PACC Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES COMPTES PUBLICS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, October 27, 1999

• 1534

[English]

The Clerk of the Committee: Members of the committee, I see a quorum. Your first item of business is to elect a chair according to Standing Orders 106(1) and (2).

[Translation]

I am prepared to entertain motions for the election of a Chair.

[English]

Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Ref.): I nominate John Williams.

The Clerk: It's moved by Mr. Mayfield, seconded by Mr. Harb, that John Williams be elected chairman of this committee in absentia.

(Motion agreed to)

The Clerk: I declare Mr. Williams elected chairman of this committee.

• 1535

Mr. Williams not being here today, the committee will need a volunteer member to preside over this meeting as the acting chairman for the election of two vice-chairs.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Before we begin, can I ask a question? Is Mr. Myers a member of the committee this time?

The Clerk: No, he's not.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.)): We need a motion to elect the first vice-chair of the committee.

Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): I nominate John Richardson.

Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): Seconded.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Are there any other nominations?

(Motion agreed to)

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Mr. Richardson is first vice-chair.

I need a motion for the second vice-chair of the committee.

Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I nominate Steve Mahoney.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): It's seconded by Mr. Clouthier. Is there any discussion or any other nomination? All right.

(Motion agreed to)

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Mr. Proud, could you read for me motion (C)? We need to establish a subcommittee.

Mr. George Proud: I'll move it. Do you want me to read it?

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Yes, please.

Mr. George Proud: I move that the chair, the two vice-chairs, an additional Liberal member, and a representative of each of the Bloc Québécois, the New Democratic Party, and the Progressive Conservative Party do compose the subcommittee on agenda and procedure.

(Motion agreed to)

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Mr. Strahl, could you move the second motion, on Library of Parliament research officers?

Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Certainly. I'd like to move that the committee retain the services of one or more research officers from the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the committee in its work, at the discretion of the chair.

(Motion agreed to)

[Translation]

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Mac Harb): Mr. Sauvageau, I invite you to move the motion on page 3.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): I move that the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence when a quorum is not present provided that at least five (5) members are present including three (3) government members and two (2) members of the opposition.

(Motion agreed to)

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Ms. Redman, would you like to move the one regarding allocation of time for questioning?

Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): I move that the witnesses be given five minutes to summarize their opening statements, which will be appended to that day's evidence, and that during the questioning of the witnesses, eight minutes be allocated for the first questioner of each party, and that thereafter four minutes be allocated to each subsequent questioner, at the discretion of the chair.

(Motion agreed to)

[Translation]

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Mac Harb): Ms. Jennings, would you be so kind as to move the motion respecting witness expenses.

Ms. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): I move that, as established by the Board of Internal Economy and if requested, reasonable traveling, accommodation and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses who are invited to appear before the Committee up to a maximum of two (2) representatives for any organization.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Mac Harb): Thank you.

(Motion agreed to)

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): I need a motion for working lunches. Mr. Mahoney.

Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): I move that the committee authorize the chair, from time to time as the need arises, to take, in conjunction with the clerk of the committee, the appropriate measures to provide Swiss Chalet lunches for the committee—

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Strike “Swiss Chalet”.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: —and its subcommittees for working purposes, and that the cost of these lunches be charged to the budget of the committee.

(Motion agreed to)

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Is there other business?

Ms. Beth Phinney: Mr. Chair, I have a motion. I move that 48 hours' notice be given for any substantive motions.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Is that what we agreed last time?

Mr. Philip Mayfield: I won't support that.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: What was it in the last committee?

The Clerk: There was no notice of motion.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: I don't think it was necessary.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: It wasn't necessary.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Can you put it as a notice of motion until the next meeting, so that we can discuss it and find out what the norm is in other committees and see what can be done?

Ms. Marlene Jennings: If there's no rule on the issue of substantive motions, why not discuss it now?

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Mr. Sauvageau.

• 1540

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: May I move another motion? I don't wish to comment on this particular motion, but I would like to move another one.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Mac Harb): Right now, we are considering the motion moved by our colleague.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Fine, then I have no comments.

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): What was the standard before?

The Clerk: Some committees do have 48 hours' notice, but not the majority of committees. It's up to each committee. If they want their 48 hours' notice, they agree; if they don't, they don't.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Okay. We have a motion on the floor. We'll debate.

Mr. Strahl.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: No, I don't want to enter into protracted debate. This committee's going to do its business with the same chairperson that it has had for a couple of years now. It has not been necessary to have the 48 hours. As far as I know, there has been no abuse of notice of motions.

Let's face it, this committee is a little different. It's like the procedure and House affairs committee; there are not a lot of people shafting others. If you haven't needed this before, I would encourage you just to do without it in the future. It just gives you the flexibility you may want. Unless it has been abused, I would say that you don't need it. I would speak against the motion.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Mr. Mahoney, then Monsieur Sauvageau.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: Mr. Chair, we just adopted this—yesterday, I think—in citizenship and immigration. We did see cases of abuse in the past two years on that committee, which I pointed out.

I admit I haven't seen it here, but I think it's a standard situation. The real issue for me, which swung me over to supporting it, was that you don't have to introduce the motion at a meeting and then go 48 hours. You can introduce it first thing Monday morning or you can do it Friday afternoon. As long as it's in the hands of the clerk, the 48-hour clock starts to tick. If somebody wants to introduce a motion to get on the agenda for next week's public accounts, all they have to do is introduce it 48 hours in advance. I don't think it's an unreasonable or an onerous requirement.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Although urgent situations may occasionally arise where 48 hours' notice may not be advisable, after consulting with the our eminent committee expert, I discovered that this committee encountered no such emergencies or any serious problems. This provision may be useful for some committees, but in our particular case, I am opposed to it. On this score, I would tend to agree with our Reform Party colleagues.

[English]

Mr. Chuck Strahl: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Translation]

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Mac Harb): Ms. Jennings, have you any further comments?

[English]

Ms. Marlene Jennings: If we're being told that the issue of a standard time to give notice has not been an issue on this committee, then I would tend to say why not let the committee function as it has in the past? If we do come to the feeling that there is a problem, we can raise the motion again and adopt it if necessary.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Seeing no further debate on the—

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Mr. Chairman, I did ask to be recognized.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Sorry.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: This is an issue we discussed as we organized the committee previously. It was decided at that time—and I'm inclined not to change my mind—that because the committee operates as it does, a motion of this nature may in fact become a stumbling block. We have very amicable relations, which I sincerely hope will continue, and I see no reason not to expect that. The committee has had a great ability to sit down and discuss its procedure as well as its business and get through the day in an amicable fashion, and I would encourage that.

For that reason, I would suggest that it would be a mistake to go in this direction. As Madam Jennings has said, the opportunity to change it is still before us. It's not as though it's cut off forever.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Ms. Jennings, it's your motion. Is it your intent to call the vote on it?

Ms. Marlene Jennings: Yes.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Okay. We don't need a seconder.

All those in favour? Five. All those opposed? Five. It's five-five. What do you do?

An hon. member: You vote.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Long live democracy. I'll vote for the motion.

(Motion agreed to)

• 1545

An hon. member: There were six over here anyway.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Who didn't vote?

It's six-five, carried.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: You shouldn't just take orders from the whip. You should think on your own. Jeepers, that's stupid.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Chuck Strahl: That is just so stupid I can hardly believe it.

Ms. Beth Phinney: It wasn't his idea.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: Where did it come from?

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Gentlemen, ladies—

Mr. George Proud: May I ask a question?

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Yes, sir.

Mr. George Proud: What's the procedure for questioning when you have witnesses? How does the questioning go? It goes to the Reform first and then to the Bloc, and then how does it go from there?

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): I think we have a standard for that. Maybe the clerk can go over that for the benefit of the members.

The Clerk: Yes. As you see in the motion, it is five minutes for witnesses—

Mr. George Proud: Yes, but how does it go?

The Clerk: The official opposition is first, then the Bloc, and then the government.

Mr. George Proud: Okay.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Monsieur Sauvageau.

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I'm quite confident that my motion will receive the unanimous support of members. I think you'll support me on this, Ms. Jennings. I move that we uphold the provisions of the Official Languages Act and that we insist that all documents be distributed to us in both official languages.

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Agreed?

[Translation]

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Otherwise, we will not allow the document to be tabled.

[English]

Some hon. members: Agreed.

[Translation]

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Mac Harb): It's unanimous then.

(Motion agreed to)

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Mr. Strahl.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: Just as a clarification, all documents that are distributed should be in both official languages, but you'll accept the submissions in either language. I think that's usual, isn't it? You accept submissions, but before they're distributed—

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): They have to be translated.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: They must be translated. Okay, just so that's clear. Thank you.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Is that all right?

Mr. George Proud: Yes. They can submit them here and then they'll be translated.

Mr. Chuck Strahl: Yes, before they're distributed.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Mac Harb): Seeing no other business, if it's possible for the different people on the committee, especially the vice-chair, before the next meeting, to get the names of members who want to sit on the steering committee, you can pass them on to the clerk. Hopefully between now and then we'll have a chance to chat a little bit.

The meeting is adjourned.