PACC Committee Meeting

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in a televised session at 9:10 a.m. this day, in Room 237-C Centre Block, the Chair, John Williams, presiding.

Vic Toews moved that the Committee report to the House as follows:

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts has the honour to present its

FOURTH REPORT

On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, the Honourable Member for Toronto-Danforth, Mr. Dennis Mills, revealed to CBC Newsworld a portion of the in camera testimony given by Mr. Charles Guité to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on July 9, 2002.

The members of the Committee considered the matter on March 31, 2004 and April 1st, 2004 and felt that their privileges had been breached and that the in camera process had been jeopardized because of the disclosure by the Member for Toronto-Danforth.

As a result of the action of the Honourable Member for Toronto-Danforth, the Committee adopted a motion to report this matter to the House.

Your Committee feels it is its duty to place these matters before the House at this time because privilege may be involved and to give the House an opportunity to reflect on these matters.

A copy of the relevant Minutes of Proceedings and Evidence (Meetings Nos. 18 and 19) is tabled.

The question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division:YEAS: Diane Ablonczy, Odina Desrochers, Michel Gauthier, Jason Kenney, Vic Toews, Judy Wasylycia-Leis — 6; NAYS: Marlene Jennings, Joe Jordan, Walt Lastewka, Dominic LeBlanc, Dennis Mills, Shawn Murphy, Beth Phinney, Robert Thibault, Alan Tonks — 9.

The Committee resumed consideration of the motion of Marlene Jennings, — That, pursuant to its study of Chapters 3, 4 and 5 of the Auditor General’s November 2003 Report referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, this Committee do, in accordance with Mr. Guité’s decision to waive the confidentiality of the in camera hearings wherein he testified in 2002, immediately render his 2002 in camera testimony public and modify the summons so as to change the date of appearance from April 1, 2004 to April 22 and 23, 2004.

The debate continued.

Jason Kenney moved, — That the motion be amended by replacing the words “immediately render his 2002 in camera testimony public ” with the words “render his 2002 in camera testimony public on the day that Mr. Guité appears before the Committee”.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Jason Kenney and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Diane Ablonczy, Odina Desrochers, Michel Gauthier, Jason Kenney, Gary Lunn, Vic Toews, Judy Wasylycia-Leis — 7; NAYS: Marlene Jennings, Joe Jordan, Walt Lastewka, Dominic LeBlanc, Dennis Mills, Shawn Murphy, Beth Phinney, Robert Thibault, Alan Tonks — 9.

The Committee resumed consideration of the motion of Marlene Jennings, — That, pursuant to its study of Chapters 3, 4 and 5 of the Auditor General’s November 2003 Report referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, this Committee do, in accordance with Mr. Guité’s decision to waive the confidentiality of the in camera hearings wherein he testified in 2002, immediately render his 2002 in camera testimony public and modify the summons so as to change the date of appearance from April 1, 2004 to April 22 and 23, 2004.

At 10:03 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 10:04 a.m., the sitting resumed.

At 10:04 a.m., Beth Phinney took the Chair.

At 10:12 a.m., John Williams took the Chair.

At 10:25 a.m., Beth Phinney took the Chair.

At 10:30 a.m., John Williams took the Chair.

RULING BY THE CHAIR

The Chair ruled that although debate would continue on the motion, the decision would be deferred until such time as the Speaker has rendered his decision regarding the power to release the in camera testimony of July 9, 2002 of Charles Guité.

At 10:42 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 10:51 a.m., the sitting resumed.

The question: "Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained?" was put and was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Diane Ablonczy, Bernard Bigras, Odina Desrochers, Jason Kenney, Peter MacKay, Vic Toews, Judy Wasylycia-Leis — 7; NAYS: Marlene Jennings, Joe Jordan, Walt Lastewka, Dominic LeBlanc, Dennis Mills, Shawn Murphy, Beth Phinney, Robert Thibault, Alan Tonks — 9.

Accordingly, the decision of the Chair was overruled.

The Committee resumed consideration of the motion of Marlene Jennings, — That, pursuant to its study of Chapters 3, 4 and 5 of the Auditor General’s November 2003 Report referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, this Committee do, in accordance with Mr. Guité’s decision to waive the confidentiality of the in camera hearings wherein he testified in 2002, immediately render his 2002 in camera testimony public and modify the summons so as to change the date of appearance from April 1, 2004 to April 22 and 23, 2004.

The debate continued.

Judy Wasylycia-Leis moved, — That the debate be now adjourned.

The question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division:YEAS: Diane Ablonczy, Odina Desrochers, Jason Kenney, Peter MacKay, Vic Toews, Judy Wasylycia-Leis — 6; NAYS: Marlene Jennings, Joe Jordan, Walt Lastewka, Dominic LeBlanc, Dennis Mills, Shawn Murphy, Beth Phinney, Robert Thibault, Alan Tonks — 9.

The Committee resumed consideration of the motion of Marlene Jennings, — That, pursuant to its study of Chapters 3, 4 and 5 of the Auditor General’s November 2003 Report referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, this Committee do, in accordance with Mr. Guité’s decision to waive the confidentiality of the in camera hearings wherein he testified in 2002, immediately render his 2002 in camera testimony public and modify the summons so as to change the date of appearance from April 1, 2004 to April 22 and 23, 2004.

The debate continued.

At 11:22 a.m., Beth Phinney took the Chair.

At 11:26 a.m., John Williams took the Chair.

The question was put on the motion and it was agreed to on the following recorded division: YEAS: Marlene Jennings, Joe Jordan, Walt Lastewka, Dominic LeBlanc, Dennis Mills, Shawn Murphy, Beth Phinney, Robert Thibault, Alan Tonks — 9; NAYS: Diane Ablonczy, Bernard Bigras, Odina Desrochers, Jason Kenney, Peter MacKay, Vic Toews, Judy Wasylycia-Leis — 7.

RULING BY THE CHAIR

The Chair ruled that the transcript would not be released until such time as the Speaker has rendered his decision regarding the Committee's power to release the in camera testimony of Charles Guité.

The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Diane Ablonczy, Bernard Bigras, Odina Desrochers, Jason Kenney, Peter MacKay, Vic Toews, Judy Wasylycia-Leis — 7; NAYS: Marlene Jennings, Joe Jordan, Walt Lastewka, Dominic LeBlanc, Dennis Mills, Shawn Murphy, Beth Phinney, Robert Thibault, Alan Tonks — 9.

Marlene Jennings moved, — That, pursuant to its study of Chapters 3, 4 and 5 of the Auditor General’s November 2003 Report referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, that this Committee when hearing witnesses shall conduct the questioning as follows, i.e. a first round of eight (8) minutes per member, alternating from one opposition member to one government member back to one opposition member and so on until all members have been afforded an eight (8) minute round; only then shall a second round of four (4) minutes per member, again alternating from an opposition member to a government member, begin and continue until all members have been afforded a four (4) minute round; any and all subsequent rounds of questions, regardless of length of time allotted to a member, shall follow the same procedure; and

That the Chair shall only be afforded one round of questions not to exceed four (4) minutes, and that said round may be conducted either prior to the first eight (8) minute round or at the very end of any round.

The Chair ruled the final paragraph out of order on the grounds that time limits for the Chair is out of order.

The debate continued.

Jason Kenney moved, — That the motion be amended by deleting the following words:

“alternating from one opposition member to one government member back to one opposition member and so on ”

“again alternating from an opposition member to a government member”

“Any and all subsequent rounds of questions, regardless of length of time allotted to a member, shall follow the same procedure”.

By unanimous consent, it was agreed, — That the amendments proposed by Jason Kenney be debated together.

The Committee resumed consideration of the motion of Jason Kenney, — That the motion be amended by deleting the following words:

“alternating from one opposition member to one government member back to one opposition member and so on ”

“again alternating from an opposition member to a government member”

“Any and all subsequent rounds of questions, regardless of length of time allotted to a member, shall follow the same procedure”.

The debate continued.

Odina Desrochers moved, — That the motion be deferred to the Steering Committee.

The question was put on the motion and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 9; NAYS: 2.

Marlene Jennings moved, — That in addition to the meeting dates already scheduled, the Committee meet as follows in regard to its study of Chapters 3, 4 and 5 of the Auditor General’s November 2003 Report:

Monday, April 19, 2004, from 11:00 am to 1:00pm and 3:30 pm to 5:30 pm for the sole purpose of hearing witnesses;

Tuesday, April 20, 2004, from 3:30 pm to 5:30 pm for the sole purpose of hearing witnesses;

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 at 3:30 pm for the sole purpose of considering the second draft of its interim report;

Thursday, April 22, 2004 from 3:30 pm to 5:30 pm;

Friday, April 23, 2004 from 9:00 am to 1:00 pm;

Monday, April 26, 2004 from 11:00 to 1:00 pm; and,

Monday, April 26, 2004 at 3:30 pm for the sole purpose of considering and adopting its interim report.

Debate arose thereon.

Marlene Jennings moved, — That the motion be amended by deleting the words “for the sole purpose of hearing witnesses”.

By unanimous consent, the motion was withdrawn.

At 12:59 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.