SPER Committee Meeting

38th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Subcommittee on the Status of Persons with Disabilities of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills Development, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, May 18, 2005

The Chair (Mr. Ken Boshcoff (Thunder Bay—Rainy River, Lib.))

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff (Director, Programming, Easter Seals/March of Dimes National Council)

Ms. Linda McGreevy (Director, Fund Development, Canadian Paraplegic Association)

The Chair

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Leesa Kopansky (Representative, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada)

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Leesa Kopansky

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Ms. Leesa Kopansky

The Chair

Mrs. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, CPC)

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Leesa Kopansky

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Leesa Kopansky

Mrs. Carol Skelton

The Chair

Mr. Robert Vincent (Shefford, BQ)

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

The Chair

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

The Chair

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

The Chair

Ms. Leesa Kopansky

The Chair

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

The Chair

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

The Chair

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Linda McGreevy

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mrs. Carol Skelton

The Chair

Mr. Robert Vincent

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Mr. Robert Vincent

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

Ms. Linda McGreevy

The Chair

Mrs. Carol Skelton

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

The Chair

Ms. Linda McGreevy

The Chair

Ms. Linda McGreevy

The Chair

Ms. Linda McGreevy

The Chair

Ms. Vanessa Pfaff

The Chair

CANADA

EVIDENCE

Wednesday, May 18, 2005

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Ken Boshcoff (Thunder Bay—Rainy River, Lib.)): Welcome. I call this meeting to order.

    I'd like to welcome our witnesses. Thank you for coming. We understand there was a little bit shorter notice than normal given, but we're very glad to have you here. We would very much look forward to your presentation, so please go ahead.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff (Director, Programming, Easter Seals/March of Dimes National Council): Thank you.

    My name is Vanessa Pfaff. I'm here with Easter Seals. I'm here to tell you a little bit about a program called Access 2 Entertainment. It is a program we started developing about a year and a half ago.

    Famous Players recognized that they needed to revise their policy on attendants, and they approached the Canadian Paraplegic Association for some help in revising it. They also wanted to build some goodwill with the community of people with disabilities, so they wanted to develop some kind of entertainment card. When they got to CPA, CPA was aware of Easter Seals' history with the Disability Travel Card--we've managed that for about a decade--so they suggested that Famous Players come to us.

    Together, we put together a team of national disability organizations--there were nine at the table representing cross-disabilities--and went about the business of developing a policy and a mechanism, something that was acceptable to everybody at the table and that of course met the challenges of corporate Canada. We came up with the Access 2 Entertainment program. It's a nationwide program, which I'll speak to about in a little more detail.

    I will run off the list of partners we have. Along with Famous Players, Cineplex Galaxy Cinemas was also at the table. We have the Canadian Abilities Foundation, the Canadian Association of the Deaf, the Canadian Association of Independent Living Centres, the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association, the Canadian Paraplegic Association, Easter Seals/March of Dimes National Council--and we are the managing partner in this group--the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada, the National Federation of the Blind, Advocates for Equality, and People First of Canada.

    As well as providing a direct service to people with disabilities, the benefits really have been tremendous. I think it's safe to say that we are very, very pleased with the outcome. We were a little cautious in the beginning because all of us had never sat at the table together before, especially with business, so we were a little bit unsure about what the process would be. It turned out to be just magnificent.

    So we are, as I said, providing a direct service, but not only that, we're obviously sharing knowledge. We're increasing the capacity of all the groups at the table, all the disability organizations, and because they're national, the knowledge transfers to their provincial chapters. We're creating, I think, significant disability awareness within the motion picture association. We've also provided opportunity for disability awareness training for the people who are staffing the card itself, because along with providing the service, there are a lot of queries from people in the community itself, which vary in complexity, so that has been an opportunity for us as well.

    Now let me talk to you about the card itself and the process of how it all works. I've just brought a few samples of the cards. Because they are personalized, and you need ID to obtain one, I can't leave them with you, but this is an idea of the card itself. It has the logos of all the organizations that developed the card.

    The card allows people with a disability to receive a free admission or a significant discount for their support person at member movie theatres across the country. Most theatres have signed on. There are still a few independent theatres that haven't signed on yet, but we're working at getting them to sign on. The program was developed by this group together.

    In your package you will see that there are specific qualifications you need to be eligible to receive this card. They are outlined in there; I won't go through the details. You need to have it authorized by a care provider as defined in this application. These criteria were established by the group at the table, for many reasons--accessibility and to ensure inclusion, but also to make sure that we could maintain control so that fraud wouldn't be associated with this program. That was the thinking behind this.

    The application forms are available online. We have a web address--access2.ca. They are also available through all the provincial chapters of the disability partners. They are available at every theatre.

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    We publicized this. We announced it December 3, on the International Day of Disabled Persons. We announced it then, and we sent out a press release, a nation-wide release. We also sent out another release when the card was active, which was March 1, and then of course we've advertised it on everybody's websites.

    In terms of the card and the number of activities generated, it has been a bit overwhelming. When we first put it together we thought it was a good idea, but we were a little bit surprised at the level of attention it's received. Since March 1, we have about 4,000 cards out there. We have about another 2,000 in backlog that we're scrambling to get out the door. We receive an average of 75 applications a day, and it's growing. The phones are ringing off the hook and the e-mails are going crazy.

    When I first put the plan together, we looked at having one part-time staff person come in maybe one day a week. Now we're at two full-time staff. It's a little crazy, but it's great. It's a good problem to have. We're pleased.

    Now, in terms of the cost, it is about $150,000 to $200,000 for direct costs, that's material supplies and staff, and that's mostly funded by the private sector. A large portion is Famous Players.

    In terms of the work of the committee, the advisory council, initially a lot of that was funded by Famous Players. We also received some funding from the Office for Disability Issues to support that work. We have just recently been awarded a small grant by a public health agency to continue the work of the group itself, so we can continue to support this program but also look at new ways of working together.

    One of our mandates for the second phase of the card is to expand the reach of the card and to include cultural and leisure venues across the country. So we want to expand that. We're also bringing a multicultural element to it, so we'll be doing outreach to the multicultural community, people with disabilities, in terms of including them in the advisory council and making sure that services are reflected.

    We're also looking to the federal government. We would like to see this card honoured at every facility that has an admission associated, so we'll be doing a lot of work in that area as well.

    I think at this point I will turn it over to my colleague, Linda McGreevy, who's here with CPA, who will speak to the benefits of the partnership and how that process works.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy (Director, Fund Development, Canadian Paraplegic Association): Thanks very much.

    Thanks for inviting us. We appreciate it. It's nice being home here. I spent 12 years in the West Block, as an assistant to members of Parliament back in the seventies and early eighties. I'm aging myself a lot, but it's nice to come home for a while.

    The Chair: How could you have started work when you were three?

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Child labour, you know--no rules back then.

    I wear a couple of hats at the Canadian Paraplegic Association. This is a national office for the Canadian Paraplegic Association. I just want to speak briefly about our involvement specifically and how the coalition has been a great benefit to us.

    This is the 60th anniversary of the Canadian Paraplegic Association. We were born through the war vets. During the war, the veterans came home, and, as you all know from history, for those of you who are too young to remember, they came home without their limbs. We were born from that experience. A little bit of history is that on May 10, 1945, Paul Martin Sr. signed our charter. So that's a little bit of fund history for you.

    The Canadian Paraplegic Association has something we're using this year on our 60th anniversary called “no limits”--no limits meaning there should be no limits, no barriers, for anybody with a disability, whether it's a physical disability, whether it's somebody who is hearing impaired, or someone who's blind. The coalition has opened up a whole world to people at the Canadian Paraplegic Association, and although my real hat is the director of national fundraising, I have gotten involved in the advocacy side through Famous Players.

    The coalition is also...and we're not really using it, but what do we call ourselves? The advisory--

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    Ms. Leesa Kopansky (Representative, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada): The National Advisory Group of Disability Organizations.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Thank you.

    Ms. Leesa Kopansky: We thought “coalition” was too political.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Too political in a good way.

    The coalition and our advisory group also recognize that government likes like organizations to get together and solve problems. We hear that when we go for funding through the federal government. We hear that even now with corporate Canada. They say, get together, come to us, and let's see if we can share your problems or your issues and let's see if we can help you solve them; if that means putting money behind it, that's great.

    One thing we have found that has been really wonderful is having this advisory group and hearing from other disability groups, many of which have the same issues. I look at the Canadian Paraplegic Association and I look at Leesa from the Multiple Sclerosis Society, and our issues are very much the same. The barriers are very much the same. They want no limits, and people with disabilities want to be able to do the very same things that every one of us can do. This is why the advisory group is moving forward now in such a very positive way. This has become a springboard—this absolutely is a springboard—for all sorts of opportunities with other venues, as Vanessa has mentioned to you.

    What else am I to cover off? Have I covered this off pretty well?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Is there anything you want to add about the process, what you thought the process was about? Did you want to speak to that at all?

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Right. The process had little bumps along the way, which is always the way when you get a group of people together. But I think we worked extremely well together. We have realized that very simple things such as dealing with who's a member and who's not a member.... For something as simple as who was eligible for the card, we wanted to make sure we didn't sabotage the whole experience by not having the entertainment community involved.

    Famous Players played a very key role in helping us, as did Cineplex Galaxy, and other theatres as well. Hearing their issues and why we ended up where we were in the beginning.... Why did we end up at the table together? Why were we going through this exercise? At the end of the day, it turned out to be a very positive one, and a very good learning curve for them too, I think. I think they learned a lot from us.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Without a doubt.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: I'm really excited.

    I'm going to stay at the table with this group, even though we now have a director of advocacy from the Canadian Paraplegic Association, because I'm really excited about the next steps and moving forward.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: I'd like to introduce Leesa Kopanski, who is representing the MS Society of Canada, and she will speak to her role on the council and what it has meant to her.

    Ms. Leesa Kopansky: Thank you very much for inviting me.

    I was thrilled to be asked to be a member of this national advisory group. I was thrilled to know that someone was listening to me as a person with a disability, that someone was listening to my needs, and that someone was listening to the fact that, yes, I like to see movies, and now I can afford to see a film with this amazing card.

    I would say that when I was approached, it began at the grassroots level. We included an array or a mixture of disability groups. It was a learning experience for all of us, but we were all working towards one thing, and that's inclusion and the ability to have the necessities, the simple enjoyment of life, such as going to a film and partaking in social activities, etc.

    When Famous Players, i.e. the corporate world, approached me to sit down and talk with them, they actually were listening to what I was saying and reacting to my input about things I had experienced and barriers I had encountered; they actually were working with our comments and suggestions for developing policy. That was a huge, amazing thing. Again, someone was listening to me as a member of a minority population, specifically the largest minority population in Canada of over four million Canadians, all of whom share the same desires to partake in society in an equal way, and not to have to jump through hoops of fire to get to see a movie.

    Again, it was thrilling, as has been the explosion of this card. The need for it is fantastic. The fact that we're working towards expanding this into a broader horizon in the entertainment world, and in fact in a wider scope beyond, I was just thrilled to be sitting at the table with these business colleagues who were listening and wanting to contribute.

    Let's not be unrealistic; there is a business case to this too, right? To be seen as someone who is a part of society and contributing in some way, it just means the world. I can speak for myself, but I'm sure I'm also speaking for a lot people sitting at this table.

    Thank you.

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    The Chair: We have some questions, if you're willing.

    Ms. Skelton, please.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, CPC): First of all, Leesa, I'd like to comment that I really hope the next time you come to appear before us, your scooter will be able to fit under the table; our tables aren't all the right size. I want to apologize for your not being able to do that.

    I want to thank each and every one of you for coming today. You don't know how much this means to our committee—it really does. I know the three of us here today really appreciate it.

    I have one question on administration. You're getting your money from a public health department?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: They're paying for the work to continue with the advisory group, but the actual operation and administration of this card is private sector—which is not to say I'm not going out shopping for more money.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: I was wondering why public health is covering it and not the office of the disabilities accounts.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: The Office for Disability Issues paid for a project that just wrapped up, part of which was building a working group. They paid for a portion of it, but it finished or closed on March 31, I guess. We'll be going back to ODI to seek funding to continue, because we really just got a portion of the funding from public health.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: You mentioned little bumps along the way. Can you tell us more about some of those bumps and what you ran into? I'd appreciate that.

    Ms. Leesa Kopansky: Please let me speak to this, because it's been new for me. Again, I was just thrilled to be part of it. It was a huge learning experience for everybody. I deal with physical barrier issues all the time, but I had no idea what a person who can't hear needs to deal with and what a person who is blind has to deal with when simply going to the theatre to see a film. I've learned so much, and it's been fantastic. I think we've come together as working group, knowing that we all share the same desire, which is equality in getting to see a film. That was just a whole learning process, an amazing one, and I've been loving it.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: I was the one who raised the bumps. When we got a group together and were looking for criteria for membership, it was difficult to identify who was going to be able to sign to say that a person was disabled. We went round in circles. We're the Canadian Paraplegic Association, but we have members who are able-bodied. I could be a member. We couldn't say that any member could have this card. We're trying not to sabotage ourselves on this. You had to give a lot of thought to the approval and the authority process. We had to go back to the drawing board a few times.

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    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: We did. It was a group of diverse people who had specific agendas and had a responsibility to their constituencies, but we had to come up with a vehicle to move forward. We had to agree on a common agenda. We had political issues. We had language. We had logistical implications. It was a national program. We wanted to maintain the integrity of the program. We wanted to reach as many people as possible, so coming to a consensus and moving forward was challenging.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: When I learned about it, I was reading about Quebec. Quebec has a program where people can go to hockey games and everything. That's why I wanted you to come so badly. I think the program in Quebec is outstanding, and I'd like to see this in every entertainment venue, not just theatres.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: It's interesting you would say that. That's exactly it. First of all, when we put this together it was a pilot; we weren't sure. At the end of it, we thought it was a great idea. It was working well, and we wanted to move forward. I discovered the group in Quebec, the companion sticker program. It's our plan to contact them and ask them to sit at the table, to find a way to work together. It is very interesting that we got the call. They were on the radar, but not part of the initial planning.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: This was by happenstance. It goes back to a phone call—the Famous Players Theatres calling the Canadian Paraplegic Association. They were getting very bad press about starting to charge for their cards. They were being inundated with calls. They were concerned about how they could fix it, so they came to us. That was the beginning of the whole relationship.

    One point a lot of people don't appreciate is that 60% of people with physical disabilities are unemployed. This is something we're trying to fix, as organizations. In the meantime, they can't be disenfranchised by not being able to go and enjoy a movie. Nobody realizes that something as simple as not being able to carry your own popcorn can be a real issue, and not being able to go to the washroom. The card is making that possible.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: I'd like to ask a question on this companion sticker program. When you said you found it to be an excellent program, were you seeing a marrying or merging of the two?

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: I'd like to see the card used and recognized right across the whole system. Can you tell me your natural, historic sites?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: The movie theatre was the pilot. We got the money from Health Canada to work together to expand it. Our goal is to see it everywhere. We're looking at cultural, recreational, and leisure opportunities across the board— museums, galleries, theme parks, everything.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: I could see a lot of rich hockey players handing them out quite nicely.

    I really appreciate your working with business. That is a wonderful way. A lot of businesses benefit very much from people with disabilities, and the more we work hand in hand with them, the better.

    I want to commend you. I am so glad we have you here today. I'd also like to thank Quebec, because I read about it in one of the Quebec newspapers.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: I wanted to add something having to do with business. The key person behind this is Nuria Bronfman. She's the vice-president of corporate affairs at Famous Players Theatres, and she showed tremendous leadership. They had difficulty in the community, and it was her initiative that led to this. She came to the community and said, “No, we need to consult; we need to find out. Let's not do a top-down.” With that initial meeting, this grew.

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    Mrs. Carol Skelton: Are you finding many places that you can't get into, such as theatres? Are some of the older theatres having to do a lot of renovations?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Do you mean in terms of physical accessibility?

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: Yes.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: I think there still are some challenges in theatres in terms of where you can sit. We had an issue with one of our members from Quebec on where they have to sit in the theatres, even with the card. There are some issues.

    I wanted to mention that we heard something at one of our last meetings that made us chuckle. We were talking about expanding. You had mentioned museums. Well, one of the museums suggested that we should not do that, because when you go to a museum, it's not entertainment. The next time you go to a museum, remember that you're not being entertained; you're being educated.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: So you can't go under the spider and look up at the nest of the eggs.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: No.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: The accessibility issue is interesting. Three weeks ago I was touring some of our facilities in Saskatoon and talking to some of the clients. They said it's so hard to go out for entertainment. At that time, I didn't ask them whether they had their cards. I will go back and ask them, so be ready for some more applications.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Oh, good.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: I would like you to be put on notice that if you want to start something that will really benefit all people with disabilities, especially physical disabilities, you could start working on the restaurant industry.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: We found that out last night. We wanted to go out for dinner with Mr. Fletcher. He didn't have access to the first three restaurants we mentioned. We deal with it every day, and he deals with it every day. We're very familiar with it.

    Ms. Leesa Kopansky: If I may address your question on accessibility issues, as a person with a disability, on many levels, I'm an advocate specifically for removing barriers.

    You're probably well aware that the Ontarians with Disabilities Act has passed. As a person with a disability, that's great. But if you don't live in Ontario, then you're not benefiting from that.

    This should be a guide for federal law. You might want to mention that.

    Thank you.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: Can I follow up on that?

    The Chair: You can in the next round.

    Monsieur Vincent.

[Translation]

    Mr. Robert Vincent (Shefford, BQ): Thank you for coming. I know you have worked very hard to get to where you are now. You must have spent a lot of time and energy organizing all that. Coming from Quebec, I can understand you to a certain extent. In Quebec, people with disabilities are a bit luckier than elsewhere in Canada. Actions have been taken everywhere they want to go. Under the law, all premises must be accessible to them. I hope, as you have mentioned earlier, that it will spread to the rest of Canada. I think it is important that people with disabilities have the same quality of life as the others. Keep on the good work. If you need anything, I am sure the committee will be happy to try and help you.

[English]

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Thank you.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Thank you.

    The Chair: Is it my turn? All right.

    When we think about this system, there was a time when many organizations, on a voluntary basis, essentially gave the person accompanying someone who needed assistance with a wheelchair, or something like that, some kind of complimentary recognition and that kind of thing. Is that the reason why the pass is always carried by the person who has the disability as opposed to transferring it to someone else?

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    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Absolutely. Your attendant could change, and it's the person with the disability who's entitled to the service. The attendant could be somebody hired, or could be a family member for that day. It could change.

    The card is valid for five years. That's the time we put on it. We ask people to reapply at the five-year mark.

    The Chair: That would eliminate, then, any attempt there might be for any type of potential abuse, if there is such a thing.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Exactly. They're all identified by number, with a bar code, so there is a mechanism to track. The theatres will conduct random audits from time to time.

    The Chair: You mentioned the Ontarians with Disabilities Act as an exercise in getting something achieved. The disability groups in Thunder Bay, when I was mayor, actually formed several sets of round tables so that all were invited. It became very clear, when I asked what the priority was, that it was for an Ontario disabilities act. Indeed, that went from those workshops...as mayor, to council, then to a regional group, called the Northwestern Ontario Municipal Association, and then to the parent body, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. When the act was passed in its first stages a couple of years ago, we were invited to be there.

    So it was an interesting case study on how you proceed that way. During my nomination for this office, the same groups got together, and of course a major part of our platform was a national disabilities act. I'm pleased to say that this continues to be front and foremost.

    Ms. Leesa Kopansky: Thank you.

    The Chair: We thank you for raising it, actually.

    Are any of you familiar with the program in Quebec?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: The companion sticker program?

    The Chair: Yes.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Very cursorily. I did a little bit of very preliminary research on it, just some website stuff. I understand it's for leisure programs in Quebec. We haven't contacted any of the partners yet, or had any conversation. It's actually on the agenda for this summer.

    The Chair: Okay. Thank you for that.

    Ms. Skelton, please.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: I just want to add to Mr. Boshcoff's remarks that when we had our national convention this year in Montreal, that became our policy too, to have a national disability act. So I want to tell you that.

    I have a question here on your application. Your card is good for five years?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Right.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: Something we've learned at this committee is that when a person goes to apply for their disability benefits and everything, it varies, but it's sometimes two years. Groups are saying this is a problem.

    How did you arrive at the five-year date?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: It can be cumbersome getting yourself authorized. You have to go see your service provider, or your doctor, or whatever. People move, and things change. The card is intended for somebody with a permanent disability, so theoretically your status doesn't change. We thought the five-year mark allowed enough time for people to not have to be bothered with the logistics of it but also enough time just to weed out any cases where there might be issues of fraud.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: And you don't have someone in your office, as there would be in a government program, say, to go over a form that has been filled out by a doctor to perhaps indicate that, no, this person is not eligible?

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: We do. We do have quality assurance. We look at it to see if it meets the criteria of the application, to see if the person has the appropriate credentials, etc.

    We have yet to see how successful that is, I guess.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Maybe good faith is overrated, but we are depending on people to.... We don't think a lot of people, in the audience we're going to, our clients and our members, will be applying for the card unless they're eligible for it. We find it hard to think they would.

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    Mrs. Carol Skelton: That's my feeling as well.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: It's a pretty big step, a pretty big leap. And we are marketing to a particular audience too--namely, our members.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: We've built in some checks and balances, not the least of which is the theatre, which can make an assessment at the time. If they question the validity, then we would do a check, etc.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: It's very hard for a person to lie, shall we say, at a level of something like that.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Mr. Vincent.

    Mr. Robert Vincent: Are your organizations working at the national, regional or provincial level?

[English]

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: They're all national.

[Translation]

    Mr. Robert Vincent: I know some organizations work at the provincial and, especially, municipal levels. The cities have adopted those programs, and the municipal recreation comittees contribute money. With the industry and the business people, they form a synergy so that those accompanying people with disabilities can go and watch hockey or baseball games, or any other sport. I know that, in my area, everything is included at the municipal level. I don't know if it could interest you. I think every city should integrate that organization.

[English]

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: I think it's an excellent idea.

    One of the challenges has been capacity, just making sure we have the staff to actually do this and to dedicate to it. Now that we know we're going to be around at least for another year to do it, we'll definitely be pursuing it. One of our goals is also to look at sustainable funding to keep this going, because we don't have that at this point. That's a key objective for us.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: The other thing is that right now we represent national organizations, and the first representation we'll make will be to the federal government; we're working at that level. We do have provincial organizations that will work at that level, with the provincial, and it works its way down. We're trying to take the highest level, where we can have the biggest impact, and it's committees like this we're hoping will make some changes nationally to the disability act or create an act that will ensure there are no limits for all people with disabilities.

    The Chair: Thank you very much. This was a very productive session. We very much appreciate your coming to see us.

    Mrs. Carol Skelton: I would really encourage you to look at the National Football League, the hockey teams, and anything in professional sports. I think it would be ideal to partner with them, any of the sports organizations...and anything we can do. I just encourage you to go full speed ahead, and I wish you nothing but the very best.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Thank you.

    Could I just ask a question in terms of process? There have been some really terrific ideas here. I would really love the opportunity to follow up on some of those ideas and maybe have a longer chat. What would be the best way for us to do that?

    The Chair: Well, this committee will set another series of goals and objectives for the fall session.

    This term is kind of unusual because our goal this time was to see how members of Parliament, the offices of Parliament, the offices of the MPs, and the governmental offices could be made more accessible not only physically but information-wise. We can only set so many tasks in terms of achievability. Certainly, the type of issue you have raised would be something we would consider for our fall work plan. We have had several other ideas also.

    We'd like to wrap this up in the next couple of weeks and see if we can make sure every member of Parliament and every governmental office is doing the right things front of mind for inclusion and accessibility.

º  (1615)  

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Do you have a timetable you're working with in terms of the recommendations that have been made, and to what body do you make those recommendations? How does it roll out with all the hearings you're having here?

    The Chair: We will present a report in the next month or so with our findings and recommendations. The main committee will get them, as we are a subcommittee.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Will we have access to that information?

    The Chair: It's absolutely public, so yes.

    Ms. Linda McGreevy: Thank you.

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    Ms. Vanessa Pfaff: Thank you so very much for giving us the opportunity.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    We're going to suspend the meeting and go in camera to discuss some other things.

    [Proceedings continue in camera]