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    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebate">Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Number">NUMBER 010</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Session">2nd SESSION</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Parliament">43rd PARLIAMENT</ExtractedItem>
    <ExtractedItem Name="Date">Wednesday, November 25, 2020</ExtractedItem>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="Institution">Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans</ExtractedItem>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="HeaderDate">November 25, 2020</ExtractedItem>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitle">NUMBER 010</ExtractedItem>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateFr">Comité permanent des pêches et des océans</ExtractedItem>
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    <ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerName">Mr. Ken McDonald</ExtractedItem>
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          <Timestamp Hr="15" Mn="40">(1540)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036120">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair (Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.))</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409086"> I now call this meeting to order.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409087">Welcome to meeting number 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 19, 2020, the committee is resuming its study of the implementation of Mi'kmaq treaty fishing rights to support a moderate livelihood.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409088">Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of September 23, 2020. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee. To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409089">Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of “floor”, “English” or “French”. For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is in meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409090">Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. Those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. I will remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409091">I would now like to welcome our witnesses.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409092">Today we have, from the Coldwater Lobster Association, President Bernie Berry. As an individual, we have Mr. Richard Williams, and as an individual, we have Alan Clarke, retired enforcement officer with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409093">We'll now proceed to remarks.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409094">For five minutes or less, Mr. Berry you can go first.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036130">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry (President, Coldwater Lobster Association)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409095"> Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for the opportunity to speak before the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409096">My name is Bernie Berry. I am president of the Coldwater Lobster Association. Our association was established five years ago and we represent approximately 200 members. Our membership is comprised of fishermen from Lobster Fishing Area 34, the largest LFA in eastern Canada, which encompasses an area of 8,500 square kilometres with 975 licences, the most licences in any LFA, and the largest landings per year at approximately 45 million to 47 million pounds per season.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409097">The issue before us today has created great strife within our communities for over 21 years with little to no progress. A moderate livelihood fishery will have implications for first nations fishermen, commercial fishermen and all coastal communities that rely on the fishery for their economic survival. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409098">The implementation process of a moderate livelihood fishery must be determined through open dialogue with all affected parties. The most critical reason for this matter of a moderate livelihood fishery not moving forward has been a lack of transparency in the negotiating process. The Crown has not carried out consistent or meaningful talks with either first nations or industry over the years. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409099">Industry has been excluded from the most crucial conversations when they concerned a transfer of access to the fishery and how that is going to be achieved without harming the industry. The industry must be included in the talks because it has had a long dependence on these resources for the success of not only its own businesses but its communities' economic well-being as well.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409100">The nation-to-nation negotiation model has not wielded any lasting success when it pertains to integrating first nations into the fishing industry through a moderate livelihood fishery. Continued exclusion of the fishing industry from these talks will not help to achieve a positive outcome in these discussions. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409101">All parties must have their concerns fully vetted to have any chance of a lasting agreement among all involved. This process must recognize that there can only be one regulator and one set of rules for all. We cannot entertain any thought of having multiple regulatory regimes. If there are multiple regulators for one fishery it will only lead to confusion, non-compliance, lack of science, lack of enforcement, etc. It simply will not work.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409102">In early September, Nanos Research was commissioned by Maritime and Quebec fishing associations to conduct a Canadian public opinion poll asking about how the fishery should be managed. In early November, Nanos Research was commissioned again to conduct a poll of Canadians, this time by The Globe and Mail and CTV, which included several questions from the earlier poll. One question in particular that was included in both surveys indicated that an overwhelming percentage of Canadians, 75%, believe there should be only one regulator and one set of rules laid out by the Government of Canada. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409103">Adjacency must be a major component of any discussions pertaining to a moderate livelihood also. First nations have traditional territories that they have hunted and fished. First nations cannot simply choose where they want to fish. Traditional grounds, areas and territories must be established and adhered to by first nations. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409104">Two first nations bands located in southwest Nova Scotia, namely Acadia First Nation and Bear River First Nation, have expressed major concerns about the infringement on their traditional grounds by outside first nations bands in Nova Scotia. The adjacency concern must be addressed in order to ensure there is no undue pressure on particular stocks in localized areas.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409105">Since 1999, almost $600 million has been allocated to buy first nations access into the commercial fishery. Today another process is under way to negotiate a moderate livelihood fishery that will cost the Crown hundreds of millions of additional dollars. Industry believes the Crown has fulfilled its fiduciary responsibility concern in the Marshall decision. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409106">The Marshall initiative, along with other government programs and the ingenuity of first nations, has created an economic success story within Atlantic Canada first nations. This success was documented in a recent Macdonald-Laurier Institute report, which showed the total on-reserve fishing revenue for Mi'kmaq and Maliseet in Nova Scotia province grew from $3 million in 1999 to $152 million in 2016. This number is expected to be much higher today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409107">The report evaluated the overall impact of the Marshall decision and highlighted impressive first nations fishing fleets, the dramatic increase in indigenous workers in the sector and the substantial financial benefits flowing to these communities. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409108"> It also documented the growth of onshore processing plants and related value-added businesses.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409109">Following the 1999 Marshall decision, indigenous and non-indigenous fishermen have fished side by side in numerous fisheries. There is no difference between the two parties on the water in the commercial season. Collectively it is fishermen trying to do their best for their families and their communities.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409110">The ultimate goal of any negotiation is to ensure that differences are put aside, but ultimately, equality and respect must prevail.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409111">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="15" Mn="45">(1545)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036185">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409112">Thank you, Mr. Berry.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409113">We'll go to Mr. Clarke, for five minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036193">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke ( South West Nova Scotia Area Chief of Enforcement, Department of Fisheries and Oceans (Retired), As an Individual)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409114"> Thank you. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409115">This is not the first time that I have addressed the fisheries standing committee on this issue. I joined DFO as a fishery officer in July 1979, and I retired in September 2014. I spent 35 years as a fishery officer, and of those 35 years, 25 were as the area chief of enforcement for the southwest Nova Scotia area of the Scotia Fundy, now Maritimes region. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409116">I managed compliance, monitoring, conservation and protection and enforcement through the 1990 Supreme Court Sparrow decision on the food, social and ceremonial, FSC, rites and through the September 1999 Supreme Court of Canada Marshall moderate livelihood decision and the Supreme Court's subsequent November 1999 clarification. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409117">For the sake of full disclosure and transparency, I also want to advise the committee that I have not now nor had at any time in the past any affiliation with any commercial fishery or any organization involving lobsters or any other fishery, for that matter. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409118">I also have no connection with any political party. I served under 10 Liberal and seven Conservative DFO ministers, and three Liberal and three Conservative prime ministers. Through my 35-year tenure with DFO enforcement, I have always conducted myself and our C and P programs in a non-partisan way, our only objective being efficient and productive fisheries management in all fisheries. This included proactive compliance, monitoring and enforcement to ensure the long-term sustainability of all fisheries for the future benefit of all Canadians.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409119">As you are aware, following the Marshall decision, the fisheries standing committee of the day held extensive hearings surrounding the department's implementation of the Marshall decision. During those hearings and discussions, I was interviewed by Mr. Wayne Easter, who was then chair of the fisheries standing committee. The standing committee was seeking first-hand knowledge of the fisheries management and the enforcement concerns and problems we were experiencing in the field in southwest Nova Scotia. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409120">We identified several key enforcement issues that were having a deleterious effect on our fishery officers' ability to deal effectively and proactively with the increased non-compliance that was occurring during the closed lobster fishing season. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409121">We also offered several essential recommendations to enhance conservation through proper management and enforcement in this fishery. They included that effective enforcement was critical to conservation. DFO must rigorously enforce fisheries' regulations with impartiality. DFO must have a sufficient number of enforcement officers, and those officers must be provided with the budgets and equipment to do the job safely and effectively. DFO must enforce one set of rules and regulations for everyone, and it must have the resources and personnel to do the job.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409122"> Commercial fisheries for both indigenous and non-indigenous fishers must be conducted under one set of rules and regulations, including seasons. The lobster fishery in particular must be managed in such a way as to ensure that it is being conducted as a genuine food fishery and not an illegal commercial fishery. There must be an examination of the question of whether the lobster food fishery should be conducted during the same season as the regular commercial fishery. </ParaText>
              <Timestamp Hr="15" Mn="50">(1550)</Timestamp>
              <ParaText id="6409123">We felt very strongly in 1999 that we had made the appropriate recommendations to the then fisheries standing committee. I feel even more staunchly about them now in 2020. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409124">I would further recommend that the standing committee consult with and listen to their fishery officers to confirm that any recommendations from 1999 or now are still appropriate and comprehensive.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409125"> I am a firm believer in the statement that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. In my view there is no need to try to reinvent the wheel. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409126">I would be pleased to address any questions that you may have.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036242">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409127">Thank you, Mr. Clarke.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409128">Mr. Williams, go ahead for five minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="11036255">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="245796" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams (Research Director, Canadian Council of Professional Fish Harvesters)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409129">My thanks to the committee and to Jaime Battiste for the opportunity to talk with you today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409130">I appear in my capacity as research director for the Canadian Council of Professional Fish Harvesters, the national human resources sector council for the fish-harvesting industry in Canada. Our members include harvester organizations across Canada with indigenous representation on both coasts.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409131">I will begin by sharing three of the most significant findings from our recently completed national study of labour supply trends in the Canadian harvesting industry.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409132">First, the fishing industry today is seeing sustainable growth with potential to drive social and economic development in rural coastal communities and first nations. With improving stock management and conservation, the supply of wild-caught seafood is increasingly limited, while global demand is growing almost exponentially. In this situation, seafood product values have nowhere to go but up over the foreseeable future.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409133">Second, the most serious barrier to continuing industry growth may be labour supply. A third of the current workforce will age out of the industry by 2025, and with shrinking rural populations, we currently have too few new entrants to replace them. As we have already seen in fish processing, critical labour shortages may soon be common on the harvesting side.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409134">Third, indigenous employment in the fishery grew from 1,400 individuals in 2001 to 3,400 in 2016, an increase of 142%. Indigenous harvesters made up 13% of the total fishing labour force in Nova Scotia in 2016, and 18% in New Brunswick. Those figures will have increased since then.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409135">Taking all these factors into account, it’s clear that there are real opportunities for first nations to achieve greater economic and social development through expanded engagement in fisheries.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409136">How best to pursue this opportunity? One path is to continue the incremental growth of the past two decades and find ways to accelerate it through new collaborations with government and other industry stakeholders, or first nations may undertake to create new and distinct fisheries with perhaps multiple management systems and licensing regimes, or some combination of the two. Whatever pathways, there will be impact on non-native harvesters and their communities. I will share with you what I understand to be the predominant views taking shape among the harvester leaders I work with across the Atlantic and Quebec.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409137">These leaders understand and acknowledge that 300 years of systemic racism unjustly separated indigenous peoples from their traditional territories and fisheries, and that racism is evident today in recent violent action. They recognize the constitutional rights and the simple human rights of indigenous peoples to have full and fair access to fisheries for food, social and ceremonial purposes; to earn rewarding livelihoods; and to build self-reliant communities. They recognize and accept that the moderate livelihood right set out by the Marshall decision is to be negotiated between the Crown and first nations on a government-to-government basis, and that they are not party to these negotiations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409138">Finally, they share with indigenous leaders and harvesters a commitment to conserving fish stocks and habitat and to conducting fisheries on a sustainable basis to ensure employment, incomes, and social and cultural well-being for future generations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409139">In my view, these points of emerging consensus provide a constructive basis for dialogue and future collaboration with first nations fisheries leaders and government agencies on moving forward with the development of indigenous fisheries. If and when that begins, harvester leaders in the commercial fishery will bring forward certain concerns, as you've heard, about process and implementation steps.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409140">First, it is in no one’s interest that there be conflict in communities and on the water, with international media attention focused on violent incidents. Harvester leaders deal every day with pressures from their grassroots members who are reacting anxiously to rumours and aggressive posturing by non-indigenous and indigenous actors, particularly on social media. There is a critical need for calmer voices to be heard and for leaders in government, first nations and commercial fisheries organizations to provide clearer information on policy objectives, pathways and timetables.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409141"> Second, after a two-decade struggle to get the fleet separation and owner-operator policies enshrined in legislation and regulations, commercial harvesters hope to see first nations fisheries develop in ways that help retain fair shares of the wealth of the fishery in the hands of working harvesters and their communities, both indigenous and non-indigenous.</ParaText>
              <Timestamp Hr="15" Mn="55">(1555)</Timestamp>
              <ParaText id="6409142"> Third, non-native fish harvesters need to have a voice and a role in the process. It will help a great deal to relieve current pressures if government establishes a formal consultation table linked to and informing government-to-government negotiations with first nations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409143">As you've heard, the issue of seasons is critical and will have to be dealt with as well. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409144">Today, first nations communities are pushing for their rightful place in the fishery. It may take longer than some might hope, but I believe conditions are taking shape to achieve this. It is an inescapable reality that success will require indigenous and non-indigenous harvesters to work together to steward common resources, manage adjacent fisheries and meet the demands of the same markets.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409145">As a practical step in this direction—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036344">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409146">Thank you, Mr. Williams. We've gone over time and I have to get to the questioning.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409147">Before I get to the questioning round, I just want to let the members know that we'll have to carve off the last half hour for future committee business, namely the next meeting and beyond. I'm going to have to be very strict on the time allocated for questions and when it ends, because I don't want to punish anybody on the sheet by not getting to them.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409148">We'll start off with Mr. Bragdon, for six minutes or less.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409149">As well, to the questioners, please, if you can, identify who you would like to answer the question instead of leaving it just hanging out there for someone to volunteer to answer. It makes it much easier and goes much more quickly. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409150">Mr. Bragdon.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036355">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269303" Type="40">Mr. Richard Bragdon (Tobique—Mactaquac, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409151">Thank you, Mr. Chair; and thank you to each to the witnesses for joining us tonight and giving us some very valuable insights through your testimony.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409152"> Mr. Clarke, I'll start with you. Congratulations on many years of service in DFO, over 30 years, through various administrations. That's a lot of experience you bring to the table, and perspective.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409153">I notice you recently were quoted in The Guardian stating that the minister mishandled the situation. Can you expand on how you think the minister has mishandled it and what you think should be done differently, or should have been done differently?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036363">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409154">I was very concerned by the September 17 comments by the minister in which she indicated that unauthorized fishing during the closed season would not be allowed during negotiations. Either she or perhaps the PMO decided that they were going to change that strategy, but that started the chain of events of creating uncertainty, fear and confusion that, in my view, led to the civil unrest that took place.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409155">In no way do I condone civil unrest. I spent 35 years trying to ensure that civil unrest did not take place in the fisheries, and I certainly wouldn't condone it now, but I can understand the frustration and the terrible communication, as I would call it. I wouldn't call it bad communication; I would have to call it no communication. The minister and her department, and the Prime Minister's Office, for that matter, have had terrible public relations and communications around this issue since September 17, and in my opinion, that has created and contributed to the confusion and the frustration that spills over sometimes in civil unrest. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409156">I was involved in civil unrest when we had 200 or 300 lobster vessels blockade the Yarmouth ferry at the Yarmouth wharf. I've had office occupations; I've had protests and demonstrations. I've seen the riot team, the RCMP riot squad, marching down Main Street in Yarmouth, beating on their shields trying to clear protesters. Therefore, I know what civil unrest can do and I'm afraid that the minister contributed with her poor communication, helping to create that civil unrest. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="00">(1600)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036397">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269303" Type="40">Mr. Richard Bragdon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409157">Thank you, Mr. Clarke. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409158">I have just one more question for you, and I'm going to put it to Mr. Berry and Mr. Williams as well.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409159">There has been a lot of talk and we've heard a lot throughout this committee and throughout the time this committee has been going on in regard to the establishment of potentially two separate fishing authorities. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409160">Mr. Clarke, I want to get your perspective from an enforcement standpoint, and then I'll go to Mr. Berry and Mr. Williams. What are your thoughts as to how two separate fishing authorities would work or not?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036411">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409161"> I don't think they have a chance of being successful. As the Supreme Court pointed out, I think the onus is not on indigenous or non-indigenous fishermen to decide how the fishery is going to be managed. It's up to the Crown and the government to decide. There has to be one authority with one set of rules and regulations for all. I think that was clear in their decision, and it was also clear in the first standing committee recommendations, the 28 recommendations that were produced.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036420">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269303" Type="40">Mr. Richard Bragdon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409162">Thank you, Mr. Clarke.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409163">Mr. Berry.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036422">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409164">If I could I would like to expand on Mr. Clarke's earlier point about the things that happened this summer and the reason they got out of hand.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409165">It wasn't simply that DFO stopped doing its due diligence this summer. Over years, if not decades, it has just slowly and surely pulled back and almost simply abdicated its role and responsibilities of enforcing the rules that are on the books. This is something that has been building, not just since this summer. This has been a long time coming.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409166">The other thing is that the minister is the only one who can issue licences and the one who has to maintain order. Seasons are there for a reason. I hate to use that, but they are for conservation and stuff like that. The minister, and only the minister, has the full authority to issue licences.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036437">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269303" Type="40">Mr. Richard Bragdon</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409167">Thank you, Mr. Berry.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409168">Mr. Williams.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036438">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409169">I guess my approach to this is focused on the fact that in the medium to long term, we are not going to be able to use fisheries officers and have rules enforced by officials on the water as a way to solve these problems. The key in the medium to long term is going to be to get agreements among people who are working together on the water and to have dialogue and collaboration take place at the community level. That's where I think the minister needs to lead this overall exercise in the immediate future.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036456">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409170">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409171">Mr. Morrissey, go ahead for six minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036459">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409172">Thank you, Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409173">I want to go to Mr. Berry.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409174"> You indicated that DFO for some years now has abdicated its role in enforcing regulations in the fishery.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409175">Could you briefly elaborate on the timeline and on how we have arrived at this point?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="05">(1605)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036464">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409176">This actually really started to happen right after Marshall when especially the out-of-season FSC fishery was being developed, even though the FSC fishery pertained to Sparrow.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409177">In the early 2000s, as today, every year licences had to be negotiated between DFO and first nations to see how much product was going to be removed in a particular summer for food, social and ceremonial. Over time, DFO either negotiated away....</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409178">At first, early in the 2000s, they were doing some checks and balances, and they had a handle on what was being removed, but over time slowly their input into what was happening, and their control of what was happening out of season were slipping through their fingers. Whether this was through negotiation...they were ceding more responsibility to other folks, and it wasn't working, and it just kept building and building. Actually, I think DFO simply lost control, and that's why we're here today.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036479">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409179">Mr. Berry, there was a period of time when the department's enforcement capability was significantly reduced by the government of the day. Did that have an impact?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036484">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409180">It could have, but still you have to make do with what you have. Yes, there were probably more officers in the field 20 years ago than there are today, but you have to adjust. You can't just give up your responsibility for what you're supposed to be doing in terms of enforcement.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036487">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409181"> If you have fewer people to do the enforcement, how do you do it? It's difficult to operate a competitive fishery like this under a goodwill principle.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409182"> An issue that is at the periphery of this issue—it was discussed generally in some early meetings—is what I would call not only the out-of-season, but the unrecorded, undocumented and unregistered cash-for-product sales in the industry, which have been growing. It's been alluded to by a number of witnesses who appeared before this committee. We're told off the record, and sometimes on the record, that a big part of what is driving some of the unrest here is the lucrativeness of this industry as it relates to cash sales. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409183">I'll ask all three to comment.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036507">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409184">You're absolutely right. The reason this activity has grown is that it is so lucrative. There are a lot of concerns there. It's not just the cash deals, which are in the millions and millions of dollars—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036511">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409185">You recognize and acknowledge that this is happening?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036512">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409186">Out of season, absolutely.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409187">The other thing is that enough lobsters are being landed that aren't being accounted for that it could have a detrimental effect on how biologists and scientists look at how they put their numbers together when they assess the stock, for example.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036518">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409188">Would that have a negative impact on our marine sustainability certification, MSC, that we depend on for sales in our European and U.S. markets? Our markets depend a lot on being able to document and have validity in those numbers. If those are not being recorded accurately, it could have a negative impact on our key marketplaces. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409189">Would you agree?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036528">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409190">Absolutely, it could. It could lead to conditions on our MSC for a five-year period. We don't have it yet, but it could lead to that.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036531">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409191">Mr. Williams, you represent a large, credible group. Would you care to give your opinion on my questions?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036536">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409192">The point I would emphasize there is that there are problems. Members of our organization frequently report issues around illegal lobster sales, etc., but it's not everywhere and it's not every first nation. There are a number of first nations that have worked—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036544">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409193">I was not just referring to first nations. I was referring to the industry globally.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="10">(1610)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036546">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409194">Where first nations harvesters are engaged in these illegal activities, it's often sponsored by or at the initiative of non-indigenous actors in the industry. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409195">On P.E.I., where you are, I don't think this kind of problem has reached any scale at all. There's a high level of collaboration.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036549">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409196">Mr. Clarke, I have about 30 seconds left. You've been in the business a long time. How would you answer to the issue of illegal activity?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036552">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409197">From my understanding, it has resulted in two things. One is that over the last few years, the number of food fish traps that are authorized had been increasing to what I'm hearing is a stage when the quantity of traps being issued are reaching commercial quantities. When you're catching commercial quantities, that increases the incentive to sell commercial quantities illegally. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409198">What happens is not so much the indigenous fishermen, but that the non-indigenous lobster poachers and the unscrupulous lobster buyers are conducting their illegal activities under the guise of a legitimate food fishery. The more people who get away with it.... </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409199">Non-compliance is broken down into three levels. There are some people who will never break the regulation, some people who will always break them, and the 60% in between who will go one way or the other, depending on what the deterrent is. If there's no deterrent and if people aren't getting caught and prosecuted, then those groups are going to go into non-compliance. That's what is taking place in southwest Nova Scotia—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036570">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409200"> Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409201">We'll now go to Madam Gill for six minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036575">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill (Manicouagan, BQ)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409202">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409203">I would like to thank the witnesses Mr. Berry, Mr. Williams and Mr. Clarke for agreeing to testify.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409204">First, I have a question for Mr. Clarke. I think it's worthwhile to get a fishery officer's point of view.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409205">Mr. Clarke, you have notably been an officer for 35 years. You mentioned earlier enforcement of regulations and lack of resources, equipment and budget. I know that is a lot. You seem to be suggesting that these factors are obviously having an impact on the current situation.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409206">If you had any recommendations and requests to make about this, what would they be?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036591">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409207">I'm not sure I understood your question. Could you repeat it, please?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036594">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409208">Yes, of course.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409209">Is the interpretation working?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409210">Mr. Chair, can we make sure Mr. Clarke is hearing the interpretation?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036600">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409211">Madam Gill, I have the time stopped for now.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409212">Mr. Clarke, you can select the language that you want to hear on the bottom of your screen on the computer. You have to have that set on English if you want to hear it in English even though Madame Gill will be speaking French. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409213">Please continue, Madame Gill.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036607">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409214">Okay.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409215">I will go faster.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409216">Mr. Clarke, it would be worthwhile to hear your point of view, because you have 35 years of experience as a fishery officer. Your testimony has shed new light on the situation.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409217">One of the things you mentioned was that the enforcement of regulations, and availability of resources, equipment and budget are problematic for fishery officers. That echoes what Mr. Berry also said a little earlier.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409218">To improve this type of situation, what recommendations would you make in terms of regulations, resources, equipment and the budget allocated to fishery officers?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="15">(1615)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036614">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409219">I'm having trouble with your translation because I can hear your French at the same time that I'm hearing the translation and they're talking over each other.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036618">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409220">Oh, no!</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409221">I won't get in trouble if I ask my question in English?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036620">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264113" Type="27">The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Nancy Vohl)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409222">If I can intervene....</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6409223">Mrs. Gill, is it possible that your—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036622">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409224">Mr. Chair, if I may, I can try to quickly translate my question. If I do, I will be breaking with the Bloc Québécois tradition, but I will do it anyway.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409225">I'd really like to hear Mr. Clarke's response.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6409226">I can try to ask my question in English if you're able to understand my accent.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036626">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409227">I can understand you fine in English.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036627">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409228">You have to have years of experience as an <I>agent des pêches</I>— I don't know how to say that in English. It was pretty interesting what you just spoke about a couple of minutes ago. You spoke about rules, resources, equipment and budgets and that you needed more resources for the job of <I>agent des pêches</I>. I wondered if you could just develop that. What would be needed by the DFO staff in order to achieve their goal well and to ensure that these kinds of situations...? I don't know how to say that.</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText id="6409229">In other words, how can we make sure that these kinds of situations don't escalate? How do you say that in English?</ParaText>
              <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
              <ParaText Continuation="True" id="6409230">It would help in resolving those kinds of situations.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036639">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409231"> Yes, I understand your question very well.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409232"> The difficulty I have is that I haven't been involved directly with DFO in enforcement for five or six years now, so I'm not sure of the present situation. I was involved in a process at the time called C and P renewal, which introduced another level of supervision into the fishery officer training and command.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409233"> It was working effectively, but I hear that because of budget cuts some of that has now been rolled back. I've heard of situations in the last couple of years where fishery officers have had to park their vehicles because they had no gas to put in their vehicles. I've heard that they have positions that are acting, with no incumbents in the position. I think it has to be looked at again in terms of what was done with C and P renewal to see how much of this has eroded.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409234">I worked very closely with this when former prime ministers Chrétien and Martin were involved, but I'm afraid, from what I'm hearing from the field staff, that since the Harper government, there have been cuts not only to science but to enforcement that are contributing to some of the problems we're seeing today.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036664">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409235">Thank you, Mr. Clarke.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409236">Mr. Berry and Mr. Williams, I would also like to hear what you have to say about the fishery officer's role and the needs being felt. We are obviously talking about the situation in Nova Scotia, but it could be the same anywhere in Quebec or in Canada.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036669">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409237">I think Mr. Morrissey brought up earlier that over the years DFO has its their budget cut drastically. At times, they have very little presence on the water. Their working platforms are old and antiquated...the boats. There needs to be a huge cash infusion, on the C and P side in DFO, because they do not have the tools to do the job that is asked of them. There's a lack of equipment and a lack of officers. There need to be some budgetary changes here, and certainly the DFO C and P needs to be [<I>Technical difficulty—Editor</I>]</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="20">(1620)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036683">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409238">Mr. Chair, I completely lost track of time.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409239">I don't know if I perhaps have a few seconds left?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036688">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409240">You have about half a minute if you want to try to get a quick question in.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036690">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409241">I heard Mr. Williams suggest reducing the number of guardians, as this might resolve the situations between individuals.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409242">Can he explain his thinking?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036696">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409243">C and P coverage fisheries officers are important, but they're not the solution to the problems we're dealing with today. We have to move forward on negotiations to resolve the questions around moderate livelihood and to establish a basis on which harvesters in first nations and non-first nations communities can start working together to develop a successful fishery. Yes, C and P is a part of this picture, but the real priority has to be on moving forward quickly and effectively with the negotiation of a new treaty on aboriginal fisheries. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036710">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409244">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409245">I do apologize for the mix-up in translation for our witness. I did allow for extra time to capture back what was being lost. I hope I was fair on that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409246">We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036711">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns (Courtenay—Alberni, NDP)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409247">Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for your really important testimony today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409248">Back in December 1999, this committee presented a report on the Marshall decision and its implications for the management of the Atlantic fisheries. The report found that DFO was caught off guard and didn't have a contingency plan, knowing that the Mi'kmaq fishers would be on the water and threatened by commercial fishers.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409249"> Here we are in 2020 and the Mi'kmaq fishers have been threatened and intimidated, traps have been cut and a building has been burned down. In the last 21 years, do you get the impression that DFO has developed a plan to keep the Mi'kmaq fishers safe when they're on the water, or do you feel that DFO has been caught off guard again?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409250">Maybe I'll start with you, Mr. Clarke, because you talked about DFO staff not even having gas in their tanks and about the cuts. Do you feel they're adequately resourced to protect those fishers from their boats being rammed and from the confrontation that's taking place on the water when they're exercising their treaty and constitutionally protected right?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036731">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409251"> I think there are two particular issues with the problem.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409252">First of all, I wouldn't even try to comment on present-day realities, but I've heard from some of my colleagues who are still with the department. That's why I recommended that the standing committee should listen to them, in the field, today, and not look for advice from a has-been who was there 20 years ago, talking about what problems I had.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409253">I've talked to the officers now and there's a lot of frustration within the field staff. I've talked to one recent supervisor, you probably have heard of him, Gary Hutchins from Meteghan, the area that included the complex in St. Marys Bay. He took early retirement because he and his staff were told through the chain of command to stand down their enforcement activities in St. Marys Bay after the minister made her announcement on September 17. I think it would be appropriate for this committee to talk to fishery officers in the field now, and I mean in the field. I don't mean the director general in Ottawa, or the regional director in Halifax. They're part of the problem, in my opinion.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409254">When I was in fisheries, the chain of command was very clear. You had to progress from a fishery officer to a supervisor to a detachment supervisor to an area chief to a regional director and then to the director general of C &amp; P.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036773">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409255">I really appreciate that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409256">Mr. Williams, I really appreciate that you talked about the economic benefits. The Sipekne’katik we know is the second-largest Mi'kmaq community in Nova Scotia and the community has been affected by centralization, oppression under the Indian Act, and the intergenerational effects of the residential schools. Basically, given these colonial oppressions that have kept their people from entering the middle-class society in Canada, do you support that they must determine themselves what a moderate livelihood is?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409257">And Mr. Williams, I do appreciate that you did speak clearly about the economic benefit and the growth in terms of indigenous participation in the fishery. Can you also speak about what that economic impact has been also on the communities where they live?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="25">(1625)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036787">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409258">The economic impact on the community has been, in a few cases, huge in terms of employment. There are bands like the Elsipogtog in New Brunswick where they have almost 80 fishing boats fishing in the crab and lobster fisheries and 300 people earning more than moderate livelihoods as active fishermen. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409259">There are other communities where, for one reason or another, those kinds of employment opportunities and engagement as harvesters on the water haven't taken place. I think Sipekne'katik is one instance but several other first nations in Nova Scotia have followed different paths in pursuing their objectives.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409260">I hesitate to pass judgment on the choices made by any particular first nation, but I think it is wise at this stage for people in your position and my position to stand back and wait for clear and constructive leadership to develop directions to emerge across the collectivity of first nations in Nova Scotia and in the Maritimes. I think—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036801">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409261">Do you believe that this committee shouldn't be undermining any discussions that the nation is having currently on a nation-to-nation basis with Canada?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036806">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409262">No, I think we should be accelerating and supporting moving forward as quickly as possible. I worry about the most militant voices in some instances calling the shots. I think wiser heads really need to prevail in this situation, without passing judgment on anyone.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036812">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409263">Mr. Berry, you talked about equality. Before Marshall, the Mi'kmaq weren't included in conversations about access to fisheries. Given that there was no equal access for generations, what does equality look like to you now that they're exercising their constitutionally and treaty-protected right?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036817">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409264">It's going to take a while. It has taken 21 years to this point to get first nations involved in the commercial fishery through the Marshall initiative and some other programs.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409265">Moving forward, I think the first nations will get more access, but there are a couple of nuances there. There can only be one regulator here. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409266">What you pointed out earlier about St. Marys Bay and the Shubenacadie band.... That fishery is not recognized. The DFO—the minister—did not issue those licences. This is not an authorized fishery as of yet. There have to be negotiations ongoing to determine what that type of fishery looks like.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409267">I can't see how you can have, in this case, two regulators. Other first nations want to regulate their own fishery also. That simply isn't going to work, because you have 35 first nations in Atlantic Canada. Everybody's going to want at some point to regulate their own fishery. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409268">That's not going to work. You must have one regulator and one set of regulations concerning conservation and stuff like that.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036840">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409269">Thank you. We have gone way over time.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409270">We'll now go to Mr. Williamson, for five minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036842">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="252488" Type="2">Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409271">Thank you, Mr. Chairman.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409272">I have a couple of questions. I think I'll start with Mr. Williams. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409273">You gave some of these figures on the growth of indigenous fisheries, and <Affiliation DbId="253373" Type="4">the minister</Affiliation> alluded to it as well by talking about how the landings have grown from the Marshall decision to today from about $3 million to $120 million. We see, then, increased activity, which obviously would bring about increased economic opportunity and some level of prosperity.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409274">You mentioned that there would be an impact upon the non-indigenous fishing community and fishing families from the changes that are being contemplated. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409275">Could you talk to us about what you think some of those impacts are going to be? I think you were suggesting they would not all be positive.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="30">(1630)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036859">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409276">Fisheries management today, within a conservation regime, is a zero-sum game. If new entrants come into the industry or new fishing effort is brought into the industry, then effort has to be taken out—and maybe people are going to have to be taken out—somewhere else.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409277">Much of the anxiety and the reaction we are seeing happening at the community level right now is because there is no clear direction on that; there's no clear policy or understanding of how this is going to be managed. If we're going to maintain conservation and bring a whole new set of actors into the industry, what is the process for it to take place?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409278">In 1999, in the initial Marshall process, the process was that licences were purchased from retiring harvesters and transferred into first nations communities. People thus understood, as things settled out, how it was going to happen and that the net effect was going to be neutral or beneficial. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409279">In the current environment there is no clear direction or understanding. There's a great deal of rumour and concern about an aggressively expanding new fishery, and no understanding at all about how it's going to take place without severe impacts upon people who are caught in the backlash from it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409280">That's the lack of current policy and direction that I think needs to be addressed as a priority.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036874">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="252488" Type="2">Mr. John Williamson</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409281">I think you're potentially right about that. I tried to get some answers from <Affiliation DbId="253373" Type="4">the minister</Affiliation> last night on managing the change DFO is considering.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409282">Do you have any recommendations on how it should happen? When you use terms such as that people are going to have to be “taken out”, they suggest...it's pretty dark. You can understand why people are concerned about these decisions, when they're getting so little information from <Affiliation DbId="253373" Type="4">the minister</Affiliation> and DFO.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036884">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409283"> What's missing is a coherent approach. We need to move forward on three different initiatives. One is moving forward with negotiations on moderate livelihood and a new treaty. The second one is creating a structure where non-native industry stakeholders are part of that process and have a way to be at a certain table. They're not part of the nation-to-nation negotiation but they have to be feeding into it. The third thing is that we need to create structures where non-native and native harvesting leaders are working together to answer the kinds of questions you're raising: How would we work together in this new environment, and how would we manage the transition in this new environment?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409284"> It's not enough to just push forward on the negotiations. It's certainly not enough just to put more fisheries officers on the water. We need a comprehensive, clear, fast-track approach on all three levels.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036899">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="252488" Type="2">Mr. John Williamson</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409285">Do you think the Government of Canada, DFO, Crown-Indigenous Relations, one of these entities, should be involved in negotiating what a moderate livelihood means? Is that subject to negotiation, do you think?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036907">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409286">You have 20 seconds.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036910">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409287">It has to be negotiated. That's the great lack of clarity in the Marshall decision—what that means in practical terms. People in the commercial industry would greatly prefer to see first nations pursue moderate livelihoods through integrating into the commercial fishery rather than creating a separate, siloed, self-managed fishery. That's what has to be resolved.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036921">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409288">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409289">We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036924">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264242" Type="47">Mr. Serge Cormier (Acadie—Bathurst, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409290">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409291">I will start with you, Mr. Williams. If I'm not mistaken, you wrote a book called <I>A Future for the Fishery: Crisis and Renewal in Canada’s Neglected Fishing Industry</I>. Is that right?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036927">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409292">That's correct. Thank you for the plug.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="35">(1635)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036935">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264242" Type="47">Mr. Serge Cormier</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409293">Good.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409294">How do you see the future of the fisheries in, say, Atlantic Canada but also in Canada? In terms of what's going on right now and also what's happened in the past couple of decades, how can we make sure that the fishery we have in Canada is not only sustainable but is there for the younger generation, the first nations and everybody who lives in this country?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036942">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409295">This fishing industry today is booming. There's every reason to believe that we can sustain that dramatic growth into the future. We are managing most of our commercial fish stocks now on a sustainable basis. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409296">As I mentioned in my introduction, the biggest challenge in many ways is going to be finding the people to keep this industry going in its current structure. You just passed a new Fisheries Act that clearly identifies a policy objective to retain ownership and control of access rights within communities and within the harvesting sector. The really interesting question for me now is this: To the extent that the expansion and development of indigenous fisheries will help meet some of our human resources needs, people in our fishing communities, how do we ensure that it all happens within a framework of a community-based, independent, owner-operated driven fishery?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036970">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264242" Type="47">Mr. Serge Cormier</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409297">You're talking about managing the resources and managing the fishery. We've talked a lot about the conservation aspect of this whole situation that we are in. Commercial fishermen and first nations communities are talking about the importance of conservation. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409298">If we talk about lobster, we all know that for lobster there is no dockside monitoring where we have an approximation of what the resource looks like. What are your thoughts on having dockside monitoring in the lobster fishery?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036980">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270377" Type="28">Mr. Richard Williams</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409299">I think we are moving gradually; we're slowed down now by the pandemic, but I think we are moving toward full monitoring and coverage in the lobster fishery. Electronic monitoring on small vessels may be a big part of that solution, rather than observers. Dockside monitoring is clearly going to be part of it. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409300">That's part of the infrastructure that will make it easier to integrate first nations into the community. I agree with Bernie on the need to have an integrated system where everything is coming through the same monitoring process.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036994">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264242" Type="47">Mr. Serge Cormier</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409301">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409302">Mr. Berry, what are your thoughts on the managing aspect of the resource in terms of maybe having a bit of control over the resource? You know, with lobster dockside monitoring, maybe we'd get a better price for it. Maybe we'd get a better demand for lobster if we controlled the amount of lobster in the market. As we all know, lobster is flooding the market right now. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11036999">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409303"> I think that, at this point, we do not need dockside monitoring. We have enough things in place, like logbooks and checks and balances. Even from a provincial standpoint, there are some checks and balances there with buyers and how much product they're buying.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409304">We have a good idea of how many lobsters are coming ashore. Yes, there are a lot of lobsters, but we have facilities now that can hold hundreds of thousands of pounds of lobsters and basically play to the market as the market needs them. It's not like we're landing all our lobsters today and have to get rid of them today. These facilities allow us to hold lobsters for four, five, six months. That also helps us get a better price because we're not flooding the market at any one point.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409305">I think, at least at this point, a dockside monitoring program is simply not needed in the lobster fishery.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037010">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264242" Type="47">Mr. Serge Cormier</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409306">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037016">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409307">We'll now go to Madam Gill for two and a half minutes, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037018">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409308">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409309">My question is for Mr. Williams, Mr. Berry or Mr. Clarke.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409310">I will continue in the same vein. I know that where I come from, on the North Shore, the indigenous communities would like to have indigenous fishery officers.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409311">Do you believe that could also be part of the solution, even if many factors are involved?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="40">(1640)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037026">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409312">Madam Gill, having aboriginal fisheries officers is a good idea. The key is that they're enforcing the same, one regulatory regime. Again, I know it sounds redundant, but you can only have one regulatory regime.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409313">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037035">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409314">I have asked my question to several individuals and the others are not answering, and because I need the interpretation, it takes me longer. I apologize.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409315">I have one more question to ask. That being said, no, I don't feel that Mr. Berry was repeating himself.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409316">With respect to decentralization, Mr. Clarke was just saying that he wanted to see people on the ground.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409317">Do you feel that Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Canadian Coast Guard operations are too centralized and that the communities would benefit from decentralization?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037054">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409318">I think it's long overdue that the Department of Fisheries has direct-line reporting similar to the RCMP. I don't believe that you should be hiring directors general—supervising conservation, protection and enforcement in Ottawa—or regional directors in Halifax who have never been trained as fisheries officers, who have never done fisheries officer duties, who are bureaucrats who don't know the people they're directing and how they're trained, or how they should function in potentially very dangerous situations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409319">I think there should be direct-line reporting from the area, perhaps to the regional director, but direct-line reporting similar to what the commissioner is in the RCMP. I've made this argument many times. How would we react as citizens if the commissioner of the RCMP had never been trained as a recruit at RCMP depot, had never progressed up the chain of command, and all of a sudden was put in charge of the whole organization? Would we expect any police force in any major city to have a police chief who was a bureaucrat and who was never trained as a police officer supervising a city police department?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037079">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409320">Thank you.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409321">We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037082">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409322">I want to thank the witnesses again for their important testimony today.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409323">Several non-indigenous fishers' associations have appeared at this committee and talked about tensions, the lack of communication, and the desire for everyone to be on the same page when it comes to operations.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409324">Mr. Berry, maybe you can speak about the outreach effort work that your association has done in order to bridge that communications gap between your fishers and indigenous fishers, and also maybe about education, about the understanding of the treaty and the constitutionally protected rights of those communities.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037098">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409325"> I may have the time frame a little bit wrong, but we were engaged in dialogue with first nations from the local area of southwest Nova about two years ago for about a year trying to talk this through. It was very slow going. We didn't come out of it with any agreements or anything like this, but we were talking.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409326"> That table kind of elevated to other first nations in Nova Scotia. For example, Chief Terry Paul was there, and we were having conversations with them and KMKNO for maybe six to eight months. Again, it was very slow moving. Then we're not sure what happened. It just seemed to fall off the rails, and we haven't gotten back together. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037106">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409327">Do you feel it's the role of the federal government to shape and foster that community building that's required to build the trust between the indigenous and non-indigenous fishers?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037111">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409328">I think it could help. At some point, indigenous and non-indigenous people have to reach out to one another also. Certainly, DFO has a part to play. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409329">At some point, we have to get to a point where we can all talk about how we move forward with this and be at the same table. I'm not talking about a rights table, but when it comes to things about the fishery—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="45">(1645)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037119">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409330">The communication.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037121">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409331">Yes, the communication. We simply have to be there to put our views forward and have them fully vetted. Will there be disagreement? Absolutely. You can't ignore the fishing industry or any other industry when it comes to these kinds of talks when you're changing the landscape on what...or how a fishery or an industry is looked upon.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037125">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409332">Thank you, Mr. Johns.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409333">Two and a half minutes passes by quickly when you're having fun.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409334">We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037127">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264400" Type="47">Mr. Mel Arnold (North Okanagan—Shuswap, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409335">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409336">Mr. Clarke, how does the enforcement branch determine what level of enforcement to apply to a situation over the years? Was the direction ever received from higher-ups or from the minister's office?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037137">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409337">I can only speak to my own situation prior to my retirement. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409338">At the time we completed something that was called the integrated fisheries management plan that included conservation, protection and enforcement as part of the model. It was run primarily by the areas. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409339">Just to give you some of my own experience, I had disagreements in the past from some of my masters at regional headquarters who had a different idea of how enforcement should have been conducted. At one time I said to them, “If you don't agree with what we're doing, please put it in writing. I want your direction in writing. Unless I get it in writing, I'm going to continue to do what I'm doing", but I never received it in writing.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409340">If I had received something that I disagreed with or thought was illegal or immoral, I would have resigned, and I would have made it widely known why I was resigning.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037152">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264400" Type="47">Mr. Mel Arnold</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409341">You referred to a recent resignation. I believe it was a Mr. Hutchins, because they were basically told to stand down on the enforcement after the minister made her announcement.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409342">Can you elaborate further on that?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037159">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="270380" Type="28">Mr. Alan Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409343">That's my understanding.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409344"> I wouldn't call it a resignation. I would call it an opting for early retirement, because he was frustrated with the decisions that were being made for him to stand down his unit in St. Marys Bay.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037163">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264400" Type="47">Mr. Mel Arnold</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409345">Pardon me. I didn't mean to use the term resign; I meant to use the term retired. Thank you for clarifying that.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409346">Mr. Berry, we repeatedly asked the minister if she was open to the idea of having two separate fisheries, and yet she seems to deny that this is a possibility. She also says that she can't speak about what is being negotiated. It leads us to wonder if that is what's being negotiated.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409347">Can you outline to the committee whether this is something commercial fishers have asked for or if they think it would be helpful?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037179">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409348">Mr. Arnold, you're talking about having the one regulatory regime. I know we've had numerous talks with the minister even over the last three months. We've had maybe five or six calls, and at every call that is one of the linchpins that is always talked about, one regulatory system. There only can be one regulator, meaning DFO, and the minister has certainly the power and the wherewithal to issue licences and do whatever else. Two regulatory regimes or three is simply a non-starter for the industry. It has to be one regulator, period.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037193">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264400" Type="47">Mr. Mel Arnold</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409349">You indicated earlier that you didn't feel that dockside monitoring was necessary. Can you elaborate on how the catch is accounted for, basically, at either the vessel level or the purchasing or selling level within both the indigenous and non-indigenous fisheries?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="50">(1650)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037198">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409350">Well, at least in the commercial season it's the same. Every commercial fisherman, whether it's a communal commercial licence or a commercial licence, has to fill out a daily logbook. Logbooks have to be turned in once a month and the data is entered and so on and so forth. As I pointed out, on the provincial side, it also requires a certain percentage of lobster buyers to give them...how much product they have bought, where, when and stuff like that. It's not 100% coverage, but they do have to enter some stuff.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037205">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264400" Type="47">Mr. Mel Arnold</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409351">Do both indigenous and non-indigenous report the same way?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037206">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409352">In the commercial season, yes.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037207">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264400" Type="47">Mr. Mel Arnold</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409353">And in the non-commercial season?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037210">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409354">This I don't know. Again, we don't agree with this. There is no accountability here. Certainly I don't think DFO is involved in the monitoring of the catch rates. This creates, as I pointed out earlier, a big problem. There's no accountability for what's coming out of the water.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037214">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409355">Thank you, Mr. Arnold.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409356">We'll now go to Mr. Battiste for five minutes or less, please.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037216">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste (Sydney—Victoria, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409357"> I would like to start off my questions with Mr. Berry.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409358">I'm wondering how many different lobster associations and unions there are in Nova Scotia.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037220">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409359"> I'm not sure. There are numerous organizations and, again, if I give you a guess, it's just approximate. I simply don't know—15, 20 possibly. Some are multispecies associations and some are just lobster associations. I simply don't know the number.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037229">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409360">What is the mandate of the associations for lobsters and fisheries?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037232">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409361">Really, it's just to be accountable to members, try to provide the members with information and maybe bring forth some ideas, try to engage in science, dependent on the availability of money and such, especially on the science side.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037241">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409362">How many Mi'kmaq members are there in these associations?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037246">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409363">I'm not sure. I know our association—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037249">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409364">Would there be many?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037252">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409365">Well, our association has, I think, seven or eight from the Native Council of Nova Scotia.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037258">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409366"> You talked about the good relationship that was determined between Acadia and places like Bear River. I'm wondering what they are doing well in terms of communicating with fisheries associations that Shubenacadie isn't doing well. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037260">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409367">I'm not sure if it's communication. I just think it's the level of activity that's taken place. Certainly, what's happened up at St. Marys Bay particularly with Shubenacadie is a large amount of product in pots in the water, a large amount of product being taken out. The other two first nations you speak of are certainly fishing out of season, but the level of removal is nowhere near what Shubenacadie is taking. That still doesn't make it right. In our view, unless you have a licence from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans there should be no removal out of season.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037274">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409368"> You said there are several associations and several different unions that are talking about the fisheries, but you say there can be only one regulatory regime. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409369">Can you give me your opinion on why there can be only one regulatory regime? Is this a legal thing, or is this an economic thing? Tell me about this.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037284">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409370">I think it's just for the continuity of the fishery. I'll just look at southwest Nova. You have seasons, you have pot limits and you have certain conservation tools being used, whether they be escape hatches or size limits, and so on and so forth.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409371">It's all being run by DFO. The continuity is there.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="16" Mn="55">(1655)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037297">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409372">It's what you're used to. Is that correct?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037301">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409373">Yes, it's what we're used to because it's been in place. I believe you just cannot have two, three or four—or even just two—different regulatory regimes.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409374">This is a tried and true regulatory regime. Sometimes we disagree with it, too, but this has been developed over 50, 60, 70 and 80 years.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409375"> Is it perfect? Probably not. Everybody's still trying to improve on it, but I don't think you improve on it by all of a sudden starting another regulatory regime.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037311">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409376">Even if it were transparent and all the regimes were transparent, do you think that would still be unacceptable to fishermen?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037315">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409377">I think so. My opinion is that it would be unacceptable. There's one law, if I can put it—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037318">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264240" Type="47">Mr. Jaime Battiste</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409378">There are three laws in Canada. There are indigenous laws, the French civil law and the English common law. There's a wide variety of legal pluralism in Canada. I'm wondering why that can't exist within the fisheries.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037321">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="240213" Type="28">Mr. Bernie Berry</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409379">Mr. Battiste, I'm not a lawyer like you. Still, the one regulatory regime in this industry works best. I think it would just add to confusion and stuff like this.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409380">I don't know why you'd actually want another regulatory regime to be developed, unless you're going to make massive changes. What is wrong with the existing regulatory regime?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037326">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409381">Thank you, Mr. Battiste. Your time has expired.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409382">That brings us pretty well to the close of the public session with witnesses before we do a little bit of committee business to clew up.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037329">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409383">Mr. Chair, do we not have enough time for another quick round?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037340">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409384">No, Mr. Johns, we don't. I have to get this information done and looked after during this committee meeting. We are not permitted to go overtime today because of the other committees.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409385">I will say thank you to our witnesses for enlightening us with their knowledge here this evening.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409386"> We'll let them leave the meeting now while we go into committee business. I won't be suspending.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409387">I have just a couple of things for the upcoming meetings that we need discuss. First off, I will say that, as everybody knows, Monday, November 30 is our normal committee meeting, but it falls into the timeline that's up against the fall economic statement by the <Affiliation DbId="263831" Type="4">finance minister</Affiliation>.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409388"> Some members have mentioned to me that they would like to be able to attend it, be a part of it or watch it. If we do that, it's right in our committee time. We have to decide to either go ahead with the committee on Monday, November 30 or to just cancel that meeting. I'm open to suggestions. I'll go with whatever the majority suggests we should do. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409389">Are there any comments?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409390">Mr. Williamson.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037378">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="252488" Type="2">Mr. John Williamson</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409391">I think we should proceed with the meeting, certainly in light of the concerns from our last meeting where many committee members were urging the committee to move on to its next study. I would like to have some more time on the current one. If time is of the essence, let's take advantage of every second of it.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409392">I think this is an economic update. It's not a budget, which normally has everyone in the House. If people feel strongly about it, they could always sub out and go to the other event instead, should they choose to.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409393">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037387">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409394">Does anybody else want to speak to it?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037391">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409395">I agree with Mr. Williamson. If somebody wanted to follow the economic statement, they could sub out. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409396">We want to wrap this up. We've been hearing very good testimony from witnesses, and we do have to move on to the salmon one.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="00">(1700)</Timestamp>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037397">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409397">Mr. Johns, you had your hand up.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037402">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409398">Yes. Is there any chance we can schedule the FOPO meeting a little bit later and that way we could have a chance to hear the opening at least? It's at four o'clock. It's just that a lot of us are carrying many critical files, so it's important to be present, or at least understand—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037407">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409399">Okay. I'll ask Nancy what the schedule looks like on Monday, Mr. Johns. She will probably be able to give us some information on that.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037410">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264113" Type="27">The Clerk</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409400">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409401">I am looking at the calendar and, if I'm not mistaken, after Monday's meetings, two committees are meeting after us. The Special Committee on Canada-China Relations and another one. Normally, when votes are held, the committee has the right to extend its meeting a little bit and the others start theirs shortly after that. However, for something other than votes, I believe the agreement is to vacate the room for other committees.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409402">I will look into it.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037421">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264473" Type="47">Mr. Gord Johns</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409403">We're okay. We're with everyone then. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037427">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409404">Okay, so hearing nothing else, we'll say that the committee will go ahead on Monday as per normal. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409405">
                <B>Some hon. members:</B> Agreed.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409406">
                <B>The Chair:</B> Good.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037431">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264400" Type="47">Mr. Mel Arnold</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409407">I saw Ms. Gill had her hand up in the participant line. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037433">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409408">Yes, I had raised my hand.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037436">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409409">Mrs. Gill, you have the floor.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037438">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409410">Yes, I did want to speak, but since I agreed with the solution, I lowered my hand.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409411">Mr. Chair, I'd like to know if I can always raise my hand on the side. If not, I will raise it on-screen if I want to be heard.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037440">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409412">Either works for me. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037444">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409413">Perfect.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037448">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409414">It's just that I didn't have the participants up at that particular time, but I do now.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037451">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409415">Thank you.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037455">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409416">In the restarting of the Pacific salmon, we need to establish how many more meetings we need to have with witnesses. Of course as I mentioned two days ago, the House calendar ends on December 11 with regard to our committee. That leaves us Monday's meeting, which is November 30. We then have Wednesday, December 2; Monday, December 7 and Wednesday, December 9. We actually have four meetings.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409417">We need to know if we want one more full meeting to finish up the witnesses on the moderate livelihood. We put one more meeting towards that, so we'll do that on Monday, November 30 if we can get witnesses to agree to come.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409418">Then we have three meetings left. Are we going to do our drafting instructions for the moderate livelihood study, or will we just go into salmon for the last three meetings?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409419">Seeing no comment, I guess we'll leave it up to the chair to decide and notify you accordingly as to what we'll do. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409420">
                <B>Some hon. members:</B> Agreed.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409421">
                <B>The Chair:</B> I see people actually nodding to that, and thumbs up. Okay. I'm in charge. That's wonderful. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409422">I'll discuss that with the clerk.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409423">As well, if we're going to start the Pacific salmon study, we need to set a deadline for witnesses for that particular study. I believe Nancy has issued an outline of witnesses and whatnot for the Pacific salmon Big Bar study. Does everybody have their copy of that?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409424">We have to know when to start. If we wait until Monday, December 7, that means that on Wednesday, December 2 we could deal with clearing up the drafting instructions.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409425">No? Okay. Then we will start that on the Monday.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409426">All right. We'll start with witnesses for Wednesday, December 2, so we need a very quick deadline in order to get those witnesses presented to the clerk. What if I say 5:00 p.m. Eastern time on Friday this week, November 27? Is everybody okay with finishing up with the witnesses for the Pacific salmon on Friday, November 27?</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409427">
                <B>Some hon. members:</B> Agreed.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409428">
                <B>The Chair:</B> Other than that, is there any other business anybody wants to raise? I didn't think this was going to go as quickly and as smoothly.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409429">Madam Gill. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Timestamp Hr="17" Mn="05">(1705)</Timestamp>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037492">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409430">Mr. Chair, forgive me, sometimes I have trouble keeping up due to the time lag. Were you hearing all the motions? If we have reached the one about seals, great.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409431">I'm ready to present it. Did you want me to do it now?</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037502">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409432"> I would presume it's in both official languages.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037508">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409433">Yes, it was sent to the Clerk in both official languages.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037523">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409434">Okay. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409435">On that, the last meeting we held, we discussed it, because Mr. Morrissey has a very similar motion. I don't know if the two of you have talked. I see both of you nodding your heads, so I guess—</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037528">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="264245" Type="47">Mr. Robert Morrissey</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409436">Mr. Chair, I agree with the motion that Madame Gill is about to move. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037530">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409437">Go ahead, Madame Gill.</ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037532">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269270" Type="40">Mrs. Marilène Gill</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409438">
                <Quote>
                  <QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">That the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans undertake a comprehensive study of seals that would examine the ecosystem impacts of seal overpopulation in the waters of Quebec, Eastern and Western Canada, international experience in seal stock management, the domestic and international market potential for various seal products, social acceptability, and the socio-cultural importance of developing the seal hunt for coastal and First Nations communities with access to the resource, and that the committee strongly consider travel to countries such as Scotland, Norway and Iceland, either virtually or physically, which acted to conserve fish stocks as a result of seal population.</QuotePara>
                </Quote>
              </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
          <FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage>
          <Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="11037536">
            <PersonSpeaking>
              <Affiliation DbId="269267" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking>
            <Content>
              <ParaText id="6409439">Thank you, Madame Gill. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409440">We've all heard the motion. Is there any discussion? Not seeing any, Nancy will call for the vote.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409441">(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409442">
                <B>The Chair</B>: Thank you, Nancy. It was passed unanimously. That's excellent.</ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409443">Again, Monday is the last meeting on moderate livelihood and hopefully we'll have time at the end of the meeting to do drafting instructions. The next three meetings, December 2, December 7 and December 9, we'll dedicate to Pacific salmon. Maybe on the Wednesday, December 9, we might also have an opportunity to do drafting instructions for that study to give the clerk something to do over the Christmas recess, I guess you'd call it. I'm sure that's just what they're looking forward to. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409444">Is there other new business? Hearing none, I call this meeting adjourned. </ParaText>
              <ParaText id="6409445">Thank you, everyone. </ParaText>
            </Content>
          </Intervention>
        </SubjectOfBusinessContent>
      </SubjectOfBusiness>
    </OrderOfBusiness>
  </HansardBody>
</Hansard>