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    <DocumentName>EVIDENCE</DocumentName>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebate">Standing Committee on Public Accounts</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Number">NUMBER 007</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Session">2nd SESSION</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Parliament">43rd PARLIAMENT</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Date">Thursday, November 19, 2020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="DateOtherLang">Le jeudi 19 novembre 2020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Institution">Standing Committee on Public Accounts</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Country">CANADA</ExtractedItem>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="HeaderTitle">EVIDENCE</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="HeaderDate">November 19, 2020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDocumentCategory">Committee</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitle">NUMBER 007</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleEn">NUMBER 007</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleFr">NUMÉRO 007</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaNumberNumber">07</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumDay">19</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumMonth">11</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumYear">2020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaCreationTime">2020/11/19 11:05:00</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaInstitution">House Of Commons</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateFr">Comité permanent des comptes publics</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateEn">Standing Committee on Public Accounts</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Acronyme">PACP</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerTitle">Chair</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerName">Mrs. Kelly Block</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="SessionNumber">2</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="ParliamentNumber">43</ExtractedItem>
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    <OrderOfBusiness>
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      <SubjectOfBusiness>
        <SubjectOfBusinessContent>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="05">(1105)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016595">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair (Mrs. Kelly Block (Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC))</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384300"> Good morning, everyone. I will call this meeting to order. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384301">Welcome to meeting number seven of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. The committee is meeting in public and is being televised today. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384302">Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to study “Report 3—Supplying the Canadian Armed Forces—National Defence”, of the 2020 spring reports of the Auditor General of Canada.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384303">Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of September 23, 2020. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you are aware, the webcast will show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384304">To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules as follows. You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French. For those participating via Zoom, before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your own mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384305">Should members need to request the floor outside of the time it has been given to them by me, you should activate your mike and state that you have a point of order. If a member wishes to intervene on a point of order that has been raised by another member, you should use the “raise hand” function. This will signal to the chair your interest to speak, and we will create a speakers list. In order to do so, you should click on “Participants” at the bottom of the screen. When the list pops up, you will see next to your name that you can click “Raise Hand”. This function creates a list of speakers for us.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384306">Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom microphone provided by the House of Commons is mandatory for everyone participating remotely who needs to speak.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384307">Of course, should any technical challenges arise, please advise me.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384308">I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016623">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264313" Type="47">Mr. Greg Fergus (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384309">On a point of order, Madam Chair, I'm going to take advantage of your invitation to raise issues of technical matters with you. I noticed that Mr. Green and I had difficulty logging on today due to the Zoom link.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384310"> I know that I've requested this before, but I'm going to ask, Madam Chair, if there is a possibility that when notices of meeting are sent out with the Zoom link, that can be immediately followed by the link with a pass code, so that we can easily find it in our emails. It just makes it a lot easier for us to put that information together in our own schedules so that we can arrive at the meeting on time.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016633">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384311">Thank you very much, Mr. Fergus. I do appreciate that intervention. I understand that the notice of meeting is probably more than likely circulated to more than the members who are attending and so—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016634">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264313" Type="47">Mr. Greg Fergus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384312">Perhaps we can resolve that by having two notices of meeting that go out: one for members and one for the rest.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016636">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384313">Okay. The clerk has just advised me that they do plan on changing how the information is sent out, and it will be as you have indicated, Mr. Fergus.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016637">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264313" Type="47">Mr. Greg Fergus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384314">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016638">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384315">You're welcome.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384316">All right. I will now welcome our witnesses. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384317">Joining us today from the office of the Auditor General are the Auditor General, Ms. Karen Hogan, and Mr. Nicholas Swales, principal. From the Department of National Defence, I would like to welcome Ms. Jody Thomas, deputy minister; Mr. Troy Crosby, assistant deputy minister, materiel group; and Major-General T.J. Cadieu, director of staff, strategic joint staff.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384318">For those of you who are speaking, you will have five minutes to make your opening statements.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384319"> We'll begin with you, Ms. Hogan. You have the floor. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016643">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan (Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384320">Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our audit report on supplying the Canadian Armed Forces.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384321">Joining me is Nicholas Swales, who was the principal responsible for the audit. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384322">The Canadian Armed Forces consist of 68,000 regular force members and 30,000 reserve force members. The government may call on them at any time to participate in Canadian military operations at home and abroad. To do so, the Canadian Armed Forces must be well equipped and trained. They must be supported by a supply chain that provides members with the materiel they need, when they need it. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384323">Our audit examined whether National Defence delivered materiel items requested by Canadian Armed Forces members in a timely manner while avoiding needless transportation costs. We found that military units received materiel—such as spare parts, uniforms and rations—late 50% of the time. High-priority items needed to meet critical operational requirements were delivered late even more often, namely, 60% of the time. These delays affected National Defence's capacity to perform its duties and manage its resources efficiently.</ParaText>
              <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="10">(1110)</Timestamp>
              <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6384324"> We found that delays were often caused by poor stock management. Minimum stock levels were often not set, and when they were set, stocks were below that level half the time. The warehouses expected to supply military units often did not have the materiel requested in stock. One third of the time, supplies had to be found elsewhere and rerouted through the supply chain. These situations created bottlenecks and increased delivery times.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384325">National Defence did not adequately forecast its needs for materiel to be able to position it close to where it would be needed, nor did National Defence have performance indicators to measure whether materiel was stocked in the right warehouses.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384326">We also found problems in prioritizing requests for military supplies. National Defence could not demonstrate that 65% of its high-priority requests were actually high priority. Unjustified priority requests put an excessive burden on the supply chain and incur extra costs.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384327">Moreover, we found that National Defence lacked the costing information necessary to make well-informed choices about transporting materiel within Canada. The costs of commercial shipments were available, but the costs of using military transport were not.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384328">We made three recommendations. National Defence has agreed with all of them and has shared its action plan with us. The plan includes actions and timelines for our recommendations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384329">Madam Chair, this concludes my opening remarks.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384330">We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384331">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016659">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384332">Thank you very much. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384333">We will now move to our next witness, Deputy Minister Jody Thomas. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016666">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas (Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384334"> Madam Chair, thank you. Good morning. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384335">Thank you for inviting us to discuss the findings of the Auditor General's Report, “Supplying the Canadian Armed Forces”. I would like to thank the Auditor General for looking into the issue and for her three recommendations. As she noted, National Defence agrees with them all. Supplying our troops is a defence team effort today, as already noted by the chair. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384336">I'm joined by Major-General Trevor Cadieu, director of staff for the strategic joint staff, and Mr. Troy Crosby, assistant deputy minister, materiel, for the Department of National Defence. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384337">A fundamental part of our defence policy, “Strong, Secure, Engaged” is ensuring that our people in uniform have the right equipment to do the challenging work our country asks of them. A strong supply chain is critical to that. As COVID-19 has reinforced for all of us, a robust, effective supply chain is a strategic enabler for the Government of Canada and, in a national crisis, is therefore a lifeline, and the lack of one is a strategic risk.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384338">More than that, a strong supply chain needs continuous oversight and evaluation, as does any critical capability across all military environments of land, sea, air and cyber. That is why, in 2019, the chief of the defence staff and I gave joint direction to establish a strategic supply chain governance committee within National Defence. It is overseen by Mr. Crosby and Major-General Cadieu, ensuring a collaborative and fully engaged approach. The committee also ensures that National Defence has oversight and accountability for the overarching direction of supply chain management.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384339">It is important to understand that the updates I am giving today fit firmly within a much larger strategic approach to supply chain management, currently under way within the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384340">As the committee is well aware, supply chain challenges have been a matter that National Defence has been wrestling with for many years, but there has been progress. In fact, since we tabled our inventory management action plan in 2016, the Auditor General has positively highlighted our progress in implementing the progress on time, every year, as part of the public accounts audit. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384341">We have a lot more work to do. Meaningful change takes time, particularly when addressing deficiencies that have built up over decades. While the challenges identified are real, you can be confident that we always ensure that our Canadian Armed Forces members in active operations have what they need to do their jobs. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384342">To the report itself, we agree that National Defence must have the right materiel in place at the right time and appropriate metrics in place to monitor whether stock levels are sufficient. We began two comprehensive reviews this summer to help address our materiel planning and forecasting challenges. One review will look at improving our inventory availability benchmarks. Doing so will give us a better indication of the health of our supply chain operating environment. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384343">The second review is a more sizable project. At a high level, the end goal is to create standardized processes and leverage advanced tools in support of materiel planning and forecasting across the materiel group. Both reviews will be completed by June 2022 and will include implementation plans. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384344">We're also in the process of ensuring that high-priority requests are only made when necessary and that these classifications are justified. First, we are reinforcing policy guidelines on how to properly classify requests with responsible personnel at our wings, bases and commands. Changing behaviour is as difficult as changing systems, and this is an area of specific focus. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384345">At the same time we have begun a thorough assessment of how to reimagine the freight distribution system to improve efficiency and optimize costs. In February 2020, National Defence awarded a contract to PricewaterhouseCoopers Canada to identify potential options to modernize our supply chain network design. I note that a review of this scale has not been undertaken since early 2000. We are currently evaluating their initial recommendations. As we gain an understanding of how we can improve our systems, we will revise and clearly communicate guidance on costs and selecting shipping methods to our personnel. Our goal is that improvements to the distribution system will be complete by April 2024, paying particular attention to performance measurement and oversight.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384346">This entire effort will be a multi-year process, but we are committed to getting it right so that our system is efficient and ready to support the Canadian Armed Forces. We are very open and willing to report back to this committee on our progress.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384347">Thank you, and we would be very pleased to take your questions.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="15">(1115)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016742">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384348">Thank you very much, Ms. Thomas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384349">We will now go to Major-General Cadieu.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="11016745">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">Major-General T. J. Cadieu (Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384350"> Madam Chair, I do not have any opening remarks. Deputy Minister Thomas is representing both the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. I'd be happy to answer any questions that you might have. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016747">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384351"> Thank you very much for that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384352"> We will move directly to our rounds of questioning. Our first round is for six minutes, and I would like to welcome Mr. James Bezan to the committee today.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016752">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan (Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384353">Thank you, Madam Chair. It is indeed a pleasure to be able to join everyone.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384354">First, I want to thank the Auditor General and her office for this report. The great work that your office continues to do is definitely improving the functions of our military but also of the government across all spectrums as well. Thank you so much.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384355">I want to thank our officials from the Department of National Defence for being here and for addressing the concerns that have been raised by the Auditor General.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384356">I'm going to start off my first bit of questions, Madam Chair, with the Auditor General.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384357">In your report, you say that, overall, supply chain management by National Defence is “poor”. If you were to grade it as a schoolteacher, would that be a D, a D- or an F? I'm just trying to get a handle on how poor you consider the supply chain management to be at this point in time.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016769">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384358">There's a reason I became an auditor: so I didn't have to grade individuals.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384359">It's hard to say. If you look at some of the areas where we identified some weaknesses, we saw late deliveries, poor stock management and inefficient processing, but we also saw, in one of the case studies that we put in the chapter in exhibit 3.3, that the department finds ways to find solutions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384360">What we noted is that it's a very inefficient way of running a supply chain. It depends on what you want to grade, I guess. It's an ineffective use of the supply network, but they find solutions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384361">It's a hard grade to give.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016813">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384362">Okay. I appreciate that, Ms. Hogan.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384363">You said that there have been a lot of high-priority requests that weren't actually high priority. Can you give us an example of what that might entail? Was it, for instance, that somebody said, “okay, I need this right away”, but it wasn't actually required to be there right away?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="20">(1120)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016817">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384364">The definition of high priority is one that was set by the department. I think it depends on the circumstances of the situation, obviously.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384365">I might ask Mr. Swales, who is with me, if he has some specifics.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384366">We simply looked at whether the high priorities arrived on time. What we saw is that in 60% of the cases they were late.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384367">Nick, did you want to add to that?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016822">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="190496" Type="28">Mr. Nicholas Swales (Principal, Office of the Auditor General)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384368"> I guess I can add a little bit. We were asking for the information that justified the high-priority cases.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384369"> We would find instances where there was no explanation or, also, instances where, on reviewing the information that was provided to us, the units themselves said, yes, we don't understand why that was a high-priority item, because, on review, the circumstances in which it was being asked for didn't seem to justify that. Those were some of the kinds of scenarios that we were observing.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016829">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384370">In the report in paragraph 3.23, you talk about why late delivery “can impede the military's ability” and you specifically mentioned its ability to:</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384371">
                <Quote>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2"> conduct training operations as scheduled</QuotePara>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">be efficient in its missions and operations</QuotePara>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">act quickly to respond to emerging [threats] </QuotePara>
                </Quote>
              </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384372">I know that Ms. Thomas said in her opening comments that they “ensure that our [CAF] members in active operations have what they need to do their jobs”. I want to make sure that we square the circle here.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384373">Were you able to confirm that for those who are currently deployed on operations—such as Operation Impact in Kuwait, Iraq and Lebanon, or in Palestine, or on NATO Operation Reassurance and stationed in Latvia, or on Operation Unifier in Ukraine—there were no delays in getting materiel into the hands of our forces who are currently deployed?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016840">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384374">Perhaps Ms. Thomas will want to add to this, but what our audit looked at was the actual mechanics of the supply chain from requests to delivery, not at the impacts it might have had operationally. I do believe that question would be best answered by someone at National Defence or in the Canadian Armed Forces.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016857">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384375"> Our belief is that of course it is critical that equipment get to those who are deployed at all times to ensure that they are never at risk during the deployment, and that's everything from spare parts to food to uniforms to their mail. It is an essential part of overseas operations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384376">General Cadieu can speak to operations, but we believe that we ensure that operations do receive the equipment they require. There are complexities in the system, and mistakes are made. There is absolutely no doubt about it, but it is a complex operation.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384377">If you take a ship at sea as an example during Operation Reassurance, and the ship needs something, you're often sending it to the next port they're going to be into, or it is going out by helicopter. The difficulty and the complexity of ensuring that something gets to an operation is not as simple as sending out mail.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016872">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384378">I appreciate that, Ms. Thomas, because definitely for deployed troops especially our own.... We have our frigates in operations. It is very challenging. I get that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384379"> I guess this is both for you and for the Auditor General's Office. When you look at the management of that supply chain, you've got a combination of procurement being done by National Defence as well as being done by military personnel. Is there kind of a breakdown in communications on getting those supplies?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016877">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384380">I'm sorry, Mr. Bezan, your time is more than up. Perhaps we can come back to that question.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016879">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384381">I'll address that in my next round. Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016881">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384382">Great. Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384383">We will move onto Ms. Yip for six minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016883">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264316" Type="47">Ms. Jean Yip (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384384">Thank you all for coming. I look forward to hearing your answers today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384385">I would like to direct my questions to Ms. Thomas and Major-General Cadieu. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384386">In 2016, the Auditor General recommended that DND develop supply chain performance metrics and review how stock levels for materiel were established. Why hasn't that been fixed? It's now four years later. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="25">(1125)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016888">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384387">I'm going to turn to assistant deputy minister of materiel, Troy Crosby, to answer that because that's more on the materiel management side of things. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384388">The metrics in question are under development now. In 2017, we launched a 10-year program to repair, improve and modernize the supply chain, and we are three years into that program now. Some of it has to do with developing the standards and how we will measure, and some of it has to do with modernizing the system through an IT approach to things, because we do so much that is manual and we use multiple systems right now. There's no one input that says let's develop KPIs, and it is then a problem solved. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384389">In fact, there are multiple layers to the situation, and what needs to get done is to ensure that we are providing the performance metrics, that we have reasonable standards, that we have reasonable processes and that we have an IT system to manage it. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384390">Troy, would you like to continue?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016900">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby (Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel Group, Department of National Defence)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384391"> Thank you, Deputy. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384392">What I'll add is that, at this point, our focus has been on stock out rates, the occasions where there is zero stock available to respond to a demand. Over time, as we bring in new technology, we have access to the information and we could really measure our performance, we're going to turn our minds more to performance metrics focused on reliability, on responsiveness of the supply chain, on optimizing where our inventory is located and on the accuracy of our stock-taking counts. All of those together will allow us to improve our performance in responding to the demands of the Canadian Armed Forces. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384393">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016903">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264316" Type="47">Ms. Jean Yip</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384394">I can see in the action plan that there is an expected completion date of December 31, 2028. It seems like a long time to be integrating your capital software project, given that the technology, as you said, needs to be improved now.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016909">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384395"> I'll go back to my colleagues, and ask them to expand on this, because they are leading the effort.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384396">We're talking about 500,000 orders per year, 460 million items. There is complexity in the amount of materiel we're talking about. There is complexity in the number of locations from which it is managed. There is complexity in ensuring we have one system, from ordering to delivery, and performance metrics rather than the multiplicity of systems we use now.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384397">We have decided to understand the problem before we rush in, and try to fix it. There have been attempts in the past, and those attempts have only looked at one or two aspects of the complexity, the range and depth of the problem. If we're going to do this, we're going to do it right. We have committed to timelines, and firm milestones on when things are going to get done, and we're happy to report back on those.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384398">Troy, would you like to add anything else?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016916">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384399">Some of the steps between now and 2028 have been mentioned. That culminates with the delivery of an enterprise-wide resource management information system that will allow us to make all that information come together and measure the performance effectively.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384400">Between now and then, we'll grow across a number of fronts, as the deputy minister mentioned. For example, an automatic information technology program is coming to fruition. It was approved in the summer of 2019.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016921">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264316" Type="47">Ms. Jean Yip</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384401"> I have a limited amount of time, so I want to get to my next question, which touches on what Mr. Bezan was saying with regard to the international level, taking it down to the more local level, and ensuring the military has sufficient stock to perform its operations and missions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384402">Given the delivery challenges, how has the COVID pandemic impacted the supply chain?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016924">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384403">COVID has impacted many aspects of the work in the Department of National Defence, just as it has with every other aspect of business and life in Canada. Some of the work on this project has been slowed. However, while we sent employees home to stop the spread, we have kept people in warehouses and supply depots working—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="30">(1130)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016931">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264316" Type="47">Ms. Jean Yip</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384404">Sorry. This past summer members of the CAF, through Operation Laser, were helping many vulnerable communities, like long-term care homes. Did they have enough supplies? Did they receive their supplies on time?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016937">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384405">They did. I'll ask Major General Cadieu to respond, as he was critical in leading Op Laser.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016941">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384406">Ultimately, this is about better supporting men and women deployed on operations. Specific to Operation Laser, both our chief of the defence staff and deputy minister issued clear direction that before any CAF personnel integrated into operations to support our most vulnerable Canadians in their time of need, they'd have the personal protective equipment required for those operations, and that happened for those personnel integrating into long-term care facilities.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016946">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384407">I will now go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016947">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384408">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384409">First, I want to acknowledge my colleagues and the witnesses here today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384410">Ms. Hogan, I'm pleased to see you again. Thank you for being here.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384411">This is a very important topic. I took the time to carefully analyze the documents.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384412">My first question is for you, Ms. Hogan. To say the least, your report goes into great detail. It helps shed light on situations that the average person would never have been able to see. Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384413">What do you think about National Defence's various responses to your recommendations? What's your level of confidence? Are you satisfied with the follow-up? </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016956">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384414">As the National Defence officials said, we received an action plan in response to the recommendations in the report. We also have an action plan, which addresses the recommendations that we noted during our financial audits of the Public Accounts of Canada.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384415">We're satisfied with the measures implemented to address the recommendations in the report. Of course, we can't comment right now on the progress made. We audited the department's progress in relation to the action plan and the recommendations in the Public Accounts of Canada.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384416">We conduct a follow-up each year. At this point, we're satisfied with the department's progress. The action plan is long, and it will take years to follow up on it.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016962">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384417">Thank you for the clarifications, Ms. Hogan.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384418">You said that the follow-up will take a long time. I can understand that changing a supply chain, especially in the military, requires planning and time.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384419">The action plan was developed in 2016. The deadline for the implementation of the expected corrective measures could be 2024, or even 2028. Do you find these objectives realistic, or would greater diligence be required in the months and years ahead?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016964">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384420">The department would be in the best position to tell you whether the date is realistic when it comes to implementing all the improvements that National Defence must make.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384421">We like to see progress. For several years, when we commented on the Public Accounts of Canada audits, the department didn't follow up. We were pleased when they developed a very detailed plan in 2016.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384422">We think that it's good to make progress each year.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016970">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384423">Thank you, Ms. Hogan.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384424">I completely agree with your views on progress. We want results. However, we must measure this progress to determine whether there are actually results.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384425">I'll turn to the witnesses from the Department of National Defence.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384426">Can Ms. Thomas or her colleagues tell us more about the dates for the action plan? Are they realistic? Is greater diligence required? I'm trying to understand this. In terms of changing supply chains, we certainly aren't talking about retail operations, but rather military operations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384427">How could we ensure that the follow-up is conducted before these dates?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="35">(1135)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016976">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384428">Thank you for the question.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6384429"> I am always pushing for things to be done more quickly. It is frustrating in this department how long activities and responses, remedies, solutions to issues raised by the Auditor General or our own internal audit, and our own internal process review can take. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384430">In this particular case, because of the complexity of the system, and the moving from essentially multiple, analogue, handwritten systems and very simplistic databases to one end-to-end solution, including the transportation aspects of it, this is reasonable.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384431">What we do commit to is reporting back to this committee on our progress. We communicate regularly with the Auditor General on our progress. Our goal is to do it more quickly. We'd like to ensure that we do it correctly.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016983">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384432">Thank you for the clarifications, Ms. Thomas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384433">In your opening remarks, you referred to the challenges associated with the current COVID-19 pandemic. We know that the audit dates back to 2017 and that there was no pandemic at that time.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384434">How can you explain the issues identified by the Office of the Auditor General throughout the chain of command at National Defence? Could a lack of internal communication explain these gaps in the supply chain? Could other issues be involved?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016990">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384435">I'll invite my two colleagues to comment, but there's a range of problems: old systems, processes we have not updated, no performance measurements, and old processes in stockrooms and storerooms, where we're not always sure what's in the facility.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384436">The complexity of ensuring every location around the country can equip, repair and supply every piece of equipment is difficult. We've tried to do that. What we have to do now is look at automating the system. We need databases where we can find out where things are, and how quickly we can move them around the country. We need to ensure we have centres of excellence that supply certain parts of the armed forces. That is the way to go in the future.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016997">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384437">We will now move to Mr. Green.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11016999">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green (Hamilton Centre, NDP)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384438"> I want to begin by thanking my colleagues on this committee, who reached out with passwords, and with links to this meeting. I had technical difficulties, but our world-class IT staff got me back on pace.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384439">I'm going to dive right in, and ask the question that's on the minds of perhaps the media, friends and family who are watching, and certainly my community.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384440">The government has touted the vaccine distribution program being delivered by the military, and yet, we're hearing in this startling audit report that all processes are in storerooms and stockrooms. Action plans are leading into 2024 and 2028.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384441">I'm going to ask a very direct question to members of the Department of National Defence. What conversations have they had on military preparedness to respond to the tens of millions of critical vaccines that are supposed to be distributed across the country to the provinces, long-term care facilities, hospitals, pharmacies, in order to combat COVID, which we are experiencing right now as the single most severe national threat to Canada?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017017">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384442"> Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384443">I'm happy to begin that answer, and then I'll turn to General Cadieu because he is a member of the ADM working group that is looking at vaccine distribution.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384444">The Canadian Armed Forces will potentially be part of that solution. There are multiple vaccines being looked at, as everybody is aware, and each requires a different solution for distribution. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384445">What is critical to understand is that vaccine would not come into the Canadian Armed Forces system. What we would use is the bar-coding technology  or whatever distribution technology the owner of the vaccine uses. We would be a conduit for moving it, either from a logistics planning perspective or from a personnel perspective—actually unloading planes or potentially, our own aircraft. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384446">That's all under review now. I have asked—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017025">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384447">May I interject and ask at what point this review started? How long has your department been working with the various health agencies and Public Services and Procurement on preparing for the distribution of this vaccination?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11020551">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384448">The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces have been working—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="40">(1140)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017029">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384449">If I may, I just want to remind our members that while I know we are very interested in what is happening today as a result of the uncertainty we are living in, we need to focus on the report of the Auditor General. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384450">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017040">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384451">Madam Chair, with all due respect, the revelations that we are getting in the conversations around the lack of preparedness on logistics preparation are very much in keeping with the audit. The fact that they are talking about follow-up plans in 2024 and 2028—if we are not laser-focused on their ability to deliver socks and uniforms and nuts and bolts, then what are we looking at in terms of COVID vaccinations?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384452">I will go back to the question, respectfully. Our mandate is broad, Madam Chair, so back through you to the Department of National Defence, could you please answer this question? </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017042">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384453">Madam Chair, I'm pleased to answer. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384454">I am very confident that the Canadian Armed Forces would be able to participate, lead or be a part of any vaccine distribution should we be asked to do so.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384455">We have been working with the Public Health Agency, PSPC, Health Canada and other government departments since the beginning of the pandemic to assist in any way possible. Some of that you saw in the long-term care facilities. Now planning is under way for vaccine distribution. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384456">Canadian Armed Forces were very heavily involved in PPE distribution from the beginning of the pandemic. I'm going to turn to Major Cadieu to explain to you some of the things that have been done and could be done if we were asked to distribute vaccine. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017055">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384457">Major Cadieu, just as a caveat to that question, was the military also involved in the national emergency strategic stockpile distribution, or not at all?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017062">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384458">I want to start by reinforcing that our number one priority in the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence is to get the materiel and equipment to the men and women who are conducting operations on behalf of the Government of Canada. I can say categorically that we get that right most of the time. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384459">Consider the complexity of the challenge. We move about a half billion items of inventory and materiel. We procure it. We warehouse it. We move it out to the teams that require it. Often those teams are not static. Once we acquire a piece of equipment and materiel, we are responsible to look after it for the life cycle of that equipment, so we take that very seriously. For CAF members who are deployed on operations, we deliver each and every time. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017093">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384460">This is your mandate. I need to get directly to the question. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384461">The Auditor General's report, section 3.11 says:</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384462">
                <Quote>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2"> We found that a third of some 1 million requests were rerouted. Rerouted requests resulted in increased use of commercial transportation....</QuotePara>
                </Quote>
              </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384463"> I put to you, if these were COVID vaccinations that were being rerouted, we'd have a problem.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384464">How do you comment on that?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017096">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384465">We have taken direction from our deputy minister and our chief of the defence staff to start getting at some of these issues now. The deputy minister referred in her opening remarks to the fact that we have established in this department a defence supply chain oversight committee. The committee comprises both the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence, providing oversight to that supply chain. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384466">Our vice chief of the defence staff, on the direction of our deputy minister and our chief of the defence staff, has made this supply chain reform one of our priorities. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384467">We also recognize that getting at this needs us to do more than just address symptoms. We have to address long-term causes, so we are very focused on people, processes and systems. We could speak to some of those things. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017107">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384468"> Thank you—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017109">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384469">Last question—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017114">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384470">No, thank you very much.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017116">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384471">As a point of order, Madam Chair, I just have a point of order for you to clarify. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384472">When you intervene on my time, does the time stop? Because quite frankly, your editorial on my intervention took away from my time. I'm saying that with the utmost respect, Madam.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017118">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384473">One moment, Mr. Green.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384474">All right, we did not stop the clock, but I'm happy to give you another 30 seconds.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017121">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384475">Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. I'm a New Democrat and I fight for every second.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384476">Through you to National Defence, given the nature of these reports, were you surprised by the information found by the Auditor General, or were you aware of how badly the supply chain management system was operating?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="45">(1145)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017123">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384477">We were aware that there were problems in the supply chain, and that's why a 10-year project was begun two years ago in order to rectify the problems and to look at automating the system. We have a new project, AIT, which is a bar-coding project in definition. We have been looking at the delivery routes and we've been looking at KPIs. That's why the oversight committee was put in place before the Auditor General's report came out. The Auditor General's report confirmed what we knew and what we were already beginning to work on.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017130">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384478">Thank you so much.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017132">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384479">I will now move to our second round of questioning, and the first speaker is Mr. Bezan for five minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017134">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384480">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384481">I'm going to continue on with that line of questioning on the vaccine distribution. Essentially, I think if you look at the Auditor General's report, Madam Chair, it talks about the problems being around materiel management, not necessarily logistics. As I told Major-General Cadieu when he made this announcement at the national defence committee on Monday, I have full confidence in our armed forces and the Department of National Defence getting this right in the COVID distribution. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384482">In the Auditor General's spring report, she says in paragraph 3.30 that the delays have affected the capacity to perform duties of the Canadian Armed Forces, and we know that there are a number of requests, 162,000 requests, that were late over a year. Do any of those delays in requests for materiel affect the logistical ability of the Canadian Armed Forces to manage the logistical delivery of vaccines across this country?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017141">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384483">I would say unequivocally, no. There is no impact on the ability to deliver vaccines should the Canadian Armed Forces be asked to do so.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017142">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384484">When we are looking at the delivery of vaccines—and I know that this is still all at the discussion level right now, the planning is in place—we're talking that we're still 60 to 90 days out from receiving those first vaccines. Are there going to be specific resources that are going to be dedicated to this effort from the Canadian Armed Forces, such as outlined in the Auditor General's report, to ensure that these deliveries happen on time?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017152">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384485">There are a number of oversight committees and working groups, and it's busy, heavy-lifting work to look at this from deputy minister and chief of the defence staff levels through the system. Major-General Cadieu sits on one of those committees, and he is very actively involved with PHAC on the logistical planning, so I'll ask him to give you some of the detail of what's being examined.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017165">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384486">The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces are currently supporting the Public Health Agency with a detailed logistical planning effort to help better understand what the requirements are going to be for the eventual rollout of the COVID-19 vaccines. That work is still ongoing. The role that the Canadian Armed Forces is going to play or could potentially play in the rollout is yet to be confirmed.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384487">What is almost a certainty is that no one entity in this nation is going to be able to take on this challenge independently. Again, various options are being considered right now, but the ultimate solution will likely be a combination between public and private collaboration in terms of getting this vaccine to where it needs to go in support of Canadians.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017171">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384488">Madam Chair, through you to Major General Cadieu, is this a named operation yet by National Defence?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017173">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384489">Since the start of the pandemic, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence have been trying to do our part alongside whole-of-government partners. That includes through integration with the Public Health Agency at the start of the pandemic under the rubric of Operation Laser—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017176">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384490">Okay. This would be part of Operation Laser, then?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017178">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384491">Madam Chair, at this time we do not yet know the extent of it or the role the Canadian Armed Forces could play in the actual rollout of the COVID vaccine. The logistical planning support and the liaison currently being provided to the Public Health Agency are under our existing operations.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="50">(1150)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017184">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384492">Madam Chair, one of the things that has been reported as a major restraint on being able to disperse these vaccines when they start arriving is freezer space and freezer capacity and having those located in the right place. The Pfizer product they're talking about needs to be stored at -75°C.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384493">Will National Defence be expected, using the defence procurement act, to acquire that type of freezer capacity to help with the logistical distribution of COVID-19 vaccines?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017188">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384494">We haven't gotten into that kind of a request or discussion that I am aware of. We do have an RFP, or a request, out now on Canada Buyandsell to look at some storage capability, but that's for internal Canadian Armed Forces use when we get to the point of vaccinating our own troops. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384495">In terms of national requirements, we've not been asked to participate or take any action that I am aware of, unless it's happening in the working group. I'll ask General Cadieu.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017195">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384496">Thank you very much. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384497">We will now move to Mr. Sorbara for five minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017198">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264315" Type="47">Mr. Francesco Sorbara (Vaughan—Woodbridge, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384498">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384499">Welcome, everyone.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384500">First, I want to say thank you to the Canadian Armed Forces. During the COVID-19 pandemic, a number of them were at Woodbridge Vista, a long-term care facility in my riding, and performed duties that were exemplary.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6384501">I want to thank them.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6384502">When I read the Auditor General's audit, I went through the details of the audit objective. I'd like to turn my attention to what the audit objective was in terms of this being an “independent assurance report”, if I can use that term, and go back to what this committee is focused on.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384503">Deputy Minister, in your opening comments, you had this reference in your notes:</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384504">
                <Quote>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">In February 2020, National Defence awarded a contract to Price Waterhouse Coopers...to identify potential options to modernize our supply chain network design. I note that a review of this scale has not been undertaken since early 2000.</QuotePara>
                </Quote>
              </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384505">I found that very surprising. For most organizations, their supply chains are a critical component of the organization's success or failure—if not the most critical—be it a retail grocer or National Defence. Can you maybe elaborate on the terms of reference for the contract? I'm surprised that I'm not hearing something to the extent of what supply chain technology is utilized now in National Defence, if it's SAS or SAP or whatever technological....</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384506">Can you speak to that, please? Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017217">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384507">Madam Chair, I don't know the name of the particular technology we use. I agree that a review of our supply chain system is well overdue. Leaving it for 20 years is far too long; technology has changed multiple times in that time frame. This is well overdue, and we will need to have an evergreen process to review it going forward.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384508">I'm going to ask Mr. Crosby to give you the details of the contract. If he doesn't have them, we will get them to you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017228">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384509">To answer the question about the system we rely on, it's based on an SAP program. We call our system the “defence resource management information system”. That is going to be modernized, moving towards an S/4HANA solution, which really drives, ultimately, the timelines we were speaking about earlier in response to some of the questions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384510">The review that's going on right now with PricewaterhouseCoopers is really looking at optimizing the transportation system. They've looked at about five million data points to model that and to find a way of optimizing the solutions. That's one part of the solution.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384511"> As the deputy minister has said, there are other elements we've touched on, such as automatic information technology. We're about to sign a significant contract for bringing bar-coding to many of our items on a priority basis. Then, of course, there's the work around our business processes and making sure that our people are well trained and professionalized and that we are providing them with tools to get that work done, with all of this happening in parallel and under the supervision of multiple levels of governance across the department.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017238">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264315" Type="47">Mr. Francesco Sorbara</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384512"> Thank you for that explanation. That was excellent information pertaining to the audit, and some of the material within the audit. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384513">To the Office of the Auditor General and to the Auditor General, it's great to see you again. It's wonderful to be on this committee. I've sat on finance, public accounts, and a few other committees during the last five years for which I have a great deal of respect. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384514">I have a question in terms of this review of the Canadian Armed Forces relative to the armed forces of other G7 nations, because benchmarking is very important for me. Is there any sort of comparison that is done, or that we can look at? It's easy to look at one organization and say how it's doing, but it's great to also extend it out to see how it's doing relative to its peers or other comparables. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="55">(1155)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017249">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384515">I will ask Nick to chime in, in a few minutes, in case he does have some additional information.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384516">Whenever we undertake any audit, we always look to best practices, whether they be across our country or in other places. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384517">I am not exactly sure to what extent that was done when it came to looking at other defence departments across the world, or other companies that manage supply chains, so I will turn to Nick to see if he can provide some additional insight on that. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017258">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="190496" Type="28">Mr. Nicholas Swales</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384518">We did not do any comparative work with other organizations at any level of detail. We were focused on what reasonable expectations were for the Canadian Armed Forces themselves, and the results we got from that. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017264">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384519">We're going to move to our two-and-a-half-minute rounds.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384520">We'll begin with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017270">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384521">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384522">I have many questions. I find our colleagues' questions and the witnesses' comments very good. I heard Ms. Thomas talk about automating and updating systems. I also looked at Ms. Hogan's fairly comprehensive report. However, one thing missing from the report is the source of the issue. What caused all these issues?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384523">The report contains many observations and recommendations. There's even an action plan. There seems to be goodwill on the part of the Department of National Defence. However, I'm trying to understand what led to all these supply issues that have been going on for years.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384524">Ms. Hogan, can you shed some light on this?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384525">I'm trying to understand how the current situation came about, despite the action plans, the recommendations, the analyses, the close monitoring that we're prepared to do and the transparency of the Department of National Defence, which also wants to report to us more often.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017279">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384526">I believe that the department is in a better position to answer this question and to explain the cause.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384527">You must understand that a supply chain is complicated. It's complex. It's even more complex when you include the logistics of delivering materiel across the country on ships, or abroad. We've noticed that the department has an action plan and that it's starting to make progress.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384528">Again, in terms of the cause, I think that the department should answer the question.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017285">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384529">Can the department respond?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384530">Look, it's a bit like a weed. If you just cut the top off and you don't remove the root, then you don't get to the source of the issue and the weed will grow back. I can see that the issue has been going on for years and that there are action plans and goodwill. However, in reality, we're just continuing, and meanwhile...</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384531">This is no small matter, Ms. Hogan. When I looked at the figures, I almost lost it. We're talking about the Canadian Armed Forces, National Defence, people who must respond to disasters. Military units receive spare parts, uniforms and rations late half the time, meaning 50% of the time. High-priority items needed to meet critical operational requirements were delivered late over 60% of the time. That's even more than half the time.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384532">What can you tell us about this?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017297">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384533">I'm going to respond, and then I'm going to turn to my colleagues.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384534">The answer is both complex and simple. It is a massive system. We move 26,000 types of items across 19 missions in 25 countries. There have been boutique solutions for particular problems across the Canadian Armed Forces, but we've never had an end-to-end solution.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384535">Why? Well, we've had manual systems. We've had very early database systems, but they've been individual things. They've become boutique; they have been siloed. As a result, mistakes are made, and items are lost. There have been some attempts to rectify that over the years, but on occasion, the urgent overtakes the fundamental institutional aspects of this department.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384536">We now have an end-to-end joined-up approach with all parts of the department and the Canadian Armed Forces defence team. It has certainly been helped by the Auditor General's observations, which spurred us on to more activity, but we realized this had to be done before the audit.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="00">(1200)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017309">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384537"> Thank you very much, Ms. Thomas. I'm sorry that we don't have time to refer to the other witnesses. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384538">I need to move to Mr. Green, for two and a half minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017312">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384539">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384540">I believe we're synchronizing our timers now.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384541">On March 13, 2020, the chief of the defence staff activated phase three of the pandemic response under Operation Laser, yet this morning, we've heard in testimony that the National Defence folks don't know the extent of the role that National Defence will play in the COVID vaccine distribution. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384542">The Liberals are already suggesting that distribution will happen in Q1 of 2021. What is your timeline to be ready for distribution?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017319">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384543"> I'll ask General Cadieu to jump in. We will be ready when we're asked to be ready. There are multiple kinds of vaccine out there. Whatever the Canadian Armed Forces is asked to do, we will ensure that it's logistically and operationally possible. I don't actually think there is a correlation between this audit and our ability to distribute the vaccine, if I can be completely honest.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017324">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384544">Ms. Thomas, in my opinion, the fact that you have a 50% failure rate on prioritizing materiel, and all of the things that are identified in this audit as being problematic to your ability to distribute basic military things, given the pandemic we're in, have a direct correlation to your readiness.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384545">I'm happy to hear from your colleagues, but it's concerning to me that the Liberal government is committing the military to be part of distribution systems, yet the military doesn't seem to know the role that it's playing. It creates confusion and undercuts the confidence.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017335">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384546">I think the military will know the role its playing when it's asked to play a role. We haven't yet been asked to play a role in vaccine distribution. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384547">It's just like the long-term care facilities. That was a brand new operation for the Canadian Armed Forces. They went in. They did a recce. They trained people, and they executed perfectly. I have absolutely zero doubt that this would be any different.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017337">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384548">Within Q1 of 2021, will your military be prepared to distribute whatever COVID vaccines are made available? </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017340">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384549">As General Cadieu said, it would be a combination of public and private distribution. It will not come into our supply chain. We would be a transport vehicle. We will help organize the logistics of bringing the vaccine into Canada through the lead at the Public Health Agency of Canada, and we would do anything else that is asked of us. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384550">General Cadieu, do you have anything to add?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017345">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384551">Madam Chair, we are currently supporting thousands of Canadian Armed Forces men and women deployed on 20 operations around the globe. We do that very successfully. Any time we can improve our supply chains to better look after our men and women—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017348">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384552">I appreciate your mandate, Mr. Cadieu, but you haven't been asked for help to date on the supply of COVID vaccinations. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017350">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384553">The Public Health Agency is currently leading the COVID-19 vaccine task force and the planning effort behind that. The Canadian Armed Forces are contributing to the logistical planning for that effort. It's a very complex problem. That estimate is ongoing. It will take some additional time before we can determine what the potential role for the Canadian Armed Forces might be.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017360">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384554">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017362">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384555">We will now move to our five-minute round, starting with Mr. Lawrence.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017365">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264438" Type="47">Mr. Philip Lawrence (Northumberland—Peterborough South, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384556">I just want to start off by saying that one of the great honours of being the representative for Northumberland—Peterborough South is that I get to sit, in some cases, shoulder to shoulder—in this case, camera to camera—with some very esteemed individuals. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384557">I'd like to start by thanking all of you for your service. I absolutely believe that we have the best, most well-trained, most well-prepared, hardest working, most dedicated service people in the entire world, here in Canada. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384558">I'd like to move on. I also would like to say—particularly you, Ms. Thomas—your openness, your willingness to share with the committee is greatly appreciated. Knowing that we have such great service people, what roadblocks do you face? What's stopping us from ramping things up and, as has been pointed out by a number of folks, getting from 2028 to 2024? </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384559">Is there financial support to redirect? Are there roadblocks? Is there legislation? If we could get unanimous consent in the House to say, “Hey, let's do what Ms. Thomas says. We need to get this fixed immediately,” what advice would you give to us?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="05">(1205)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017378">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384560">I'm going to ask Troy Crosby to weigh in on this question. At this point, while I want everything done more quickly so that we can provide the Armed Forces with what they need, and so that the department can fulfill its mandate to support the Canadian Armed Forces, what I'm very concerned about is making sure that we do it correctly, which doesn't mean that we should not be looking at ways to ensure that we can maybe advance milestones and do better than the milestones we've laid out. At this point in time, the complexity of the project ahead means that we need to understand it before I commit to anything.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384561">Mr. Crosby, would you like to add anything?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017387">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384562"> I have to completely agree with the deputy. The thing that we most need right now is to focus on a very disciplined execution of the plan that we put in front of ourselves. We're absolutely seized with getting this done. Everyone is focused on supporting the Canadian Armed Forces, particularly when they're in operations but in training as well. We're all completely seized with that objective, and what we need is to be able to deliver methodically over time and build on our successes, test ourselves, check our assumptions and make sure that we're moving forward so that we deliver a long-term workable solution and we can measure our progress along the way. We'll focus on the high priority areas again such as deployed operations, and over time we'll deliver a very fulsome solution. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017400">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264438" Type="47">Mr. Philip Lawrence</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384563">Thank you very much. Once again, I appreciate those answers. I guess the one bit of advice I would share with you is to please feel free to ask for more. We want to make sure that you are taken care of.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384564"> I do have to say that I think my colleague Mr. Green's questions were passionately delivered and certainly coming from the right place in that we want to get Canadians the vaccine. On the same question of what resources we can get you—and I realize that if the plan comes tomorrow, if it comes in 60 days or if it comes in 90 days, the military will be there and be ready—what else could we do? What else could this government do? What else could Parliament do to make sure that you're in the best possible position to help deliver that vaccine?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017414">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384565"> We need to work with the Public Health Agency and our colleagues around town to look at what the delivery mechanisms required for each of the various vaccines will be. That's working with the health experts, it's working with contracting experts in PSPC and it's working with our colleagues in the Canadian Armed Forces to understand the modalities of transportation, storage and distribution and accounting for it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384566"> There's a significant amount of work to be done, which doesn't mean we won't be ready when that vaccine needs to be picked up somewhere, and it doesn't mean necessarily that the Canadian Armed Forces would be picking it up, but maybe we will be. What we have to do is understand what the supplier of the vaccine requires for transportation and distribution, and then we'll be able to work backwards from that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384567">Major-General Cadieu, do you have anything to add?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017429">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384568">As has already been alluded to, the prospect of moving a COVID-19 vaccine across the country is a tremendous undertaking. It will require close collaboration, of course, at the federal level but also with all of our provinces and territories that are going to have to mobilize support. This will be a public and private endeavour. In essence it will be a whole-of-nation support, so we continue to backstop the Public Health Agency as it assesses what's going to be required for the distribution of this vaccine.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017437">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384569">Thank you very much.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384570">I will now move to Mr. Longfield for five minutes. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017440">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269495" Type="40">Mr. Lloyd Longfield (Guelph, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384571">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384572"> Thank you to all of the witnesses. It's always great to see Ms. Hogan. It's the third time this week. What are you doing tomorrow?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384573">As Mr. Lawrence said, at these committees we have the opportunity to talk to phenomenal people with great expertise, so we really appreciate this.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384574">In my previous lives, I managed warehouses for hydraulic equipment distribution across Canada starting in Winnipeg, and then I had a warehouse in Mississauga. Eventually I took on a managing director role down in Welland, Ontario. We converted to SAP. That was an interesting memory for me, because SAP does have logistical software that's very powerful, but it needs to be fed properly.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384575">My question is more along the lines of the inventory management theory that might be employed. We sent our staff down to Texas A&amp;M, the army/navy university in Texas, where they learned ABC management. The top 80% of your volume comes from 20% of your line items, and you manage your stock out quantities accordingly. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384576">One piece that always entered in was that, at some point, you have to invest in your inventory. You have to move things from your balance sheet, from your cash into stock. Over the years, when going to zero quantity on hand, quite often there's a culture of, “We don't have the money so we'll wait until we're out of stock before we reorder.” </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384577">Is this any part of the audit in terms of the culture of having enough resource to order the stock that you need to have, rather than letting it get to zero, and the inventory management systems?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384578">There are maybe several layers to that question. First of all, in terms of our audit, I see in sections 3.11 and 3.12, it's talking about systems in general, but did we look at the underlying systems that we employ that we then feed software?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384579">Ms. Hogan.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="10">(1210)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017467">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="262933" Type="28">Ms. Karen Hogan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384580"> It's my understanding that we did not look at all the underlying systems. We did look at the supply chain from the time a request is entered until its delivery point.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384581"> Over the years, through the public accounts audit, we do look at the challenges that the department has had in properly tracking the quantities and values of inventory, which is part of what you're talking about. Then it feeds into the supply chain and the logistics of moving things through the supply chain.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017474">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269495" Type="40">Mr. Lloyd Longfield</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384582">Right. Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384583">My assumptions may not apply here, Ms. Thomas, but in terms of operations, you have procurement, warehousing and operations going on. Is there a resource component that needs to be addressed in terms of restocking the armed forces?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017484">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384584"> I would be incorrect if I said that there was not a resource implication, because that will happen at the local level. Somebody will make a local decision to let something go to zero. That doesn't mean that it was an incorrect decision, and I'm certainly not casting aspersions on those decisions, but if we have a national view, we have a better chance of managing and ensuring that there are no zero stock situations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384585">I'll ask Troy to jump in, as he manages the national inventory.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017494">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384586">There are two opportunities here. One, to build on the answer that was just provided there, is that in certain cases there are deliberate choices made to leave stock levels at zero because the materiel can be acquired fairly rapidly at a local level and it's not worth storing. In other cases, there may be material that has shelf life, and we make decisions about just how much to stock so that we don't have materiel expiring.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384587">The other element that I just thought I'd build on from the question is something that we haven't spoken about yet, and that is ensuring that below the bar codes the materiel identification information for every one of those half-billion items is correct. Without that, we won't know whether or not things are about to expire or whether or not they have a shelf life. That materiel information layer is yet another major part of our action plan to move forward and improve the system.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017502">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269495" Type="40">Mr. Lloyd Longfield</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384588">In terms of the distribution system review, is the authority to be able to make purchasing decisions, based on the requirements that are sent into the system, an issue?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017504">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384589">The positioning is part of our action plan, of knowing where we're storing our equipment and whether we have it in the right numbers and the right places. I think the Auditor General's report has highlighted the importance of that, of making sure that we're resilient and responsive in our supply. That's a business choice that will have to be made and then will factor into the overall choices on the way forward.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017512">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384590">Thank you very much. We now need to move on to our third round of questioning, which is back to a six-minute round.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384591">We will be starting with Mr. Bezan.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017514">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384592">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384593">Briefly, I want to go back again to the distribution of COVID vaccines, as we've already heard about in testimony. I suspect that maybe Ms. Thomas or Major-General Cadieu would be able to confirm this or give this some context.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384594">I suspect that one of the major roles that the Canadian Armed Forces is going to play in this is distribution to rural and remote communities where commercial options are not viable. If that is the case, do we have the ability to handle the vaccine, especially the Pfizer product at -75° C, and to actually put that onto Hercs or Globemaster planes and into our trucks to get it distributed across the country, especially to first nations and rural and remote communities?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="15">(1215)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017527">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384595">It is anticipated that the armed forces could well—and it has not been decided yet, but could well—be used for remote and rural communities. Certainly, transporting into the Arctic, for example, is something that the armed forces is very acquainted with doing and expert at. Do we have the capacity right now? No. Can we procure it? Yes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384596">There's a lot of work that needs to be done on the idea of moving a vaccine that requires that kind of temperature management, from the idea of it to the execution of it, including testing of airplanes—all that safety aspect of this. What we are doing is working through all of the options. There will be no stone left unturned, no aspect of this that the planners do not look at with the Public Health Agency.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384597">Whether it is an armed forces transportation method or just an armed forces contribution to the planning, it will be very thorough, and we will ensure that rural and remote communities have the same access to the vaccine as the more populous areas of Canada.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384598">General Cadieu.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017539">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384599"> Throughout the duration of the Canadian Armed Forces and Department of National Defence contributions to the COVID-19 response, we have maintained the forces' posture. We are prepared to respond to Canadians in their time of need across the country, including northern and remote communities. That has not changed, and it will not change, as we continue to go through this crisis together as a nation.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384600">The Public Health Agency continues to lead the estimate of what will be required to support the vaccine rollout logistically. We're looking forward to the out-takes of that work that we're backstopping, as well, to better understand the different roles that public and private partners may play in the distribution of that vaccine.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017546">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384601">I have full confidence that the Canadian Armed Forces can get into those remote communities.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384602">The bottleneck in all of this is going to be the equipment, and having to keep these vaccines at set temperatures. I'm glad to hear, Ms. Thomas, that you're looking at procurement possibilities, and getting those in place as quickly as possible.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384603">I want to switch back to the AG report. We talk about how the supply has impacted some operations. Ms. Thomas has said that it didn't impact our forward deployed troops in international operations. Is it then disproportionately impacting training exercises, or is this lack of supply just impacting the day-to-day operation of our bases?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017552">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384604">General Cadieu can speak to that, having run operations domestically and overseas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384605">We prioritize overseas operations where troops are deployed. When there are supply chain problems, they tend to affect domestic operations more with warehousing capabilities in bases and wings, as opposed to a ship not being able to go to sea, because we didn't get something to it. If widget x was required in 10 days, and it arrived in 15 days, it doesn't mean an operation, an exercise, a deployment, or the operation of that base was affected.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017559">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="267592" Type="2">Mr. James Bezan</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384606">Have we had any exercises actually cancelled because of lack of supplies?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017560">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384607">I'll ask General Cadieu. Not that I am aware of, but that doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017563">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384608">Our deputy minister summarized it perfectly in terms of support to Canadian Armed Forces operations. We always privilege getting the materiel to the men and women who are deployed abroad in support of Canadians. We do that by ensuring we have robust operational stocks. If we require priority movement requests, we privilege them for deployed operations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384609">To answer your specific question, we need to move materiel to our training exercises as well, because that is where we train troops to deploy into the crucible of operations. Generally speaking, we have tremendous success doing that. We do not cancel exercises because of a lack of materiel. That has never been my experience. What we might have to do, from time to time, is find the innovative solutions to continue on with our mission. Frankly, part of our training is to be resilient and deploy operations.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="20">(1220)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017569">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384610">I will now move to Mr. Fergus, for six minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017571">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264313" Type="47">Mr. Greg Fergus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384611">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384612">I want to start by thanking not only the Auditor General, but also the deputy minister and all members of the Canadian Forces.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384613">As the member of Parliament for Hull—Aylmer and a resident of the Outaouais, I want to take a moment to thank the Canadian Forces for their exceptional work in my region during the 2017 and 2019 floods.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384614">Your presence reassured many people here. You answered the call immediately to help your fellow Canadians. I'm very grateful for this.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384615">My colleague Mr. Sorbara asked the Auditor General how Canada's system compared to the systems in other countries. She responded that she hadn't done a comparative study on the materiel provided to military bases in other G7 countries.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384616">Ms. Thomas, I want to ask you the following question. Canada is allied with other countries. Our military members participate in missions as part of these alliances around the world. Do you want to emulate any countries when it comes to supplying materiel to military bases? Do you have a model in mind that you want to emulate? </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017597">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384617"> It's a very good question. I'm going to ask Troy Crosby to speak to it, as he works on NATO working groups that look at supply chains and materiel management. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384618">I would note that we are a unique country. We are a small armed forces, a small population and a vast geographic area to supply. NATO countries are often difficult to compare ourselves to just because of our geographic expanse. We have a unique challenge in Canada. It's not insurmountable. We're working hard to make sure that we do this better, but it is a difficult comparison for Canada just because of our geography. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384619">I'm going to ask Troy to jump in. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017601">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384620">It's in an interesting area inasmuch as we take part in a number of international supply chain fora with our allies on an ongoing basis, whether it's the Five Eyes partners, the U.S., the U.K., Australia or New Zealand, for example. As well, we also are very well connected with industry partners, with industry working groups and with industry conferences where best practices are explored. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384621">Being a military, not all of the commercial practices clearly apply in our circumstances, but we do share lessons and some of the initiatives that are under way. As the deputy minister mentioned, even just this week I was speaking with my counterpart, the national armaments director from the United States, and supply chain resilience and supply chain issues were on the agenda. This is an ongoing conversation. We're always all working together to do the best we can, and we're maintaining our interoperability at the same time. It's an area that we're bringing into our solution and determining the best way forward. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="25">(1225)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017615">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264313" Type="47">Mr. Greg Fergus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384622">Thank you for your response.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384623">Mr. Crosby, you just compared Canada to the United States or its NATO partners. Do you want to share any specific aspects with this committee?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384624">As parliamentarians, we can make recommendations to help you, as you did in my region during the floods. I forgot to mention your more recent assistance in CHSLDs during the pandemic. Your work in Quebec has been outstanding. Once again, thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384625">Do you want to suggest any specific processes so that we can advance your interests with the government?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017623">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384626"> The lessons we've taken away from these conversations with our allies are that, given the unique aspects of the military supply system, there aren't any particularly specific targets that are achievable in the sense that, where industry holds itself to a very high standard of responsiveness from a supply chain perspective, in our case a lot of the success goes to our resilience and our ability to be resourceful under challenging and unpredictable circumstances. It's that resourcefulness and the thinking around continuous improvement, lessons learned, always reflecting after operations on what was achieved, how we could have done better and sharing those lessons among our allies that is most important to us.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384627">At the same time, you're seeing that some of the investments that have been approved are the outcomes of some of these conversations on how best to move forward. For example, over $200 million was approved for the automatic information technology project in the summer of 2019. That sort of work and the definition work in exactly what we'll request in the request for proposal, taking into account security considerations, all come from those conversations as well. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017630">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384628">Thank you very much.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384629">We will now move to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017632">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384630">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384631">Ms. Thomas, I want to thank you for providing some clarifications in your response to a question that I asked you earlier. I know that the system is complex. You said that there are over 20,000 types of goods. Changing a military supply chain is much more complex than you might think.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384632">I want to verify something. While preparing for this meeting, I came across a March 4, 2019, article by journalist Lee Berthiaume in <I>La Presse</I>. The article states that the Department of National Defence saved $700 million as a result of efficiencies. I want to congratulate you. This is a good thing. However, the department spent $2.3 billion less as a result of delays in the warship projects and the fact that some items cost less than expected. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384633">Another aspect interested or intrigued me. I'm still looking for the source of National Defence's supply chain issue. The article states that “defence officials have previously blamed a shortage of procurement experts for some project delays and cost overruns.”</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384634">Can you comment on this, Ms. Thomas?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017650">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384635">I believe you're referring to vote 5 spending on capital projects. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384636">On individual projects we did save approximately $700 million that year, but we did not roll out the spending quite to the extent we intended to. I think it's important to note that the spending is not lost to the department. It is in our capital envelope and it will be spent. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384637">We are proceeding with “Strong, Secure, Engaged” projects, as had been laid out in our investment plan.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384638">Early on, as we launched “Strong, Secure, Engaged” and the range of capital investment required, we did have a shortage of procurement experts in ADM materiel. Troy and his predecessor, Pat Finn, have worked very hard at increasing the number of procurement professionals in both the Department of National Defence and in Public Services and Procurement Canada, so we're feeling much more comfortable with the level of employees and the competency and range of experience of our employees as we continue to proceed down the path of “Strong, Secure, Engaged”. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="30">(1230)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017656">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384639">Thank you, Ms. Thomas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384640">Can you shed some light on the reason for the shortage of procurement experts?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017660">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384641"> Many had been laid off when we went through a period of cuts, so the numbers reduced. A lot of expertise retired, so that train the trainers approach to developing people was lost. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384642">We ramped up very quickly a huge range of projects, and we had entry-level employees. We didn't have more mid- and senior-level employees to manage some of the large projects, but we are in a far better situation now. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384643">We have a very robust development program for our procurement experts, led by Troy's team, and we work very closely with PSPC to ensure that there is a cross-pollination of expertise between the two departments. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017672">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384644">Thank you, Ms. Thomas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384645">The same article states that this “shortage was created by successive cuts to the department” by various governments, both Liberal and Conservative, in the 1990s.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384646">I'll go back to my question about the source of the issue. Do you really believe that a shortage of procurement experts is causing project delays and cost overruns, as stated in the Auditor General's report, or is the issue simply the result of budget cuts by various governments?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017677">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384647"> The decisions were all made within the department, making reductions in response to direction, so there were choices that were made within the Department of National Defence.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017680">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384648">Ms. Thomas, I'm trying to find the source of the issue. A shortage of procurement experts is causing problems, and action plans must be developed. The Department of National Defence is receiving receive rations and goods late.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384649">Did the hiring of additional experts or budget cuts cause all the issues that we're looking at today?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017690">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384650">Some of those reductions were on the major project side of things in the capital envelope that Troy manages. As for some of the shortages in people, yes, more people would make a difference in some cases, but this is a systemic problem, the supply chain problem, within the Department of National Defence. There's no one year where you can say it all changed because we reduced the number of people. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384651">Supply chain management has modernized, and we haven't invested in it. We are doing that now to ensure we have a system that can be updated and kept evergreen going forward. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017695">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384652">Thank you, Ms. Thomas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384653">Do we agree that, if there are fewer experts and operational resources to address the procurement issues raised today, there will be fewer results?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017698">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384654">In terms of specific resources, I'll ask Troy to respond as to whether he believes he needs more people to manage this. When he does require more people, he comes to me through our formal budgeting process within the department, and more people are always needed.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384655">Troy, is there anything specific you would like to add?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017701">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384656">We've actually grown since “Strong, Secure, Engaged” was published. We've had an increase in the number of public servants involved in our capital acquisition program, which includes the purchase of spare parts that are delivered into the system to support our equipment, as we put it into service.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017704">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384657">I will now move to Mr. Green, for six minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017707">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384658">You've heard me today passionately referring to COVID distribution. There may be some differences of opinion regarding whether it's germane to this report or not. I still strongly believe it is. I'll spend my time referencing specifically the issues brought up by the Auditor General's report with the frame and the understanding that I firmly believe it has a direct correlation to the military preparedness, and ability for COVID vaccination distribution.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384659">In section 3.27, the Auditor General found that 50% of all materiel requested during the period covered by the audit was received after the required date of delivery. Among the late deliveries, 50% were at least 15 days late, and 25% were at least 40 days late. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384660">In section 3.28, among the high-priority requests, it found that 60% arrived after the required delivery date. Of these, 50% were at least six days late, and 25% were at least 20 days late. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384661">What is the Department of National Defence's service standard for deliveries?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="35">(1235)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017725">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384662">Our service standard for deliveries depends on both the priority assigned to the object, and the delivery methodology, whether we're doing it ourselves or contracting that delivery.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384663">I'll ask Troy and General Cadieu to both respond, because this is a very joint process between the department and the Canadian Armed Forces.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017729">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384664">In certain cases, where we can foresee, or need to position ourselves to react quickly, we actually put together packages of spare parts that are pre-positioned in order to allow us to respond quickly on need. Beyond that, as the deputy minister had mentioned, the requirement is on a case-by-case basis in most cases, where requesters specify when they need the equipment in order to support their ongoing activities. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017738">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384665">What are the reasons, then, for missing them so badly? Do the service standards need to be reconsidered?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017740">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="260377" Type="28">Mr. Troy Crosby</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384666"> In certain cases, per the response to the Auditor General's report, where we need to introduce additional discipline into the establishment of those high-priority requests to ensure they are in fact reflective of an urgent need and that we're not diverting resources where they could be best served somewhere else, that's part of our response. That's part of what we'll be doing in the near term: ensuring that clarity exists.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017745">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384667">There's an old saying that an army marches on its stomach. According to the AG report, given the need to be well provisioned with food and with materiel and other supplies, I'm not sure that we're able to march very far, very fast.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384668"> I think about the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry housed at the John Weir Foote Armoury in my riding of Hamilton Centre. We want to make sure that these men and women who are stationed there get the supplies and the equipment they need.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384669">Section 3.47 says that for “129 high-priority materiel requests”, National Defence was asked “to provide the supply forms that were completed” and other documents, “such as emails and work orders”. The auditors found that “on the basis of the information [they] received, including explanations and supporting documentation, National Defence could not justify the high-priority status of 65% of the requests that were reviewed”.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384670"> Do you think high-priority requests are being made for things that may not be considered high priority so that they arrive only 20 days late, say, instead of 40 days late? Because this sounds like a way for our Canadian Forces members to try to find a workaround to this supply management system that doesn't work.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017761">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384671"> I'll refer to General Cadieu, but that is entirely possible, and that is why we are looking at the service standards and reviewing the documentation, the requirement and the justification for high-priority items.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384672"> If we divert attention from things that are truly high priority to those that are not, we take away resources from where they're most needed, so that entire governance and oversight has to be reviewed as a part of this audit and a part of our action plan for the audit.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017772">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384673">That answer actually suffices quite well, Ms. Thomas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384674">In the event that the Liberals or the Conservatives try to privatize delivery services, including the COVID vaccination, is it still fair to say that it would be cheaper for the Department of National Defence to be delivering its own materiel rather than using commercial services?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017773">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384675">General Cadieu is responsible for transportation, so I'll ask him to respond.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017774">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384676">We move materiel based on the operational necessity, so there will be times—if, for example, we need to get equipment parts, food or additional resources to deployed troops—where we might have to rely on commercial means if that's going to be quicker than what we refer to as the “national freight run” or the green trucks to move our equipment.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384677"> We assess the criticality of the operational requirement and the imperative to get it into the hands of the men and women who are serving on behalf of the nation as we make these determinations.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="40">(1240)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017781">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264483" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384678">How are you able to budget for the cost overruns for the use of commercial delivery services and what pool of money do you have to pull from to cover your delivery overrun costs?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017784">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="254406" Type="28">MGen T. J. Cadieu</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384679">Madam Chair, in all of the operations we conduct, we plan in great detail, including for the financial resources that are required and including for the use of commercial transport if and when we need to use it to push materiel out to our deployed troops.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017790">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384680">Thank you very much, General Cadieu.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384681"> Members, that takes us to the end of our third round.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384682">Before we move into the next portion of our meeting, I do have a question that was prepared by the analyst from the Library of Parliament regarding recommendation 3.57.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384683">That recommendation states:</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384684">
                <Quote>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">National Defence should communicate the costs of all available transportation methods and provide clear guidance on how to select the mode of transportation to ensure that decisions are founded on a full understanding of costs.</QuotePara>
                </Quote>
              </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384685"> What progress has been made with respect to defining the problem and determining the best methodology to query the existing data? I'll pose that to Ms. Thomas.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017815">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="235688" Type="28">Ms. Jody Thomas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384686">This is part of the holistic review that is being done of the entire process to look at our end-to-end delivery. We need to be completely transparent on costs. We need to make cost-effective decisions. We need to be able to manage the inventory and the movement of goods around the country in a way that is cost-effective, and we will be publishing results of studies as they become available.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017824">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384687"> Thank you very much for that answer.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384688">Because we are so close to 12:45, and that's the time that we designated for committee business, I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. It's been a tremendous time here with you, hearing the very good questions of our members and the answers that we've received.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384689">I will thank you and let you know that you are free to leave this meeting at this time. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384690">We will then go into committee business.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384691">Seeing that the witnesses have all left, we have two orders of business in front of us for the next 15 minutes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384692">The first is the budgets, and I believe they were all circulated to you. I think what we will do, if the committee members agree, is to just go through each one asking for whether or not it is the will of the committee to adopt the budgets as presented. We then have a service contract that the clerk has sent to all members.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384693">Are there any questions before we begin?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384694">Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017872">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269495" Type="40">Mr. Lloyd Longfield</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384695">I just wanted to say thank you to the clerk. The estimates are a lot lower than they normally come in at when you don't have travel. I wonder whether we're able to approve them in one shot rather than do each one individually.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017874">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384696">Absolutely, we could take care of this in one motion if it is unanimous to just adopt the budgets as presented.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017880">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269495" Type="40">Mr. Lloyd Longfield</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384697">In that case, I would so move that we adopt all the budgets.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="12" Mn="45">(1245)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017882">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384698">Are there any questions around that?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384699">Go ahead, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017885">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384700">Thank you, Madam Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384701">I'll ask a simple question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384702">I've noticed that several of our colleagues are participating in this meeting virtually. Project budget requests always include an “other expenses” category for working meals. We could save money if we were to bring our own meals. I understand that this money might not be spent. That said, even if the money is included in the budget, it constitutes allocated amounts that we could save. Since the start of this parliamentary session, most of my colleagues have been attending meetings virtually. Meals can be prepared. However, if people aren't here to eat them, money will be wasted.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017888">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384703">Madame Clerk, would you like to speak to that issue? I know that there is a process for determining what is needed to be ordered.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017890">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264114" Type="27">The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Angela Crandall)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384704">Certainly, thank you, Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384705">I've included meals in the budget, one for each meeting that we normally would have on the study. We don't necessarily spend that money or have to spend it. If we don't, it goes directly back into the budget for committees. It's a question of being able to order meals if members indicate that they're going to be present. Even if we had half the members here, it probably wouldn't cost the full amount, but it's a question of having the money available so we don't have to go back and ask for more in a budget. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384706">It's the same with the headsets. The number may be a little bit higher than what we may actually spend. We may not have the actual number of headsets for witnesses, but it's a question of being prepared so that we don't have to come back to you and say we need a budget for $75 to pay for something.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384707">As I said, the money goes back into the general committee budget, the directorate, if it's not spent. That's usually fairly quickly after the end of a study.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017896">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384708">Does that answer your question, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017900">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269496" Type="40">Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384709">Yes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384710">Thank you, Madam Chair and Madam Clerk.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017901">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384711">All in favour of adopting the budgets as presented?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384712"> (Motion agreed to)</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384713">
                <B>The Chair:</B> The next item on our agenda is the calendar.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384714">After the last meeting and pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee, the clerk, analysts and myself had a discussion and I would like to propose the following changes to the calendar. I do believe that it was circulated to you ahead of time. I hope you have had the opportunity to look at it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384715">The first change would be that the committee invite the appropriate witnesses to appear on Thursday, December 3, in relation to “Report 3—Taxation of E-Commerce” of the 2019 spring reports of the Auditor General of Canada. That directly relates to a motion that was adopted at the last meeting.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384716">Number two is that the committee study any available draft reports on Tuesday, December 8.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384717">Is it the will of the committee to adopt the amended calendar as presented?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384718">
                <B>Some hon. members:</B> Agreed.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384719">
                <B>The Chair:</B> Seeing that everyone has agreed to that, we will adopt this calendar.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384720"> I believe that takes care of our business for this period during our meeting.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384721">I would remind you that our next meeting will be on Tuesday, November 24, with Mr. Longfield chairing it. I think you're in for a treat with Mr. Longfield chairing.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017928">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264316" Type="47">Ms. Jean Yip</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384722">Madam Chair, I just have one question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384723">Is there any update on the training that was scheduled? </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017931">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384724">Yes, that is on the calendar, I believe. It is scheduled for Thursday, the 26th. I believe it was scheduled on that day, so that didn't change from the original calendar.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017933">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264316" Type="47">Ms. Jean Yip</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384725">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11017936">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269494" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6384726">You're welcome.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384727">If there are no other questions, I will adjourn the meeting.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6384728">Thank you so much.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
        </SubjectOfBusinessContent>
      </SubjectOfBusiness>
    </OrderOfBusiness>
  </HansardBody>
</Hansard>