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		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebate">Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Number">NUMBER 052</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Session">3rd SESSION</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Parliament">40th PARLIAMENT</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Date">Tuesday, March 8, 2011</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="DateOtherLang">Le mardi 8 mars 2011</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Institution">Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Country">CANADA</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="RecordingNote">[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="HeaderTitle">EVIDENCE</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="HeaderDate">March 8, 2011</ExtractedItem>
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		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitle">Edited Evidence * Table of Contents * Number 052 (Official Version)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleEn">Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 052 (Official Version)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleFr">Témoignages * Table des matières * Numéro 052 (Version officielle)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaNumberNumber">52</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumDay">08</ExtractedItem>
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		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumYear">2011</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaCreationTime">2011/03/08 08:50:00</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaInstitution">House of Commons</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateFr">Comité permanent des affaires autochtones et du développement du Grand Nord</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateEn">Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development</ExtractedItem>
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		<ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerTitle">Chair</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerName">Mr. Bruce Stanton</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="ParliamentNumber">40</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SessionNumber">3</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InCameraNote">PUBLIC PART ONLY - PARTIE PUBLIQUE SEULEMENT</ExtractedItem></ExtractedInformation>
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		<OrderOfBusiness><CatchLine></CatchLine><SubjectOfBusiness><SubjectOfBusinessContent><Timestamp Hr="08" Mn="50">(0850)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785734"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394715">Good morning everyone.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394716">Welcome to the 52nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394717">According to today's agenda and pursuant to the order of reference for Wednesday, March 16, 2011, we will be studying Bill <Document DbId="4451424" Type="4">C-530</Document>, An Act to amend the Northwest Territories Act (borrowing limits).</ParaText><ParaText id="2394718">And we would like to welcome Dennis Bevington, the Member of Parliament for Western Arctic.</ParaText>
							<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><ParaText id="2394719">Mr. Bevington, we have you in a different spot at the table than we are accustomed to. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394720">You'll know, members, that Mr. Bevington is the sponsor of the bill.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394721">You know the general routine here, Mr. Bevington. We'll go ahead with your opening presentation and then we'll go directly to questions from members. Go ahead.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785739"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington (Western Arctic, NDP)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394722">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394723">I very much appreciate being in front of your committee, although I have to say that a panel of peers is always a difficult situation. I expect no less careful scrutiny than any other witness who might come before you, and I'm sure that's what I'll get.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394724">I want to thank those who have helped get this bill to this point and all parliamentarians who recognize the importance of the development of the north, and I think that includes everyone in Parliament. I had hoped we could have full support for this bill, because to me this bill represents a very important principle for the Northwest Territories, that of responsible government. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394725">When we examined the Northwest Territories Act, which I did in conjunction with people in the Northwest Territories, at one point I had a meeting with the Premier of the Northwest Territories at which we discussed what would be their interest in amendments to the Northwest Territories Act going forward. Out of that discussion I had a number of amendments on the order paper in Parliament, and I chose this one because it was the most relevant to the current situation. It's also relevant to that concept of responsible government in which the ability to make choices on the part of a government is driven not only by the rules but by its capacity to invest, to grow, and to develop, and without fiscal capacity the territory that I represent is very limited. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394726">As a person who has grown up and lived under the NWT Act in Canada my whole life, I know the nature of it. I know we are, compared to other parts of this country, less endowed with responsible government and less endowed with the ability to make choices for ourselves. Improving that situation for the Northwest Territories has been a goal of mine my whole life, so I'm very pleased to be here today.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394727">I think changing the borrowing structure is a very small change within the NWT Act. At the present time, any increases to the borrowing power for the Government of the Northwest Territories have to be put through the cabinet of the Government of Canada. In the time I've been in Parliament here, over five years, we have already seen two requests for increases to the borrowing limit go forward to the cabinet of the Government of Canada. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394728">We have a situation in which there is a problem for the Government of the Northwest Territories because it must come cap in hand to Ottawa. That relationship is not correct. That relationship can cause pressures that are not seemly for a government, pressures that can put a government in the position of having to acquiesce in other ways in order to get what it needs to be able to perform as a government. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394729">My Bill <Document DbId="4451424" Type="4">C-530</Document> would change that relationship so that the borrowing limit for the Government of the Northwest Territories would be set at 70% of the total revenues of the government in any one year. We feel that 70% is a very fair accommodation. It fits very well with the present fiscal policy of the Government of the Northwest Territories and the financial policy they enacted, whereby at no time can the debt interest payments exceed 5% of their gross revenues. </ParaText>
							<Timestamp Hr="08" Mn="55">(0855)</Timestamp><ParaText id="2394730">The Government of the Northwest Territories has set their fiscal policy very strictly, and that has provided them with an AA-plus rating from Moody's. That's higher than many provinces have; the Government of the Northwest Territories as it stands now has achieved a rating with its fiscal policies that's superior to that of many provinces. This act will give the government an ability to work their borrowing limit to a particular formula. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394731">Why do we need to borrow more money in the Northwest Territories? Well, we're very much a developing territory, and in some years over the last decade we've seen the highest GDP growth of any region in the country. We need infrastructure terribly, and I appreciate the work that this committee has done in establishing a report on northern development. Within that report I think there is much knowledge, and there is an understanding of the situation in the Northwest Territories and in the other territories as well.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394732">We must move away from this colonial structure that we have. It's not seemly. It's not right that the Government of the Northwest Territories has to go cap in hand to Ottawa for legitimate borrowing purposes, for legitimately moving ahead with its agenda as it sees fit. That is the nature of responsible government.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394733">A number of issues were raised in the debate on the bill. I would just touch on them now. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394734">Consultation was something that was questioned. I would just like to refer to a letter that was sent to me by the Premier of the Northwest Territories in October of last year, before I submitted this bill for second reading. He says:</ParaText><ParaText id="2394735"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">Thank you for your letter of October 5, 2010, in which you lay out the provisions of Bill C-530, an act to amend the Northwest Territories Act. The bill would amend the Northwest Territories Act to allow the Commissioner to borrow money up to a certain limit....</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394736"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2"> I appreciate your concern and efforts with respect to the borrowing limit, and your offer to involve and coordinate with the Government of the Northwest Territories.</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394737">He goes on to say:</ParaText><ParaText id="2394738"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">...the Minister of Finance...has advised me that he has asked his officials to undertake a review of the operation of the NWT's borrowing limit.</QuotePara></Quote>
							</ParaText><ParaText id="2394739">That would be the third review undertaken in the last five years.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394740"> He goes on to say:</ParaText><ParaText id="2394741"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">This review will also include the Yukon and Nunavut governments. It is expected that the review will be concluded by the end of the fiscal year.</QuotePara></Quote>
							</ParaText><ParaText id="2394742">Well, there is still no movement on that review. At the same time, this clearly this shows that I have consulted with the government. The government knew about my plan.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394743"> The territorial government as it stands now has a need for increased fiscal capacity. It can't put all its eggs in one basket. It certainly couldn't put its eggs in my basket. It must continue to work to get the fiscal capacity from the Government of Canada in order for it to continue business.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394744">My bill would change it, but they can't rely on my bill, because of course it has to go through a very long and rigorous procedure as a private member's bill, unless all parliamentarians consent to allowing it to move forward in a more expeditious fashion.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394745">So consultation has taken place. That's the position of the Government of Northwest Territories, which is interested in the proposal because it sees it as being one that is ultimately stronger than what they can get simply by going to cabinet.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394746">Another question was around the issue of negotiating the borrowing limit with all three territories together. I think that's really inappropriate, because we are three unique territories. It's very clear, with the movement on devolution, that this is the way we're going ahead. We're not going ahead as a single unit. We are three separate jurisdictions, and I think the respect for that reality has to be there. Each unique territory will have its own requirements and move in its own fashion.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394747">The Government of Northwest Territories has a very strong fiscal policy. I would certainly be willing to share what I have on that with you. </ParaText>
							<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="00">(0900)</Timestamp><ParaText id="2394748">In a letter from the Parliamentary Budget Officer it was indicated that this bill will not have an impact on federal government finances. That request was initiated by MP Mike Wallace to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. That letter was dated December 13, 2010.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394749">All of this information is available to the committee, and I'd be willing to provide it if required.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785826"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394750">We're just a little over time. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394751">Thank you very much, Mr. Bevington, for your opening comments.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394752">Now we'll go to questions in the usual fashion. We'll probably have time for only one round, and maybe a question or two short questions after that. Members may want to consider splitting time with their colleagues. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394753">Let's go ahead, Mr. Bagnell, for the first question.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785832"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394754">Before my time starts, are there any more witnesses on this bill? Is the GNWT coming?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785833"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394755">Yes. We will have a meeting with the Government of the Northwest Territories after the break.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785834"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394756">Thank you, Dennis. You're very thorough. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394757">To date I really haven't heard of anyone who has any complaints. It's a very simple bill. You've covered all the bases. We'd be pretty nervy at the federal government level if we tried to restrict the limits of your bill, considering we're in much more debt than even this bill would allow the NWT to go into.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394758">I have a technical question. How does the GNWT normally calculate the estimated revenues--the percentage of the borrowing limit that would be allowed? They're estimated in advance, so in a sense you're allowing borrowing of a guessed amount. How do they do that technical calculation?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785850"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394759">Much of the Government of the Northwest Territories revenues are part of the transfer system--probably 70% of them. I have to admit that much of that 70% in the Northwest Territories is taken up in royalties that the federal government collects from our resources and taxes. Nonetheless, 70% comes from a formula that's clearly established.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785857"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394760"> What about the rest?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785858"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394761">The rest is based on projections from the Department of Finance within the Government of the Northwest Territories and presented with the budget in February every year.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394762">In February of every year a budget is presented with those estimates. With the 30% of the budget that is in question, they would be doing that based on labour market surveys, on-- </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="05">(0905)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785873"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394763">So it's based on the budget figure.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785874"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394764">That's right.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785875"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394765">My other question is related to the royal recommendation. As you very appropriately said, the Parliamentary Budget Officer said there was no cost, so there's no.... I can't conceivably see how anyone would even suggest there's a royal recommendation. Has anyone suggested that? </ParaText><ParaText id="2394766">Because the federal government, by the Constitution, has to provide an equal level of living standard to all Canadians, to me this would reduce federal costs, because now the GNWT would be taking up part of that responsibility. They'd be building infrastructure and doing things that the federal government might otherwise have to do, such as the big dams; taking that away, if anything, would save the federal government money. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394767">As the Parliamentary Budget Officer said, it wouldn't cost the federal government anything for sure. Allowing the GNWT to borrow more, just as if you allowed Ontario to borrow more, has nothing to do with the federal government.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394768">Has anyone suggested to you any possible reason that it would need a royal recommendation?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785899"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394769">We looked at that very carefully before we presented this bill, because we were concerned about that as well. I would welcome that debate, because quite clearly the debate would be based on the principle that we do not have an independent government and that this government is not an independent unit. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394770">There are Supreme Court rulings that give us some comfort that we are a responsible, independent government apart from the federal government. That argument is very important for all three territories. We don't belong to the Government of Canada. Through the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I believe, with its guarantee of political rights, we are and should be on a basis similar to the provinces.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="3785946" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394771">Well, the federal government has given the Yukon government far more responsibilities, and huge responsibilities, and is treating them as a level of government. It would be very paternalistic if the federal government refused this tiny adjustment to the NWT, don't you think?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="3785951" ToCText="Mr. Bevington"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394772">That's why I really would appeal to the government as well, in the spirit of the Mulroney government, which was one of the more progressive governments we've seen in terms of developing an independent northern territories. I can't understand why the government wouldn't want to see an expression of this independence through the support of this kind of bill. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394773">I hope perhaps they will come to the position that this is a good bill, and that by supporting this bill they're supporting the legitimate aspirations of the government in the Northwest Territories and the people in the Northwest Territories for political independence from Ottawa.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785967"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394774">Yes, I think we've given far more autonomy and far more money than this couple of hundred million dollars to even some individual first nations, let alone one of the huge provinces or territories in Canada.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394775">Maybe you could just give a couple of examples--such as the dams, etc.--of the infrastructure you need that would help you become more self-sufficient with this borrowing and that would actually reduce federal government costs and help develop the resources of the Northwest Territories. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3785974"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394776">One of the projects I'd like to speak to is the Mackenzie Valley highway. Quite clearly, if we build the Mackenzie Valley highway before the pipeline is built, before we develop the resources, it will be less costly to develop the gas and oil resources in the Northwest Territories up the Mackenzie Valley. That means that there will be higher royalties paid to the federal government.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394777">If we go ahead with the plans that we see as important for the Northwest Territories, we will see a reduction in cost to the government as well. If we go ahead with the plans for the Taltson and bring clean hydroelectric power to the mining district of the Slave geological province, we will reduce the costs of development and we will increase the royalties and taxes paid to the federal government. Everything we do with this money can be a return to the federal government. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394778">Take the road to Tuktoyaktuk; if we have an all-weather road into Tuktoyaktuk, which is in the planning stages with an environmental assessment right now, Arctic sovereignty will be better served. Everything will work better with improved infrastructure in the Northwest Territories.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="10">(0910)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="3785999" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394779">Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394780">It is now over to Mr. Lemay.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786000"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394781">Thank you.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394782">I would hardly call it offensive when I said before that the Bloc Québécois was going to vote against your bill. It is certainly not what we would do—and that is what our party was trying to tell you in the beginning—despite your position on Bill <Document DbId="4473158" Type="3">C-20</Document> regarding the change to the development of Gatineau Park. Quebec would have really liked to be able to count on your support when the committee you were on was dealing with that bill. That being said, clearly, we will be supporting your bill. We asked our Bloc Québécois colleagues to respect your position, which we do not share, on Bill <Document DbId="4473158" Type="3">C-20</Document>. However, Bill <Document DbId="4451424" Type="4">C-530</Document>, which you put forward, is extremely important, and we will of course support it.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394783">Furthermore, Mr. Bevington, I would like to know what will happen with the taxes and all the royalties. For instance, who gets the taxes payable by a mining company operating in the Northwest Territories? Does the part of the country you represent, the Northwest Territories, get a share or does it all go to the federal government?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786020"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394784">At the present time, all the royalties from mining belong to the federal government, with the exception of a very small royalty that's given in the Sahtu region to the aboriginal first nations who struck that deal, and also within the Inuvialuit region, where there are.... Of course, in the Inuvialuit region they haven't had any resource development yet, so they don't get any royalties, but the present royalty system returns it all to the federal government.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786031"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394785">Unless I am mistaken, Mr. Bevington, the Northwest Territories' entire budget has to receive federal approval before the funding is transferred and you can administer it. That is my understanding of the current situation. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786037"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394786">No; like the provinces, the Governments of the Northwest Territories and Yukon and Nunavut have negotiated a transfer agreement. This is a multi-year agreement that delivers <I>x</I> number of dollars to each territory, regardless of the royalties or the taxes or anything else. It's an equalization deal much like the one with the provinces. It's called a transfer arrangement—it's not called an equalization deal—and that is how it's done. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786054"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394787">If you go from 50% to 70%, something we fully support—I might go as high as 80%, but you are asking for 70%—does that give the Northwest Territories, the area you represent, more independence?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786058"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394788">It would definitely give the Government of the Northwest Territories about another $450 million in added borrowing capacity, going from $575 million to just over $1 billion. It can make its own choice about that. It can decide whether it wants to borrow that money. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394789">It has a very strict financial policy that I think lines up pretty well with that kind of limit, because if only 5% of the gross revenues can be applied as interest on loans, that means that relatively speaking the cumulative debt can't be much more than that anyhow. This lines up with their existing fiscal policy. As the government expands—and we are an expanding territory—we probably expect the growth in gross revenues will be incrementally larger over a period of time. That means the debt limit will grow as well, but that we're on a formula, rather than having to go back to Ottawa.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="15">(0915)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786084"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394790">As I listen to you describe the situation in the Northwest Territories, it makes me think of a large aboriginal community. You are very dependent on the federal government. I think we need to put an end to that dependence and pass this bill.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394791">If we were to agree that approval would be required “[i]f the total amount of money that is borrowed at any time under ordinances made under paragraph (1)(<I>a</I>) exceeds 70% of the estimated revenues”, would it open the door to the Taltson Hydroelectric Expansion Project? Would it help you on that end?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786130"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394792">Additional borrowing power would allow the Government of the Northwest Territories to be in a position of partnership on many of these things. As it stands now, with no capacity in the system, they can't even enter into a partnership on these kinds of deals. That was one of my real concerns: that we would have to ask companies from Alberta or from other places in Canada to develop our hydro system, because we have no internal capacity in the Northwest Territories to do it for ourselves. Without the borrowing capacity of the territorial government, we might end up losing resources. We might end up giving away resources that in most cases, in most provinces, they keep, and you know the pattern in provinces has been that hydro resources are owned by the province, not by someone from outside the province. That's a pattern we want to continue as well.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786148"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394793">Thank you, Mr. Lemay.</ParaText>
							<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><ParaText id="2394794">Now we'll go to Ms. Crowder.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786151"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder (Nanaimo—Cowichan, NDP)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394795">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394796">Thank you, Dennis, for coming and for laying out pretty clearly the case for this bill.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394797">You raised a couple of points around responsible government and still having NWT grounded in a very colonial approach in the federal government's relationships with the territorial governments. I think this case of the borrowing capacity is a good example of that.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394798"> I have a couple of points.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394799"> I just want to put on record the exact quote out of this letter of December 13 from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, because I know this has come up with the estimated costs. He says, “With respect to Bill C-530, our review indicates that there would be no incremental cost arising from adoption of these legislative amendments.”</ParaText><ParaText id="2394800">I think it's important for that to be on the record, because I know it's a concern that people have raised. That's just a comment.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394801">The second piece that I wanted to have you address is this: have you heard of any arguments against this bill, and if yes, what are they? I'd like you to present your counter-arguments. Have you heard any criticism of the bill, anything that you think is a legitimate concern that's been raised with the bill?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786174"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394802">I think the answer I gave to Mr. Bagnell was that there was some concern about one area in the actual bill itself, and that was the determination of the gross revenues, but I think that staying below the 70% of gross revenues is a responsibility of the Government of the Northwest Territories.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394803">We haven't taken out the provision within the act that if this is not adequate, in the end the Government of the Northwest Territories can go back to the cabinet. That provision within the bill would allow some discretionary move as well, if for some reason there was a very large requirement for fiscal capacity that went far beyond this. We have left it like that so that there is some flexibility.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394804">I had a conversation with the finance minister, and he indicated to me that he thought this bill was moving in the right direction. My point to the government would be that I've got a bill that amends the NWT Act; it's in place, and we've gone through second reading, so if you want to accomplish this job, just take the bill over and finish it. It's there for you. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394805">This is not a partisan issue. I really didn't want it to be a partisan issue, because it's all about something that all Canadians and everyone on both sides of the House can support--that is, giving people of the north the tools to do the job they need to do for all of Canada.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394806">That's where I'm coming from. I reject the idea that this is in any way a partisan bill. It's not. It's just something that has to be done. If this is a convenient tool for Parliament to accomplish good work, then let's all get behind it and make it happen.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="20">(0920)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786205"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394807">In fact, I think what you pointed out is that if that's the criticism around the 70%, what you're actually talking about is a government that has a mature approach to self-determination. It seems reasonable that NWT should be able to make their own fiscal decisions without a father-knows-best approach to it.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394808">In response to the question that Mr. Lemay asked about resources, I think you raised a point that perhaps many Canadians aren't aware of, in that right now NWT does not benefit directly from the resources in its territory.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394809">I come from British Columbia where mines and other things are developed. The royalties come directly back to the province. The province then gets to determine how they're going to allocate that out of their general revenues. I think it's an important point to re-emphasize for Canadians who may be paying attention to this that NWT does not get to control those resources.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394810">Do you want to add some further information to that, Dennis?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786218"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394811"> There are two issues. One is royalties and the other is control of resources. Quite clearly this government and the Government of the Northwest Territories have decided, through an agreement in principle, to pursue control of resources in a better fashion. I see that as being a positive step. It just needs a little work.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394812">When it comes to royalties, we see in many cases that the government is not willing to even put them on the table. One of the largest sources of royalties is the Norman Wells oil field. The government traded royalties for ownership, and now they won't even.... This has been a policy of the government for the last five or six parliaments. It's within the federal administration, and they won't even consider returning that to the Government of the Northwest Territories. It's out of the equation.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394813">It's very difficult to deal with royalty issues. When you have the Norman Wells oil field, which produces in excess of $120 million a year for the federal government, and there is no access to that money at all—and they don't want to give access to it—it says how tough a dealing we have with the federal government on royalties.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394814">Once again, this is not a partisan issue. It has been carried through many parliaments. This is a problem we have to resolve.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786250"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394815">Do I have time?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786251"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394816">You have about 20 seconds.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786252"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394817">Is there anything you want to add in my 20 seconds?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786253"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394818">No, that's fine.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="25">(0925)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786254"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394819">Thank you, Ms. Crowder.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394820">Now we'll go to Mr. Rickford for seven minutes.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786256"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford (Kenora, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394821">Thank you, Mr. Chair. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394822">On a point of clarification, you mentioned that you spoke with the finance minister. Which finance minister were you referring to?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786258"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394823">It was Mr. Flaherty.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786262"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394824">First of all, Mr. Bevington, I want to be clear: as you well know, there's a process in place. We're working collaboratively and in consultation with the Government of the Northwest Territories. In fact, discussions are well under way around the borrowing limit issue, and our thought, fairly confidently, is that they will be completed by 2011. That seems to be the way that federal, provincial, and territorial governments ought to carry out their business. I make that point because I'm a bit concerned about your use of “we” and “you” in your testimony, and indeed in answers to my colleagues. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394825">It seems a bit unilateral when we see you here voting against the Northern Economic Development Agency. You voted against tax relief for your constituents when you voted against increasing northern residents' deductions, and today's proposal was apparently developed without the Northwest Territories government having its voice heard. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394826">I can only go on quotes to substantiate that. Let's listen to what the Northwest Territories finance minister, Michael Miltenberger, said: <Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">...we have indicated to the Member of Parliament for the Western Arctic that it's his right to pursue a Private Member's Bill...But we have made it clear that we have embarked upon a process with the federal Finance department and the other two territories to review our borrowing limit. That's the process we're engaged in. That's the process we are committed to. That's what we are paying attention to. That's where we see the issues with our concern of the borrowing limit being addressed and it's the one we're fully engaged in...The member of Parliament has a track that he's on but we're not involved with that.</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394827">Dave Ramsay, MLA for Kam Lake, said: <Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">...I'm surprised that our Member of Parliament for the Western Arctic is down in Ottawa trumpeting Bill C-530. </QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394828"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">The residents of this Territory would like to know who gave him his marching orders or...is he marching to the beat of his own drummer? </QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394829"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">To my knowledge, our government has never talked about a percentage of expenditures as a debt limit. </QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394830"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">Mr. Speaker, the federal government is currently analyzing and reviewing the debt limits of all three northern territories. Please, let's let them do their work.</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394831">Robert Hawkins, MLA for Yellowknife Centre, said: <Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentRest="2" IndentFirst="2">...Who had given the Member of Parliament marching orders to act on our behalf?...Who has he talked to in this particular government? My concern is, of course, he has not talked to me and I've looked around and only heard of one person he has specifically spoken to, and I'm not sure if that was any more than water-cooler talk at the time.</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394832">Forgive me, Mr. Bevington, but this doesn't sound like overwhelming support from the territorial government. It certainly doesn't sound like your counterparts in the territory want you acting so unilaterally and paternalistically, and then you have a record down here that doesn't support a lot of the superordinate goals and interests of the constituents. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394833">I'm going to ask, Mr. Bevington, first and foremost, can you provide this committee with the dates, names, and feedback for all formal consultations that you allege have taken place as part of the pre-emptive work you have done on this proposal? Can you answer in the yes or the no?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786306"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394834"> Yes. I actually have this available, and we will present it to the committee. I would--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786307"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394835">Do you have any response, Mr. Bevington, to the quotes of your colleagues, in fairness?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786314"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394836">I would say—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786319"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394837">That's the Minister of Finance for the Northwest Territories.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786320"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394838">Okay. Here's the latest quote from the Minister of Finance, the Honourable Mike Miltenberger, yesterday in the Legislative Assembly. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394839"><CommitteeQuote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">Thank you. The route for a Private Member's Bill is fraught with many challenges and hurdles to clear. It has made some fairly good progress.</QuotePara></CommitteeQuote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394840">He is speaking to Bill C-530.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394841">
								<Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">It's now before a committee after second reading. If, for example, a federal election comes, then the bill will die on the order paper. In the meantime, I think we'll want to keep our attention firmly fixed on the work that we're doing with the federal government, in terms of trying to resolve the borrowing—</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786323"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394842">Respectfully, Mr. Bevington, that doesn't sound like a vote of confidence. What it sounds like to me is that he's grateful that there—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="30">(0930)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786326"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394843">Well, you have a government that is—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786328"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394844">Mr. Bevington, I'll ask the questions. How does that sound? You've got lots of experience.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786334"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394845">Can I answer them?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786335"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394846">At my discretion, you sure can. That wasn't a question. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394847">That comment sounds to me as though he's very grateful that there's a process going on that legitimizes what the interests of the federal government and the territory might be with respect to this.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394848">I have a list of technical questions that I can't possibly get into in seven minutes, but I will submit those questions and ask for a written response.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394849">I'm curious. Your proposal suggests that the federal government needs to keep a borrowing limit on the Northwest Territories. Why do you think any borrowing limit is necessary? Why didn't you simply propose to remove the borrowing limit altogether?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786339"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394850">Well, they have certainly established a borrowing limit within the concept of the NWT fiscal policy. I felt that this particular aspect, which I did discuss directly with the finance minister of the Northwest Territories, Michael Miltenberger, who is actually my next-door neighbour--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786346"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394851">Does that have any bearing?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786347"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394852">I think it does. I think you can quite clearly--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786348"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394853">What you're saying is you may have talked to him over the fence rather than consulted with him in a formal meeting--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786351"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394854"> I met with him and the Premier of the Northwest Territories in September. We discussed the potential for amendments to the NWT Act. I explained to them what the process was, and as I said earlier, I offered to consider any other amendments that they would consider--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786352"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394855"> If I may ask, Mr. Bevington, while the two of you were perhaps putting gasoline in your snow blowers, did you get any sense across the driveway that the finance minister was committed to the negotiations that his government is having with the federal government in a formal process that's taking place right here and right now that you expect—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786356"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394856">I fully support him in the work that he's doing.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786357"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394857"> Doesn't that make your bill redundant?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786358"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394858">No, it doesn't. If he can establish a higher borrowing limit with the Government of Canada during these negotiations, I think that's a great idea. My bill will set up a formula for the future. That's the difference.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786360"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394859">Thank you very much, Mr. Rickford.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394860">Members, we did get started just a bit early, so we have time for maybe two more questions. They can be two- to three-minute questions or so. One will be from the Liberals and one from the Conservatives.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394861">Mr. Bagnell, did you want to go ahead? Then we'll have three minutes from the other side.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786365"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394862">Thanks. I just have one question.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394863">Has anyone given any possible reason that this bill should not be supported? I know obviously the GNWT has to support any processes that would help to move it forward, so it would be supportive of all processes. Have you heard of—I'm not talking about some of the ridiculous comments from across—any single Canadian in the Northwest Territories or outside the Northwest Territories who had any objection to this bill?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786374"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394864">I have yet to hear. There are people who are concerned with borrowing by governments. I have had emails from those people. Constituents of mine also feel that governments should not borrow any money at all, or should be very carefully monitored in terms of their borrowing capacity. That is a political point of view. To me, there have been very few of these. There have been a number of statements—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786385"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159398" Type="47">Hon. Larry Bagnell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394865">But you also have outlined that the GNWT has some very strict borrowing policies on what can be borrowed, and how much, which is why it has such a great credit rating.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786386"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394866">That's very correct. That's a thing that people should really look at, what we're doing in the Northwest Territories. We have to act responsibly. We have to develop the territory. We have to ensure that we have the fiscal ability to do that. Otherwise, we will miss the opportunities that are there to create an economy that will work for all of us.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394867">When it comes to statements in the Legislative Assembly, I could speak to Mr. Menicoche, who is an MLA there as well. He spoke there yesterday. He said:<Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">Our Territory is responsible; it is acting in a manner that many other provinces should emulate, yet we do not have the fiscal capacity to do the things we need to do for our Territory. Our constituencies have many needs and we have limited dollars. I hope that the Members of this House will support this bill which gives the Northwest Territories the tools we need to continue to build a strong and beautiful part of Canada.</QuotePara></Quote>
							</ParaText><ParaText id="2394868">That's what Mr. Menicoche said yesterday in the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394869">Thank you.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="35">(0935)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786400"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394870">Mr. Rickford, you have three minutes.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786402"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394871">I understand that many experts have looked at this bill and what is proposed and have serious questions about its technical feasibility. I'm going to ask you a series of questions to which I would appreciate a detailed reply.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394872">First, how would the estimated revenue number used to calculate the territorial borrowing limits be generated? Further to that, what information would be used? I can provide these questions to you in written format, Mr. Bevington. When is the estimate to be done and by whom? Does the federal government have to review this information? How will the Auditor General review it, to ensure it's transparent?</ParaText><ParaText id="2394873">I have another question. Have you had a letter from the federal Auditor General, who I understand is responsible for overseeing and auditing the Northwest Territories government, or from anyone who has vetted your formula as appropriate? Do you have this kind of information at your disposal to submit to this committee for its consideration?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786415"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394874">Do you want me to answer your first question?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786420"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394875">Sure.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786421"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394876">As I said to Mr. Bagnell, the Government of the Northwest Territories creates a budget. It's presented every February, prior to the fiscal year. In that budget, the projected revenues for the Government of the Northwest Territories are outlined by the government itself. That's clearly the path that would be taken with this bill. Once again, it's the responsibility of the Government of the Northwest Territories to determine its own revenues. I think that would fit well with this bill and with the spirit and intent of this bill. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394877">So there's the process that would be followed. There is within the Northwest Territories Act still the flexibility for an appeal to a cabinet, if required.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786432"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394878">I'll give you the list of technical questions there.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394879">Mr. Bevington, in my last 20 seconds or so, has the Northwest Territories legislature formally voted on and endorsed your proposal?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786440"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159698" Type="2">Mr. Dennis Bevington</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394880">No, it hasn't.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786441"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="165759" Type="47">Mr. Greg Rickford</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394881">Okay. Thank you.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786442"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394882">Thank you, Mr. Rickford. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394883">Mr. Bevington, thank you for your appearance this morning.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394884">Members, we're going to suspend briefly while we just change the table here and welcome our next witness.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394885">Just for your benefit as well and to pick up on an earlier point, we will resume consideration of this bill on Thursday, March 24. We have the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, the Department of Finance, and the Government of the Northwest Territories as the three witnesses Thursday, March 24.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394886">Mr. Bevington, as an associate member of the committee you may want to join us for that as well.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394887">We hope at that point, by the way, that we may be able to get to clause-by-clause consideration. We will be available for that, if the committee wishes to do that. That's on the 24th.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394888">Let's suspend for a few minutes, and then we'll begin our next segment.</ParaText><Pause><StartPause><Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="35">(0935)</Timestamp></StartPause><EndPause><Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="40">(0940)</Timestamp></EndPause></Pause></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786514"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394889"> Welcome back, everyone. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394890">We are taking up the second part of our meeting this morning. This is pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, March 2, on Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575, An Act respecting the accountability and enhanced financial transparency of elected officials of First Nations communities</Document>. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394891">We welcome, much like the earlier witness we had, the sponsor of the bill. Ms. Kelly Block is the member of Parliament for the riding of Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar. Of course, Ms. Block, you know the drill here. We will do an opening presentation of up to 10 minutes, and then we'll go to a seven-minute round for questions. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394892">Members, just for your benefit, Ms. Block can only be with us until no more than about 20 minutes after the hour, so we'll see how our questions go and try to suspend no later than that. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394893">Go ahead, Ms. Block, with your opening comments. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786525"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394894">Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394895">Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to be here to speak to my private member's bill, the <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">First Nations Financial Transparency Act</Document>.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394896">First and foremost, I'd like to thank my colleagues for their support in getting <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">Bill C-575</Document> this far. The bill addresses a very important issue. I'm glad that my Conservative colleagues and 15 members of the Liberal caucus voted in favour of giving the right to more effective governance to all first nations communities. The MPs deserve to be commended for supporting grassroots aboriginal Canadians.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394897">Allow me to share a few facts about Saskatchewan. There are 70 first nations in Saskatchewan, and 61 are affiliated to one of the nine tribal councils. The majority are members of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. As of February 28, 2009, the total registered population of Saskatchewan first nations was 129,138 individuals. There are five linguistic groups represented in Saskatchewan: Cree, Dakota, Dene, Nakota, and Saulteaux. Treaties 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10 cover the province of Saskatchewan. Finally, the First Nations University of Canada is in Regina, Saskatchewan.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394898">Knowing that my time was coming up on the order of precedence, I took the development of my private member's bill very seriously. It was important to me to address an issue that I believed all Canadians, and indeed all parliamentarians, would be able to support. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394899">The issue of transparency and accountability is very important to me as a member of Parliament. I believe that members of first nations, like other Canadians, deserve transparency and accountability from their elected officials on the disclosure of remuneration derived from public funds.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394900"><Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">Bill C-575</Document> would ensure this and would level the playing field for all first nations communities. There is no consistency right now. Some first nations proactively disclose the information, some provide it when asked, and others outright refuse. It is clear this has been a long-standing issue for first nations community members trying to access the information. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394901"><Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">Bill C-575</Document> is a straightforward bill. If passed in its current form, it would require first nations to proactively disclose the salaries they earn and the expenses they have been reimbursed when the funds come from federal tax dollars. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394902">To be honest with you, I find it quite perplexing that <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">Bill C-575</Document> has been met with as much resistance as it has. Elected officials across the country disclose this information as a matter of due course. As I stated earlier, aboriginal Canadians deserve the same level of disclosure from their politicians.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394903">The bill does not increase the burden of reporting on first nations. The information is already collected, audited, and submitted to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. This straightforward legislation mandates the proactive disclosure of the information and allows the Minister of INAC to disclose it in the community profile section on the INAC website.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394904">I'd like to briefly address the accusations that have been made surrounding this bill. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394905">It has been suggested that <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">Bill C-575</Document> somehow makes troubling insinuations about first nations politicians. Nothing could be further from the truth. Bill C-575 makes no insinuations or judgments about the salary levels that first nations governments have the duty and indeed the right to set for themselves. It is my hope that Bill C-575 will be used as an effective tool to dispel some of the unfair generalizations that have been made.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394906">Neither is <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">Bill C-575</Document> redundant or somehow unnecessary. If that were the case, I would not be getting letters, emails, and phone calls from first nations band members thanking me for introducing this bill.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394907">I want to quote from a letter that I received on January 11. The quotation is as follows: “I am in total support of passing the <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">First Nations Financial Transparency Act</Document> and I will/have been speaking to the grassroots people in the past few weeks. The only support to kill the act is from the leadership who do not favour the figures to be made available to band membersas well as to the mainstream public at large. It is just a given that the bill should have been there a long time ago. I am very happy you are doing this for the average band member of the first nations land.”</ParaText>
							<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="45">(0945)</Timestamp><ParaText id="2394908">On October 3, I received another letter from a first nations member, who wrote, “I have felt compelled to email you my support for the first nations bill you have introduced. It is so long overdue and needed. The situation on my reserve is the former chief and council...”--and all names have been redacted, I would add--“...have to account for a whopping $1.3 million in oil moneys missing, yet no one ever hears about this, nor do the media care. With a bill of this nature, it could have been prevented, in my opinion. Please do all you can to have this bill passed and implemented immediately so that our future, the children, never have to go through this, as we have allowed through ignorance and deceit.”</ParaText><ParaText id="2394909">Regardless of the facts behind these letters, one thing is clear: if passed, Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document> will ensure that all first nations members know what their elected officials earn. I suppose it could be asked why this is important. I would like to point to just one example of excellent leadership.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394910">Chief Darcy Bear of the Whitecap Dakota First Nation has taken his reserve from a 70% unemployment rate to a 4% unemployment rate. This is what he has to say about the issue and the bill, and I quote: “...I fully support Mrs. Block's private member's bill. Our prudent, ethical business-like approach has been vital to achieving that dramatic turnaround.”</ParaText><ParaText id="2394911">He went on to say, “How can you attract banks and business partners into your community without being accountable and transparent to your own members? You can’t.”</ParaText><ParaText id="2394912">This supports my belief that enhanced accountability will help spur economic development, create jobs, and fuel overall growth and success for first nations communities.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394913">There are very good examples of transparent and accountable first nations governments. There are those, however, that are not. Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document> will ensure transparency and accountability for all first nations communities.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394914">In conclusion, Mr. Chair, this is a very important issue, and this is a very important committee dealing with these very important issues. I urge you to have a broad, open dialogue on the issue with Canadians from coast to coast to coast. Amend Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document>, if necessary, and ensure that this legislation is passed.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="50">(0950)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786639"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394915">Ms. Block, thank you for your presentation.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394916">We will begin with Mr. Russell, who has seven minutes.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786646"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162302" Type="40">Mr. Todd Russell (Labrador, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394917"> Thank you, Mr. Chair. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394918">Good morning to you, Ms. Block, and thank you for appearing before us.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394919"> No doubt we all, around this table and in the House of Commons, share the principles of transparency and accountability, which we have criticized your own government on many times. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394920">Your bill purports to address these principles. I would refute that. It does little or nothing to enhance transparency or accountability. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394921">In terms of consultation, indeed I would like a list of the names and dates of individuals and people or organizations that you consulted with prior to the development of your bill. If you could produce that, I'd like to have that in written form and presented to the committee. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394922">As you know, when it comes to aboriginal people, the duty to consult is a legal duty that we have, and we take that seriously. It's a policy the government has employed, or wants to abide by, I would hope. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394923">There are those, Ms. Block, who say that it your bill violates the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. People say it's inconsistent with the inherent right of self-government, which the government purports to uphold. Many would say that it perpetuates stereotypes, that it is prejudicial, and that it smacks somewhat of racism. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394924">I will only quote from the Quebec Native Women's Association from their November 29 press release, which said, and I quote, </ParaText><ParaText id="2394925"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">QNW is concerned with the misleading portrait of the kind of fiscal transparency that is happening on reserves. While QNW--</QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394926">--meaning the Quebec Native Women--</ParaText><ParaText id="2394927"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">--believes that transparency and accountability for First Nations governments are an important part of good governance, the private members' Bill C-575, as presented by MP Kelly Block (Conservative Party) seems to be motivated by a prejudicial and racist view of Aboriginal peoples “as living off society”, by implying that the federal funds coming from “good tax payers' money” granted to Aboriginal chiefs and councillors are ill spent. </QuotePara></Quote></ParaText><ParaText id="2394928">It seems to take a blanket approach to aboriginal peoples, aboriginal leadership, as all being somehow corrupt and inept. The examples you used are almost like a byline. We have this cloud of suspicion and insinuation, and then an apology saying that we don't want to spread that too far and giving the example of some first nation. If that were a byline.... It's never that there is good accountability, and the exception to good accountability and transparency is a few first nations. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394929">In fact, the only stats provided by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation indicate that there were problems with only 7% of all elected officials. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394930">When it comes to the issue of redundancy, I'm pretty sure you must be aware of the comprehensive funding arrangement, the national model that INAC has in place, that calls for generally accepted accounting principles and auditors general. I'm sure you're also aware of the year-end financial reporting handbook from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, which has, as Annex D, a schedule of salaries, honoraria, travel expenses, and other remuneration all listed right there. It's the same thing that your bill purports to now open up. It's all there, so I believe the bill is redundant. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394931">When we talk about consultation, one can use the words that it was unilaterally brought in, and in your own testimony speaking in the House, as noted in <I>Hansard</I>, you said, “I also, in speaking with my colleagues...”. That sounds like water cooler talk, sitting around talking across a few snacks and a coffee, and you bring in bills about something so fundamental to first nations people. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394932">I want to ask you one very simple question in addition to the ones I've already asked. You've been in power for six years. Why only now did this suddenly become an issue for the government, if there were egregious issues of accountability and transparency throughout this time? Whatever happened to the collaborative efforts with first nations that were taking place in 2005 and 2006? Why was that not continued? The issue of a first nations auditor general was even being talked about in 2005-2006. Why didn't those efforts continue? Is there anything that could have stopped the minister? What legally was stopping the minister from taking this information and making it public? </ParaText>
							<Timestamp Hr="09" Mn="55">(0955)</Timestamp><ParaText id="2394933">Could the minister not have adjusted his policies in either of those two documents and made this information public? What was stopping him? What was fundamentally different, except that now we have this huge issue, and it's causing divisions and enhancing stereotypes?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786742"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394934">Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394935">There are so many statements there. I don't agree with the premise of the statements that were made.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394936">What I will tell you is this: if you have questions as to why this wasn't done prior to my introducing this bill, I think those questions are better posed to the minister himself in regard to why something wasn't done before this. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394937">I became aware that this was an issue for first nations community members seeking access to this very information, which is why, when my opportunity came forward to introduce a private member's bill, I saw it as a meaningful issue and took the opportunity to introduce it into the House of Commons.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786750"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162302" Type="40">Mr. Todd Russell</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394938">What made you aware of this? Was it the talk around the cooler?</ParaText><ParaText id="2394939">Can you give us a list of who approached you, of who you consulted with? Can you provide that to us prior to the development of this bill? </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786756"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394940">Mr. Chair, I think I made it very clear in some of my answers in the House when this bill was being debated that I didn't conduct formal consultations. In fact, you may be very aware that when a first nations member comes forward to talk to you about issues in their community, they're not that willing to have their name brought forward; many of the conversations and emails that I had were kept within the context of confidentiality, and I respect that confidentiality as a member of Parliament.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394941">As a member of Parliament for two years, I've been out in the community, I've been intentional in developing relationships with first nations members, and I've been intentional in paying attention to the issues.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394942">Thank you.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786770"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394943">Thank you, Mr. Russell.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394944">It is now Mr. Lemay's turn for seven minutes.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786771"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394945">Good morning, Ms. Block.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394946">Tell me, how many aboriginal communities are there in the riding of Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786777"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394947">I do not have any reserves in my riding. There is one urban reserve, which is actually a business. I have a large urban aboriginal population in my riding, perhaps the largest in Saskatoon.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786784"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394948">Did you meet with anyone from the Prime Minister's Office in preparing Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document>?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786785"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394949">No, I did not.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786789"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394950">Did you meet with anyone from the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development's office before introducing Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document>?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786790"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394951">Certainly in conversation with my colleagues, I spoke with members of this committee in terms of whether or not this was an--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786797"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394952">Forgive me for interrupting. I mean the office of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Did you meet with anyone from the minister's office, such as a deputy minister or a regional director? I do not mean with anyone on the committee.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786803"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394953">No, I did not meet with the regional director or the deputy minister. I did talk with staff regarding how I would go about introducing a bill of this nature.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786813"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394954">Did you meet with anyone from the Auditor General of Canada's office before preparing Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document>?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786814"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394955">No, I did not.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786815"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394956">Did you read the Auditor General's 2002 report on accountability in aboriginal communities?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786823"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394957">No, I did not.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786824"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394958">Do you know how many reports an aboriginal community or a reserve has to produce for Indian and Northern Affairs Canada on an annual basis?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="10" Mn="00">(1000)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786826"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394959">Yes, I do. I believe what I have heard quoted is that approximately 168 reports are submitted to INAC.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786830"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394960">Are you aware that, regardless of whether there are 2,000 or 50,000 people in the community, it still has to submit 168 reports to various government agencies?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786837"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394961">Yes, I'm aware that these reports are submitted annually.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786848"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394962">Are you aware that aboriginal communities have to include information on the salaries paid to chiefs and councillors in some of those 168 reports? That information is in those reports. Did you know that?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786849"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394963">Mr. Chair, I am very aware that first nations provide a schedule of remuneration and expenses to INAC as required by their funding agreements. However, what my bill is addressing is the call for this information to be publicly disclosed.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786862"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394964">Forgive me, but do you know that those reports are available to the public if you request them under the Access to Information Act?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786864"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394965">I have been made aware that individuals can request this information through an access to information request. However, I'm also aware that much of the information is redacted.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786868"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394966">How do you think an aboriginal community of 2,000 people can possibly meet the requirements in your bill, especially clauses 4, 5 and 6, when it cannot even get computer access? You are asking aboriginal communities to perform accounting exercises in accordance with the principles of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394967">You should speak with the parliamentary secretary. The communities in his riding are so remote that they do not even have access to high-speed Internet or anything else, so they cannot prepare reports. What's more, their reports are often late.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394968">How do you think those communities will be able to meet the requirements in clauses 4, 5 and 6 of your bill, in the unfortunate event it is passed?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786888"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394969">Mr. Chair, in the development of this bill I consulted with the House of Commons legal counsel. These sections ask no more of a first nations chief and council than is already being asked within current legislation.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786896"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394970">Do I understand correctly that clause 3 of your bill requires aboriginal communities to disclose the remuneration paid to chiefs and councillors, if it is drawn from federal money?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786899"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394971">That's right. This bill will require that of first nations chiefs and councils subject to the Indian Act.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786900"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394972">Ms. Block, are you aware that, in most cases, those who earn $200,000 to $250,000, or even more, are not paid using federal money?</ParaText><ParaText id="2394973">How will that information be obtained?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786904"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394974">Mr. Chair, when I introduced this bill I made it clear in any conversations that I had regarding the bill that this is not about what a first nations chief and council determine they will set for themselves. It's not about the numbers. They absolutely have the right to set their own levels of remuneration, and this bill doesn't question that right. It simply calls for them to publicly disclose this information to their membership.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786910"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394975">Twenty seconds, Mr. Lemay.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786911"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="161216" Type="47">Mr. Marc Lemay</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394976">Oh. No, I'm done.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="3786912" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394977">Very well. Thank you, Mr. Lemay.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394978">It is now over to Ms. Crowder.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786913"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394979">Thank you, Ms. Block, for coming before the committee.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394980">You're probably aware that when legislation that impacts on first nations, Métis, and Inuit comes before this committee, one of the questions that we always ask is about the duty to consult. Now we have another example of a piece of legislation coming before this committee for which the duty to consult that's been mandated by the Supreme Court of Canada has not been fulfilled. I think that arguably most people are in support of accountability and transparency, but we can't disregard a process when it is a consistent message that we put out, so it's troubling that once again we're dealing with a piece of legislation that has not fulfilled that duty.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394981">In our looking at the bill, a number of issues have arisen. I know a number of us have consistently said that it's important for chiefs and councils to be responsible to the people who elect them and not to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. I don't think you'll find broad disagreement on that. Here, though, it appears that you're requesting a standard that's different from what other Canadians are subject to, and I want to refer to a couple of points before I get you to respond.</ParaText><ParaText id="2394982">You're asking for federally funded dollars, and a significant amount of those dollars comes in through grants and contribution agreements. I don't know if you're aware that Treasury Board guidelines on contribution agreements, under appendix C, make no mention of salaries, even with respect to people who act as third parties to transfer money to other people. The guidelines just have a lot about audit requirements. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394983">What I hear you saying about this bill is that all the other Canadians who get grants or contribution agreements don't need to release their salaries, but first nations do, so you're setting up another double standard here. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394984">We're fairly used to that. First nations are governed by double standards all over the place, whether it's funding on reserves for child welfare, education, health care, or clean drinking water. We consistently say that it's perfectly acceptable for first nations to be treated as second-class citizens. Once again, I see you implementing a double standard by requiring something from them that we don't ask for other people on grants and contributions. That's one aspect of it. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394985">The second aspect is that you've included under clause 6:</ParaText><ParaText id="2394986"><Quote><QuotePara Align="Left" IndentFirst="2" IndentRest="2">Despite anything in the Privacy Act, where, at the end of the period referred to in subsection 5(3), the Schedule of Remuneration has not been made publicly available, the Minister shall make it publicly available.</QuotePara></Quote>
							</ParaText><ParaText id="2394987">The way I read this—and it will be interesting to hear from some lawyers on it—is that all other Canadians are subject to the Privacy Act, but we're going to override the Privacy Act in the case of first nations. We're not going to have it apply to them, because somehow or other they're a different class of citizen. This is another example of saying first nations don't deserve the same treatment as other Canadians and that we're going to allow the government to override the Privacy Act in this case. </ParaText><ParaText id="2394988">I wonder if you could explain to me and to other Canadians who may be listening why it's okay to treat first nations differently from other people in this country.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="10" Mn="05">(1005)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786980"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394989">I don't agree with the premise of your question at all. This is not about asking for something more from first nations chiefs and councils in regard to their remuneration and salaries than we ask from other elected officials, including municipal leaders, provincial leaders, and federal leaders. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786985"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394990">Excuse me, Mrs. Block, I would like you to address the contribution agreement and the Privacy Act. My question was specifically to you. I want you talk about the contribution agreements under appendix C of the Treasury Board guidelines and the privacy legislation that's currently in place. Those are my two questions for you.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786991"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394991">By introducing this bill, I am creating a piece of legislation that will call for first nations chiefs and councils to publicly disclose their remuneration and salaries. They will be given 120 days after the close of their fiscal year, at which time the minister will be allowed to post it on the INAC website.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3786996"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394992">That is not my question to you, Mrs. Block. I want you to explain the privacy legislation. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787002"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394993">I didn't come here to explain the privacy legislation.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787003"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394994">But it's in your bill. It's under clause 6 of your bill. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787004"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394995">I came here to talk about—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787007"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394996">But then why did you include it in your bill?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787008"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394997">—the introduction of this private member's bill, which I believe is a good bill for all first nations community members, many of whom have been calling for this legislation.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787009"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162301" Type="40">Ms. Jean Crowder</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394998">That's the end of my questions.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787010"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2394999">Thank you, Ms. Crowder.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395000">We'll go to Mr. Payne.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787011"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne (Medicine Hat, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395001">Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome, Mrs. Block, to our committee.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395002"> This is an important bill that you're bringing forward. I know that we've heard from a number of band members, particularly from Nova Scotia, who want to see transparency and good governance. I believe I heard you say that you had some emails and letters from band members. I'm wondering if you could expand on anything that you've already told us about what these band members want to see from their first nations chiefs and councils.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="10" Mn="10">(1010)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787054"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395003">Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395004">As I mentioned in my opening remarks and in my responses to some of the members who have already asked questions, I understood that trying to access this information was a long-standing issue for many first nations' community members.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395005">Since I've introduced Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document>, I have had numerous emails, letters, and conversations with first nations community members telling me of their concerns regarding the issue in their own communities. I have kept from commenting on specific first nations and the issues that are particular to their communities, but they were simply saying they need to have access to this information so they can hold their leaders accountable when the time comes for them to be re-elected.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787074"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395006">Thank you.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395007">Mr. Chair, if I have time, I will split it with Mr. Clarke. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787076"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395008">Sure, by all means.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787083"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395009">Okay, thank you </ParaText><ParaText id="2395010">There was another interesting thing in terms of the vote that occurred to bring this forward to committee. I noticed there were quite a number of Liberal members who supported the bill, and I wondered if you had any comments in regard to that?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787085"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395011">Thank you very much. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395012">As I said, I believe this is a very important issue. It is an issue that I believed would have received almost unanimous support from members of Parliament to ensure that aboriginal Canadians would have the same access to this kind of information that other Canadians do.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395013">I was grateful for the 15 members from the Liberal caucus who stood with the Conservative caucus and voted in favour of sending this bill to committee. I am extremely disappointed, however, that the majority of the opposition voted against transparency and accountability on first nations reserves.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787119"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395014"> I understand, certainly, and maybe you could--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787120"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395015">Go ahead.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787125"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395016">Oh, thank you. I didn't know if Mr. Lemay was going to make some comments.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395017">I understand, and maybe you could expound on why the legislation requires first nation governments to disclose remuneration and expenses for chiefs and councils. Do you have any further comments you'd like to make regarding that? </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787129"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395018">Currently this information is submitted to INAC, but it does not have to be publicly disclosed to the members or other Canadians, and that is why I introduced this bill. It was in response to calls from first nation community members who were trying to gain access to this information.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787137"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395019">How will the schedule of remuneration be made publicly available?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787140"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395020">First nations community leaders will have the opportunity to post this information on their community websites if they have a website. They could distribute it in hard-copy form to all community households or post it in a readily accessible place, such as a band office, so community members could see it.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787144"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395021">Okay.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395022">Will the implementation of this legislation increase the reporting burden on first nations?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787150"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395023">It will absolutely not. As was mentioned by members opposite and in my response to some of those questions, this information is already collected, audited, and submitted. This bill simply seeks to make it public for members of first nations communities and other Canadians.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787159"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395024">Okay.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395025">It's been suggested that Bill C-575 does nothing to enhance the financial accountability relationship between the government and first nations. What measures is the government taking to tackle this part of the accountability bargain?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787163"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395026">What I will say is that this is a straightforward bill that was introduced to enhance the accountability and transparency of first nations elected officials to their members and other Canadians. I know there are funding agreements between the government and first nations that clearly articulate the financial accountabilities between them, and that these agreements contain dual accountability requirements.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="10" Mn="15">(1015)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787179"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395027">Okay. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395028">It's also been suggested that Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document> is simply detracting from the mechanism of the government in assisting first nations to become self-sustaining and that it implies all chiefs are corrupt. I wonder if you could give us your comments on that and your thoughts on the bill. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787189"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395029">Absolutely. Again, I think I addressed this in my opening statement.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395030"> I believe that there is nothing further from the truth. Some first nations chiefs and councils have pointed out that they should not all be painted with the same brush, and I agree with that. By publicly disclosing this information, first nations chiefs and councils will demonstrate their commitment to transparency and accountability and dispel this criticism.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787205"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158842" Type="47">Mr. LaVar Payne</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395031">I did give a speech in the House on this particular bill. I'm very positive on it and I believe in what the bill is trying to do. I understand that you have support for this bill from one of the chiefs and have made it public. Could you comment on that for me, please?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787213"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395032">I will.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395033">As I've mentioned in my statements during the debate, there is strong support for Bill <Document DbId="4664580" Type="4">C-575</Document>. First nations communities and Canadians from all across the country have been expressing support for this bill. I was very pleased that Chief Darcy Bear from Whitecap Dakota First Nation endorsed my bill very strongly.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787218"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395034">Thank you very much, Mr. Payne.</ParaText>
							<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><ParaText id="2395035">We have time for just two questions of three minutes each.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395036">First is Ms. Neville.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787227"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159397" Type="47">Hon. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395037">Thank you, Mr. Chair.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395038">Thank you again for being here, Ms. Block.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395039">Let me just say at the outset that I take great exception to your characterizing those who did not support this bill coming to committee as being opposed to transparency. I speak for myself as one who sat for days, 24 hours around the clock, to deal with Bill <Document DbId="514757" Type="3">C-7</Document> in 2002, which dealt with many of the issues related to transparency, and as one who advocated very strongly for the Kelowna accord, which very much advocated and had the tools and the infrastructure and had followed the processes of consultation that many of us value in developing legislation related to aboriginal people.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395040">What I am most concerned about is how you reconcile this bill calling for transparency with your own government's unwillingness or inability or blockage of transparency of many other issues that are coming before this House. I just find the hypocrisy of it breathtaking.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787241"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395041">Well, Mr. Chair, I have made it very clear that as a member of Parliament I strongly believe in the principles of transparency and accountability. I live by those principles, and that is the very reason I chose to bring forward this issue in the form of a private member's bill.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395042"> Again, I became aware that it was an issue--</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787253"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159397" Type="47">Hon. Anita Neville</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395043">You're not answering my question, though. How do you reconcile this bill with the blockage of information by, and the lack of transparency of, your own government on so many of the issues that members of Parliament are requesting information on?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787263"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395044">I don't believe the purpose in my being here today is to reconcile this bill to anything but the need to respond to the call from first nations community members for the same transparency and accountability that other Canadians receive from their elected officials in the area of public disclosure when it comes to their remuneration and salaries.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787277"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="159397" Type="47">Hon. Anita Neville</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395045">I find that I'm repeating myself, but I find the lack of consistency and your unwillingness to address the real issues facing this Parliament right now quite stunning.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395046">But thank you.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787282"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395047">Thank you, Ms. Neville.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395048">And the last question goes to Mr. Clarke, for three minutes.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="10" Mn="20">(1020)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787283"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158845" Type="47">Mr. Rob Clarke (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395049">Thanks, Mr. Chair.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395050">I'd like to thank Ms. Block for coming to the committee today.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395051">We had a lot of discussion and debate on this very bill when you brought it forward and were just asking for some of my input.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395052"> Just as some background, having lived and worked on over 11 reserves in Saskatchewan, I've seen the membership--not the chiefs and councils, but the band membership--wanting to see the books and being turned down in all forms and aspects, and then being punished because they were making those requests.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395053"> Just seeing your bill and how it takes into consideration the membership.... There are some good reserves out there that are transparent and that are accountable, and they should be complimented for doing that, but there are those out there that will not open their books. It doesn't matter if people go to the reserve during the band meetings; the chief and council will not let them open the books. I've had to do investigations on improper bookkeeping. At times, yes, there have been fraud charges laid. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395054">My first question is this: why should first nations be forced to publicly disclose remuneration and expenses of their elected chiefs and councils? As well, is this an invasion of privacy?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787323"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395055">I would like to start by recognizing the member, who I feel very privileged to have as a colleague in the Conservative caucus. He is the only first nations member of Parliament currently sitting in the House of Commons. He is also a colleague of mine from Saskatchewan. He is very correct when he mentions that I bent his ear quite a bit when looking at developing this bill. I got a sense of what was happening in Saskatchewan from him, for sure. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395056">He represents two-thirds of the province in geography, and the majority of the first nations communities. He's doing a great job in his role as a member of Parliament representing those communities.</ParaText><ParaText id="2395057"> I've kind of lost track of your question, Mr. Clarke. What did you ask?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787340"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158845" Type="47">Mr. Rob Clarke</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395058">I asked if it's an invasion of privacy.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787343"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="158828" Type="2">Mrs. Kelly Block</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395059">Absolutely not. This is information that is publicly disclosed by other levels of government, whether they are municipal, provincial, or federal. It is simply calling upon first nations governments to reveal to their members and other Canadians the salaries and remuneration they are deriving from public funds.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="3787348"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="162300" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="2395060">Thank you very much, Mr. Clarke, and Ms. Block as well. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395061">We'll be looking at the schedule for arranging for witnesses on this bill in the weeks ahead. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395062">Thank you very much. We hope we didn't take you too long over the time that was required. </ParaText><ParaText id="2395063">Thank you very much, members. We'll be in camera for the committee business segment. </ParaText>
							<ParaText id="2395064">[<I>Proceedings continue in camera</I>]</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
				</SubjectOfBusinessContent></SubjectOfBusiness></OrderOfBusiness></HansardBody></Hansard>
