INAN Committee Meeting

     Good afternoon, everyone.

    Welcome to the eighth meeting of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

    We are gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

    Today, we are starting our second study on the effects of the housing shortage on indigenous peoples across Canada.

    To begin the discussion, we are pleased to welcome the Hon. Marc Miller and his officials, and the Hon. Patty Hajdu and her officials. We also welcome Patricia Roset‑Zuppa, vice-president, policy development at the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

    After the first hour, we will be very pleased to welcome another group of witnesses.

    We will be receiving national and regional indigenous organizations in the second hour. We will have Regional Chief Cindy Woodhouse, Assembly of First Nations; Natan Obed, president, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami; and Chief Lance Haymond, Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador.

    Those of you taking part in the session in person are familiar with the health measures, so I will not repeat them.

    You also know the procedures that we follow in these committee meetings.

     In order to maximize our time, without further ado, I invite Minister Hajdu to take the floor.

    Minister, you have five minutes.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

    I am very pleased to be here with you.

    I'm very happy to be with you this morning.

     I am physically on the Robinson-Superior Treaty territory area and the homeland of the Fort William First Nation, with, of course, contributions by many Métis people over the years.

    I'm very honoured to be speaking to the committee today. I'm thrilled that you're conducting this study on the ability of indigenous people to have adequate, safe and affordable housing. It's an absolute necessity for the work of reconciliation, for safety and security and, in fact, for the economic development and prosperity of indigenous peoples.

    Unfortunately, successive governments have not prioritized housing for indigenous peoples. As a result, indigenous peoples are more likely to live in overcrowded homes and experience higher rates of all kinds of challenges, including mould and other poor housing conditions.

    The 2016 Census of Population estimates that roughly half of indigenous people live in a dwelling in need of some type of repair, while only one-third of the general population lives in a dwelling of similar conditions. The census also showed that indigenous peoples living on‑reserve are about eight times more likely than non-indigenous peoples off-reserve to live in crowded conditions.

     You can see that we have a lot of work to do. Indeed, access to adequate and safe housing is connected to building healthier and more prosperous communities.

     Without a safe place to call home, inadequate housing affects children and families, and it makes them more likely to experience respiratory problems. They have a higher risk of contracting infectious diseases like tuberculosis, COVID-19 and, of course, the ongoing mental health challenges that are exacerbated by crowded living.

    I've heard many examples of how inadequate housing has affected indigenous people and leaders from coast to coast bring this up as one of the top issues that their communities are facing, but this is not a new situation. I'm thrilled that my mandate from the Prime Minister asks me “to make immediate and long-term investments” to close the housing gap “by 2030”, and I ask the members of this committee to support the government as we prepare to do this crucial work.

    The government is working with indigenous partners on long-term approaches to ongoing current gaps and to addressing housing challenges. In August 2021, the Assembly of First Nations and the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy released a joint study that identified the need for housing in first nations communities at about 55,000 new units and 81,000 renovations on reserve. To close that gap by 2030, the government is committed to providing immediate and sustained funding for housing on first nations.

    I'm working together with first nations partners to codevelop the national first nations housing and related infrastructure strategy. This plan was endorsed by the Assembly of First Nations chiefs in 2018, and I'm committed to working with the Assembly of First Nations toward the advancement and implementation of the strategy.

    Through the implementation of this strategy, first nations access to sustainable housing will be increased in a way that meets their needs and priorities, respects regional and cultural differences and supports the transition to first nations care, control and management of housing, based on their capacity and their prioritization. Both organizations play complementary roles in addressing housing needs on reserves. While ISC handles funding directed towards capital infrastructure, loan guarantees, housing innovation and capacity building, CMHC focuses on social housing and renovations.

    I'm also working with my cabinet colleagues to implement the Inuit Nunangat housing strategy and the Métis housing subaccord. I'm also working with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, the Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion and the Minister of Northern Affairs on the codevelopment of a northern, urban and rural indigenous housing strategy.

    The government has made a number of important investments to ameliorate the need for housing in indigenous communities and for indigenous peoples. Since 2016, and as of September 30, 2021, the government has supported the construction and repair of homes for first nations households and communities on reserve. This includes building 7,873 new homes and the repair of well over 15,000. The figures don't include the units that are funded through the national housing strategy and its programs.

    In addition to new constructions and renovations, ISC is also acquiring and servicing 1,384 lots, of which 1,035 are complete and 349 are in progress.

    In the 2021 budget, we announced new investments to improve infrastructure, including housing.

    This additional funding will financially support first nations communities to build 800 new homes, renovate 2,000 housing units and ensure that 500 additional lots are being serviced. We know that these kinds of investments make a huge difference in the lives of families and individuals.

    Mr. Chair, as I said in my opening remarks, this is a very important study that you will be conducting, and the work the government is doing with first nations and indigenous people is just a start. The need is great. You will hear that from witnesses, and there is much more to do, but this government is committed to making the investments to reach the 2030 goal and close the housing gap for indigenous peoples.

    Meegwetch. Nakurmiik. Marsi. Thank you.

    Thank you very much, Minister Hajdu.

    I'll now pass the microphone to Minister Miller.

    Minister Miller, you have five minutes.

    Thank you, Chair.

     Kwe Kwe. Tansi. Unnusakkut. Good afternoon.

    I want to acknowledge that I am on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people here today and coming to you from Ottawa. It's nice to see you in person again.

    Thanks for this invitation on such an important issue.

    Indigenous peoples in Canada face the worst housing outcomes in the country, as Minister Hajdu described.

    We know that overcrowded, inadequate and expensive housing remains a key factor in the persistent physical health, mental health, and other social and economic challenges faced by indigenous communities.

    In Inuit Nunangat alone, close to 52% of Inuit live in overcrowded homes. Tuberculosis and, more recently COVID‑19, are prominent among the impacts this may have on health.

    The situation is unacceptable. We know that we have to work harder and quicker to close the gap and to support the partners in their work, so that we can be sure that everyone has access to a secure and healthy home.

     For Inuit housing needs, we are working with, notably, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, Inuit lands claims organizations and other federal departments to implement the codeveloped Inuit Nunangat housing strategy. The strategy sets out important joint work to address Inuit housing needs, and it is rooted in an approach to self-determination where Inuit play a direct role in the delivery of housing in Inuit Nunangat.

    To support its implementation, we have committed $13.2 billion through, in particular, the national housing coinvestment fund.

    Since 2016, we have committed $490 million over 12 years to support Inuit-led housing in Nunavik, Nunatsiavut and the Inuvialuit Region. Along with repairs to many existing units, these investments will result in close to 500 new units being constructed in these regions by the end of 2022. In budget 2021, we have invested $517.8 million in Inuit land claim organizations in order to support infrastructures in Inuit Nunangat.

    In Nunavut specifically, we have already invested $331 million to help 2,962 households access safe and secure housing. We have also provided $25 million to the Government of Nunavut to support their immediate housing and infrastructure needs, as well as $10 million to create an estimated 24 new affordable homes in Nunavut since 2016.

    As well, we established an intergovernmental task force to respond to the critical housing and infrastructure needs in Nunavut. We also continue to play an active role through codevelopment and implementation of other distinctions-based approaches to housing and infrastructure, including the Métis nation housing strategy, through the work at modern treaty and self-governing first nations tables as well.

    To support Métis nation housing infrastructure, we committed, in budget 2018, $500 million over 10 years. With this funding, Métis partners built or bought 1,158 housing units, repaired or renovated 2,096 housing units, and provided annual rental supports and subsidies, importantly, for 7,584 housing units.

    Since 2016, we have also committed $18 million for northern first nation and Métis communities in the Northwest Territories, as well as an additional $25 million for the Northwest Territories to support their immediate housing and infrastructure needs. We have also established a dedicated intergovernmental task force to respond to the critical housing and infrastructure needs in the Northwest Territories.

    In Yukon, housing and infrastructure needs are determined by each self-governing Yukon first nation. Their efforts have resulted notably in the building of 90 units and 13 new developed lots, a water main project and energy efficiency upgrades to existing housing and community-based infrastructure.

    We will continue to work with indigenous partners on the best ways to address the problem and we are directly supporting indigenous-led approaches in our desire to develop our policies jointly.

    I thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today to discuss this important work. I look forward to taking your questions.

    Meegwetch. Nakummek. Marci. Thank you. Merci.

    Thank you very much, Minister Miller.

    We will now turn to Patricia Roset-Zuppa, vice-president, policy development, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

    Ms. Roset-Zuppa, you have five minutes.

     Thank you very much, and thank you for the invitation to contribute to this important study.

    It is a pleasure to appear before this committee on behalf of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

    I'm joining you today from Ottawa on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. I have gratitude for this land and respect and appreciation for its many generations of caretakers.

    CMHC is Canada's national housing agency. We are guided by a bold aspiration that, by 2030, everyone in Canada will have a home that they can afford and that meets their needs—

    Forgive me for interrupting you, Ms. Roset‑Zuppa.

    Mr. Chair, the interpretation is not working.

    Okay. We'll just pause here, and I'll pause the time. Let's see if we can sort this out.

    I'm going to assume that we can resume.

    I apologize, Ms. Roset-Zuppa. Please continue.

    No problem.

    CMHC is Canada's national housing agency. We are guided by a bold aspiration that, by 2030, everyone in Canada will have a home that they can afford and that meets their needs. We're doing this in part by delivering the national housing strategy, a multi-billion dollar plan grounded in a human-rights-based approach to housing.

    To achieve the goal of the strategy, our corporate aspiration, and to support Canada's goal of reconciliation, we know that we must do more to address the diverse and pressing housing needs of indigenous peoples.

    Canada has a severe shortage of housing supply and that disproportionately affects indigenous peoples. According to 2016 census data, the rate of core housing need among indigenous households is 18% compared with the national average of 12.7%. This data reflects crowding, the need for major repairs and unaffordable conditions.

    Indigenous people are also overrepresented among the 35,000 people who experience homelessness each night in Canada. They are also more than twice as likely to experience hidden homelessness, especially in the north, compared to their non-indigenous counterparts. Indigenous housing needs are complex and they are urgent. They are most dire across the territories, where approximately one-third of the indigenous population lives in unacceptable housing.

    There is much work to do with indigenous partners to resolve this. We must continue to build and expand on what is being done by and with the federal government. For example, first nations, Inuit and Métis nation organizations alongside Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada recently codeveloped distinctions-based housing strategies for first nations, Inuit and Métis. CMHC is very proud to be an active partner in this work.

    Still, the majority of indigenous households live in urban, rural and northern areas, and they also need access to safe, adequate and affordable housing.

    That's why we were pleased to see that the mandate letter of the Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion includes the commitment to engage with indigenous partners and to codevelop an urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy. This strategy was one of the main recommendations of the previous HUMA committee's report, and we at CMHC are ready and fully committed to support this work.

    In 2019, we also set up a new indigenous and northern housing solutions team to increase the uptake of our housing programs and help to navigate our funding options and application process. As a result, the number of indigenous housing projects committed to has increased exponentially and will continue to grow.

    Take, for example, the rapid housing initiative created to address the urgent need for housing in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. The program received strong interest from indigenous groups, and nearly 40% of all units created under the first round of this $2.5-billion program will benefit indigenous households.

    I think one the most important changes at CMHC has been a major shift in our approach to indigenous housing. We're working with indigenous partners to make existing programs more accessible, to build stronger relationships and to support self-determination. This work is being led by our indigenous and northern housing solutions team. It is supported by our new vice-president of indigenous relations and will be guided by our reconciliation action plan.

    First nations, Inuit and Métis people best understand the distinct housing needs of their people and communities. They are best placed to find solutions that work for them, and we are committed to helping them to succeed.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair and the rest of the committee, for studying this important issue. I'd be happy to take any questions you may have.

    Thank you, Ms. Roset-Zuppa.

    We'll now proceed with the first round of questions, beginning with the Conservatives.

     Mr. Vidal, I believe you're speaking first. You have six minutes.

     Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I want to thank the witnesses for being here again.

     Minister Hajdu, again we're here on a Friday afternoon. I think we did this together not too long ago.

    The study we're embarking on today as a committee obviously is in regard to the effects of housing shortages on indigenous peoples. Over the past several months, the communities of Black Lake, Fond du Lac and Pelican Narrows in my northern Saskatchewan riding have announced tuberculosis outbreaks.

    Minister Hajdu, you talked a bit about that in your comments.

    We're talking about dozens of outbreaks and over a hundred cases. That's nearly double what it was a few years ago, and much higher than it has been in over a decade. Rates of tuberculosis in Saskatchewan are continually above the national average, but northern Saskatchewan, where we make up 3.6% of the province's population, is responsible for half of the province's cases, according to a study from 2021 that looked at outbreaks of tuberculosis.

     The recently released departmental results report from Indigenous Services Canada for the year 2020-21 admitted that “the development of [the] tuberculosis reduction action plan for First Nations was not completed” as planned. What's more concerning is that in the 2022-23 departmental plan for ISC, I don't see any mention being made of any measures to prevent these outbreaks.

    I guess my questions are threefold. I'll throw all of them out right away for Minister Hajdu.

     Why is it that in a developed country like Canada in 2022 we continue to face tuberculosis outbreaks? What can I tell my constituents in northern Saskatchewan about when they can expect the government to release its action plan, and will it include targets? Finally, will this plan include some actual measures to deal with the overcrowded, unhealthy housing in these communities?

    Thank you very much.

     Through the chair, I'm happy to say that I was in Saskatchewan last week, I think, or the week before last; time takes on a new meaning in COVID. On the last trip I took, I was in Saskatchewan and I had a chance to meet with the FSIN and many other individual chiefs in the region. We talked a lot about housing. As a matter of fact, in my opening remarks, I reflected on the leaders who have spoken to me about housing and, as I was saying those words, I was reflecting on the conversations I had specifically in Saskatchewan.

    As you know, budget 2021, for example, commits $6 billion for infrastructure, including shovel-ready infrastructure projects and operations and maintenance costs, along with many other investments in first nations health, including $5.5 billion, for example, to improve health outcomes through timely access and culturally appropriate medical care.

    You point out that housing is a critical ingredient in defeating infectious diseases like tuberculosis, and I would agree. I'd also say that we have to work more quickly on supporting culturally appropriate medical care and access. Many of the first nations leaders I spoke to on that trip talked to me, quite eloquently, actually, about the exclusion they felt from appropriate medical care from the Government of Saskatchewan and spoke about the need for urgency in the codeveloped health legislation and in appropriate and culturally appropriate care that can be provided closer to home for people who are treating, in some cases, very difficult to treat illnesses like tuberculosis.

    There's work on the housing front and on the social determinants of health, but also on the actual delivery of health care that, as you know, we deliver in partnership with provinces and territories.

    Thank you for that. I want to turn my attention to Minister Miller for a minute.

    Minister, you and I have had a number of conversations about a project in northern Saskatchewan that we've been trying to have some success on. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. It involves the Meadow Lake Tribal Council and a company called One Sky Forest Products. The the idea behind this project was an opportunity to invest in a very successful project that was going to create all kinds of dividends for many first nations in northern Saskatchewan and allow them to participate in the solutions to the housing crisis we face in northern Saskatchewan.

    As it turns out, this project didn't fit the normal kinds of operating procedures of the federal bureaucracy and, to put it bluntly, the lack of flexibility became the barrier to getting this project off the ground. I'm just curious to know if you could respond to this. How do we justify to these northern communities, when they want to be part of the solution, that we can't get these projects across the line to allow them to participate and be part of that solution?

    Thank you, MP Vidal, for the question. I know that I've changed roles, but I've still been following this with my team.

     Clearly, on whether the facts in this case point to your conclusion that there is a lack of flexibility and funding in the way we work, I don't want to necessarily talk to publicly, out of respect for the communities in question, but I think the conclusion is not inaccurate insofar as what we've heard time and time again from communities, which is that lack of flexibility in our programs really hampers, confuses and delays, particularly in housing. In this situation, when we're talking about tuberculosis on one hand or COVID on the other, it actually can have real impacts on people's health and well-being.

    While I won't question the facts and the premise, or at least discuss them or ventilate them publicly, I do think the conclusion is not inaccurate in many things we do. It's part of the reason why, under my portfolio, under modern treaties and the grant basis on which monies are allocated, it's really that the federal government works, codevelops and then gets the heck out of the way.

    Really quickly, then, would you agree, Minister, that we need to find opportunities for these communities to invest in projects where they can be part of the solution rather than rely strictly on government programs?

    Again, it depends on what issue we're really tackling. Whether it's an issue of inequity or it's really the underfunding by the federal government or other institutions that's created that, there's one approach. Then there's economic development, which is very much the case in question that you were championing. That's another approach that we need to take.

    It's multi-faceted and goes across a number of departments, but yes, I do agree with you on the principles.

    Thank you, Mr. Vidal.

    We'll now go to Mr. Weiler from the Liberal Party.

    Mr. Weiler, you have six minutes.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I'd like to thank our ministers and officials for joining us for today's really important meeting on a study that's very much top of mind.

    My first question is for you, Ms. Roset-Zuppa. It was a very special moment last week when I had the opportunity to announce, in partnership with the Squamish Nation, 80 units of new affordable housing that will be built within the next year for the benefit of the Squamish Nation. I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about this project and other programs within the national housing strategy that are supporting the creation of new, permanent affordable housing for indigenous peoples.

    Thank you very much for that question.

    I think you might be referring to a project done under the rapid housing initiative. The rapid housing initiative, which I would say is a very important and successful program, was introduced specifically as a COVID response because of the incredible needs that really intensified, especially during COVID, among those households that were already facing deep housing needs.

    Under the rapid housing initiative, there were two rounds of funding for a total of $2.5 billion. What made this program a bit different from others was that it was 100% contribution funding for 100% of the capital dollars. There was a real urgency behind it. Units were meant to be provided and realized within fairly short order, including through modular housing, for example, as well as other building techniques. Really, it was for proponents to be able to apply and for us to get funding out the door as quickly as possible, but also acknowledging some flexibilities in northern indigenous communities, where we know that housing would take a bit more time to get out the door.

    Certainly, we've seen great success. About 40% of the units under the rapid housing initiative have been committed to indigenous projects.

    That's great. As part of your opening testimony, you mentioned the creation of a new committee to help indigenous people with accessing some of CMHC's funding. Maybe you could speak a little bit more about how that committee operates, if it's reaching out directly to first nations or if you're waiting to be contacted to be able to assist in that regard.

    I was talking about an internal team within CMHC for indigenous and northern housing solutions.

    Mr. Chair, may I bring in my colleague here to speak to that? He's directly delivering this and working with indigenous partners.

    You may if Mr. Weiler agrees.

    Absolutely.

    Thank you.

    Go ahead, Ben.

    Thank you.

    Patricia was talking about some of the structure changes we made back in 2019 in order to be, honestly, more flexible and more agile and responsive to indigenous housing needs. Through that, we created a dedicated team for indigenous clients. The team is divided into roughly two groups. One works directly with first nations communities across the country for us to be able to better understand housing needs and actually respond to them. A second group processes and prioritizes applications.

    That way, we are getting better results, quite frankly, through the national housing strategy focused on indigenous households.

    Thank you.

    Minister Miller, what often came up in our last study on barriers to economic development for indigenous peoples were the challenges that the lack of affordable housing creates. I know that it consistently ranks as one of the top priorities, if not the top priority, for first nations in my riding, including self-governing first nations.

    I was hoping you could speak a little bit more to the indigenous-led projects or partnerships related to housing and infrastructure that your department is involved in.

     First of all, I acknowledge some of the confusion that can be created. Whether it falls under Minister Hajdu or Crown-Indigenous Relations or CMHC, it's difficult to navigate for MPs, and it's difficult to navigate for indigenous communities. That is part of the job we have in parsing and figuring it out, so that we're putting our best foot forward to communities that are in dire need.

    When it comes to self-governing nations, that is one of the distinctions we funded in budget 2021, with over $500 million going to self-governing nations across the country, whether in Quebec...or a good number of which are in B.C., including Sechelt, which benefited from close to $10 million of investments in affordable housing.

    It isn't enough and I readily acknowledge that. It's something that we'll have to relentlessly invest in to close the gap by 2030. One of the challenges is quantifying it. Self-governing nations, as part of their advocacy, put forward a very well-thought-out analysis of where the gap is and what was needed to close it, and budget 2021 allocated those amounts.

    We don't go around patting ourselves on the back on it, because that gap is there and it is expressed in real human need. However, we're willing to move on it, whether it's through these investments or it's through rapid housing or others. Even, I would note, B.C.—that's where we need provincial governments on board—is leading the way with its own investments into housing, which are very significant.

    Mr. Weiler, you have about 10 seconds.

    I'll cede my time then. Thank you.

    Thank you, Mr. Weiler.

    Ms. Gill, the floor is yours for six minutes.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I would also like to thank Ministers Miller and Hajdu and their officials, and Ms. Roset‑Zuppa and Mr. Williams, for testifying before the committee today.

    I have a huge number of questions, as I am the member of Parliament for a constituency where almost 15% of the population is indigenous. It is a vast territory where people live in places with no air or road access. Sometimes, they travel from one community to another by snowmobile. The needs are great. The communities are remote, yes, but they are also isolated.

    There is one thing I would like to find out because I find it important. There is a lot of general talk about figures and strategies. There is talk of budget 2021 and what was in the budget statement. But we don't really see anything concrete, anything actually happening, with a few exceptions I might mention in my own constituency. This is all about Maslow's pyramid. Shelter is a basic need. We need to be protected and physically safe in order to live. It's as simple as that.

    I would like to talk about the many impacts that the housing shortage has on First Nations. Ms. Hajdu told us about COVID‑19, of course. Its effects are made exponentially worse by the housing shortage. However, I would like to hear more from her about other effects because COVID‑19 is a recent problem going back to 2019, whereas the shortage has been going on for 60 years.

    Can she talk about a number of other effects that the housing shortage has on First Nations?

    Thank you very much, Mrs. Gill.

    Thank you very much for your questions and your comments around the effects that a lack of housing has on people. You're right that it's not just health effects, although those are well documented and well studied. Many people consider housing to be the foundation of wellness, whether we're talking about physical wellness, mental wellness or the ability to learn, grow and play.

    I also spoke to many indigenous leaders over the last several months about the ongoing strain of crowded conditions. People told very moving stories of housing that would incorporate 15 to 20 individuals in a household, and—

    I have to interrupt you, Madam Minister, because I would like to move on. I see that you are well aware of the extent of these problems. We are talking about people's physical well-being.

    In our last session, we talked about economic development, among other things. I would like to know whether you also agree with me in saying that the housing problem cuts across other issues. We are talking about economic development and about other topics that we have put on the committee's agenda. But, in reality, all those topics flow mostly from the housing issue.

    Do you also agree with that?

    In principle, absolutely. Without a safe place to call home, it's very hard for people to study. It's very hard for people to raise families, for people to—

    Excuse me, Ms. Hajdu. I feel that I may not have been clear.

    I am talking about the committee's studies, not studies by individuals. I was talking about our studies here at the committee, where everything is interrelated. The housing issue relates to everything else. That's what I meant.

     I think we're agreeing.

    So I will have some other questions for you at that time, because the clock is still ticking.

    You said that you wanted to invest $6 billion to eliminate the housing shortage by 2030. Just looking at what is happening in Quebec, very specifically for First Nations—I am not talking about Inuit—we have $3.9 billion to eliminate the current housing shortage in five years. You also know that the demographic curve is exponential. It means that we will never even manage to eliminate the shortage. That is according to my calculations. You could do the calculations again, it's basic arithmetic. Just in Quebec, with 225 units per year, it will take 44 years before the housing shortage is eliminated. That doesn't even consider population increase.

    Does your department consider it?

    It is something that our department takes into consideration and the $6-billion number that I referenced was the amount in budget 2021 alone. In fact, the department is working closely with indigenous leaders, communities and researchers to understand the gap and to be able to plan out to 2030 what those investments will look like in order to close the gap.

    Do you have a figure already?

    The point is that $6 billion is not a lot. Nevertheless, it was in the statement. What has been allocated from that amount of $6 billion?

    You should have a figure. Then, by the rule of three, we should be able to arrive at the amount we will need in 2030.

    Thank you, Madame Gill.

    Firstly, I'll just note that you referenced that $6 billion is not a lot. I anticipate your support then for budget 2022 as we continue these investments in housing.

    I will turn to our officials to talk a little bit about how that $6 billion is being allocated and spent.

    Deputy Fox.

    Good afternoon. Thank you for the question.

    To answer specifically about the $6 billion, up to now, we have invested $1 billion in projects in Quebec. That means more than 200 new units and more than 1,000 renovations. It also includes utilities and water. So we are continuing to work with our partners in Quebec.

    We also have examples of innovation. We have a project with Quebec that essentially funds new ways for First Nations to invest and access capital. It's a method that we are trying out in the department in order to turn the page and look at new funding models. The model has been successful, with new projects starting. So we will be pleased to share that information with you.

    Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

    We will now move to Ms. Idlout.

    Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

    [Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

    ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᐃᒃᓯᕙᐅᑖᖅ. ᑕᒪᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᐱᖅᖁᑕᐅᔪᑦ ᐊᒃᓱᕉᑎᒋᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᑐᓴᐅᒪᕙᐃᓐᓇᖅᖢᖓ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᓯᒍᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᕐᔪᐊᓂᒃ ᑐᓂᓯᓂᐊᖏᓐᓇᕐᓂᕋᐃᓪᓗᓯ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑐᓵᖏᓐᓇᐅᔭᖅᖢᒋᑦ ᐊᑲᖅᓴᙲᓐᓇᐅᔭᑐᐃᓐᓇᕐᓇᖅᑐᐊᓗᒃ. ᒋᐅᓪ ᑖᓐᓇ ᒪᓕᒐᓕᐅᖅᑎᕐᔪᐊᖃᑎᒐ ᐊᐱᕆᔭᖏᑦ ᐅᕙᓐᓄᑦ ᐊᑦᑐᐊᖓᑐᐃᓐᓇᑦᑎᐊᕐᒪᑕ, ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᐅᕙᖓ ᐊᐱᕆᔭᒃᑲ ᐃᑎᔪᐊᓘᒃᑲᓐᓂᖅᖢᑎᒃ. ᖃᐅᔨᒪᓂᕋᐃᔪᓯ ᑕᒪᔅᓯ ᐅᖃᓵᖅᑐᓯ, ᐃᒡᓗᑭᒃᓴᕐᓂᖅ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥ ᐊᖏᓛᖑᔪᖅ. ᐊᐱᖅᓱᕆᐊᖃᖅᑐᖓ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᑦᑎᐊᒻᒪᕆᒃᑐᖓ, ᐅᑯᐊ ᐊᐱᖅᓱᕈᒪᔭᒃᑲ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᔭᒃᑲ. ᑭᐅᔭᐅᑦᑎᐊᕈᒪᓂᐊᖦᖤᕋᓗᐊᖅᐳᖓ ᐃᒪᓐᓇᑦᑎᐊᖅ ᓱᓕᓪᓗᖓ. ᓯᕗᓪᓕᖅᐹᖅ ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᖅᑐᖓ ᐃᓕᖕᓄᑦ ᒥᓂᔅᑕ ᒥᓗ, ᐳᕋᐃᒻ ᒥᓂᔅᑕ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒨᓚᐅᕐᒪᑦ ᐋᒋᓯᒥᑦ ᐅᖃᓚᐅᖅᖢᓂ ᓴᓂᕐᕙᐃᓯᒪᓂᐊᕐᒪᑕᒎᖅ $306 ᒥᓕᔭᓐᓂᒃ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒧᑦ ᑐᕌᖓᔪᒥᑦ ᐃᒡᓗᓕᕆᓂᖅ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᐅᓂᒃᑲᐅᑎᑦᑎᐊᒃᑲᓐᓂᕈᖕᓇᖅᐱᐅᒃ ᐊᒡᒍᖅᑐᖅᓯᒪᓂᖓ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᖃᓄᖅ ᑐᓂᐅᖅᖃᖅᑕᐅᓂᐊᕐᒪᖔᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᓄᑦ.

    [Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

     Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

    I have heard many questions and I know that the federal government has promised many thousands of monies for many years now and we expect to get the money to build houses. What you asked previously, it impacts me. There are questions I need to ask you on behalf of Nunavut, which are also very important. We have a very bad shortage of housing, probably the worst in Canada.

    I have a question. I would like a clear response when I ask you this question.

     Firstly, I want to ask Minister Miller, when the Prime Minister visited Nunavut in August, he made a promise to invest $306 million in Nunavut housing. Would you provide a breakdown of when this money will be delivered to Nunavut?

     Thank you, MP Idlout, for that.

    I want to thank the interpreter for translating from Inuktitut into English.

    We made that commitment. It is something we intend to commit.... I can't speak as a cabinet minister to the content and timing of budget. I fully expect our government to fulfill that. I know the work we are doing in our department to continue to work with ITK and land claim organizations, and not only working with the incredible work they've done to put together numbers. A lot of the time with advocacy organizations—and I don't blame them—we throw numbers at each other. There's a lot of work that's been put in by ITK into crystallizing that into a tangible number that we can then turn to finance and work on, and work through budgetary cycles.

    I know that sounds like technical speak, but it is very important work, and it's a testament to the level of advocacy that's been achieved.

    We have, through budget 2018 and the latest budget in 2021, put close to over a billion dollars in Inuit Nunangat. The current budget 2021 numbers on behalf of the advocacy organizations are not necessarily focused on housing. The previous amounts are, but clearly the lack that you've identified is there. It's stuff that we have to keep working on with you and the work that you're doing, MP Idlout, but also with ITK, the territorial governments and land claim holders.

    [Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

    ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᑖᓐᓇ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᐱᓪᓚᓵᖅᑕᐃᑦ ᐊᓯᖏᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᐃᑦ ᓲᕐᓗ 2018-ᒥᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᓵᖅᑕᐃᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᔭᐅᓚᐅᕐᒥᔪᑦ 2019-ᒥᑦ 2020-ᒧᑦ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᕆᓚᐅᖅᑕᖏᑦ ᓴᖅᖀᑐᐃᓐᓇᓚᐅᕐᒪᑕ 83-ᓂᒃ ᐃᒡᓗᓂᑦ, ᒫᓐᓇᐅᔪᖅ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᐃᒡᓗᑖᖅᑎᒋᒋᐊᓖᑦ 3,000-ᓂᓪᓘᓐᓃᑦ ᐅᕝᕙᓘᓐᓃᑦ 3,300-ᓄᓪᓘᓐᓃᑦ. ᑖᓐᓇ ᓈᒻᒪᒐᓱᒋᕕᐅᒡᓕ? ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᕐᔪᐊᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᓚᐅᖅᑕᑎᑦ ᓴᓂᕐᕙᖅᑕᐅᔪᑦ ᓴᖅᖀᔪᓐᓇᑐᐃᓐᓇᓚᐅᖅᑐᑦ 83-ᓂᒃ, ᓈᒻᒪᒃᑑᔮᖅᐸᑕᓕ ᐃᓕᖕᓅᑦ?

    [Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

    You mentioned earlier the dollars that were committed in 2018. You also mentioned the amounts that were committed in 2019 and 2020. That built 83 houses. At the moment, Nunavut needs between 3,000 and 3,330 homes.

    Do you think this is an adequate amount of money that you're committing? Only 83 houses were built with the commitments that were made.

    I would answer that in two parts. First, on the timing, we've seen challenges with the short construction season. It's not an excuse; it's just a fact. Obviously, it can't go fast enough. The logistical challenges through COVID are undeniable.

    As to the quantum, both Minister Hajdu and I have said publicly that it is not adequate. It is not sufficient, and we have to continue investing.

    I want to apologize to you for the words I used in the House with respect to the average price of a house in Nunavut. I understated it. I believed it to be $400,000 or $500,000, and most recently I found out it's closer to $600,000. There's been a huge spike over the last year. That's been highlighted on the floor of the territorial parliament. That is something we're also tackling. There is also a third aspect to that, which is a spike in prices, which should be part of this study, because it does impact delivery and results on the ground.

    [Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

    ᐊᓯᒋᔭᐅᔪᒥᑦ ᑕᐃᒃᑯᐊ ᕼᐃᐅᒪᖑᓂᕋᖅᑕᐅᔪᑦ ᐅᖃᓕᒫᒐᓕᐅᓚᐅᕐᒥᖕᒪᑕ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᓄᑦ ᐃᒡᓗᓕᕆᔾᔪᑎᖏᓐᓂᑦ, ᐊᖃᖅᓯᒪᓪᓗᓂ Crown-Indeginous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, ᐃᓕᒃᓯ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᑦᑎᐊᕋᔅᓯᒎᖅ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᐃᑦ ᓈᒻᒪᙱᒻᒪᑕ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐊᑐᐊᓂᒍᓐᓇᙱᖦᖢᑎᒃ ᑖᓐᓇ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᓇᖅᓯᐊᓂᖕᒪᑦ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᓪᓗᒍ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᐊᐱᕆᓕᖅᐸᒋᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᕕᒃᑐᖅᓯᒪᔪᖅᓯᒍᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᖃᖅᓯᒪᓕᖅᐱᓯ ᑕᐃᒃᑯᐊ ᐱᖁᔨᕗᖔᕈᑎᖏᑦ ᓴᖅᕿᑕᐅᓚᐅᖅᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᕼᐃᐅᒪᒃᑯᑦ ᖃᐅᔨᓵᓪᓚᓚᐅᖅᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ? ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ.

    [Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

    With regard to housing in Nunavut, the HUMA report on indigenous housing, which this committee's study is building on, stated, “Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada recognized that funding was not sufficient or consistent to meet needs, and that more work was needed to address housing needs.”

    Regarding the work that has been done by CIRNAC to address the housing needs since your appearance at HUMA in the last Parliament, what has changed within that department?

    You have my apologies. I don't remember the date of that appearance. What we rushed to do, and that was thanks to the advocacy of Natan Obed and ITK, was that, once the amounts in budget 2021 were approved, they moved quickly through Treasury Board, so we could deploy them. Understanding the short construction season, understanding that those allocations needed to be made on a destinations basis, and getting those monies out as quickly as possible, obviously, there have been logistical challenges and there will continue to be logistical challenges.

    What we've heard and learned through that study has been confirmed through COVID and the Inuit experience. Overcrowding is the principle factor driving the unacceptable tuberculosis rates in this country. This is a human condition. It isn't necessarily one that has to do with bricks and mortar. It's about people and the ability to live in an uncrowded situation, which, as I said in my introductory remarks, affects 52% of Inuit.

     Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

    We'll now proceed to the second round, and we'll try to get in as much as we can.

     We'll start with the Conservatives, who have five minutes.

     I have a blank here. I'm not sure who the Conservative is who will speak, but you have five minutes.

    I'll take that, Chair. Thank you.

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Witnesses, we heard recently from the Lands Advisory Board, Robert Louie, in fact, that lands are central to first nations traditions, identity and prosperity. They are a crucial asset for advancing self-determination, economic development and well-being.

    This goes to Minister Hajdu, but, Minister Miller, you're welcome to interject if you want.

    Do you agree that first nations should be governing and managing their own land interests?

    Since you addressed me, I will answer yes. The goal of this government is self-determination and self-government.

    However, as the minister of crown relations, I would say that Minister Miller has a lot to say about this subject.

    My answer is yes.

    Okay.

     Robert Louie also told us that the Lands Advisory Board, in partnership with the B.C. Land Title and Survey Authority, has been working on a proposal for over a year now to establish an independent, first nation operated land registry system for first nations with land codes under an earlier framework agreement. This proposal has been submitted to both departments, ISC and CIR.

    Is there an update as to where that submission is at?

     As an overarching comment, there needs to be more work done in this country as to how land is held, and it doesn't have to be the way I hold my property. I think that's one of the criticisms that has been fairly levelled on some of the self-governing work that we've done. That work is largely incomplete.

    Some of the work that's been done in and around land codes has been groundbreaking, and some communities are benefiting from them but it doesn't fit for everyone. It is an impediment to moving forward on the self-governing status and, frankly, is one of the factors that are driving communities to choose to remain under the Indian Act, which is an unacceptable proposition, we all agree.

    There is work being done. It is painstaking work, and it's work that we have to keep pushing.

    I wanted to offer those comments, because it isn't simply the frame in which you're putting it. That is a very important one in terms of the speed at which we're deploying programs that have already been accepted to and codeveloped, but there's also a much larger discussion to be had, as we work towards ensuring that land is given back.

    Daniel, do you have any additions to that?

    I'll continue. I can't hear anything.

    It's been 26 years since the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management was signed. One hundred and thirteen first nations have enacted land codes and report that under no circumstance would they consider returning to the Indian Act.

    Could you basically update the committee...? First of all, you answered my question that you support moving to that type of model. Is there a plan—or where are you in that plan if you are planning it—to have a first nations housing authority replace the current system that we have now?

    That's kind of a broad question.

    I don't have a clear answer to that. I would say that those solutions aren't ones that we impose. In reflection, while there are well over a hundred communities that would choose to organize themselves that way, it isn't perfect for everyone. The ones that have availed themselves of it, have availed of it in a way that serves their people.

    That is all I would have to offer on that. On an independent housing authority, perhaps Minister Hajdu or some of the officials could chime in on that.

    I can give an overarching endorsement of Minister Miller's top line, which is that it's not going to look the same all across the country. This has to be indigenous-led and indigenous-supported, and each region and each community has a different perception of how that work will unfold.

    Deputy Minister Fox, you've been involved in these conversations, and perhaps you can add a few comments.

    I would make maybe two comments.

    On the indigenous housing institution, this is definitely something we're looking into. It's been proposed by the national housing council as an idea to address remote, urban and northern housing challenges. As we look at transferring service, as we look at self-determination, I would say that's definitely a model we're looking on.

    When it comes to the proposal with respect to the indigenous first nations land registry and land codes, I think it is an important part of self-determination. We see that as sort of stepping away from being under the Indian Act, which is a really important self-determination action.

    We obviously work very closely with indigenous communities when it comes to additions to reserve. Sometimes those are straightforward, but sometimes extremely complex, as you can imagine, with provincial, territorial and other first nations. However, we look to see how we can support our indigenous partners as they work through those issues.

     Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

    We'll now go to Mr. Powlowski.

    Mr. Powlowski, you have five minutes.

    Thank you.

    Thank you to the ministers for being here.

    My question is for Patty. She knows, but for the sake of other people in the committee who don't know, she's sitting right now in Fort William First Nation, which is in my riding.

    As she knows, a very big issue—in fact, it's the one most important issue that Chief Collins of the Fort William First Nation came to me with—is the issue of getting federal funding for a chronic care home in Fort William First Nation. Certainly, COVID has illustrated I think for all Canadians the importance of chronic care homes and the fact that the elderly should be able to, hopefully, spend the last years of their lives in good surroundings. That isn't always the case in Canada.

    I know, and she probably knows, that it's been a bit of a battle trying to find funding for that. Hopefully, we've found a source of funding in the green and inclusive fund from Infrastructure Canada. The problem, I think, is fairly ubiquitous in first nation communities and probably also among the Inuit. Is there funding specifically—either from you or CMHC, which may want to comment on this—for chronic care homes in indigenous communities?

    Thank you very much, MP Powlowski.

    Technically, today I'm not on the Fort William First Nation. I'm in my constituency office in my riding, but it's still within the territory of Fort William First Nation.

    You're right. I've spoken with Chief Collins as well about this project and about the idea that indigenous people are often facing care needs far away from home or in non-culturally appropriate settings. That's certainly something that I think we can all relate to as members of Parliament for various regions across this country. My office is working with Minister LeBlanc's office on this application to the green infrastructure fund.

    The question of infrastructure priorities is different across the country. Of course, each community has been completing or has completed their infrastructure planning process, and some of those do contain plans or desires to create all kinds of different care facilities.

    Maybe I can turn to Chris, who can talk a bit about what she's seeing in that infrastructure planning that's happening across the country.

    Yes, definitely. I think that $6-billion investment is really meant to be for schools, for health infrastructure and for other types of facilities.

    In some cases, we're seeing creative approaches to multi-purpose buildings. You may have your indigenous early learning and child care centre in the same area as you would have a long-term care home. Between the programs at Indigenous Services Canada, CMHC and Infrastructure, we really try to look at what is that community infrastructure plan, what that asset management plan looks like and then how we can best support it through the various Government of Canada programs.

    To follow up, maybe I can ask someone from the department about this. From my office, when we look at how to assist indigenous communities with this kind of problem, we don't really know where to start. We go to Indigenous Services, CMHC and then the Ministry of Health.

    Is there any one place or person that communities can go to and say “this is the issue” and ask which ministry they should start off with to try to address the problem?

    I'm happy to take that. Thank you for the question.

    What I would say is that for our regional executives across the country we do have a footprint across the country at Indigenous Services Canada. They are really meant to be that single window, where they work with communities on what their needs are. Sometimes, as you note, it can be something that Indigenous Services Canada provides, and at times it's broader than that.

     I think that it can be—and we can appreciate this—overwhelming to navigate all of the government programs, so we really are trying to take a community-centred approach to see what the needs are, what the priorities of the community are and then how can we turn around and work with our colleagues in the federal system to try to address some of those needs. That's the approach we try to take. We work very closely with CMHC and Infrastructure Canada in that regard.

     Mr. Powlowski, you have about 10 seconds.

    Ms. Roset-Zuppa, you mentioned hidden homelessness. You didn't explain it. What is this?

    Thank you for that question.

    Hidden homelessness is the case of people being homeless but not going to shelters, for example. They might not have their own stable housing but are couch surfing with family members or friends, or going from home to home, so we don't necessarily have a good recording of it.

    I must say that, for further experience and expertise, when it comes to homelessness, we do a lot of work with our colleagues at Infrastructure Canada. I hope that helps answer your question in brief.

    Thank you, Mr. Powlowski.

    I am now going to give the floor to Mrs. Gill.

    Mrs. Gill, you have two minutes and 30 seconds.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I have another question for Minister Hajdu, but Mr. Miller can answer as well.

    We talked earlier about demographics. I wanted to know whether housing forecasts take demographics into consideration.

    I was talking about First Nations, but I would also like to talk about Inuit. If I recall correctly, in 2017, a Senate committee said that as the needs for housing in Nunavut were increasing, the funding was decreasing. The watershed years, so to speak, were 2021 and 2022.

    I would like to know whether you have corrected that situation.

    Thank you.

    As a short answer, Madame Gill, yes, the planning does take into account growth projections.

    That answers my first question.

    However, I did ask two at the same time. My second question was about Nunavut.

    As I was saying, the funding curve was decreasing at the same time as the curve showing the demand for housing was increasing. That was in 2017, your party was in power at that time.

    I would like to know whether there is an up-to-date table showing the funding amounts allocated to housing needs. Those data could be useful for all communities. It would be helpful to be able to have data like that.

    We can certainly arrange to provide the data to the committee.

    Thank you very much.

    I have one last question, if I have time, Mr. Chair.

    We have also talked about remoteness and isolation. I was wondering whether that was considered as a factor. We talked about economic development and that, to build a house in Nunavut, or on an island, or 2,000 km away, the cost of materials and labour are not the same as in other regions. Clearly, $300,000 in one region is not the same amount as in others.

    Do you consider those factors in the grants you make available and the work you do?

    Yes, Madame Gill, there is isolation, the increased cost of delivery and materials in the north, and in fact some delays. In budget 2021, there was an additional $134 million related to the cost of COVID-related delays.

    Perhaps I can provide a little clarification.

    Ms. Hajdu, you say the North, but, in Quebec, isolated or remote communities aren't really in the North, even though the conditions are the same. I would like to know whether it applies to those communities as well.

    Thank you.

    It applies to northern and remote communities.

    Thank you very much, Mrs. Gill and Ms. Hajdu.

    We'll now go to our last speaker in this first panel, Ms. Idlout.

    Ms. Idlout, you have two and a half minutes.

    [Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

    ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᐊᐱᖅᖁᑎᖃᕐᓂᐊᕋᒪ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᒥᒃᓵᓄᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐊᖏᕐᕋᖃᕆᐊᖃᕐᓂᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᐃᖅᑕᖅᖢᖓᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᒃᑯᕕᖕᒥᑦ ᐱᑕᖃᕆᐊᖃᕆᐊᖃᕐᓂᕐᒥᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐃᓐᓇᖁᑎᒃᐳᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᐊᐅᓪᓚᖅᑎᑕᐅᖃᑦᑕᕆᐊᖃᕐᓂᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᓄᓇᒋᔭᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᓯᓚᑖᓄᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᕿᒪᐃᒋᐊᖃᖅᐸᒃᖢᑎᒃ ᐊᓯᖏᓐᓂᑦ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᕆᔭᐅᔭᕆᐊᖃᕐᒪᑕ. ᐊᑕᐅᓯᖅ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑕᐅᓪᓚᕆᖕᒪᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᐊᐅᓪᓚᖅᑎᑕᐅᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᑕᒎᖅ ᓲᖃᐃᒻᒪ ᐋᓐᓂᐊᖃᕐᓇᙱᑦᑐᓕᕆᔾᔪᑎᖏᑦ ᐱᑕᖃᙱᒻᒪᑕᒎᖅ ᓄᓇᒋᔭᕐᒥᓐᓂᑦ, ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᓐᓇᕆᔭᐅᔪᑦ ᕿᒪᒃᓯᑐᐃᓐᓇᕆᐊᖃᓕᖅᖢᑎᒃ ᐊᖏᕐᕋᕆᔭᕐᒥᖕᓂᑦ. ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᕗᖓ ᒐᕙᒪᖁᑎᒃᑯᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᐃᒃᑲᓐᓂᕈᖕᓇᕐᒪᖔᑦᑕ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᐊᖏᕐᕋᕆᔭᕐᒥᖕᓄᑦ ᐅᑎᕈᖕᓇᕐᓂᖅᐸᑕ ᐊᓯᐅᔨᒐᔭᙱᒃᑲᓗᐊᕐᒪᖔᑕ ᐊᖏᕐᕋᕆᔭᕐᒥᖕᓂᑦ.

    [Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

    I'd like to ask you about elder care and the housing needs that indigenous seniors and elders have.

    I've spoken many times about the complete absence of long-term care spaces and facilities, and the fact that elders in Nunavut have to leave their communities and support networks to receive care in other cities. One significant barrier to Inuit seniors fully receiving medical care is the fact that they will lose their home, or they won't have a home that they can return to, if they leave their home.

    What is your department doing to provide assurances to seniors and elders that they'll be able to receive care without losing their homes?

     Is that for me or Patty?

    Go ahead.

    Yes. Maybe you can complete my thoughts, Patty.

    First of all, it's unacceptable that we have to have elders flown outside their communities. It's very disorienting. Ottawa is a prime example of that. Many, including the premier's grandfather, are here.

    People should be able, at various stages of their elder years, to be in their homes. That's clear. The flexibility of the funding we've provided to the north is a partial answer to that, but there needs to be a more comprehensive approach as to how people can age in their communities. Especially since they're the carriers of the language, they have a lot to teach their kids and they should be surrounded by their own.

    We're not getting it right. We've taken a few steps to start to get it right. However, there are a number of factors that are aligned right now that allow us to take a more profound step on how care is given and provided closer to where people live.

    As to keeping their houses, I wouldn't have an answer to that. Perhaps Minister Hajdu would like to add something.

    Thank you very much.

    There are a couple of parts to this, and one would be the investment in renovations. They need to be flexible enough to consider accessibility, something that an unrelated but related minister, Minister Qualtrough, speaks about all the time. We should be making things accessible from the get-go, because we know that it will serve us well in terms of the needs of a population.

    The other piece is a model of care that is codeveloped and that has a reflection of the needs, from a cultural perspective, of communities to stay intact and to provide care to the degree that's possible at home, in the community.

    I agree with Minister Miller. We are a long way away from where we need to be in this regard. It is extremely difficult for families that are separated because of a lack of care in their home community, whether in a first nation or another remote community, like the ones you are speaking about, MP Idlout.

    Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

    That brings our panel to a conclusion.

    On behalf of the committee members, I'd like to thank Minister Hajdu and Minister Miller, and from the CMHC, Ms. Roset-Zuppa and Mr. Williams, her associate. Thank you very much for coming today and answering our questions.

    Madam Clerk, if our guests for the second panel are ready, we can proceed immediately.

    We'll do a brief sound check first here, sir.

    Very good. Thank you.

    The meeting is suspended.

    I call the meeting back to order.

    Thank you to our panellists who are joining us today. We have Regional Chief Cindy Woodhouse from the Assembly of First Nations.

    We also welcome Chief Lance Haymond, from the Assembly of First Nations Quebec- Labrador. He is accompanied by Guy Latouche.

    We also have Natan Obed, president of the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami with us today.

    It's the same procedure as usual, panellists and committee members.

    We'll start off with a five-minute presentation from Regional Chief Cindy Woodhouse.

    Chief, you have the floor for five minutes.

    Thank you.

    Good afternoon. Welcome to each and every one of you, first and foremost.

    I am coming to you live from the Treaty 1 territory here in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I am from a small first nations community where I was raised with my parents and my four brothers. It's called Pinaymootang First Nation. It's a small community in central Manitoba.

     I'm coming to you from the Assembly of First Nations. I am responsible for the housing portfolio.

    Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, meegwetch for inviting the Assembly of First Nations to address the focus of your current study, which is the effects of the housing shortage on indigenous peoples across Canada.

    First nations have been living with the impacts of a housing shortage for generations. First nations housing suffers from decades of federal underfunding and neglect, which has led to a host of negative outcomes in health, education and economic progress. There are regular news media reports of first nations trying to manage COVID-19 outbreaks amid overcrowded houses with no space for isolation. I suspect that you would want to focus, as the federal government and the Assembly of First Nations have been doing jointly over the last few years, on how to fix the problem.

    First nations are moving toward the control of our own housing as part of the solution to the housing crisis. Now the Minister of Finance must do her part, which is to fulfill Canada's treaty fiduciary and other obligations by making the needed guaranteed investment of $44 billion to meet the current first nations housing needs, plus an additional $16 billion to accommodate the population growth projected to 2040, for a total of $60 billion.

    First nations reasonably expect the full amount of that investment now as the federal government has, since 2016, repeatedly told first nations that it is committed to fully addressing the housing shortage.

    The Assembly of First Nations submitted to you the 2021 research report that we commissioned, which provides the breakdown of estimated costs to address overcrowding, replacement of units, repairs, renovations, servicing of lots and other costs. With the data now on hand on the real cost of the unmet first nations housing needs, there is no excuse for delay. Anything short of full funding will not result in first nations raising the standard of our housing to a level comparable to that of mainstream Canadians.

    The control by first nations of our own housing is a key pillar in the national first nations housing and related infrastructure strategy, a copy of which the AFN office made available to you and upon which I can expand during the question and answer period.

    The solution has several additional requirements of the federal government. One is to conclude as soon as possible agreements with those first nations that are willing to assume care, control and management of their housing. This process has already started. Another is to codevelop and design, with the Assembly of First Nations, sufficiently funded and first nations-exclusive federal housing programs for first nations that choose not to assume control of their housing in the short or medium term. Also needed is an additional federal investment of $21.37 billion in community infrastructure, without which additional housing is not possible in many cases.

    The Assembly of First Nations has requested an additional $2.6 billion of federal investments over the next five years for programs and services aimed at preventing and eliminating homelessness. The Assembly of First Nations is developing a national action plan on first nations homelessness that is based on first nations administering our own homelessness programs.

    The Assembly of First Nations is working with Infrastructure Canada to provide recommendations based on research and engagement of first nations on priorities for the first nations distinction-based funding stream of the federal Reaching Home program. The current budgets of the federal government homelessness programs for the first nations are insufficient compared to the immense needs. They must be adequately funded to be successful.

    In closing, Canada's obligation under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples includes full financial support for first nations to manage and control our own housing.

    I want to thank you for your time today. Meegwetch and I'm ready to take questions that you may have.

    Thank you very much, Chief Woodhouse.

    We'll have our second speaker now.

    Chief Lance Haymond, you have five minutes.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the members of the committee for the invitation.

    My name is Lance Haymond and I'm the chief of the Algonquin community of Kebaowek. I am the housing portfolio holder for the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador, and I also sit as the representative for Quebec on the AFN’s chiefs committee on housing and infrastructure.

    I'm coming to you from the unceded Algonquin territory of my community, which is located about 400 kilometres north of Ottawa.

    The effects of housing shortages on first nations peoples are numerous. The reason is quite simple. Housing has ramifications in all spheres of our society, including health and education, not to mention the efficient functioning of the economy. Links can be made with other aspects of society such as employment and community development.

    I don't need to tell you that housing is an important determinant of health. I would go even further and say that it is an important factor in the academic success of our children. It's very difficult for our children to study and do homework when they live in overcrowded conditions with multiple generations of their families living in the same house, vying for space, time and opportunity.

    It also contributes to economic activity in many of our communities. It provides much-needed employment. In short, affordable and adequate housing does more than reduce poverty and improve public health. It is a basic condition for personal and social development.

    The state of the housing situation in first nations in Quebec is something that has been well documented for over 20 years, since we started to gather our statistics in 2000. We have reliable data that indicates that 10,000 housing units should be added in Quebec to make up for the accumulated backlog, owing in particular to overcrowding, population growth, migration of members who, potentially, wish to live in the community, and the need to replace condemned housing.

    Our figures also indicate that 8,000 housing units require renovations or repairs, and that 9,500 residential lots must be serviced to build the new housing units. As Regional Chief Woodhouse indicated, the number nationally is staggering. For the Quebec region, the investment needed is $3.9 billion.

    It should be noted that we build on average around 225 housing units per year within our communities with regular funding levels. Instead, between 1,000 and 2,000 units per year should be built to eliminate the accumulated backlog, and we're projecting this over a period of five to 10 years.

    This portrait confirms the housing shortage that is experienced in many of our communities. I come back to the fundamental role that housing plays in society. This role is not currently being fulfilled due to the magnitude of the needs facing our communities.

    There is also an overrepresentation of first nations members in unenviable statistics. I am thinking, for example, of the overrepresentation of our people in the legal system, in homelessness, particularly in urban areas, and in cases of respiratory and other health-related illnesses and problems. All of this is certainly related, at least in part, to the gloomy portrait of housing that I have drawn for you.

    It is therefore not surprising that, in the report of the Public Inquiry Commission on relations between Indigenous Peoples and certain public services in Québec, in 2019, Commissioner Viens sets out this striking observation. He said that from the outset of the commission's work, the major housing crisis affecting aboriginal peoples has indeed “emerged as the epicentre” of many problems experienced by first nations and Inuit.

    There is not only a need for new investment. We need to tackle the root cause.

    It has been recognized that aboriginal communities face significant housing issues. We do not see, in the short term, that there will be a radical change in the housing situation of our communities. We face great challenges, some of which are as follows. Our population is young. It is increasing rapidly—in fact, four times faster than that of the province over a 10-year period, despite the fact that the housing shortage is slowing down growth in many of our communities. Another revealing figure is that the median age of our members in Quebec is 28, compared to 43 for the non-indigenous population. In some communities, the median age barely exceeds 20 years.

     The increase in our housing needs is supported by the growing demographics. The increase in construction costs is felt by everyone, but that particularly affects us because the capital budgets of our communities are not adjusted accordingly. Housing is a sector that is chronically underfunded.

    There would be so much more I'd like to tell you, but I'll stop here. It will be my pleasure to answer your questions and to tell you more about the particular challenges in remote regions, about our vision of the future and, more particularly, in relation to a way out of the crisis.

    Thank you for taking the time to listen to me. Meegwetch.

    Thank you very much, Chief Haymond.

    I'll now turn to President Obed. You have five minutes.

    Nakurmiik.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon to all the members of the committee.

    ITK is the national representational organization for Inuit in Canada, the majority of whom live in Inuit Nunangat, the Inuit homeland encompassing 51 communities across the Inuvialuit Settlement Region in the Northwest Territories, the entirety of Nunavut, Nunavik in northern Quebec and Nunatsiavut in northern Labrador.

    There are three things I hope you'll take from my brief presentation.

    First, the Inuit Nunangat housing crisis is decades long. It has persisted to the detriment of Inuit health, educational attainment and economic development. Decades' worth of data show that Inuit experience worse housing outcomes and attendant social and economic challenges than non-indigenous Canadians. This crisis has existed since the Government of Canada coerced Inuit into communities, in many cases after World War II, and has not abated since the advent of Inuit living in fixed communities in the way in which the Government of Canada had hoped that they would.

    Second, we need to continue the work of overturning colonial housing policies that systemically marginalize Inuit, who estimate that the cost of ending the Nunangat housing crisis is almost 10 times more than what the federal government is currently providing to Inuit.

    Third, we need legislative and policy changes that respect Inuit rights, including the implementation of comprehensive land claim and self-governing agreements and the enforcement of our human right to housing.

    Inuit and the Government of Canada jointly recognize that the lack of appropriate and affordable housing is a national crisis. This is the first statement contained in the Inuit Nunangat housing strategy, which was jointly developed through the Inuit-Crown partnership committee and released in 2019.

    In the early 1990s, the first aboriginal peoples' survey found that 40% of Inuit households were in core housing need. In 2016, little had changed. That year, 40% of Inuit were in core housing need compared with about 11% of non-indigenous Canadians. We need legislative and policy changes that respect Inuit rights, including the implementation of our land claim agreements, as I've said earlier.

    The federal housing policy has changed significantly since 2019 with the passage of the National Housing Strategy Act that recognizes the right to housing as a fundamental human right affirmed in international law, including by the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights ratified by Canada.

    While Inuit applaud this change, we were disappointed by the absence of recognition and commitment to enforce implementation of our human right to housing. Our right to housing must be recognized in Canadian law and given expression through meaningful distinctions-based policies and enforcement mechanisms that advance our right to self-determination.

    We must reinvest also in Inuit Nunangat housing delivery. Until quite recently the federal government's inadequate response to the perennial housing shortage in Inuit Nunangat was to build on its relationship with provinces and territories. That relationship changed in 2016 when the Government of Canada began directing distinctions-based housing investments towards Inuit through federal budgets. This was an important move, but $40 million per year over 10 years is not enough. Inuit estimate that it will cost almost 10 times more than this to meet the Government of Canada's housing commitment.

    In our view, the Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion will need to make substantial renewed investments in Inuit housing in order to meet his government's commitment to close the Inuit Nunangat housing gap by 2030.

    Without these legislative and fiscal tools, the Inuit housing and public health crisis will surely endure. We have heard of a shared intent and a level of ambition by the Government of Canada to end infrastructure deficits and housing deficits within indigenous communities by specific, targeted dates. We now call on the Government of Canada to put the framework in place and get the money flowing so as to make good on the shared ambition that we all have to end the Inuit housing crisis.

     Thank you, President Obed.

    We will now proceed with the first round of questions, beginning with the Conservatives.

    Mr. Schmale, you have six minutes.

    Thank you very much, Chair.

    Thank you, witnesses. Thank you for your testimony.

    I'll start with you, Chief Haymond. In your testimony, you laid out some pretty challenging conditions and the situation as a whole. You also said we need to get to the root cause.

    Can you expand on that a little bit? What are the root causes we have to address in order to help fix some of the challenges you laid out in your testimony?

    By the root cause I mean ensuring that every family who requires it has adequate and suitable housing that meets their needs. It's the foundational piece that's required. It's pretty hard to address the social ills, the addiction issues, the overcrowding and all of the other challenges that exist when families and individuals don't have a place to call home.

    The root cause of a lot of the challenges we see with our people, the migration to urban centres and the challenges brought on as people move out of the communities, is really representative of the fact that there's not adequate housing in our communities. They end up migrating out to urban areas and run into a whole host of new challenges. Our principal philosophy is that providing adequate and suitable housing will be one of those main issues where families and individuals don't need to worry. Then we can start tackling other issues, such as job creation and better health services and educational outcomes for our children.

    Again, when I talk about the root cause, a lot of the challenges we face as first nations people stem from the fact that we don't have adequate housing.

    Okay. I'm very sorry to hear that.

    Is some of the problem with the CMHC and the way they do their operations? I think we're hearing it from a number of people. Are you noticing issues, even barriers or blocks, to people accessing a mortgage, proper insurance and even loans for renovations? Are you seeing the CMHC as a potential organization that might need a bit of a redesign?

    The simple answer, quite frankly, is yes. Again, they've managed on-reserve housing programs for a number of years. They've remained static. They have not changed while our realities and our world have changed.

    Quebec's vision is not only to have additional investment. We're also looking at building our capacities within our communities and looking at new and innovative ways to meet our housing needs. I don't necessarily view CMHC or Indigenous Services as not doing what they need to do. In fact, in Quebec we have the only tripartite committee that exists across this country where we sit down with CMHC and Indigenous Services and try to find solutions that work for the first nations in Quebec. I view CMHC and ISC as partners in finding ways to move forward.

    Thank you, Chief Haymond. I have more questions for you, but I think I'm running out of time very quickly.

    Chief Woodhouse, you talked about negotiations with first nations who want control of their own housing. Can you give us an update on that?

    Thank you for the question.

    Yes, many first nations have created their own control of their housing. There are many different models out there, and I would encourage you to...or I'll get back to you with some different examples of the many first nations communities who want control and who continue to face many barriers when it comes to different parts: the lack of funding and many other issues.

    Thank you.

    Maybe I could pick up on that. You talked about barriers. I mentioned CMHC earlier and their lack of movement, I guess, on a changing situation on the ground. Maybe I'll get you to comment on that. Then I'll get to my next question.

     I'll say this. When it comes to CMHC, I think having them working more closely with first nations would be helpful. We hear time and time again from many first nations communities that they're trying to work through even the small details of things and they feel like they're going to be left out of the housing process or the allocation of housing, when some things can be fixed, I'll say. One of them could be that maybe sometimes people change reporting, or.... Even communication from CMHC towards our first nations community is very problematic. Sometimes I feel like....

    I'll say for Manitoba first nations that requesting CMHC to meet with them is very problematic sometimes. It's very frustrating when our first nations have diverse issues, but many of them are common issues for certain things, like when it comes to things like rapid housing. Some people felt that they were left out of rapid housing when they should have been included, or that because they were isolated, they were left out of it. That's just one example.

    I'll leave that there, but I think there's very much room for improvement and very much room to improve the communication between CMHC and first nations communities.

    Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

    We'll now go to Mr. Battiste.

    Monsieur Battiste, you have six minutes.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I would really like to start off by congratulating and acknowledging the leadership of Regional Chief Woodhouse in getting the historic agreement-in-principle on child and family services and Jordan's principle. I know that she worked hard on that, and I want to congratulate her for her efforts on that before I get to the questions.

    Also, I would like to acknowledge that I'm really happy to hear that there is an AFN chiefs committee on housing. I know that six minutes often isn't enough time to get your interventions in place, but we would be more than happy as a committee, if you have innovative approaches to housing, if you would please share that. For the next four meetings we will be doing this study, so you would have a bit of time—I would say a month—to prepare a document that can help us make better recommendations for those on reserve.

    My first question is around many of the challenges on the reserve that I'm hearing about from many of my constituents, such as Chief Leroy Denny. They talk about reserves being in place for sometimes 100 years, sometimes more than 80 years, where indigenous communities were centralized in the areas by government programs and now, many years later, they're running out of land. It's hard to find land on reserve to build houses even if they have the money.

    Chiefs, do you believe that a part of the solution is additions to reserve? How can we speed up the process of additions to reserve to reflect the growing population increases of first nations?

    Chief Haymond, I'll start with you.

    Thank you very much for the question.

    Again, I think it's really dependent upon the individual communities and the region. Most certainly, land or access to land becomes a problem. As you mentioned, when reserves were first created, many of them were only 10, 15 or 20 hectares in size, but demographic growth and legal decisions like Bill C-31 and Bill S-3 have added significant numbers of new people to our communities, and thus a requirement for additional lands.

    Additions to reserve is one way of acquiring those lands. It's quite complex, difficult and challenging, and I speak from experience. It took us 10 years to double in size from 20 hectares to 40 hectares, so I speak from experience. Additions to reserve may not be the only solution. I believe Minister Miller has spoken openly about giving land back to first nations, so we're really interested in and curious as to what that could look like.

    Again, as an Algonquin leader and as a community whose nation has unceded territory, we believe there may be other avenues to explore, to not solely rest on the process of additions to reserve, which, as I mentioned, takes too long, is too complex and, again, can be rather difficult when the provinces or the municipalities we're adjacent to decide they don't want to give up the land.

     I'm hearing you loud and clear that we need to speed up that process, and I agree with you.

    Before the treaties and before settlers arrived, indigenous people were able to access their resources, such as timber and many things like that, to create their own homes and to create their own furniture.

    Perhaps Cindy or Chief Haymond can answer this next question. Do you believe that housing is an aboriginal right under section 35 of the Constitution?

    I absolutely feel that it's a right. It also creates economic stability in many of our first nations. More importantly, my grandfather, Chief Richard Woodhouse, signed Treaty 2 in 1871, and we were always told we had the right to housing, education and all of these other things.

    It's an absolute right. More importantly, it's a human right. Every Canadian deserves a home, but we've given up a lot in this country. Many of our people are living in third world conditions, and that's unacceptable.

    The last question I'll ask is about housing. Housing on reserve is important for homes for people, but it's also important for creating jobs for carpenters, electricians and plumbers.

    Can you talk a bit about what housing means to first nations communities on reserve?

    Absolutely. I know of one community that created its own housing committee and its own housing development corporation within its first nation community. The spinoff on that was enormous to the families and to the community. It was also helpful in making sure they knew how to repair their own homes and knew how to keep the economy going. It ensured that their children, the young people who came after them, were becoming plumbers and electricians.

    It was about creating economic stability for themselves and their community. It meant so much to so many people. It's so important to create an economy within first nations communities, instead of always contracting it out.

    I'm hearing loud and clear that housing is also part of the economy.

    Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

    Mrs. Gill, you now have the floor for six minutes.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I would like to thank all the witnesses. I very much appreciated the testimony from Chief Woodhouse, Chief Haymond and Mr. Obed.

    I was struck by two words that I find very important.

    Chief Haymond, you used the word “epicentre”. Mr. Obed, you used the word “crisis”. We should keep both words in mind, not only for the entire duration of the study but also for when we are making our recommendations. As I see things, when we are talking about all the difficulties that First Nations can experience, we must absolutely retain the term “epicentre”.

    I will be talking about Quebec more but clearly, it is a concern for all indigenous First Nations and Métis everywhere in Canada.

    Last November, I took part in the Grand Economic Circle of Indigenous People and Quebec. I'd like to tell you a story to show the extent to which the housing issue is important for First Nations in Quebec.

    I wanted to take part in a number of the activities. A number of sessions were scheduled, including one on housing. All the chiefs told me that I should absolutely take part in the one given by the Assembly of First Nations Quebec‑Labrador, the AFNQL. I know that Chief Haymond was there. For the chiefs, it was an absolute priority. The effects were a major topic and Chief Haymond talked about them a great deal.

    Chief Haymond, could you tell us about the various solutions that are possible? You talked about underfunding.

     Could you tell us, for example, about housing strategies for Quebec? Is there another solution you would like to propose?

     Absolutely, and thank you for the question.

    While we hear and we speak about a national housing strategy, we're agreeable to that happening as long as there's room for regions like Quebec to take charge and take the lead in developing the housing solutions for our communities.

    With the data that we've been collecting since 2020, we don't simply just sit on it. We have developed, in concert with our chiefs and our housing administrators in our respective communities, a strategy that is built on three pillars. It touches a bit on what Mr. Battiste spoke about.

    Housing can be an economic development driver. We're looking at it more so in the sense that, as part of our Quebec strategy adopted by the chiefs in assembly, we need to develop capacities at all levels. Better housing administrators, chiefs and councils who understand the cost of housing, carpenters and plumbers—it's all of those opportunities that exist.

    We also have a second pillar, which looks at how we get more funds to address the needs but, at the same time, looks at more financing options. When we talk about CMHC and Indigenous Services, we are primarily talking about social housing. We're not really talking about home ownership, and there's an opportunity to explore that further with our communities.

    The final pillar of our strategy is that we need more autonomy. That autonomy means being able to make decisions that are in the best interests of the first nations in Quebec. We know the situation. We know our communities well. At the end of the day, Indigenous Services, CMHC and the Assembly of First Nations can profess to finding solutions, but to make them applicable and to implement them, they have to be designed within the strategy that's already been adopted by the chiefs in Quebec.

    As we said, the numbers and the needs are staggering, so we have a plan.

    Thank you, Chief Haymond.

    I have another question for you. It is about one effect of the housing shortage that we have not yet talked about. I know that the study is only just beginning, but I would like to bring up the issue of First Nations members having to leave their communities because of the lack of housing. Of course, homelessness is an issue, but I am thinking more holistically about everything that it could mean for the communities and their members when people have to leave.

    Thank you. Meegwetch.

    Yes. Again, the fact that we can't meet the on-reserve housing needs leads to a host of issues, including overcrowding, social issues related to addictions and other issues.

    Yes, we see our people gravitating toward an urban environment. It's unfortunate, because in some instances they lose contact with our communities and with the programs and services that are only available on reserve. When they leave, they're looking for a better place and a better outcome, but that's not always happening.

    There's ample opportunity to help us build the housing we need on reserve. At the same time, a lot of these folks who transition to urban areas end up being key personnel who, a lot of times, have skill sets that could benefit the community down the road. We lose access to this capacity as well.

    It's a double-edged sword. We lose good people and good people lose ties and access to programs and services only available to an on-reserve member.

    Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

    Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

    [Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

    ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ, ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥᑦ ᑕᒪᕐᒥᒃ ᐅᓂᒃᑳᖅᑐᑦ ᖁᔭᓕᔪᒪᕙᒃᑲ ᑐᓴᕐᓂᖅᑐᐃᓐᓇᐅᓵᕐᒪᑕ. ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᓇᑖᓐ ᐆᐱᐊᑦᒧᑦ ᐊᐱᕆᓪᓗᐊᑕᕐᓂᐊᕋᒪ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᖁᓪᓗᒍ. ᑐᙵᓱᒋᑦ. ᑕᑯᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᖁᕕᐊᓇᓪᓚᕆᒃᑐᖅ. ᐃᓅᖃᑎᓐᓂᒃ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᖃᑎᖃᖅᖢᓂᓗ ᑐᓴᕐᓂᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᑦ ᑐᑭᓯᑎᑕᐅᔪᓂᒃ ᐊᓯᖏᓐᓂᑦ. ᐃᓕᖕᓄᑦ ᓇᑖᓐ ᐊᐱᕆᓕᖅᐳᖓ. ᑕᐃᒪᙵᓂᑦ 2018-ᖑᓚᐅᖅᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᐅᖃᓚᐅᖅᓯᒪᒐᕕᑦ, ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᒡᖒᖅ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᕐᓂᒃ ᑐᓂᓯᐊᕐᓂᕋᐃᒑᖓᒥᒃ ᐃᓄᖕᓄᑦ ᑭᖑᕙᓯᒃᓯᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᑕᒎᖅ, ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑭᖑᕙᓯᒃᓯᒪᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐃᒡᓗᐃᑦ ᓴᖅᕿᙱᒃᓲᔭᓕᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᑕ. ᑕᐃᒪᙵᓂᑦ ᐅᖃᓚᐅᖅᑎᓪᓗᑎᑦ ᑎᕆᒡᓗᐃᑦ (ᐄᐳᕆ) 2019-ᒥᑦ, ᓄᕙᒡᔪᐊᕐᓇᖅ ᓴᖅᕿᓚᐅᕐᒪᑦ ᑖᓐᓇ ᓱᑲᐃᓪᓕᒋᐊᖅᑎᑦᑎᔪᒃᓴᐅᖕᒪᑦ. ᐃᒫᑎᒋ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᕙᒋᑦ ᐃᓕᓯᒪᔭᑦᑎᒍᑦ ᐊᑐᖅᓯᒪᔭᑦᑎᒍᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐊᓯᔾᔩᔪᖕᓇᖅᐸᑕ ᐃᓕᑉᐹᓪᓕᕈᑎᖃᕈᖕᓇᖅᐸᑕ ᐊᑐᖅᑕᐅᑦᑎᐊᒃᑲᓐᓂᕈᖕᓇᕋᔭᖅᑐᓂᑦ ᐃᓄᖕᓄᑦ ᑐᕌᖓᓪᓗᐊᑕᖅᑐᓂᑦ? ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ.

    [Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

    I'd like to thank all the speakers who came here. It was a very interesting presentation.

     I wish to speak to and question Natan Obed. I'm happy to see another Inuk here, and I'm happy to hear about Inuit issues.

    I'll ask you, Natan. In April 2019, you identified that funding was announced in federal budgets, but that has been slow to reach Inuit, which results in housing delivery delays. Since that statement, the COVID-19 pandemic occurred and slowed progress on housing development significantly.

    What specific recommendation do you have to change the colonial policies you mentioned in your great presentation?

    Nakurmiik, Lori. Thank you for the question.

    The challenges that we have had, not only with housing but other infrastructure dollars, is that, if there is an announcement in a federal budget or an announcement by the government for a specific initiative, the approvals in Treasury Board, the approvals of the terms and conditions, the agreements that then are made between Inuit land claim organizations or territorial or provincial governments and the federal government, all delay the ability to start on those housing or infrastructure projects. We're not talking about a month or two. We're talking about missing a window by a few weeks leading to a year of delay.

    When we talk about the concerns around flowing funds for infrastructure, especially for housing, the needs of the sealift season and the ability to procure the goods for that sealift season are make or break for whether or not we're able to have our shovel-ready projects—as the government loves to use that term—go to fruition in the timelines that the government would like to see.

    As I've said on a number of different areas, we have shared ambition. Inuit want something that the government wants. We try our best to figure out how to undertake the work in the way that the government demands, but often the government doesn't necessarily care about the limitations that Inuit and Inuit Nunangat have when it comes to deadlines and when it comes to terms, conditions and programs.

    We would love to see a more distinctions-based focus, and also, from an Inuit perspective, we need to have flexibility with the way funds are delivered to allow for the challenges that we face with remoteness and also with the costs. Our costs are much higher than in other places.

    As for reform or legislative changes, we have the federal housing legislation that was passed only a few years ago that has significant gaps in relation to distinctions-based indigenous perspectives. We need to revisit that particular act and ensure that there is a declared housing policy under part IV of the act that could include an explicit commitment to linking the right to housing for indigenous peoples as a judiciable right under the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

    [Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

    ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᑭᐅᑦᑎᐊᕋᕕᑦ. ᐱᖃᑖ ᐅᓇ ᓄᕙᒡᔪᐊᕐᓇᖅ ᐱᑕᖃᓚᐅᖅᑎᓐᓇᒍ ᓄᓇᓕᖕᓂᑦ ᐳᕙᒡᓗᖕᓂᖅ ᐊᒃᓱᕈᕐᓇᖅᑐᒃᑰᕈᑎᖃᑦᑕᓚᐅᕐᒥᖕᒪᑦ ᓴᖅᕿᔮᖅᑎᑦᑎᓪᓗᓂ ᓲᕐᓗ ᐃᒡᓗᑭᒃᓴᓗᐊᕐᓂᖅ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐃᒥᑦᑎᐊᕙᖕᓂᒃ ᐱᑕᖃᑦᑎᐊᖏᓐᓂᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐊᒥᓱᙳᖅᑎᑦᑎᒃᑲᓐᓂᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᒍᖅ ᐳᕙᒡᓗᖕᓂᕐᒥᑦ. ᐃᓱᒪᒋᔭᑦᑎᒍᓪᓕ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᑦ ᓈᒻᒪᒃᑐᒥᒃ ᐊᑐᓲᖑᕚᑦ ᓄᓇᓕᖕᓂᑦ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᐃᑦᑎᐊᕐᒪᖔᑦᑕ ᓲᕐᓗ ᐋᓐᓂᐊᖃᖅᑕᐃᓕᒪᓂᕐᒥᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐊᑦᑕᓇᖅᑐᒦᑦᑕᐃᓕᒪᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐊᖏᕐᕋᕆᔭᒻᒥᓐᓂᒃ? ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ.

    [Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

    Thank you for your reply.

    Here is my second question. Since long before COVID-19 impacted our communities and the world, tuberculosis has been a serious problem across the territory. Overcrowding and lack of clean water have been significant factors in the spread of tuberculosis.

    Is the government doing enough today to make sure that our communities can be healthy and safe in our own homes?

     In relation to tuberculosis, the very first time that the federal government ever publicly promised to work with Inuit to ensure that Inuit had the same level of social standard as any other Canadian was when it announced that it would work with Inuit to eliminate tuberculosis in Inuit Nunangat by 2030. In the history of Canada, there had never been a pledge by the Government of Canada to do anything like that for the Inuit population.

    We've received $27.5 million for a first iteration of TB elimination work. In ITK's pre-budget submission for this year, we put a $141 million ask for TB elimination work, in addition to a $3.2 billion, 10-year housing ask, which is directly related to the TB elimination work.

    Public health officials, medical experts and everyone within the TB field recognizes the explicit link between overcrowding and the risk of tuberculosis. We need to do more to ensure we can meet the 2030 target and that we can celebrate Canada's level of commitment, and our own level of commitment as Inuit, to put this as a priority, so that more can be done to ensure we do the right research that is necessary to understand where tuberculosis intervention needs to take place.

    We also need to do more to ensure that, from the knowledge we have from a global perspective, we're implementing this in the Arctic to eliminate TB by 2030.

    Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

    Colleagues, I'm going to try to get part of a second round in.

    We'll start with Mr. Vidal, for five minutes.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I want to thank all our witnesses as well for your excellent testimony. I have a few quick questions that I'll try to get in, in my time here today.

    As many of you are probably aware, we just finished a study on barriers to indigenous businesses in indigenous communities.

    Chief Haymond, in your opening remarks, you specifically talked about connections and links, and we've heard a number of discussions today around economic activity. I would suggest there is a direct link from some of these business successes to the actual housing and infrastructure gap. We heard lots about access to capital. We heard about utilizing own-source revenues in a concept called monetization to make an upfront investment in not only housing but other infrastructure.

    Chief Haymond, if I could start with you, would you comment on the fact that an indigenous-led solution to not only the housing crisis but also the infrastructure gap would be key to your community's pathway to economic prosperity? Maybe you could provide some ideas as to what that might look like in your experience.

    I'm sorry. Can you just repeat the question again?

    Could you comment on how an indigenous-led solution to the investment in housing, and also the infrastructure gap, would be key to your community's pathway to economic prosperity? Could you provide some ideas as to what that might look like specifically for your communities?

     There is definitely a socio-economic component to this. Own-source revenue and government funding will all contribute toward finding a global solution. The challenge for us is that, while it can create some economic opportunity, it may not solve all of our challenges. It most certainly is a way to look forward.

    Again, when we look at the socio-economic opportunity, we need to move beyond the dependence on social housing. When we talk about jobs and own-source revenue, what that really does is open up opportunities for us to invest directly in our housing and for our members to move away from social housing to being eligible for a mortgage. Then we begin a conversation about home ownership. It's an important transition that has to happen.

    In the meantime, not all communities are set up in the same way. We have a real different reality in Quebec, where we have isolated, urban and rural communities. The economic opportunities are more limited in those remote communities because of a lack of jobs and more dependence on social programs.

    Where we want to explore this new concept really is in all of the areas, but we know that for communities in more urban areas where they have access to jobs, we see the different types of housing and opportunities that exist. Again, there's work to be done, but it is part of the solution going forward.

    Chief Woodhouse and President Obed, I have a really limited amount of time left. Rather than ask a new question, I'm going to ask each of you if have any comment on that same question or if you might want to add to what Chief Haymond already suggested.

    Thank you, and thank you for that question.

    Absolutely. Many times our first nations communities.... Many Canadians don't know that we're not eligible for mortgages, even if we wanted to. It can be very frustrating when we're left out of the economics of our country because of the Indian Act. We have to ask for ministerial loan guarantees and all of these things.

    I don't know how much more I can add to what Chief Haymond has said. He's the expert in his community and for Quebec. I'll leave it there.

    I want thank you for your time today. Absolutely, we have a long way to go and we have a lot of things to learn from each other on moving forward. I look forward to that and to further discussions on many of these issues that can close the gaps that exist between Canadians and first nations people.

    Meegwetch.

    Thank you.

    President Obed, did you want to comment briefly or are you okay?

    I'll just jump in briefly.

    There are a few different components to that. First and foremost, the majority of Inuit live in social housing. Through the Inuit Nunangat housing strategy, we imagined we were going to have a diverse set of circumstances. Growing home ownership within our communities is going to help us in fiscal wealth and in economic development.

    Pushing to end the housing crisis will also allow for community-based businesses and regional businesses to benefit and get away from a south-north connection, where we get all of our resources and all of the expertise from the south. We have such an intermittent access to these developments in small communities.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Vidal.

    Mrs. Atwin, you have the floor for five minutes.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

    I'm going to use my time to pick up on an issue that my colleague MP Battiste brought up. It's around limited land.

    As the member of Parliament for Fredericton, I have the honour of representing two indigenous communities, which are St. Mary's First Nation and Oromocto First Nation. One is an urban community and the other is a much smaller kind of municipality, but they both have this issue of limited land as their communities continue to grow.

    Chief Haymond, perhaps I'll address you.

    Is this a limitation that you're also seeing in Quebec communities, and perhaps more broadly throughout Canada in your role? If so, what path would you suggest to address this, considering the long and cumbersome additions-to-reserves process?

     It's a good question. Again, I don't want to speak on behalf of all first nations across the country, because our realities are very different and there is leadership within those regions who will speak to what they need.

    In Quebec most certainly we are seeing that land is at a premium. With growing demographics and small communities, meeting housing needs is going to be a challenge. The only current way to increase the size of our communities is the additions-to-reserves process. Again, it's been reworked and improved. I think the work is still ongoing on this policy, so we need to find a different mousetrap.

    Additions to reserve will work in certain circumstances. Many first nations across this country are treaty first nations, so the land they require, I'm assuming, would be part of those discussions under treaty rights and treaty land entitlement. In Quebec, given that most nations have unceded territories, I think there is an opportunity we can expand and increase the size of our communities by sitting down and having discussions with Crown-Indigenous Relations about recognizing our rights and title, rather than going through a comprehensive claims process, a specific claims process or the additions to reserve.

    We believe that is a viable opportunity, but again, it takes political will. There is a third player that has to come into this discussion, and that's the province, which will not get involved in most instances. What they like to do when we talk about housing needs, particularly of our urban members, is to just simply shrug it off and say that it's a federal responsibility.

    Again, there are opportunities to expand our land bases, working in collaboration with the province and the federal government, and to quit being dependent on additions to reserve and these other processes that are complex, take time and have a huge host of challenges.

    Meegwetch, Chief.

     President Obed, for the Inuit Nunangat housing strategy, I'm just wondering what role the Inuit-Crown partnership committee plays in measuring progress on that. Do you have any general comments around the progress or lack thereof?

    We do have a mechanism within the Inuit-Crown partnership committee process where, once a year, we reflect on the work we have done to date and the progress we have made.

    On this particular strategy, there has not been as much progress made as we would have hoped. Part of that is because of the pandemic and because of the penultimate focus of the Government of Canada and of Inuit leadership on a COVID response over the last two years. There still is a lot of work to do, and we have committees in place and we are working through some of these challenges to ensure that we get the most out of all federal departments that have anything to do with the housing continuum.

    Too often we are told to go directly to Indigenous Services in relation to housing, when we know that CMHC has a wealth of experience in data collecting and summaries, and in understanding the housing market and its different parts. It isn't just the “dollars and cents” money situation that we're looking for. We are looking for the full breadth of knowledge that the federal government has to be applied to working on interventions and the housing crisis for Inuit Nunangat.

    How much—

    Thank you very much, Ms. Atwin.

    Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I would like to hand the floor over to Chief Haymond for the few seconds I have left. He may have something to add in terms of solutions or problems. Or perhaps he might wish to share his main recommendations with us.

    Thank you. Meegwetch.

     Thank you, Madam Gill. I think I would just reiterate what we spoke about. The state of the housing situation as we identified it presents several challenges, but it also offers us a share of the opportunities. We spoke about the socio-economic impacts that could result from the federal government funding the catch-up project that we have been discussing. The links between housing and other spheres of society have been demonstrated, so investing heavily in first nations housing could benefit us in other areas, especially in stimulating the economy and addressing some of the social ills and future social development of our communities.

    Our figures also show that every time the federal government has made additional investments in housing, for instance through Canada's economic action plan, the impact on the core needs has been visible. We can demonstrate in Quebec that it reduces core needs, which means that the impacts are being felt locally.

    I guess my final message is that we need stable, predictable funding and that the current funding levels are insufficient to meet our needs. When we're telling you we need to build 1,000 to 2,000 units per year and the current funding level allows us to do only 245, that speaks to a huge gap. Then when you take the data that Regional Chief Woodhouse spoke about, which has been diligently collected by the AFN over the past couple of years so that we have a national picture, you get a clear sense of the scope of the issue.

    Again, I think that for Quebec, home ownership is part of our solution, but not for all communities. We need to work and find different tools. Regional Chief Woodhouse spoke of ministerial loan guarantees. Here in Quebec, many first nations do not require ministerial loan guarantees as they have been able to establish relationships with banking institutions like the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal. These banks work with the communities to provide mortgages for our members who have the ability to repay. Subsequently, we will move the spectrum from dependence on social housing towards one in which we have a mix of social housing for those in need and home ownership for those who can afford it.

    Again, thank you very much, Madame Gill and other members of the committee, for inviting me and the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador to speak about the challenges but, more importantly, the opportunities and the plan we've developed.

    I could sit here and be very critical of the government and Indigenous Services and CMHC, but it is not helpful if we only criticize and we do not bring forward viable options and solutions that specifically meet the realities of first nations here in Quebec.

    Thank you. Meegwetch.

    Thank you, Chief Haymond.

    Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

    Our last speaker is Madam Idlout.

    Madam Idlout, you have two and a half minutes.

    [Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

    ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥᑦ ᓇᑖᓐ ᑭᐅᕌᓪᓚᓚᐅᕐᓗᓂ ᐱᖃᑎᖏᑦ ᒪᕐᕉᒃ ᑭᐅᖃᑕᐅᔪᖕᓇᖅᐸᑕ ᑖᒃᓱᒥᙵᑦ ᐊᐱᕆᔭᓐᓂᑦ. ᖃᓄᕐᓕ ᐱᖁᔨᕗᖔᕈᑎᖃᖅᐱᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᑦ ᑎᒍᒥᐊᕈᑎᖏᑦᑕ ᒪᓕᒐᖏᑦ ᐊᓯᔾᔨᖅᑕᐅᑦᑎᐊᕐᓂᐊᖅᐸᑕ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐱᖁᔨᕗᖔᕋᔭᖅᐱᓯ? ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᓯᔾᔨᖅᐸᓪᓕᐊᓂᐊᒻᒪᕆᒃᑯᑎᒃ. ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ.

    [Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

    First, I would like to ask Natan a question, and the other two speakers can reply to it as well.

    Are you confident that, if the federal government continues its current approach to housing development in Nunavut, there will be a significant difference in housing conditions within the next two years?

    Without significant and enhanced new investment, the 40% need for core housing most likely will increase. We have no plan right now other than the status quo. Yes, there have been investments in housing, but we have a growing population and we also have higher costs than we have ever had. Without a completely new investment—

    I'm so sorry to interrupt you.

    I'll just ask my question in English. What specific recommendations do you have to change the colonial policies that you mentioned in your presentation?

    First and foremost, the distinctions-based way that this government can work with first nations, Inuit and Métis, and also empowering Inuit self-determination as a part of these solutions, will go a long way towards getting to a better place when it comes to the respect for housing and for indigenous peoples.

    I also think that recognizing this as a national crisis and understanding that it is the obligation of the Government of Canada to fulfill not only the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples but also the international human right to housing, all comes into play, as well, when it comes to what we need to do for Inuit here in this country in regard to housing.

    Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

    That concludes our second panel.

    I would like to thank Regional Chief Cindy Woodhouse, Chief Lance Haymond, as well as President Natan Obed, for appearing before our committee today and providing their insights on a very urgent subject. It's certainly one, to quote one of you, that is the “root cause” of a great deal many other challenges.

    We very much appreciate your appearance today. Thank you very much.

    Thank you, committee members. Our meeting today is now adjourned.