacott, you have seven minutes.

Mr. Maurice Vellacott: After reading the background material and having heard our witnesses, I think without doubt it's apparent to all that it's an appalling situation.

But one thing intrigues and interests me in terms of trying to get at the whole issue of there never seeming to be enough dollars, and that's always the case, it seems, with government programs. Recently when I was on my reserve, an entrepreneurial individual had a proposal in respect of private dollars coming in to make up some of the shortfall. I thought it was a very reasonable idea. He's actually on the council there. But somehow under the Indian Act that was stonewalled and blocked from occurring. Getting some additional funding might have alleviated some of the problems there. Then there should be proper monitoring so you don't have tradespeople coming in and just doing it quickly and taking off and leaving everybody else with the problems.

On page 4 of Ted's presentation it mentions:

If we are to resolve this situation we must come up with appropriate housing programs that increase private home ownership, maximize the value added employment benefits to the communities and take care of the needs of those with lower incomes. Part of the solution must be to increase Cree employment.

I'm very interested, because if we're saying that only 20% are going to be covered by whatever funding is provided by the feds, what do you have in mind in terms of this whole component of private home ownership? Why do you think that's part of the solution?

Grand Chief Ted Moses: I think that because of the interest and willingness of individuals to go into private home ownership, there is a need for social housing. There are people there who have a very low income and who need the social housing.

I think in the last 25 years we have developed somewhat. Some employment has been generated, and there are people who have an income. However, the employment opportunities are very much saturated. New housing initiatives bring about employment in all of the Cree communities. That somehow takes care of the rental arrears. It also provides an opportunity for people to look more independently at a house of their own, as a matter of pride and of ownership for themselves. It's not new. In some of the communities there are some units that are for private ownership or rent to own, which people are looking at, particularly those people who have a steady income and can surely benefit from the program. We see that as an opportunity to resolve the housing crisis in our Cree communities.

Mr. Maurice Vellacott: As this gentleman explained to me—and it's along the same lines, Mr. Moses—his belief was that it would relieve the pressure on the housing stocks and there could then be houses available for those with a lower income if those having a job could then.... Are there things that stand in the way? I got that impression from him. Are there things that prevent this private ownership in the reserve situation?

Grand Chief Ted Moses: I think the main problem would be the fact that we don't have the infrastructure to build a house. It doesn't make sense in the north to build a house without water and sewage. To think you could somehow build it afterwards—that's not the way to do it.

• 1200

We have to have the proper infrastructure. The government has to provide the necessary funding for the infrastructure.

With regard to the other part of your question, the social housing depends on the viability of the current Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation program, so you have to have a mix with some people who have a regular income and can pay into it. Otherwise, it's not economically viable.

Mr. Maurice Vellacott: I make reference as well to one of the sheets in our documentation here where it talks about the preference between rental and private. Many do prefer private, if they have gainful employment and so on.

I believe part of the answer has to go in the direction of your comment about the infrastructure and so on. You can't just set it up while having to absorb the cost of that along with the cost of the plot of land and the housing itself. I really do believe it needs to go to some degree in that direction, because, obviously, if 20% is all we're going to cover by federal funds.... Even if we beef that up or double it, we're still underfunded. We need to figure out other ways to create some adequate housing stock for people and then relieve some of the pressure for the low-income people as well.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: The other impediment would be that you require ministerial guarantees for the loans on any of the CMHC units, which are often slow in coming. It's difficult to get a mortgage in any of the Cree communities unless it has been arranged with CMHC. So for an individual who wants to build their own house and has to go to a bank or financial institution for such housing, it's an impediment for him. It's almost next to impossible. I think that's largely because of the Indian Act's provision whereby an Indian is exempt from the seizure of their property. I think that's the point the financial institutions find difficult in allowing for this opportunity to—

Mr. Maurice Vellacott: There could be some adjustment made to the Indian Act to open it up.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: That or some kind of arrangement between first nations and financial institutions. I think that here the ministerial guarantees again come into play.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Vellacott. Mr. Godfrey.

[Translation]

Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): First, I'd like to thank my colleague, Mr. St-Julien, for inviting you all. I think you are certainly going to help us get our housing study underway properly.

[English]

Thank you all for coming from such a great distance. I think the presentation was highly effective.

I think, Dr. Harris-Giraldo, we believe you. I don't think you need to doubt the point has been made about the importance of good housing.

So my questions really go more to Mr. Hawkins and Grand Chief Moses. I want to think about the solutions. We started to get into that discussion with Mr. Vellacott. One of the questions I have, which is based on naïveté, is whether the house design in the first place was right. You obviously have very important requirements in terms of the severity of the climate and all the rest of it. Is the design right? Are there alternative ways of giving people adequate housing that may not fall into the way we've been doing business before? That's one issue. Was it bad from the start and it just got worse? Are there ways around that?

The second question is with regard to Grand Chief Moses' point that there are really three levels of housing we're looking at: the first is private ownership, which suggests there is some income that can allow that to take place and that is one way of financing and building and so on; the second is rental; and the third is social housing. Other than just giving whacks of money, do you need different programs for each of those in order to do the job right? Is the existing program of DIAND and CMHC, which will do 20% of the job, a good design—you just need five times as much money—or is that actually not as good as it could be?

• 1205

So those are the two questions. One is on the nature of the housing itself and whether it can be better designed so that we avoid these problems in the future or reduce the cost of those problems, and the second is about whether the way we do business currently through DIAND and CMHC could be done in a better fashion.

Mr. Normand Hawkins: I'm not an engineer; I'm a chartered accountant, but we do have an engineer here who is familiar with the situation. Dr. Handa is a Professor of Engineering at the University of Waterloo.

Mr. John Godfrey: Yes, why don't you join us, Professor.

Professor Vir Handa (Professor of Engineering, University of Waterloo): The houses are designed from old Indian and Northern Affairs house designs, and I think Indian and Northern Affairs uses that particular set of drawings right around the country, even to this day. We have modified it to suit our requirements.

The problem is not the house design; the problem is the overcrowding. The amount of moisture that is generated is completely out of proportion to the ability of the house to resist it. I'll give you a very simple example. The house we live in will probably last 50 years because there is a population of probably three or four. You multiply that three by 50 and you get 150. You take 150 and divide it by 10 and you're down to 15, and that's the fundamental issue. The fundamental issue is we just do not have enough houses. The moisture conditions are going to get worse and not better.

Mr. John Godfrey: But those houses you describe with the—

The Chair: Excuse me, could we just get you to state your name, please, for the record?

Prof. Vir Handa: My name is Vir Handa. I'm a consultant to the Cree. I'm an engineer by training.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Godfrey.

Mr. John Godfrey: I want to make sure I understand this. What you're saying is that the basic Indian and Northern Affairs design, which has been modified around the country but it's your basic house, is okay, provided you don't have more than a certain number of people living in it, because, for example, the moisture remover or I guess the air exchanger—

Prof. Vir Handa: It cannot cope with it. It's not only that, the houses have one bathroom, but for 10 people living in them. The whole set of circumstances is completely different. For us to put more bathrooms into that house we have to increase the cost of the house, and we do not have enough money to do that at the same time.

Furthermore, we do not know which house is going to go to which family at the time because that's done on an allocation basis within the communities themselves.

The Chair: Mr. Godfrey.

Mr. John Godfrey: That's going to be interesting as we look at this in detail in the future. I'm wondering, Chief Moses, whether you can help us a bit with whether what's required is simply a scale-up of the existing way of doing business—that the 20% solution works okay for the 20%—or do we have to do it differently?

Prof. Vir Handa: May I intervene for a second to answer your question.

The other question is with respect to private housing.

Mr. John Godfrey: Yes.

Prof. Vir Handa: It is not only the cost of the house. We have to build infrastructure, and a private housing person in the community will also have to provide the infrastructure himself. So the cost of the house is not only the cost of the house, which already is at time and a half of the cost of a house here, but he also provides that much money to get a lot—

Mr. John Godfrey: Serviced.

Prof. Vir Handa: —that has water and sewers coming in. In my discussions with Indian Affairs, their idea of the lot was, we just put the pipes in and you go away. You cannot do that. You have to build roads. You have to build everything else that goes with that lot—and we do not have adequate funds to do that. For a private person to do that, he would have to build part of the road, all the infrastructure, before he can put his house up.

The Chair: Mr. Godfrey, you have one minute left.

Mr. Moses.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: Yes, thank you.

I think the other consideration that must be taken into account is the fact that where we come from is the far north and there are climatic conditions that are much more severe than in the rest of Canada, which could also be a factor that contributes to the moisture in the house and the build-up of mould.

I think you have to look at the location of where you're building and try to design a house from that perspective. There's no point in trying to build a house.... In my younger days, I saw houses that were built by Indian Affairs in other Cree communities that would normally be built in states like Florida. They were cold, I can tell you that. They had insulation that had fallen down to the level of the floor. That's maybe an extreme example, but certainly the design of the house should take into consideration the region and the northern climatic conditions as well as the people who will be occupying the house.

• 1210

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Marceau.

[Translation]

Mr. Richard Marceau: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank you first for coming here today to make this presentation. I am not an engineer, nor an expert, but I think you don't need to have a PhD in Engineering to see that there is a direct connection between those housing conditions and the health of the people who have to live this way. Anyone seeing the photos you showed us, in particular, the one of the little girl, would find it revolting that such is the effect of living in those houses.

Nevertheless, I have a few questions, since we are talking of dealing with the problem, but without having first determined how much it will cost. For the whole of the Cree Nation, I'd like to know how much money is involved to get these 2,250 units Chief Moses was talking about. How much money do we need for these units, plus the infrastructure which, apparently, is also needed, so that the housing conditions are reasonably up to Canadian standards?

[English]

The Chair: Chief Moses.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: I'm going to ask Norm Hawkins to respond to that question.

The Chair: Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. Normand Hawkins: A little over a year ago we made an estimate of the costs, with the assistance of Dr. Handa and so on. The costs for the entire Cree region of the nine communities are as follows: we're looking at about $281 million in new housing to meet the backlog; about $83 million in infrastructure; another $31.5 million to replace the “sick” houses—pictures of which you've just seen, because the same exists in some other communities as well, not just in Chisasibi—and then about another $31 million for renovations of some of the older houses. We're looking at a total capital cost of $427 million. That's not necessarily an outright disbursement. Usually these houses are supported—about half the cost—by loans from CMHC. So you would take the $281 million and you would need about half of that in loans from CMHC.

Unfortunately, the CMHC program is capped. Right now the Crees' share of what they get from CMHC each year, as Chief Ted Moses reported, really only allows us to meet about 20% of the need.

The CMHC program has to be augmented with additional resources. Private housing would lower that cost somewhat, but right now there are not that many Crees who are in the economic position to pay for their own homes.

The economic conditions have to be improved first. Right now, maybe 15% of the need can be met through private ownership; that's just a guess. Hopefully that would improve as economic conditions improved. Right now, there's a very strong dependency on social housing.

The Chair: Mr. Marceau.

[Translation]

Mr. Richard Marceau: We saw some rather impressive statistics on the young Cree population, and Chief Moses was talking about 2,250 new units over the next five years. This amount of $427 million, is it for the next five years or more, Mr. Hawkins?

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. Normand Hawkins: To answer your question, that is the figure to resolve the current backlog and to meet the estimated new family formation over the next five years. That level of resource would be required to solve the problem over a five-year period.

• 1215

But of course the problem won't end. New family formations will probably continue at the same rate for the next five years, and the five years after that. That's easily ascertainable by looking at the Cree demographics. Dr. Harris-Giraldo mentioned the fact that a very high proportion of the Cree population is under 30, or under 20, and so on.

[Translation]

Mr. Richard Marceau: Among the ones you showed us, are there some which would have to be torn down because it's impossible to try and restore them and if so, how are you going to do it? I was never up there, but I hope I'll visit someday. Would you have to tear down the houses, in some cases, and build new ones so that the existing infrastructure could be used? Even the infrastructure is bad. Would it be better to simply tear everything down and build elsewhere? How would it work?

[English]

Mr. Normand Hawkins: You put your finger on one dilemma that the chief and council in Chisasibi have, that basically the recommendation is to condemn those houses, and we're talking about approximately 179 houses, but there's no place to put those people. You can't have them live in a tent at minus 40 degrees celsius. They don't have the funds to build 180 units right now.

They've tried all kinds of band-aid approaches and do the best they can with what little funds they have, but it doesn't solve the problem. Engineers tell me that once those houses become so infested with this mould, there's no getting rid of it. You just tear it down and burn everything.

So when I talk about renovations, I'm not talking about those houses. That's the replacement figure.

The Chair: I think Chief Violet Pachanos wants to add to the answer.

Chief Violet Pachanos: Yes, that is one of the recommendations, to totally tear down the house and rebuild it. We've done that already. We've done about 50 houses at a cost of about $13 million, and the money we spent was money we got from Hydro-Québec, not from the government funds. We still have many more.

The Chair: All right. Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Martin.

Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all of you for a very interesting briefing on what's obviously a very urgent problem.

I'm a builder by trade. I'm a journeyman carpenter. I understand some of the details you've outlined on the technical side of things.

I am confused, though, from an engineering point of view, how it could just be the volume of moisture that would cause such an adverse reaction. Surely there has to be something wrong with the whole vapour barrier or the structural details that would accommodate their use.

The Chair: Mr. Handa.

Prof. Vir Handa: The houses are designed under R-2000 conditions, basically. In a way, they are overinsulated and not efficient in removing moisture. So the moisture is kept inside the house. We have mechanical means to take it out, being the air exchangers, which are efficient up to a point, but they cannot handle the volume they are getting.

Secondly, in the nature of things, in a crowded house, when the vapour barrier exchanger starts to make noise, it tends to get switched off. So there are all these other problems because of the overcrowding. If we can stop the overcrowding, I think a number of problems will start to disappear.

To answer the other question, we do not have enough infrastructure to build the houses in any case. So any new houses we build by demolishing, which we are doing in pretty near all the communities, are put back on the same infrastructure.

• 1220

Mr. Pat Martin: Getting back to the real crux of the issue, which is to try to build the new units, frankly, I don't find that a staggering amount of money for the needs of the community given the surpluses this government is currently enjoying.

I'm fond of reminding people who come to us with very real social needs that the UI system alone is showing a surplus of $750 million a month—not per year, per month. So meeting the needs of 2,250 units for a total of $427 million is about half the surplus of just that one program alone. So if there were the will, there certainly is the means to undertake this.

Further, though, if there were a five-year program to build a couple of thousand units, what is the skill base within the community for building your own housing? Are you looking at a program to create jobs locally, rather than hiring outside contractors who obviously don't have a sensitivity to the climate or the needs of the community? Is there an undertaking on your part to get the skilled trade developed within your own people?

The Chair: Chief Moses.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: Thank you, Mr. Martin. I'll answer the first part and then attempt to answer the second part.

I'll go back to the fact that this is a problem that started as a result of not maintaining the same level of funding. We used to build houses to the tune of 120 a year when our population was 4,000 or 5,000 less than it is today. It has doubled; 25 years ago, we had a population of 6,500. We foresee it to double in another ten more years, because we have a very young population.

The problem we are talking about now is as a result of inadequate resourcing. Had the same level of funding for 120 units been maintained, I think we'd be talking about a different scale of problem.

As far as the human resources are concerned, they're there. We have heaps and piles of skilled people who have been building houses. The approximately 2,000 units that we have built in Cree communities have all been built by our people. We have carpenters, heavy equipment people, and lots of labourers who are currently looking for employment. We have people in the trades, in plumbing and electricity and ventilation, and people who have gained experience in project management.

For the last 15 years, each community has been building houses with the available moneys they've had.

So they have a wealth of experience, from the paperwork right down to issuing the certificate of completion of work and whoever else is involved in it. When you build houses...if 2,250 units were built over the next five years, think of the amount of employment that would generate and the economic conditions that would bring to the Cree community.

In addition, an important thing to point out is that people like to think the Crees receive a lot of federal funding and that it stays in the Cree community, but that is not the case. My member of Parliament appreciates this, but whatever the Crees receive, I would say approximately 75% of it goes to the region, because we are a consumer, and we do buy services from the Abitibi region. Towns like Val-d'Or, even Montreal, do benefit from it. So it's not an exclusively Cree-aboriginal type of assistance or benefit; it has its spinoffs in other municipalities, particularly in the region.

But it also deals with the employment needs in regard to housing. It provides some employment opportunities and contributes toward the economic conditions of the family in the community, and in turn it is also a positive factor towards collecting rent or rental arrears, that kind of thing.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Mr. St.-Julien.

• 1225

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Thank you, madam Chair.

For me, it's a matter of doing the honourable and fair thing. We have to find solutions to the problems these people, who are our friends and neighbours, are facing. They came here to talk to us. You are not dreaming, you really have before you the chiefs of all the Cree communities in Quebec and in Canada. They come from Chisasibi, Waswanipi, Nemaska, Waskaganish, Eastmain, Wemindji, Whapmagoostui, Mistissini and Oujé-Bougoumou. I have both a comment and a question. All those nice words, all those promises and all those nice theories that have been formulated since 1990 have to translate into action by the government of Canada. It's a matter of the utmost urgency. Even today, I believe some of the people who work for the government departments are like hermits: they don't know what's happening out there, in some Cree communities in Quebec and in Canada.

Those communities are still facing enormous social problems, and I find that pathetic. We have studies to prove it. The Cree- Naskapi Commission has said that the situation in Chisasibi was urgent. This is why Chief Violet Pakanos is here today. And there are similar conditions in all other Cree communities, they face the same social problems. If the government of Canada can give millions of dollars to Canadian museums, millions of dollars to provide housing to the Canadian Armed Forces, I find it strange that officials, who wrote in July 2000 to Chief Violet Pachanos to try and find solutions, cannot, today, solve the problem; I would even go as far as saying that they delay solving it.

My question is for Ms. Pachanos and all the other Cree chiefs, including Mr. Ted Moses. Do you think that officials from all the departments concerned, Health, Public Works and Indian Affairs, should visit the Cree communities of James Bay—either this month or next month—, so that they are immediately made aware of what's going on and start working on finding a solution this year. It's urgent. Do you think the crisis is limited to your community or does it also affect all of James Bay Cree communities?

[English]

The Chair: Chief Pachanos.

Chief Violet Pachanos: To answer your question, yes, they should come up and see for themselves, as you've done to see for yourself what the reality is. Most people don't come, they just hear about it, but they don't believe it. Seeing is believing. So people should come up there and see for themselves.

The Chair: Chief Moses.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: Thank you.

In response to the member of Parliament, yes, definitely, and we invite officials from the different departments, we invite the different ministers, which Mr. St-Julien has referred to. As a matter of fact, we invite the Minister of Indian Affairs to come up and visit the Cree communities, and particularly Chisasibi.

We have been for many years attempting to resolve the issue of housing, only to be told that.... I can say this, because I was at the table that Minister Irwin had set up, then with Jane Stewart, and now Nault, and also on previous occasions where we tried to address the whole housing issue. The response we got was, we don't have a mandate. I said, well, go and get the mandate, Indian Affairs officials.

Mr. Richard Marceau: Who has the mandate?

Grand Chief Ted Moses: A representative of the Department of Indian Affairs who is a part of the negotiating team told us he does not have the mandate to negotiate. Fine, he went and got the mandate. Then the response was, no, we don't have an obligation to provide housing to the Crees, show us where it says so in the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, provide us with documentation, so that we can do something about it.

Then the other response was from CMHC, which said, oh, our program is capped, we have a policy, we cannot provide over and above what you're getting from the current program—which is inadequate and insufficient. So how can we, in trying to assume that responsibility of addressing the issue, do so when the other side, the government side, says, no, we don't have a mandate, or we don't have an obligation, though it is clear in the agreement? I referred to it at the beginning. There is a special responsibility through legislation between the Crees and the Government of Canada. There's no other legislation like it in Canada.

• 1230

Second, in the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, in section 28, you'll find provisions that refer to infrastucture, community development. The whole agreement is founded on the basis of providing opportunities for the Crees, either to continue in their traditional way of life or to join the main stream of the wage economy, and having communities develop according to the way we want them developed.

We've had undertakings from the then Minister of Indian Affairs Judd Buchanan, in the federal letters of undertaking, which go back to 1974 and 1975. In 1985 we concluded the housing agreement with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and CMHC, which calls for a five-year arrangement, renewable before the expiration of the five years.

The Government of Canada at that time made it an obligation that they would address the housing issue, and then they backed off and stepped out of it, claiming they didn't have an obligation or a mandate. This is why we're here today talking about a problem that is of crisis proportions. I call it a time bomb, because that's what it is. We don't know where this will lead to if there is no immediate solution.

The Chair: Monsieur St-Julien, you have a minute and a half.

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Grand Chief Ted Moses, last year you visited Pita Aatami and the Inuit, in Nunavik, and you congratulated them for getting $50 million from both the government of Quebec and the government of Canada, which is $100 million total, to build houses in Nunavik. You were happy and you told me, when you came back, that now, it would be your turn, and you would get the houses you needed for your families, for your children, and so on. You are still waiting.

I am angry at my government which doesn't lift a finger, while agreeing to send money overseas to help solve some problems there. We should start by taking care of our own. You were happy that the Inuit got some money. What are the ministers telling you today? What do they have to say about this emergency plan you proposed years ago? What are you expecting from them? Immediate action?

[English]

Grand Chief Ted Moses: You're absolutely right, Mr. St-Julien, I did go up to Nunavik and I did congratulate my counterpart there for having signed an agreement, a Canada-Quebec agreement, that allowed the Inuit to provide housing in their 16 communities. The rationale given when I raised this with certain ministers was, well, we had an obligation towards the Inuit under the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. My response was, it's the same agreement we signed. We signed the same agreement with the Government of Canada, the Government of Quebec, as the one that was signed by the Inuit of northern Quebec. I said there is no less of an obligation on the part of the government towards the Crees than towards the Inuit to provide housing for them.

We're still waiting. We have no official response, except that we have some documented correspondence, which goes back to just a few weeks ago, March 6, 2001. In response to the letter of the Chief of Chisasibi, dated November 21, 2000, we read

Unfortunately, as we have mentioned at the meeting, there is no established federal government program to deal directly with mold contamination. ... ...your request to the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (DIAND) asking them to revisit your claim in the scope of the health topic.

So this is the kind of.... This is a letter signed by a regional manager, which is the most up-to-date response we've got, telling us that there's no existing program that addresses mould. Maybe it's not a national problem, but it is a problem that is unique to our community, and it is affecting the health of our people.

• 1235

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien: I have a point of order.

[English]

The Chair: We're way over our time limit here, so I'll have to give an opportunity to the Canadian Alliance for the next three-minute round.

Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): No.

The Chair: Okay.

I have Mr. Serré, for the next three minutes.

Mr. Benoît Serré: Madam Chair, I would request that we have a copy of this letter, if the committee agrees.

I certainly would like to thank you for appearing before us on such short notice. I strongly supported Monsieur St-Julien when he requested that we first invite the Cree Nation. We will be meeting with the national council....

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

I hope that doesn't take any time from me, Madam Chair.

You would have to be blind not to agree that there is a national housing crisis, not only within the Cree Nation, but across the country. I have visited many first nations across the country. As a matter of fact, I was in your territory two years in a row hunting caribou, and I can really appreciate the vastness and the weather, which I'm used to, because I'm from northern Ontario. We have many first nations in northern Ontario, and we have major housing problems.

As a statement of principle, I think our government should definitely do more in respect of native housing. If we can spend $500 million for the Toronto waterfront, I think we can spend $500 million for our native housing, regardless of obligation, regardless of treaties, regardless of agreements. I think whether or not we have an obligation under the James Bay agreement is irrelevant. I think we have an obligation as a national government for the well-being of our citizens everywhere in the country.

Having said that, I would hate to throw $500 million into housing projects just to see the problem repeated in 20 years. And I'm a little concerned about the quality of the housing—and that's not particular to first nations communities; I've seen it across the country. I think there's a direct relationship between non-ownership of the house and the maintenance, care, and durability of the house. I see that all over the country. When people are not proprietors, they tend to take less care of their property. And I've seen housing projects, in and out of first nations communities, deteriorate in 10 years. A substantial amount of money is thrown in, very good houses built, and ten years down the road the houses are in very poor condition. And next door, in a native community again, where the houses were owned—perfect condition.

So I don't know how to address that, but I believe we should find a mechanism whereby there would be a benefit, somehow, for people who maintain their houses. I would like your input on that.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: Thank you, Mr. Serré.

I think we need to be innovative in addressing some of these problems. Often programs are established without people knowing the real situation out in the field, out in the Cree communities.

• 1240

I agree to some extent with your assessment of the situation. However, I think, whether you're a well-off income earner or you're on UI or social welfare, you still need a house, particularly where we come from, where temperatures can drop to minus 50 and you cannot have people homeless out in the street. That would be totally unacceptable; it would be inhuman.

Nothing prevents the government or CMHC establishing a rent-to-own program, and I think that might be the missing element. Right now you have social housing, which attempts to address the needs of those less economically privileged groups, and then there is a small group with a desire to build their own housing. But for those who do not have the capital, where they feel that paying regular rent is the route to eventually owning a house, why not? I think that would be one of the solutions to some of the matters you have just raised.

The Chair: Thank you.

I have four names now with three minutes each, and I want to try to fit them all in. I have Mr. Marceau, Mr. Binet, Mr. Chatters, and Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Marceau.

[Translation]

Mr. Richard Marceau: Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Moses, I have a question on your presentation.

It seems to me you said that the housing problem is urgent, but that it's only part of a bigger one, that is the fair participation of the Crees in the economy of Region 10 of Quebec. You mentioned a few barriers, such as the language. I know you only have two minutes to answer, but do you have anything to propose or do you see any opportunities we should explore further, so that we come to a more equitable participation. The Crees represent 30% of the population; they should therefore have 30% of the jobs. It seems only normal to me. You told us you were negotiating with Human Resources Development Canada. Could you give us a few examples of the solutions you'd like to work on. If you can't answer in one minute and a half, maybe you could in another context?

[English]

Grand Chief Ted Moses: Thank you.

We are on the verge of finding an agreement with Human Resources Development Canada. Unfortunately, I think the Department of Indian Affairs intervened, and therefore we were not able to sign, but we were very close. The agreement is so detailed that we were ready to sign it. We attempted to address the availability of opportunities in the north, as you can see. Those opportunities cannot be taken to the fullest benefit by the Crees unless there is the appropriate training.

But also, we're trying to make housing the engine for economic development. Rather than just thinking of it in terms of units and dollars, think of it in terms of the contribution it could make towards the economy. You could have a whole housing program building different parts of the house in the territory, as opposed to buying piecemeal. And yet, at the same time, you can have a greater number of your people working.

There is also the question of sharing of resources. We have development taking place in northern Quebec, and we're the ones who are being shortchanged in this respect. The Government of Quebec and the Government of Canada get full benefit through GST payments and other taxes for development that is taking place in our territory. In the meantime, it's the Crees who are suffering, the Crees who are being made poor, while governments get full benefit.

• 1245

We don't accept the fact that the government can get all these benefits, yet we're not able to meet our housing needs.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. Binet.

[Translation]

Mr. Gérard Binet (Frontenac—Mégantic, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome, all of you. I want to thank and congratulate Guy for solving a problem so quickly.

I come from a family where there were many children. Five were living in the Abitibi region and are still there, in fact. My sister opened the first social services office in the Abitibi. So, in my family, we are quite familiar with Aboriginal peoples and Amerindians. I also run a renovation centre. So I am also quite familiar with housing problems such as air conditioning and moisture.

Last week, I was talking to one of my tenants who has been working 25 years in construction in the Far North. He works on large projects with Amerindians, and he confirmed that the housing problem there is quite severe. Many houses were badly built and had to be rebuilt from scratch. I have a hardware store and, as this gentleman who is an engineer explained, it's very hard to control the level of moisture in an overcrowded house. When there is a ventilation system, it's switched off most of the time because of the noise. I think non-mechanical air conditioning systems should be used; there are some. This problem has to be dealt with because moisture can be bad for your health. We have had the same problem in our region since we started to insulate our houses more efficiently. We save energy, but it has an effect on our health.

I just wanted to tell you that I am aware of your problems and that I am going to work on solving them. The federal government has obviously several other problems to deal with, but yours is most severe and I am going to do all I can to help you.

[English]

The Chair: All right. Thank you. I think that was more of a comment, so you don't expect a response.

[Translation]

Mr. Gérard Binet: Do I still have some time? No, then no more questions.

[English]

The Chair: All right. Thank you.

Mr. Chatters.

Mr. David Chatters: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, people, for coming to talk to us.

Clearly you are facing a crisis. I don't think there's any question about that. That has to be dealt with. I'll kind of follow up on Mr. Serré's comments. I do have, as does Mr. Martin, some expertise in the construction industry, and besides that I was raised in a small home with nine children and two parents. I faced some of the problems you talk about.

I've been struggling all along with the whole concept of whether there's a bigger issue that has to be dealt with than simply the tearing down of old houses and the building of new houses. It seems inconceivable to me, since you have engineering expertise and you have plumbing and electrical and ventilation people in the community, that these problems with ventilation and the moulds weren't recognized many years ago. Surely it would be better to spend $4,000 or $5,000 in upgrading an air-exchange system in a home than to let the home deteriorate, as it obviously has, to the point where you burn it down and you build a new one. It seems to me that you have to look at solutions to some of these other things, particularly the maintenance side of it. You have to have a program in place before you start out, or we'll never catch up on these new homes.

• 1250

The other issue I wanted to ask you to respond to was whether, when looking at this housing crisis—the cost and where you're going—you had considered multi-family units, condominium- or apartment-style units, that would house many people. Had you looked at the efficiencies you would gain in water, sewer, heat, and of course maintenance, which would be much easier to supervise in that type of a unit as well?

The Chair: Grand Chief Moses.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: Yes. I'll answer the question on the bigger problem, and I'll maybe have Norm respond to the one dealing with multi-unit dwellings.

Yes, there is a much bigger problem when you look at it. I've always said this to myself, it's a problem that exists today, it has been in existence for many years, and unless something is done about it the problem will continue and we will continue to have such situations as a housing crisis, with six houses among the nine Cree communities. That is one of marginalization coupled with exclusion.

When I use those terms, I mean in terms of others benefiting from the resources of our traditional territories. Sure, there are land claims agreements and one-time compensation moneys, which unfortunately disappear very, very fast if they're not managed properly. In the meantime it's the developers and the governments who continue to receive all the benefits from such a development.

Now, can you imagine what the situation would be if the Crees had a share in the resources of the development, if they had a share in what the Government of Canada gets, or if they had a share in what the Government of Quebec receives, the $1 billion profit each year that Hydro-Québec generates? Then I think these types of problems might be unheard of because we would have the resources to be able to address them and we'd have the means to take care of the needs of our people.

In the meantime, while this practice continues, then we continue to have these problems, which are compounded every year. Governments attempt to fix them with a band-aid approach of applying standard programs that they think should be applicable across the board, across the country. That is not the solution. I think from a bigger picture that's the crux of the problem.

Maybe, Norm, I'll let you answer the other question.

Mr. Normand Hawkins: Yes. The first part of the question was about design. Those buildings were basically designed to contain an average-sized family of four or five people. The problem was that they did not contemplate having 10, 12, or 14 people in them, and that's the problem. The problem is that funding for new housing hasn't kept pace with the growth in the population and the growth in new family formation.

The consequence is that people have to double up in existing houses, and so on. I was in one house in Chisasibi, for example, in fact one of those sick houses, where there were four newly married couples, each with an infant, all living in a two-bedroom house because there was no other place for them to live.

In the planning we have looked at different kinds of units for different family sizes and so on. The problem is that we haven't been able to do that on a year-by-year basis because in order to plan out how you're going to accommodate the population you need the total resources you're going to work with. For example, we only find out in May or June of the year of construction what the CMHC support is, then they have to do all their planning and get everything built in that very short construction season. We've tried to get that rectified for years. It makes no sense. It doesn't save money, and it wastes money, in fact. We could go on and on and on. I could spend a week here on all these problems.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.): Dr. Harris, you said that there was a woman with you who wanted to tell her story, and I'd like to give that woman my three minutes to tell her story.

• 1255

Ms. Marion Sam-Cox (Individual Presentation (Interpretation)): I want to say hello to everybody.

I want to start at the beginning. When we relocated from the island, I had a new house in 1980. As soon as I moved into the new house in the new location, I developed asthma and had a lot of wheezing. I had never had that before I moved into the house. I was working at the time, and I was unable to go to work a lot of times because I had a lot of severe headaches and was having asthma attacks all the time. I knew that it was the house that was making me sick because I had never had those problems before I moved into the house, and also I was not used to living in a house with electricity.

I had to go to the clinic very frequently, and the doctor finally told me that it was the house that was making me sick, the materials that were used and the house itself.

My children grew up and got married, but we were all still living in the same house. My condition got worse, so one of my daughters told me to try to get another house. My daughter thought that maybe it was the house that was making me sick, so she encouraged me to ask for another house.

I had to wait 15 years, from 1980 to 1995, before I could move into another house.

• 1300

Doctors had told me that I had to use the puffers for the rest of my life, as well as medication. But when I moved into the new house I noticed a vast improvement and I stopped using the puffers and the medication. It was only when I had a cold that I had to use my puffers after that.

After one year of being in the new house, one of my grandchildren had encephalitis. It's a Cree infant disease that we have currently, and in Chisasibi in particular. I realized that the old house was making my grandchild sicker, so I gave up my new house to my my child so my grandchild could live in a clean house.

The very same night I moved back into my old house I got sick again with a severe asthma attack and I lived there for one more year before I finally moved out of the house again. I got sick all the time while I was back in that old house.

My children convinced me to move back to the newer house that I had been in before and I improved immediately. Now I am free of asthma. I am still living in the newer house. I think it's because the ventilation is better in the new house and I don't get sick like I used to.

I'd like to explain something about these houses. They're very dry in the wintertime and that's another problem we have. I had to buy a humidifier and my symptoms improved with the humidifier, but when the humidifier broke down then I started getting very sick again.

Even though we have a lot of mould, because it's electrical heating we have very dry air and people develop a lot of colds and sore throats in the wintertime. When the humidifier broke down, I started getting sick again. I think the humidifier helped me to breathe easier. This is before I moved into the new house.

The parents of my grandchild with encephalitis are back living in the old house because the child is now being cared for in the hospital. But I'm not too happy about having anybody live in that old house I've moved out of. That's all I have to say. I could say a lot more if I wanted to, but that's it.

• 1305

The Chair: Thank you very much to the elder, Marion Sam-Cox. I would also like to thank Janir Pachanos for interpreting for us.

I know we have come to the end of our committee time. I would like to thank all the members for participating.

I very much want to make sure you remember that we have officials coming before us next Tuesday, and I know there are a lot of questions you can prepare now because of the first-hand experience you've heard from these people.

Again, I thank them very much for sharing their personal stories with us. We of course sympathize with them given the conditions they live in, and we hope to have a lot of serious questions to present at our next two committee meetings. One meeting is on Thursday, when we will hear from AFN and ITC, and we also have the officials coming on Tuesday. So we very much appreciate everyone's intervention.

Mr. Benoît Serré: Madam Chair, I'd like to make a quick comment. It will take 15 seconds.

The Chair: Mr. Serré.

Mr. Benoît Serré: I just wanted to tell you that I understand the problem of overcrowding in housing. My dad had 16 kids. We were not three to a bedroom; we were three to a bed. You can imagine, nine boys in the same bedroom. But on the positive side, it kept us warm at night because it was very cold too.

The Chair: I'll give a very short opportunity to Chief Moses.

Grand Chief Ted Moses: I wanted to thank you, Madam Chair, for hearing us, for giving us the opportunity to speak. On behalf of the Grand Council of the Crees, representing the nine Cree communities, on behalf of the community of Chisasibi, who appeared before you, I'd like to thank you, thank Mr. Guy St-Julien, our member of Parliament, and thank the members of the standing committee for your questions.

In closing, I would like to invite the members of the standing committee to visit Chisasibi and the other Cree communities, and as well to visit Nunavut and have a look first-hand at the housing situation, have a look at what we're talking about. It may be difficult for the whole standing committee to travel, so I think a small delegation would be appropriate. If that could be made possible with the minister's office, the Minister of Indian Affairs, or the minister responsible for CMHC, then we could have a serious look at this. A trip of that nature would involve two or three days. Anyway that invitation is extended to you people.

Meegwetch. Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

All the material we have received from the delegation will be distributed to everyone. We have sent all of it out for translation into French. Thank you so much.

The meeting is adjourned.