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    <DocumentName>EVIDENCE</DocumentName>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebate">Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Number">NUMBER 020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Session">2nd SESSION</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Parliament">43rd PARLIAMENT</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Date">Wednesday, March 10, 2021</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="DateOtherLang">Le mercredi 10 mars 2021</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Institution">Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Country">CANADA</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="RecordingNote">[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="HeaderTitle">EVIDENCE</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="HeaderDate">March 10, 2021</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDocumentCategory">Committee</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitle">NUMBER 020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleEn">NUMBER 020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleFr">NUMÉRO 020</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaNumberNumber">20</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumDay">10</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumMonth">03</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumYear">2021</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaCreationTime">2021/03/10 17:00:00</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaInstitution">House Of Commons</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateFr">Comité permanent des opérations gouvernementales et des prévisions budgétaires</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateEn">Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Acronyme">OGGO</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerTitle">Chair</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerName">Mr. Robert Kitchen</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="SessionNumber">2</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="ParliamentNumber">43</ExtractedItem>
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  <HansardBody>
    <OrderOfBusiness>
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      <SubjectOfBusiness>
        <SubjectOfBusinessContent>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="00">(1700)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176635">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC))</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567727"> I call this meeting to order. I welcome you to the 20th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567728">This committee is meeting today from 4:58 p.m., eastern standard time. We're to hear from the <Affiliation DbId="253368" Type="23">President of the Treasury Board</Affiliation> and officials on the supplementary estimates 2020-21.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567729">Unfortunately, as we just heard, the minister is unable to attend for reasons that are beyond his control. We will proceed along those lines. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567730">I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted. To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567731"> Interpretation in this video conference will work very much like a regular committee meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen to use the floor, English or French audio. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567732">When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute. To raise a point of order during the meeting, committee members should ensure their microphone is unmuted and say “point of order” to clearly get the chair's attention. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567733">In order to ensure social distancing in the committee room, if you need to speak privately with the clerk or analysts during the meeting, please email them through the committee email address. For those people who are participating in the committee room, please note that masks are required unless seated and when physical distancing is possible. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567734">With the little bit of a change that we've had, we have all received the speaking notes in advance, so I would like to put forward a motion to accept those speaking notes, and then we would transition to discussions with the other witnesses. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567735">The motion I'm proposing is that the speaking notes presented by the President of the Treasury Board be taken as read and appended to the evidence of today's meeting. Do I have consent to do that?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567736">
                <B>Some hon. members:</B> Agreed.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567737">[<I>See appendix</I>—Remarks by the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos]</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567738">
                <B>The Chair:</B> Thank you. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567739">With that done, we will proceed. We have with us a number of analysts today. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567740">I think we have all five at this point, do we not, Mr. Clerk?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176671">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264098" Type="27">The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Paul Cardegna)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567741">Yes, we do, Mr. Chair. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176673">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567742">We have Mr. Ermuth, Ms. Cahill, Mr. Purves, Ms. Yalkin and Mr. Greenough. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567743">I'm assuming you weren't expecting to have to do a presentation, so I think we'll go straight into questioning, if that's okay.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567744">Do I see a hand up that you'd like to make an opening announcement?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567745">Mr. Purves, I see your hand up. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176678">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves (Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567746"> Mr. Chair, that's perfectly fine. We can go right into questioning. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567747">Just to give everyone a sense of who we all are, we cover many different parts of Treasury Board Secretariat. I cover expenditure management. Ms. Cahill is the CFO. Roger Ermuth covers the comptroller general's office. Mr. Yalkin is from the office of the chief human resources officer, and Ms. Read is from the chief information officer's branch. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567748">With that, we're ready to go.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176691">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567749">Thank you. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567750">With that, we will go to the first round of questions from Mr. Paul-Hus. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176696">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264432" Type="47">Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567751">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567752">Good afternoon, Minister Duclos.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567753">I hope that your health is better. I'm glad to have you with us.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567754">First, I want to go back to the questions that we asked you on November 20. We wanted to know whether an impact analysis on official languages had been conducted for the WE Charity. At the time, your answer was rather evasive. I don't think that you knew much about the matter.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567755">By now, we should be able to know whether the analysis was done.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176715">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth (Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567756"> In terms of the question regarding WE Charity, there was no French annex that would normally be done for that program. The reason was that it did not come through as a full-blown Treasury Board submission. The initial program that would have come through would have had an official languages assessment. What actually came through and what was decided was that the minister had the authority to make the changes to the program that allowed for the contribution agreement that was eventually signed with WE Charity. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176733">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264432" Type="47">Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567757">Okay.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567758">I just realized that the minister isn't here. Thank you, Mr. Ermuth, for answering for him.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567759">Normally, Public Services and Procurement Canada must obtain the Treasury Board's assessment for all defence procurement, when the value exceeds the minister's approval authority.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567760">Has this assessment been conducted for combat ships?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176744">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567761">Did they seek the appropriate authorization? To my knowledge, and this is where I think the department of public services—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176746">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264432" Type="47">Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567762">I'll ask my question more clearly.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567763">Normally, defence procurement that exceeds the minister's limits must go through the Treasury Board.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567764">Have you assessed the ship contract?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176750">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567765">Anything that would have gone beyond the minister's authority would have come in through Treasury Board. In terms of the combat ships, there have been multiple times where those have come through, and in terms of the office of the comptroller general, we would have looked at them to ensure there was policy compliance with the responsible policies.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="05">(1705)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176757">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264432" Type="47">Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567766">Thank you, Mr. Ermuth.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567767">Mr. Chair, I would ask that the Treasury Board's assessment report on the combat ship contract be submitted.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567768">In the votes that we're being asked to approve, we learned that the Public Health Agency is requesting $2.5 billion for the purchase of vaccines, including advance purchase agreements.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567769">Is this amount entirely devoted to the purchase of the required vaccines or is it devoted to all the agreements negotiated for the hundreds of millions of vaccines? </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567770">Can any of you give me the details of that amount?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176768">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567771">Thank you for the question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567772">To be clear, that $2.5 billion, which was originally in our statutory forecast, has migrated over to be on a voted basis, and the total amount that we're looking at is about $9.2 billion.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567773">Of that $9.2 billion, about $8 billion is for bilateral purchase agreements pertaining to the vaccines for COVID-19, $1 billion is for strategic international partnerships, and then about $200 million is for treatments and therapeutics, such as the drug remdesivir and so forth.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567774">That $2.5 billion effectively completes the $9.2 billion envelope that exists in the system. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176786">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264432" Type="47">Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567775">The amount adds up. So the $8 billion for bilateral agreements goes to the seven companies that entered into agreements. One thing isn't clear. Are we paying for the vaccines that were licensed and distributed, or are we paying for the vaccines that were reserved?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176795">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567776">It's advance purchase agreements. As the vaccines come in and the payments go out, it's to ensure that the payments are fulfilled.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567777">In terms of details about specifically the seven you're talking about and the breakdown of that $8 billion, that's a question that the Public Health Agency of Canada would be better placed to answer.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176808">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264432" Type="47">Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567778">Can you tell me whether the $8 billion approved by the Treasury Board includes what was reserved or what we'll receive, regardless of whether it's a Pfizer, Moderna or other vaccine?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567779">Does this amount cover what we need to vaccinate Canadians, or will an additional batch be distributed abroad afterwards?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176819">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567780">My understanding is that funds to deal with supplementary vaccinations have been transferred to Global Affairs Canada for their programming. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567781">I believe that the $8 billion is to cover all of the vaccines. Having said that, I think the Public Health Agency of Canada would be able to provide a better line of sight on that answer, and we'd be very pleased to get back to the committee with a precise response to Mr. Paul-Hus's question.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176835">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567782"> Thank you, Mr. Purves. If you would do that for us, we would appreciate it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567783">Mr. Paul-Hus, thank you for your questions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567784">We will now go to Mr. Kusmierczyk for six minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176843">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk (Windsor—Tecumseh, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567785">Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much for filling in.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567786">In the 2019-20 departmental results for TBS, it is outlined, “By the end of 2019–20, the government’s overall reduction in greenhouse gas emissions was 34.6% below 2005 levels”.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567787">Can you give us examples of how the government is reducing greenhouse gas emissions in its operations?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176851">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567788">Ms. Cahill will be pleased to answer that question.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176856">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="244021" Type="28">Ms. Karen Cahill (Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567789"> Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567790">The government is doing many projects with a number of government departments to reduce its GHG emissions. Two good examples in these estimates are projects that we're doing with Health Canada and Fisheries and Oceans. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567791">First of all, with Health Canada, the project is to have a site for virtual inspections that will replace the in-person inspections. If this is successful, this project amongst others will help us reduce our GHGs.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567792">There are a number of different projects happening, and the funding from the central fund for greening government serves to that effect.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="10">(1710)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176876">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567793">Thank you for that response.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567794">Is the Department of Fisheries project similar to the Department of Health project? Is it about introducing more virtual opportunities?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176878">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="244021" Type="28">Ms. Karen Cahill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567795">No, this one is more of an infrastructure project. It is to make changes to the Bedford Institute of Oceanography sea-water heating. What they are doing is installing a sea-water-source geothermal heat pump system at the Bedford Institute. This will reduce natural gas use and GHG emissions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567796">This is the majority of the funding in these estimates.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176902">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567797">That's terrific.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567798">The target is, I believe, 40% below 2005 emissions for 2030. Is there a sense that we are on target to meet our 2030 commitments at the current pace and in the current program?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176911">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="244021" Type="28">Ms. Karen Cahill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567799">I can't tell you for sure that there is a sense, but definitely we can come back to you with a firmer answer. Through the projects we're doing, however, we're on a good path to reduce our GHG emissions by a large number of kilotons.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176922">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567800">That's terrific.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567801">I'm going to switch gears a little bit.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567802">The PBO noted in his report on the supplementary estimates that notable improvements have been made to address issues that this committee mentioned in past meetings concerning financial transparency and openness.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567803">What measures have been introduced to increase financial transparency in the estimates process?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176937">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567804"> It's a great question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567805">One measure that was taken in light of the budget estimates alignment initiative, which was taken before, was very much about aligning what's in the estimates with what was announced in the fall economic statement. In part I, we include a table that breaks that down, because there are some elements we don't include in main estimates, such as tax expenditures and the EI account, that you need to build back in, and given the fact that the Department of Finance reports on an accrual basis as opposed to our working on a cash basis.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567806">With respect to COVID in particular, we have been busy trying to improve the transparency for parliamentarians and Canadians as it pertains to the planned spending. Specifically, we've been looking at effectively tagging COVID measures that are included in the supplementary estimates. We provided a description of all the COVID-19 legislation. When you go to GC InfoBase you can see all the measures lined up against the same measures in the fall economic statement and see which supplementary estimates were approved for the authorities by voted in and statutory.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567807">Finally, we do an alignment between chapters 1 and 2 in the fall economic statement with the spending authorities that have been identified to date specifically for COVID in the estimates, which amount to about $160 billion.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567808">Dealing with a pandemic is new for us. We want to try to advance on the transparency side, and we're always open to comments and suggestions from Parliament as to how we can improve on that.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="15">(1715)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176972">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567809">Thumbs-up on the GC InfoBase by the way. It's great work. It's helping us visualize a large amount of data.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567810">Thank you, Chair.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176975">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567811">Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567812">We'll go to Ms. Vignola for six minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176977">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola (Beauport—Limoilou, BQ)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567813">Thank you, everyone, for being here today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567814">I have a few questions for you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567815">The supplementary estimates seek approval for $13.4 billion in spending, in particular for emergency responses to the pandemic, including medical research and vaccine development.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567816">How do you explain the fact that supplementary estimates (A) and (B), or even the main estimates, didn't include enough money for vaccine research and development?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567817">It isn't surprising that we need to invest in this area. We've seen other countries, especially Great Britain and the United States, invest heavily.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567818">Why haven't we planned for this? Why do we need the supplementary estimates (C) to plan for this?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11176990">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567819"> Certainly, when you step back and think about the payment authorities that we're seeking from Parliament to address the vaccines—and in the response to Mr. Paul-Hus and his question—it adds up to about $9.2 billion. I gave a breakdown of what that is.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567820">The payment authorities have come in different forms. Because the crisis started in March and supplementary estimates (A) weren't until June, Parliament approved Bill <Document DbId="10710867" Type="3">C-13</Document>, which included the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567821">Many of the supports that we're looking at are partially supported through what we call the “statutory” forecast side of the main and supplementary estimates, but then there's the voted component. What happened was that, at the end of December, the statutory authority under the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act expired, so many of the initiatives that were being supported under the payment authority have migrated over to the voted side. That's why you are seeing it effectively listed on the voted.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567822">If you look on the statutory forecast side, you're often seeing an offsetting of reduction amount. On a voted basis, it seems like a very large amount that's coming late, but on a net basis, there are only a couple of measures that are really new. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567823">There's the $485 million for the procurement of test supplies and testing production, which is going to the provinces and territories through the provision of test kits and supplies to supplement the existing testing capacity that they have. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567824">There's $50 million effectively to support the surge in demand for distress centres during and following the COVID-19 pandemic, and $208 million, which is being used to stabilize key resources and operations in the agency.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567825">It can be a challenge to see through that, but that's why, in a way, we put this on the InfoBase, because it's easier to track in that pane.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177029">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567826"> That's enlightening. Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567827">The Treasury Board is requesting $1.7 billion under vote 15 for compensation adjustments, including compensation for members of the Public Service Alliance of Canada, or PSAC. Of that $1.7 billion, how much is compensation for PSAC employees?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177048">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567828">That's a great question, and one I'd have to actually calculate. I have no objections to providing it to the committee. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567829">Mr. Yalkin, I don't know if you perhaps have that on hand, but if not, we'd be happy to get back to the committee with that answer.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="20">(1720)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177053">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567830">I would appreciate that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567831">Regardless of the amount, one question comes to mind. I'm curious. Is the amount allocated for employee compensation gross or net?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567832">The compensation was taxed. In a sense, the government recuperated money from the compensation for damages caused by Phoenix. Will you be giving the committee the amount before taxes, or will the amount reflect the actual cost once the taxes were collected by the government?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177073">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567833"> I'll pass that question to Mr. Yalkin. I understand there are discussions going on with the CRA, but Mr. Yalkin might have a better line of sight on that.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177077">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="244021" Type="28">Ms. Karen Cahill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567834">I can take this question if you don't mind, Glenn.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6567835">Ms. Vignola, discussions are ongoing with the Canada Revenue Agency, or CRA. In terms of the taxation of damage payments, we must consult with the CRA.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177087">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567836">Okay. I have received calls from people reporting that the amount received on March 3 was taxed.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177090">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567837"> Thank you, Ms. Vignola.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567838"> We'll now go to Mr. Green for six minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177092">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green (Hamilton Centre, NDP)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567839">Thank you very much.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567840">I apologize because I know this has been touched on. I might be repeating things here, but I'm trying to get clear on PHAC's $2.5 billion under vote 1c, operating expenditures, and votes 5c and 10c to support research, development and purchases of vaccines. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567841">That seems like a lot of money. In terms of the breakdowns, how much of it is going to development versus purchasing?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567842">I'm still unclear if this question has already been asked, so my apologies if it has.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177103">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567843">Mr. Green, it's a great question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567844">From my standpoint, I could give you a line of sight in terms of the payment authority that is being sought. The fact that—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177108">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567845">Could I ask you a very particular question? Has a payment authority been sought to start a Crown corporation to do our own domestic development of vaccines or is this money going all out to the private sector? </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567846">You'll recall the money we invested in the NRC, which gave the technology for the base science of the vaccines. That's been privatized by corporations. We haven't really seen the kind of co-operation that we thought we were going to get. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567847">If we look at a dollar-value analysis of this, for $2.5 billion, has the government sought authority to start a Crown corporation for our own domestic production? </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177129">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567848">Specifically on that, we do have funding that is going to a whole host of different initiatives. In terms of identifying specifically the amount that is going for domestic capacity and how much of that is listed here, we—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177139">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567849">When we talk about specificity, I want to get specific. Has the government sought a payment authority to start a Crown corporation for domestic production?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177141">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567850">I would have to get back to you specifically on that. The creation of a Crown corporation—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177143">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567851">That would be a specific type of financial authority. Is that correct? It's different from, say, doling this money out to the private sector or to.... </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567852">I'm looking at the scale of $2.5 billion. At this stage of the pandemic, how we haven't nationalized domestic production while we're buying vaccines at $35 a pop is beyond me. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567853">While we're negotiating this $2.5 billion, the question remains: How much priority has this government at this juncture thought about or explored our own domestic...? When I say “domestic”, I don't just mean Canadian companies but Crown corporation or a nationalized program. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177153">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567854"> I understand the question. I'm just not able to give you an answer right now.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177154">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567855">Just for future questions, Mr. Purves, if they were to start that direction to do a Crown corporation and, in theory, the Treasury Board were to come to this committee and I were to ask you that, would that be flagged as a separate type of financial authority from the financial authority to distribute money generally to the private sector? Would that require a different kind of thing that I'd be able to pick up in a report?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="25">(1725)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177157">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567856">It all depends on how organizations are structured and whether they're appropriation dependent. If they're effectively provided statutory authority—so they're separate and distinct and are not appropriation dependent—that would be outside our realm. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567857">We're in the business, really, of identifying all the departments that are appropriation dependent and the funding they're seeking, and being able to provide answers to the best of our ability on what that funding is going towards.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567858">In terms of the actual—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177168">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567859"> I will save that question, then, for a future date. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567860"> I will bring you back to this one to get clarity. When we talk about the difference between a grant and a contribution, do the contributions have with them some kind of equity or some kind of IP share? Do we get anything when we do a contribution that is separate and different from the parameters around a grant? </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567861">When I hear “grant”, what I hear is money that we just give away with no strings attached. When I hear “contribution”, I hear that there's a relationship or a partnership. Is a contribution a partnership or is it just another word for grant?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177176">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567862">Under the policy of transfer payments, there are two main mechanisms for grants and contributions. The main difference is that with a grant, most of the work goes into eligibility up front, in terms of a recipient receiving funds. Thereafter, there is minimal to no reporting. Basically, if you meet the criteria, the money goes. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567863">On a contribution, there is more reporting. There may be some check-ins for release of expenditures over time.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177187">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567864"> As a supplementary to that—I apologize, as I'm dwindling down here—I recall the words “contribution agreements” being used with the WE scenario. Are contribution agreements used for sole source? </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567865">Are they a separate type of procurement that allows for the government to distribute money in a different way than it would under procurement strategies and typical policies?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177191">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567866">It is different from a procurement process covered by a different set of policies. In terms of sole source, that's really more of a contracting term. You have to look at the program, the requirements for the program, what it is that the department says they're going to do in terms of the assessment of proposals they receive, etc.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177196">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567867">This has been very helpful. Thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177197">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567868">Thank you, Mr. Green.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567869">We will now go into our second round</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567870">We will start with Ms. Harder for five minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177199">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567871">I guess the <Affiliation DbId="253368" Type="23">minister</Affiliation> isn't here. I would love to address this to him. I will let you decide who's the best to answer it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567872">The federal government in recent years has awarded internal contracts to Cisco Systems. There have been a number of articles written about that and, of course, those contracts have been to the tune of about $260 million. It was stated that there's “a pattern of dependency by Ottawa on a single network provider that has all but shut out competing bids.”</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567873">Are you worried at all that there is a lack of diversity in the offer of networking, given the cost of these systems?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177224">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567874">Thank you, Ms. Harder.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567875">I think Ms. Read or Ms. Cahill are better placed to answer this question.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177230">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="244021" Type="28">Ms. Karen Cahill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567876">I believe it would be Ms. Read, Glenn.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177236">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271918" Type="28">Ms. Sonya Read (Acting Assistant Secretary, Digital and Services Policy, Treasury Board Secretariat)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567877"> Thank you very much for the question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567878">To be honest, I think Shared Services Canada would probably be best placed in terms of the distribution of contracts and respective networking capacity within the Government of Canada, but certainly that is a consideration in terms of ensuring the ability of the networks to be robust and to have backup capacity.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177242">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567879">Ms. Read, I'm sorry, but in <Affiliation DbId="253368" Type="23">Minister Duclos</Affiliation>' department, is he not ultimately responsible for this file?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177245">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271918" Type="28">Ms. Sonya Read</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567880">For Shared Services Canada...?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567881">
                <B>Ms. Rachael Harder:</B> Yes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567882">
                <B>Ms. Sonya Read:</B> No. That would be under the <Affiliation DbId="246420" Type="4">Minister of Digital Government</Affiliation>.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177250">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567883">Yes, and the Minister of Digital Government is <Affiliation DbId="246420" Type="4">Minister Murray</Affiliation>, and she falls under <Affiliation DbId="253368" Type="23">Minister Duclos</Affiliation>.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177254">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271918" Type="28">Ms. Sonya Read</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567884">Yes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567885"> From a departmental perspective, Shared Services Canada would have that information, but we would be happy to follow up and provide that information back to the committee.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="30">(1730)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177259">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567886">Are you not able to answer any questions with regard to Cisco?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177265">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271918" Type="28">Ms. Sonya Read</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567887">I'm not able to answer any questions with regard to Cisco at this time, no.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177270">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567888">That's convenient.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567889">Within the supplementary estimates, it is stated that $3.8 million under vote 1c is being put aside “for the Canadian Digital Service to provide critical digital products and services” related to COVID-19. Which products and services will be provided through the Canadian Digital Service? What is that $3.8 million being used for?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177273">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="244021" Type="28">Ms. Karen Cahill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567890"> I'll take this one. Thank you for the question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567891">Actually, most of the $3.8 million will be used to support and, as you know, in conjunction with Health Canada, develop the COVID alert application. Also, the money is being used to add new features to the application itself.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177277">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567892">Within the supplementary (C)s, there is $395,221 that is being allocated for funding for the Black entrepreneurship program. Am I correct in stating this figure?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177281">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567893">I believe so. Can you tell me exactly which department you're referring to on that front? I think it's for ACOA—correct me if I'm wrong—and for CEDQ as well. It's a horizontal item that's covered under two different portfolios. I could speak to the broader initiative if you'd like.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177296">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567894">No. I just find it interesting that it's a little more than $300,000, that $395,000 is being allocated to this program. The government has definitely used this program as a massive opportunity to virtue signal, but under $400,000 is actually what's being invested, so—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177307">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567895">Virtue signal...? What does “virtue signal” mean?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177315">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567896">—it just—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11186445">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567897">Virtue signal—holy Christ.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11186447">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567898">Chair...?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177319">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567899">Mr. Green, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177323">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567900">I trust that will not be taken from my time. That was extremely rude of Mr. Green.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177326">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567901">No, it will not be taken from your time.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177329">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567902">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177334">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567903">Ms. Harder, typically when departments come in through supplementary estimates, in the case of ACOA or CEDQ, it's for the incremental funding they need up and beyond what they've received. There has been an announcement of $93.1 million over 2021 and to 2023-24, with up to $221 million in partnership with Canadian financial institutions to support this initiative. This includes an ecosystem fund of $53 million and a knowledge hub of $6.5 million. There's surveying, and analysis of surveys, of $2 million—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177340">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567904">What is the additional $395,000 needed for?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177344">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567905">This is to support the ecosystem fund component that these organizations are involved with. Of course, that fund supports Black-led businesses.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177349">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567906">What does that mean? “Ecosystem” is a nice word, but what does that mean? Ultimately, what difference is this making in the lives of Canadians?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177357">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567907">Thank you, Ms. Harder.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567908">If you could answer that quickly, Mr. Purves, it would be greatly appreciated.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177359">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567909">It's to support Black-led business organizations across Canada by funding their business development services. If you like, we can come back with a more detailed response on that to the committee. I'd be happy to do that.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177365">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567910">Thank you, Mr. Purves. I appreciate that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567911">Thank you, Ms. Harder.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567912">We'll now go to Mr. Jowhari for five minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177367">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264253" Type="47">Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567913">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567914">Mr. Purves, it's good to have you and your team back. Please extend our regards to the <Affiliation DbId="253368" Type="23">minister</Affiliation>. We're looking forward to having him in full health and back at the committee again.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567915">You started talking about horizontal items. I understand that in the supplementary estimates (C) we have about eight horizontal items. I'm interested in about two or three of them. Can you give us an idea of what's included there? Specifically, I'd very much like to get some feedback around the $55 million, I believe, in funding for the integrity of the Canada border and asylum system. That's broken into two pieces. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567916">If you could start by commenting on that one, I'd really appreciate it.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="35">(1735)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177383">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567917">To give people a sense of what horizontal initiatives are, whenever we table supplementary estimates, if there's funding for an initiative that covers multiple areas and multiple departments, we always list it as a horizontal initiative. We try to flag that as part of our transparency.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567918">In terms of that specific initiative, it's used to provide emergency housing and support services to improve the interoperability of various information technology systems related to asylum systems in order to increase administrative efficiency and the speed of processing claims.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567919">Of that $55.6 million that you're referring to, Mr. Jowhari, $6 million is going to the Canada Border Services Agency, about $22.3 million to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, and about $1.9 million to the Immigration and Refugee Board. Then, of course, under the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and Shared Services Canada, there are additional amounts of about $3 million in particular pertaining to some of these.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177420">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264253" Type="47">Mr. Majid Jowhari</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567920">Can you comment on the $6 million that's going to the Canada Border Services Agency? What is this for?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177424">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567921">I'm wondering if my colleague Rod Greenough has that open—he might be a little quicker than me—to be able to explain it.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177430">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264253" Type="47">Mr. Majid Jowhari</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567922">Yes, perhaps it could be quick, because I want to go to the regional air transport initiative of about $44 million. I'm trying to get some feedback around what that money is for. Perhaps you could quickly talk about the $6 million.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177434">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567923">Of that amount, it's effectively part of a broad range of initiatives to increase the capacity and efficiency of the system. Specifically, that amount is going to project definition in the early implementation of the new automated IT security screening system. In terms of milestones, they expect project definition completion by March. Then they're expecting effectively the broader project implementation to be completed in June of 2022.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177444">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264253" Type="47">Mr. Majid Jowhari</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567924"> Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567925">We also have another $44 million of funding for regional air transportation initiatives. About $10 million of it is for Atlantic Canada. What specifically are these funds earmarked for?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177452">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567926">This funding is intended to promote reliable and affordable access to critical regional and local airport and air carrier operations and services. Each organization provides grants and contributions to municipalities, provinces and territories, not-for-profit organizations, businesses and indigenous organizations to help maintain essential air transportation services that support local economies.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177462">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264253" Type="47">Mr. Majid Jowhari</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567927">Are any of these COVID-related or are these just normal initiatives?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177467">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567928">We have them tagged as COVID-related because they came as a reaction to the COVID initiative and the disruptions that have impacted that industry.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177474">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264253" Type="47">Mr. Majid Jowhari</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567929">We have about $31 million for violence against indigenous women and girls. The major portion of that is about $29 million. With about 15 seconds left, can you shed some light on that? Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177479">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567930">These are operating expenditures and contributions intended to support community-led solutions for reducing violence and addressing harms associated with attendance at federal Indian day schools, addressing service gaps and wage disparities in 46 emergency shelters, and supporting off-reserve shelters used by indigenous women and children.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177486">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567931">Thank you, Mr. Purves and Mr. Jowhari.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567932">We'll go now to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177491">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567933">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567934">Up to $8 million is included under vote 5 to process outstanding applications for the Canada emergency student benefit, or CESB.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567935">First, how many outstanding applications are there?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567936">Second, why are they outstanding?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567937">Lastly, could there be other costs associated with the fraudulent CERB and CESB applications?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="40">(1740)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177501">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567938">I hate to interrupt. I didn't catch the beginning of your question. I'm very sorry.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177506">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567939">No problem, Mr. Purves.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567940">Up to $8 million is included under vote 5 to process outstanding applications for the CESB.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567941">How many outstanding applications are there? Why are they outstanding? Is there any money to cover the cost of recovering amounts that some people fraudulently obtained at the expense of students and workers?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177521">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567942">Ms. Vignola, I think what you're referring to is our central vote 5, if I understand correctly. You're referring to the $8 million that was in there. Just to back up, our vote 5 is intended to provide a bridge to the next supply bill, so if a department has an urgent cash need, it is able to extend.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567943">In this regard, what happened was that some recipients were in need of funding and that vote 5 allocation went to provide for those recipients. I'm wondering whether my colleague, Rod Greenough, actually has the number of recipients that received that funding, which I think is another part of your question.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177542">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271813" Type="28">Mr. Rod Greenough (Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates, Treasury Board Secretariat)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567944">I don't have the number of recipients, but there were about 4,000 claims made previous to December 31 that were still outstanding. That's what the $8 million is to cover, as these claims are processed.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177546">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567945">Thank you, Mr. Greenough and thank you, Ms. Vignola.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567946">We'll go now to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177548">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567947">Thank you very much.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567948">The Public Health Agency of Canada is requesting $1.7 billion under vote 1c for operating expenditures to support the rapid bulk procurement of essential personal protective equipment and the necessary medical equipment and supplies on behalf of the federal government, provinces and territories.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567949">How much personal protective equipment purchased with this funding would go to the national emergency strategic stockpile?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177553">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567950"> I don't have the answer to that question, Mr. Green. I wish I could give you that breakdown, and I'd be happy to follow up—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177555">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567951">When they submit their supplementary estimates and they ask for this spending authority, are there briefing notes and documentation that would give them a rationale for the need for this funding?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177558">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567952">Yes, so—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177563">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567953">In that rationale, would the purchase of this $1.7 billion be refilling the millions of dollars that were thrown out in 2019? Is that to supplement the closure of the three warehouses for the national emergency stockpile, or is it above and beyond that?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177568">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567954">This effectively was part of an allocation that was identified early on as part of the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act, and as a consequence of that act expiring at the end of December, this [<I>Technical difficulty—Editor</I>] to continue the purchases related to these initiatives. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177575">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567955">Would you not agree that in the definition, Mr. Purves—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177578">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567956">Now what I [<I>Technical difficulty—Editor</I>] of the key commodities purchased—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177580">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567957">Mr. Purves, your answer is pixelated.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177583">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567958">I'm happy to walk through—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177587">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567959">It's pixelated, so I can't hear it, and I'm not interested in the walk-through. I'm interested in the answer. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567960">What I'm interested in is finding out the rationale for the approval of this $1.7 billion. How much of it went to the NESS? Certainly that would be in your briefing documents.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177591">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567961">I don't have that specifically. I do have the breakdown of the types of commodities that have been used to support this initiative: disposable gowns—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177593">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567962">May I ask you two questions in short order, Mr. Purves?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567963">Are you familiar with the national emergency strategic stockpile? Just give a yes or no.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="45">(1745)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177598">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567964">Yes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177602">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567965">Okay. Do you not agree that the description of the purchasing under this category would fit the description of the purpose of the national emergency strategic stockpile?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177603">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567966">What you're asking for effectively is just the federal stockpile. I don't have the breakdown between the federal and the list of provinces and the territories, Mr. Green.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567967">I'm happy to go back—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177608">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567968">The national emergency strategic stockpile was originally stocked to provide everybody in an emergency. The federal government shut down three warehouses in 2019, on the eve of the pandemic. We haven't forgotten about that, and we will be getting back to that in short order.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177612">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567969">Thank you, Mr. Green.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567970">We'll now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177615">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley (Edmonton West, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567971">Thanks, Mr. Chair. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567972">Mr. Purves and others, it's good to see you again.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567973">I have a question for Mr. Purves. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567974">How is TBS tracking COVID spending department by department? You talked about publicizing the authorities and planned spending, but with the actual spending, the cash that's gone out the door, how are you tracking that?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177618">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567975">Different departments, of course, are responsible for their implementation of the initiatives. When you—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177621">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567976">The data is making its way to TBS, is it not?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177622">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567977">Through the CFMRS, certainly, as departments report and so forth, and we have our own informal tracking that we—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177625">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567978">How frequently are they reporting that?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177628">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567979">We are trying to get departments to provide us with a rough sense of what they're doing on the basis of when information is available. For transfers, for instance, it's much easier for departments to report that, because it's easier to be able to track that. With respect to programs that have implementation issues and so forth, it is more lagged, because it's based on the CFMRS system with the receiver general.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177631">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567980">Are the department CFOs reporting the spending to Treasury Board?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177635">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245660" Type="28">Mr. Glenn Purves</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567981">With departmental CFOs, on an informal basis, we have started asking them what it is that they are spending. That is an initiative that we're working through with the CFO community. We don't have a system that talks to all the other systems, where you could just press a button and be able to get this instantaneously.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177638">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567982">I understand that. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567983">I'm glad you were talking about trying to be more transparent to parliamentarians about various programs, whether with GC InfoBase and that. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567984">In that light, Mr. Chair, I'd like to introduce a matter-at-hand motion in this regard. I'll read it into the record right now. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567985"> I move that the Treasury Board Secretariat provide the committee with all monthly COVID-19 expenditures reports and COVID spending data as disclosed by the chief financial officers of all respective departments, and that they provide this information to the committee no later than March 17, 2021, and update this committee on a monthly basis by the 15th of the month. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567986">While I respect that there's information on GC InfoBase, it's not actual spending. It's the authorities or planned spending. I think we owe it to this committee, but also to Canadians, to see the actual spending on COVID.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177653">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567987"> Thank you, Mr. McCauley.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567988">Is there any discussion on that matter-at-hand motion?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567989">Ms. Vignola, I see your hand up.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177655">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567990">Could I receive Mr. McCauley's text by email?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177663">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567991">I'll send it to our clerk right now.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177666">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567992">While Mr. McCauley is doing that, I see Mr. Fergus has his hand up.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177672">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264499" Type="2">Mr. Greg Fergus (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567993">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567994">I just want to support Ms. Vignola's efforts. We need an accurate text in French so that we can see it and review it. It would be good if a translation could be done quickly and distributed to members.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="50">(1750)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177676">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567995">It was translated for you as I was reading it into the record, as matters at hand are. This is a continuing trick by people on your side, Mr. Fergus, to try to delay things. We've seen it repeatedly, but it was translated as I read it into the record.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177679">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567996">Thank you, Mr. McCauley.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567997">I will reread the motion. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6567998">Mr. Kusmierczyk, did you have your hand up?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177684">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6567999">Yes, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568000">I just wanted to request that the motion be reread, if possible.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177686">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568001">Certainly.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568002">Mr. McCauley, can you reread the motion, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177687">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568003">Sure. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568004"> It is that the Treasury Board Secretariat provide the committee with all monthly COVID-19 expenditures reports and COVID spending data as disclosed by the chief financial officers of all respective departments, and that they provide this to the committee no later than March 17, 2021, and update us monthly by the 15th of the month, each and every month.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177691">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264098" Type="27">The Clerk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568005">Mr. Chair, I apologize for interrupting, but I have received the French text of the motion. If you wish, I can read that into the record now.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177696">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568006">Please, Mr. Clerk, if you would do that, I think that would also be beneficial for those on the committee.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568007">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177700">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264098" Type="27">The Clerk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568008">The French text is as follows:</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568009">
                <Quote>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left">That, in the context of its study of the Supplementary Estimates (C), 2020-21, the committee send for, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, all monthly COVID-19 Expenditures Reports and COVID-19 spending data as disclosed by the chief financial officers of all respective departments and that these documents be provided to the committee no later than Wednesday, March 17, 2021.</QuotePara>
                </Quote>
              </ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6568010">I have the text in English as well. I can try to distribute it to the members by email now, if the committee wishes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177714">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568011">Yes, please. Thank you very much.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568012">While that is happening, I see your hand is up, Mr. MacKinnon.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177718">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568013">I'm happy to have Mr. McCauley speak to his motion if he so wishes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11179014">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568014">No.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11179015">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568015">Okay.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568016">My only point is that this information either has, is or will appear in various formats in the past, present or future, but it's unlikely that the Treasury Board Secretariat is the source of such information. Of course, the public accounts will be published, to state the obvious. Of course, the Department of Finance regularly reports on these matters. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568017">I don't know about Mr. McCauley, but there's nothing more transparent than government spending. If he's sending our friends here from the Treasury Board Secretariat on a make-work project, it will be resolved in short order in any event in the regular course of financial reporting.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177727">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568018"> Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568019">I see that Mr. McCauley's hand is up. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177730">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568020">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568021">I am not too keen on waiting a year or so for it to show up in the public accounts. I'm making the assumption that TBS has this information or that it's being supplied to TBS by the CFOs. I think we owe it to ourselves to have this information.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568022"> I'll give you a perfect example. We found out under COVID spending that Fisheries and Oceans spent over $100,000 of taxpayers' money to put up people at a luxury millionaire resort on Vancouver Island, which had absolutely nothing to do with COVID at all, as I have stated.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568023"> I'd like to see how much more taxpayers' money is either being misspent under the guise of COVID spending or in the actual spending itself. The whole reason this committee exists in Parliament is to oversee spending. I see no reason why, under transparency and openness by default, we would not welcome this information.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="55">(1755)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177745">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568024">Thank you, Mr. McCauley.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568025">Mr. Kusmierczyk.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177749">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568026">Just to reiterate what my colleague Mr. MacKinnon stated, I do feel very strongly that this is a matter that is best directed to the Department of Finance and not TBS. This is not a TBS matter. That's my first objection.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568027">My second objection is that I'd really like to ask Mr. McCauley to make a case for why we would go beyond the regular schedule of financial reporting that is expected and that is on the calendar in terms of the financial reporting that happens on a regular basis, and why we would need to have a month-by-month account when, again, this is part of the regular calendar and regularly scheduled accounting of expenditures. I'm just wondering what the argument is for going outside of that regular process.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177760">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568028">Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568029">I see that Mr. McCauley's hand is up.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177764">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568030">I could ask what the reason is for hiding this. We are not seeing it on GC InfoBase. We've asked in the past. We've been told by TBS at previous meetings that it's all on GC InfoBase. However, that's the authorities or planned spending and not the actual cash.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568031">There are untold billions being spent, and I think we owe it to Canadians as members of this committee and as members of Parliament to see this spending.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177766">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568032">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568033">Mr. MacKinnon, I see that your hand is up.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177767">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568034">Let's just disabuse Canadians of the notion that they are not going to see the spending. Mr. McCauley, you know much better than that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568035">There is a reason why we return to this committee to examine witnesses on estimates and supplementary estimates on multiple occasions. There's a reason why our financial reporting systems are set up as they are. There's also a reason why real-time reporting of finances and spending is not possible in an enterprise as large as the Government of Canada.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568036"> I know Mr. McCauley knows that. I know that history has yielded literally dozens of mechanisms to ensure the financial transparency that he hopes to achieve here today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568037"> What I would submit is that forcing officials to create new instruments and new ways of doing financial reporting—which is really only reinventing the wheel—is just a make-work project for public servants who are extremely busy getting us through a pandemic. He's looking for financial reporting by the very people who are working right now to help us manage our way through a pandemic, who are buying vaccines, who are supplying PPE—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11179045">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568038"> Steven, please....</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177777">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568039">Order, Mr. McCauley.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177781">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568040">—who are doing the work of getting Canada and getting Canadians through this pandemic. Those are the very people he is targeting with this motion by having them create new and strange financial reporting tools that the government is ill-prepared and not set up to provide.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568041"> Mr. McCauley, I think you know this. In fact, I know you know this, and I know you know that these kinds of dilatory manoeuvres here at committee are not the kinds of things that are going to serve Canadians in the long run.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177789">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568042"> Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568043">Mr. Fergus is next, and then Ms. Harder.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568044">Mr. Fergus.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177793">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264499" Type="2">Mr. Greg Fergus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568045"> Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568046">I don't want to repeat what my colleague from Gatineau, Mr. MacKinnon, just said. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568047">However, I want to say that I'm a member of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and that we conduct this exact type of analysis in that committee. We receive financial statements from all departments and we mainly review the analyses provided by the Office of the Auditor General.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568048">Mr. McCauley is an experienced member who has served on both sides of the House. He certainly knows—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="18" Mn="00">(1800)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177804">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568049">Both sides...?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177805">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264499" Type="2">Mr. Greg Fergus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568050">—that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts will receive the data.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568051">My colleague, Mr. Green, who sits with me on that committee, knows that we spend a great deal of time reviewing the government's financial statements to ensure that these amounts are being spent correctly. When they aren't, all our colleagues on the public accounts committee participate in the fine and unanimous tradition of reviewing the financial statements on a regular basis and making sure that the work is done properly.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568052">If Mr. McCauley insists on moving this dilatory motion, it will only force our hard-working public servants to come up with work that's already being done in another committee.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568053">Mr. Chair, I want to know whether I can ask the clerk of our committee, through you, the following question. Doesn't this fall more under the purview of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts than the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568054">There's a fine parliamentary tradition in the House of Commons of not duplicating committee work. When a committee does a job, we let the committee do its work. We don't have the power to reinvent this.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568055">I'm asking you this question, Mr. Kitchen. I would like you to ask the clerk to clarify this issue for me.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177819">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568056">Thank you, Mr. Fergus.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568057">I'm looking at the clerk to see whether he feels comfortable answering that question.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177821">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264098" Type="27">The Clerk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568058">What I can say, Mr. Chair, is only from a procedural point of view. From a substantive point of view, you'd have to speak to the analysts. I know that Raphaëlle has her hand up.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568059">Ultimately what I would say from a procedural point of view is that if the chair has ruled the motion in order, then the chair has ruled that the motion is in order and it's before the committee. The committee can then consider it, as it would any other motion the chair has ruled in order, and then can amend it, vote on it and decide it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568060">With regard to whether the content is actually within the mandate of the committee, I'm probably the wrong person to ask. I would refer this to Raphaëlle, who will be able to answer that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568061">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177826">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568062">Thank you, Mr. Clerk.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568063">If the analyst feels comfortable answering that.... Raphaëlle, do you have any comments?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177829">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="268275" Type="26">Ms. Raphaëlle Deraspe (Committee Researcher)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568064">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568065">I'm going to comment in French.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6568066">If you look at the mandate of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, you'll see that the committee must review the format and content of all budget documents.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568067">Since the COVID-19 expenditures are part of the budget documents, this matter would be related to the mandate of the committee.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177833">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568068"> Thank you, Raphaëlle. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177836">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568069">Can I just make one quick comment?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177837">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568070">Mr. McCauley, I actually have Ms. Harder, then you and then Mr. Kusmierczyk. We'll let Ms. Harder go first. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177838">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271750" Type="47">Ms. Rachael Harder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568071">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568072">This matter at hand is actually quite simple, which is to say that the mandate letter of every single minister within this government states the same thing, and that is this. I will quote directly. It says, “I”, being the <Affiliation DbId="214296" Type="1">Prime Minister</Affiliation>, “expect us to continue to raise the bar on openness, effectiveness and transparency in government. This means a government that is open by default.”</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568073">I repeat: “open by default”. This means that every single Liberal member sitting at this table should be facilitating the procurement of this document and this information that has been asked for today. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568074">Instead they are arguing against it. That's not “open by default”. The government should make this information available and it should be accessible to this committee. It's totally appropriate. Be open. Be transparent. That's what it says in the mandate latter. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="18" Mn="05">(1805)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177848">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568075">Thank you, Ms. Harder.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568076">Mr. McCauley.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177850">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568077">I have a question I'll pose to Mr. Ermuth. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568078">Does this data already exist?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568079">We hear Mr. MacKinnon go on that this would grind the government to a halt and stop vaccine procurements and everything if this information were made available. I believe it is already existing. Can you confirm that for us and easily share it?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177856">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568080">Mr. Chair, we've had ongoing discussions with departments around gathering information in terms of this, and these will be the types of questions that have come up.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568081">On some of the work we have done and the approach we have taken, with my colleague, Mr. Purves, in terms of looking at the measures, the focus has been on looking at measures up until this point, but messages have gone out to departments saying in anticipation of transparency and questions from Canadians and parliamentarians that there would be at some point a request to bring this information in. In terms of gathering, collating, it's doable. Some of the information will be readily available. The question is to what extent it will be consistent across departments.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568082">Again, anything is possible. If the committee is asking us, the question is going to be the timing and the extent to which we can live up to the depth of the request at a specific time. As we get closer to year-end reporting, I will present at public accounts, so we do have some of this information, which will come in more detail at that point, but again it becomes what the committee tasks us to do and what we can do.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177868">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568083">In my understanding you have all of this because it was brought up a year ago in your CFO meeting. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177871">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568084">We have all of which...? I'm sorry.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177873">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568085">You have all of the information, the spending information, that I'm asking for.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177877">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568086">Again, the question really becomes to what extent and what is specifically....</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568087">Mr. Chair, there was a question, I believe it was question 172, where some of this information came out, so absolutely there is some detailed information related to that. Departments are, or should be, tracking the expenditures related to measures and some of those things.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177881">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568088">Perfect, so we have the information already.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177884">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="232588" Type="28">Mr. Roger Ermuth</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568089">The hard part is going to be, again, some of the roll-up stuff. The question is really to what extent and to what level of the specifics is that request and the amount of time to pull that together.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177888">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568090">Thank you, Mr. McCauley.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568091">Mr. Kusmierczyk.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177889">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568092">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568093">For me, the fundamental question is this: What is Mr. McCauley not getting under the current system. We're seeing reports published on a regular basis and the information is contained therein. In addition to that, it provides the folks gathering the information the opportunity to make sure that the information is sound. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568094">Something that's important to keep in mind is the quality of the information that's contained in those regular reports, which provides us an opportunity to make good policy and good judgments because we know that the information has been checked and double-checked and due diligence has been carried out. Again, the fundamental question I have that Mr. McCauley hasn't answered is what he is not getting from the current— </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177904">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568095"> What I'm not getting is what you're trying to hide and why you're trying to filibuster public spending.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177905">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568096">Mr. McCauley, please....</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568097">Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have the floor.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177908">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264254" Type="47">Mr. Irek Kusmierczyk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568098">I'll yield the floor, because again, I'm looking for that answer. I haven't seen it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568099">Just to reiterate what Mr. MacKinnon had stated, we have hard-working officials here who are focused on the task at hand. We have an enormous challenge here that we're dealing with during the pandemic under incredibly stressful situations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568100">You haven't made the case that this is something that is absolutely necessary, and that's what I'm looking for. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568101">Again, I'm open to your ideas, as always, but I'm looking for you to make the case that changing the normal course of reporting is required because you're not getting what you're looking for. That's the case that I need made.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="18" Mn="10">(1810)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177910">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568102">Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk. I believe you were asking that question for Mr. McCauley to possibly answer. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568103">Mr. McCauley, do you have an answer?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177911">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568104">It's very clear that my colleagues across the way are just trying to filibuster or block. We've heard from Mr. Ermuth that most of this information already exists. I know it's getting reported monthly already from the CFOs. It is very little work to collate it and publish it to this committee. Our oversight is spending. Our oversight is expenditures on behalf of the taxpayers. Simply getting access to planned spending or authorized spending is not adequate.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568105">I'm ready to put it to a vote. If my colleagues around the table agree, then I think we should move on.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177916">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568106">Thank you, Mr. McCauley.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568107">I see one more hand up.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568108">Ms. Vignola.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177927">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269098" Type="40">Mrs. Julie Vignola</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568109"> In short, I gather that Mr. McCauley wants to receive monthly reports, Mr. Ermuth says that we have some of the information and Mr. Fergus says that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts also receives the information and that the information already exists.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568110">However, a timing issue may need to be considered. March 17 is next week. I gather that the information exists, but that it must be shared between committees.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568111">Is that right?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177932">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568112">Yes, I believe so.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568113">I see no other hands up. Is there consent to adopt this motion? If it's not unanimous, I will call on the clerk to conduct a vote.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568114">First off, is there unanimous consent to approve this? </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177939">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568115">No.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177942">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568116">Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568117">Mr. Clerk.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177946">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264098" Type="27">The Clerk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568118">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568119">For the benefit of all members, I just want to make sure that I have the correct text of the motion that Mr. McCauley read. I would like to reread it to ensure that it is correct.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568120">Mr. McCauley, if you can please confirm, the text I have is this: </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568121">
                <Quote>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2"> That, in the context of its study of the Supplementary Estimates (C) 2020-21, the committee send for, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, all monthly COVID-19 expenditures reports and COVID-19 spending data as disclosed by the chief financial officers of all respective departments and that these documents be provided to the committee no later than Wednesday, March 17, 2021, and then update this committee on a monthly basis by the 15th of the month.</QuotePara>
                </Quote>
              </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568122">Is that correct?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177953">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264434" Type="47">Mr. Kelly McCauley</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568123">Yes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11187089">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264098" Type="27">The Clerk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568124">Mr. Chair, it is a tie vote.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177956">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568125"> We have a tie and I vote yes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568126">(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568127">
                <B>The Chair:</B> Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568128">As we move forward, I want to thank the witnesses for bearing with us as we go through this. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568129">I see we still have one more person to ask questions in this round.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568130">Mr. MacKinnon, you have five minutes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568131">As we look at the time, for clarification—and we thank the witnesses and the interpreters for being here—we will finish after Mr. MacKinnon's five minutes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="18" Mn="15">(1815)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177975">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568132"> Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6568133">I'm not speaking for any public servants, but this motion that just passed, with a deadline of seven days hence for information that requires double, triple and quadruple checking and translation, is not only dilatory but borderline abusive. I want to apologize on behalf of, certainly, the members of my party on this committee to all public servants who are going to have to work 24-7 to provide that information. This is an appalling order that we've just imposed on public servants when we have financial transparency instruments already in place. I can't imagine anything, frankly, more dilatory or abusive towards public servants.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568134">That having been said, I want to thank our friends from the Treasury Board Secretariat for being here today.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6568135">I know that you worked together on developing the white paper on official languages. However, I don't know which of you can answer this question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568136"> Can you describe the Treasury Board Secretariat's involvement in the development of the official languages plan and white paper?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11177994">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271062" Type="28">Mr. Tolga Yalkin (Assistant Deputy Minister, Workplace Policies and Services, Treasury Board Secretariat)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568137"> Yes, I would be very happy to respond to that question.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568138">We worked very closely with our colleagues at Canadian Heritage and also the Department of Justice to develop a number of the proposals that, evidently, were made public in the document of intent that was published a few weeks ago. There were a number of proposals in there that our role was critical in developing, including those that relate to the role of Treasury Board providing oversight, as well as a number of the administrative measures, including an increased focus on qualification standards, training for public servants and many others as well.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178010">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568139">What would you say are the main objectives of the Treasury Board Secretariat? What are the files or the areas you would feel most strongly in advancing in the context of the upcoming revision of the Official Languages Act?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178012">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271062" Type="28">Mr. Tolga Yalkin</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568140">There are a number of areas. It's always hard to identify those for which we are the most enthusiastic. The ones that I think would hold the most promise for public servants and also, I would say, Canadians, generally, to enhance their access to the public service, relate first to the work that is planned on the qualification standards.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568141">For the members who aren't familiar, the qualification standards are essentially the requirements that are set down for official language capabilities in the public service. The government has stated its intent that they may be revised. They would be revised with a view to improving the access of Canadians to jobs in the public service, the progress of public servants who are within the public service already as they augment their linguistic capabilities, and also the ability to recognize external standards as well, such as the DELF and the DALF, in order to easily facilitate the integration of Canadians who have a linguistic capability into the public service.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="18" Mn="20">(1820)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178047">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568142">The goal is always to ensure the vitality and use of both official languages in the public service.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178051">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="271062" Type="28">Mr. Tolga Yalkin</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568143">Exactly.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568144">The emphasis is on the idea that qualification standards should be tailored to the duties of public service positions so that public servants can better serve Canadians in the language of their choice.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178060">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264255" Type="47">Mr. Steven MacKinnon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568145">Excellent. I applaud your involvement, especially in the midst of COVID-19.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568146">I know that all public servants in the National Capital Region and in official language communities across the country are very anxious to see the modernization of these provisions. We must ensure that our official languages can thrive. As you know, this is a key component of the representativeness of public servants and government institutions. This concerns service for Canadians, but also work life. We want to always make sure that public servants can use the language of their choice internally, in meetings and during formal and informal discussions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568147">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178074">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568148">Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568149">Thank you very much for your question. We appreciate that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568150">With that said, we've now come to the end of the round. In light of time, if we were to start another round, it would add completely to the meeting, so I'm just looking to make certain that we have consensus that the meeting end. We can go a little bit longer if we have to.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568151">Can I see a thumbs-up for continuing for one more round? I'm seeing just two thumbs- up. I'm not seeing any others so—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178081">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264432" Type="47">Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568152">Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568153">Before we close, I would like to tell Mr. MacKinnon, through you, that the motion has gone through the normal process and has been passed by the committee members. If he had wanted to move an amendment, he should have done so.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568154">We aren't acting abusively at all by asking public servants to do this work. We know that the information exists. It's just a matter of sending it to the committee. So we don't need to hear Mr. MacKinnon play people like a fiddle. He's trying to blame the opposition, which is just doing its job.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568155">I want to remind him that his government hasn't tabled a budget since March 19, 2019. I think that's the least that can be done. The pandemic is an excuse for everything. However, at some point, we must do our job. We aren't abusing anyone here.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178099">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568156">Thank you very much, Mr. Paul-Hus.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568157">Mr. Green.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178106">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264482" Type="47">Mr. Matthew Green</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568158"> I would concede to Ms. Vignola if she is looking to speak to that point, but I do have an exception. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568159">In light of the editorial, the diatribe after our vote, I want to bring to the attention of this committee that if the government were interested in not abusing the public sector, then it wouldn't tax the damages on the Phoenix pay scandal. That's abusive, the fact that they're going to tax the damages that have been awarded by the courts on Phoenix pay. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568160">They come to us and talk about files they already have and could simply release to us, and this is somehow abusive. It's just beyond the pale and speaking in massive hyperbole, in my opinion.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11178112">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269093" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6568161"> Thank you, Mr. Green.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568162">Ms. Vignola, you did have your hand up, and as I've allowed others to have a quick say, if you would like to.... I see you're waving. Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568163"> I'm not seeing consensus to continue. Therefore, first of all, I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today: Mr. Purves, Mr. Ermuth, Ms. Read, Ms. Cahill, Mr. Yalkin and Mr. Greenough. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568164">We trust that all is well with the minister and that everything will transpire appropriately and in a timely manner for him.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6568165">I thank you all for being here. The meeting is adjourned.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
        </SubjectOfBusinessContent>
      </SubjectOfBusiness>
    </OrderOfBusiness>
  </HansardBody>
  <Appendix>
    <AppendixTitle>TreasuryBoardSecretariat-e </AppendixTitle>
    <AppendixContent>
      <ParaText>/Content/HOC/Committee/432/OGGO/Evidence/EV11166808/OGGO20/Eng/TreasuryBoardSecretariat-e.pdf</ParaText>
    </AppendixContent>
  </Appendix>
</Hansard>