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		<DocumentName>EVIDENCE</DocumentName>
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		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebate">Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Number">NUMBER 061</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Session">1st SESSION</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Parliament">39th PARLIAMENT</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Date">Tuesday, June 5, 2007</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="DateOtherLang">Le mardi 5 juin 2007</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Institution">Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Country">CANADA</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="RecordingNote">[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="HeaderTitle">EVIDENCE</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="HeaderDate">June 5, 2007</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDocumentCategory">Committee</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitle">Edited Evidence * Table of Contents * Number 061 (Official Version)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleEn">Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 061 (Official Version)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaTitleFr">Témoignages * Table des matières * Numéro 061 (Version officielle)</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaNumberNumber">61</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumDay">05</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumMonth">06</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaDateNumYear">2007</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaCreationTime">2007/06/05 09:05:00</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="MetaInstitution">House of Commons</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateFr">Comité permanent des affaires étrangères et du développement international</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InstitutionDebateEn">Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="Acronyme">FAAE</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerTitle">Chair</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SpeakerName">Mr. Kevin Sorenson</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="ParliamentNumber">39</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="SessionNumber">1</ExtractedItem>
		<ExtractedItem Name="InCameraNote">PUBLIC PART ONLY - PARTIE PUBLIQUE SEULEMENT</ExtractedItem></ExtractedInformation>
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		<OrderOfBusiness><CatchLine></CatchLine><SubjectOfBusiness><SubjectOfBusinessContent><Timestamp Hr="10" Mn="50">(1050)</Timestamp><FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="2124426" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair (Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, CPC))</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693462">I call this meeting back to order. </ParaText><ParaText id="693463">This is meeting number 61 on Tuesday, June 5, of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. </ParaText><ParaText id="693464">We are moving into committee business. We have three things we want to deal with today, quickly. We have Mr. Goldring's motion, Madam McDonough's motion, and the format for allocation of questioning in tomorrow's joint meeting. </ParaText><ParaText id="693465">You have a copy of that in front of you. Do we have a consensus that we can accept this? This is the 10-minute rounds—the Liberal, Bloc, New Democratic Party, and then the Conservatives. It's changing it. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="2124444" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="106184" Type="47">Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh (Vancouver South, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693466">First of all, I am—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124445"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693467">I should say that our two clerks have worked this out. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124446"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="106184" Type="47">Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693468">No, I appreciate that. I understand that the defence committee was seeking only three ministers and we were seeking three or four, and now we have five ministers coming, with seven minutes each for statements. That's what it says. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124483"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693469">No. Madam <Affiliation DbId="105841" Type="5">Guergis </Affiliation>isn't speaking. </ParaText><ParaText id="693470">We have four ministers, and one minister, Minister Guergis, has asked to come with no presentation. So we have our four. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124487"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="106184" Type="47">Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693471">So you have four ministers coming with—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124488"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693472">Seven-minute presentations. </ParaText><ParaText id="693473">I have told them that they're going to keep this down. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124489"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="106184" Type="47">Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693474">I have a concern. You're going to have two committees. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="2126933" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102204" Type="47">Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693475">I have a point of order. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2126938"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693476">Just wait. He's on a point of order. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2126940"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="106184" Type="47">Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693477">Let me just say...if you want to go first, I'm fine.</ParaText><ParaText id="693478"> My view is that ministers belong to the government. They can work out one statement. They can take 10 to 15 minutes making that statement. Whoever can read that statement, that's fine. I don't believe we need to hear from three or four or five ministers, however many are here, because that simply consumes too much time and leaves very little time to ask questions. </ParaText><ParaText id="693479">And then in terms of the questions, all of them are going to want to respond from their perspective, and that's going to eat a lot more time. </ParaText><ParaText id="693480">My view is that we should urge the ministers to come with one statement that they can agree upon among themselves. It can be 15 minutes long; it doesn't have to be seven or 10 minutes. And then in terms of the questioning, I'm fine with the arrangement that's been proposed. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124523"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693481">All right. Thank you. </ParaText><ParaText id="693482">As far as this goes, Mr. Dosanjh's problem is with the presentation. </ParaText><ParaText id="693483">Mr. Obhrai, on the point of order. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124528"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102204" Type="47">Mr. Deepak Obhrai</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693484">Mr. Chair, as much as I do appreciate what Mr. Dosanjh has said, the fact of the matter is that all of these are opposition motions that have asked for the ministers to appear at one time or another, to come and talk. And because it is written like this here, now suddenly for you to come along and say we don't want these ministers to do this, and we want one minister.... That should have been in the first motion that was done. </ParaText><ParaText id="693485">What the government is addressing here is all the motions that were put forward to call in all the ministers, and they have the right to make statements because these motions specifically deal with that. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124551"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693486">All right. Very quickly. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124552"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="106184" Type="47">Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693487">If I may, rather than going back and forth here, I don't recall the Liberal Party asking for Verner or Guergis to come to this committee to say anything. </ParaText><ParaText id="693488">So if you want to load up, as government, with five ministers and take up all the time with different statements and all of the five responses to each question, we might as well go home. </ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124558"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693489">You're right. I agree with that. </ParaText><ParaText id="693490">But I'll tell you what. We have invited the four ministers. The four ministers are coming, and the minister has the prerogative to bring someone else along. </ParaText><ParaText id="693491">I have asked that those four ministers give a very brief presentation. I guess I didn't ask that. It was just understood that this is what normally happens. When you have two ministers, they each give a presentation. We have four. I'm not going to have 10-minute or 15-minute presentations. They have been told that if they're going to do four, they're going to be very short and precise. I can talk to them today and try to get that down a little bit more. </ParaText><ParaText id="693492">We have another committee meeting after this, and there are two motions that we have to discuss. I'm willing to go to Madame Lalonde. </ParaText><ParaText id="693493">I understand the problem here. I understand what an opposition member would be feeling. The opposition would be saying, are you just loading up so we can hear great, wonderful speeches from the government? I have asked them not to do that, to keep those presentations very concise and allow questions. </ParaText><ParaText id="693494">And in fact what we will do, because time might be of the essence—we have a vote—is not go Liberal, Bloc, Conservative, but go Liberal, Bloc, NDP, Conservative. If we run out of time, I want the opposition to get their time. </ParaText><ParaText id="693495"><B>An hon. member:</B> Did you tell them a time?</ParaText><ParaText id="693496"><B>The Chair:</B> They were going to come with 10 minutes, and I said, listen, it's not going to be over seven. I can try to tell them to cut that back even more. </ParaText><ParaText id="693497">But I understand the frustrations of seeing five people sitting there. It's my understanding that they will not all be presenting, but they may be here. </ParaText><ParaText id="693498"><B>An hon. member:</B> Let's go to the motions.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="10" Mn="55">(1055)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="2124604" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="99512" Type="40">Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693499">If you want a unanimous motion, that you're entitled to ask them to speak for a maximum of seven minutes—That way, they'll know right away.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124605"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693500"> I will cut them off, then, if that's understood. Are we all right with that?</ParaText><ParaText id="693501">They've probably already been translated. I told them, not 10 minutes, I want them at seven minutes.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124614"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="106183" Type="47">Mr. Wajid Khan (Mississauga—Streetsville, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693502">On a point of order, Mr. Chair, we have committee business to attend to. I think we should get to that rather than argue back and forth on this.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124615"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693503">This is for a meeting tomorrow. I definitely want to get to the motions.</ParaText><ParaText id="693504">Madame Lalonde.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="FR">[<I>Translation</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="2124620"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="100269" Type="40">Ms. Francine Lalonde (La Pointe-de-l'Île, BQ)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693505">Mr. Chairman, Mr. Dosanjh's motion is important because there has been a considerable outrage, and justifiably so, over the issue of torture. </ParaText><ParaText id="693506">They are coming here to provide some answers, but we know there is virtually nothing new to report. The answers we received in the House of Commons showed that they had not learned anything new. Even if they had two hours, they would still give the same responses. This is nothing more than political grandstanding. Apparently, they refused to adopt my motion to invite the authors of the secret report to testify before the committee. We do not have the unaltered report produced by the commission under the Access to Information Act. Some details have been blacked out. Surely we are not about to give them this much time to come here and repeat the same things, when we know they are not true.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<FloorLanguage language="EN">[<I>English</I>]</FloorLanguage><Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124631"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693507">All right. Thank you. I will try to make sure that isn't it.</ParaText><ParaText id="693508">Okay, so we're all right on that format, and I will tell them to cut that back. We'll try our best, and I will try my best, to make sure the opposition gets the time to question these ministers.</ParaText><ParaText id="693509">We're going to move into committee business.</ParaText><ParaText id="693510">Mr. Goldring, would you speak to your motion?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="2124634" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102203" Type="47">Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, CPC)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693511">Yes. The motion is in the agenda. I hope you've had a chance to read it.</ParaText><ParaText id="693512"> There's an additional circumstance that I'd like to say. Where it says in here that it's in relation to our study of Afghanistan, I think it also fits in very well, rationally, with our study on democratic development. The two of them go hand in hand, and I think there's an important reason for us to visit Afghanistan, to substantiate what we've studying and learning.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124642"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693513">Mr. Goldring, I think that is something that, when I go to the Liaison Committee, I definitely will be bringing out as well. First of all, our committee has been asked to go to study Afghanistan. As to this motion, it's very important that it gets either accepted or denied today, because if this place shuts down, I have to get this to the Liaison Committee and this probably wouldn't take place until next fall.</ParaText><ParaText id="693514">Is there anyone else on this?</ParaText><ParaText id="693515">Very quickly, Madam McDonough.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" id="2124649" ToCText=""><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="99619" Type="47">Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP)</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693516">I'm substantially in agreement. If we all were in agreement with making the amendment to refer to democratic development as well, maybe that would strengthen it.</ParaText><ParaText id="693517">But let me also say I assume we then will have more input around what we're actually going to do in terms of who we're going to see and who we're going to talk to, because I want to see that if we're serious about democratic development, we deal with the horrors and the nightmare of what has happened to Malalai Joya. I mean, we're either a great democracy or we're not.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124655"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693518">I would just state this. There is a concern. There's a place here where I'm saying we should just make reference at Liaison Committee.</ParaText><ParaText id="693519"> This travel may not take place until October. It may not take place until way into the fall. To go now, we probably would not see much different from what we know. But later on, when it's not 45 degrees, for example, we might be able to learn more and even see more.</ParaText><ParaText id="693520">Are we in favour, in principle, of Mr. Goldring's motion, without cutting off debate?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Timestamp Hr="11" Mn="00">(1100)</Timestamp><Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2127128"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="99619" Type="2">Ms. Alexa McDonough</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693521">Including the democratic development?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2127134"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693522">Including whatever you want in there.</ParaText><ParaText id="693523">(Motion agreed to [See <I>Minutes of Proceedings</I>])</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2127142"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693524">Madam McDonough, I don't know what we're going to do here. We have another committee waiting. Can we wait until Thursday on yours?</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124674"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="99619" Type="47">Ms. Alexa McDonough</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693525">Well, the problem is that we won't deal with it on Thursday. Right? We're having the ministers—</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Interjection" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2124675"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693526">No, on Wednesday we'll have the ministers. On Thursday we'll have committee, for sure, and you will be first up.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2127185"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="99619" Type="2">Ms. Alexa McDonough</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693527">All right, I agree with that too.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
					<Intervention Type="Debate" ToC="No" ToCText="" id="2127194"><PersonSpeaking><Affiliation DbId="102593" Type="35">The Chair</Affiliation>: </PersonSpeaking><Content><ParaText id="693528">I want to thank you specifically for that. You've been waiting on this one for a while.</ParaText><ParaText id="693529">We've done our process. So that's for tomorrow, Wednesday, from 3:30 until 5:30.</ParaText><ParaText id="693530">The meeting is adjourned.</ParaText></Content></Intervention>
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