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		<DocumentName>EVIDENCE</DocumentName>
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		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebate">Standing Committee on Public Accounts</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Number">NUMBER 037</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Session">3rd SESSION</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Parliament">40th PARLIAMENT</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Date">Thursday, December 2, 2010</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="DateOtherLang">Le jeudi 2 décembre 2010</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Institution">Standing Committee on Public Accounts</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Country">CANADA</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="RecordingNote">[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="HeaderTitle">EVIDENCE</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="HeaderDate">December 2, 2010</ExtractedItem>
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		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitle">Edited Evidence * Table of Contents * Number 037 (Official Version)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleEn">Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 037 (Official Version)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleFr">Témoignages * Table des matières * Numéro 037 (Version officielle)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaNumberNumber">37</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumDay">02</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumMonth">12</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumYear">2010</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaCreationTime">2010/12/02 11:00:00</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaInstitution">House of Commons</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateFr">Comité permanent des comptes publics</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateEn">Standing Committee on Public Accounts</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Acronyme">PACP</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerTitle">Chair</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerName">The Honourable Joseph Volpe</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="ParliamentNumber">40</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SessionNumber">3</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InCameraNote">PUBLIC PART ONLY - PARTIE PUBLIQUE SEULEMENT</ExtractedItem></ExtractedInformation>
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		<OrderOfBusiness><CatchLine></CatchLine><SubjectOfBusiness><SubjectOfBusinessContent><Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="05">(1105)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3615994"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp (Prince Edward—Hastings, CPC))</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226137"> Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226138">Today we will be dealing with, first of all, the notice of motion from Madame Faille. Then pursuant to that, we will go in camera to discuss draft reports.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226139">At this particular point we will go directly to the motion from Madame Faille.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226140">Madame Faille, I invite you to go ahead and to move your motion now, and speak to it if you wish.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616005"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille (Vaudreuil-Soulanges, BQ)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226141">I will read the motion, for the benefit of the committee members:</ParaText><ParaText id="2226142"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(<I>a</I>), with regard to Chapter 5 of the Auditor General's report, "Relocating Members of the Canadian Forces, RCMP, and Federal Public Service," the Committee calls on Public Works and Government Services Canada to produce: </QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2226143"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="3" IndentRest="3">1. the internal audit of 27 October 2004 prepared by Consulting and Audit Canada;</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2226144"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="3" IndentRest="3">2. the recommendations related to the internal audit;</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2226145"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="3" IndentRest="3">3. the action plan developed by PWGSC.</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2226146"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentRest="2" IndentFirst="2">And that these documents and files be provided in both official languages in the two sitting days following the adoption of this motion.</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2226147">Actually, I moved this motion as a result of something that happened during the normal course of trying to obtain documents from the Department of Public Works and Government Services. Usually, the department is very cooperative when it comes to giving us information about the various programs. What disturbed me, however, was the fact that the Library of Parliament had requested the report, as it does when members ask for documents, and was told by department officials that they could not find the document but would try to locate it. I knew perfectly well where the document was.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226148">On Friday, the report was found. The library should have been notified that the department had found the report and was sending it over, as per the normal procedure. What caught my attention was the fact that the report was not sent over immediately. I moved this motion so I could raise the issue with the committee.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226149">At the beginning of the sitting, I mentioned that I was in the process of reviewing the various documents and statements provided to the committee. And I noticed that when we study issues quickly, important documents that should factor into the decision-making process are often not submitted in time or are missing when members make decisions. This document is one example of that.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226150">Those of you who are not very familiar with the file should know that, in 2003, an investigation was launched further to a new call for tenders issued by PWGSC and that the internal audit in question should have been made public. The problem is that it was the only internal audit not posted online. So it became very difficult for anyone at this table studying the file to get a hold of the report. I asked for it nearly a year ago through an access to information request. I did not get it. I raised the issue on the order paper, but that did not work either. I went through the library, and this is what happened. Now that the library has the report, I would really like the committee members to receive and read it.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226151">The report was supposed to be a forensic review right before the Auditor General's report and after a conflict of interest inquiry. I would like the members of the committee to read the report to gain a better understanding of the circumstances surrounding this file. This document was missing when the committee members were studying the file. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226152">I asked to see the recommendations resulting from the internal audit, because normally when an internal audit is done, the department always responds in terms of what it plans to do. I do not have these documents. I have number 1, but not number 2 or number 3.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226153">When I spoke to Mr. Smith a week ago, I asked him if the analyst who was there before him had the documents and if he could tell us about the action plans put forward by PWGSC. Mr. Smith did not have the previous analyst's files, however. And that is why I moved this motion.</ParaText>
							<ParaText id="2226154">I think the members of this committee should look at the report and, at the very least, pay close attention to the action plan put forward by Public Works and Government Services Canada and the recommendations resulting from the internal audit. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616058"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226155"> Thank you. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226156">Just for clarity, Madame Faille, you are still requesting the three components: first, the internal audit; second, the recommendations; and third, the action plan. Is that correct?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616060"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226157">I also want to add that I checked with the Auditor General as to when she began her audit immediately afterwards, and the document was never provided to her.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616064"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226158">Okay, I would invite the other members of the committee to offer their comments.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226159">First we have Mr. Szabo, please.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616065"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="128094" Type="2">Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226160">Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to ask the member whether she in fact received a response to her access to information request, and if so, what did it say? </ParaText><ParaText id="2226161">Secondly, I would like to ask the same question with regard to the question on the order paper. Was there a response, and what did it say, if there were a response?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616067"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226162">We'll allow that. It does not pertain directly to this request, to the point of the motion now, but I think it's a fair question.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="3616068" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226163">Yes, it's a fair question.</ParaText>
							<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><ParaText id="2226164">When I made the access to information request, I was told that the report could not be found. When I put the question on the order paper, department officials were yet again resistant, saying they had done an internal audit. I filed an access to information request with respect to my question on the order paper, to obtain a copy of the document, but they could not find it. So I went through other channels, and it was after calling the department, that I learned where the report was.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226165">I find that troubling, but I do not want to focus on that aspect of the situation. I think that the internal audit addresses some important elements. It does not matter whether you are a Conservative, a Liberal or whatever. The Conservatives were part of the opposition back when we were studying the report, and the information had not been disclosed to the members of the committee, plain and simple.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226166">For those who have been following the file, this audit fills a void that existed. I just wanted the members of the committee to have a copy.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226167">Mr. Szabo's question speaks to just how difficult it was to obtain the document. On Friday, the department had it in its possession, but the liaison officer said that he was going to send it by mail. So I definitely would not have received it until a week and a half later, when he could have just put it in an envelope that I could have had picked up since it was just next door.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="10">(1110)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616081"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226168">Okay, the chair has two thoughts on this. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226169">One thought, of course, is regarding your request now for the production of the documents, which is obviously in order for discussion on the floor. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226170">The second issue is the reasons for the delay. If the committee wishes to go into that as a field of study, I think that's fair, but I think it would have to be a committee decision.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226171">Do you have a point of order?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616511"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="128094" Type="2">Mr. Paul Szabo</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226172">Mr. Chair, if I may, let's call it a point of order. This matter would not have arisen had the document been provided to the member. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="3616512" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226173">That's correct, but we're—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616087"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="128094" Type="2">Mr. Paul Szabo</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226174">This is consequential. And I think, based on the answer of the member, it's also relevant for the committee to consider bringing those persons who made those representations before us to explain to the committee.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616090"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226175">Then if the committee decides to do that on a point of issue or point of study, it has the right to do so. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226176">Right now we're going to discuss—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616092"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226177">I am not trying to—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616093"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226178">Right now we will continue discussing the request on the notice of motion.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226179">Our next speaker is Mr. Saxton, please.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616095"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159840" Type="47">Mr. Andrew Saxton (North Vancouver, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226180">Thank you, Mr. Chair. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226181">First of all, I do not object to Madame Faille's request to have this information. I do, however, wish to ask about the two days of sitting time to get those reports. That sounds extremely fast, obviously, and I'd ask Madame Faille to reconsider it and perhaps allow more time for the documentation to be provided.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616099"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226182">I am willing to do that. I am giving you a bit of the background behind my motion.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226183">On Friday, when I tried to obtain the information, I had already been looking for the report since the spring. And the department had had it for a week and a half. The library, which had asked for the document originally, received a response that I find disturbing and problematic. And that is why I set the two-day deadline. But I do agree with you. We could get the report when we get back from Christmas break. I have no problem with that. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226184">I quite like Mr. Szabo, but I do not want to get into a debate on the delay and the circumstances surrounding the issue right now. This may have just been an exception. I am waiting for the department to provide a more detailed explanation on what really happened with this request. It could very well be due to the fact that the document was subject to an audit. So I can appreciate that they were concerned. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226185">I am telling the committee members about this because, on Friday, when all of this happened, I did not have very much time to respond. I think the committee members know what I am talking about here. We do not always have much time to deal with issues that involve the Auditor General's reports, and we often do not receive responses to our access to information requests or information in a timely enough manner to make informed decisions. In this case, you have the Genest report and the Auditor General's report. But, for some reason or another, we never got that one.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="15">(1115)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616108"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226186"> Madame Faille, the chair has heard no objection to your motion at this particular point. The only discussion or point of consideration would be perhaps a small modification of the two days to five days, or whatever.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616109"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226187">When we get back?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616110"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226188">Something that would seem to be reasonable by the department, but certainly not enough to delay this, so that we have this information ASAP for your perusal and the rest of the committee's perusal.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616111"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226189">In January?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616112"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226190">Would you be comfortable with any time period?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616113"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159840" Type="47">Mr. Andrew Saxton</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226191">Madame Faille mentioned after we get back, so why don't we say the first meeting when we get back?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616115"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226192">Is that suitable to the rest of the committee?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616116"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159840" Type="47">Mr. Andrew Saxton</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226193">The first of February. We have our first meeting—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="3616380" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226194">Madame Faille, the mover of the motion, what are your thoughts on this? Are you comfortable with that?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616117"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226195">I would agree with the first meeting when we get back.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616120"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226196">Are we comfortable with that, committee?</ParaText><ParaText id="2226197"><B>Some hon. members:</B> Agreed.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226198"><B>The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp):</B> We have approval.</ParaText>
							<ParaText id="2226199"> Mr. Shipley, do you wish to debate this issue further?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616122"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159839" Type="47">Mr. Bev Shipley (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226200">No, actually I was agreeing with Madame Faille. </ParaText><ParaText id="2226201">There may be complications, and I don't know what they may be. The fact remains that we have the right to have that material. I just appreciate the fact that if anybody is defending anybody here, there needs to be a reason.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616127"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="160907" Type="47">Ms. Meili Faille</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226202">As Ms. d'Auray mentioned, usually internal audits are available online. All reports, all internal audits are posted online. I read them religiously. When I got a response that said October, I looked at the website, but it was not there, unfortunately.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3616130"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162374" Type="40">The Vice-Chair (Mr. Daryl Kramp)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2226203">The motion will now stand to read “by Tuesday, February 1, 2011”, and of course we accept Madame Faille's motion. That will be the timeframe on that. And the reason, of course—the chair just adds a little bit of personal knowledge on this—is that I understand Madame Faille's concern, after having sat through, both in the government operations committee and the public accounts committee, the issue she is concerned with, and quite frankly a number of members have as well. So that's in and over and done.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226204">At this particular point, I will adjourn for a few minutes while we go in camera.</ParaText><ParaText id="2226205">[<I>Proceedings continue in camera</I>]</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
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